Nugent on Hillary and Obama

[-Cp]

LMAO!:

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[hjmick]

Funny thing, the LiveLeak website says, "Ted Nugent threatens Barrack Obama and Hillary Clinton during a performance- with machine guns in hand!" Yet, after watching and listening to the video, I heard no threat. WTF?

[darin]

HE sure is vulgar!

[hjmick]

HE sure is vulgar!

That's Ted.

[-Cp]

HE sure is vulgar!

Yup.. but what a hoot he'd be to go hunting with! :)

[darin]

I dunno - I found his hootin' and hollering in that clip a little lame. :-/

[-Cp]

I dunno - I found his hootin' and hollering in that clip a little lame. :-/

True.. but we also saw a "Clip" not the entire deal - I'm sure it was clipped that way to paint him in a worse light...

I feel we're missing a lot of context here... just my feeling.. could be wrong.. dunno

[nevadamedic]

Funny thing, the LiveLeak website says, "Ted Nugent threatens Barrack Obama and Hillary Clinton during a performance- with machine guns in hand!" Yet, after watching and listening to the video, I heard no threat. WTF?

Oh boy, he spoke out publically against Hillary. I can see the headlines now "Ted Nugent Commits Suicide with a Sniper Rifle"

[Pale Rider]

LMAO!:

I love it. That's the way I LIKE to hear someone talk to obama bin laden and hitlery.

[Nate]

The Nuge is spot-on as usual. I'd be curious to know whether or not those were both actual NFA Class III weapons, however.

[avatar4321]

eh. there are better ways to point out their flaws.

[Trigg]

I don't see this being any different than what the Dixie Chicks said about Bush a few years ago.

If the people who buy his records and see his shows are offended they will simply stop buying his stuff.

Just like them he has a right to free speach.

[nevadamedic]

I don't see this being any different than what the Dixie Chicks said about Bush a few years ago.

If the people who buy his records and see his shows are offended they will simply stop buying his stuff.

Just like them he has a right to free speach.

Exactly

[gabosaurus]

No one has bought Nugent's records in 20 years. They only go to his concerts to hear the old songs and see if he will flip his lid again.

I would love to see a few Viet Nam vets show up at his rallies and question him about his cowardice and lack of ethics.
"Still making that blood money, Hanoi Ted? I remember when you were saying the same things about vets that you did about Hillary. I know you like to visit the Iraqi vets. When was the last time you visited a Nam vet who lost his arm or leg while you were playing shows after avoiding the draft?"

[Pale Rider]

I never knew this. But since I've heard and read about what this pussy draft dodger did, I got no use for the sons a bitch...

Proof: Ted Nugent Is A Draft Dodger. Will Hannity Keep Defending Him?
Reported by Ellen - August 26, 2007


Since we've been discussing Ted Nugent lately, this seemed a good time to bring up Nugent's draft dodging. It's well known that Nugent claims to have gone to great lengths to flunk his Draft Board physical. What's not so well-known is that he got a student deferment at the same time he was touring with his rock band, putting in an average of 300 shows a year. How was he going to school and touring that much at the same time?

One of our readers sent me a copy of an extract of Nugent’s Selective Service records, obtained via a FOIA request (copy below). As you can see, Nugent received student deferments in 1967 (1-S) and 1968 (2-S). But according to the Internet Movie Data Base website, Nugent has been “performing professionally since 1958, non-stop yearly touring since 1967, averaging more than 300 shows per year '67-73.” Hmm, that would include the two years he was supposedly too wrapped up in his studies to be serving his country.

But that hasn’t stopped Nugent from insisting that if he HAD served, he would have been one big mofo soldier. As the Rutland Herald reported, Here's what Nugent said he would have done if he went to Vietnam:

"… if I would have gone over there, I'd have been killed, or I'd have killed, or I'd kill all the hippies in the foxholes … I would have killed everybody," he told the Detroit Free Press in an interview published July 15, 1990."
The Herald also noted that Nugent’s efforts to avoid the draft make President Bush look like a war hero.

(Nugent claims) that 30 days before his Draft Board Physical, he stopped all forms of personal hygiene. The last 10 days he ingested nothing but junk food and Pepsi, and a week before his physical, he stopped using the bathroom altogether, virtually living inside his pants caked with excrement and urine. That spectacle won Nugent a deferment.

