Good News In Afghanistan?

[Kathianne]

If getting our troops out is the only end game, then I guess this is a win.

I suppose a bit of tempering regarding 'success' may be in order. Notice the Taliban and Afghanistan government really aren't communicating, indeed the Taliban continues to attack both the military and civil police. So, the issues there and likely Afghanistan as a sanctuary for terrorists will revert. I don't think that their agreement could be reached in time for the US elections, if ever.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/taliban-say-differences-resolved-on-us-troop-withdrawal/2019/08/06/c26d9e4c-b80a-11e9-8e83-4e6687e99814_story.html

[STTAB]

If getting our troops out is the only end game, then I guess this is a win.

I suppose a bit of tempering regarding 'success' may be in order. Notice the Taliban and Afghanistan government really aren't communicating, indeed the Taliban continues to attack both the military and civil police. So, the issues there and likely Afghanistan as a sanctuary for terrorists will revert. I don't think that their agreement could be reached in time for the US elections, if ever.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/taliban-say-differences-resolved-on-us-troop-withdrawal/2019/08/06/c26d9e4c-b80a-11e9-8e83-4e6687e99814_story.html

I said the other day I wish Trump would just withdraw form Afghanistan and let them sink or swim. I don't care about Democracy for people who dont care themselves.

[Kathianne]

I said the other day I wish Trump would just withdraw form Afghanistan and let them sink or swim. I don't care about Democracy for people who dont care themselves.


There really wasn't 'democracy building' here, but you're going to get your wish. Hope it's not your kids that have to return there in x number of years.

[STTAB]

There really wasn't 'democracy building' here, but you're going to get your wish. Hope it's not your kids that have to return there in x number of years.

Both my sons (one biological one unofficially adopted) have been there, the one we unofficially adopted is there now. He's a US Army helicopter pilot.

[Kathianne]

Both my sons (one biological one unofficially adopted) have been there, the one we unofficially adopted is there now. He's a US Army helicopter pilot.

I thought your kids were littles, my mistake. Thank them for their service. I hope their kids don't have to go back and pick up where they are leaving off.

[STTAB]

I thought your kids were littles, my mistake. Thank them for their service. I hope their kids don't have to go back and pick up where they are leaving off.

I have 8 kids if you count the two we just took into foster a few weeks ago, ranging in age from 27 to 3 LOL

I've got my hands full.

[Kathianne]

I have 8 kids if you count the two we just took into foster a few weeks ago, ranging in age from 27 to 3 LOL

I've got my hands full.

Good on you. How many have died in Afghanistan, now we're pulling out without what this President said was imperative, that their be agreement between the Taliban and Afghan government. Thus, when the country returns to a haven for terrorism those men and women will have died in vain. If history is a guide, they will be followed by others down the road-after the US or major ally is hit hard again.

[STTAB]

Good on you. How many have died in Afghanistan, now we're pulling out without what this President said was imperative, that their be agreement between the Taliban and Afghan government. Thus, when the country returns to a haven for terrorism those men and women will have died in vain. If history is a guide, they will be followed by others down the road-after the US or major ally is hit hard again.

At some point you just have to say "this cant be fixed" Do we stay in Afghanistan and fight terrorists there in perpetuity? Cuz they aint going anywhere and the Afghans will NEVER be in a position to be our strong ally in the fight. They aren't capable.


And US soldiers who die in the course of their lawful activities don't die in vain. That's actually an insult to every US soldier who has been killed anywhere.

[Kathianne]

At some point you just have to say "this cant be fixed" Do we stay in Afghanistan and fight terrorists there in perpetuity? Cuz they aint going anywhere and the Afghans will NEVER be in a position to be our strong ally in the fight. They aren't capable.


And US soldiers who die in the course of their lawful activities don't die in vain. That's actually an insult to every US soldier who has been killed anywhere.

I disagree. It is an insult to any of our military to send them into any conflict without a bottom line to fight to win. They are not peacekeepers. Last week the commander-in-chief said that, 'we're now down to 9k troops, not 14k as reported. Those 9k will be home very soon, once the Taliban and Afghan government come to agreement of how to go forward.'

Today, 'the US will be removing troops, pending its agreements with Taliban. The US is restoring the Taliban to power.

No matter what WMDs or other problems that may come from Afghanistan in the years ahead, I will not support any efforts to deal with those problems.

Not for US or attacks on allies. There comes a point to say, 'stop.' Surrender in honesty is better than this 'win.'

[STTAB]

I disagree. It is an insult to any of our military to send them into any conflict without a bottom line to fight to win. They are not peacekeepers. Last week the commander-in-chief said that, 'we're now down to 9k troops, not 14k as reported. Those 9k will be home very soon, once the Taliban and Afghan government come to agreement of how to go forward.'

Today, 'the US will be removing troops, pending its agreements with Taliban. The US is restoring the Taliban to power.

No matter what WMDs or other problems that may come from Afghanistan in the years ahead, I will not support any efforts to deal with those problems.

Not for US or attacks on allies. There comes a point to say, 'stop.' Surrender in honesty is better than this 'win.'

Of course the US military should only be used to "win" but what does win mean? We've fucked AQ up beyond their wildest nightmares. Is that a win?

Do we only consider it a win if we turn Afghanistan into a stable pro US democracy? If so, we'll never win that war, EVER. So yeah time to get out.

Is a win telling the Afghan people, hey we tried , you people suck, put whomever you want in charge, but if you fuck with us, we'll be back?"

Is a win spending $8T on a nation over the course of 18 years and it still being the same dysfunctional shit hole it was when you got there?

9/11 was supposed to be the start for AQ, not the sole event, and yet 18 years later our efforts have resulted in there being zero further attacks.

And of course that doesn't even address the fact that it wasn't even fucking Afghanistan who was behind 9/11 anyway, they were just a convenient country to attack , but that backfired as most government plans do.

[Kathianne]

Of course the US military should only be used to "win" but what does win mean? We've fucked AQ up beyond their wildest nightmares. Is that a win?

Do we only consider it a win if we turn Afghanistan into a stable pro US democracy? If so, we'll never win that war, EVER. So yeah time to get out.

Is a win telling the Afghan people, hey we tried , you people suck, put whomever you want in charge, but if you fuck with us, we'll be back?"

Is a win spending $8T on a nation over the course of 18 years and it still being the same dysfunctional shit hole it was when you got there?

9/11 was supposed to be the start for AQ, not the sole event, and yet 18 years later our efforts have resulted in there being zero further attacks.

And of course that doesn't even address the fact that it wasn't even fucking Afghanistan who was behind 9/11 anyway, they were just a convenient country to attack , but that backfired as most government plans do.


The reasoning stated LAST WEEK was for Taliban and Afghan government to work out how to govern.

No pretending pro-democracy, that is your falsely crafted spin.

[STTAB]

The reasoning stated LAST WEEK was for Taliban and Afghan government to work out how to govern.

No pretending pro-democracy, that is your falsely crafted spin.

I've already stated I DISAGREE WITH OUR AFGHAN POLICY. I think we should have left years ago.

If you're wanting me to say Trump is full of shit for doing a complete 180 here, that's no sweat off my balls He obviously has. I just don't care because I agree with getting out. You disagree, fine.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Russia spent decades mired down in Afghanistan only to also tuck tail and go home. We watched it all and didn't learn jack.

We should have never been in there in the first place. We should have never invaded Iraq either.

[Elessar]

I said the other day I wish Trump would just withdraw form Afghanistan and let them sink or swim. I don't care about Democracy for people who dont care themselves.

We have been there too long. Those people do not want to settle down and act civilized.

A lot of American and allied blood has been spilled trying to mold that county into
a non-heathen waste land.

Time to pull out with all of our gear.

[Kathianne]

Months, not years:

It's CNN, but the report is from the Pentagon

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/06/politics/pentagon-report-isis-syria/index.html?utm_medium=social&utm_content=2019-08-07T11%3A29%3A19&utm_source=twCNN&utm_term=link


Pentagon report says ISIS is 're-surging in Syria'


By Ryan Browne, CNN


Updated 7:00 PM ET, Tue August 6, 2019

...

[Kathianne]

If getting our troops out is the only end game, then I guess this is a win.

I suppose a bit of tempering regarding 'success' may be in order. Notice the Taliban and Afghanistan government really aren't communicating, indeed the Taliban continues to attack both the military and civil police. So, the issues there and likely Afghanistan as a sanctuary for terrorists will revert. I don't think that their agreement could be reached in time for the US elections, if ever.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/taliban-say-differences-resolved-on-us-troop-withdrawal/2019/08/06/c26d9e4c-b80a-11e9-8e83-4e6687e99814_story.html


Ah success arrives! No matter that the Taliban is going all out to kill as many Americans as possible in closing days. No matter that Afghan government has basically walked away, 'betrayal.' We are bugging out, which is Success!

http://icasualties.org/



https://hotair.com/archives/ed-morrissey/2019/09/06/pompeo-succeeded-afghanistan/


Pompeo: We Have “Succeeded” In AfghanistanED MORRISSEYPosted at 10:01 am on September 6, 2019




Just how close are we to a deal with the Taliban? Close enough, the Washington Post notes, that the Trump administration has begun to declare victory in preparation for departing the field. Mike Pompeo carefully parsed this victory as pertaining to the “original mission” of the war in Afghanistan in an interview with the Daily Signal:


Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said the United States has “delivered” on its mission to oust al-Qaeda from Afghanistan and deter terrorist attacks plotted in the country and neighboring Pakistan.


The top diplomat’s upbeat message came ahead of a potential announcement of a peace deal between the United States and Taliban that has been tested by repeated Taliban bombings and is opposed by President Trump’s national security adviser.


In an interview published Wednesday with the Daily Signal, a news outlet affiliated with the conservative Heritage Foundation, Pompeo said American forces engaged in the United States’ longest war have been “successful” in achieving their original mission.


Oddly (nor maybe not so much), the Post doesn’t actually provide a link to the Daily Signal article. Nevertheless, their characterization of Pompeo’s remarks matches that of the Daily Signal’s Nolan Peterson, who took note of the “shifting goal posts” of the Secretary of State:


“If you go back and look at the days following 9/11, the objectives set out were pretty clear: to go defeat al-Qaeda, the group that had launched the attack on the United States of America from Afghanistan. And today, al-Qaeda … doesn’t even amount to a shadow of its former self in Afghanistan,” Pompeo told The Daily Signal in an exclusive interview.


“We have delivered,” the secretary of state added in the telephone interview. …


Despite the shifting goal posts for what victory in Afghanistan looks like, Pompeo said U.S. forces have been “successful” in achieving their original mission.


