Vietnam

[Abbey Marie]

Saw this image of a lighter from Vietnam, and wondered what our veterans think about the sentiments on it. Gunny ?

12189

[Kathianne]

Saw this image of a lighter from Vietnam, and wondered what our veterans think about the sentiments on it. @Gunny (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=30) ?

12189

My impression is that someone had figured out the truth.

[Gunny]

Saw this image of a lighter from Vietnam, and wondered what our veterans think about the sentiments on it. @Gunny (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=30) ?

12189Seen THAT before a time or "two" :)

It is (was) a sentiment of the time, and the Vietnam War. It's dated 72. There was no glamour by any means at that point in the war. The US was drawing down as a prelude to abandon the place. The "mission" was to stay alive and go home. Nobody wanted to risk jack to die for a war we gave up on and only the formalities of leaving remained. Last "guy/girl" out beats "last body bag out".

The "unwilling" would be the draftees who didn't want to be there to begin with, and the professional corps that didn't want to die for nothing.

The "unqualified" could refer to anyone from LBJ on down the chain.

What I WILL agree with that I consider current is "the ungrateful". If people acted even during my time in like they do now, I'd have probably done one hitch and got out. Sorry, but about half this Nation is not worth saving, IMO. Minimum had I stayed in longer I'd have dropped my papers effective the day BEFORE Obama was sworn in. No way would I have served under him and he DEFINITELY fits in the Top 5 of "unqualified".

The saying on the lighter at least while I was in was just given to the "a bitchin' Marine is a happy Marine" line of thought. If you were happy something was wrong and a Gunny was sure to come along and fix that for you :)

[CSM]

Pretty good synopsis by Gunny.

[icansayit]

Though I served during Nam. I will never forget the SIX names on a Wall in D.C. with guys I knew then, from Pennsylvania, and a few others. Because of those terrible times. I still cannot go to the Wall anymore. Emotional is an understatement.

Probably will help everyone know why I Will Never Forgive John (the phony war hero) and his Hanoi Jane (notsofonda) Fonda.

For those who may not know. I joined the Navy in May of 1964. Retired in August, 1995.

[Elessar]

Seen THAT before a time or "two" :)

It is (was) a sentiment of the time, and the Vietnam War. It's dated 72. There was no glamour by any means at that point in the war. The US was drawing down as a prelude to abandon the place. The "mission" was to stay alive and go home. Nobody wanted to risk jack to die for a war we gave up on and only the formalities of leaving remained. Last "guy/girl" out beats "last body bag out".



<snipped for brevity>

Dad was in 'Nam then. He got word from Mom that my draft pre-induction physical was scheduled.

He got in touch with me via the MARS network and told me if I got the induction notice, to pack up and head
North until I got to Quebec. He said no son of his deserved being in that shithole that was wrecked by politicians.
This coming from a decorated WWII and Korean War Vet.

All for naught, though. Army medic at my physical declared me unfit because of flat feet!
I thought that ironic because I had just lettered in college track and was one of the fastest guys
on the football team - plus 20 mile hikes with the Boy Scouts twice a year.

What the hell! I would have never driven to Canada, though.:laugh::salute:

[STTAB]

Seen THAT before a time or "two" :)

It is (was) a sentiment of the time, and the Vietnam War. It's dated 72. There was no glamour by any means at that point in the war. The US was drawing down as a prelude to abandon the place. The "mission" was to stay alive and go home. Nobody wanted to risk jack to die for a war we gave up on and only the formalities of leaving remained. Last "guy/girl" out beats "last body bag out".

The "unwilling" would be the draftees who didn't want to be there to begin with, and the professional corps that didn't want to die for nothing.

The "unqualified" could refer to anyone from LBJ on down the chain.

What I WILL agree with that I consider current is "the ungrateful". If people acted even during my time in like they do now, I'd have probably done one hitch and got out. Sorry, but about half this Nation is not worth saving, IMO. Minimum had I stayed in longer I'd have dropped my papers effective the day BEFORE Obama was sworn in. No way would I have served under him and he DEFINITELY fits in the Top 5 of "unqualified".

