I'm confused, Jafar

[jimnyc]

I don't want to attempt to speak for others, so please take this as solely my opinion.

It would appear to me that "Muslims" are involved in terrorist attacks worldwide. Muslims are involved in non-stop suicide bombings. It was Muslims who crashed 4 planes they hijacked within the USA.

But yet with every example that is given to you, you in turn proclaim they are NOT Muslims because of their actions.

So let me get this straight - anyone who commits these atrocities, is no longer a Muslim? And we can't blame Muslims for any of these activities, because once they are committed by these cowards, they are no longer Muslims?

So in the end, Muslims have not done anything wrong at all in the terror world, because although the attackers were at one time Muslims, they are no more once they commit their acts?

Do you think those who have committed such acts in the past 7 years would have done so if they weren't raised via the Muslim faith?

And again, I'm not attacking ALL Muslims, as we both know there are millions of good ones out there, and I chill with a few myself sometimes. But in my opinion, there is something seriously wrong with the Muslim community currently. Claim peace, act differently, and then proclaim innocence.

[jimnyc]

*crickets chirping*

I think my point has been made, and it's obviously indefensible.

Good day!

[jafar00]

Thanks for your question. I'll try and answer it as best I can.

Firstm on the subject of why they are no longer Muslims, you simply need to look at the Qur'aan..


and whoever of you turns back from his religion, then he dies while an unbeliever-- these it is whose works shall go for nothing in this world and the hereafter, and they are the inmates of the fire; therein they shall abide. Qur'aan 2:217

By committing suicide and/or killing innocent people, or you "exceed the limits"(see below) you have turned your back from the religion and die an unbeliever.



And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. Qur'aan 2:190

Secondly, you have to look at the situation many of these people are living in.

Many of these countries have been subject to perpetual war. They know of nothing else. This situation means their level of education of their religion has suffered. Their lack of knowledge has allowed the evil terrorist leaders to twist their minds because, unable to read or comprehend, they are made to believe they are doing the right thing when they clearly aren't. The terrorist leaders are the unbelievers who led them astray.



And if you obey most of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from Allah's way; they follow but conjecture and they only lie. Qur'aan 6:116

In a nutshell, I'm saying don't blame the religion, blame the people who claim to follow it, but the only thing that comes out of their mouths are lies.

Do I think those who have committed such acts in the past 7 years would have done so if they weren't raised via the Muslim faith?

Yes I do! If you listened to any of the rants from Osama Bin Laden or others, they actually have a legitimate bone to pick if you read between the obvious attempts at twisting Islam to justify what they do. It's all down to oppression, support for those who oppress them, and foreign troops in their countries. They would act I'm sure, even if they didn't have a religion to follow. *Disclaimer - this doesn't mean I support the actions of terrorists in any way*

I hope I answered well enough. :)

[Yurt]

You anti islam hater kaffir, infidel.....:cool:


In order for Islam to be "legitimate" unto its believers, it must necessarily always be the victim when engaged in warfare. The vast majority of muslims interpret their cult to be one that is not offensive, but defensive. Offensive can only come when their "belief" is threatened, so even when "offensive" they must be defensive because their "belief" is threatened. They will never admit to conquering or starting a war, ever.

It is like they just happened on the scene and by golly george, the whole world is against them and will be for all time, thus, Islam is always spreading "defensively."

Sound about right Manu?

[jafar00]

*crickets chirping*

Phew, give me a chance. It took me an hour to post that. :lame2:

[jimnyc]

Phew, give me a chance. It took me an hour to post that. :lame2:

An hour? Took me about 2 1/2 minutes to make my initial post. Sorry I had you baffled for so long.


Many of these countries have been subject to perpetual war. They know of nothing else. This situation means their level of education of their religion has suffered. Their lack of knowledge has allowed the evil terrorist leaders to twist their minds because, unable to read or comprehend, they are made to believe they are doing the right thing when they clearly aren't.

Now THERE you have it in a nutshell. Muslims have warped their religion. Their lack of knowledge leads them to believe suicide attacks are a good thing. They can't read, write or comprehend - but learn that strapping bombs to themselves is a 'good' thing.

So while Islam by definition might be a religion of peace, current times show just the opposite is being professed in far too many places. So while many might try to lay the blame on 'occupations' or the ousting of terror regimes, the current problem that is being worked on by the USA and the UK is because of religious fanatics.

[Monkeybone]

why don't these better educated and better off muslims go in and try to help then? bring the 'true' islam back to the ppl and start a reformation (?) so to speak instead of just going on how uneducated these poor ppl are.

[theHawk]

'True Muslim' or not, its irrelavant. It doesn't change the fact that the Islamic culture, if not the religion, is producing these people. And they must be dealt with.

[actsnoblemartin]

What jafar said is not true. Everything the terrorists do, they quote from the koran, which is why I dont like islam or the koran.

Now, do i have muslims friends?, yes.

Do I think all muslims are terrorists, no

but I think there are two different types of muslims.

Those who are completely against it and speak out, which is 2% in my opinion

and those who condone it, those who condone it by not speaking out, those who finance it, are sympathetic to it, make the bombs, plan it, those who hate us, but do nothing, and those who commit the terrorist acts.

I would not round up all muslims like we did to the japanese, but i would monitor every mosque, to weed out the good muslims from the bad.

You cannot pretend, that a bad muslims does something he is not a muslim, when the koran tells him to do bad things.

Your argument jafar, with all due respect young man, is false, and holds no water

I don't want to attempt to speak for others, so please take this as solely my opinion.

It would appear to me that "Muslims" are involved in terrorist attacks worldwide. Muslims are involved in non-stop suicide bombings. It was Muslims who crashed 4 planes they hijacked within the USA.

But yet with every example that is given to you, you in turn proclaim they are NOT Muslims because of their actions.

So let me get this straight - anyone who commits these atrocities, is no longer a Muslim? And we can't blame Muslims for any of these activities, because once they are committed by these cowards, they are no longer Muslims?

So in the end, Muslims have not done anything wrong at all in the terror world, because although the attackers were at one time Muslims, they are no more once they commit their acts?

Do you think those who have committed such acts in the past 7 years would have done so if they weren't raised via the Muslim faith?

And again, I'm not attacking ALL Muslims, as we both know there are millions of good ones out there, and I chill with a few myself sometimes. But in my opinion, there is something seriously wrong with the Muslim community currently. Claim peace, act differently, and then proclaim innocence.

[actsnoblemartin]

islam is not a religion of peace, that is the biggest lie out there. After mohammeds death, they went with armies of 3-4 thousand and conquered almost the entire world, until charles de martel of france stopped them.

Now, I never said any religion was a religion of peace, but islam certainly is the least peaceful of any.


An hour? Took me about 2 1/2 minutes to make my initial post. Sorry I had you baffled for so long.



Now THERE you have it in a nutshell. Muslims have warped their religion. Their lack of knowledge leads them to believe suicide attacks are a good thing. They can't read, write or comprehend - but learn that strapping bombs to themselves is a 'good' thing.

So while Islam by definition might be a religion of peace, current times show just the opposite is being professed in far too many places. So while many might try to lay the blame on 'occupations' or the ousting of terror regimes, the current problem that is being worked on by the USA and the UK is because of religious fanatics.

[hjmick]

I have always been under the impression that all religions, at least the widely recognized religions of today, were supposed to be and claimed to be "religions of peace." Over the centuries, the actions of some members of the various religions, if taken as a representation, would lead one to believe otherwise. But can you define an entire religion based on the actions of a relatively small percentage of it's members?

