Surprise! Teachers Are Not In Favor Of Relaxing School Discipline

[Kathianne]

You all may have heard that CA is eliminating some school suspensions and citing of course the 'unfairness inherent' in too many being of minorities.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/New-California-Law-Bans-Willful-Compliance-Suspensions-in-Grades-K-8-559999411.html

Shockingly a survey of teachers not only disagree, but think that the disciplining of the most disruptive students has been too lenient and should be employed earlier and more often:

https://www.aei.org/publication/what-teachers-think-about-race-and-school-discipline/

Last year was my first year teaching in a school with a high poverty, Title I school. In AZ generally, the administration does use suspensions-in and out of school when applicable. The big problem is how many misbehaviors are tolerated/excused prior to starting on the suspension counts, which eventually may lead to expulsion.

For the first 3 months it's pretty much left to the teachers to deal with all non-violent bad behaviors. Tools? Send to another teacher for basically a time out. Oral reprimands. Preferred seating to isolate, though the overcrowding pretty much only the teacher's desk for isolation-then you run into stealing and destruction of property. Each time you document that student's behavior.

Then the student moves into 'period in school suspension,' sitting silently in a time out room, 'working' on classwork. Without a violent incident, this continues on and off for a few weeks. IF the student has at least 3 out of 4 teachers sending them here, they move into all day in school. Once that clock starts it can continue for 4-10 day in school. Then, once returned to the room, they may move up to out-of-school suspensions, that after 5, may result in expulsion hearing, for the rest of the year.

Remember the 'weeks' in school; vacation and national holidays. It's nearly impossible for non-violent, (which can be a misnomer, as throwing a chair on the ground, not at a person, is considered 'non-violent,') to be expelled until April. In the last 3 weeks of school, 9 of my students were expelled-for the rest of that year. This year, they start clean!

[STTAB]

You all may have heard that CA is eliminating some school suspensions and citing of course the 'unfairness inherent' in too many being of minorities.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/New-California-Law-Bans-Willful-Compliance-Suspensions-in-Grades-K-8-559999411.html

Shockingly a survey of teachers not only disagree, but think that the disciplining of the most disruptive students has been too lenient and should be employed earlier and more often:

https://www.aei.org/publication/what-teachers-think-about-race-and-school-discipline/

Last year was my first year teaching in a school with a high poverty, Title I school. In AZ generally, the administration does use suspensions-in and out of school when applicable. The big problem is how many misbehaviors are tolerated/excused prior to starting on the suspension counts, which eventually may lead to expulsion.

For the first 3 months it's pretty much left to the teachers to deal with all non-violent bad behaviors. Tools? Send to another teacher for basically a time out. Oral reprimands. Preferred seating to isolate, though the overcrowding pretty much only the teacher's desk for isolation-then you run into stealing and destruction of property. Each time you document that student's behavior.

Then the student moves into 'period in school suspension,' sitting silently in a time out room, 'working' on classwork. Without a violent incident, this continues on and off for a few weeks. IF the student has at least 3 out of 4 teachers sending them here, they move into all day in school. Once that clock starts it can continue for 4-10 day in school. Then, once returned to the room, they may move up to out-of-school suspensions, that after 5, may result in expulsion hearing, for the rest of the year.

Remember the 'weeks' in school; vacation and national holidays. It's nearly impossible for non-violent, (which can be a misnomer, as throwing a chair on the ground, not at a person, is considered 'non-violent,') to be expelled until April. In the last 3 weeks of school, 9 of my students were expelled-for the rest of that year. This year, they start clean!


Any rationale person should realize that good teachers are against this kind of thing. Teachers now that lack of discipline in a classroom and an unruly student means that students and others are not learning in a classroom and who gets blamed for that? Yes, the teachers, they are expected to educated studentds to a high level regardless of all other factors.

I have often said this is exactly why private schools out perform public schools, public schools have to tolerate so much bullshit, in private schools they just kick unruly students out.

[Kathianne]

Any rationale person should realize that good teachers are against this kind of thing. Teachers now that lack of discipline in a classroom and an unruly student means that students and others are not learning in a classroom and who gets blamed for that? Yes, the teachers, they are expected to educated studentds to a high level regardless of all other factors.

