I, me, mine.

[Noir]

An extremely obvious observation, but presented with a clarity that I felt worth sharing.

I, me, mine - thoughts of Alan Wallace

————————————

I want you to know that this is my watch, my watch, my wife gave it to me for Christmas. It’s a nice watch, a $50 watch, but it’s a good one. My watch, right, so if you take it you took something of mine. So imagine somebody takes it and runs off to Buenos Aires. I’m thinking ‘he took my watch, he took my watch’ at what point exactly does it not become my watch any longer? He got clean away, the police ran after him, but they missed him at the airport, I lost my watch, he has my watch. He says ‘hah, no, it is my watch’. When did it become my watch? and when did it stop becoming my watch?
When we say so.

People give away their livers while they’re still alive, and kidneys, and blood, and skin...when does it stop becoming theirs? So this whole notion that possession or myness is something built into...’this is my country’ ‘this is my ethnic group’ ‘this is my possession’ ‘this is my memory’ - people lose their memory, then whose is it? Who does that memory belong to then?

This notion of I and mine, and therefore not I and not mine... I and not I, my side and not my side. That side - they can all be buried. My side - I will protect unto the death, all projection, all projection.

[CSM]

An extremely obvious observation, but presented with a clarity that I felt worth sharing.

I, me, mine - thoughts of Alan Wallace

————————————

I want you to know that this is my watch, my watch, my wife gave it to me for Christmas. It’s a nice watch, a $50 watch, but it’s a good one. My watch, right, so if you take it you took something of mine. So imagine somebody takes it and runs off to Buenos Aires. I’m thinking ‘he took my watch, he took my watch’ at what point exactly does it not become my watch any longer? He got clean away, the police ran after him, but they missed him at the airport, I lost my watch, he has my watch. He says ‘hah, no, it is my watch’. When did it become my watch? and when did it stop becoming my watch?
When we say so.

People give away their livers while they’re still alive, and kidneys, and blood, and skin...when does it stop becoming theirs? So this whole notion that possession or myness is something built into...’this is my country’ ‘this is my ethnic group’ ‘this is my possession’ ‘this is my memory’ - people lose their memory, then whose is it? Who does that memory belong to then?

This notion of I and mine, and therefore not I and not mine... I and not I, my side and not my side. That side - they can all be buried. My side - I will protect unto the death, all projection, all projection.



So no one "owns" anything.... good to know. You just solved everything! Your clothes are not yours, your other possessions are not yours, and your life is not yours. Good to know.

[Gunny]

An extremely obvious observation, but presented with a clarity that I felt worth sharing.

I, me, mine - thoughts of Alan Wallace

————————————

I want you to know that this is my watch, my watch, my wife gave it to me for Christmas. It’s a nice watch, a $50 watch, but it’s a good one. My watch, right, so if you take it you took something of mine. So imagine somebody takes it and runs off to Buenos Aires. I’m thinking ‘he took my watch, he took my watch’ at what point exactly does it not become my watch any longer? He got clean away, the police ran after him, but they missed him at the airport, I lost my watch, he has my watch. He says ‘hah, no, it is my watch’. When did it become my watch? and when did it stop becoming my watch?
When we say so.

People give away their livers while they’re still alive, and kidneys, and blood, and skin...when does it stop becoming theirs? So this whole notion that possession or myness is something built into...’this is my country’ ‘this is my ethnic group’ ‘this is my possession’ ‘this is my memory’ - people lose their memory, then whose is it? Who does that memory belong to then?

This notion of I and mine, and therefore not I and not mine... I and not I, my side and not my side. That side - they can all be buried. My side - I will protect unto the death, all projection, all projection.

Intellectually dishonest semantics.

[Noir]

So no one "owns" anything.... good to know. You just solved everything! Your clothes are not yours, your other possessions are not yours, and your life is not yours. Good to know.