(Of course there are about 2 billion, that's billion with a "B," muslims in the world, and if only 2% of them hate the west and want to destroy it, well, that's a shitload of people who are feeling pretty butt hurt.)

If you can, I'd say it is the rare religion that has gone through history without causing some sort of anger and unrest. Furthermore, if you can indeed define a religion based on the actions of a minority of it's adherents, I'd say they all suck.

[actsnoblemartin]

With all due respect my friend, I think it unfair to suggest that if muslims were educated and rich, they would not be terrorists, and the whole problem would be solved.

Bin laden is rich, and the saudi, 15 of the 19 are rich.
This is not about economics, or education. This is about a group of mostly men, choosing to hate , based on what the koran says, according to them.


why don't these better educated and better off muslims go in and try to help then? bring the 'true' islam back to the ppl and start a reformation (?) so to speak instead of just going on how uneducated these poor ppl are.

[actsnoblemartin]

#1 it is not 2% of muslims who want the u.s. and israel dead. That is an outright lie, that the media has convinced you is true, The true number is atleast 5-10% of actual terrorists, and lets not forget those who finance it, those who stand by and do nothing, say nothing. Those actions, condone what the terrorists do. During the holocaust, there were those against it, who did nothing, by their actions, they condoned it too. Dont forget, all evil needs is a few good men, to sit by and do nothing.

Second, islam historically, from its birth to now, has been the most pro-war religion. The crusades were about gaining back land that the muslims stole from christians, yes the christians, killed jews along the way, and that was wrong. But by far, islam is the greatest threat today, and has been with war for over 1400 years

For you, or anyone to make any moral relavitive connection to islamic extremists in 2007, heck, islamic extremists in the last 60 years, with any other religions extremists, is unfortunently whether you mean it or not, an apology for radical islam, and excusing its bad behavior by pointing out other bad behavior.

muslims account for atleast 75% of the worlds terrorism, and they are persecuting christians in the name of allah. Even the war in iraq and afghanistan, is not about killing muslims in the name of jesus, and anyone who thinks that, is a liar, and an ignorant idiot.


I have always been under the impression that all religions, at least the widely recognized religions of today, were supposed to be and claimed to be "religions of peace." Over the centuries, the actions of some members of the various religions, if taken as a representation, would lead one to believe otherwise. But can you define an entire religion based on the actions of a relatively small percentage of it's members?

(Of course there are about 2 billion, that's billion with a "B," muslims in the world, and if only 2% of them hate the west and want to destroy it, well, that's a shitload of people who are feeling pretty butt hurt.)

If you can, I'd say it is the rare religion that has gone through history without causing some sort of anger and unrest. Furthermore, if you can indeed define a religion based on the actions of a minority of it's adherents, I'd say they all suck.

[actsnoblemartin]

To be fair. My only objection to the koran, is some of the verses that support and condone jihad. I think muslims should get rid of that. And then, Islam and muslims would have an easier time getting along with the west, because they would not hate us, and we would not be so annoyed by islam or the koran.

I just wanted to be very specific about why i dont like the koran, and that is the reason, I have an issue with islam. Also, the history of islams followers dating back to mohammeds death, islamic terrorism and conquest.

I have had muslim friends, and will continue to be open to any friend, regardless of religion, or any other thing.

So i dont wanna throw good muslims under the bus, not am i implying that anyone here is being unfair, im not talking about anyone else.

I just wanna be fair.

[hjmick]

#1 it is not 2% of muslims who want the u.s. and israel dead. That is an outright lie, that the media has convinced you is true, The true number is atleast 5-10% of actual terrorists, and lets not forget those who finance it, those who stand by and do nothing, say nothing. Those actions, condone what the terrorists do. During the holocaust, there were those against it, who did nothing, by their actions, they condoned it too. Dont forget, all evil needs is a few good men, to sit by and do nothing.

Second, islam historically, from its birth to now, has been the most pro-war religion. The crusades were about gaining back land that the muslims stole from christians, yes the christians, killed jews along the way, and that was wrong. But by far, islam is the greatest threat today, and has been with war for over 1400 years

For you, or anyone to make any moral relavitive connection to islamic extremists in 2007, heck, islamic extremists in the last 60 years, with any other religions extremists, is unfortunently whether you mean it or not, an apology for radical islam, and excusing its bad behavior by pointing out other bad behavior.

muslims account for atleast 75% of the worlds terrorism, and they are persecuting christians in the name of allah. Even the war in iraq and afghanistan, is not about killing muslims in the name of jesus, and anyone who thinks that, is a liar, and an ignorant idiot.

I did say "if only 2%," calling into question the actual number, it was just a base number for the sake of discussion. And it's not all Muslims who want us converted or dead, it's just the fundamentalists and that is still a disturbing number of people.

As for apologizing for radical Islam, I would never do any such thing. I was simply examining the actions of all religions throughout history, pointing out that, historically speaking, not one can claim to be better than the next. In fact, in my initial post, the only religion I specifically mentioned was Islam. Personally, I have no real use for any religion and rarely address religious topics. I merely wanted to point out that you can't define a group of people by the actions of a relatively small percentage of it's members. If you could, we Republicans would be in real trouble.

I was not excusing bad behavoir by pointing out the behavoir of others, that's not my bag.

As for the happenings in Afghanistan and Iraq, I am well aware that they are not about killing Muslims. All too aware.

[actsnoblemartin]

I do not believe, nor did i intend to say that you were apologizing for anyone. My point was, I felt, we should focus on one religion at a time, to speak of their role in history, but i do apologize if my words made it seem as if i thought you were an apologist. Some have said, christianity just as bad, using words similar to yours, but youre an honorable man, and i would never accuse you anything.

second, fair enough, who knows the exact number, 2%, 5%, 15% lol.

I agree with you also, we cant condome a whole religion, because some are idiots, or a-holes in their behaviour

Im not sucking up when i say, you do bring intelligent, charachter, and poise to any discussion you come in contact with.


I did say "if only 2%," calling into question the actual number, it was just a base number for the sake of discussion. And it's not all Muslims who want us converted or dead, it's just the fundamentalists and that is still a disturbing number of people.

As for apologizing for radical Islam, I would never do any such thing. I was simply examining the actions of all religions throughout history, pointing out that, historically speaking, not one can claim to be better than the next. In fact, in my initial post, the only religion I specifically mentioned was Islam. Personally, I have no real use for any religion and rarely address religious topics. I merely wanted to point out that you can't define a group of people by the actions of a relatively small percentage of it's members. If you could, we Republicans would be in real trouble.

I was not excusing bad behavoir by pointing out the behavoir of others, that's not my bag.

As for the happenings in Afghanistan and Iraq, I am well aware that they are not about killing Muslims. All too aware.

[Monkeybone]

that ain't what i meant Martin, sorry. i know that having more moeny wouldn't do near much of anything for 98% of those ppl. i was basically going off the point of Jafar's that stated it has something to do with the state that these ppl live in. if it is so bad, then why arn't more of their fellow muslims helping out it what i meant

[actsnoblemartin]

im sorry, I tend to misread alot. Please accept my apology.


that ain't what i meant Martin, sorry. i know that having more moeny wouldn't do near much of anything for 98% of those ppl. i was basically going off the point of Jafar's that stated it has something to do with the state that these ppl live in. if it is so bad, then why arn't more of their fellow muslims helping out it what i meant

[typomaniac]

To be fair. My only objection to the koran, is some of the verses that support and condone jihad. I think muslims should get rid of that. And then, Islam and muslims would have an easier time getting along with the west, because they would not hate us, and we would not be so annoyed by islam or the koran.
...I just wanna be fair.
In all fairness, it sounds like you don't know what the word "jihad" actually means. It translates to "struggle," which does not necessarily have anything to do with war, holy or otherwise.