“There is a real achievement that has taken place, and we have in fact for now almost two decades greatly reduced the risk that an attack on the United States of America would emanate from Afghan soil, or for that matter from Pakistan as well,” Pompeo told The Daily Signal.


Peterson’s not the only one noticing the goalposts moving. The Afghan government has publicly objected to the deal forming between the US and the Taliban, in part because the Afghan government doesn’t have much say in it. However, president Ashraf Ghani also criticizes the proposal because it doesn’t have any enforcement mechanism if the Taliban break their word:


The Afghan government is criticizing parts of a proposed U.S.-Taliban deal to withdraw U.S. and other foreign forces from Afghanistan, saying the accord contains no clear penalties if the insurgency fails to comply.


Zalmay Khalilzad, the chief U.S. negotiator to the Afghan peace process, said this week that he had completed an agreement in principle with the insurgents, more than a year after Washington resumed direct talks with Taliban officials in the Gulf state of Qatar. Mr. Khalilzad told a local television station on Monday that the deal awaited only President Trump’s approval.


That would explain why Pompeo’s on a PR campaign to declare victory on the “original mission.” The mission quickly evolved into a project to restore human rights and democracy in Afghanistan, however, and the US and NATO have spent almost two decades attempting to shore up Kabul’s recognized government as the sole legitimate power in the country. At some point, that government has to stand on its own, but the terms of the peace deal appear to divide that legitimacy with the Taliban’s claim of an “emirate” — apparently with the US’ blessing:


“It is not clear what happens if and when the Taliban fail to comply with the commitments they’re making to the U.S.,” a senior official said. “There’s no guarantee of any action.”


The government also complained about the U.S. allowing the Taliban to sign the accord as “the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan.” Whether to call the country an emirate or—as the government and the international community officially refer to it—the “Islamic Republic of Afghanistan” is an issue to be discussed in Norway.


By using it in the Doha accord, the U.S. is “giving the Taliban a legitimacy, almost puts them in a position of being a government,” the official said. “The U.S. never called them that. We never call them that—we called them terrorists. This is the first time this has happened.”


Speaking of which … here’s the “emirate” in action:




CBS This Morning
✔
@CBSThisMorning
An American is among two NATO service members killed in the latest Taliban attack in the capital of Afghanistan. The car bomb in Kabul yesterday killed 12 people and wounded 42 others. @charliecbs is in Afghanistan with more:




While it’s getting more difficult to explain what our goals are in Afghanistan, this doesn’t look like “success” or victory. It looks like we’re bugging out, and we’re betraying the people we asked to help pull Afghanistan back into modernity by leaving them at the mercy of the thugs. Expect that lesson to be long remembered by more strategic potential allies than the Afghans.

[STTAB]

Ah success arrives! No matter that the Taliban is going all out to kill as many Americans as possible in closing days. No matter that Afghan government has basically walked away, 'betrayal.' We are bugging out, which is Success!

http://icasualties.org/



https://hotair.com/archives/ed-morrissey/2019/09/06/pompeo-succeeded-afghanistan/


I don't actually know ANYONE who is saying we won anything in Afghanistan Kath, so not sure who you and the author of your article are admonishing.

In fact , that is precisely why I want to get out of there. I'm tired of our men and women being killed and wounded in a war where we have no clear goals other than some vague idea of bringing democracy to a people who don't even understand the most basic concept of democracy.

How many trillions of dollars must we spend and how many lives must be lost before you say "wait, we've been at war 40 years now, this isn't working?"

[Kathianne]

I don't actually know ANYONE who is saying we won anything in Afghanistan Kath, so not sure who you and the author of your article are admonishing.

In fact , that is precisely why I want to get out of there. I'm tired of our men and women being killed and wounded in a war where we have no clear goals other than some vague idea of bringing democracy to a people who don't even understand the most basic concept of democracy.

How many trillions of dollars must we spend and how many lives must be lost before you say "wait, we've been at war 40 years now, this isn't working?"


Hey, it's 'WINNING!' When it makes you happy.

[STTAB]

Hey, it's 'WINNING!' When it makes you happy.
^ You are certainly above that type of response.

[Kathianne]

^ You are certainly above that type of response.

Actually, not. Even you should be able to see I've been saying this is wrong for those that have served and all those who've died. Those that went along with serving the 'government' in Afghanistan, those that dealt with us in good faith? The Taliban will kill.

Promises made. Promises kept?

Agreement in principle. With the Taliban. Winning!

[STTAB]

Actually, not. Even you should be able to see I've been saying this is wrong for those that have served and all those who've died. Those that went along with serving the 'government' in Afghanistan, those that dealt with us in good faith? The Taliban will kill.

Promises made. Promises kept?

Agreement in principle. With the Taliban. Winning!


And you don't think it's wrong to stay over in perpetuity once we recognize that there is no "winning?"

At no point in this thread have yous stated what you think our goal should be, or at what point you would say "we just can't get it done here"

Trump got stuck with a war started by one President and continued by another, at some point SOMEONE has to get us out of there.

If the Afghan people don't care that their government has made a deal with the Taliban, why should we?

Do you recall from your history courses that the US made a deal which allowed the Emperor of Japan to remain in position in his country ? Sometimes you have to make deals that you don't love to get out of bad situations.

[Kathianne]

And you don't think it's wrong to stay over in perpetuity once we recognize that there is no "winning?"

At no point in this thread have yous stated what you think our goal should be, or at what point you would say "we just can't get it done here"

Trump got stuck with a war started by one President and continued by another, at some point SOMEONE has to get us out of there.

If the Afghan people don't care that their government has made a deal with the Taliban, why should we?

Do you recall from your history courses that the US made a deal which allowed the Emperor of Japan to remain in position in his country ? Sometimes you have to make deals that you don't love to get out of bad situations.

I would never try to compare our history knowledge.

I do think whomever is president has to take things where they lie. Thus, perhaps he should have listened a couple years ago, to attempts to get things back to getting rid/driving down the Taliban, stop with the building government, beyond hardening those already in place. We should have been dealing in the good faith with the government we DID help to establish and then get out.

That's called, Promises kept.

[STTAB]

I would never try to compare our history knowledge.

I do think whomever is president has to take things where they lie. Thus, perhaps he should have listened a couple years ago, to attempts to get things back to getting rid/driving down the Taliban, stop with the building government, beyond hardening those already in place. We should have been dealing in the good faith with the government we DID help to establish and then get out.

That's called, Promises kept.


Sometimes it's not so easy to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. However, I will say this, and I've always said this. don't think Trump REALLY thought he was gonna win in 2016, so he never had a team of HIS people ready to go at key positions and so he's always been relying on advice from people who just frankly have neither his best interest nor the best interest of this country in mind.

The truth is DC is full of fucking warhawks who are getting rich off the perpetual state of war we are in, on BOTH sides of the aisle and if giving the President, Congress and the American people a bunch of fucking lies to protect their war is what they have to do, that's what they will do.

[Kathianne]

A step too far? "They admitted it!"

The US has been 'in talks' with the party, (Taliban) that kills our troops; allows ISIS and al Queda into Afghanistan;and who refuses to work with the Afghan government, elected with US military help.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/460396-trump-cancels-secret-meeting-with-taliban-leaders-afghan-president


Trump cancels secret meeting with Taliban leaders, Afghan president after attack
BY JOHN BOWDEN AND MORGAN CHALFANT - 09/07/19 07:10 PM EDT

SPONSORED: IRAN: THE UNTOLD STORY
TheHill.com
Trump cancels secret meeting with Taliban leaders, Afghan president after attack
BY JOHN BOWDEN AND MORGAN CHALFANT - 09/07/19 07:10 PM EDT 2,648
1,943

President Trump announced Saturday he had canceled a planned secret meeting with leaders of the Taliban and Afghanistan's president at Camp David.


Trump also said he had called off negotiations with the insurgent group after Taliban leadership claimed credit for a deadly attack in Kabul.


In a series of tweets, the president condemned Taliban commanders for an attack in the Afghan capital that killed 11 civilians and a U.S. service member and questioned whether the leaders of the militant group could negotiate a "meaningful" peace agreement.

"Unbeknownst to almost everyone, the major Taliban leaders and, separately, the President of Afghanistan, were going to secretly meet with me at Camp David on Sunday. They were coming to the United States tonight. Unfortunately, in order to build false leverage, they admitted to an attack in Kabul that killed one of our great great soldiers, and 11 other people," Trump tweeted.


"I immediately cancelled the meeting and called off peace negotiations. What kind of people would kill so many in order to seemingly strengthen their bargaining position?" he asked.


"They didn’t, they only made it worse! If they cannot agree to a ceasefire during these very important peace talks, and would even kill 12 innocent people, then they probably don’t have the power to negotiate a meaningful agreement anyway. How many more decades are they willing to fight?" Trump finished.

...



Donald J. Trump

✔

@realDonaldTrump

· 2h

Replying to @realDonaldTrump

....an attack in Kabul that killed one of our great great soldiers, and 11 other people. I immediately cancelled the meeting and called off peace negotiations. What kind of people would kill so many in order to seemingly strengthen their bargaining position? They didn’t, they....







Donald J. Trump

✔

@realDonaldTrump

....only made it worse! If they cannot agree to a ceasefire during these very important peace talks, and would even kill 12 innocent people, then they probably don’t have the power to negotiate a meaningful agreement anyway. How many more decades are they willing to fight?




31K

3:51 PM - Sep 7, 2019

...

The White House has not provided more information about the president’s tweets in response to a request from The Hill. The details surrounding the meeting referenced by Trump were unclear.


The Trump administration has been negotiating for months with Taliban leaders from the group's political office in Doha, Qatar, despite the group's refusal to engage directly with the Afghan government, which it views as a U.S. puppet.


A spokesperson for the militant group took credit for a Monday bombing in Kabul that killed 12 people in an interview with The Associated Press, claiming that it gave the group a stronger bargaining position.


“[W]e understand that peace talks are going on ... but they must also understand that we are not weak and if we enter into talks ... we enter from a strong position,” the spokesperson said.


Five Taliban assailants were reportedly shot and killed by Afghan security forces following the attack.


U.S. envoy Zalmay Khalilzad announced earlier this week that the Trump administration had reached an agreement "in principle" to shutter several bases and withdraw 5,000 troops from the country within about five months in exchange for a peace deal with the Taliban.


Trump campaigned on withdrawing U.S. troops from Afghanistan during 2016 to end America's longest war, but has faced hurdles in fulfilling that promise.


Military leaders have argued for the need or a continued presence in Afghanistan, where the United States currently has roughly 14,000 troops. Trump has also faced pressure from his Republican allies on Capitol Hill, like Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.), who have warned against a full withdrawal from the worn-torn country.