This is an area in which I am very unsophisticated - and I think my response will reflect that, as I have tried to write this response several times and failed. Nonetheless I find the passage to reflect a sentiment that I can not reiterate without diminishing.

[Abbey Marie]

Even animals will defend what is “ theirs”. All the philosophizing in the world won’t change nature; human and otherwise.

[hjmick]

It will always be my watch, until I give it away or throw it away. Stealing it does not make it theirs. Ever. Period.

[Noir]

It will always be my watch, until I give it away or throw it away. Stealing it does not make it theirs. Ever. Period.

Stolen (like the watch) or given (like the kidney) or forgotten (like the memory) when does something become (or cease to be) “mine”?

[Noir]

Even animals will defend what is “ theirs”. All the philosophizing in the world won’t change nature; human and otherwise.

We are animals like them, subject to the same perception.

[Elessar]

An extremely obvious observation, but presented with a clarity that I felt worth sharing.

I, me, mine - thoughts of Alan Wallace

————————————

I want you to know that this is my watch, my watch, my wife gave it to me for Christmas. It’s a nice watch, a $50 watch, but it’s a good one. My watch, right, so if you take it you took something of mine. So imagine somebody takes it and runs off to Buenos Aires. I’m thinking ‘he took my watch, he took my watch’ at what point exactly does it not become my watch any longer? He got clean away, the police ran after him, but they missed him at the airport, I lost my watch, he has my watch. He says ‘hah, no, it is my watch’. When did it become my watch? and when did it stop becoming my watch?
When we say so.

People give away their livers while they’re still alive, and kidneys, and blood, and skin...when does it stop becoming theirs? So this whole notion that possession or myness is something built into...’this is my country’ ‘this is my ethnic group’ ‘this is my possession’ ‘this is my memory’ - people lose their memory, then whose is it? Who does that memory belong to then?

This notion of I and mine, and therefore not I and not mine... I and not I, my side and not my side. That side - they can all be buried. My side - I will protect unto the death, all projection, all projection.



That makes no sense whatsoever.


So no one "owns" anything.... good to know. You just solved everything! Your clothes are not yours, your other possessions are not yours, and your life is not yours. Good to know.

Well placed sarcasm.


Intellectually dishonest semantics.

Exactly!

[hjmick]

Stolen (like the watch) or given (like the kidney) or forgotten (like the memory) when does something become (or cease to be) “mine”?


It becomes "mine" when I buy it or when someone gives it to me. It ceases to be mine when I say so. Theft does not make it yours.

[Gunny]

Stolen (like the watch) or given (like the kidney) or forgotten (like the memory) when does something become (or cease to be) “mine”?"Forgotten" WHAT? I don't recall ever seeing forgetfulness as a legitimate reason to change ownership. I've never seen the "finders-keepers" defense work, but that would depend on the law where you are, I guess. Here? Trip to Bexar County for theft. If it does not belong to you, it is not yours to take.

HJMick covered the other two in his post.

[Drummond]

Stolen (like the watch) or given (like the kidney) or forgotten (like the memory) when does something become (or cease to be) “mine”?

Noir, I know your sensibilities - certainly compared to mine ! - are VERY significantly to the Left of mine. Even so ... did you mean your argument as a joke ?

Are you so wedded to the concept of an individual not mattering as one, that you likewise reject the notion of individual ownership, beyond certain limitations based upon immediacy ?? In your example of the watch, the watch was stolen. Not given. STOLEN. Which means you have your answer. The thief doesn't cease to be one, by keeping that watch. It is NEVER HIS PROPERTY.

[Try this as an example: the Great Train Robbery, back in the 1960's. Ronald Biggs, a member of the gang, went (fled) to another country, to escape capture and our justice. In his example ... did his share of the loot become 'his' because he'd managed to hold on to it ? Were our police wrong to arrest him, many years later, the first chance they had ?]

A memory, if forgotten, can be re-remembered. The memory never ceased to be 'owned' by the person it originated from. What if an inventor remembers a design for a new device .. then forgets it ? If somebody else becomes aware of that design and then takes full credit for its invention, that, too, is thievery (and a lie).

