Northern Ireland's Abortion Laws Are Even Worse Than Alabama's

[jimnyc]

Not a jab at you, Mr. Noir, as you can see this came up in American news just a 2 days ago. Why the comparison I don't know.
...

Ignorantly, I admit to posting the headline and the first few paragraphs before reading the entire article. I literally had no idea about the stances and laws in NI as to abortions. I had no idea at all about the laws there. Now of course I understand the comparisons and why. I briefly in my head recall this being mentioned before, and women having to travel.

I would still support abortions there in limited circumstances - and all my other stances of course too. It does sound kind of 'draconian' as they put it.

---

Northern Ireland's Abortion Laws Are Even Worse Than Alabama's

Alabama Gov. Kay Ivey (R) signed the United States’ strictest abortion regulations into law this week, sparking condemnation on both sides of the political aisle. The extreme measure forbids abortion in nearly all cases, including rape or incest, and makes it a felony for doctors to perform the procedure.

But amid the outrage directed at Alabama, activists across the Atlantic are pointing out that there’s a place where abortion regulations are even more draconian: Northern Ireland.

The United Kingdom gave doctors the authority to perform abortions in England, Wales and Scotland with the 1967 Abortion Act, which allowed abortion up to 24 weeks into a pregnancy as long as two doctors sign off on it. Abortions are also allowed in certain other cases where the woman’s health is threatened or where there is risk to the fetus. (Technically, abortion is still illegal under the U.K.’s Offences Against the Person Act of 1861, but the more recent law supersedes it.)

But those rules were not extended to Northern Ireland, which has some of the most restrictive abortion laws of any developed nation. Under no circumstances except to preserve the woman’s physical and mental health are abortions legal in Northern Ireland.

And while the Alabama law penalizes doctors who perform abortion, threatening them with up to 99 years or life behind bars, Northern Ireland penalizes both the doctors and the women who terminate their pregnancies. Both can face life in prison.

According to the Northern Ireland Department of Health, just 12 abortions were performed in the country in a year-long period measured between 2017 and 2018. That’s one fewer than in the period measured between 2016 and 2017. Most were performed on women over age 30.

Of course, that figure does not represent the number of Northern Ireland women who actually obtain abortions. Hundreds travel across the Irish Sea each year to England in order to safely terminate their pregnancies, or else flout the law by ordering abortion pills online.

However, as the BBC notes, Northern Ireland women are not entitled to the procedure in England for free, as English women are through the country’s National Health Service. In addition to the cost of travel, the women must pay for their abortions out of pocket. Women’s health advocates say this disproportionately hits the poorest women and families the hardest.

In 2015, a Belfast High Court ruled that Northern Ireland’s near-total ban on abortion violated the human rights of women and girls. But only lawmakers can enact a policy change. Pressure to do so has ramped up since Ireland repealed its own repressive abortion law last year with 66.4% support.

Changing the policy, however, could prove difficult. Northern Ireland is one of the most conservative regions of the U.K., although polling has found its residents largely favor reform.

The country’s policies have occasionally made headlines as women are prosecuted for obtaining illegal abortions there.

In 2014, a woman who didn’t have the money to travel for an abortion ordered pills online to terminate her pregnancy, but her housemates reported her to police. She was given a suspended sentence in 2016. A mother in Northern Ireland is currently facing charges for providing abortion pills for her then-15-year-old daughter in 2013. Police in Belfast raided a number of women’s homes to search for abortion pills in 2017, targeting them on International Women’s Day during demonstrations.

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/northern-ireland-abortion-alabama-175525853.html

[Noir]

Yep our abortion laws are almost certainly the worst in the ‘western world’ mostly thanks to Presbyterian Protestantism that dominates our political institutions.

[Drummond]

Yep our abortion laws are almost certainly the worst in the ‘western world’ mostly thanks to Presbyterian Protestantism that dominates our political institutions.

However, Noir, as you'll know probably better than I do, the moves made in recent years have been to do with liberalising N Ireland's abortion laws, whereas Alabama has gone in the opposite direction.

