Another simple question for Jafar!!!

[Nukeman]

Here is another "SIMPLE" question for Jafar. Since in another thread it was posed that we should just ask straight simple questions.

Why do Islamic countries condone the FORCED CONVERSION of Christians to the Islamic faith, also why is that if ONE parent converts to Islam any susequent children must convert to Islam.

I also have not seen your answer to Jimmy about apostasy.


In Islam, apostasy is called "ridda" ("turning back") and it is considered by Muslims to be a profound insult to God. A person born of Muslim parents that rejects Islam is called a "murtad fitri" (natural apostate), and a person that converted to Islam and later rejects the religion is called a "murtad milli" (apostate from the community).

The question of the penalties imposed in Islam (i.e. in the Qur'an or under shariah law) for apostasy is a highly controversial topic that is passionately debated by various scholars. On this basis, according to most scholars, if a Muslim consciously and without coercion declares their rejection of Islam and does not change their mind after the time given to him/her by a judge for research, then the penalty for male apostates is the death penalty, or, for women, life imprisonment. However, this view has been rejected by an extremely small minority of modern Muslim scholars I like the small minority(eg Hasan al-Turabi), who argues that the hadith in question should be taken to apply only to political betrayal of the Muslim community, rather than to apostasy in general.[


These are very simple questions about a faith you profess to follow. I also dont want your patent answer that "tese people aren't real Muslims" That my friend is a crock af shit and you know it. If they aren't true Muslims than why do sooo many follow these paths????

Here's one link.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57530


Headlines this week reported that Migsti Haile, a 33-year-old Christian woman, was tortured to death in Eritrea for refusing to recant her faith, and the European Center for Law and Justice is asking the United Nations to address what it described as the growing problem of forced religious conversions around the world.

"We had been getting notification from lawyers and human rights groups that this issue was growing, and we thought it was high time that the United Nations address it," Jay Sekulow, chief counsel for the ECLJ as well as the organization's U.S. affiliate, the American Center for Law and Justice, told WND.

He said the problem is not necessarily always national governments, but local governments and area factions, which are "putting pressure" on people and "threatening people with up to death if they don't renounce their conversion to Christianity."

[jafar00]

Here is another "SIMPLE" question for Jafar. Since in another thread it was posed that we should just ask straight simple questions.

Why do Islamic countries condone the FORCED CONVERSION of Christians to the Islamic faith,

Forced conversion is something that is not allowed nor encouraged in Islam.


There is no compulsion in religion 2:256


And say to My servants (that) they speak that which is best; surely the Shaitan sows dissensions among them; surely the Shaitan is an open enemy to man.
Your Lord knows you best; He will have mercy on you if He pleases, or He will chastise you if He pleases; and We have not sent you as being in charge of them. 17:53-54


And obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn back, then upon Our Messenger devolves only the clear delivery (of the message). 64:12


And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve 18:29


You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion. 109:6

And so on...
No forced conversions. If they have a law that requires it, it is their own doing. It has nothing to do with Islam.


also why is that if ONE parent converts to Islam any susequent children must convert to Islam.

In Islam, the children are required to be raised in the religion of their father.



I also have not seen your answer to Jimmy about apostasy.

See my answer about forced conversion. If there is a death penalty ordered for leaving Islam, then it is a man made law. It is not in the Qur'aan. The only way you can prescribe the death penalty for Apostacy under Shariah Law is if the Apostacy is combined with treason. It's the treason which carries the death penalty.

[Nukeman]

I gotta say you didn't answer a f***ing thing!!!!! You can quote the Koran all you want but what I am asking you is

WHERE IS ALL OF THIS OUTCRY AGAINST FOLLOWERS OF YOUR FAITH DOINg THESE THINGS IN YOUR RELIGIONS NAME.

Dont quote me a couple of speeches because your religion sure as hell was able to organize mass protest for the Mohamod cartoons (in many countries I might add). I have to say if your that thinned skinned that you cant honestly take it in stride you really shouldn't be playing with the rest of the world..

Spare me the Christians get bent out of shape rhetoric as well because you know full well how Christians, Jew's, Hindu's Bhuddist, and so on are treated in Islamic countries!!! When Islamist come to a free country they want to practice their religin freely without persecution yet you dont follow that in your own countries do you!!! You will also begin to demand that people of other faiths, when areound you, start to respect everything you do in yor day to day lives and force YOUR more's and values on them... Why is that??

When a crackpot Christian fringe bastardizes the bible they are very quickley denounced as "nut balls" and not representing the Christian faith.

Yet country after country that profess to follow the path of Islam continue to subjugate their women and children, they continue to allow forced conversion in the name of Islam, they continue to proscribe the death penalty for apostasy, etc.... etc..... I think you see what I mean..

You never did answer in another thread why a male child of the the ripe old age of 5 carries more wait than a woman in the eyes of Muslim men??

Why does a woman have to have such a large number of witnesses to outweigh one man??

Why are women forced to cover up from head to toe yet men aren't required to do the same (if Muslim men can't control themselves around women, than that my friend is a failing on their part not the womans)?