As for your kidney donation example .. did you offer it in the realisation that in our part of the world, the law on being a kidney donor is (in your case) likely to be reversed soon ? In Wales .. it HAS been. 'Presumed Consent' now rules. Now, in Wales, you have to FEND OFF organ 'grabs' by making a legally enforceable declaration that you want no such donations to ever happen. The absence of that declaration allows the mere PRESUMPTION of agreement to be a legal default.

I daresay that Northern Ireland will follow suit one day soon. There's already talk of England taking this up.

So, let me ask YOU, Noir: is your own body, YOURS ?? Or, does the Almighty State 'own' you, JUST because THEY 'say so' ... a penance for your daring to so much as EXIST ??

[SassyLady]

An extremely obvious observation, but presented with a clarity that I felt worth sharing.

I, me, mine - thoughts of Alan Wallace

————————————

I want you to know that this is my watch, my watch, my wife gave it to me for Christmas. It’s a nice watch, a $50 watch, but it’s a good one. My watch, right, so if you take it you took something of mine. So imagine somebody takes it and runs off to Buenos Aires. I’m thinking ‘he took my watch, he took my watch’ at what point exactly does it not become my watch any longer? He got clean away, the police ran after him, but they missed him at the airport, I lost my watch, he has my watch. He says ‘hah, no, it is my watch’. When did it become my watch? and when did it stop becoming my watch?
When we say so.

People give away their livers while they’re still alive, and kidneys, and blood, and skin...when does it stop becoming theirs? So this whole notion that possession or myness is something built into...’this is my country’ ‘this is my ethnic group’ ‘this is my possession’ ‘this is my memory’ - people lose their memory, then whose is it? Who does that memory belong to then?

This notion of I and mine, and therefore not I and not mine... I and not I, my side and not my side. That side - they can all be buried. My side - I will protect unto the death, all projection, all projection.



The watch is mine until I sell or give away. My liver is mine until it is removed from my body because I have given it away. Losing my memory, or losing anything, does not mean it is no longer mine. It has just been misplaced.

My children will always be my children, even when they are adults.

Seems to me that socialism is all about divesting us of ownership of anything and these thoughts are just sowing seeds of doubt.

[Noir]

Regarding some of the above posts - this has nothing to do with socialism etc.


So, let me ask YOU, Noir: is your own body, YOURS ??

That is the right question, and I think the answer has to be no. “My” body is not the same body I had yesterday, nor will it be the same tomorrow. In what sense is your body the same as the one you occupied when you were 15?

Are you your body, or are you inside it?

[Drummond]

The watch is mine until I sell or give away. My liver is mine until it is removed from my body because I have given it away. Losing my memory, or losing anything, does not mean it is no longer mine. It has just been misplaced.

My children will always be my children, even when they are adults.

Seems to me that socialism is all about divesting us of ownership of anything and these thoughts are just sowing seeds of doubt.

I believe you're right as far as this goes ... but, as I see it, Socialism is meant to dis-empower the individual, AS one. What more complete way of doing it but to nullify any sense of 'self', so that the individual merely becomes raw material for those running the society on Socialist 'principles' ... ?

I think we're seeing this in Noir's current argument. The line is taken that individual rights, even individual identity, is so fluid as to be supposedly 'meaningless' ... and anyone totally, 100% buying into that would be prime fodder for control by an outside agency.

[Drummond]

Regarding some of the above posts - this has nothing to do with socialism etc.

Pull the other one !! Your assertion couldn't be more false.


That is the right question, and I think the answer has to be no. “My” body is not the same body I had yesterday, nor will it be the same tomorrow. In what sense is your body the same as the one you occupied when you were 15?

Are you your body, or are you inside it?

Just as expected ... you're taking this to the extreme where any sense of 'self' is open to question and doubt. Anyone foolish enough to be prey enough to such an effort of 'programming', could be expected to be shorn of all self-worth, since - supposedly - 'self' is meant to be seen as ultimately meaningless.