...

[Kathianne]

A Pre-9/11 Mindset Returning?

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/09/afghanistan-airport-security-turn-toward-pre-9-11-mindset/


The Turn Toward a Pre-9/11 Mindset
By ANDREW C. MCCARTHY
September 7, 2019 6:30 AM

...

What is now happening is a turn to a pre-9/11 security footing. Notice, I said a turn, not a return. It remains to be seen whether, in reality, we have gotten to the point where our threat environment is what it was thought to be before the onslaught; yet, the country has determined to conduct itself as if that were the case.


It’s a bold experiment. I doubt that it will work, though I’d love to be wrong.


Signs of the change were all around us this week, at home and half a world away. In Virginia, a federal judge invalidated the Terrorist Screening Database, a watch list secretly compiled by the government, which subjects those listed to heightened security vetting before they are permitted to board commercial aircraft. In Kabul, the Trump administration’s envoy struck an agreement in principle to reduce the number of American troops in Afghanistan, with an eye toward a withdrawal that would purportedly “end” what the president describes as our “endless” war — U.S. forces having invaded the country in those tense days, 18 years ago.

...

The regrettable legacy of 9/11 and its ambiguous aftermath is the intrusion of the courts into the national-security realm. Judges, whom we insulate from politics, have no constitutional responsibility for national defense. It is supposed to be left to the elected officials accountable to the people whose lives are at stake.


There is wisdom in making national-security decisions political rather than legal. The law strives for rigorous logic, a one-size-fits-all balancing of public-safety concerns against individual rights. Over time, judges reliably expand both the ambit of these rights and the categories of entitled individuals — to include even non-Americans who bear no responsibilities of citizenship, and even enemies who make war on Americans.



...

Intelligence-based security can be effective only if the government can collect and analyze it in secret. Otherwise, we will get scant cooperation from key sources of threat information, from foreign intelligence services to people who’ve been admonished to say something if they see something. Yet we remain error-prone humans acting on imperfect information. A suspicion that a person could be a threat, however reasonable, will necessarily be wrong in some cases. Some innocent people inevitably will be harassed. On the other hand, if suspected people are given notice of, and a meaningful opportunity to challenge, their placement on the list, the list will no longer be secret. And if it is not secret, it will no longer be effective.


It is Congress that is supposed to wrestle with these tough line-drawing exercises. Legislative power is adaptable. It can adjust our precautions as the threat environment changes. It can adopt metrics that increase or decrease screening, while providing for searching oversight. It can ensure that the FBI and other executive security agencies are making decisions based on proper factors, that there are sensible standards for inclusion in the database, and that the inclusion of individual Americans is periodically reevaluated such that they are removed unless there is a good reason for their continued listing.

The executive is responsible for safeguarding the nation, so it will naturally err on the side of heightened security measures. The courts are a bulwark against government abuse, so judges naturally err on the side of individual rights. That’s why Congress is so essential. Lawmakers are supposed to account for these competing interests. But Congress does not do much legislating anymore. It delegates, leaving members more TV time to complain about how bad things are. While many of us are not fans of having judges draw the lines, someone has to do it. When the politically accountable officials duck, courts must fill the void.

...

Meanwhile, in Afghanistan, the Taliban have greeted the announcement of a near-term U.S. withdrawal not with reciprocal toasts to peace in our time, but with a series of terrorist attacks. The latest (at least as this is written) was on Thursday, killing an American soldier along with a Romanian soldier from our allied forces, as well as eight others.


See, what our government frames as “peace” talks the Taliban are portraying as surrender. They are attacking because they want Afghans to believe they are driving the superpower out in humiliating defeat, just as their mujahideen forebearers drove out the Red Army, hastening the Soviet empire’s collapse.


This week, we learned that former defense secretary James Mattis quit Donald Trump’s administration because, he told the president, he refused to be the Pentagon chief who lost to ISIS in Syria. So far, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has declined to sign off on the “peace” deal negotiated by the administration’s emissary, Zalmay Khalilzad. Obviously, he doesn’t want to be remembered as the foreign-policy chief for an American government that lost to the Taliban.


In the negotiations, the Taliban are insisting that the Trump administration refer to them as the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. That was what their regime was called when it imposed sharia governance on the country from 1996 through late 2001. Those were the years when they gave safe harbor to al-Qaeda, which proceeded to execute mass-murder attacks on American diplomatic, military, political, and economic targets. These culminated, 18 years ago, in 9/11.


As this week reminds us, the Taliban still fights shoulder-to-shoulder with al-Qaeda to kill Americans. When our troops vacate Afghanistan, the Islamic Emirate will be reestablished, the U.S.-backed government will be dismantled, Afghans who allied with the United States will be purged, and al-Qaeda will set up shop again. It will enjoy a status similar to that of Hezbollah in Lebanon: a quasi-government armed force whose main focus is the global jihad.


Its main target is still America.


In 2019, you can declare you’re in a pre-9/11 world. Just like you can declare a war is over because you got tired of fighting. Just like you can declare the aviation precautions are overkill because you’d like them to be. Doesn’t make it so.

[Kathianne]

No one else finds it strange that the White House had plans to honor the Taliban at Camp David? 3 days before the 17 years after 9/11?

[LongTermGuy]

No one else finds it strange that the White House had plans to honor the Taliban at Camp David? 3 days before the 17 years after 9/11?

"Honor" ???....your watching to much CNN......Your comment is strange...

https://66.media.tumblr.com/4d805b3e6f6d373f27170db296c47bca/tumblr_of7y50wj7c1rey868o1_250.gif

[Kathianne]

"Honor" ???....your watching to much CNN......Your comment is strange...

https://66.media.tumblr.com/4d805b3e6f6d373f27170db296c47bca/tumblr_of7y50wj7c1rey868o1_250.gif
Hardly. Camp David invitation is an honor for respected guests of our President. To be offered such is a sign of respect. To offer such to the Taliban? They alloy, encouraged the plotting of bin laden. They are still plotting bringing the US to subjugation. Like the killing of the innocents, they admit it.

[icansayit]

"Honor" ???....your watching to much CNN......Your comment is strange...

https://66.media.tumblr.com/4d805b3e6f6d373f27170db296c47bca/tumblr_of7y50wj7c1rey868o1_250.gif


They accuse Trump of not being qualified for anything. So, when he tries...they accuse him again of Bowing Down to the enemy.

When the meeting is canceled...they do the opposite...same thing in reverse. Still say he had no right to plan such a meeting....Secretly....as if he wanted to Hide it from WE THE PEOPLE.

It's called "BEING STUCK BETWEEN A ROCK, AND A HARD PLACE" or "DAMNED IF YOU DO, DAMNED IF YOU DON'T"

A better word for all of the arranged HATRED for the President is...."HYPOCRISY".

[Kathianne]

They accuse Trump of not being qualified for anything. So, when he tries...they accuse him again of Bowing Down to the enemy.

When the meeting is canceled...they do the opposite...same thing in reverse. Still say he had no right to plan such a meeting....Secretly....as if he wanted to Hide it from WE THE PEOPLE.

It's called "BEING STUCK BETWEEN A ROCK, AND A HARD PLACE" or "DAMNED IF YOU DO, DAMNED IF YOU DON'T"

A better word for all of the arranged HATRED for the President is...."HYPOCRISY".
So you are happy with an invitation to Camp David to those who’s worn to conquer this country.

I guess that’s the new definition of heroes?

[Kathianne]

To be clear, I don't have a problem with the US trying to negotiate a peace with our enemies. I do have a problem with treating sworn enemies as honored guests, which an invitation to Camp David infers.

This President hasn't a problem in treating allies with less honors than this.

Pretty much the Afghan government is much like the Czech President at the Munich Pact. So now the US is Chamberlain?

IF not for the Taliban boasting about killing the marine and 11 others, this would have happened. The mistake wasn't in killing this time or for the past few months, it was boasting to the news reporters about their reasoning, of 'gaining strength' for the negotiations. Without a doubt, the Taliban would have gained the title of The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan.

If they'd just 'stfu' it would have been a deal.

[Kathianne]

Know your history or repeat. Oh hell, when bound & determined we'll repeat just for the hell of it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Emirate_of_Afghanistan


Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan


1996–2001


"There is no god but God. Muhammad is the messenger of God."


Kabul (official)
Kandahar (de facto)[1]
Common languages
Pashto (official)[2]
Dari and other languages of Afghanistan
Religion Sunni Islam
Government Unitary Islamic theocracy under a totalitarian dictatorship
Amir al-Mu'minin (Leader of the Faithful)[3][4][5]
Head of the Supreme Council[6][7][8]
• 1996–2001
Mohammed Omar
Prime Minister
• 1996–2001
Mohammad Rabbani
• 2001
Abdul Kabir (acting)
Legislature Jirga
Historical era Afghan Civil War / War on Terror
• Rise to Power
27 September[9] 1996
• Battle of Tora Bora (2001)
17 December 2001
Area
2000 587,578 km2 (226,865 sq mi)
Population
• 2001
26,813,057
Currency Afghani
Calling code +93
ISO 3166 code AF
Preceded by Succeeded by
Islamic State of Afghanistan
Islamic State of Afghanistan


The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan[10] (Pashto: د افغانستان اسلامي امارات‎, Da Afghanistan Islami Amarat) was a totalitarian[11][12][13] Islamic state established in September 1996 when the Taliban began their rule of Afghanistan after the fall of Kabul. At its peak, the Taliban established control over approximately 90% of the country, whereas remaining parts of the country in the northeast were held by the Northern Alliance, who maintained broad international recognition as a continuation of the Islamic State of Afghanistan.[14] After 9/11, international opposition to the regime drastically increased, with diplomatic recognition from the United Arab Emirates, and Pakistan being rescinded. The Islamic Emirate ceased to exist on December 17, 2001, after being overthrown by the Northern Alliance, which had been bolstered by a US-led invasion of the country.

...

[Kathianne]

Ho Hum... We don't care!

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-afghanistan/afghan-government-urges-taliban-to-stop-violence-hold-direct-talks-idUSKCN1VT05L



WORLD NEWSSEPTEMBER 8, 2019 / 12:02 AM / UPDATED 27 MINUTES AGO
More Americans will die after Trump abruptly ends Afghan talks, Taliban say
Abdul Qadir Sediqi, Doina Chiacu

KABUL/WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Donald Trump’s decision to cancel Afghan peace talks will cost more American lives, the Taliban said on Sunday while the United States promised to keep up military pressure on the militants, in a stunning reversal of efforts to forge a deal ending nearly 20 years of war in Afghanistan.