Your religion has 1.5 billion followers yet none of you seem to follow the same path. you really should take a small que from the other religions of the world and establish some sort of standard doctrine instead of leaving everything up to "whoever seems to be in charge at your mosque"


DONT QUOTE THE KORAN ANSWER THE QUESTIONS AS A PERSON WOULD WITH YOUR OWN REASONING AND RATIONAL!!

[glockmail]

Forced conversion is something that is not allowed nor encouraged in Islam.......In Islam, the children are required to be raised in the religion of their father....... Am I the only one that sees the inconsistency here?

[jimnyc]

Am I the only one that sees the inconsistency here?

I give up on Jafar. Only good Muslims represent his religion. Anyone doing bad is no longer a Muslim. Therefore in his mind, ALL Muslims are good people. Yet if he counter with an argument as I have in a few threads you might still be waiting a week later for answers.

If there were so many Muslims, that really aren't Muslims because they are "bad", then why don't we hear an outcry against them from the Muslim community? Why haven't the leaders went national to explain their position to the world?

Oh, that's right, OBL just did that! Funny how a man in a cave in the middle of nowhere can reach out to the world, but no other leader in the entire Muslim community can do the same.

[Nukeman]

Am I the only one that sees the inconsistency here?
Dont yaa know they aren't real Muslims cause they aren't "good"
What a bunch of horse shit!!!!!!

[diuretic]

A question for those who are running this criticism of Islam all over the forums.

If the Qu'ran expressly forbids something to be done (and remembering that the Qu'ran is the revealed word of God) and some Muslims in fact do it, doesn't it fault them and not their religion?

[glockmail]

A question for those who are running this criticism of Islam all over the forums.

If the Qu'ran expressly forbids something to be done (and remembering that the Qu'ran is the revealed word of God) and some Muslims in fact do it, doesn't it fault them and not their religion?
Jafar is just setting up a strawman, or attempting to. The fact is that a reasonable interpretation of the Koran reveals all kinds of violence towards non-muslims.

[Nukeman]

A question for those who are running this criticism of Islam all over the forums.

If the Qu'ran expressly forbids something to be done (and remembering that the Qu'ran is the revealed word of God) and some Muslims in fact do it, doesn't it fault them and not their religion?You know its one thing for the Koran to "forbid" something its another as to how these so called Muslim interpret their own holy book.

This is the crux of the problem they have too many interpretations thay dont have a set doctrine to follow. So in essence they are following the book as they see fit.

It would be one thing if it was an occasional nut job out there but your talking whole countries, governments, cities, towns, and villages.

Where is the Huge outcry when these things are done in the name of their religion?? They sure as hell mobilized around the world when a few pictures turned up of their Profit.

On the issue of the cartoons of Muhamod I will point out another hypocracy in the Muslim way of thinking. It has been shown that in almost any market or bazarr in the Mid-east one can purchase a portriat of the Profit Muhamod yet we have days of rioting with hundreds of thousands calling for punishment of a few cartoonist. Do you not see the Hypocracy in all of this????

Jafar can quote all the passages in the Koran he wants, but untill he and others like him stop condoning and start condemning these people and their type of behaviour I will have little to no repect for them...

[retiredman]

Jafar is just setting up a strawman, or attempting to. The fact is that a reasonable interpretation of the Koran reveals all kinds of violence towards non-muslims.


Have you read the Old Testament recently?

[glockmail]

Have you read the Old Testament recently? Every Sunday. :lame2:

[retiredman]

Every Sunday. :lame2:


did you happen to miss the violence contained therein?

[glockmail]

did you happen to miss the violence contained therein? Did you happen to miss that Christ fullfilled the Scriptures, and His New Covenant? Duh.

[Monkeybone]

so i shouldn't shave my side burns either since it is in the old testament?

does the Koran have a new and an old or is it just one book?

[jafar00]

DONT QUOTE THE KORAN ANSWER THE QUESTIONS AS A PERSON WOULD WITH YOUR OWN REASONING AND RATIONAL!!

Islam is the Qur'aan. How can I answer a question about Islam without referring to the Qur'aan?

I can give you an opinion, but would you then shout at me again because I didn't provide any proofs?

There is no point is there? You have your mind made up already. There is nothing I can say to change it is there?


Funny how a man in a cave in the middle of nowhere can reach out to the world, but no other leader in the entire Muslim community can do the same.

Perhaps you should tell your government and media to stop giving him the kind of publicity that no amount of money can buy in the real world. I'm sure he appreciates the enormous amount of assistance he is getting from you guys, but is it really helping your own cause at all apart from keeping the fear levels up enough so people will give up all of their rights to feel safe again and the govt can pass more laws to keep control of you?


Jafar is just setting up a strawman, or attempting to. The fact is that a reasonable interpretation of the Koran reveals all kinds of violence towards non-muslims.