If your body isn't the same one you had yesterday ... whose IS it, then ?? Do you go in for body swapping on a daily basis ??

Chew on this ...

A person's character exists.

A person's memory exists.

A person's beliefs exist.

Most particularly .. a person's DNA profile exists !!!

We aren't all being regularly reborn, 'Invasion of the Body Snatchers' style, Noir. When I go to sleep tonight, tomorrow I'll wake up as ME, and not somebody else. Your continuation of an argument suggesting otherwise, if in fact you DO continue with this, won't alter the truth of any of my above statements .. yet, if you were right, I'd have to be telling falsehoods.

There will never be a time when I will doubt I'm me, Noir. And may I suggest that, for all of the extreme perversity of your current argument, neither will YOU.

Isn't that right, Fred .. ? :rolleyes:;);):rolleyes:

[Abbey Marie]

Regarding some of the above posts - this has nothing to do with socialism etc.



[/I]That is the right question, and I think the answer has to be no. “My” body is not the same body I had yesterday, nor will it be the same tomorrow. In what sense is your body the same as the one you occupied when you were 15?

Are you your body, or are you inside it?

Now we are moving from talking of ownership to states of being, characteristics, etc.
We need our resident poet to write about how the river is never the same twice. :cool:

I wish my body was the same as it once was, lol. And my mind, too. The mental acuity I had, say, taking the bar exam, was quite better than it is as I write this. And my thoughts and wisdom, I guess, have evolved/matured as well. But at the core, I am still “me”.

To your point (?), if my consciousness could be transferred to another body, whatever is “me” would go with it. The body is just a handy container, and not really determinative of self. But it’s still mine. At least until I am pregnant; then I share it with another being.

[Abbey Marie]

We are animals like them, subject to the same perception.

After I made my animal/human post, I thought it was a bit lame because you would point out that we are different due to human will and intellect, if not our souls. But you went the other way.
:cool:

[High_Plains_Drifter]

This is a perfect example of over psychoanalyzing something to the point of absurdity.

It's like asking, when does the sun come up? Is it up when you can first see a little sliver of it, is it up when you can see half of it, some other lessor or greater fraction, or is it not up until you can see all of it, blah, blah, blah?

Who in the fuck cares? Can you see it? Is it light outside? Yes? OK then, the fucking sun is up.

Why does anyone waste brain time on such inane crap?

[Noir]

This is is stretching quite a bit away from my original posts intention - but as you asked...


.If your body isn't the same one you had yesterday ... whose IS it, then ??

That is a good question, and one I am not equipped to answer.


Chew on this ...

A person's character exists.

A person's memory exists.

A person's beliefs exist.

Most particularly .. a person's DNA profile exists !!!

The first three are transient, and so subject to constant change.

The third is biologically programmable, and indeed copyable, if you are your DNA we could have thousands of “you” created in an afternoon with appropriate technological advancement. They are not you in the sense that we think of you being you though, would you agree?

- - - -

Even if I had the appropriate language to describe what I meant to you I would doubt that you’d be able to read it without prejudice of ‘this is some lefty-socialist trick’ etc, so I am not the one who will be able to really deliver this message to you.

[SassyLady]

Regarding some of the above posts - this has nothing to do with socialism etc.


If your watch, body, memory, etc. isn't yours then who do they belong to? The collective?

[Noir]

If your watch, body, memory, etc. isn't yours then who do they belong to? The collective?

Not at all.
They don't belong, period.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

------------ http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/hysterical-laughter-smiley-emoticon.gif (http://www.sherv.net/)

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Not at all.
They don't belong, period.