The saying on the lighter at least while I was in was just given to the "a bitchin' Marine is a happy Marine" line of thought. If you were happy something was wrong and a Gunny was sure to come along and fix that for you :)


I took the unqualified to mean the seemingly unending line of 2nd LTs who streamed through Vietnam LOL. I mean 2LT's are almost always useless lumps of dogshit anyway, but stories I heard about Nam they were even worse. My uncle once told me the that the stories of fragging their own were not entirley made up.

[Gunny]

I took the unqualified to mean the seemingly unending line of 2nd LTs who streamed through Vietnam LOL. I mean 2LT's are almost always useless lumps of dogshit anyway, but stories I heard about Nam they were even worse. My uncle once told me the that the stories of fragging their own were not entirley made up.I didn't want to go into the "90 Day Wonders". College-educated draftees qualified for leadership only by a piece of paper that says they majored in Business Administration. Punk-asses with licenses to kill. Then you got your ring-knockers (service academy grads for those who don't know). They know what's going on and how to fix it before they every get on the flight to go overseas because the academy said so :rolleyes: Got your battlefield commissions/Mustangers/LDOs who were awesome enlisted men and should have stayed such because it was what they were best qualified to do. Off topic but never can resist taking the shot when it's there, John Kerry is a PERFECT example of all of the above.

As you state, 2ndLts are a menace to the military without any of the above. They "streamed through" because they kept dying.

One of the big issues was also Vietnam for the most part was a low-intensity conflict with troops spread out all over the place and command often fell to Lt's and Sgt's because command and control was at the squad/plt/Company level.

Then Walter announces the war unwinnable, support for getting out is a 68 Presidential campaign issue which means "somebody" is delivering no matter the circumstances, and you have the makings of a major disaster in the field. You tell me out on the line that "hey, we're just marking time awaiting the order to pull out and I'm thinking I don't care a whole bunch of Charlie is hiding a nuke in the bush over there. I'm not going to go see.

The leftwingnut US populace/MSM are THE biggest moral-killers the military ever faces. We ALL trusted Walter and if he declared the war unwinnable, by God, it was so. Even though he declared it amidst one of the most resounding US military victories of the whole damned war -- Tet 68. The North had sacrificed the VC and we gladly destroyed them, never to be a force to be reckoned with again, and committed the NVA to conventional warfare which the US sent back tot he Stone Age, It took them until 75 to attack the S Vietnam because it took them that long to recover from Tet.

Yet, we couldn't win :rolleyes: Instant morale killer among a bunch of draftees with marginal morale to begin with. Brilliant, that.

[STTAB]

I didn't want to go into the "90 Day Wonders". College-educated draftees qualified for leadership only by a piece of paper that says they majored in Business Administration. Punk-asses with licenses to kill. Then you got your ring-knockers (service academy grads for those who don't know). They know what's going on and how to fix it before they every get on the flight to go overseas because the academy said so :rolleyes: Got your battlefield commissions/Mustangers/LDOs who were awesome enlisted men and should have stayed such because it was what they were best qualified to do. Off topic but never can resist taking the shot when it's there, John Kerry is a PERFECT example of all of the above.

As you state, 2ndLts are a menace to the military without any of the above. They "streamed through" because they kept dying.

One of the big issues was also Vietnam for the most part was a low-intensity conflict with troops spread out all over the place and command often fell to Lt's and Sgt's because command and control was at the squad/plt/Company level.

Then Walter announces the war unwinnable, support for getting out is a 68 Presidential campaign issue which means "somebody" is delivering no matter the circumstances, and you have the makings of a major disaster in the field. You tell me out on the line that "hey, we're just marking time awaiting the order to pull out and I'm thinking I don't care a whole bunch of Charlie is hiding a nuke in the bush over there. I'm not going to go see.

The leftwingnut US populace/MSM are THE biggest moral-killers the military ever faces. We ALL trusted Walter and if he declared the war unwinnable, by God, it was so. Even though he declared it amidst one of the most resounding US military victories of the whole damned war -- Tet 68. The North had sacrificed the VC and we gladly destroyed them, never to be a force to be reckoned with again, and committed the NVA to conventional warfare which the US sent back tot he Stone Age, It took them until 75 to attack the S Vietnam because it took them that long to recover from Tet.