I have often said this is exactly why private schools out perform public schools, public schools have to tolerate so much bullshit, in private schools they just kick unruly students out.

I spent most of my teaching career in private schools and they didn't 'just kick out' unruly students. What they did allow to happen though, was the removal of students from the classroom when they wouldn't heed oral corrections. They were not allowed to take away the whole period of learning. Once removed, parents were called and there would be a meeting. The alternatives were spelled out. The parents and student were forced to accept that the student's behavior would need to improve. Questions were asked about home-how does he/she behave? What sort of discipline was given? What chores was he/she responsible for? How much time was spent on homework/reading, was the time consistent or was he/she able to do it whenever they chose?

Here's the big difference, the above would happen in K-8, not just when the student was 'so out of control,' to make it nearly meaningless to question in ways to perhaps change parental behaviors/expectations. Our most contentious meetings would come from middle school transfer in students, usually because the parents were trying to keep their kid out of special ed classes/labels. First meeting the behavior expectations were laid out and the ability to expel spelled out. I can only think of 2 kids that we ended up losing and that was parental choice.

[STTAB]

I spent most of my teaching career in private schools and they didn't 'just kick out' unruly students. What they did allow to happen though, was the removal of students from the classroom when they wouldn't heed oral corrections. They were not allowed to take away the whole period of learning. Once removed, parents were called and there would be a meeting. The alternatives were spelled out. The parents and student were forced to accept that the student's behavior would need to improve. Questions were asked about home-how does he/she behave? What sort of discipline was given? What chores was he/she responsible for? How much time was spent on homework/reading, was the time consistent or was he/she able to do it whenever they chose?

Here's the big difference, the above would happen in K-8, not just when the student was 'so out of control,' to make it nearly meaningless to question in ways to perhaps change parental behaviors/expectations. Our most contentious meetings would come from middle school transfer in students, usually because the parents were trying to keep their kid out of special ed classes/labels. First meeting the behavior expectations were laid out and the ability to expel spelled out. I can only think of 2 kids that we ended up losing and that was parental choice.


Right, parents and students both understand that private schools won't tolerate that bullshit so the teachers and schools rarely have to deal with it. IOW surprise surprise kids will do exactly what they are allowed to get away with.

[Kathianne]

Right, parents and students both understand that private schools won't tolerate that bullshit so the teachers and schools rarely have to deal with it. IOW surprise surprise kids will do exactly what they are allowed to get away with.

Indeed. A lot of emphasis to both the kid and the parents is on how much better their lives will be. At least at our school, we gave lots of low income kids a free ride, parents helping at the school; but not the kids that transferred in after 5th grade. Those kids could earn a chance if they wanted, to pick up some work at school or church.

Kids should not and do not want to be in control of school or home.

[STTAB]

Indeed. A lot of emphasis to both the kid and the parents is on how much better their lives will be. At least at our school, we gave lots of low income kids a free ride, parents helping at the school; but not the kids that transferred in after 5th grade. Those kids could earn a chance if they wanted, to pick up some work at school or church.

Kids should not and do not want to be in control of school or home.
We're fairly lucky in our school district, most of our parents enforce the school's rules. But even at our little school we have discipline issues from time to time. I can't even imagine what it's like to try to manage or teach in one of the larger districts where it's almost a free for all and teachers , and administrators are actually afraid of the students.

[Kathianne]

We're fairly lucky in our school district, most of our parents enforce the school's rules. But even at our little school we have discipline issues from time to time. I can't even imagine what it's like to try to manage or teach in one of the larger districts where it's almost a free for all and teachers , and administrators are actually afraid of the students.

Title 1 schools are afraid of the federal government. They should be. It was they that got the Obama letters threatening their funds. It's a vicious circle. The kids have major problems, we have 2 big gangs, the Crips and the Kings. MS13 also has a presence, but not huge yet in MS. The $$ they get from the feds are not sufficient for the problems faced. Yet, the $$ has to be spent on 'breakfast, lunches, and dinners sent home with the kids.' The school provides all supplies or not. I often had to buy pencils, paper, tissue out of my own pocket. The feds force things like restarting the behavior plans 'clean' each year. It goes on and on. Then there are the fears of $$ being taken back, but not the rules. Always a real fear.