When taken in, or out of context? When it's read by those with no idea what they are reading, it does seem a little strange in parts. That's why we have teachers and we read it in the original Arabic. :/


so i shouldn't shave my side burns either since it is in the old testament?

does the Koran have a new and an old or is it just one book?

The Qur'aan is one book and it hasn't been changed, revised, or otherwise tampered with since revelation.

[Nukeman]

The main question still stands

HOW CAN YOU STAND BY AND LET OTHERS DO THINGS IN THE NAME OF ISLAM AND NOT BE OFFENDED AND MAKE EXCUSES FOR THE WAY THEY ACT.

I WOULD BE PISSED!!!!

HOW CAN YOU ORGANIZE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS FOR A FEW CARTOON YET YOU CANT ORGANSE A FEW HUNDRED FOR SUCIDE BOMBINGS, APOSTASY, SUBJUGATING OF WOMEN.... ETC.....


I'm still waiting. These questions do not require a qoute from the Koran these are questions posed to you as to why you're willing to put up with type of bahavior by people who profess to follow your religion..


As I expected you really dont have an answer you will continue to blindly follow your religious leader instead of having independent thought....

[darin]

If it's wrong to quote scripture, out of context, to attack a faith (as MFM does consistently), I'd bet it's equally bad to use out-of-context scripture to defend one's faith. Jafar, Maybe instead of one-or-two line quotes from your scripture, explain the quotes with context. When MFM and his ilk pull stuff out of the Old Testament, in the bible, I don't attempt to one-line them, but try to explain the CONTEXT surrounding the stuff he's using to attack the faith. Of coruse, sometimes they BEG for one-line replies elsewhere in scripture, which is stupid, because the bible doesn't (and I'm sure your book doesnt) go around trying to defend itself elsewhere.

Here's one thing I think I understand about the Quran. If I recall, the author's (authors?) intent was to draft scripture. Am I right? The bible was never written to BE a bible, per se, if I recall.

[jimnyc]

Perhaps you should tell your government and media to stop giving him the kind of publicity that no amount of money can buy in the real world. I'm sure he appreciates the enormous amount of assistance he is getting from you guys, but is it really helping your own cause at all apart from keeping the fear levels up enough so people will give up all of their rights to feel safe again and the govt can pass more laws to keep control of you?

Are you now going on record as saying that the Muslim leaders have in fact reached out internationally to the issues at hand, but that the media has not covered the issue? And if you aren't, can you please explain why they haven't reached out internationally like they did when they were upset with little cartoons? I'm asking here because we had a similar conversation in another thread and you failed to respond to my last post to you. There have been continued terrorist attacks since 9/11 and the Muslim world is taking the heat and blame as a result. You state this is not what "true Islam" believes in, but for some odd reason I don't see the Muslim leaders trying to reach out and discuss with the world and have people better understand their intent.

Oh, and whatever control the government has over me hasn't changed in the slightest bit since 9/11, probably because I'm not a terrorist or a supporter of them

[Abbey Marie]

You must be kidding. The liberal MSM in this country would bend over backwards to air the words of any Muslim distancing himself from the hatred and violence. The fact is, the words aren't broadcast because they aren't uttered.

[glockmail]

....When taken in, or out of context? When it's read by those with no idea what they are reading, it does seem a little strange in parts. That's why we have teachers and we read it in the original Arabic. :/
... .

Sorry but I can't read arabic.:lame2:

Your own avatar depicts violence towards non-muslims. Are you seriously suggesting that the Koran doesn't teach this?

[diuretic]

Jafar is just setting up a strawman, or attempting to. The fact is that a reasonable interpretation of the Koran reveals all kinds of violence towards non-muslims.

I did read an academic's website where he took apart the arguments that the Qu'ran advocated death for apostates and other related issues. I'm not sure of the approach used in reading (as in hermeneutics or some other form of analysis such as exegesis) the Qu'ran but apparently the Hadith has a role as well. I'm not knowledgeable on the topic but I do know I'm not informed enough to make judgements.

[diuretic]

You must be kidding. The liberal MSM in this country would bend over backwards to air the words of any Muslim distancing himself from the hatred and violence. The fact is, the words aren't broadcast because they aren't uttered.

:laugh2: The liberal MSM, I keep reading that, it's funny! Your media is so right wing it's not funny (so why am I laughing I wonder? :D)

Now, is it really the case that if the media isn't reporting something then it's not happening? Abbey..........you don't mean that do you???? :coffee:

[glockmail]

I did read an academic's website where he took apart the arguments that the Qu'ran advocated death for apostates and other related issues. I'm not sure of the approach used in reading (as in hermeneutics or some other form of analysis such as exegesis) the Qu'ran but apparently the Hadith has a role as well. I'm not knowledgeable on the topic but I do know I'm not informed enough to make judgements. If the Koran was written with consistency and correctness we wouldn't need scholarly translations. Why would God write such a messed up book? answer: He didn't.

[Abbey Marie]

:laugh2: The liberal MSM, I keep reading that, it's funny! Your media is so right wing it's not funny (so why am I laughing I wonder? :D)

Now, is it really the case that if the media isn't reporting something then it's not happening? Abbey..........you don't mean that do you???? :coffee:

D, you have no idea what you are saying, my friend. Read Bernie Goldberg's book Bias, then get back to us.