Yet, we couldn't win :rolleyes: Instant morale killer among a bunch of draftees with marginal morale to begin with. Brilliant, that.

Best lesson I learned as a 2LT was that I only looked as smart as I let my NCO's make me look , and that's just the truth. NCO's are by design experienced soldiers and very few 2LTs have any experience (a few like me who Mustanged in , but that's sort of rare and anyway I still didn't have the experience of a Master Sargent or such) Later when I reached higher rank and had 2LTs under my command I always told them that "remember if you don't want to look like an asshole let your senior NCO advise you and by advise I mean tell you what orders to give" LOL

Too many dipshits come in thinking "fuck you I'm an officer, you're not YOU WILL OBEY ME" and from stories I've heard from Vietnam vets in every branch that was pretty much the way junior officers acted then.

Things have changed plenty now, even when I retired now been 9 years we had NCOs with college degrees so it isn't a case any more of "I'm better than you I've been to college"

[Gunny]

Best lesson I learned as a 2LT was that I only looked as smart as I let my NCO's make me look , and that's just the truth. NCO's are by design experienced soldiers and very few 2LTs have any experience (a few like me who Mustanged in , but that's sort of rare and anyway I still didn't have the experience of a Master Sargent or such) Later when I reached higher rank and had 2LTs under my command I always told them that "remember if you don't want to look like an asshole let your senior NCO advise you and by advise I mean tell you what orders to give" LOL

Too many dipshits come in thinking "fuck you I'm an officer, you're not YOU WILL OBEY ME" and from stories I've heard from Vietnam vets in every branch that was pretty much the way junior officers acted then.

Things have changed plenty now, even when I retired now been 9 years we had NCOs with college degrees so it isn't a case any more of "I'm better than you I've been to college"I took officers as they came. I'm not knocking the education itself. I knock it when certain people think that it makes them an instant expert on everything.

I have no problem with those who chose to become officers. Same as any other choice, I guess. Just when it devolves into all the BS previously mentioned. Some of the best Marines i knew were officers, as were some of the worst. When you have a "factory" system set up to replace them under battlefield commissions you're just asking for it.

I can't even imagine being in a unit like Capt Medina/William Calley's. I would have walked out of the field and reported their asses if I hadn't just turned my weapon on Calley and threatened him at gunpoint. Murder was not okay at any point in time I was in. I don't care how smart or dumb you are.
.

[STTAB]

I took officers as they came. I'm not knocking the education itself. I knock it when certain people think that it makes them an instant expert on everything.

I have no problem with those who chose to become officers. Same as any other choice, I guess. Just when it devolves into all the BS previously mentioned. Some of the best Marines i knew were officers, as were some of the worst. When you have a "factory" system set up to replace them under battlefield commissions you're just asking for it.

I can't even imagine being in a unit like Capt Medina/William Calley's. I would have walked out of the field and reported their asses if I hadn't just turned my weapon on Calley and threatened him at gunpoint. Murder was not okay at any point in time I was in. I don't care how smart or dumb you are.
.


That was one advantage I had . I was a Spec4 when they sent me to OCS, so I had some time in as enlisted. And some of the older guys in my unit were cool, took me under their wings so to speak and showed me the right way to do things. If you come in as a butter bar and start barking orders, you'll get nowhere. If you come in and respect those who you are now commanding , you'll have a better career. I mean obviously we both know that a good soldier is going to follow legal orders even if an asshole is giving them, but there is following orders and there is "following orders" I seen many young officers get fucked over by NCOs following exact orders which cost those young soldiers with their superiors lol

I also saw a lot of assholes treating their NCOs like they were fresh recruits. Total dickhead power play shit. I had no use for it. I like to think soldiers who served under me respected me. I never asked them to do anything I was not willing to do, and I never acted like I was better than anyone else, even though I was LOL HAHAHAHA

[Abbey Marie]

Thanks for the responses. I appreciate any real info on Vietnam; particularly from someone who was there.

[Gunny]

Thanks for the responses. I appreciate any real info on Vietnam; particularly from someone who was there.I was not. My "Vietnam experience" was growing up in a career military family while the war was going on. It basically went from ages 2-15 for me. Close enough that I, and all the other service brats in the "hood" (housing) just assumed our future timelines read: Graduate school, get drafted or join ahead of the sweep, and go to Nam.