The Islamist group issued a statement hours after Trump unexpectedly canceled planned secret talks with the Taliban’s “major leaders” at the presidential compound in Camp David, Maryland. He broke off the talks after the Taliban claimed responsibility for an attack in Kabul last week that killed an American soldier and 11 others.


Zabihullah Mujahid, a Taliban spokesman, criticized Trump for calling off the dialogue and said U.S. forces have been pounding Afghanistan with attacks at the same time.

“This will lead to more losses to the U.S.,” he said in a statement. “Its credibility will be affected, its anti-peace stance will be exposed to the world, losses to lives and assets will increase.”


Elections in Afghanistan becoming more necessary by the hour, says EU special envoy
In Washington, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said that Afghan peace talks were on hold and Washington would not withdraw troops from the region until it was convinced the Taliban could follow through on any significant commitments.


The United States has recalled U.S. special envoy for Afghanistan Zalmay Khalilzad to chart the path forward, Pompeo said in appearances on Sunday TV news shows. Asked on “Fox News Sunday” whether Afghan talks were dead, Pompeo said, “For the time being they are.”


Trump has long wanted to end U.S. involvement in Afghanistan - since his days as a candidate - and American diplomats have been talking with Taliban representatives for months about a plan to withdraw thousands of American troops in exchange for security guarantees by the Taliban.


U.S. and Taliban negotiators struck a draft peace deal last week that could have led to a drawdown of troops from America’s longest war. There are currently 14,000 U.S. forces as well as thousands of other NATO troops in the country, 18 years after its invasion by a U.S.-led coalition following the Sept. 11, 2001, al Qaeda attacks on the United States.


Fighting in Afghanistan has continued amid the talks and recent assaults by the Taliban cast doubts over the draft deal.


CAMP DAVID SURPRISE
Asked about the Camp David meeting scheduled for Sunday, Pompeo said Trump decided to get personally involved to get the agreement to the finish line.


“President Trump ultimately made the decision,” Pompeo told Fox. “He said, ‘I want to talk to (President) Ashraf Ghani. I want to talk to these Taliban negotiators. I want to look them in the eye. I want to see if we can get to the final outcome we needed.’”


Trump was criticized, even by some fellow Republicans, for having offered to host on U.S. soil a militant group that has killed American troops and had sheltered al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden after the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.


Republican U.S. Representatives Adam Kinzinger and Liz Cheney said the Taliban were still fighting Americans and harboring its enemies.


“Camp David is where America’s leaders met to plan our response after al Qaeda, supported by the Taliban, killed 3000 Americans on 9/11,” Cheney, whose father, Dick Cheney, was U.S. vice president at the time of the attacks, wrote on Twitter on Sunday. “No member of the Taliban should set foot there. Ever.” :clap:


Americans will on Wednesday mark the 18th anniversary of the al Qaeda attacks that killed more than 3,000 people in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania.
Never forget. :rolleyes:



Taliban fighters, who now control more territory than at any time since 2001, launched assaults over the past week that included a suicide attack in Kabul on Thursday that killed U.S. Army Sergeant 1st Class Elis A. Barreto Ortiz, 34, from Puerto Rico, bringing the number of American troops killed in Afghanistan this year to 16.


Pompeo said the United States will not let up on military support for Afghan troops until the Taliban take the necessary steps to show they are serious about peace.


Earlier this month, senior security officials in Kabul said joint air raids by U.S. and Afghan forces against the Taliban have not subsided. Pompeo said more than 1,000 Taliban fighters have been killed in Afghanistan in the last 10 days.


“If the Taliban don’t behave, if they don’t deliver on the commitments that they’ve made to us now for weeks, and in some cases months, the president is not going to reduce the pressure, we’re not going to reduce our support for the Afghan security forces that have fought so hard there in Afghanistan,” Pompeo said in an interview with CNN’s “State of the Union.”


“We’re not just going to withdraw because there’s a timeline,” he said.


Reporting by Abdul Qadir Sediqi and Hamid Shalizi in Kabul, Doina Chiacu, Valerie Volcovici and Steve Holland in Washington; Editing by Mary Milliken and Howard Goller

[icansayit]

So you are happy with an invitation to Camp David to those who’s worn to conquer this country.

I guess that’s the new definition of heroes?


Tell me where I said I was happy. Then...tell us all. What did you have to say, or think about President Reagan inviting Russian Premier Gorbachev....during the Long....COLD WAR?

Or, how about this? "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer."
This has often been attributed to Sun Tzu and sometimes to Petrarch. It comes most directly from a line spoken by Michael Corleone in The Godfather Part II (1974), written by Mario Puzo and Francis Ford Coppola: My father taught me many things here.
(Some trust it was Sun-tzu, a Chinese general and military strategist, however his citation was different. He said, " Know your enemy and know yourself and you will always be victorious.")

[Kathianne]

Tell me where I said I was happy. Then...tell us all. What did you have to say, or think about President Reagan inviting Russian Premier Gorbachev....during the Long....COLD WAR?

Or, how about this? "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer."
This has often been attributed to Sun Tzu and sometimes to Petrarch. It comes most directly from a line spoken by Michael Corleone in The Godfather Part II (1974), written by Mario Puzo and Francis Ford Coppola: My father taught me many things here.
(Some trust it was Sun-tzu, a Chinese general and military strategist, however his citation was different. He said, " Know your enemy and know yourself and you will always be victorious.")


Honestly? You don't see a difference between Gorbachev and the Taliban? I am familiar with the Godfather movies. I do think there's more than a bit of truth in the saying.

That's not what we're talking about though. http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?67357-Good-News-In-Afghanistan&p=942797#post942797

My point in the beginning was about honest dealings-not leaving Afghanistan to revert to 9/10/01. Since last night, it's about honor, not giving it to those unworthy. The Taliban are not worthy.

Your point and that of your antisemitic friend seem to be Trump. If he's for it, the tingle just won't let go. It's ok now, for this minute he's not for it.

[icansayit]

Honestly? You don't see a difference between Gorbachev and the Taliban? I am familiar with the Godfather movies. I do think there's more than a bit of truth in the saying.

That's not what we're talking about though. http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?67357-Good-News-In-Afghanistan&p=942797#post942797

My point in the beginning was about honest dealings-not leaving Afghanistan to revert to 9/10/01. Since last night, it's about honor, not giving it to those unworthy. The Taliban are not worthy.

Your point and that of your antisemitic friend seem to be Trump. If he's for it, the tingle just won't let go. It's ok now, for this minute he's not for it.

I should have remembered what I said last week, here on DP. Be sure to attend every Democrat Rally out there. Seems like you could teach them much more than they know.

My Mistake.

[Kathianne]

I should have remembered what I said last week, here on DP. Be sure to attend every Democrat Rally out there. Seems like you could teach them much more than they know.

My Mistake.

No problem. I know two swings and you're done and resort to...well nothing.

Have a good night.

[Kathianne]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/09/08/president-trump-criticized-taliban-camp-david/2255653001/
...

Republican Rep. Adam Kinzinger, an Air Force veteran who flew missions throughout the Middle East -- including Afghanistan, said members of the group should "NEVER" be allowed in the U.S.



https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/694232632503201794/JoCP5r3E_bigger.png (https://twitter.com/RepKinzinger)Adam Kinzinger
✔@RepKinzinger (https://twitter.com/RepKinzinger)

Never should leaders of a terrorist organization that hasn’t renounced 9/11 and continues in evil be allowed in our great country. NEVER. Full stop. https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1170469618177236992 … (https://t.co/pagnRFuFtc)
Donald J. Trump
✔@realDonaldTrump


Unbeknownst to almost everyone, the major Taliban leaders and, separately, the President of Afghanistan, were going to secretly meet with me at Camp David on Sunday. They were coming to the United States tonight. Unfortunately, in order to build false leverage, they admitted to..
(https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1170469618177236992)
12.8K (https://twitter.com/intent/like?tweet_id=1170500356763193351)
5:53 PM - Sep 7, 2019 (https://twitter.com/RepKinzinger/status/1170500356763193351)



"Never should leaders of a terrorist organization that hasn’t renounced 9/11 and continues in evil be allowed in our great country," tweeted Kinzinger, R-Ill. "NEVER. Full stop."

Others pointed to posts the president made while his predecessor, Barack Obama, was in the White House and working to negotiate a peace deal in Afghanistan.
"While @BarackObama is slashing the military, he is also negotiating with our sworn enemy the Taliban--who facilitated 9/11," Trump wrote in 2012.



https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/874276197357596672/kUuht00m_bigger.jpg (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump)Donald J. Trump
✔@realDonaldTrump (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump)

While @BarackObama (https://twitter.com/BarackObama) is slashing the military, he is also negotiating with our sworn enemy the Taliban--who facilitated 9/11.



But the controversial meeting and its cancelation have boosted uncertainty over Trump's hopes to fulfill a campaign promise in ending America's longest war and bringing U.S. troops home from Afghanistan.
On Sunday, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said the peace talks were dead "for now" and defended Trump's now aborted meeting.

"The Taliban tried to gain negotiating advantage by conducting terror attacks inside of the country," Pompeo said on CNN's 'State of the Union,' one in a string of television interviews he conducted Sunday. "It made no sense for the Taliban to be rewarded for that kind of bad behavior."

After the 9/11 attacks, U.S.-led forces invaded Afghanistan, toppled the Taliban and tried to foster democracy in the war-torn country. But remnants of the extremist group have been fighting the government ever since, and the Taliban now controls about half the country again.

President Donald Trump told Cabinet members the Islamic State and Taliban should fight each other instead of having the U.S. involved.

More than 2,400 American soldiers have been killed in the war, according to the most recent figures from the Pentagon. There are currently about 22,000 coalition troops in Afghanistan now, 14,000 of them Americans.

Trump's hope for a speedy withdrawal of U.S. forces has drawn opposition from within his own administration, including military leaders who want a more phased approach. Critics fear a premature withdrawal would encourage the Taliban to re-take control of the country.

Contributing: David Jackson, Deirdre Shesgreen and John Fritze

[icansayit]

No problem. I know two swings and you're done and resort to...well nothing.

Have a good night.



How sad it must be to be you.

[LongTermGuy]

They accuse Trump of not being qualified for anything. So, when he tries...they accuse him again of Bowing Down to the enemy.

When the meeting is canceled...they do the opposite...same thing in reverse. Still say he had no right to plan such a meeting....Secretly....as if he wanted to Hide it from WE THE PEOPLE.

It's called "BEING STUCK BETWEEN A ROCK, AND A HARD PLACE" or "DAMNED IF YOU DO, DAMNED IF YOU DON'T"

A better word for all of the arranged HATRED for the President is...."HYPOCRISY".

