Salisbury Novichok attack: new war of words.

[Drummond]

Here we go again.

The British authorities know Novichok was used in a nerve agent attack in Salisbury, Wiltshire, England. They know where it came from. Two suspects responsible for deploying it have been identified, and arrest warrants issued.

STILL, Russia defies any and all moves to hold them to account for their own actions. Responsibility is denied. Anyone speaking out in favour of Russia's evident culpability is, we're told, 'lying'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-6142127/Moscow-accused-playing-dice-people-s-lives-clashes-spy-attack.html


Russia faced a fresh wave of international condemnation over the Salisbury spy poisoning as it claimed Britain was lying about the latest developments in the case.

Moscow was accused of “playing dice” with the lives of people living in the Wiltshire city by the UK during an emergency debate at the United Nations.

The US warned the world should be “chilled to the bone” by the developments set out in recent days.

US President Donald Trump, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, French President Emmanuel Macron and Canadian PM Justin Trudeau earlier issued a joint statement with Theresa May agreeing with the British assessment that the operation was “almost certainly approved at a senior government level” in Moscow.

On Wednesday, two Russian nationals – Alexander Petrov and Ruslan Boshirov – said to be members of Russia’s military intelligence service the GRU, were identified as suspects by police investigating the poisoning of former spy Sergei Skripal in March.

GCHQ head Jeremy Fleming warned that Russia poses an “active” threat during a speech in Washington.

He called on the international community to reject the Kremlin’s “brazen determination to undermine the international rules-based order”.

But Russia claimed the UK had been “mendacious” and was trying to unleash “disgusting anti-Russian hysteria” during talks at the United Nations.

So it goes on, with Russia effectively demanding, expecting, impunity in assassinating anyone it chooses, anywhere on the planet.

Such a power, I suggest - unless it reforms - can never be trusted as a responsible player on the international stage !

Should Balu, or any Russian spectator of this forum care to defend their Motherland's murderous ways ... bring it on. Explain to us why Russia must remain immune to accountability for these heinous acts.

[Noir]

Russia? Untrustworthy? Who’d of thunk. I wonder how many murders he would have to commit in America before the opinion polls in the States dropped for Putin.

Despite it all however I was relieved to know at the time that Boris Johnson, when he still held the office of foreign secretary, was leading the charge and fight for Britain during the crisis, and stopping at nothing to hold Russia to task for their murder of British Citizens. Weren’t you?

[High_Plains_Drifter]

STILL, Russia defies any and all moves to hold them to account for their own actions. Responsibility is denied. Anyone speaking out in favour of Russia's evident culpability is, we're told, 'lying'.

What's going on in Britain? Is there no free speech there at all? Is Heir Goebbels still alive or what? Does it have something to do with the muslim mayor of London? Putin seems real chummy with the muslims just like Hitler was, and they both have their reasons why.

[Drummond]

Russia? Untrustworthy? Who’d of thunk. I wonder how many murders he would have to commit in America before the opinion polls in the States dropped for Putin.

Despite it all however I was relieved to know at the time that Boris Johnson, when he still held the office of foreign secretary, was leading the charge and fight for Britain during the crisis, and stopping at nothing to hold Russia to task for their murder of British Citizens. Weren’t you?

Admit it. You've been reading the Guardian again, haven't you ?

Better for Americans to comment than myself, but I'd guess that IF Putin is at all popular in America, it'd be because he's a strong leader. But other than that, I struggle to see why they would.

Not sure if sarcasm was your intention in your final paragraph. If it was, it was misguided. For example:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-vladimir-putin-ordered-salisbury-nerve-agent-attack-a3791951.html


Boris Johnson today said it was “overwhelmingly likely” that Vladimir Putin ordered the Salisbury attack.

Stepping up the accusations against the Kremlin, the Foreign Secretary put the Russian president in the frame for the use of a nerve agent to poison the former spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter earlier this month.

Visiting the Battle of Britain Bunker museum in Uxbridge with his Polish counterpart, Mr Johnson said: “Our quarrel is with Putin’s Kremlin, and with his decision — and we think it overwhelmingly likely that it was his decision — to direct the use of a nerve agent on the streets of the UK, on the streets of Europe, for the first time since the Second World War. That is why we are at odds with Russia.”