I just remember all the crap we went through back here. When there was a big push in the 80s to get some $ for the wifey's I was all for it because life was not fun in some ways. Military dependents get little to no recognition by anyone. I won't say it makes one special but it sure as Hell made us different.

Just start with Dad is halfway around the World for a year. You're only 6? That's nice. You get his chores anyway. And you are all Mom has for backup. She gets sick? Your 6 years old tail better know how to at least make sandwiches and soup cuz the 4 years old has to eat. If Mom had to go to another family's house to help because daddy wasn't coming home to THAT family, you're the babysitter. And there were no thoughts of screwing up, even at that age, when it was time to handle your responsibilities.

One of the things I noticed in "We Were Soldiers" is the wives forming a posse and taking charge. The movie downplayed it :) The wives wore their husband's ranks and the family infrastructure ran accordingly. We were all just so serious about everything. Shit mattered then.

I've known people on this board longer than I ever had any friends in the real World. They move in and they move out to the next duty station. Never see them again. And people wonder why I'm such a loner. You just quit making friends after awhile that way you don't have any to lose.

Thing is, all us kids were the same. We could run the house by the time we were 10. They're lucky now if they can even make the bus on time. Being late is cool with almost everyone. We were NEVER late. You better have a gushing artery to show for it if you were.

When dad comes back with more holes in him than when he left you get to learn to help change bandages. Ick factor not authorized.

Just a bunch of off-the-wall crap most civilians don't deal with. What it shows me though is that when required to step up and contribute, there was none of this whining BS going on you hear from adults nowadays. So it is not impossible for children to handle things. The left has just tried to convince everyone they can't. Kids can't even be left alone under the age of 10 or 12 (can't remember which) now. I was babysitting by the time I was 8. And took it seriously.

My mom taught me to play baseball. Good thing I was good at it on my own :). She and Capt D'and Capt B's wives were our coaches and scorekeepers :) But we got to play baseball.

[STTAB]

I was not. My "Vietnam experience" was growing up in a career military family while the war was going on. It basically went from ages 2-15 for me. Close enough that I, and all the other service brats in the "hood" (housing) just assumed our future timelines read: Graduate school, get drafted or join ahead of the sweep, and go to Nam.

I just remember all the crap we went through back here. When there was a big push in the 80s to get some $ for the wifey's I was all for it because life was not fun in some ways. Military dependents get little to no recognition by anyone. I won't say it makes one special but it sure as Hell made us different.

Just start with Dad is halfway around the World for a year. You're only 6? That's nice. You get his chores anyway. And you are all Mom has for backup. She gets sick? Your 6 years old tail better know how to at least make sandwiches and soup cuz the 4 years old has to eat. If Mom had to go to another family's house to help because daddy wasn't coming home to THAT family, you're the babysitter. And there were no thoughts of screwing up, even at that age, when it was time to handle your responsibilities.

One of the things I noticed in "We Were Soldiers" is the wives forming a posse and taking charge. The movie downplayed it :) The wives wore their husband's ranks and the family infrastructure ran accordingly. We were all just so serious about everything. Shit mattered then.

I've known people on this board longer than I ever had any friends in the real World. They move in and they move out to the next duty station. Never see them again. And people wonder why I'm such a loner. You just quit making friends after awhile that way you don't have any to lose.

Thing is, all us kids were the same. We could run the house by the time we were 10. They're lucky now if they can even make the bus on time. Being late is cool with almost everyone. We were NEVER late. You better have a gushing artery to show for it if you were.

When dad comes back with more holes in him than when he left you get to learn to help change bandages. Ick factor not authorized.

Just a bunch of off-the-wall crap most civilians don't deal with. What it shows me though is that when required to step up and contribute, there was none of this whining BS going on you hear from adults nowadays. So it is not impossible for children to handle things. The left has just tried to convince everyone they can't. Kids can't even be left alone under the age of 10 or 12 (can't remember which) now. I was babysitting by the time I was 8. And took it seriously.

My mom taught me to play baseball. Good thing I was good at it on my own :). She and Capt D'and Capt B's wives were our coaches and scorekeepers :) But we got to play baseball.