The DUP has, I believe, done much to try and stall what some would call 'reform', and of course Theresa May's much-needed alliance with the DUP must've magnified the DUP's ability to exercise their influence ... until fairly recently, anyway.

[Elessar]

Yep our abortion laws are almost certainly the worst in the ‘western world’ mostly thanks to Presbyterian Protestantism that dominates our political institutions.

Presbyterian? Care to elaborate? I am Presbyterian and do not understand your gay argument.

[Noir]

However, Noir, as you'll know probably better than I do, the moves made in recent years have been to do with liberalising N Ireland's abortion laws, whereas Alabama has gone in the opposite direction.

The DUP has, I believe, done much to try and stall what some would call 'reform', and of course Theresa May's much-needed alliance with the DUP must've magnified the DUP's ability to exercise their influence ... until fairly recently, anyway.

Yes, change is coming, much as the old guard are doing everything they can to try and resist. The silver lining is that some of the old guard are starting to get quite old indeed, and with that comes death, and with their death comes progress.


Presbyterian? Care to elaborate? I am Presbyterian and do not understand your gay argument.

I will happily elaborate, however, in light of your recent trend manor of posting to me I want to make clear that future posts that are littered with insults will not be responded to. You can have a conversation with me, or you can insult me, not both.

In short form Northern Ireland’s largest political party (and they have been the largest for decades) converge around a fundamentalist Presbyterian church, they are the kinds of people who believe dancing is a sin, the Pope is the Anti-Christ, dinosaurs are a hoax, homosexuality should be illegal, abortion is never an option etc. We’ve got past the dancing, and they’re reluctantly accepting that they’re not going to be able to jail homosexuals (though anything more liberal than that is unthinkable for many).

I would assume your Presbyterian church is not as hardline as the ones here, but of course that’s because your church has fallen into sin, or so they would say.

[Elessar]

Y

I would assume your Presbyterian church is not as hardline as the ones here, but of course that’s because your church has fallen into sin, or so they would say.

Fallen into sin YOU ASSUME...assume being the key word.
How about remaining conservative?

You raise hell about insults but give them out a lot.
Time to grow up, Lad!

[Noir]

Fallen into sin YOU ASSUME...assume being the key word.
How about remaining conservative?

You raise hell about insults but give them out a lot.
Time to grow up, Lad!

Its not my assumption it’s their worldview. If you are not as hardline as them that’s because you’ve fallen to sin.
Given they would view you and your church as sinners, you can imagine what they think of the likes of me.

But hey, at least neither of us are anti-Christ worshipping Catholics.

[Kathianne]

Fallen into sin YOU ASSUME...assume being the key word.
How about remaining conservative?

You raise hell about insults but give them out a lot.
Time to grow up, Lad!

Actually Noir doesn't insult people often, never about their sexuality. BTW, you do KNOW he is not gay, right? So why do you persist?

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Yes, change is coming, much as the old guard are doing everything they can to try and resist. The silver lining is that some of the old guard are starting to get quite old indeed, and with that comes death, and with their death comes progress.


What an odd, morbid presumption.


I will happily elaborate, however, in light of your recent trend manor of posting to me I want to make clear that future posts that are littered with insults will not be responded to. You can have a conversation with me, or you can insult me, not both.
Actually that's not true. I've responded to you many, many times, in a very matter of fact, non insulting manner, as I'm doing now, and you ignored me regardless, as I have no doubt you will again. So no, you can't have a conversation with you, even if it's polite.

[Drummond]

Yes, change is coming, much as the old guard are doing everything they can to try and resist. The silver lining is that some of the old guard are starting to get quite old indeed, and with that comes death, and with their death comes progress.

---- Charming. Well, I for one certainly see that as an insult against older generations !!

Your presumption is that progress WILL come from youngsters taking over from the 'old guard'. Explain your 'certainty' on that.