Sean Hannity went to ridiculous lengths Friday night (8/24/07) to defend Nugent's threatening rants against Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. FOX & Friends whitewashed Nugent's comments the next day. Apparently, this "patriot" can do no wrong on the "We like America" network.

http://www.newshounds.us/2007/08/26/proof_ted_nugent_is_a_draft_dodger_will_hannity_ke ep_defending_him.php

[gabosaurus]

Hannity obviously did no research on this one. He just likes screamers.

I have no respect for those people who try to make themselves over into something that they are not. If you read further into Nugent's past, you will find out that he was once very anti-gun (being a bow hunter) and anti-government.
To me, it's like Jane Fonda holding "Support the Troops" rallies. The cowardly leopard doesn't change its spots. A man who once mocked and derided Viet Nam vets should not have the right to praise vets of later wars.

[glockmail]

Funny thing, the LiveLeak website says, "Ted Nugent threatens Barrack Obama and Hillary Clinton during a performance- with machine guns in hand!" Yet, after watching and listening to the video, I heard no threat. WTF?
a liberal lying? I'm shocked.

[glockmail]

Hannity obviously did no research on this one. He just likes screamers.

I have no respect for those people who try to make themselves over into something that they are not. If you read further into Nugent's past, you will find out that he was once very anti-gun (being a bow hunter) and anti-government.
To me, it's like Jane Fonda holding "Support the Troops" rallies. The cowardly leopard doesn't change its spots. A man who once mocked and derided Viet Nam vets should not have the right to praise vets of later wars. I used to believe liberal lies. So that makes me unqualified to now be a conservative?

[truthmatters]

the hypocracy is just unbelievable at times.

They take someone like Kerry who served with honor and exscoriate him because they dont like his views yet will treat a guy who would shit his pants for a week to keep from serving and then make a hero out of him for cheering someone elses kid into fighting.

This is why I pos repped the guy on the right who posted this.

[Gaffer]

When nugent was getting ready for his draft physical he must have been very lonely. :laugh2:

When I went for my draft physical I never even considered how to get out of it. Or how to make myself unacceptable. Being unacceptable for the military never entered my mind. To me attempting to avoid the draft was cowardly. And still is.

All my friends enrolled in college or anything else they could do to avoid the draft. They all were eventually classified 4F and unfit for the military anyway and their rush to avoid the draft served no purpose. I was the only one to be drafted and go to Vietnam.

For every draft dodger there was someone else that went in his place. And some of those didn't come back. So every dodger has to carry the fact that someone else may have died in his stead.

[Pale Rider]

the hypocracy is just unbelievable at times.

They take someone like Kerry who served with honor and exscoriate him because they dont like his views yet will treat a guy who would shit his pants for a week to keep from serving and then make a hero out of him for cheering someone elses kid into fighting.

This is why I pos repped the guy on the right who posted this.

Yeah well, thanks for the rep and all but, I wouldn't say kerry served with honor. He shot up a rickshaw full of rice and got some ricochetted in his ass, and then demanded a Purple Heart for it. That's kind of chicken shit don't ya think?

[Pale Rider]

When nugent was getting ready for his draft physical he must have been very lonely. :laugh2:

When I went for my draft physical I never even considered how to get out of it. Or how to make myself unacceptable. Being unacceptable for the military never entered my mind. To me attempting to avoid the draft was cowardly. And still is.

All my friends enrolled in college or anything else they could do to avoid the draft. They all were eventually classified 4F and unfit for the military anyway and their rush to avoid the draft served no purpose. I was the only one to be drafted and go to Vietnam.

For every draft dodger there was someone else that went in his place. And some of those didn't come back. So every dodger has to carry the fact that someone else may have died in his stead.

If you're a true draft dodger, I don't think you should be allowed to live in this country. If you won't fight for it, you shouldn't be allowed to live here.

[glockmail]

.....

They take someone like Kerry who served with honor .....

Honor by your definition is:
1. Purposely joining an outfit because it was tasked to serve offshore only, in little danger of contact with the enemy;
2. When the task changed, obtaining at least two Purple Hearts over the heads of his commanding officers for injuries treated with nothing more than a band-aid;
3. Immediately upon obtaining a third claiming his "get out of jail card", and only serving 4 months out of a 12 month commitment.