His words went further than those of Theresa May, who has laid the blame for the attack on Russia but not directly on Mr Putin.

We did take action, taking the tit-for-tat (as it invariably occurs ..) route of expelling Russian 'diplomats'. And by the way, Trump's own expulsions of them from American soil was impressive, and let me say, folks, very appreciated.

[Drummond]

What's going on in Britain? Is there no free speech there at all? Is Heir Goebbels still alive or what? Does it have something to do with the muslim mayor of London? Putin seems real chummy with the muslims just like Hitler was, and they both have their reasons why.

What I meant in my final sentence had nothing to do with British reaction or condemnation, or clamping down on free speech, and everything to do with the near-inevitable hand-wringing denials which emanate from Russia.

That said ... the British Left, in the guise of the Labour Party leader, Jeremy Corbyn, tried to divert culpability away from Putin. Here's an example of his 'spin' ...

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5815114/now-jeremy-corbyn-says-russian-mafia-could-be-behind-salisbury-poisoning/


JEREMY Corbyn was left isolated last night as he claimed “Mafia-like groups” could have carried out the Salisbury chemical attack.

Mr Corbyn refused to condemn the Kremlin for a third time in four days — as his MPs demanded he axe the spin chief who cast doubt on MI5 evidence.

The Labour leader wrote in The Guardian: “This is not a time for hasty judgments that could lead to a new Cold War.”

He said the Russian state may have “authored” the atrocity — but said “Russian Mafia-like groups allowed to gain a toehold in Britain cannot be excluded”.

He added: “Russian authorities must be held to account on the basis of the evidence.

"Our response must be decisive and proportionate.

“But let’s not manufacture division over Russia where none exists.”


Sky News found 18 per cent of voters back Mr Corbyn over the attack — and 69 per cent the PM.

Corbyn was trying to hold out on judging conclusively against Putin short of absolute evidence of his part in the attack.


JEREMY Corbyn sparked uproar this week with his repeated failure to condemn Vladimir Putin for the Sergei Skripal poisoning - but it should be no surprise given the Labour leader and his top team’s close links to Russia...

Mr Corbyn has often blamed anyone other than Russia when it comes to aggression by Moscow, usually directing his ire towards Nato, which he said was “the father of the Cold War”. In 2015 he also blamed the violence in the Crimea on the west, saying: “I am not condoning what Russia has done and is doing [in Ukraine].“But everything has an equal and opposite reaction and so the more you build up Nato forces, the more of an excuse the Russians have.” In 2014, as Russia invaded the Crimea Mr Corbyn wrote in an article for the communist newspaper the Morning Star saying Putin’s actions were “not unprovoked”.

[Noir]

Admit it. You've been reading the Guardian again, haven't you ?

I don’t read the guardian.


Better for Americans to comment than myself, but I'd guess that IF Putin is at all popular in America, it'd be because he's a strong leader. But other than that, I struggle to see why they would.

Putins popularity has been well documented.


Not sure if sarcasm was your intention in your final paragraph. If it was, it was misguided. For example:

Do you remember what Boris was doing during the Salisbury COBRA meeting?

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I don’t read the guardian.
Why not?



Putins popularity has been well documented.
With who? Link?




Do you remember what Boris was doing during the Salisbury COBRA meeting?
Can you answer a question with something other than a question?

[Drummond]

I don’t read the guardian.

Why not ?

OK. The Daily Mirror, then ? The Morning Star ??


Putins popularity has been well documented.

I echo High Plains Drifter's question. Provide evidence of this assertion.


Do you remember what Boris was doing during the Salisbury COBRA meeting?

No. So why not enlighten us ? Providing, if it's a matter of doing so, proper context for whatever your reply is, of course.

[Gunny]

I don’t read the guardian.



Putins popularity has been well documented.



Do you remember what Boris was doing during the Salisbury COBRA meeting?Putin is not popular in the US. He was popular with some of us for punking out Barrack Obama. That should tell you how much Obama was hated that some of us would actually think our President being punked by a Russian President was funny.

That is one event, several years ago. In the big picture (d0 try to keep up) Putin is a threat on the international stage to anyone that stands in his way.

