Election results 2019: Nicola Sturgeon says PM has 'no right' to block Indyref2

[Gunny]

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50779724

For those interested. Drummond was trying to explain this to me awhile back. I don't get it. Why would Scotland want to remain in the EU? I thought they just tended sheep there. I didn't know they ARE the sheep :rolleyes:

It DOES however kind of put PM Johnson in a tight corner. He said he would not entertain any such notion as another vote Scotland's independence. All you have to do nowadays to get independence is demand it?

But did not PM Johnson just win by the very thing he has declared to deny Scotland? The will of the people.

[Drummond]

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50779724

For those interested. Drummond was trying to explain this to me awhile back. I don't get it. Why would Scotland want to remain in the EU? I thought they just tended sheep there. I didn't know they ARE the sheep :rolleyes:

It DOES however kind of put PM Johnson in a tight corner. He said he would not entertain any such notion as another vote Scotland's independence. All you have to do nowadays to get independence is demand it?

But did not PM Johnson just win by the very thing he has declared to deny Scotland? The will of the people.

Scotland's Nationalist Movement (the SNP) is deeply Socialist. It's just the strong Nationalism that marks them out to be different.

Naturally, the EU's broadly Socialist character will appeal to them ... though ... they have quite a blind spot when it comes to simultaneously craving 'independence' and yet not wanting to be independent of a control-freaking colossus such as the EU.

With Johnson's stonking great MP majority in the Commons, he can just ignore Sturgeon's blatherings with comparative ease. She has no actual power to contrive a fresh Independence referendum. Let Sturgeon stamp her feet in indignation. She should remember (yet chooses not to, when it's convenient !) that the last Referendum on Scottish Independence was advertised as being a 'once in a generation' vote.

The Will of the People was expressed in a Referendum in 2014. The vote then was for Scotland to remain within the UK.

And we all know of Boris's great enthusiasm for respecting results of Referenda .... :cool:

[Drummond]

Scotland's Nationalist Movement (the SNP) is deeply Socialist. It's just the strong Nationalism that marks them out to be different.

Naturally, the EU's broadly Socialist character will appeal to them ... though ... they have quite a blind spot when it comes to simultaneously craving 'independence' and yet not wanting to be independent of a control-freaking colossus such as the EU.

With Johnson's stonking great MP majority in the Commons, he can just ignore Sturgeon's blatherings with comparative ease. She has no actual power to contrive a fresh Independence referendum. Let Sturgeon stamp her feet in indignation. She should remember (yet chooses not to, when it's convenient !) that the last Referendum on Scottish Independence was advertised as being a 'once in a generation' vote.

The Will of the People was expressed in a Referendum in 2014. The vote then was for Scotland to remain within the UK.

And we all know of Boris's great enthusiasm for respecting results of Referenda .... :cool:

As an aside (- sort of -) ... here's a clip of Nicola Sturgeon, viewing the moment when the leader of the LibDems (Jo Swinson) lost her seat to an SNP challenger. She claims to 'feel' for Swinson ... and, we see 'how' she does ....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS4kaxRJYqU

[Gunny]

Scottish/Celtic history has always intrigued me. I love all the "Braveheart" crap but playing a less role in the movie is the fact that Scot noblemen were the most duplicitous bunch of land grabbers and would indeed and did more than once sell out Scotland for a title, land and/or money.

Seems that nut hasn't fallen too far from the tree.

In the US, those of us of Scottish ancestry were called "hillbillies" :laugh2: We ignore the political intrigue of our ancestors and stick more to the hard-headed, fighting, drinking and independence. When they settled in the SE US (mostly) it was for land and freedom and they had contend only with nature and indians. And when the Brits rolled around trying to tell them what-all they were going to do during the American Revolution.

[Abbey Marie]

I have a few Scot ex-pat friends. To a person, they are quite liberal. I was initially surprised.

[Drummond]

I have a few Scot ex-pat friends. To a person, they are quite liberal. I was initially surprised.

Is that 'liberal' in the American sense of the word, i.e Leftie ?

Call most true Scots a 'liberal democrat', and they won't associate the term with Leftieism, but with a political Party likely to disagree with what they hope for, politically (indeed, Jo Swinson was the leader of the LibDems, and she lost her Scottish seat a couple of days ago to the Scottish Nationalist rival, as Sturgeon's video clip shows us ..). Some would be insulted for not being regarded as Left-wing ENOUGH ... :weights:

[Gunny]

Is that 'liberal' in the American sense of the word, i.e Leftie ?