[jafar00]

If it's wrong to quote scripture, out of context, to attack a faith (as MFM does consistently), I'd bet it's equally bad to use out-of-context scripture to defend one's faith. Jafar, Maybe instead of one-or-two line quotes from your scripture, explain the quotes with context. When MFM and his ilk pull stuff out of the Old Testament, in the bible, I don't attempt to one-line them, but try to explain the CONTEXT surrounding the stuff he's using to attack the faith. Of coruse, sometimes they BEG for one-line replies elsewhere in scripture, which is stupid, because the bible doesn't (and I'm sure your book doesnt) go around trying to defend itself elsewhere.


I do explain the context where the meaning is not apparent and have done at length in other posts. The last ayats I posted in this thread were quite clear about the fact that forcing faith upon someone is wrong.



Here's one thing I think I understand about the Quran. If I recall, the author's (authors?) intent was to draft scripture. Am I right? The bible was never written to BE a bible, per se, if I recall.

The Author, "God" intended for the Qur'aan to be faithfully recorded and protected from being altered and such is the way it has remained from revelation up until now. You cannot say the same about the bible which is an odd collection of stuff gathered up over several centuries.

[diuretic]

If the Koran was written with consistency and correctness we wouldn't need scholarly translations. Why would God write such a messed up book? answer: He didn't.

For the record I don't believe any of it. I don't believe that the Bible contains the Word of God. I don't believe in a deity. So I'm pretty impartial in this discussion. I wasn't attempting to validate the Qu'ran or Islam, merely asking questions without answering them myself.

[AFbombloader]

Islam is the Qur'aan. How can I answer a question about Islam without referring to the Qur'aan?

I can give you an opinion, but would you then shout at me again because I didn't provide any proofs?

There is no point is there? You have your mind made up already. There is nothing I can say to change it is there?



Perhaps you should tell your government and media to stop giving him the kind of publicity that no amount of money can buy in the real world. I'm sure he appreciates the enormous amount of assistance he is getting from you guys, but is it really helping your own cause at all apart from keeping the fear levels up enough so people will give up all of their rights to feel safe again and the govt can pass more laws to keep control of you?



When taken in, or out of context? When it's read by those with no idea what they are reading, it does seem a little strange in parts. That's why we have teachers and we read it in the original Arabic. :/

Do you read it in the original Arabic? Or do you trust your Imam to tell you what he is reading?


The Qur'aan is one book and it hasn't been changed, revised, or otherwise tampered with since revelation.

I'll raise the bs flag on that! :bsflag: Any book that has been transcribed from one language to another has been revised. There are words and phrases that cannot be perfectly represented.

I have been to the motherland of Islam and have lived there for months on end. It is illegal to be any other religion in Saudi Arabia. You will be arrested for being a Christian.

[diuretic]

I have to say, I've never been to Saudi Arabia but from what I know I despise the rulers. I was in the UK for a visit back in the 1980s when there was a fuss about a Saudi "princess" who was executed in public for some sort of religious offence. The papers there were full of outrage. And the British government tut-tutted and continued to sell billions of pounds in arms to the House of Saud.

F/ing hypocrit Brit govt. As for the Sauds - corrupt bastards who get on the piss and bang whores when they're hanging about the fleshpots of Europe. But oh so pious back in Saudi Arabia. Hypocritical bastards.

[Trigg]

:laugh2: The liberal MSM, I keep reading that, it's funny! Your media is so right wing it's not funny (so why am I laughing I wonder? :D)

The only MSM that even comes close to the conservative viewpoint is Fox.

Everyone else is so liberal it's sickening.

What media of ours are you getting in Australia????????????

[AFbombloader]

The only MSM that even comes close to the conservative viewpoint is Fox.

Everyone else is so liberal it's sickening.

What media of ours are you getting in Australia????????????

I'm sure all they get from the US is the Clinton News Network.

[Trigg]

I'm sure all they get from the US is the Clinton News Network.

lol, and how that can be seen as conservative is beyond me.


Like the avatar by the way:salute:

[Gaffer]

I did read an academic's website where he took apart the arguments that the Qu'ran advocated death for apostates and other related issues. I'm not sure of the approach used in reading (as in hermeneutics or some other form of analysis such as exegesis) the Qu'ran but apparently the Hadith has a role as well. I'm not knowledgeable on the topic but I do know I'm not informed enough to make judgements.

hadith's are interpretations of the koran. There are numerous hadiths. The koran cannot be changed but the hadiths can be.

[manu1959]

here is one....

why can anyone go to st peters or jerusalem.....

and noone but muslims to mecca.....

[manu1959]

why do the leaders of muslim countries want the state of israel eliminated....

[manu1959]

if the US was invited to have military bases in muslim countries by the government of those muslim countries....why do other muslim countries want americans dead?

[manu1959]

why can muslims burn my flag and i can't kill you but if i draw a cartoon of allah you get to kill me?