Thats how it is...agree...American people know and understand this already....Ignore the Leftists and "wish Hillary would of won" Trump haters...it is what it is...They will always be yelling at the sky....and remain full of shit...

[Kathianne]

How sad it must be to be you.

Again, when faced with facts, you got nothing. It's ok, you must be liberal, it's all 'I wuv Mr. Trump! He gives me tingles. Those that don't feel that, well they are just so sad.'

Glad for your sobriety, you shouldn't be looking up to antisemites though.

[STTAB]

How sad it must be to be you.


Kath is one of the more intelligent posters on this board. Rational in her posts, well most of them LOL, erudite in her responses, inquisitive when she isn't knowledgeable on a subject. I've had plenty of disagreements with her , but she is absolutely positively a net gain for this board, which is far more than could be said for quite a few members.

On the topic of negotiating with the Taliban she's 100% factual, Trump was against it before he was for it. And what's more, this is NOTHING like the Cold War, where maybe you aren't aware but the USA and USSR both went to great pains to prevent killing anyone. These motherfuckers are out killing Americans and bragging about it on social media as we are announcing that we are trying to negotiate a peace with them. Nah brah, you don't negotiate a peace treaty with an enemy as they are still killing your people.

I was for getting us out of Afghanistan until this latest stunt by the Taliban, now I'm pro surge and wipe them the fuck out.

[Kathianne]

Kath is one of the more intelligent posters on this board. Rational in her posts, well most of them LOL, erudite in her responses, inquisitive when she isn't knowledgeable on a subject. I've had plenty of disagreements with her , but she is absolutely positively a net gain for this board, which is far more than could be said for quite a few members.

On the topic of negotiating with the Taliban she's 100% factual, Trump was against it before he was for it. And what's more, this is NOTHING like the Cold War, where maybe you aren't aware but the USA and USSR both went to great pains to prevent killing anyone. These motherfuckers are out killing Americans and bragging about it on social media as we are announcing that we are trying to negotiate a peace with them. Nah brah, you don't negotiate a peace treaty with an enemy as they are still killing your people.

I was for getting us out of Afghanistan until this latest stunt by the Taliban, now I'm pro surge and wipe them the fuck out.

Wow! Now if you'd just changed your mind because of my powers of persuasion, we'd be so much better off! LOL!

I'm always for not getting involved with other countries regarding war, but once in, let's get it done. I truly thought that was clear in the aftermath of 9/11. Unfortunately those who won't learn from Korea, Vietnam, forays in the countries south of us, so we have this.

I actually agree that we can't 'Win' Afghanistan, but what was proposed regarding making a 'deal' with the Taliban would have been a loss ala Vietnam or what Obama pulled in Iraq/Syria.

Going to have to work with the official government, get some good human intelligence set up for the long haul, working with allies in the area. Keep ISIS/Taliban on the radar, hitting them when necessary. We don't strategically arm the official government either, that would be setting up a new Sadam. Nope, let that government deal with the day-to-day, we'll hit from the air when the really bad guys need to be thinned.

I'm not a strategist, but the generals and CIA can work with this.

[STTAB]

We have been there too long. Those people do not want to settle down and act civilized.

A lot of American and allied blood has been spilled trying to mold that county into
a non-heathen waste land.

Time to pull out with all of our gear.

In my response please show me where I posted anything about "civilizing" anyone? And don't dare to lecture me about American blood. I have a son over there right now.

Last week I wanted all our people out of Afghanistan, but the Taliban's recent actions have changed my mind. We need to up the ante and wipe them the fuck out. I don't care about winning hearts and minds. I care about killing those wish to kill Americans.

[Kathianne]

In my response please show me where I posted anything about "civilizing" anyone? And don't dare to lecture me about American blood. I have a son over there right now.

Last week I wanted all our people out of Afghanistan, but the Taliban's recent actions have changed my mind. We need to up the ante and wipe them the fuck out. I don't care about winning hearts and minds. I care about killing those wish to kill Americans.

Since the 'negotiations' started with the Taliban, especially after they successfully cut out the official government being involved, they've stepped up the killing of both innocents and our military. It didn't START last week, they just were emboldened to the point of shouting it to the press. That was something the US government could not ignore. Otherwise we'd have had the signed 'agreement' yesterday.

Still think we're so 'desperate' to WIN we'll do the agreement, but I bet it won't be at Camp David.

[STTAB]

Wow! Now if you'd just changed your mind because of my powers of persuasion, we'd be so much better off! LOL!

I'm always for not getting involved with other countries regarding war, but once in, let's get it done. I truly thought that was clear in the aftermath of 9/11. Unfortunately those who won't learn from Korea, Vietnam, forays in the countries south of us, so we have this.

I actually agree that we can't 'Win' Afghanistan, but what was proposed regarding making a 'deal' with the Taliban would have been a loss ala Vietnam or what Obama pulled in Iraq/Syria.

Going to have to work with the official government, get some good human intelligence set up for the long haul, working with allies in the area. Keep ISIS/Taliban on the radar, hitting them when necessary. We don't strategically arm the official government either, that would be setting up a new Sadam. Nope, let that government deal with the day-to-day, we'll hit from the air when the really bad guys need to be thinned.

I'm not a strategist, but the generals and CIA can work with this.


Turns out , taking out Sadam was a major tactical error. He ruled Iraq with an iron fist, ISIS didn't flourish under his regime, I'll tell you that.

Here's a cold hard truth about our military. We haven't "won" a real war since WWII. Sure we beat the shit out of Grenada, we rolled over Iraq in Desert Storm, but tactically and strategically we have been beaten in every war since WWII that we have involved ourselves in because we elect Presidents who have not served. I'm not saying that only those who have served are qualified to be President, but it's a major factor when you are actually involved in war. Our last two Presidents, Obama and now Trump have BOTH for some reason believed and continue to believe that they know more about war than the professionals . Chalk that up to ego or whatever, but it is true.

Couple that with bleeding heart Americans who cry about our enemy being tortured via water boarding and sleep deprivation, let alone collateral damaged caused by these motherfuckers taking shots at us while hiding behind old people and women and you have a llttle pissant group like the fucking Taliban chasing off the greatest military the world has ever seen.

You think that if in 2001 a Douglas MacArthur were told "do what you need to do , defeat the Taliban in Afghanistan" that we would still be in this war 18 fucking years later?

Long story short, once again it boils down to Americans being stupid and our enemy realizing "all we have to do is outlast the enemy" that's why as late as last week I wanted us out of Afghanistan, because I have known all along the US public isn't going to allow our military to ever win this war.

[Gunny]

I happen to think you (kathianne and Staab) are both correct. Right up to the solution. I don't see a "win". I see the Paris Peace Accords Part Deux. The US bargaining an exit with the enemy without input from the ally that stands to lose. It's so awesome to be our "ally". The US is the WORST fair weather friend as a Nation in the World.

Trump is in a lose/lose position and once again I have to wonder why he put himself there.

I don't like leaving the "ally" to suffer at the hands of all the Taliban promises we know will be broken the second we leave. At the same time, I agree that the "ally" doesn't care who wins so long as their poppy crop is left alone. At the ground level, why should they care who claims to be in charge? Anyone claiming to be in charge of Afghanistan is a fool.

Burn the place to the ground, border to border, THEN you get to be in charge.

As far as the "don't blaspheme Fearless Leader" goes, Trump has NOT impressed me with his foreign policy where our military is engaged one bit. That's my personal and professional opinion and I don't see the call for slinging insults for those with similar or like opinions. If the "ubiquitous you" disagree, feel free to state such and why without ruining a thread and/or insulting everyone. That would be most appreciated.

[Kathianne]

I happen to think you (kathianne and Staab) are both correct. Right up to the solution. I don't see a "win". I see the Paris Peace Accords Part Deux. The US bargaining an exit with the enemy without input from the ally that stands to lose. It's so awesome to be our "ally". The US is the WORST fair weather friend as a Nation in the World.

Trump is in a lose/lose position and once again I have to wonder why he put himself there.

I don't like leaving the "ally" to suffer at the hands of all the Taliban promises we know will be broken the second we leave. At the same time, I agree that the "ally" doesn't care who wins so long as their poppy crop is left alone. At the ground level, why should they care who claims to be in charge? Anyone claiming to be in charge of Afghanistan is a fool.

Burn the place to the ground, border to border, THEN you get to be in charge.

As far as the "don't blaspheme Fearless Leader" goes, Trump has NOT impressed me with his foreign policy where our military is engaged one bit. That's my personal and professional opinion and I don't see the call for slinging insults for those with similar or like opinions. If the "ubiquitous you" disagree, feel free to state such and why without ruining a thread and/or insulting everyone. That would be most appreciated.


You may have noticed that the 'slinging of insults' came from those who keep running into someone's backside.

[STTAB]

Since the 'negotiations' started with the Taliban, especially after they successfully cut out the official government being involved, they've stepped up the killing of both innocents and our military. It didn't START last week, they just were emboldened to the point of shouting it to the press. That was something the US government could not ignore. Otherwise we'd have had the signed 'agreement' yesterday.

Still think we're so 'desperate' to WIN we'll do the agreement, but I bet it won't be at Camp David.

I mean on the one hand, look at how much this war has cost us with really nothing to show for it, but on the other hand the military man in me says we can't let the Taliban get away with this.

As Gunny has said it's a lose lose for Trump, but it's largely of his own making.

I'm sick of war, but just as I was sick of Obama using the war as a political pawn, I'm sick of Trump doing the same. He will make this deal, not because it's a good deal but because he can say going into the election "hey I got us out of Afghanistan" and frankly I'm sick of that kind of politician. I thought Trump was supposed to be different (that's a question to all the Trump boot lickers on here, not you Kath)

Different would be Trump having the courage to say "I miscalculated here, we can't deal with the Taliban PERIOD" that's a guy I could respect. I still support Trump overall, but that support is waning every day.

[Gunny]

You may have noticed that the 'slinging of insults' came from those who keep running into someone's backside.I didn't say any names. What I WILL say is this -- school is in session and right along with it "Paw-paw's Daycare". I don't get to post whenever I feel like it and when I do get a chance, walking into a perfectly good topic that's erupted into a pissing contest makes me want to just log back out. When the munchkin gets up I have to drop everything else.

To see it be the usual "Trump can do no wrong" argument makes me want to drop the laptop on the floor after logging out. We all pretty-much know where we all stand on here when it comes to the President. The nastiness about it is not required.

I will say the same the thing I have since this first became an issue. Those avid Trump supporters who will accept no alternative opinions, varying as they do, only do themselves, and the effort to get Trump reelected, a disservice by further alienating those who are on the fence about him or still open-minded enough to consider him as an alternative to the Fascist Party of America.