Call most true Scots a 'liberal democrat', and they won't associate the term with Leftieism, but with a political Party likely to disagree with what they hope for, politically (indeed, Jo Swinson was the leader of the LibDems, and she lost her Scottish seat a couple of days ago to the Scottish Nationalist rival, as Sturgeon's video clip shows us ..). Some would be insulted for not being regarded as Left-wing ENOUGH ... :weights:What kind of impact would it have on Great Britain if Scotland was to go independent?

I don't get the mindset of "We want our freedom and independence" while wanting to align with the EU. Sounds like Ireland in WWII trying to strike a deal with the Nazi's because they'd prefer THAT lot just so long as they weren't English.

[Drummond]

What kind of impact would it have on Great Britain if Scotland was to go independent?

I don't get the mindset of "We want our freedom and independence" while wanting to align with the EU. Sounds like Ireland in WWII trying to strike a deal with the Nazi's because they'd prefer THAT lot just so long as they weren't English.

I completely agree with your 2nd paragraph, & I think your Ireland - Nazis comparison is a good one.

I don't think the Scots perceive the EU realistically. It may have started off as a worthwhile trading confederation, but that's before the power-mongers moved in, filled the potential power-vacuum, to make the EU a political entity, complete with its own Parliament and legislative capabilities able to enforce its decisions. No. They see its power, and think it's a trading colossus, when it's far more than that. They're blind to the EU's agenda.

If Scotland goes independent .. it'd be messy all around. We'd lose Scotland's capacity for industry ... such as that is. They have shipbuilding capabilities. More ... what's left of our North Sea oil, well, much is off the coast of Scotland. The Scots would doubtless want it just for themselves, hoping to cut off any further revenues from that oil to us.

We'd lose fishing 'grounds' around the Sottish coast (& no doubt do lucrative deals with the EU from their produce). Oh, and we'd doubtless pay a premium for fair isle sweaters.

Scotland would lose what we'd otherwise give them ... military infrastructure, IT services and resources, they couldn't lay claim to a relationship with our industrial base at all as anything other than competitors or customers.

Some Scottish MP's would miss their cozy seating arrangements in the Commons, and be denied MP's expenses ....

Only quite a small percentage of the UK's population is Scottish. They'd lose significant manpower resources.

Politically, it'd create a domino effect. Scotland getting independence would encourage the Welsh to push for their own independence (as I'm an Englishman living in Wales, my own circumstances might get 'interesting'). I don't know what Northern Ireland would do.

Anyway .. I struggle to see anything good coming out of it. How the Scots do, or would, is beyond me.

[Gunny]

I completely agree with your 2nd paragraph, & I think your Ireland - Nazis comparison is a good one.

I don't think the Scots perceive the EU realistically. It may have started off as a worthwhile trading confederation, but that's before the power-mongers moved in, filled the potential power-vacuum, to make the EU a political entity, complete with its own Parliament and legislative capabilities able to enforce its decisions. No. They see its power, and think it's a trading colossus, when it's far more than that. They're blind to the EU's agenda.

If Scotland goes independent .. it'd be messy all around. We'd lose Scotland's capacity for industry ... such as that is. They have shipbuilding capabilities. More ... what's left of our North Sea oil, well, much is off the coast of Scotland. The Scots would doubtless want it just for themselves, hoping to cut off any further revenues from that oil to us.

We'd lose fishing 'grounds' around the Sottish coast (& no doubt do lucrative deals with the EU from their produce). Oh, and we'd doubtless pay a premium for fair isle sweaters.

Scotland would lose what we'd otherwise give them ... military infrastructure, IT services and resources, they couldn't lay claim to a relationship with our industrial base at all as anything other than competitors or customers.

Some Scottish MP's would miss their cozy seating arrangements in the Commons, and be denied MP's expenses ....

Only quite a small percentage of the UK's population is Scottish. They'd lose significant manpower resources.

Politically, it'd create a domino effect. Scotland getting independence would encourage the Welsh to push for their own independence (as I'm an Englishman living in Wales, my own circumstances might get 'interesting'). I don't know what Northern Ireland would do.

Anyway .. I struggle to see anything good coming out of it. How the Scots do, or would, is beyond me.Form my point of view, it sounds like there isn't any real merit to the idea. I'm just trying to see what it is the Scots hope to gain by such a move. They've got to think they're going to get something out of the deal.

Scotland isn't a self-sustained Nation, is it? i can't imagine that it is. It would have to be strong enough to sustain itself, or it will instead have to enslave itself. Think I'd rather go with Great Britain than the EU.