I daresay that, at the one and only time Hitler was elected to power, a lot of youngsters were happy to vote for such a 'revolutionary' as that character ! So tell me, was THAT 'progress' ?

Could it be that the 'old guard' you're happy to imply a disparagement against, have an experience of life which helps to confer wisdom ? Do THEY have a better 'take' on life than people just barely into adulthood ??

Think about it.

[CSM]

---- Charming. Well, I for one certainly see that as an insult against older generations !!

Your presumption is that progress WILL come from youngsters taking over from the 'old guard'. Explain your 'certainty' on that.

I daresay that, at the one and only time Hitler was elected to power, a lot of youngsters were happy to vote for such a 'revolutionary' as that character ! So tell me, was THAT 'progress' ?

Could it be that the 'old guard' you're happy to imply a disparagement against, have an experience of life which helps to confer wisdom ? Do THEY have a better 'take' on life than people just barely into adulthood ??

Think about it.

The irony is that there will ALWAYS be an "old guard". Some day, it will be Noir and his compatriots. Rest assured there will be young whipper-snappers in abundance to cast backhanded insults at Noir and his ilk.

[CSM]

Yes, change is coming, much as the old guard are doing everything they can to try and resist. The silver lining is that some of the old guard are starting to get quite old indeed, and with that comes death, and with their death comes progress.

Rejoice in the demise of the "old guard" if you must. It ill be your turn to die soon enough and I am quite certain that there will be those that rejoice in the thought of that event. They may even tout the progress that will be made after you are no longer there to resist them. Not so strange how that works, really.

[Kathianne]

Yes, change is coming, much as the old guard are doing everything they can to try and resist. The silver lining is that some of the old guard are starting to get quite old indeed, and with that comes death, and with their death comes progress.

Rejoice in the demise of the "old guard" if you must. It ill be your turn to die soon enough and I am quite certain that there will be those that rejoice in the thought of that event. They may even tout the progress that will be made after you are no longer there to resist them. Not so strange how that works, really.
Just a few year ahead of my time, “Never trust anyone over 30.”

About the same thing and just as Ill thought out.

[Abbey Marie]

Just a few year ahead of my time, “Never trust anyone over 30.”

About the same thing and just as Ill thought out.

“Youth is wasted on the young”

[Kathianne]

“Youth is wasted on the young”
If only. . .

Then again, without the lessons learned, we'd still be old and as dumb as 20. ;)

[Noir]

---- Charming. Well, I for one certainly see that as an insult against older generations !!

Then you are misunderstanding my point - the old guard of the DUP are not representative of all older generations (thankfully).


Your presumption is that progress WILL come from youngsters taking over from the 'old guard'. Explain your 'certainty' on that.

Because of the growing unrest of the intolerance often the DUP which has been undeniable over the last few years.


I daresay that, at the one and only time Hitler was elected to power, a lot of youngsters were happy to vote for such a 'revolutionary' as that character ! So tell me, was THAT 'progress' ?

No. You are taking what I’m saying very specifically about Northern Ireland’s current situation and applying it recklessly.


Could it be that the 'old guard' you're happy to imply a disparagement against, have an experience of life which helps to confer wisdom ? Do THEY have a better 'take' on life than people just barely into adulthood ??

Think about it.

See misunderstanding above.


The irony is that there will ALWAYS be an "old guard". Some day, it will be Noir and his compatriots. Rest assured there will be young whipper-snappers in abundance to cast backhanded insults at Noir and his ilk.

See misunderstanding above.


Yes, change is coming, much as the old guard are doing everything they can to try and resist. The silver lining is that some of the old guard are starting to get quite old indeed, and with that comes death, and with their death comes progress.

Rejoice in the demise of the "old guard" if you must. It ill be your turn to die soon enough and I am quite certain that there will be those that rejoice in the thought of that event. They may even tout the progress that will be made after you are no longer there to resist them. Not so strange how that works, really.

See misunderstanding above.

[Drummond]

Then you are misunderstanding my point - the old guard of the DUP are not representative of all older generations (thankfully).