:pee:

[gabosaurus]

Even if all that is true, shouldn't a man who accepted the call of his country and fought in Viet Nam be held as more honorable that some chickenshit who avoided the draft?

[Abbey Marie]

Even if all that is true, shouldn't a man who accepted the call of his country and fought in Viet Nam be held as more honorable that some chickenshit who avoided the draft?

Yes.

[glockmail]

Even if all that is true, shouldn't a man who accepted the call of his country and fought in Viet Nam be held as more honorable that some chickenshit who avoided the draft? Kerry did avoid service, and I assume that you are comparing that to Bush's service in the National Guard, which was served completely, in spite of all Democrat attempts to prove otherwise.

[Abbey Marie]

Kerry did avoid service, and I assume that you are comparing that to Bush's service in the National Guard, which was served completely, in spite of all Democrat attempts to prove otherwise.

I thought she was comparing it to Nugent. If it was Bush, you are right; the comparison doesn't hold.

[glockmail]

Why would she be referring to Nugent in a thread about Nugent? Douh! :p

[Abbey Marie]

Why would she be referring to Nugent in a thread about Nugent? Douh! :p

With the continual Bush-bashing that goes on, it's understandable. :salute:

[glockmail]

With the continual Bush-bashing that goes on, it's understandable. :salute:
There you go, being reasonable again. This is no place for that.
http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/3stooges.gif

[Abbey Marie]

There you go, being reasonable again. This is no place for that.
http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/3stooges.gif

Oh, geez, my husband would love that smiley. :D

[glockmail]

Oh, geez, my husband would love that smiley. :D
I assume that he's the one in the middle.

[truthmatters]

Yeah well, thanks for the rep and all but, I wouldn't say kerry served with honor. He shot up a rickshaw full of rice and got some ricochetted in his ass, and then demanded a Purple Heart for it. That's kind of chicken shit don't ya think?

That is not in the documentaion for his medals including the silver he got for saving lives.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry#Military_honors

Military honors
During the night of December 2, 1968 and early morning of December 3, 1968, Kerry was in charge of a small boat operating near a peninsula north of Cam Ranh Bay together with a Swift boat (PCF-60). According to Kerry and the two crewmen who accompanied him that night, Patrick Runyon and William Zaladonis, they surprised a group of men unloading sampans at a river crossing, who began running and failed to obey an order to stop. As the men fled, Kerry and his crew opened fire on the sampans and destroyed them, then rapidly left. During this encounter, Kerry received a minor wound in the left arm above the elbow. It was for this injury that Kerry received his first Purple Heart.[15]

Kerry received his second Purple Heart for a wound received in action on the Bo De River on February 20, 1969. The plan had been for the Swift boats to be accompanied by support helicopters. On the way up the Bo De, however, the helicopters were attacked. They returned to their base to refuel and were unable to return to the mission for several hours.

As the Swift boats reached the Cua Lon River, Kerry's boat was hit by a RPG round, and a piece of shrapnel hit Kerry's left leg, wounding him. Thereafter, they had no more trouble, and reached the Gulf of Thailand safely. Kerry still has shrapnel in his left thigh because the doctors tending to him decided to remove the damaged tissue and close the wound with sutures rather than make a wide opening to remove the shrapnel.[16] Kerry received his second Purple Heart for this injury, but like several others wounded earlier that day, he did not lose any time off from duty.[17][18]

Eight days later, on February 28, 1969, came the events for which Kerry was awarded his Silver Star. On this occasion, Kerry was in tactical command of his Swift boat and two others. Their mission included bringing a demolition team and dozens of South Vietnamese soldiers to destroy enemy sampans, structures and bunkers. Running into an ambush, Kerry "directed the boats to turn to the beach and charge the Viet Cong positions" and he "expertly directed" his boat's fire and coordinated the deployment of the South Vietnamese troops, according to the original medal citation (signed by Admiral Zumwalt). Going a short distance farther, Kerry's boat was the target of an RPG round; as the boat beached at the site, a VC with a rocket launcher jumped and ran from a spider hole. While the boat's gunner opened fire, wounding the VC on the leg, and while the other boats approached and offered cover fire, Kerry jumped from the boat and chased the VC and killed him, capturing a loaded rocket launcher.[19][20][21]