[diuretic]

hadith's are interpretations of the koran. There are numerous hadiths. The koran cannot be changed but the hadiths can be.

Thanks for the info, I need to find out a bit more. I wonder how flexible the hadiths are? Or how influential. But as I say, I need to go and get better informed.

[diuretic]

here is one....

why can anyone go to st peters or jerusalem.....

and noone but muslims to mecca.....

Could it be that those funsters in the House of Saud are protecting it from infidels?

[diuretic]

why do the leaders of muslim countries want the state of israel eliminated....

I haven't heard Indonesia propose that one.

[Kathianne]

why can muslims burn my flag and i can't kill you but if i draw a cartoon of allah you get to kill me?

Don't contemplate Mohammed image on dog. Done and responded to. Not pretty, my sweet.

[diuretic]

if the US was invited to have military bases in muslim countries by the government of those muslim countries....why do other muslim countries want americans dead?

Where's the connection?

[manu1959]

Could it be that those funsters in the House of Saud are protecting it from infidels?

why.....one man's infidel is another man's muslim convert....

[manu1959]

Where's the connection?

muslim's

[diuretic]

why can muslims burn my flag and i can't kill you but if i draw a cartoon of allah you get to kill me?

Depends on where you are at the given times :coffee:

[Kathianne]

Depends on where you are at the given times :coffee:

Not really. The rules as they are, are pretty clear.

[diuretic]

why.....one man's infidel is another man's muslim convert....

How about the Sauds are mediaevelist Wahabbists?

[diuretic]

if the US was invited to have military bases in muslim countries by the government of those muslim countries....why do other muslim countries want americans dead?

I believe it was AQ trying to kick the US out of Saudi that started all this. I did read somewhere that bin Laden had this idea that the Arabian peninsula should have no non-Muslims on it and that it should be totally Wahabbist.

[diuretic]

Not really. The rules as they are, are pretty clear.

Killing people unlawfully is prohibited in the US and in Denmark.

[Kathianne]

I believe it was AQ trying to kick the US out of Saudi that started all this. I did read somewhere that bin Laden had this idea that the Arabian peninsula should have no non-Muslims on it and that it should be totally Wahabbist.

Right. So if the 'west' would just pull out and forget about oil, since the contractors obviously are a problem, all would be fine?

[actsnoblemartin]

I dont think the old testament has anything to do with this discussion because we are discussion why islamic countries treat their women and non muslims as 2nd class citizens now, and throughout history.


Have you read the Old Testament recently?

[actsnoblemartin]

Also, do you really believe there is a global jewish terrorist group running around blowing up things, slitting non-jewish throats, in the name of hashem.

If we compared jewish, let alone all terrorism, other then islamic, to islamic terrorism, its not even close.

Why are you trying to change the subject, and imply christianity or i guess in this case, excuse me :), judaism is as bad as the koran, when much more people are killing globally because of the koran then the torah, and this thread is not about the torah. Im not telling you what to do or say, just conversing with you :)


Have you read the Old Testament recently?

[actsnoblemartin]

again, whether you mean to or not, your excusing the bad behavior justified in the koran, by pointing out other bad behaviour inspired by the torah.

Its not comparitive, because, how many times do u see cnn, msnbc, fox, talk about the latest jewish suicide bomber, a jew slitting the throat of a non jew, praising hashem. I cant tell you what to do , but i wish you would stick to the topic of this thread.

This is about, the words of the koran.

I agree, many of its passages are terrible, and incite violence and hatred, none of which we see in all religions combinged.


did you happen to miss the violence contained therein?

[diuretic]

Right. So if the 'west' would just pull out and forget about oil, since the contractors obviously are a problem, all would be fine?

I'm sorry Kathianne I didn't see the question until now.

No, I don't agree with bin Laden at all. For all I know he could be spinning one so that he gets some sort of economic benefit. I do think he dislikes the House of Saud, but he's no orphan there, the bastards are corrupt as all get out and that's all there is to it. But of course our corporations don't care as long as they get at the tradeable commodity.

bin Laden is a nutter, I don't give two hoots what he has to say about anything.

[actsnoblemartin]

with all due respect, I cant speak for others but, I want your opinion. You as a human being first, muslim second.

I dont come on here as martin the jewish spokesman, who answers all questions about judaism through the torah.

Certainly nothing wrong with quoting the koran, to discuss questions, but we need your opinions also.

The real question is: if the koran is against suicide, against treating non muslims as 2nd class citizens, why are so many muslims countries, persecuting christians and non muslims

I would like your opinion first, as to why, because we are asking you sir. Not the koran. No offense to you, or the koran. But we are speaking to jafar, not mohammed. Same as if, you asked a question about christianity, dont you want a living christians opinion, not just verses of the bible?

Well, no offense to you. I am just curious to read what you have to say ok?