The "struggle" the koran discusses in this context is nothing more than the struggle to live one's life according to God's will. The implication being that God does not want people to live according to the path of least resistance. I think most religions tend to agree with a similar philosophy.

[Gaffer]

that ain't what i meant Martin, sorry. i know that having more moeny wouldn't do near much of anything for 98% of those ppl. i was basically going off the point of Jafar's that stated it has something to do with the state that these ppl live in. if it is so bad, then why arn't more of their fellow muslims helping out it what i meant

jafar didn't take into account people like bin laden who is rich, his second in command who is a doctor, Many other educated men within al queda, then there were the doctors who tried to bomb a night club and airport in UK. The people that get arrested trying to do this stuff are educated. And not poor. The poor uneducated are used in Afghanistan and iraq as cannon fodder. The hijackers were all educated.

The muslims that sit on the sidelines are just as guilty as the ones who commit the terror acts. Their silence and inaction speaks volumes.

[actsnoblemartin]

The problem with any word is, regardless of what its original meaning or intent was, once it is used over and over again for something other then its original meaning or intention, the original meaning tends to fade, while the new definition takes it place.

Jihad now means killing non-muslims, and muslims who are not muslim enough.

The words fagget and nigger, have more then one meaning, but like every word, what is the word used for most.

Feel free to disagree, Im just giving my opinion.


In all fairness, it sounds like you don't know what the word "jihad" actually means. It translates to "struggle," which does not necessarily have anything to do with war, holy or otherwise.

The "struggle" the koran discusses in this context is nothing more than the struggle to live one's life according to God's will. The implication being that God does not want people to live according to the path of least resistance. I think most religions tend to agree with a similar philosophy.

[actsnoblemartin]

I could not have said it better myself, you are an honorable and extremely intelligent man.

:salute:


jafar didn't take into account people like bin laden who is rich, his second in command who is a doctor, Many other educated men within al queda, then there were the doctors who tried to bomb a night club and airport in UK. The people that get arrested trying to do this stuff are educated. And not poor. The poor uneducated are used in Afghanistan and iraq as cannon fodder. The hijackers were all educated.

The muslims that sit on the sidelines are just as guilty as the ones who commit the terror acts. Their silence and inaction speaks volumes.

[retiredman]

Having read this thread, I really find it funny to read non-muslims telling a muslim he doesn't know what he is talking about regarding his own religion.

Like a palestinian lecturing a catholic about christianity.

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,





jafar didn't take into account people like bin laden who is rich, his second in command who is a doctor, Many other educated men within al queda, then there were the doctors who tried to bomb a night club and airport in UK. The people that get arrested trying to do this stuff are educated. And not poor. The poor uneducated are used in Afghanistan and iraq as cannon fodder. The hijackers were all educated.

The muslims that sit on the sidelines are just as guilty as the ones who commit the terror acts. Their silence and inaction speaks volumes.




1. Yes, this is well said, I would rep you for it, but I must spread it around a little.
2. So I gave Maineman some neg reps. Hehehehehe,...........

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Gaffer]

Having read this thread, I really find it funny to read non-muslims telling a muslim he doesn't know what he is talking about regarding his own religion.

Like a palestinian lecturing a catholic about christianity.

How about non-muslims telling a muslim we don't buy what he's selling.

[actsnoblemartin]

Well, you dont have to be a muslim to understand islam, neither does an an atheist need to be a jew, to know judaism.

So yeah, we can know as much as , less then, or more then any man or woman.

Your argument doesnt make any sense.

non-muslims have every right to an opinion and critique of islam/the koran, as a buddhist has to criticism judasim, or a wiccan criticizing mormons, or pagans criticizing christians.

with all due respect, its silly to think, we should have some sort of profile, where only muslims can have this discussion.


Having read this thread, I really find it funny to read non-muslims telling a muslim he doesn't know what he is talking about regarding his own religion.

Like a palestinian lecturing a catholic about christianity.

[actsnoblemartin]

The muslim world has no room to criticize anyone if you look into history, they have been at war with non muslims and each other, since the beginning of the religion

And for the record, If i dont say ALL, then i dont mean all muslims.

Incase anyone forgets that :P

And yeah, we can learn about islam, and decide if we think its worthy, crap, or somewhere in between.

Every religion must have thin skin, and muslim cant even handle a dam cartoon. I would hate to see the simpsons in their countries (which they all stole from christians and jews)



Having read this thread, I really find it funny to read non-muslims telling a muslim he doesn't know what he is talking about regarding his own religion.

Like a palestinian lecturing a catholic about christianity.

[retiredman]

How about non-muslims telling a muslim we don't buy what he's selling.


your prerogative, certainly... however, your ignorance of Islam still prevents you from grasping what the muslim is trying to tell you.

[actsnoblemartin]

I dont know why manfrommaine, comes up with this crap.

We shouldnt have an opinion on islam, because were not muslims, what rubbish.

I have an opinion on football, and i never played in the nfl, I have an opinion, on canadians, and i never lived in canada.

I guess in his mind, you must be the exact thing you have an opinion on.

I respect his opinion, but i think its rubbish.


How about non-muslims telling a muslim we don't buy what he's selling.

[actsnoblemartin]

what are you his teacher?, what are you some scholar on islam?

Please, read the history books.

Your entitled to your opinion, but not to your own facts, islam carried out a global jihad right after mohammed death, and for 24 years, they nearly took over the entire world, until charles de martel, of france, stopped them.

You cant argue that, thats facts!.


your prerogative, certainly... however, your ignorance of Islam still prevents you from grasping what the muslim is trying to tell you.

[actsnoblemartin]

seems to me, your just calling him ignorant cause you dont agree with him, i see no evidence of him being ignorant, and if your going to make such an accusation, you need to have the guts to try and prove it.

You have laid out no evidence to support your claim sir, and with all due respect, I dont know why your so vigourously defending a religion, where if the radicals one, you would be dead or on a prayer rug.


your prerogative, certainly... however, your ignorance of Islam still prevents you from grasping what the muslim is trying to tell you.

[actsnoblemartin]

What the muslim man said, does not excuse the actions of those terrorists, and the terrorists routinely ignore that.

So either some muslims, dont care, or the part about peace in the koran is false, to make us think its peaceful

I can only go by history, and present.

And by all the religions, islam is the most fanatical, in its teaching, and its percentage of radicals in 2007 and for the last 60 years are the most dangerous by far.

Im not giving anyone a free pass, but if you have to assess a situation, you go for the most dangerous person, criminal, suspect first, not second.


your prerogative, certainly... however, your ignorance of Islam still prevents you from grasping what the muslim is trying to tell you.

[retiredman]

calm down marty...

no one suggested you can't have your opinion. Here is what I said:

Having read this thread, I really find it funny to read non-muslims telling a muslim he doesn't know what he is talking about regarding his own religion.

Like a palestinian lecturing a catholic about christianity.

YOU lecturing Jafar about Islam and telling him that what he says about his religion is incorrect, is just as silly as an muslim telling a roman catholic priest he doesn't know what he is talking about regarding the Bible.