The topic is Afghanistan. I see Afghanistan as a mirror-image of Vietnam as far as what is being suggested by the President at the moment. While I don't agree with leaving anyone high and dry, STAAB makes a good point where fighting for those who won't fight for themselves as concerned. The peasants don't care who is in charge. They just know that if the VC aren't stealing their rice, the US will come along and blow the whole paddy up. They don't understand democracy. Their world is tribal, has been since forever, and it's not going to change.

I also don't care much for the positive comments aimed at Pakistan as some kind of "ally" when they're about as much help as Laos and Cambodia were. We aren'ta llowed to pursue the enemy there.

Nothing short of turning that place into a parking lot is going to change it.

[STTAB]

I didn't say any names. What I WILL say is this -- school is in session and right along with it "Paw-paw's Daycare". I don't get to post whenever I feel like it and when I do get a chance, walking into a perfectly good topic that's erupted into a pissing contest makes me want to just log back out. When the munchkin gets up I have to drop everything else.

To see it be the usual "Trump can do no wrong" argument makes me want to drop the laptop on the floor after logging out. We all pretty-much know where we all stand on here when it comes to the President. The nastiness about it is not required.

I will say the same the thing I have since this first became an issue. Those avid Trump supporters who will accept no alternative opinions, varying as they do, only do themselves, and the effort to get Trump reelected, a disservice by further alienating those who are on the fence about him or still open-minded enough to consider him as an alternative to the Fascist Party of America.

The topic is Afghanistan. I see Afghanistan as a mirror-image of Vietnam as far as what is being suggested by the President at the moment. While I don't agree with leaving anyone high and dry, STAAB makes a good point where fighting for those who won't fight for themselves as concerned. The peasants don't care who is in charge. They just know that if the VC aren't stealing their rice, the US will come along and blow the whole paddy up. They don't understand democracy. Their world is tribal, has been since forever, and it's not going to change.

I also don't care much for the positive comments aimed at Pakistan as some kind of "ally" when they're about as much help as Laos and Cambodia were. We aren'ta llowed to pursue the enemy there.

Nothing short of turning that place into a parking lot is going to change it.


Yup on Pakistan, they rank just barely behind Turkey when it comes to being a reliable ally.

Not that we have any room to talk.

But this is the point I tried to bring up to Kath last week. How many people and how many TRILfIONS of dollars do we lose trying to turn Afghanistan into what we think they should be but which they themselves do not understand?

As far as that goes, those 12 Americans wouldn't have died in Afghanistan if they hadn't been in Afghanistan to begin with. That's a fact.

What we REALLY need to do is drop a MOAB on the Pakistan side where the Taliban is really hiding anyway. I mean we all know exactly where they are, the same fucking country where Osama Bin Laden was hiding . See, yet another mistake made by the US military due to weak leadership and even weaker voters. Pakistan should have paid a price, a VERY heavy price for allowing Bin Laden to be in their country, and please someone do try to convince me that the Paki government had no idea Bin Laden was in Pakistan. For fuck's sakes, we KNEW that Pakistan knew, that's why we went into Pakistan covertly, because we knew that telling Pakistan was the same as telling Bin Laden.

The "punishment" could have been something like I don't know, taking out the base that was right next to the house he was living in with cruise missiles or something?

Is there anything more disgusting than countries which pretend to be our allies?

[Gunny]

Yup on Pakistan, they rank just barely behind Turkey when it comes to being a reliable ally.

Not that we have any room to talk.

But this is the point I tried to bring up to Kath last week. How many people and how many TRILfIONS of dollars do we lose trying to turn Afghanistan into what we think they should be but which they themselves do not understand?

As far as that goes, those 12 Americans wouldn't have died in Afghanistan if they hadn't been in Afghanistan to begin with. That's a fact.

What we REALLY need to do is drop a MOAB on the Pakistan side where the Taliban is really hiding anyway. I mean we all know exactly where they are, the same fucking country where Osama Bin Laden was hiding . See, yet another mistake made by the US military due to weak leadership and even weaker voters. Pakistan should have paid a price, a VERY heavy price for allowing Bin Laden to be in their country, and please someone do try to convince me that the Paki government had no idea Bin Laden was in Pakistan. For fuck's sakes, we KNEW that Pakistan knew, that's why we went into Pakistan covertly, because we knew that telling Pakistan was the same as telling Bin Laden.

The "punishment" could have been something like I don't know, taking out the base that was right next to the house he was living in with cruise missiles or something?

Is there anything more disgusting than countries which pretend to be our allies?I get the feeling, and have had it, that Trump doesn't not know how to use the military. Overall big picture. He's shuffling his feet in Syria/Iraq, and now Afghanistan. And it's not really a knock on him before anyone has a heart attack. He's a businessman. He appears to be doing pretty well in his trade wars. Better than I expected.

So I have to question why, when he has loose ends from one end of this Nation to the other being tied up in Dem-owned courts, he would take this on. Maybe he sees "Trump Ends Afghan War" as a feather in his hat. Not seeing that won't work because no way the US walks out of there a winner. The MSM/left is going to be all up his ass about not finishing what we started and we won't hear the end of it.

There is no winning a war in Afghanistan and never has been. I say exterminate the Taliban THEN leave. THAT was the mission. But suck them back into Afghanistan then quietly flank them where they can't run back aross the Pakistan border. Then you have to ask how much is that one, lonely airstrip we have in Pakistan worth? It IS worth a lot strategically. Worth an 18 year war? Maybe not so much.

Speaking of, just to prove how brilliant they are, the Taliban decides a show of force at the bargaining table by murdering a dozen people :rolleyes: You just can't make this shit up.

Our reason for being there dies with bin Laden (even if that reasoning is as short-sighted and shallow as it gets). IF we aren't going to do anything but prop up a government that is probably making a fortune in the opium market under our protection, we should leave.

But there is no honor in it. Should have thought about that before we bitch-slapped the first obvious bunch of assholes after 9/11.

[Kathianne]

I didn't say any names. What I WILL say is this -- school is in session and right along with it "Paw-paw's Daycare". I don't get to post whenever I feel like it and when I do get a chance, walking into a perfectly good topic that's erupted into a pissing contest makes me want to just log back out. When the munchkin gets up I have to drop everything else.

To see it be the usual "Trump can do no wrong" argument makes me want to drop the laptop on the floor after logging out. We all pretty-much know where we all stand on here when it comes to the President. The nastiness about it is not required.

I will say the same the thing I have since this first became an issue. Those avid Trump supporters who will accept no alternative opinions, varying as they do, only do themselves, and the effort to get Trump reelected, a disservice by further alienating those who are on the fence about him or still open-minded enough to consider him as an alternative to the Fascist Party of America.

The topic is Afghanistan. I see Afghanistan as a mirror-image of Vietnam as far as what is being suggested by the President at the moment. While I don't agree with leaving anyone high and dry, STAAB makes a good point where fighting for those who won't fight for themselves as concerned. The peasants don't care who is in charge. They just know that if the VC aren't stealing their rice, the US will come along and blow the whole paddy up. They don't understand democracy. Their world is tribal, has been since forever, and it's not going to change.

I also don't care much for the positive comments aimed at Pakistan as some kind of "ally" when they're about as much help as Laos and Cambodia were. We aren'ta llowed to pursue the enemy there.

Nothing short of turning that place into a parking lot is going to change it.

The only mention of Trump tingles were deserved. If I'm hit with 'CNN' shit and someone that just goes "Yup, yup, yup! You be bad, no likey Trump!" Yes, I'll hit back for their stupidity and their antisemitism. It's deserved.

Your schedule isn't under my control, so threads develop as their wont.

Pretty certain I didn't mention Pakistan, so not sure about that one.

[STTAB]

The only mention of Trump tingles were deserved. If I'm hit with 'CNN' shit and someone that just goes "Yup, yup, yup! You be bad, no likey Trump!" Yes, I'll hit back for their stupidity and their antisemitism. It's deserved.

Your schedule isn't under my control, so threads develop as their wont.

Pretty certain I didn't mention Pakistan, so not sure about that one.

As I read it Gunny wasn't "attacking" you , he was bitching about a few others. I won't name names.

[STTAB]

I get the feeling, and have had it, that Trump doesn't not know how to use the military. Overall big picture. He's shuffling his feet in Syria/Iraq, and now Afghanistan. And it's not really a knock on him before anyone has a heart attack. He's a businessman. He appears to be doing pretty well in his trade wars. Better than I expected.

So I have to question why, when he has loose ends from one end of this Nation to the other being tied up in Dem-owned courts, he would take this on. Maybe he sees "Trump Ends Afghan War" as a feather in his hat. Not seeing that won't work because no way the US walks out of there a winner. The MSM/left is going to be all up his ass about not finishing what we started and we won't hear the end of it.

There is no winning a war in Afghanistan and never has been. I say exterminate the Taliban THEN leave. THAT was the mission. But suck them back into Afghanistan then quietly flank them where they can't run back aross the Pakistan border. Then you have to ask how much is that one, lonely airstrip we have in Pakistan worth? It IS worth a lot strategically. Worth an 18 year war? Maybe not so much.

Speaking of, just to prove how brilliant they are, the Taliban decides a show of force at the bargaining table by murdering a dozen people :rolleyes: You just can't make this shit up.

Our reason for being there dies with bin Laden (even if that reasoning is as short-sighted and shallow as it gets). IF we aren't going to do anything but prop up a government that is probably making a fortune in the opium market under our protection, we should leave.

But there is no honor in it. Should have thought about that before we bitch-slapped the first obvious bunch of assholes after 9/11.


On the one hand, I appreciate that Trump is trying to do as much as he can for the American people, I truly believe he is. On the other, I think he's overestimated what effect he can have on the overly bloated US government and is trying to take on too many things at any given time. China, North Korea, Palestine, ISIS, domestic issues, blah blah blah.

The rest of the government simply can't move fast enough to keep up with him.

Being sued over every fucking EO he issues and harrassed daily by the Democrats in the House all the while fighting off a hostile media isn't helping either.

So, absolutely some of this is self inflicted, but not all of it. I'll tell you , in many ways he's handled it better than I would have. For example the other dasy another court ruled that the Secret Service can't refuse to let a CNN reporter who was being disrupitive back into the WH.... I would have told that Court to go pound sand and banned the entire network from the WH and refused to acknowledge that court's authority.

Of course I would have not been in that situation anyway because 18 months ago, at least , I would have simply froze CNN out. Sure you can attend briefings, but no one is going to call on you or answer any questions from your network, and anyone who does or grants your network any interviews or even gives you so much as a "no comment" will be fired. You're welcome to come to the briefings though, you bet.