[diuretic]

There was Jewish terrorism/freedom fighting (labels, labels) to establish the state of Israel. I don't know a lot about it, I do know it existed. I'm not even going to make a judgemental statement about it, it was nearly sixty years ago and I know that might seem to be a copout but it seems to me that we could be arguing all the way back to Masada if we're not careful. Oh and just for the record, the Romans were a bunch of fascist bastards.

[actsnoblemartin]

diuretic, i find that to be the best way of communicating as well. When you ask questions, instead of just bluntly stating an opinion, your showing an interest, and a willing to listen to what others think.

I do enjoy many of your posts, and dont believe you have to be 100% impartial to enjoy a good thread thought lol .

:cheers2:


For the record I don't believe any of it. I don't believe that the Bible contains the Word of God. I don't believe in a deity. So I'm pretty impartial in this discussion. I wasn't attempting to validate the Qu'ran or Islam, merely asking questions without answering them myself.

[actsnoblemartin]

because they hate non-muslims. Infact, bethlem was 85% christian in 1948, today only 15. And 800,000 jews were kicked out of muslim lands in 1948.

So, so much for tolerant muslim countries, look at most their demographics. they have like 1% christian, in most cases, and still persecute them.


why do the leaders of muslim countries want the state of israel eliminated....

[actsnoblemartin]

this is what i know: in 1916, the british government declared that the jews could have state, it was called the balfour document. then, in 1947, the united nations signed off.

In 1948, there were two groups of jews, i have no clue how many were on each side ok, what i was told, when i was in israel on my birthright trip was, the terrorists, and yes they were terrorists, called the king david hotel, 1.5 hours before the bomb went off, and said, get out, theres a bomb, the brits, didnt believe them.

boom, innocent people died.

However, the incidents in israel and around the world of jewish terrorism is small, and even smaller when compared to islamic terrorism. That does NOT in any way justify any act of terrorism by people of my faith or any faith.

I realize im biased here, so just check out king david hotel on google.


There was Jewish terrorism/freedom fighting (labels, labels) to establish the state of Israel. I don't know a lot about it, I do know it existed. I'm not even going to make a judgemental statement about it, it was nearly sixty years ago and I know that might seem to be a copout but it seems to me that we could be arguing all the way back to Masada if we're not careful. Oh and just for the record, the Romans were a bunch of fascist bastards.

[diuretic]

I think there was some double-crossing from memory Martin. I'm not sure because it's a while since I read up on this.

I remember Irgun was one group, I think the so-called Stern Gang was the other? Not sure. I think I also remember reading somewhere recently where it was a woman member of Irgun who called the King David Hotel. I'm not surprised the Brits ignored it, they were boofheads, at least the brass were.

I suppose I'm trying to say that (stand by for incoming from Captain Obvious) that there's no black and white on these things. We need to be prepared to analyse them carefully, warts and all and stop ascribing noble motivation to one side and evil motivation to another. That's the trap we've fallen into at the moment. Sure, bin Laden and his gang are murderous nutters and not to be reasoned with but to be hunted down and dealt with. But the wider aspects need to be treated as the extremely complex issues they are.

[actsnoblemartin]

I honestly love chatting with you on the message board, and reading your posts, because you hit the nail on the head. These are complex issues, not black and white. Excellent job. We must be honest about the past, the present and the future, even if it isnt preety. I will try to look up some info on the king david thing. I have never, and will never pretend jews are holier then thou, i just happen to be one, i like good jews, i dont like bad jews, same for any race, religion, or gender.


I think there was some double-crossing from memory Martin. I'm not sure because it's a while since I read up on this.

I remember Irgun was one group, I think the so-called Stern Gang was the other? Not sure. I think I also remember reading somewhere recently where it was a woman member of Irgun who called the King David Hotel. I'm not surprised the Brits ignored it, they were boofheads, at least the brass were.

I suppose I'm trying to say that (stand by for incoming from Captain Obvious) that there's no black and white on these things. We need to be prepared to analyse them carefully, warts and all and stop ascribing noble motivation to one side and evil motivation to another. That's the trap we've fallen into at the moment. Sure, bin Laden and his gang are murderous nutters and not to be reasoned with but to be hunted down and dealt with. But the wider aspects need to be treated as the extremely complex issues they are.

[actsnoblemartin]

since i know im biased on this, here is the source, showing how i found it. and then a wikipedia thing. Feel free to do your own research. :)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=king+david+hotel+attack

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

King David Hotel bombing
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
• Learn more about citing Wikipedia •Jump to: navigation, search
The King David Hotel bombing (July 22, 1946) was a bombing attack against the British government of Palestine by members of Irgun — a militant Zionist organization.

The attack, initially ordered by Menachem Begin the head of the Irgun and later Prime Minister of Israel, had members of the Irgun, dressed as Arabs, set off a bomb in the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, which had been the base for the British Secretariat, the military command and a branch of the Criminal Investigation Division (police). 91 people were killed, most of them staff of the secretariat and the hotel: 28 British, 41 Arab, 17 Jewish, and 5 other. Around 45 people were injured. The attack was commanded by Yosef Avni and Yisrael Levi.[1]

The attack on the hotel was the deadliest attack against the British in the history of the Mandate.