Kerry's commanding officer, Lieutenant Commander George Elliott, joked to Douglas Brinkley in 2003 that he didn't know whether to court-martial Kerry for beaching the boat without orders or give him a medal for saving the crew. Elliott recommended Kerry for the Silver Star, and Zumwalt flew into An Thoi to personally award medals to Kerry and the rest of the sailors involved in the mission. The Navy's account of Kerry's actions is presented in the original medal citation signed by Zumwalt. The engagement was documented in an after-action report, a press release written on March 1, 1969, and a historical summary dated March 17, 1969.[22]

On March 13, 1969, five Swift boats were returning to base together on the Bay Hap river from their missions that day, after a firefight earlier in the day (during which time Kerry received a slight shrapnel wound in the buttocks from blowing up a rice bunker), and debarking some but not all of the passengers at a small village. They approached a fishing weir (a series of poles across the river for hanging nets), so that one group of boats went around left, hugging the shore, and a group with Kerry's 94 boat went around right along the shoreline. A mine was detonated directly beneath the lead boat, PCF-3, as it crossed the weir to the left, lifting PCF-3 completely into the air.[23]

James Rassmann, a Green Beret advisor who was aboard PCF-94, was knocked overboard when, according to witnesses and the documentation of the event, a mine or rocket exploded close to the boat. According to the documentation for the event, Kerry's arm was injured when he was thrown against a bulkhead during the explosion. PCF 94 returned to the scene and Kerry rescued Rassmann from the water. Kerry received the Bronze Star for his actions during this incident; he also received his third Purple Heart.[24]

After the crew of PCF-3 had been rescued, and the most seriously wounded sailors evacuated by two of the PCFs, PCF 94 and another boat remained behind and helped salvage the stricken boat together with a damage-control party that had been immediately dispatched to the scene.

[glockmail]

That is not in the documentaion for his medals including the silver he got for saving lives. That's because Kerry has never released the full documentation to the public.

[glockmail]

Here's all I need to know about Kerry, and how he dishonored his country.
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z256/glockmail/180px-437px-The_New_Soldier.jpg

[Pale Rider]

Even if all that is true, shouldn't a man who accepted the call of his country and fought in Viet Nam be held as more honorable that some chickenshit who avoided the draft?

Yup.

[Pale Rider]

That is not in the documentaion for his medals including the silver he got for saving lives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry#Military_honors

Well that may be the story kerry would like you to believe, but it's all lies. Fortunately there were witnesses there, and they tell a different story...


On Kerry's first Purple Heart

...Unmentioned in Kerry's Tour Of Duty version are the actual surrounding facts. Kerry, Lieutenant William Schachte, USN, and an enlisted man were on the whaler. Seeing movement from an unknown source, the sailors opened fire on the movement. There was no hostile fire. When Kerry's rifle jammed, he picked up an M-79 grenade launcher and fired a grenade at a nearby object. This sprayed the boat with shrapnel from Kerry's own grenade, a tiny piece of which embedded in Kerry's arm.

Kerry managed to keep the tiny fragment embedded until he saw Dr. Louis Letson. Dr. Letson's affidavit is attached as Exhibit 5. When Letson inquired why Kerry was there, Kerry said that he had been wounded by hostile fire. The accompanying crewmen indicated that Kerry was the new "JFK" and that he had actually wounded himself with an M-79. Letson removed the tiny fragment with tweezers and placed a band aid over the tiny scratch. The tiny fragment removed by Letson appeared to be an M-79 fragment, as described by the personnel accompanying Kerry.

The next morning Kerry showed up at Division Commander Grant Hibbard's office. Hibbard had already spoken to Schachte and conducted an investigation. Hibbard's affidavit is attached as Exhibit 11. Hibbard's investigation revealed that Kerry's "rose thorn" scratch had been self-inflicted in the absence of hostile fire. Hibbard, therefore, booted Kerry out of his office and denied the Purple Heart.