[actsnoblemartin]

im not mad :laugh2:, i was actually worried, you would be mad, or offended by what i said. But i have no bone to pick with you, and have no intention of slandering, or talking smack to you.

I get your point now, but two questions.

who is qualified to be a scholar on islam?

is there more then one interpretation of islam :)

Sorry, if i seemed mad, i am not my friend :)


calm down marty...

no one suggested you can't have your opinion. Here is what I said:

Having read this thread, I really find it funny to read non-muslims telling a muslim he doesn't know what he is talking about regarding his own religion.

Like a palestinian lecturing a catholic about christianity.

YOU lecturing Jafar about Islam and telling him that what he says about his religion is incorrect, is just as silly as an muslim telling a roman catholic priest he doesn't know what he is talking about regarding the Bible.

[retiredman]

and when you have a moment, please provide the scholarly basis for this claim you made:

it is not 2% of muslims who want the u.s. and israel dead. That is an outright lie, that the media has convinced you is true, The true number is atleast 5-10% of actual terrorists

the TRUE number? LOL

you pulled THAT number right out of your ass.

[actsnoblemartin]

Ive heard medis reports that say its 5-10%.

But i ask you a question, before i get my link.

How many muslims in the world, are silent and dont condemn terrorism in their name?

how many muslims finance terrorism?

how many, hate the u.s.a and israel, dont participate, but are sympathetic to the bin ladens of the world

How many muslims give training to terrorists and/or teach them in hate filled madrassas over the world

I cant for a moment believe that is 2%.


and when you have a moment, please provide the scholarly basis for this claim you made:

it is not 2% of muslims who want the u.s. and israel dead. That is an outright lie, that the media has convinced you is true, The true number is atleast 5-10% of actual terrorists

the TRUE number? LOL

you pulled THAT number right out of your ass.

[actsnoblemartin]

how about this too chew on first mate, he is not christian, and he says point blank , muslims are responsible for most terrorism.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40367

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wosse605.xml

[actsnoblemartin]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1327786/posts

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/international_security_bt/221.php?nid=&id=&pnt=221&lb=btis

This is certainly not 2%. My point is not to say 100% or even 50% of muslims, are terrorists, but I think its nieve, and untrue, that only 2% are terrorists, or terrorists sympathizers.

[retiredman]

Ive heard medis reports that say its 5-10%.

But i ask you a question, before i get my link.

How many muslims in the world, are silent and dont condemn terrorism in their name?

how many muslims finance terrorism?

how many, hate the u.s.a and israel, dont participate, but are sympathetic to the bin ladens of the world

How many muslims give training to terrorists and/or teach them in hate filled madrassas over the world

I cant for a moment believe that is 2%.

here is something you need to understand: what you can or cannot for a moment believe has little bearing on facts.

SILENT? I don't think there are many muslims who are silent about islamic extremism...but many muslims would prefer not to get involved....many muslims would prefer not to anger that 2% in their midst who ARE violent.

Besides mildly voicing their disapproval, what do the vast majority of Christians in America do to stop Operation Rescue?

and where do you think the money comes from to finance terrorism? from collection plates at mosques all over the middle east? no. it comes from petrodollars.

And many muslims dislike America, but that does not mean that they dislike Americans. Nearly all of the muslims I have ever met were opposed to America's uncritical support for Israel, but were quite cordial and friendly and peaceful to me personally.

[actsnoblemartin]

I pulled these from the web not my ass, and unless your a female, please refraind from talking about my ass


:lol:

http://libertyfirst.wordpress.com/2007/05/26/the-fairytale-of-the-poor-and-angry-terrorists-aicgs-advisor/

Oh, and this is NOT 2%, although Im not really arguing with you, but you did call me out, so it will be nice, if you admit, you were wrong, i doubt it, but whatever

On the other hand, 13 percent of U.S. Muslims say that suicide bombings can be justified to defend Islam. And according to the poll, 5 percent of American Muslims have a favorable view of Al Qaeda.

and this is in the u.s., for god sakes :P

[actsnoblemartin]

http://www.iris.org.il/blog/

I dont think half, is 2%, then again, i was never good at math :cool:

Islamists Taking Control of British Mosques


While the West sleeps:

Almost half of Britain's mosques are under the control of a hardline Islamic sect whose leading preacher loathes Western values and has called on Muslims to "shed blood" for Allah, an investigation by The Times has found.

Riyadh ul-Haq, who supports armed jihad and preaches contempt for Jews, Christians and Hindus, is in line to become the spiritual leader of the Deobandi sect in Britain.

The ultra-conservative movement, which gave birth to the Taliban in Afghanistan, now runs more than 600 of Britain's 1,350 mosques, according to a police report.

Ul-Haq, 36, was educated and trained at an Islamic seminary in Britain and is part of a new generation of British imams who share a similar radical agenda.

17 of Britain's 26 Islamic seminaries are run by Deobandis and they produce 80% of home-trained Muslim clerics.

[actsnoblemartin]

Hollywood afraid to go after radical muslims

http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/08/hollywoods-terr.html

Despite ample material in today’s world, the film ‘September Dawn’ chooses to travel back to the 1800s to disparage a safer target: the LDS Church

[retiredman]

op-ed pieces and articles about muslims in britain?

that is what you have come up with?

these are your "facts"?



:lol:

[actsnoblemartin]

Perhaps we should listen to ex muslims, since they probably know about islam right?

http://www.islam-watch.org/

[actsnoblemartin]

only 2%, yeah right :laugh2:

http://www.pursuingholiness.com/2007/02/19/the-tiny-percentage-of-radical-islamists/

[Gaffer]

your prerogative, certainly... however, your ignorance of Islam still prevents you from grasping what the muslim is trying to tell you.

Your own ignorance of islam and denial of its true malevolence prevents you from seeing what is going on in islam. The muslim is telling me he is not like the fundamentalists that have taken over islam. Of course he's a shite and doesn't follow the teaching that bin laden does. His leanings are toward iran. Two parts of the same religion. And each thinks of the other as non-muslim.

[retiredman]

Perhaps we should listen to ex muslims, since they probably know about islam right?

http://www.islam-watch.org/

do you have an editorial from that list that you would prefer I start with?



and are you really suggesting that op-ed pieces are the factual basis by which you can claim that the TRUE number of muslims who are terrorists worldwide is 5-10%

[actsnoblemartin]

http://www.popularalliance.org/content/view/81/9/

Statistics from 1960 to 2006 confirms that 95% of all terrorist acts are the result of Islam therefore if just 20% of Muslims are fundamentalists; they are 3,000% more violent than the rest of the world.



There are between 1.2 and 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. Half are women. While a substantial percentage of Islamic women support jihad, less than one in fifty Islamic terrorist acts is actually perpetrated by a female. That leaves us with a maximum pool of jihadists that is just over 50% of the total population.

The overwhelming preponderance of terrorist acts are conducted by young Muslim men 15 to 30 years old. This age bracket covers about half of the male population of the Islamic world, leaving us with a potential jihad pool of 25% of all Muslims - approximately 300 million people.


Therefore, based upon the most objective data available to us, at least 60% of all Muslims have the potential to be jihadists by way of their fundamentalist voting patterns. That is to say, Islam has grown substantially closer to its salafi, and thus terrorist, roots over the past decade. It is safe to say that 750 million Muslims are fundamentalists trying to follow Allah's orders and Muhammad's example. And as fundamentalists, they are potential jihadists.