Of course I also would have already ordered that Adam Schiff not be given access to classified information, but that's just me.

[STTAB]

My God the sheer stupidity of so many Americans is almost too much to bare. Kath I don't know how you can not agree that we need a purge LOL

Over on another board right now, there are at least 50 posters screaming about "Trump wanted to ban Muslim women and children from coming into the US but let Taliban leaders in" as if the two issues are in any way related.

Are they smart enough to understand that even if we did allow those people to come to the US to negotiate that we know EXACTLY who they are and will be hands on with them the entire time they are here and when the meetijngs are done they will be LEAVING this country, which is completely unrelated to allowing unverified immigrants in from certain countries and then having no control over them once they come here with no firm date on when if ever that they will be leaving?

Or do they know that and are just liars?

[Kathianne]

My God the sheer stupidity of so many Americans is almost too much to bare. Kath I don't know how you can not agree that we need a purge LOL

Over on another board right now, there are at least 50 posters screaming about "Trump wanted to ban Muslim women and children from coming into the US but let Taliban leaders in" as if the two issues are in any way related.

Are they smart enough to understand that even if we did allow those people to come to the US to negotiate that we know EXACTLY who they are and will be hands on with them the entire time they are here and when the meetijngs are done they will be LEAVING this country, which is completely unrelated to allowing unverified immigrants in from certain countries and then having no control over them once they come here with no firm date on when if ever that they will be leaving?

Or do they know that and are just liars?
Some has to be Trump can do no right.

Then there are those who thought his dealings with the Taliban was a sign of seriousness or brilliance or something.

[STTAB]

I happen to think you (kathianne and Staab) are both correct. Right up to the solution. I don't see a "win". I see the Paris Peace Accords Part Deux. The US bargaining an exit with the enemy without input from the ally that stands to lose. It's so awesome to be our "ally". The US is the WORST fair weather friend as a Nation in the World.

Trump is in a lose/lose position and once again I have to wonder why he put himself there.

I don't like leaving the "ally" to suffer at the hands of all the Taliban promises we know will be broken the second we leave. At the same time, I agree that the "ally" doesn't care who wins so long as their poppy crop is left alone. At the ground level, why should they care who claims to be in charge? Anyone claiming to be in charge of Afghanistan is a fool.

Burn the place to the ground, border to border, THEN you get to be in charge.

As far as the "don't blaspheme Fearless Leader" goes, Trump has NOT impressed me with his foreign policy where our military is engaged one bit. That's my personal and professional opinion and I don't see the call for slinging insults for those with similar or like opinions. If the "ubiquitous you" disagree, feel free to state such and why without ruining a thread and/or insulting everyone. That would be most appreciated.


Also, for the record, STTAB is always right. Well, I was wrong once. I thought I had made a mistake, but it actually turned out that I was correct, so my mistake was thinking I had made a mistake.

[Kathianne]

Just listened to the president. The Taliban are so very upset, they knew they did wrong. He has cancelled the meeting with some very bad people, but will keep working on it. Not changing the timing of bringing troops home.

Just what I said.

[STTAB]

Just listened to the president. The Taliban are so very upset, they knew they did wrong. He has cancelled the meeting with some very bad people, but will keep working on it. Not changing the timing of bringing troops home.

Just what I said.


I wouldn't be surprised to learn the CIA is behind this. US Army is getting too close to figuring out who really controls the poppy fields, so time for themt o go home.

[pete311]

A deal was close, but Trump wanted the credit, so he wanted them for a secret meeting in the US. Of course we weren't ready, the meeting leaked, the Taliban leaders got spooked and Trump used a scapegoat to get out of it. They've been bombing shit for years.

[Kathianne]

A deal was close, but Trump wanted the credit, so he wanted them for a secret meeting in the US. Of course we weren't ready, the meeting leaked, the Taliban leaders got spooked and Trump used a scapegoat to get out of it. They've been bombing shit for years.
I think you're wrong on this. The Taliban has been stepping up their attacks for about a month. Purposefully showing what's going to happen when US is gone.

The whole Camp David things was the worst of the worse. Taliban at Camp David, 3 days before 9/11? Anytime really, just stupid.

[pete311]

I think you're wrong on this. The Taliban has been stepping up their attacks for about a month. Purposefully showing what's going to happen when US is gone.

The whole Camp David things was the worst of the worse. Taliban at Camp David, 3 days before 9/11? Anytime really, just stupid.

Stepping up yes, but they haven't stopped attacking, so why were recent attacks the cause of the negotiations to fail. Of course we know the answer.

[Kathianne]

Stepping up yes, but they haven't stopped attacking, so why were recent attacks the cause of the negotiations to fail. Of course we know the answer.
First the stepping up. The bridge too far? Admitting they were doing it to force the great satan to be weakened. Pretty well works if we withdraw with their resuming where they were 9/10/01.

[Gunny]

The only mention of Trump tingles were deserved. If I'm hit with 'CNN' shit and someone that just goes "Yup, yup, yup! You be bad, no likey Trump!" Yes, I'll hit back for their stupidity and their antisemitism. It's deserved.

Your schedule isn't under my control, so threads develop as their wont.

Pretty certain I didn't mention Pakistan, so not sure about that one.


As I read it Gunny wasn't "attacking" you , he was bitching about a few others. I won't name names.I didn't see the point to the nastiness in some of the responses to your opinion Kathianne, just to clarify. I don't recall the opinion you expressed nor whether or not I agreed with it, just that I thought the response was a bit over the top.

[Gunny]

My God the sheer stupidity of so many Americans is almost too much to bare. Kath I don't know how you can not agree that we need a purge LOL

Over on another board right now, there are at least 50 posters screaming about "Trump wanted to ban Muslim women and children from coming into the US but let Taliban leaders in" as if the two issues are in any way related.

Are they smart enough to understand that even if we did allow those people to come to the US to negotiate that we know EXACTLY who they are and will be hands on with them the entire time they are here and when the meetijngs are done they will be LEAVING this country, which is completely unrelated to allowing unverified immigrants in from certain countries and then having no control over them once they come here with no firm date on when if ever that they will be leaving?

Or do they know that and are just liars?You answered your last question in your first sentence: No, they are too stupid to know they are liars. Actually lying to people is above and beyond the skill set of most of those people. They're still trying to get drooling down :)

[Gunny]

I think you're wrong on this. The Taliban has been stepping up their attacks for about a month. Purposefully showing what's going to happen when US is gone.

The whole Camp David things was the worst of the worse. Taliban at Camp David, 3 days before 9/11? Anytime really, just stupid.I'd have to agree on the timing. Not the brightest idea.

However, and I got side tracked previously, I don't see the importance you keep placing on Camp David. The importance of the place as where President Carter facilitated a peace agreement between Egypt and Israel is noted. I see no other reason to accord it any special consideration as the some "place of honor".

Was it me I'd invite them over and arrest them the second they stepped off the plane. I'm an asshole with a long memory like that :)

[Gunny]

Stepping up yes, but they haven't stopped attacking, so why were recent attacks the cause of the negotiations to fail. Of course we know the answer.Let's see ... attacks prior to attempted negotiations vs attacks subsequent to negotiations. That one's pretty easy.

[Kathianne]

I didn't see the point to the nastiness in some of the responses to your opinion @Kathianne (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=8), just to clarify. I don't recall the opinion you expressed nor whether or not I agreed with it, just that I thought the response was a bit over the top.

Thanks Gunny. I thought you were perturbed with moi. I have gotten defensive to those who don't deserve it.

Some folks have gotten creepy since they 'won', others just came here creepy. The really creepy are both antisemitic and overall nasty.

[Kathianne]

I'd have to agree on the timing. Not the brightest idea.

However, and I got side tracked previously, I don't see the importance you keep placing on Camp David. The importance of the place as where President Carter facilitated a peace agreement between Egypt and Israel is noted. I see no other reason to accord it any special consideration as the some "place of honor".

Was it me I'd invite them over and arrest them the second they stepped off the plane. I'm an asshole with a long memory like that :)

This was like when someone brought up Gorbachev. Apples and oranges. Not saying any of the two you mention, nor Gorbachev were saints, far from it. All though at the time of the invite were bravely bucking their systems, trying to save lives and improve their countries.

The Taliban? I don't think so. They are out to destroy the Great Satan. Now and back and in the futures.

[Kathianne]

I'd have to agree on the timing. Not the brightest idea.

However, and I got side tracked previously, I don't see the importance you keep placing on Camp David. The importance of the place as where President Carter facilitated a peace agreement between Egypt and Israel is noted. I see no other reason to accord it any special consideration as the some "place of honor".

Was it me I'd invite them over and arrest them the second they stepped off the plane. I'm an asshole with a long memory like that :) Just shoot them.

[Gunny]

Just shoot them.I'm all for it. Have been. However, there are people conceivably in Afghanistan who weren't born yet on 9/11. I was sitting in my truck on a jobsite eating carne guisada breakfast tacos when they interrupted the tunes to announce we had been attacked. I was for killing them all then and am for doing so now.

I just don't see the "doing so" part happening. In which case, I have an issue with US service personnel being fed into a bottomless pit. There's no clear, achievable objective anymore. We took the Taliban out as punishment for not handing over bin Laden. Despite Pakistan running interference and our puppet Afghan government not giving a damn we tracked down and killed him.

We do not possess the National will to finish the job the way it should be done. Even if we did, it'd go like Brexit is going for the Brits - the will of the people be damned as far as politics goes.

IMO, after this latest little Taliban attack, Trump should have pulled a Nixon and just bombed the living Hell out of them to remind them just who's driving the train.

Also IMO, I wouldn't bother with any peace deal with the bastards. They aren't going to honor any one word of one. I'd just pull out with the reminder that we found the place the first time and can do so again.

[Kathianne]

I'm all for it. Have been. However, there are people conceivably in Afghanistan who weren't born yet on 9/11. I was sitting in my truck on a jobsite eating carne guisada breakfast tacos when they interrupted the tunes to announce we had been attacked. I was for killing them all then and am for doing so now.

I just don't see the "doing so" part happening. In which case, I have an issue with US service personnel being fed into a bottomless pit. There's no clear, achievable objective anymore. We took the Taliban out as punishment for not handing over bin Laden. Despite Pakistan running interference and our puppet Afghan government not giving a damn we tracked down and killed him.

We do not possess the National will to finish the job the way it should be done. Even if we did, it'd go like Brexit is going for the Brits - the will of the people be damned as far as politics goes.

IMO, after this latest little Taliban attack, Trump should have pulled a Nixon and just bombed the living Hell out of them to remind them just who's driving the train.

Also IMO, I wouldn't bother with any peace deal with the bastards. They aren't going to honor any one word of one. I'd just pull out with the reminder that we found the place the first time and can do so again.