Some three months later, cf. Exhibit 22, after all personnel actually familiar with the events of December 2, 1969 had left Vietnam, Kerry somehow managed to obtain a Purple Heart for the December 2, 1968 event from an officer with no connection to Coastal Division 14 or knowledge of the December 2, 1968 event or of Commander Hibbard's prior turn down of the Purple Heart request. ...The sole document relied upon by Kerry is a record showing the band aid and tweezers treatment by Dr. Letson recorded by deceased corpsman, Jess Carreon.

There are no witnesses who claim to have seen hostile fire -- necessary for a Purple Heart (even a rose thorn Purple Heart) -- that day. At least three witnesses, Dr. Letson (who spoke to the participants and removed the M-79 fragment), Lt. Bill Schachte (on the boat), and Cmdr. Grant Hibbard (whose investigation revealed Kerry's application for a Purple Heart to be fraudulent), are able to testify directly or based upon contemporaneous investigation that Kerry's first Purple Heart was a fraud. Thus, Lewis Letson's statement that "I know John Kerry is lying about a first Purple Heart" is conclusively established by the evidence. Like the third Purple Heart, Kerry's first Purple Heart was essential to his quick trip home.

On Kerry's third Purple Heart

...Although Kerry's "minor" bruise could never entitle him to a Purple Heart, Kerry's reported shrapnel wound to his "buttocks" (although minor according to the treating physician) from an enemy mine would have entitled him to such an award (had he not been lying about its origin).

...KJW identifies the report as Kerry's. Likewise, Kerry reported his shrapnel wounds to the Navy in an injury report:

"LTJG Kerry suffered shrapnel wounds in his left buttocks and contusions on his right forearm when a mine detonated close aboard PCF-94."

Exhibit 18. Exhibit 17 likewise identifies Kerry's "injuries" as contusion right forearm (minor) (i.e., a small bruise) and a shrapnel wound left buttocks

Kerry's third Purple Heart was his ticket home. It also was much of the basis of his Bronze Star, repeating "his bleeding arm" and shrapnel wound from the mine story. The problem is that his operating report was a total lie since Kerry's shrapnel wound "in the buttocks" came not from a mine at all as he falsely reported, but at his own hand. Larry Thurlow, an officer on shore with Kerry that day, recounts that Kerry's shrapnel wound came not from any mine, but from a self-inflicted wound when Kerry (with no enemy to be seen) threw a concussion grenade into a rice pile and stayed too close. See Exhibit 10, ¶ 3. This "brown rice" incident with rice/shrapnel lodged in Kerry from his own grenade is also recounted by James Rassman, a Kerry supporter and "the no man left behind" on page 105 of John F. Kerry: The Complete Biography By The Boston Globe Reporters Who Know Him Best, by Michael Kranish, Brian C. Mooney, and Nina J. Easton (New York: Public Affairs, 2004) (the "Kranish book"). See Exhibit 21.

Most surprisingly, John Kerry himself (while falsely reporting to the Navy and public that he suffered a shrapnel wound from a mine explosion so as to get a third Purple Heart and go home) reflected in his own journal that his buttocks' wound came, not from any mine but, rather, from a grenade tossed into a rice cache by himself or friendly troops (in the absence of any enemy fire). "I got a piece of small grenade in my @ss from one of the rice bin explosions." Exhibit 15, Tour, at 313; see also Exhibit 15, Tour, at 317. "Kerry . . . also had the bits of shrapnel and rice extracted from his backside." See also the sworn statement of participants that there was no hostile fire (Exhibits 6, 7, and 10). It also should be noted that the rice extracted from Kerry's backside could hardly be the result of an underwater mine, as Kerry claimed in his operating report.

The conclusion is inescapable: that Kerry lied by reporting to the Navy that he had been wounded by shrapnel in his backside from an enemy mine when in reality he negligently wounded himself and then lied about the wound in order to secure a third Purple Heart and a quick trip home.