If the 60% response levels derived from polling data is an accurate reflection of the current state of Islam, then sex and age criteria further reduce Islamic terrorist candidates down to a maximum of one in every seven Muslims - 25% of 60%. That means that no more than 15% of the total Islamic population of 1.2 to 1.5 billion people has the potential to be a terrorist should the opportunity arise. That equates to a minimum of 180 million potential jihadists and a maximum of 225 million.

That means that no more than 15% of the total Islamic population of 1.2 to 1.5 billion people has the potential to be a terrorist should the opportunity arise.

[retiredman]

Your own ignorance of islam and denial of its true malevolence prevents you from seeing what is going on in islam. The muslim is telling me he is not like the fundamentalists that have taken over islam. Of course he's a shite and doesn't follow the teaching that bin laden does. His leanings are toward iran. Two parts of the same religion. And each thinks of the other as non-muslim.

are you suggesting that any appreciable percentage of sunnis worldwide "follow the teachings that bin laden does"?

[actsnoblemartin]

Evidence is evidence.

Funny, I dont see you giving me evidence to counter-act my evidence, so you must try and tear down my proof lol.

Ironic.

Only if it agrees with you, does it count lol

QUOTE=manfrommaine;119703]do you have an editorial from that list that you would prefer I start with?



and are you really suggesting that op-ed pieces are the factual basis by which you can claim that the TRUE number of muslims who are terrorists worldwide is 5-10%[/QUOTE]

[retiredman]

marty:

you posted a link that contained a list of editorial pieces. I asked you if you had any in particular that you would like me to read.

And you really need to understand the difference between opinion and fact.

[actsnoblemartin]

From a Former muslim. Of course, your the one who said, we cant tell the muslim kid what his religion is like, so according to you, an ex muslim, should have his opinion respect not ridiculed and torn down, just cause you dont agree with it.


do you have an editorial from that list that you would prefer I start with?



and are you really suggesting that op-ed pieces are the factual basis by which you can claim that the TRUE number of muslims who are terrorists worldwide is 5-10%

[actsnoblemartin]

http://www.islam-watch.org/CSKarlson/Islam-Muhammad-Lust-for-Empire3.htm


do you have an editorial from that list that you would prefer I start with?



and are you really suggesting that op-ed pieces are the factual basis by which you can claim that the TRUE number of muslims who are terrorists worldwide is 5-10%

[retiredman]

and I suppose that you consider this statement as factual:

That means that no more than 15% of the total Islamic population of 1.2 to 1.5 billion people has the potential to be a terrorist should the opportunity arise.

and this opinion as to some theoretical maximum number of muslims who have THE POTENTIAL to be a terrorist is synonymous with them actually being terrorists, in your mind.

I wonder how many murderers there are in America using that same criteria?

Do you have the potential to kill someone?

[actsnoblemartin]

You cant debate this fact, after allah died, muslims in armied of 3-4 thousand went on a global jihad, and stole many countries from christians, and have always treated non muslims as second class citizens, to this day still treating them as second class citizens.

http://www.islam-watch.org/Others/Allah-god-of-war.htm

[actsnoblemartin]

i think she might know something about islam.

http://www.islam-watch.org/AyanHirsi/My-View-of-Islam.htm

[retiredman]

http://www.islam-watch.org/CSKarlson/Islam-Muhammad-Lust-for-Empire3.htm

and this C.S. Karlson fellow is a muslim?

[actsnoblemartin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Martel

read about him, he was the first, but not the last to save the world from radical islam.

He is best remembered for winning the Battle of Tours in 732, which has traditionally been characterized as an event that saved Europe from the Islamic expansionism that had conquered Iberia.

So, if you try and spin, or dodge the truth on this fact, well I wont need to say what you are, i proved my point.

:laugh2:

[retiredman]

i think she might know something about islam.

http://www.islam-watch.org/AyanHirsi/My-View-of-Islam.htm


she certainly can have an opinion.

doesn't prove that 10% of muslims are terrorists.

still waiting for that.

[retiredman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Martel

read about him, he was the first, but not the last to save the world from radical islam.

He is best remembered for winning the Battle of Tours in 732, which has traditionally been characterized as an event that saved Europe from the Islamic expansionism that had conquered Iberia.

So, if you try and spin, or dodge the truth on this fact, well I wont need to say what you are, i proved my point.

:laugh2:


to claim that muslims from 732 are at all representative of modern day muslims is as silly as claiming that the actions of the spanish inquisition are representative of modern day christians.

get real

[actsnoblemartin]

Ive given you numerous example of country by country, where more then 5% of muslims support jihad.

and other articles.

Do some research yourself.


she certainly can have an opinion.

doesn't prove that 10% of muslims are terrorists.

still waiting for that.

[retiredman]

Ive given you numerous example of country by country, where more then 5% of muslims support jihad.

and other articles.

Do some research yourself.


bullshit. you have given me britain. big deal. now if you could show me that more than 5% of the residents of Indonesia supported jihad....or Egypt...or Saudi Arabia or Nigeria or Russia or Bangladesh.... that would be something. If you could show me that 3 to 10% of 1.5BILLION people were terrorists, I suppose you would have done so by now.

[Gaffer]

opinions don't count according to maine. Whether they contain facts or not. Everything written is an opinion whether based on a belief or on facts. To blow something off as just an opinion is just denying any willingness to accept facts that get in the way of your beliefs.

maine, your ready to accept the muslims opinion as fact but all other facts and opinions are wrong. Can you see what's wrong with this?

[retiredman]

I have never said that I was ready to accept anyone's opinion as fact regardless of their religion.

I asked YOU if you believed that sunnis followed the teachings that bin laden does....

[actsnoblemartin]

Let me get this straight, you dont think islamic extremists have the same idea of taking over the world. Your living in wonderland.
Radical islam is no different today that it was in 732

So Yes, Read your history, and listen to what the islamic extremists want now, and you will see it is the same.




to claim that muslims from 732 are at all representative of modern day muslims is as silly as claiming that the actions of the spanish inquisition are representative of modern day christians.

get real

[actsnoblemartin]

still, not 2%.

Scroll down

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=257

[actsnoblemartin]

Read under a tiny minority of extremists: I have two sources on terrorism, that say it is not 2%.

Ill take my apology now, for calling me out, and being dead wrong mr. :laugh2:

http://books.google.com/books?id=_7RD2jwMU2wC&dq=islam:+what+percentage+of+muslims+are+islamic+t errorists&pg=PA192&ots=Q18hZtu6PP&sig=eCTvTzLL40nWzv0zN8pDv0Q773Y&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Dislam%253A%2Bwhat%2Bpercent age%2Bof%2Bmuslims%2Bare%2Bislamic%2Bterrorists%26 btnG%3DSearch&sa=X&oi=print&ct=result&cd=1

[actsnoblemartin]

boo yah. Wrong wrong wrong, you are .

Islam expert Robert Spencer reveals Islam's ongoing, unshakable quest for global conquest and why the West today faces the same threat as the Crusaders did-and what we can learn from their experience.

[actsnoblemartin]

I have opinions, and i have historical record, that proved what i said. I honestly do not believe, and its nothing personal. That I could have every expert on islam in front of me, and you still wouldnt believe me.




marty:

you posted a link that contained a list of editorial pieces. I asked you if you had any in particular that you would like me to read.

And you really need to understand the difference between opinion and fact.