My body belongs on earth were it was born.
It belongs to my family and myself.
YOUR VAGUE ANSWERS POINT EITHER TO DELIBERATE EVASION OR ELSE A VERY,VERY, VERY CONFUSED PERSON, IMHO.-Tyr

[High_Plains_Drifter]

My body belongs on earth were it was born.
It belongs to my family and myself.
YOUR VAGUE ANSWERS POINT EITHER TO DELIBERATE EVASION OR ELSE A VERY,VERY, VERY CONFUSED PERSON, IMHO.-Tyr
That's the way little liberals that think they're so intellectual think, brother Tyr.

Take something that should be simple, basic logic to anyone else, and then dissect it with liberal psycho analysis until it's unrecognizably absurd, and then they congratulate themselves for being so intellectually superior to everyone else.

They're also oblivious as to how ridiculous they look and sound to many of us. They don't care. We're just stupid conservative mouth breathing hicks to them.

[SassyLady]

Not at all.
They don't belong, period.

Of course they do.
Everything belongs somewhere .. to something.
Imagine how lonely ... not belonging.

[Noir]

Of course they do.
Everything belongs somewhere .. to something.
Imagine how lonely ... not belonging.

There is a framing issue here that when I say something ‘doesn’t belong’ you see it from a perspective in which things ‘do and don’t’ belong (like is referenced in the OP) whereas I mean it in the sense that there is no ‘belonging’.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

There is a framing issue here that when I say something ‘doesn’t belong’ you see it from a perspective in which things ‘do and don’t’ belong (like is referenced in the OP) whereas I mean it in the sense that there is no ‘belonging’.
No... there's a liberal pshyco babble issue here.

This is the same sort of idiotic psycho babble that gets used in much of the left's politically correct garbage and their name change game.

[SassyLady]

There is a framing issue here that when I say something ‘doesn’t belong’ you see it from a perspective in which things ‘do and don’t’ belong (like is referenced in the OP) whereas I mean it in the sense that there is no ‘belonging’.

And, I disagree. Belonging is essential to well being.

Belonging ... an affinity for a place or situation.

[Abbey Marie]

Well, @Noir (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=517) agree with you or not, I appreciate the thread. Maybe I’m different, but I enjoy these types of discussions. Everything doesn’t need to be about politics and so very serious.

[Noir]

I’m going to take a second run at this thread.

Having re-read, I think a big communication problem was rooted in the idea of “Ownership” so I want to take than back a step, and propose that “attachment” is the hidden hand pulling the lever.

Attachment to a watch is a path to suffering.

[STTAB]

It becomes "mine" when I buy it or when someone gives it to me. It ceases to be mine when I say so. Theft does not make it yours.


I just came across this thread since Noir posted, havent read every post, but wanted to add this.

Of course what you say is true, BUT it is also not quite true.

For example, if I have a car and you steal it, obviously it is still my car and I'm not likely to let that go. Not to mention we have documentation to clearly prove ownership of vehicles.

On the other hand, if I have a watch and you steal it, unless its a pretty damn special watch I'm probably not going to be overly concerned with proving its still mine even though you stole it.

Large companies like Wal Mart use this philosophy all the time, and call it shrinkage. If you attempt to steal a large money item like a TV or something, they are going to attempt to stop you and prevent you from stealing THEIR merchandise. On the other hand, they do virtually nothing to prevent the theft of small items effectively relinquishing ownership via theft by their inaction to prevent it. If you manage to get outside with a pair of shoes that you stole from Wal Mart, they are your shoes. They no longer belong to Wal Mart

[Elessar]

I just came across this thread since Noir posted, havent read every post, but wanted to add this.

Of course what you say is true, BUT it is also not quite true.

For example, if I have a car and you steal it, obviously it is still my car and I'm not likely to let that go. Not to mention we have documentation to clearly prove ownership of vehicles.

On the other hand, if I have a watch and you steal it, unless its a pretty damn special watch I'm probably not going to be overly concerned with proving its still mine even though you stole it.