[Noir]

Why not ?

Why would I want to read it?



I echo High Plains Drifter's question. Provide evidence of this assertion.

Attached Pew Statistics, Republican approval as high as 25%, a big improvement on a few years ago, and just generally way too high I’m sure you’d agree.

11682



No. So why not enlighten us ? Providing, if it's a matter of doing so, proper context for whatever your reply is, of course.

He arranged a photo shoot, and chose to attend the photo shoot rather than attended the Cobra meeting.

[Gunny]

Why would I want to read it?




Attached Pew Statistics, Republican approval as high as 25%, a big improvement on a few years ago, and just generally way too high I’m sure you’d agree.

11682




He arranged a photo shoot, and chose to attend the photo shoot rather than attended the Cobra meeting.Do you ever read what you post? What do you suppose US adults polled know about Vladimir Putin besides what the US media tells them? Do you know how often Putin is NOT in the news here? Generally, not much at all. Basically, he's out of sight out of mind to most Americans and they like it that way.

[Drummond]

Do you ever read what you post? What do you suppose US adults polled know about Vladimir Putin besides what the US media tells them? Do you know how often Putin is NOT in the news here? Generally, not much at all. Basically, he's out of sight out of mind to most Americans and they like it that way.

... although, to be fair, American news tends to dominate news coverage anyway. I've visited New York several times, listened to the news broadcasts ... WINS News was always my favourite ... and it was always the same.

[Drummond]

Why would I want to read it?

Why, to get your doses of propaganda, of course !! Lefties don't view and REview reality as it unfolds, minus any attempt at filtering. Always, you need the necessary spin given to you in order to see things in the 'correct' way.

So I'm asking again. If not the Guardian, what IS your source of 'news' .. ? It has to be something pro-Leftie ... and the Mirror and Morning Star fit, in the absence of any other suggestions.



Attached Pew Statistics, Republican approval as high as 25%, a big improvement on a few years ago, and just generally way too high I’m sure you’d agree.

11682

A mere 25 percent ?

So you want me to think you're making a serious point ??:rolleyes:


He arranged a photo shoot, and chose to attend the photo shoot rather than attended the Cobra meeting.

1. Was he invited to that particular invoking of COBRA ? (COBRA meetings, as we both should know, aren't at all regular, and are only called in time of emergency)

2. What 'photo shoot' ?

3. I asked you to provide explanatory context. Where is it ?

[Gunny]

... although, to be fair, American news tends to dominate news coverage anyway. I've visited New York several times, listened to the news broadcasts ... WINS News was always my favourite ... and it was always the same.That, I'll take your word for. I am on the inside looking out so have no way to judge it.

When I want international news, I generally go to the BBC or Jerusalem Post just to get an outside POV since what we get is the standard "Putin slept here", 2-3 line paragraph as it takes up space otherwise used for trashing President Trump.

I took 4 years of journalism; therefore, I take ALL journalism with a grain of salt :)

As far as the topic goes, it seems to me Noir wants to deflect from the topic by dragging the US into the fray which is a UK - Russian affair. If I recall correctly, The President of the United States said we support the UK in the matter. Doesn't matter what some poll Noir dredged up states. That is our official stance.

[Noir]

Why, to get your doses of propaganda, of course !! Lefties don't view and REview reality as it unfolds, minus any attempt at filtering. Always, you need the necessary spin given to you in order to see things in the 'correct' way.

So I'm asking again. If not the Guardian, what IS your source of 'news' .. ? It has to be something pro-Leftie ... and the Mirror and Morning Star fit, in the absence of any other suggestions.

I don’t buy any newspapers, when I have some spare change at an airport etc i’d buy ‘The Week’. I most news print is just commentary so I’m not much interested in that.


A mere 25 percent ?

So you want me to think you're making a serious point ??😏

If you don’t think that’s outrageously high, fair enough, personally I think the 9% favourability from dem/ dem leaning is way too high.



1. Was he invited to that particular invoking of COBRA ? (COBRA meetings, as we both should know, aren't at all regular, and are only called in time of emergency)

2. What 'photo shoot' ?

3. I asked you to provide explanatory context. Where is it ?

Yeah the Foreign Secretary probably wasn’t invited, the attempted murders would probably of been more in the remit of the Housing Development Minister.