[actsnoblemartin]

my opinion, NOT fact

:lol:

Manfrommaine is stubborn and never agree with me, even if im right.


opinions don't count according to maine. Whether they contain facts or not. Everything written is an opinion whether based on a belief or on facts. To blow something off as just an opinion is just denying any willingness to accept facts that get in the way of your beliefs.

maine, your ready to accept the muslims opinion as fact but all other facts and opinions are wrong. Can you see what's wrong with this?

[actsnoblemartin]

I dont think he will believe anything i will say, even though, i have robert spence a huge expert, and daniel pipes, a guy who spent his whole life learning about islam.

Nope, they dont agree with him, so i doubt he will agree with me.

Facts dont matter, if they dont agree with you.

Perhaps that human nature lol :laugh2:


opinions don't count according to maine. Whether they contain facts or not. Everything written is an opinion whether based on a belief or on facts. To blow something off as just an opinion is just denying any willingness to accept facts that get in the way of your beliefs.

maine, your ready to accept the muslims opinion as fact but all other facts and opinions are wrong. Can you see what's wrong with this?

[actsnoblemartin]

you could get off you bum :laugh2: and do alittle research too you know.

Its easy for your too just sit back, and not do any work here mr. :poke:

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=248

I dont have a magic wand, it takes time and effort to search the net, and alot of information is hidden, because people dont want you to see things that criticize islam in any way.

So gimme a break and quit complaining, i never said I was a librarian :dance:

bullshit. you have given me britain. big deal. now if you could show me that more than 5% of the residents of Indonesia supported jihad....or Egypt...or Saudi Arabia or Nigeria or Russia or Bangladesh.... that would be something. If you could show me that 3 to 10% of 1.5BILLION people were terrorists, I suppose you would have done so by now.

[actsnoblemartin]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0223/p09s01-coop.html

still more then 5%

Contrast those numbers with 2006 polling results from the world's most-populous Muslim countries – Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Nigeria. Terror Free Tomorrow, the organization I lead, found that 74 percent of respondents in Indonesia agreed that terrorist attacks are "never justified"; in Pakistan, that figure was 86 percent; in Bangladesh, 81 percent.

[Gaffer]

I have never said that I was ready to accept anyone's opinion as fact regardless of their religion.

I asked YOU if you believed that sunnis followed the teachings that bin laden does....

Since he's a sunni they obviously do. But he's a wahabist sunni.

And based on your criteria about opinions you can't accept anything as fact. Not even your own opinions.

I'm off to bed now, you all have a good night. And don't believe yourself for a minute maine.

[jimnyc]

Having read this thread, I really find it funny to read non-muslims telling a muslim he doesn't know what he is talking about regarding his own religion.

Like a palestinian lecturing a catholic about christianity.

Let me ask you a question, MFM.

Let's suppose it were a fact that Christians were committing suicide attacks on an almost daily basis. These Christians were videotaping their events, or having an organization accept responsibility after the fact, and proclaiming they committed these acts in the name of God. These Christians were committing these acts in multiple countries. These Christians stated that anyone who wasn't a Christian was an enemy. These Christians have reached out to other Christians and have asked them to declare war against non-Christians, and to kill them wherever they may see them. And let's assume there are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of these Christians that believed this was the true way to represent their religion.

Would a Palestinian be so wrong for stating that there is a current problem with Christianity? Would a Palestinian be wrong for expecting those claiming this is a 'small faction' of Christians committing these acts to possibly learn to educate those less informed about 'true' Christianity?

[retiredman]

Let me get this straight, you dont think islamic extremists have the same idea of taking over the world. Your living in wonderland.
Radical islam is no different today that it was in 732

So Yes, Read your history, and listen to what the islamic extremists want now, and you will see it is the same.


let me get this straight: do you keep switching back and forth between Islamic extremists and muslims in general out of ignorance or chicanery?

I DO think that Islamic extremists want to take over a portion of the world... I think that in the writings of their modern day philosophers, they clearly want to turn back the hands of time and re-establish a glorious Islamic caliphate stretching from the Mediterranean to the Bengal Sea.

I DO NOT think that they represent the opinions or hopes or dreams or aspirations of the VAST majority of this world's Islamic community any more than Torquemada or Fred Phelps did or does represent the VAST majority of the world's Christians.

[retiredman]

and as I have said ad nauseum, there is a HUGE difference between nationalist organizations that happen to use terror as a tactic and Islamic extremists who not only use terror as a tactic, but whose long range strategic objective is so profoundly disruptive.

The PLO has way more in common with the IRA than it does with AQ.

[retiredman]

Let me ask you a question, MFM.

Let's suppose it were a fact that Christians were committing suicide attacks on an almost daily basis. These Christians were videotaping their events, or having an organization accept responsibility after the fact, and proclaiming they committed these acts in the name of God. These Christians were committing these acts in multiple countries. These Christians stated that anyone who wasn't a Christian was an enemy. These Christians have reached out to other Christians and have asked them to declare war against non-Christians, and to kill them wherever they may see them. And let's assume there are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of these Christians that believed this was the true way to represent their religion.

Would a Palestinian be so wrong for stating that there is a current problem with Christianity? Would a Palestinian be wrong for expecting those claiming this is a 'small faction' of Christians committing these acts to possibly learn to educate those less informed about 'true' Christianity?

He would be wrong to say that there is a current problem with Christianity. In a world where there are over two billion Christians, "thousand upon thousands" is still a drop in the bucket.

He would be correct in saying that there is a problem within the Christian Church....he would be right in saying that a tiny portion of Christians had gone astray from the teachings of Jesus.

And I do not think that this is an issue of moderate muslims not stepping up to "educate those less informed about 'true' Islam". That is sort of like automobile drivers asking why the huge numbers of law abiding, helmet wearing motorcycle and vespa riders are not trying to educate the world about how different they are than the Hell's Angels.

And the idea of a little school teacher riding a vespa up to a Pagan's gathering and chastising them for ruining the image of law abiding motorbike riders everywhere... is patently ridiculous.

[Roomy]

If we took religion out of the equation, how would we describe the terrorists?

Stinking middle eastern rag wearing bastards:laugh2:Whoops still tarring them all with the same brush:laugh2:

[actsnoblemartin]

I understand, but Im sure you realize my friend. It is not always easy to find information online, it took me a long time, to find any concrete proof of the 5-10% thing.

My point is, even if i didnt find it, doesnt make it not true.

Besides, were arguing a silly point.

We both want to go after and kill terrorists, were both americans, were both on the same team.


here is something you need to understand: what you can or cannot for a moment believe has little bearing on facts.

SILENT? I don't think there are many muslims who are silent about islamic extremism...but many muslims would prefer not to get involved....many muslims would prefer not to anger that 2% in their midst who ARE violent.

Besides mildly voicing their disapproval, what do the vast majority of Christians in America do to stop Operation Rescue?

and where do you think the money comes from to finance terrorism? from collection plates at mosques all over the middle east? no. it comes from petrodollars.

And many muslims dislike America, but that does not mean that they dislike Americans. Nearly all of the muslims I have ever met were opposed to America's uncritical support for Israel, but were quite cordial and friendly and peaceful to me personally.

I understand that many muslims might not want to get involved, but then again, all evil needs is for good men to do nothing. And, while some or most of them say nothing out of fear of getting killed, some simply support what they are doing, and some, dont support it, but will not stand up, and say, not in our name.

During the holocaust, and the civil rights movement, some whites, who were against racism, said nothing. Therefore inadvertantly condoning it.