Contents [hide]
1 The attack
2 Responses to the attack
3 Controversy
4 See also
5 Further reading
6 References
7 External links



[edit] The attack
Moshe Sneh, chief of the Haganah General Headquarters, sent a letter to Menachem Begin, the leader of the Irgun, with instructions. Text in (bracketed italics) has been inserted to clarify some of the references. The original letter can be found in the Jabotinsky Institute Archives (k-4 1/11/5).

At the earliest possible opportunity, you are to carry out the operation at the "chick" (code for the King David Hotel) and at the house of "your servant and messiah" (code for the David Brothers building). Inform me of the date. Preferably at the same time. Do not reveal the identity of the implementing body - either by announcing it explicitly or by hinting.
We too are preparing something - will inform you of details in good time.
Exclude TA (Tel Aviv) from any plan of action. We are all interested in preserving TA - as the center of Yishuv life and the center of our own activities. If, as the result of any action, TA is immobilized (i.e., curfew, arrests), this will paralyze us and our plans as well. And the important objects of the other side are not focused here. Hence, TA is 'out of bounds' for the forces of Israel. 1.7.46. M. (Moshe Sneh)."
Despite its initial approval, repeated delays of the operation were requested by the Haganah in response to the changing political situation. The plan was finalised between Amichai Feglin(Gidi), chief of operations from the Irgun, and Itzhak Sadeh, commander of the Palmach. The details and the specific hour chosen for the attack were aimed at minimizing civilian casualties (the attack was planned before lunch time, so that there would be no people on the ground floor of the coffee shop which was the section to be destroyed. Irgun reports included explicit precautions so that the whole area would be evacuated). [2] The plan consisted of Irgun men, dressed as hotel employees and carrying the explosives which were concealed in milk cans, entering the building from a cafe on the ground floor, and placing the charges below the hotel wing where the British institutions were located. Finally it was decided the attack would take place on July 22 at 11:00. The attack used approximately 350 kg of explosives spread across six charges. Due to a delay the operation started at 12:00, and a minor gunfight ensued with two British soldiers who became suspicious and tried to intervene. Irgun suffered two casualties as a result of this gunfight. [2] After placing the bombs, the Irgun men quickly escaped and detonated a small explosive in the street outside the hotel to keep passers-by away from the area. The Arab workers in the kitchen were told to flee and they did.[2]

A warning message was delivered to the telephone operator of the King David Hotel before the attack and also delivered to the French consulate and the Palestine Post newspaper. According to Irgun sources, the message read "I am speaking on behalf of the Hebrew underground. We have placed an explosive device in the hotel. Evacuate it at once - you have been warned."

Irgun representatives have always claimed that the warning was given well in advance so that adequate time was available to evacuate the hotel. Menachem Begin writes (p. 221, The Revolt, <1951> ed.) that the telephone message was delivered 25 - 27 minutes before the explosion. The British authorities denied for many years that there had been a warning at all, but the leaking of the internal police report on the bombing during the 1970s proved that a warning had indeed been received. However, the report stated that the warning was only just being delivered to the officer in charge as the bomb went off (Bethell). According to Begin, the British had been warned of the bombing but refused to evacuate the building because "We don't take orders from the Jews" [3]. However, according to Shmuel Katz, in his book Days of Fire, "The Haganah radio later broadcast a report that on receiving the warning Sir John Shaw, the Chief Secretary of the British administration, had said: "I give orders here. I don't take orders from Jews," and that he had insisted that nobody leave the building. Katz says that this version may be dismissed because it probably developed from the fact that while some of Shaw's close colleagues and subordinates were killed, he himself was unscathed, and gained credence when Shaw was transferred from Palestine a month later. It is more likely that the British did not take the warning seriously because they did not believe Etzel could infiltrate their HQ that was guarded so well.

The French Consulate did open their windows from fear of a possible blast, and the operator of the Palestine Post called the police after the warning. When the bombing occurred, there were already several reporters in the area because of the leaked warning.[2]


[edit] Responses to the attack
Prime Minister Clement Attlee commented on the attack to the House of Commons:

Hon. Members will have learned with horror of the brutal and murderous crime committed yesterday in Jerusalem. Of all the outrages which have occurred in Palestine, and they have been many and horrible in the last few months, this is the worst. By this insane act of terrorism 93 innocent people have been killed or are missing in the ruins. The latest figures of casualties are 41 dead, 52 missing and 53 injured. I have no further information at present beyond what is contained in the following official report received from Jerusalem:

"It appears that after exploding a small bomb in the street, presumably as a diversionary measure — this did virtually no damage — a lorry drove up to the tradesmen's entrance of the King David Hotel and the occupants, after holding up the staff at pistol point, entered the kitchen premises carrying a number of milk cans. At some stage of the proceedings, they shot and seriously wounded a British soldier who attempted to interfere with them. All available information so far is to the effect that they were Jews. Somewhere in the basement of the hotel they planted bombs which went off shortly afterwards. They appear to have made good their escape."