Large companies like Wal Mart use this philosophy all the time, and call it shrinkage. If you attempt to steal a large money item like a TV or something, they are going to attempt to stop you and prevent you from stealing THEIR merchandise. On the other hand, they do virtually nothing to prevent the theft of small items effectively relinquishing ownership via theft by their inaction to prevent it. If you manage to get outside with a pair of shoes that you stole from Wal Mart, they are your shoes. They no longer belong to Wal Mart

You cannot argue simple examples with a simpleton! It just shoots over their narrow mind.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Now we are moving from talking of ownership to states of being, characteristics, etc.
We need our resident poet to write about how the river is never the same twice. :cool:

I wish my body was the same as it once was, lol. And my mind, too. The mental acuity I had, say, taking the bar exam, was quite better than it is as I write this. And my thoughts and wisdom, I guess, have evolved/matured as well. But at the core, I am still “me”.

To your point (?), if my consciousness could be transferred to another body, whatever is “me” would go with it. The body is just a handy container, and not really determinative of self. But it’s still mine. At least until I am pregnant; then I share it with another being.

Sorry Abbey, I meant to write as you suggested but I forgot..
Now seeing this thread again I will compose a quick one, just for you my friend.
Dedicated to Abbey, a friend that stirred my muse .. -Tyr

O'mighty River, I Stand Aghast At Thy Great Change

O'mighty river, I can give to thee my thanks
for the fish that have fed me in times that were slim
for days of my fishing from thy great shaded banks
for swimming that kept me athletic and so trim.

O'mighty river, have you seen how I now weep
how my youthful body its figure has now lost
now thy hot banks are not shaded and far too steep
and swimming in your waters comes at higher costs!

O'mighty river, has thy tasty fish all fled
those muddy waters no longer beckoning sweet
I see thy once great flow moves as one almost dead
did change come from Nature's bounty or its defeat?

O'mighty river, have you seen how I now weep.
Now thy hot banks are not shaded and far too steep.

Robert J. Lindley, 10-28-2019
Sonnet, ( What Time Ravages, Life Must Then Truly Accept.)

[Abbey Marie]

Sorry Abbey, I meant to write as you suggested but I forgot..
Now seeing this thread again I will compose a quick one, just for you my friend.
Dedicated to Abbey, a friend that stirred my muse .. -Tyr

O'mighty River, I Stand Aghast At Thy Great Change

O'mighty river, I can give to thee my thanks
for the fish that have fed me in times that were slim
for days of my fishing from thy great shaded banks
for swimming that kept me athletic and so trim.

O'mighty river, have you seen how I now weep
how my youthful body its figure has now lost
now thy hot banks are not shaded and far too steep
and swimming in your waters comes at higher costs!

O'mighty river, has thy tasty fish all fled
those muddy waters no longer beckoning sweet
I see thy once great flow moves as one almost dead
did change come from Nature's bounty or its defeat?

O'mighty river, have you seen how I now weep.
Now thy hot banks are not shaded and far too steep.

Robert J. Lindley, 10-28-2019
Sonnet, ( What Time Ravages, Life Must Then Truly Accept.)

Somehow I missed this- lovely poem, Robert!

And since the thread is open again, anyone want to comment on Noir’s premise now?

[Black Diamond]

https://youtu.be/seqaTuXkqFI

[fj1200]

Well, @Noir (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=517) agree with you or not, I appreciate the thread. Maybe I’m different, but I enjoy these types of discussions. Everything doesn’t need to be about politics and so very serious.

Yeah, not sure why a "religion/ethics" thread was tried to take so political. It is an interesting question.


I’m going to take a second run at this thread.

Having re-read, I think a big communication problem was rooted in the idea of “Ownership” so I want to take than back a step, and propose that “attachment” is the hidden hand pulling the lever.

Attachment to a watch is a path to suffering.

While it is still my watch there is no sense in dwelling on the loss and one needs to let go otherwise they will be consumed by it. A stoic may acknowledge that they can't change the status of the watch and will let it go. Eventually someone else will be able to say that the watch is their's because they do not know the history of the watch.