More muslims need to speak up against extremists.

And im sorry but i dont know about operation rescue, and the christian thing your talking about, is petro dollars someting to do with oil?

alot of muslims, are either ignorant of history of israel, or just dont care about it.

The U.S. favors israel, because they are an ally, and most of the time, they are in the right. Notice i didnt say perfect :P

[retiredman]

you need to edit that so folks can figure out who said what....

[actsnoblemartin]

I was not sticking to the topic, you have no idea how hard it was to find what i was looking for, but i didnt wanna say that, because you would say, that proves im wrong.

But that is not true, not being able to find something online, doesnt make it untrue.

at the end of the day, we both have opinions were trying to proove.


I dont think we can compare islamic extremists who wanna take over the world, with bad americans who might murder people, just apples and oranges. sorry :)

and I suppose that you consider this statement as factual:

That means that no more than 15% of the total Islamic population of 1.2 to 1.5 billion people has the potential to be a terrorist should the opportunity arise.

and this opinion as to some theoretical maximum number of muslims who have THE POTENTIAL to be a terrorist is synonymous with them actually being terrorists, in your mind.

I wonder how many murderers there are in America using that same criteria?

Do you have the potential to kill someone?

[actsnoblemartin]

I dont honestly know, I was only referring to the man who runs the website, at the beginning when i gave you the website, and it said, an ex muslim. I did not go through all the articles, i did one or two, but i dont believe that one.

I dont believe you have to be a muslim to become an expert on islam.

There are men who are terrorism experts, now, they may never have been in armed forces, cia, or anything directly to terrorism accept college courses for all i know

Im saying, do you have to be something, to study it, and learn about it?


and this C.S. Karlson fellow is a muslim?

[retiredman]

I dont think we can compare islamic extremists who wanna take over the world, with bad americans who might murder people, just apples and oranges. sorry :)

you missed my point

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,

1. But what ( I ) *The Great CWN* has noticed, and its all over the Democratic Neoliberals Party, is this.
2. Both the *Democratic Neoliberal Party*, and *The Terrorists OBL* are working for the same goal.
3. Their talking points intersect.
4. They seem to be working on the same side, with common goals.
5. *The Terrorists* want to take over the World, while *The Democrats Neoliberal Party* want to take over The United States.
6. Both seem hell bent on tearing down America.
7. And it doesn't matter from what prospective you are coming from, if your a Neoliberal, you unknowingly help *Islamic Terrorism.*

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[retiredman]

I dont honestly know, I was only referring to the man who runs the website, at the beginning when i gave you the website, and it said, an ex muslim. I did not go through all the articles, i did one or two, but i dont believe that one.

I dont believe you have to be a muslim to become an expert on islam.

There are men who are terrorism experts, now, they may never have been in armed forces, cia, or anything directly to terrorism accept college courses for all i know

Im saying, do you have to be something, to study it, and learn about it?

I never claimed that.

I am making a guess here.... I am guessing that you are NOT an erudite Islamic scholar. I am guessing that, considering that Jafar IS a muslim, what he knows about Islam is overwhelmingly more than what you know about Islam. I am guessing that when you claim that what Jafar says about Islam is just wrong.... that he chuckles as much as I do.

And, to summarize my thoughts...if we think that the way to convince muslims to stop killing us is by invading, conquering and occupying their countries and, in so doing killing a lot of muslims, we need to be prepared to invade, conquer and kill every muslim on earth.

[actsnoblemartin]

Im sorry, but my point was, extremists muslims of 732, are the same as today.

I am not saying moderate muslims, and islam in general is the same then as it was now.

I was only referring to islamic extremists.


to claim that muslims from 732 are at all representative of modern day muslims is as silly as claiming that the actions of the spanish inquisition are representative of modern day christians.

get real

[retiredman]

Im sorry, but my point was, extremists muslims of 732, are the same as today.

I am not saying moderate muslims, and islam in general is the same then as it was now.

I was only referring to islamic extremists.

I agree with you. Christian extremists today are, in many ways, very similar to Torquemada.

The problem is NOT Islam. The problem is crazy people.

[actsnoblemartin]

No need to insult me. I have made it clear my position. I just want to be clear once and for all, i make distinctions between good and bad muslims. I dont think that is a bad thing.

i think comparing islamic extremists to other extremists is minimizing the issue, inadvertently apologizing for islamic extremists by pointing out others bad behaviour.

We dont have fred phelps all over the world who want to over the world, and kill non-christians in the name of christ, as a matter of fact, globally speaking. Muslims are not being persecuted to any level close that non muslims are.



let me get this straight: do you keep switching back and forth between Islamic extremists and muslims in general out of ignorance or chicanery?

I DO think that Islamic extremists want to take over a portion of the world... I think that in the writings of their modern day philosophers, they clearly want to turn back the hands of time and re-establish a glorious Islamic caliphate stretching from the Mediterranean to the Bengal Sea.

I DO NOT think that they represent the opinions or hopes or dreams or aspirations of the VAST majority of this world's Islamic community any more than Torquemada or Fred Phelps did or does represent the VAST majority of the world's Christians.

[actsnoblemartin]

The PLO wanted to kill all jews, rather then share israel with the jews, in a two state solution. The ira wanted independence from a country that stole control of its country.

Two different things.

Infact, there was never a country called palestine, so again, your comparison of ira, to plo. Is completely off base.

I wish you would stick to topic, and stop comparing muslims extremists to other extremists, whether you want to admit it or not, the vast majority of terrorism in the world is committed by muslims, and your comparisons, are wrong, and and not helpful

when you try to say that only 2% of muslims are terrorists, and ignore those who finance it, and who give aid and comfort to terrorists, im frankly sad. Your minimizing the problem. Your entitled to your opinion, and im entitled to think your wrong.

Then again, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink :coffee:

and as I have said ad nauseum, there is a HUGE difference between nationalist organizations that happen to use terror as a tactic and Islamic extremists who not only use terror as a tactic, but whose long range strategic objective is so profoundly disruptive.

The PLO has way more in common with the IRA than it does with AQ.

[actsnoblemartin]

oh sorry, thanks for pointing that out.


you need to edit that so folks can figure out who said what....

[actsnoblemartin]

well im sorry, it isnt because im not listening or dont care. I simply misread, please tell me what your point is sir.


you missed my point

[actsnoblemartin]

I will reluctantly admit, that I probably know less then jafar about islam. However, that doesnt make him an expert either.

Wait when did i say jafar was wrong about anything?. I have not commented on anything he has said.

Until I respond directly to something he says, and say youre wrong jafar, then i dont think, im calling him wrong about anything.

Now, I might have said something indirectly about, extremists muslims ignore the koran parts they dont like. And that i do not believe that a muslim who commits a crime is not a muslim. Because, how can they claim verses from the koran, and say they are doing it for allah, and then not be muslims, these men... most of them study at madrassa, and can probably quote you any verse from the koran they want.

I agree and disagree on the last part of your comments. I dont think invading countries is helpful, unless actually, key word , actually neccesary. And the u.s. does not go around killing people indiscriminently, so i take offense to your comment, in so doing killing a lot of muslims, because I dont believe its true. Al queda is responsible for who they kill not us. If we kill some people, which im sure we have, then, thats on us. But thats not right or fair, to put all the blame on america, when we dont make car bombs, and slit peoples throat, i.e. al queda has to be responsible for who they kill.

You dont honestly think i want to invade every muslim country do you ?:laugh2:




I never claimed that.