Every effort is being made to identify and arrest the perpetrators of this outrage. The work of rescue in the debris, which was immediately organised, still continues. The next-of-kin of casualties are being notified by telegram as soon as accurate information is available. The House will wish to express their profound sympathy with the relatives of the killed and with those injured in this dastardly outrage.

(House of Commons Debates, Hansard 425:1877-78 (23 July, 1946)).

The Chief Secretary for the Government of Palestine, Sir John Shaw, declared in a broadcast:

"As head of the Secretariat, the majority of the dead and wounded were my own staff, many of whom I have known personally for eleven years. They are more than official colleagues. British, Arabs, Jews, Greeks, Armenians; senior officers, police, my orderly, my chauffeur, messengers, guards, men and women - young and old - they were my friends."
The Jewish leadership publicly condemned these attacks. The Jewish agency expressed "their feelings of horror at the base and unparalleled act perpetrated today by a gang of criminals". In fact, the Irgun was acting in response to instructions from the United Resistance, as described in the letter from Moshe Sneh cited above. Richard Crossman, a member of the British Parliament reported later that in a private meeting with Chaim Weizmann, shortly after the attack, he expressed a different response than the ones he made publicly over the attack. Weizmann was reported as crying and saying that he can't help but be very proud for "our boys", and if only it was a German HQ they would have received the Victoria Cross (Richard Crossman - A Nation Reborn, The Israel of Weizmann Bevin and Ben-Gurion).

The Irgun issued an initial statement accepting responsibility for the attack, blaming the British for the deaths due to failure to respond to the warning and mourning the Jewish victims. A year later, on July 22, 1947, they issued a new statement saying that they were acting on instructions from "a letter from the headquarters of the United Resistance, demanding that we carry out an attack on the center of government at the King David Hotel as soon as possible."

Menachem Begin reportedly was very saddened and upset. He was angry that the British did not evacuate and so there were casualties, which was against the Irgun's policy. One of the dead was Jewish and Etzel sympathizer Yulius Jacobs.[2]

The British army commander in Palestine, General Sir Evelyn Barker, in an order written only a few minutes after the bombing, commanded that "all Jewish places of entertainment, cafes, restaurants, shops and private dwellings" be "out of bounds to all ranks". He concluded: "I appreciate that these measures will inflict some hardship on the troops, but I am certain that if my reasons are fully explained to them, they will understand their propriety and they will be punishing the Jews in the way the race dislikes as much as any by striking at their pockets and showing our contempt for them." The order was rescinded two weeks later after much outrage {Tom Segev, One Palestine, Complete, pp.479ff.} at its "antisemitic nature."

In the days following the attack over 130,000 citizens of Tel-Aviv were interrogated by CID. The British government took the decision to imprison illegal Jewish immigrants to Palestine on Cyprus, including children. The camps were to be funded by taxation of the Jewish community in Palestine.

The attack on the King David Hotel did not impede progress toward an Anglo-American agreement on Palestine, which was then in its concluding phase. In a letter dated July 25, 1946, Prime Minister Atlee wrote to President Truman: "I am sure you will agree that the inhuman crime committed in Jerusalem on 22 July calls for the strongest action against terrorism but having regard to the sufferings of the innocent Jewish victims of Nazism this should not deter us from introducing a policy designed to bring peace to Palestine with the least possible delay." (confidential letter, Atlee to Truman, Truman Presidential Library, www.trumanlibrary.org).


[edit] Controversy
In July 2006, right-wing Israelis including former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and former members of Irgun attended a 60th anniversary celebration of the bombing, which was organized by the Menachem Begin Centre. The British Ambassador in Tel Aviv and the Consul-General in Jerusalem dissented, saying "We do not think that it is right for an act of terrorism, which led to the loss of many lives, to be commemorated." They also protested against an Israeli plaque that claims that people died because the British ignored warning calls, saying it was untrue and "did not absolve those who planted the bomb." The plaque read "For reasons known only to the British, the hotel was not evacuated.” City officials agreed to slightly amend the wording on the plaque. [4]


[edit] See also
Arab-Israeli conflict
Zionist political violence

[edit] Further reading
T. Clarke, By Blood and Fire
Nicholas Bethell, The Palestine Triangle, Andre Deutsch 1979, Futura 1970.
Aharon Cohen, Israel and the Arab World, (NY: Funk and Wagnalls, 1970), p. 172.
Menachem Begin, The Revolt, Dell Books, New York NY, 1978

[edit] References
^ Silver, p70
^ a b c d e Katz, Shmuel. Days of Fire. Karni Press , 1966, p.196-197.(Hebrew)
^ James Taranto, "Best of the Web Today", Wall Street Journal, February 4, 2004
^ Ned Parker and Stephen Farrell,"British anger at terror celebration", The Times, July 20, 2006

[edit] External links
Attack on the King David Hotel (from the Irgun website)
The Outrage - Account from British military sources.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing"
Categories: Irgun | History of Israel | History of Jerusalem | Terrorism in Israel | False flag operations