Much respect.

I was lucky outside of a few deployments , home for dinner every night.

Okay it wasn't luck. I started planning my life when I was 15. At 15 I knew I was going to join the military, at 16 I knew it would be National Guard. At 20 I knew I would I would make a career of it and retire by age 40.

I run my family the Army way LOL everyone is up at a certain time, everyone has a certain time to use the facilities in the morning, everyone has chores. Meals are at a certain time and you WILL be there. My oldest boys both joined the Army before college and went through Basic both said said "the only real difference was that we did a lot more shooting at home" LOL

[Elessar]

One in-port day while on the Cutter Venturous, our C.O. Stan Breedlove, summoned all of the Boatswain's and Gunner's Mates
to his cabin. He was a Mustang, former Navy Quartermaster.

He told us our job was not just to teach and guide junior enlisteds, but also guide Ensigns (O-1), LTjg's (O-2),
and some LT's (O-3). But he did warn us that Junior Officers could be fragile and break easy!:laugh:

A very wise skipper!

[STTAB]

One in-port day while on the Cutter Venturous, our C.O. Stan Breedlove, summoned all of the Boatswain's and Gunner's Mates
to his cabin. He was a Mustang, former Navy Quartermaster.

He told us our job was not just to teach and guide junior enlisteds, but also guide Ensigns (O-1), LTjg's (O-2),
and some LT's (O-3). But he did warn us that Junior Officers could be fragile and break easy!:laugh:

A very wise skipper!


I don't know why your post made me think of my grandpa, but it did.

Made me think of when he used to tell stories of the "old man" who was actually the 27 year old captain of the fire rescue ship he served on. The name escaped me at the moment. I'd have to search my memory

[Gunny]

Much respect.

I was lucky outside of a few deployments , home for dinner every night.

Okay it wasn't luck. I started planning my life when I was 15. At 15 I knew I was going to join the military, at 16 I knew it would be National Guard. At 20 I knew I would I would make a career of it and retire by age 40.

I run my family the Army way LOL everyone is up at a certain time, everyone has a certain time to use the facilities in the morning, everyone has chores. Meals are at a certain time and you WILL be there. My oldest boys both joined the Army before college and went through Basic both said said "the only real difference was that we did a lot more shooting at home" LOLYeah, I get called a hardass prick too. And told the Marine Corps should have a special place to just keep me while I outlive everyone else just to piss them off :)

[Elessar]

Yeah, I get called a hardass prick too. And told the Marine Corps should have a special place to just keep me while I outlive everyone else just to piss them off :)

I got called as asshole on an out-brief by an Ensign. I told him on the approach to the
subject vessel, an LE Boarding, to sit down and not move. He had reached to make first contact on the subject vessel.
My bowman was to make first contact and rig the bowline to slip free when we backed off.

After the out-brief, hearing that Ensign, the Gunner's Mate asked if I heard the comment.

I said "Tim, I sure did and could not get a better compliment from an Ensign!"

[Abbey Marie]

As the daughter of a WWII veteran of Monte Cassino and Anzio, I wonder if any significant number of those guys felt the sentiments on that lighter. I can’t ask him now. :(

So, what do you think? It was a very different time and a very different war, but some things are timeless and universal.

[Elessar]

As the daughter of a WWII veteran of Monte Cassino and Anzio, I wonder if any significant number of those guys felt the sentiments on that lighter. I can’t ask him now. :(

So, what do you think? It was a very different time and a very different war, but some things are timeless and universal.

I cannot really comment positively or negatively on that inscription, being a non-combatant.

I have heard that line before, using a bit different verbiage -but that inscription shows the
heart of the writer: Frustrated and disappointed:

“We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much,
for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.”.

Dad sent me that from 'Nam.

[icansayit]

At that time. During Nam. "That inscription actually applied to EVERY AMERICAN THERE."

Nobody, and I do mean...Nobody at sea, on land, or in the air during all of those years...WANTED TO BE THERE!

Until you've personally witnessed (as I have...many times) the piles, and piles of Silver Caskets on pallets, sitting on a pier, waiting to be loaded aboard ships. You might not understand WHY that lighter spoke for everyone.


http://icansayit.com/images/i can.jpg