Pretty much I think we took on Afghanistan for harboring al Queda, before and after 9/11. For the Taliban protecting the terrorists.

When I said, 'shoot them,' I was referring to any that deplaned in the US to 'negotiate.' They will kill us all, given a chance now or then.

While I'm not an advocate of indiscriminate killing of civilians, I've always said that if the enemy is hiding within the population, send leaflets then exterminate. Then get out.

[Gunny]

Pretty much I think we took on Afghanistan for harboring al Queda, before and after 9/11. For the Taliban protecting the terrorists.

When I said, 'shoot them,' I was referring to any that deplaned in the US to 'negotiate.' They will kill us all, given a chance now or then.

While I'm not an advocate of indiscriminate killing of civilians, I've always said that if the enemy is hiding within the population, send leaflets then exterminate. Then get out.I have ZERO issue with killing terrorists. I don't care what they call themselves and/or how much makeup you slap on THAT pig.

I Do think if I am the President of the US, I am not negotiating with criminals for any reason. We entrap criminals all the time here in the US and justify it by the end result. Good enough reasoning for foreign murderers.

They're going to go on a murder spree the second we stand down/leave. Something else to be considered. Look at the BS Edogan pulled in Syria. He just labeled all Kurds he could see "terrorists" and started killing them once we backed off.

We, as a society and Nation have forgotten how to win.

[Kathianne]

I have ZERO issue with killing terrorists. I don't care what they call themselves and/or how much makeup you slap on THAT pig.

I Do think if I am the President of the US, I am not negotiating with criminals for any reason. We entrap criminals all the time here in the US and justify it by the end result. Good enough reasoning for foreign murderers.

They're going to go on a murder spree the second we stand down/leave. Something else to be considered. Look at the BS Edogan pulled in Syria. He just labeled all Kurds he could see "terrorists" and started killing them once we backed off.

We, as a society and Nation have forgotten how to win.

I think we're saying the same thing. Pretty sure you remember my feelings about the Kurds, a group we truly screwed over. Why doesn't the US ever back those that 'might' be good people?

[Elessar]

Stepping up yes, but they haven't stopped attacking, so why were recent attacks the cause of the negotiations to fail. Of course we know the answer.

But just exactly who is the WE?

You and that mouse in your pocket?

[Kathianne]

But just exactly who is the WE?

You and that mouse in your pocket?

When the President speaks, when the military acts, it IS the people of the United States. Every bit as much as every embassy, ship, etc. are pieces of this country.

[Gunny]

I think we're saying the same thing. Pretty sure you remember my feelings about the Kurds, a group we truly screwed over. Why doesn't the US ever back those that 'might' be good people?It isn't that we just "don't back them". It's that we screw them over. Iraq 91 -- assurances to the shia and sunni we would support a coup. Left them high and dry so when they finally did take over after we carried out 2 wars on their country, we're hardly on the "friends" list.

Same with the kurds. We protected them from Saddam and used them at whatever capability level they were worth -- mostly intel -- and we protected them from the Turks and their genocidal notions. We used them against ISIS but now we are leaving their fate up to Erdogan? Bet we got a lot of friends left there.

I'd say the only "real" "allies" we have are those that have no choice. It's take a chance on us or nothing. In a sense, you can't really blame some of the people that hate us. We moved into Iran and propped up its puppet in exchange for cut-rate oil. Bailed on Nam and pretty much N Korea back when it could have been saved and a unified Korea established. Then there was Noriega who was our friend before we killed him.

Sure, we won the Gulf War. They appealed to our "sensibilities". We got paid in gold and cut-rate oil to kick Saddam's ass out of Kuwait. And we'd been Saddam's benefactor during the Iran-Iraq War. No honor among thieves.

While still insulting, it's hard to blame those that want nothing to do with us.

[STTAB]

It isn't that we just "don't back them". It's that we screw them over. Iraq 91 -- assurances to the shia and sunni we would support a coup. Left them high and dry so when they finally did take over after we carried out 2 wars on their country, we're hardly on the "friends" list.

Same with the kurds. We protected them from Saddam and used them at whatever capability level they were worth -- mostly intel -- and we protected them from the Turks and their genocidal notions. We used them against ISIS but now we are leaving their fate up to Erdogan? Bet we got a lot of friends left there.

I'd say the only "real" "allies" we have are those that have no choice. It's take a chance on us or nothing. In a sense, you can't really blame some of the people that hate us. We moved into Iran and propped up its puppet in exchange for cut-rate oil. Bailed on Nam and pretty much N Korea back when it could have been saved and a unified Korea established. Then there was Noriega who was our friend before we killed him.

Sure, we won the Gulf War. They appealed to our "sensibilities". We got paid in gold and cut-rate oil to kick Saddam's ass out of Kuwait. And we'd been Saddam's benefactor during the Iran-Iraq War. No honor among thieves.

While still insulting, it's hard to blame those that want nothing to do with us.

On the other hand , other countries do the same to us. How many countries have we provided arms to for them to fight off an enemy only to have them eventually use those weapons against us?

Of course we could solve that by not arming every rebel group that puts their hands out, but still.

[Gunny]

On the other hand , other countries do the same to us. How many countries have we provided arms to for them to fight off an enemy only to have them eventually use those weapons against us?

Of course we could solve that by not arming every rebel group that puts their hands out, but still.You are referring to anyone like S Vietnam that promises they are a democracy and against communism?

Or Saddam Hussein? He's killing Iranians and we hate them so start shipping that "dual-use" equipment :rolleyes:

Or supplying the USSR against Hitler?

Yeah. We excel at THAT.

[Elessar]

A-10s in Afghanistan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6Yh1HjG2rI

Iraq - Desert Storm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM2KbwPMU18

[STTAB]

You are referring to anyone like S Vietnam that promises they are a democracy and against communism?

Or Saddam Hussein? He's killing Iranians and we hate them so start shipping that "dual-use" equipment :rolleyes:

Or supplying the USSR against Hitler?

Yeah. We excel at THAT.

Once again proving what I have been saying for a long time. We are the DUMBEST country on Earth. People in Kenya who can barely read are "Ha look at those stupid Americans, they give money to people who openly say "we hate America" Stupid Americans"

[Kathianne]

Once again proving what I have been saying for a long time. We are the DUMBEST country on Earth. People in Kenya who can barely read are "Ha look at those stupid Americans, they give money to people who openly say "we hate America" Stupid Americans"

"Here, have some money and we'll negotiate, please don't hurt us! Yeah, we got bad stuff that could hurt you like nothing, nothing ever seen before. I won't do that, cause I don't want to hurt anyone."

[STTAB]

"Here, have some money and we'll negotiate, please don't hurt us! Yeah, we got bad stuff that could hurt you like nothing, nothing ever seen before. I won't do that, cause I don't want to hurt anyone."


Who has Trump given money to? The answer is no one. which makes me wonder, what the fuck is the government doing with all that money that Congress is like "here this money is for the country of ______________" and Trump is "nah brah , we good we aint giving them nothing?" LOL

[Kathianne]

Who has Trump given money to? The answer is no one. which makes me wonder, what the fuck is the government doing with all that money that Congress is like "here this money is for the country of ______________" and Trump is "nah brah , we good we aint giving them nothing?" LOL

He's building the wall?

[STTAB]

He's building the wall?

He is, but that's not coming out of money allocated as foreign aid. Where is all the foreign aid money that Trump just refused to give out ? That's a real question. Was the money ever there, and now the State Department is just sitting on it, or was it just another case of Congress allocated money , but didn't actually disperse it, or what? I've looked , but can't find the answer.

[Kathianne]

He is, but that's not coming out of money allocated as foreign aid. Where is all the foreign aid money that Trump just refused to give out ? That's a real question. Was the money ever there, and now the State Department is just sitting on it, or was it just another case of Congress allocated money , but didn't actually disperse it, or what? I've looked , but can't find the answer.

Funny, I really don't care about this. Give it, don't? Makes no difference. It's funny money anyways.

[STTAB]

Funny, I really don't care about this. Give it, don't? Makes no difference. It's funny money anyways.


You should care. A billion here, a billion there, and suddenly we're talking about real money.

I bet the government could cut 20% off their budget if they just absolutely insisted that every agency account for every single penny. And I know from experience that they do not.

[Kathianne]

You should care. A billion here, a billion there, and suddenly we're talking about real money.

I bet the government could cut 20% off their budget if they just absolutely insisted that every agency account for every single penny. And I know from experience that they do not.

I'll start caring when others do. No one is bitching about the money that's moved from one place to another. This is no different.

[STTAB]

I'll start caring when others do. No one is bitching about the money that's moved from one place to another. This is no different.

I'm bitching. I want to know. Did Congress actually give the State Department that money and so it's just sitting there where eventually it will be stolen or lost, or was this just another situation where Congress basically said "yeah we're gonna spend this money on this" but then actually never gave the agency any money?

Which actually brings me to another pet peeve. I hate the way Congress can play word games like that. Allocate the money and then never actually give it to the agency and be like "oh we allocated the money, not sure why it didn't get done" because people don't understand the word games Congress plays, but that's another topic entirely.

[Kathianne]

I'm bitching. I want to know. Did Congress actually give the State Department that money and so it's just sitting there where eventually it will be stolen or lost, or was this just another situation where Congress basically said "yeah we're gonna spend this money on this" but then actually never gave the agency any money?

Which actually brings me to another pet peeve. I hate the way Congress can play word games like that. Allocate the money and then never actually give it to the agency and be like "oh we allocated the money, not sure why it didn't get done" because people don't understand the word games Congress plays, but that's another topic entirely.

I used to care, if you want just search and you'll find. I can't be bothered. Few care about deficits. Everyone is for their own idea of best projects for a 'win.' It's the new game and not going to change. I think Trump will win, but if he doesn't, no more money diverted for wall and we know it won't go to back to the military. It will disappear to maybe planned parenthood or something else.

The deficits will mount and the only ones talking about it will be the party out of power. They don't care either, they just hope someone that does will vote for them the next time.

[Kathianne]

Not a ripple.


https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/12/budget-deficit-smashes-1-trillion-mark-the-highest-in-seven-years.html

[STTAB]

They don't care either, they just hope someone that does will vote for them the next time.

That's probably the truest statement ever posted on this board. The two major parties spend their entire time trying to convince stupid Americans that they care about things that they do not care about.

It's one thing, at least , that I absolutely do give Trump credit for. The things he's bitching about, he's been bitching about since the 1980s, What he cares about does not change with the political calculations, and thus he is genuine where people like Warren and Sanders and Biden and McConnell and well everyone really are fake as fuck.