I am making a guess here.... I am guessing that you are NOT an erudite Islamic scholar. I am guessing that, considering that Jafar IS a muslim, what he knows about Islam is overwhelmingly more than what you know about Islam. I am guessing that when you claim that what Jafar says about Islam is just wrong.... that he chuckles as much as I do.

And, to summarize my thoughts...if we think that the way to convince muslims to stop killing us is by invading, conquering and occupying their countries and, in so doing killing a lot of muslims, we need to be prepared to invade, conquer and kill every muslim on earth.

[actsnoblemartin]

Im sorry but i do not know what torquemada is?.

Second, those people are not crazy, they are brainwashed at madrassas. But they are not mentally ill, they ARE responsible for their actions, but if you say their crazy, they are not legally responsible for that they do.

the problem is the violent jihad parts of islam, I dont know what percentage of the book that is. But if you must know, im not a big fan of every passage in any book.

i dont think we can compare muslim extremists to others, christians extremists, are not a global threat, there are many more muslim, then any other extremist.

Why dont we just agree to disagree.


I agree with you. Christian extremists today are, in many ways, very similar to Torquemada.

The problem is NOT Islam. The problem is crazy people.

[typomaniac]

The problem with any word is, regardless of what its original meaning or intent was, once it is used over and over again for something other then its original meaning or intention, the original meaning tends to fade, while the new definition takes it place.

Jihad now means killing non-muslims, and muslims who are not muslim enough.

The words fagget and nigger, have more then one meaning, but like every word, what is the word used for most.

Feel free to disagree, Im just giving my opinion.
The meaning of jihad as "struggle" is alive and well, Martin. Anyone who speaks Arabic knows it.

I was just addressing the point that living one's life according to God's will is a struggle in any monotheistic religion, and that we can't just throw out that concept, as you suggested earlier.

[glockmail]

I never claimed that.

I am making a guess here.... I am guessing that you are NOT an erudite Islamic scholar. I am guessing that, considering that Jafar IS a muslim, what he knows about Islam is overwhelmingly more than what you know about Islam. I am guessing that when you claim that what Jafar says about Islam is just wrong.... that he chuckles as much as I do.

And, to summarize my thoughts...if we think that the way to convince muslims to stop killing us is by invading, conquering and occupying their countries and, in so doing killing a lot of muslims, we need to be prepared to invade, conquer and kill every muslim on earth. If Jafar is such an expert then why can't he answer some simple questions about Islam?

Big surprise, a liberal siding with a muzzy; both intent on destruction of the US. :pee:

[retiredman]

there is a line between simple and moronic.... you never can quite get above it.

Jafar - and anyone else with a brain = can answer simple questions about their areas of interest and expertise.... but no one needs to bother with moronic questions.

If and when you learn the difference and are somehow able to get the intellect transplant needed to put that learning to use, and you can, in fact, come up with some simple questions, I am sure that Jafar will be more than happy to answer them.

[glockmail]

Again insults and deflection. Big surprise there. :pee:

[retiredman]

quote me a "simple question" that Jafar has failed to answer.

I'll wait.

by the way....do none of the other smilies work on your computer, or does the sight of a uninating monkey give you a chubbie? You do seem somewhat obsessed with using that one.

[glockmail]

Quote your own shit liberal moron. And open up wide: :pee:

[typomaniac]

Why glock's sorry, wizened ass never gets banned around here is a total mystery to me. He goes out of his way to break every mod-imposed rule.

:flameth: :pee:

[retiredman]

If Jafar is such an expert then why can't he answer some simple questions about Islam?

so you really can't back up this flatulence with any "solid" matter?

I didn't think so. Rest assured, it is still just as "fragrant".

[jafar00]

If Jafar is such an expert then why can't he answer some simple questions about Islam?


Give me a simple question about Islam then. :P

I would have answered more of the posts in this thread, but by the time I did, the thread has moved along another 4 pages and the subject has changed. I don't live here, so I can't keep up. :D

[glockmail]

Give me a simple question about Islam then. :P

I would have answered more of the posts in this thread, but by the time I did, the thread has moved along another 4 pages and the subject has changed. I don't live here, so I can't keep up. :D

If Jesus is seen as a "great phophet", then why do the teachings of Mohamed contradict the teachings of Jesus?

[retiredman]

I will reluctantly admit, that I probably know less then jafar about islam. However, that doesnt make him an expert either.

Wait when did i say jafar was wrong about anything?. I have not commented on anything he has said.
Until I respond directly to something he says, and say youre wrong jafar, then i dont think, im calling him wrong about anything.




do yourself a favor and reread post #9

[jafar00]

If Jesus is seen as a "great phophet", then why do the teachings of Mohamed contradict the teachings of Jesus?

In what way does the message in the Qur'aan contradict the message given to Jesus(upon him peace)?

[theHawk]

In what way does the message in the Qur'aan contradict the message given to Jesus(upon him peace)?

Mainly Muslims do not believe in Original Sin, that people are born free of sin, and there is no need for a Savior.

They also have no concept of the idea of the Trinity. The Qur'an speaks of it as if its 3 gods, Allah, Jesus, and Mary (Surah 5:116). They do not understand that its simply one God revealed to mankind through three manifestations. Jesus's mother,Mary, is certainly not one of them, which is further proof the 'prophet' Muhammed had no idea what he was talking about, or he was a liar. I'm inclinded to believe the latter.

Jesus said that he and the Father are one:
John Chapter 10
29The Father, for what he has given me, is greater than anyone, and no one can steal anything from the Father's hand.
30 The Father and I are one.
31The Jews fetched stones to stone him,
32 so Jesus said to them, 'I have shown you many good works from my Father; for which of these are you stoning me?'
33 The Jews answered him, 'We are stoning you, not for doing a good work, but for blasphemy; though you are only a man, you claim to be God.'
34 Jesus answered: Is it not written in your Law: I said, you are gods?
35 So it uses the word 'gods' of those people to whom the word of God was addressed-and scripture cannot be set aside.
36 Yet to someone whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world you say, 'You are blaspheming' because I said, 'I am Son of God.'
37 If I am not doing my Father's work, there is no need to believe me;
38 but if I am doing it, then even if you refuse to believe in me, at least believe in the work I do; then you will know for certain that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.

They also do not believe in the divinity of Jesus, yet in the bible when he was tempted by the devil, Jesus responded -
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt THE LORD THY GOD." (Matthew 4:7)

Sura 4:171-173 blantantly contradicts what Jesus taught.
[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.

[4:172] The Messiah would never disdain from being a servant of GOD, nor would the closest angels. Those who disdain from worshipping Him, and are too arrogant to submit, He will summon them all before Him.

[4:173] As for those who believe and lead a righteous life, He will fully recompense them, and shower them with His grace. As for those who disdain and turn arrogant, He will commit them to painful retribution. They will find no lord beside GOD, nor a savior.

Yet Jesus spoke of himself seated at the right hand of the Father.


But from now on, the Son of man will be seated at the right hand of the Power of God.' --Luke 22:69

also...

Since you have been raised up to be with Christ, you must look for the things that are above, where Christ is, sitting at God's right hand. --Collosians 3:1


I think its pretty clear to anyone using the brain God gave them that the Qur'an contradicts Jesus's message pretty clearly.

[glockmail]

In what way does the message in the Qur'aan contradict the message given to Jesus(upon him peace)? Poor attempt at a straw man. Why not answer the simple question that I posed instead of incorrectly quoting me?