Regarding the rest - I don’t know what more you want, he was the foreign secretary, he arranged a private photo shoot for portraits, rather than attend the cobra meeting.

[Drummond]

That, I'll take your word for. I am on the inside looking out so have no way to judge it.

When I want international news, I generally go to the BBC or Jerusalem Post just to get an outside POV since what we get is the standard "Putin slept here", 2-3 line paragraph as it takes up space otherwise used for trashing President Trump.

I took 4 years of journalism; therefore, I take ALL journalism with a grain of salt :)

As far as the topic goes, it seems to me Noir wants to deflect from the topic by dragging the US into the fray which is a UK - Russian affair. If I recall correctly, The President of the United States said we support the UK in the matter. Doesn't matter what some poll Noir dredged up states. That is our official stance.

American news broadcasts, especially on the radio, always carry a higher percentage of 'home-grown' news items as part of the total than I've known to be true over here. It's very noticeable to British ears !

I agree, Noir is dragging the US into the fray. American support is very appreciated, but it's primarily a UK-Russia issue. Although .. there's the dimension to this of Russia arrogantly trying to set a precedent, one of committing acts of assassination on foreign territories, and saying that it's something they should never have to face consequences for ... or, even blame !

Have Russia believe this, have it proved that such actions are consequence-free, and it must follow that no country will be immune from Russia's murderous actions. Why would they always just single out the UK ? Therefore, on that basis, I'd suggest that there's legitimate international cause for concern.

[Drummond]

I don’t buy any newspapers, when I have some spare change at an airport etc i’d buy ‘The Week’. I most news print is just commentary so I’m not much interested in that.

So, your biases aren't programmed into you ? Seriously ?


Yeah the Foreign Secretary probably wasn’t invited, the attempted murders would probably of been more in the remit of the Housing Development Minister.

Regarding the rest - I don’t know what more you want, he was the foreign secretary, he arranged a private photo shoot for portraits, rather than attend the cobra meeting.

Now we're getting to it. If in fact he wasn't invited, by what conceivable right would he attend one ??

Is it your expectation that Boris should've gatecrashed what was and is, by its very nature, a 'high security' venue ??

Well, thank you, Noir. Next time, I hope you'll include greater fairness and balance in your observations !

[Noir]

So, your biases aren't programmed into you ? Seriously ?

I don’t understand why you think it is necessary for someone to read a newspaper.




Now we're getting to it. If in fact he wasn't invited, by what conceivable right would he attend one ??

Is it your expectation that Boris should've gatecrashed what was and is, by its very nature, a 'high security' venue ??

Well, thank you, Noir. Next time, I hope you'll include greater fairness and balance in your observations !

If you want to believe that the Foreign Secretary wasn’t invited to a meeting about an attempted murder in Britain by a suspected foreign actor, fair enough.

[Drummond]

I don’t understand why you think it is necessary for someone to read a newspaper.

It's not, these days.

Regardless of exactly how it's done, though, most Lefties need their propaganda dripfed to them. In your case .. wouldn't you want your funds to go to the coffers of a Leftie publication ? You know ... to help prop them up in your very minor way ?


If you want to believe that the Foreign Secretary wasn’t invited to a meeting about an attempted murder in Britain by a suspected foreign actor, fair enough.

Interesting choice of words. Have you hopes of being recruited by the BBC ?

Words you chose in a previous post answer you, though. Let me remind you:


Yeah the Foreign Secretary probably wasn’t invited

I'd previously asked you: 'Was he invited to that particular invoking of COBRA ?' That was YOUR reply.

Some advice, Noir. Spend less time lapping up propaganda (from wherever it is your supply of it comes from) and instead better focus on real conversations, and the real world .....

[Noir]

Words you chose in a previous post answer you, though. Let me remind you:



I'd previously asked you: 'Was he invited to that particular invoking of COBRA ?' That was YOUR reply.

Surething because “Yeah the Foreign Secretary probably wasn’t invited, the attempted murders would probably of been more in the remit of the Housing Development Minister.” Is clearly not sarcastic at all 🙃

Why you’re so willing to perch your hat for Boris on an event you apparently didn’t know about until I mentioned it I have no idea.

