Our followers ‘must live in peace until strong enough to wage jihad’

[stephanie]

SNIP:

Andrew Norfolk
One of the world’s most respected Deobandi scholars believes that aggressive military jihad should be waged by Muslims “to establish the supremacy of Islam” worldwide.

Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani argues that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle.

His views explode the myth that the creed of offensive, expansionist jihad represents a distortion of traditional Islamic thinking.

Mr Usmani, 64, sat for 20 years as a Sharia judge in Pakistan’s Supreme Court. He is an adviser to several global financial institutions and a regular visitor to Britain. Polite and softly spoken, he revealed to The Times a detailed knowledge of world events and his words, for the most part, were balanced and considered.


He agreed that it was wrong to suggest that the entire nonMuslim world was intent on destroying Islam. Yet this is a man who, in his published work, argues the case for Muslims to wage an expansionist war against nonMuslim lands.


read the rest at..
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2409833.ece

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,

1. But I think everyone already knew this.
2. At least everyone with a working brain.
3. Its way past time that we should be rounding these bastards up and shipping them to other Muslim lands.
4. And prepare for the final battle.
5. Where its America blowing them to *Kingdom Come*.
6. Anyone who thinks we have to sit back and wait for Islam to attack us has to be insane.
7. We should do our best to rid the planet of all of Islam.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[avatar4321]

SNIP:

Andrew Norfolk
One of the world’s most respected Deobandi scholars believes that aggressive military jihad should be waged by Muslims “to establish the supremacy of Islam” worldwide.

Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani argues that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle.

His views explode the myth that the creed of offensive, expansionist jihad represents a distortion of traditional Islamic thinking.

Mr Usmani, 64, sat for 20 years as a Sharia judge in Pakistan’s Supreme Court. He is an adviser to several global financial institutions and a regular visitor to Britain. Polite and softly spoken, he revealed to The Times a detailed knowledge of world events and his words, for the most part, were balanced and considered.


He agreed that it was wrong to suggest that the entire nonMuslim world was intent on destroying Islam. Yet this is a man who, in his published work, argues the case for Muslims to wage an expansionist war against nonMuslim lands.


read the rest at..
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2409833.ece

How does his views explode the myth of explosive offensive jihad... thats exactly what he is advocating. Live in peace till you have enough people to overthrow them.

[glockmail]

.....
Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani argues that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle. .... That's written in the Koran somewhere; lay low until you have enough numbers to attack. That's why it's the "religion of peace".

[jafar00]

That's written in the Koran somewhere; lay low until you have enough numbers to attack. That's why it's the "religion of peace".

Exactly where in the Qur'aan is that written? I've read it front to back more than 30 times and I don't know where that instruction is.

[glockmail]

Exactly where in the Qur'aan is that written? I've read it front to back more than 30 times and I don't know where that instruction is.2.109. Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could Turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the Truth hath become Manifest unto them: But forgive and overlook, Till Allah accomplish His purpose; for Allah Hath power over all things.

[jafar00]

2.109. Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could Turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the Truth hath become Manifest unto them: But forgive and overlook, Till Allah accomplish His purpose; for Allah Hath power over all things.

I don't see how that verse says "lay low until you have enough numbers to attack"

[JackDaniels]

2.109. Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could Turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the Truth hath become Manifest unto them: But forgive and overlook, Till Allah accomplish His purpose; for Allah Hath power over all things.

That has NOTHING to do with killing WHATSOEVER.

You are a fucking idiot.

[glockmail]

I don't see how that verse says "lay low until you have enough numbers to attack" That's because you are blind to the truth.

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,

1. But I see and agree with glockmail.
2. Says lay low till you can overcome the Infidels, even as they pretend to agree with you in allowing you to be around them.
3. And when the times right aLLAH will tell you to strike then.
4. Thats what I got from his quote.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[JackDaniels]

That's because you are blind to the truth.

There is absolutely NO allusion to killing.

If you believe it does, you should explain WHERE it does, because at this point, you sound like an uneducated fool.

[Yurt]

Quran:

9:29

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


nuff said...

[glockmail]

There is absolutely NO allusion to killing.

If you believe it does, you should explain WHERE it does, because at this point, you sound like an uneducated fool. I think we see who the uneducated fool is here.
:poke:

[jafar00]

Quran:

9:29

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


nuff said...

This is quoted in the context of the Peace treaty of Hudaybiya which I have already talked about in another thread.
You need to read the first part of Surah 9 to get some context for ayah 29, but since you will probably not bother, here is one ayah that explains the reason for the fighting in the first place..


What! will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Messenger, and they attacked you first; do you fear them? But Allah is most deserving that you should fear Him, if you are believers. 9:13

Nuff said..

[avatar4321]

I dont think it really matters what the Quran says. Its what the Clerics are saying thats important. and that is exactly why we should be careful.

[Yurt]

This is quoted in the context of the Peace treaty of Hudaybiya which I have already talked about in another thread.
You need to read the first part of Surah 9 to get some context for ayah 29, but since you will probably not bother, here is one ayah that explains the reason for the fighting in the first place..



Nuff said..

No, it is not.


Quran:

9:29

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


nuff said...

Those are "any" who fit that bill. Or are you saying the quran is not for all time and all people?

And here is the true context which proves you either have not read the quran or are tying pull a fast one on us.



28. O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

30. The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah.s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

31. They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah. there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).


Clearly, verse 28 is finished talking about the Pagens, which it expressly mentions by name. Then, it changes the "subject" to "those" in 29 and continues on speaking about other subjects who are not the pagens talked about in 28, in verses 30 onward.