Your 'point' did not mention the DUP, until you decided to add this factor, belatedly, into the mix, and then, only because I'd mentioned them myself. You made a clear and highly specific 'youth v oldsters' comparison, and a disparaging one.

In any case, not all of the DUP is made up of old people !!! So I'm struggling to accept your point within the parameters you've - belatedly - set for it.


Because of the growing unrest of the intolerance often the DUP which has been undeniable over the last few years.

See lack of age balance referred to above.


No. You are taking what I’m saying very specifically about Northern Ireland’s current situation and applying it recklessly.

No. You are inflating the DUP's importance yourself, and characterising their significance less than accurately.

[Noir]

Your 'point' did not mention the DUP, until you decided to add this factor, belatedly, into the mix, and then, only because I'd mentioned them myself. You made a clear and highly specific 'youth v oldsters' comparison, and a disparaging one.

In any case, not all of the DUP is made up of old people !!! So I'm struggling to accept your point within the parameters you've - belatedly - set for it.

I was literally responding to your post about the DUP.
The quote I was replying to from you said “DUP” 3 times in one sentence, if it wasn’t clear I was talking about the old guard of the DUP then that’s on me, but I was.


No. You are inflating the DUP's importance yourself, and characterising their significance less than accurately.

In what sense are the DUP not the most important and significant political force in Northern Ireland?

[Drummond]

In what sense are the DUP not the most important and significant political force in Northern Ireland?

Interesting. Did you not yourself make the point that the DUP's relevance had been magnified out of all proportion because of their importance to Theresa May's ability to run her own Government ?

You've changed your tune !

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/06/09/this-minor-party-holds-the-trump-cards-in-the-british-parliament-what-is-the-dup/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.bc655911d54e


'A tiny party of hardliners holds the balance of power in Britain' ....

After last week’s shocking results, Britain’s Conservative Party had to make a deal with Northern Ireland’s Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) to return to government. It appears likely that the DUP will not go into a coalition with the Conservatives, but will simply support the “minority government” from the outside on key votes, while not being part of the coalition.

Here’s what you need to know about the DUP and the likely deal they will strike.

It is Northern Ireland’s hard-line Unionist party.

The DUP, as the name suggests, is a party that supports the union between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and opposes nationalists and republicans who would prefer a united Ireland. In Northern Ireland’s political system, there is a very strong link between voting and religion: Most Catholics vote for nationalist or republicans; most Protestants vote for unionists. Since a peace agreement was reached a decade ago, Ulster politics have become more polarized, with Protestants tending to vote for more extreme unionists and Catholics voting for republicans, who were associated with the Irish Republican Army, instead of nationalists. This polarization benefited both the DUP, which took seats in Parliament from the less fervent Ulster Unionist Party in Thursday’s election, and the republican Sinn Fein party, which wiped out the nationalist SDLP.

They are growing, I'll certainly give you that. They are much less of a 'minor' voice. But they do have something of a history of being a 'minority' Party in your own homeland, as I understand it.

And I repeat my earlier point: they have young people, as well as older people. A cross-generational Party (as they all are !) stand united behind a common cause ... FACT.

[Noir]

Interesting. Did you not yourself make the point that the DUP's relevance had been magnified out of all proportion because of their importance to Theresa May's ability to run her own Government ?

You've changed your tune !

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/06/09/this-minor-party-holds-the-trump-cards-in-the-british-parliament-what-is-the-dup/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.bc655911d54e



They are growing, I'll certainly give you that. They are much less of a 'minor' voice. But they do have something of a history of being a 'minority' Party in your own homeland, as I understand it.

And I repeat my earlier point: they have young people, as well as older people. A cross-generational Party (as they all are !) stand united behind a common cause ... FACT.

Yes their relevance was (and is) magnified on the U.K. stage, that is not in contradiction to anything I’ve said here.

Their young people are much more liberal (relatively speaking) than their old guard, which is exactly the point I’ve been making - but they aren’t going to kick the old guard out, they will need to chose retirement, or die.