[Drummond]

Surething because “Yeah the Foreign Secretary probably wasn’t invited, the attempted murders would probably of been more in the remit of the Housing Development Minister.” Is clearly not sarcastic at all ��

Why you’re so willing to perch your hat for Boris on an event you apparently didn’t know about until I mentioned it I have no idea.

... eh ??

- Look. You've neither need nor reason to post in such a fashion. Your inattentiveness to what you yourself decide to post, is a matter for you. YOU thought he probably wasn't invited, and you may well be correct (you probably are, on this one) ... in which case, his lack of attendance is explained, and is fully reasonable (and your attempt to wriggle out of your error by claiming sarcasm as its qualifying context is, frankly, puerile). COBRA meetings, of all of the meetings our Government has, are going to be ultra security-conscious affairs. Nobody, regardless of their standing, has any right to gatecrash one !!

How is it for us to loftily judge who the PM should wish to choose, or to not choose, who attends these meetings ?

So, that's settled, then. Criticism of Boris on this issue is not warranted, is not even our business. QED.

[Noir]

... eh ??

- Look. You've neither need nor reason to post in such a fashion. Your inattentiveness to what you yourself decide to post, is a matter for you. YOU thought he probably wasn't invited, and you may well be correct (you probably are, on this one) ... in which case, his lack of attendance is explained, and is fully reasonable (and your attempt to wriggle out of your error by claiming sarcasm as its qualifying context is, frankly, puerile). COBRA meetings, of all of the meetings our Government has, are going to be ultra security-conscious affairs. Nobody, regardless of their standing, has any right to gatecrash one !!

How is it for us to loftily judge who the PM should wish to choose, or to not choose, who attends these meetings ?

So, that's settled, then. Criticism of Boris on this issue is not warranted. QED.

If you are able to use a search engine, you will be able to quickly find multiple stories about Boris not turning up to the Cobra meeting that he was expected to attend.

[Gunny]

American news broadcasts, especially on the radio, always carry a higher percentage of 'home-grown' news items as part of the total than I've known to be true over here. It's very noticeable to British ears !

I agree, Noir is dragging the US into the fray. American support is very appreciated, but it's primarily a UK-Russia issue. Although .. there's the dimension to this of Russia arrogantly trying to set a precedent, one of committing acts of assassination on foreign territories, and saying that it's something they should never have to face consequences for ... or, even blame !

Have Russia believe this, have it proved that such actions are consequence-free, and it must follow that no country will be immune from Russia's murderous actions. Why would they always just single out the UK ? Therefore, on that basis, I'd suggest that there's legitimate international cause for concern.I completely agree russia is an issue. Putin is a bully and bullies will not stop until they are stopped. A very simple solution turned into a quagmire by self-interest and/or a lack of a pair between the legs by much of the international community.

An "old Marine Corps axiom": Lead, follow, or get the Hell out of my way. As this applies to my previous response. It is an issue between the UK and Russia as primaries. Would be rather poor form not to mention walking into an alley blind for the US to walk all over the UK and assume the lead when the incident affects the UK directly, and the UK has all the evidence. The UK took the lead. The US followed your lead. Most others have "gotten the Hell out of the way" with "well, we don't know for sure", chickenshit responses.

I suspect after everyone's done pointing fingers and talking, little or nothing will be done about it. Just a little to nothing has been done about Ukraine.

To support my point that most Americans have no idea what's going on is that if you had not kept the issue relevant on this board, it was mostly forgotten here. Unless I missed it, I haven't seen any thing in the media here about it since the incident first occurred. For some reason, people would rather wait for another WWII to do anything rather than stop the aggressor(s) before they get started.

[Drummond]

If you are able to use a search engine, you will be able to quickly find multiple stories about Boris not turning up to the Cobra meeting that he was expected to attend.

Oh, for God's sake !! Are you still going on about this ?

You're changing your tune, now, and telling me that Boris was expected to attend ?? AGAIN ... this is what you posted, before ...


Yeah the Foreign Secretary probably wasn’t invited

Enough, already.