Might want to read muhammad's book a little more clearly.

Edit: even verse 29 clearly states this verse is NOT soley to the pagens.

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,

1. But what the, *Bottom Line* of what Islam is teaching is this.
2. Submit to their gOd, who will guide all peoples to fall at your feet, and ask for forgiveness, with submissive taxes, grovel at my feet taxes.
3. I say we slap down Islam, and break its neck!
4. Islam isn't worthy.
5. And they won't stop until everyone has a dumb prayer rug.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[glockmail]

I dont think it really matters what the Quran says. Its what the Clerics are saying thats important. and that is exactly why we should be careful.
The Koran is so poorly written by a lunatic that it is open for nearly any interpretation. It does make decent toilet paper though.

[avatar4321]

The Koran is so poorly written by a lunatic that it is open for nearly any interpretation. It does make decent toilet paper though.

Like I said, doesnt matter what the Quran says. It matters what the clerics say. The Quran could contain the essential secrets of the eternity and if the Clerics are teaching kids to strap bombs to themselves its not going to matter.

[Nukeman]

Like I said, doesnt matter what the Quran says. It matters what the clerics say. The Quran could contain the essential secrets of the eternity and if the Clerics are teaching kids to strap bombs to themselves its not going to matter.
I have been saying esentialy the same thing in other threads yet Jafar continues to say "they aren't real Muslims". Only good tolerant people are Muslims just like only evil, degenerate people are Christians and Jews. Just ask him I'm sure he'll quote you a passage of the Koran that makes no sense to the topic at hand.....

[avatar4321]

I have been saying esentialy the same thing in other threads yet Jafar continues to say "they aren't real Muslims". Only good tolerant people are Muslims just like only evil, degenerate people are Christians and Jews. Just ask him I'm sure he'll quote you a passage of the Koran that makes no sense to the topic at hand.....

I hate that argument. I hate the "They arent real Christians" argument too. If anyone who did something bad was excluded from their religion then there would be no muslims and no christians in the world cause lets face the facts: No one is perfect.

Granted these people are bad muslisms or bad christians. but pretending they arent part of the religion as an away to excuse their behavior isnt the right thing to do. People see right through it and are less inclined to listen to the message because rather than deal with the bad "insert religion here" people pretend the bad ones dont really exist.

The only way i could see the "They arent real ______" argument working is if there are clearly defined centralized organization with records on who is a believer and who isnt. But neither Islam, no Christianity is very centralized or unified. Few religions are.

So i think the argument is dishonest. I dont think those making it are necessarily lying. But they might not be wanting to face the truth of the matter themselves. if the truth is admitted there is a responsibility to go and straighten these bad believers out. and its just easier to deny they exist.

[Yurt]

No, it is not.



Those are "any" who fit that bill. Or are you saying the quran is not for all time and all people?

And here is the true context which proves you either have not read the quran or are tying pull a fast one on us.


28. O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

30. The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah.s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

31. They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah. there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).


Clearly, verse 28 is finished talking about the Pagens, which it expressly mentions by name. Then, it changes the "subject" to "those" in 29 and continues on speaking about other subjects who are not the pagens talked about in 28, in verses 30 onward.

Might want to read muhammad's book a little more clearly.

Edit: even verse 29 clearly states this verse is NOT soley to the pagens.

come on jafar, don't run

[Yurt]

jafar, you have been online and posted, why are you ignoring this thread?

[jimnyc]

come on jafar, don't run


jafar, you have been online and posted, why are you ignoring this thread?

Don't hold your breath, guys. There are several threads that I have asked him direct questions in that remain unanswered.

[jafar00]

I'm not running. What you are saying Yurt about the context is wrong. Look up the history of events surrounding the time of the revelation of Surah 9 and you will see what I mean.
I know, when you are reading an interpretation in English, things may seem a little confusing, especially when you don't know the background information, nor can you read Arabic which is the language that the Qur'aan was revealed in.

[theHawk]

nor can you read Arabic which is the language that the Qur'aan was revealed in.

Whats the Arabic word for pedophile?

[Yurt]

I'm not running. What you are saying Yurt about the context is wrong. Look up the history of events surrounding the time of the revelation of Surah 9 and you will see what I mean.
I know, when you are reading an interpretation in English, things may seem a little confusing, especially when you don't know the background information, nor can you read Arabic which is the language that the Qur'aan was revealed in.

I was waiting for this excuse. It is universally used by muslims to get out of bad situations with the quran, however, it NEVER comes up when english translate the verse as MUSLIMS want it to be translated, never. Unfortunately, you have already answered in english that I am wrong based on your telling me to read the quranic text IN english as you know I don't speak arabic. I ask you this: DO YOU speak arabic?

Further, there are at least (3) translations that say the SAME thing. Also, no translation can mistake the meaning:

29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


You are flat out wrong or you are lying. If you speak arabic, explain to me then what this verse means. It clearly is not solely about pagens and NO translator would have made the mistake as you full well know the "people of the book" are very well known and understood in the arabic world. As I said before, the prior topic was the pagens, however, there is NO mistake about the people of the book being mentioned.

I am leaving the verse unquoted because I want everyone to see exactly what I said when you have the courage to quote me and respond. And please, don't give me the chicken moooslemen response about translation, I have been down that road and won. Ultimately, words are simply vocal chords expressing thoughts in a sound that makes sense to the listener. So don't get high and mighty on the vocal words, it is the thoughts that are imporant. While languages may differ, 95%* of human thought can be transferred.


*I made this up, but I doubt I am far off.