On Kerry's Bronze Star

As recounted in the attached affidavits of three on-scene participants (and verified by many others present) Kerry's operating report, Bronze Star story, and subsequent "no man left behind" story are a total hoax on the Navy and the nation. As recounted in the affidavits of Van Odell (Exhibit 6), Jack Chenoweth (Exhibit 7), and Larry Thurlow (Exhibit 10) (and verified by every other officer present and many others), a mine went off under PCF 3 -- some yards from Kerry's boat. The force of the explosion disabled PCF 3 and knocked several sailors, dazed, into the water. All boats, except one, closed to rescue the sailors and defend the disabled boat. That boat -- Kerry's boat -- fled the scene. After a short period, it was evident to all on the scene that there was no additional hostile fire. Thurlow began the daring rescue of disabled PCF 3, while Chenoweth began to pluck dazed survivors of PCF 3 from the water. Midway through the process, after it was apparent that there was no hostile fire, Kerry finally returned, picking up Rassman who was only a few yards from Chenoweth's boat which was also going to pick Rassman up. Each of the affiants (and many other Swiftees on the scene that day) are certain that Kerry has wholly lied about the incident. Consider this: How could the disabled PCF abandon the scene of the mine? Why did Kerry have to "return" to the scene?

...Clearly, Van Odell is right when he says, "John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star . . . I know. I was there. I saw what happened." As Jack Chenoweth swore, "his account of what happened and what actually happened are the difference between night and day." Most poignantly, Larry Thurlow, whose brave actions saved the PCF 3 boat that day after Kerry fled, has the right to say, "When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry."

On Cambodia

If there is a consistent[1] repeated story by John Kerry about his Vietnam experience, it is his story about how he and his boat spent Christmas Eve and Christmas of 1968 illegally present in Cambodia and, listening to President Nixon's contrary assurances, developed "a deep mistrust of U.S. government pronouncements." See Exhibit 24, Kranish book, p. 84. The point of his story was that his government and his commanders were lying about Kerry's presence in Cambodia on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. During a critical debate on the floor of the United States Senate on March 27, 1986, Senator John Kerry said:

Mr. President, I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the President of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia.

I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me . . . .

Exhibit 25, Congressional Record - Senate of March 27, 1986, page 3594.

By way of further example, Kerry wrote an article for the Boston Herald on October 14, 1979:

"I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas. The absurdity of almost killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real."

...The story is a total preposterous fabrication by Kerry. Exhibit 8 is an affidavit by the Commander of the Swift boats in Vietnam, Admiral Roy Hoffmann, stating that Kerry's claim to be in Cambodia for Christmas Eve and Christmas of 1968 is a total lie. If necessary, similar affidavits are available from the entire chain of command. In reality, Kerry was at Sa Dec -- easily locatable on any map more than fifty miles from Cambodia. Kerry himself inadvertently admits that he was in Sa Dec for Christmas Eve and Christmas and not in Cambodia, as he had stated for so many years on the Senate Floor, in the newspapers, and elsewhere. Exhibit 27, Tour, pp. 213-219. Sa Dec is hardly "close" to the Cambodian border. In reality, far from being ordered secretly to Cambodia, Kerry spent a pleasant night at Sa Dec with "visions of sugar plums" dancing in his head. Exhibit 27, p. 219. At Sa Dec where the Swift boat patrol area ended, there were many miles of other boats (PBR's) leading to the Cambodian border. There were also gunboats on the border to prevent any crossing. If Kerry tried to get through, he would have been arrested. Obviously, Kerry has hardly been honest about his service in Vietnam.

Folks, these are men who treated Kerry for wounds, fought beside him in other boats, & that were in his line of command. They're also veterans who went to Vietnam and risked their lives, just like John Kerry.

Furthermore, their accounts sound VERY credible and it's quite easy to understand why they came forward.

Imagine how you'd feel if you served with a guy in a combat situation and you didn't really think much of him.

Then, a few months later, he turns up stateside, waving around a bunch of medals you don't think he earned, and telling the entire world that people like YOU are war criminals.

Then, fast forward to 2004 and here's this same guy running as a combination of Sgt. York, Patton, & John Paul Jones. Put another way, as Captain George Elliott, USN (retired) from Swift Boat Veterans for Truth said...

"In 1971, '72, for almost 18 months, (John Kerry) stood before the television audiences and claimed that the 500,000 men and women in Vietnam, and in combat, were all villains -- there were no heroes. In 2004, one hero from the Vietnam War has appeared, running for President of the United States and Commander-in-Chief. It just galls one to think about it."

http://boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=300020827

[truthmatters]

All of that ins unsubstaniated by the facts.

There is not record of those claims in the documentation.

Lieutenant William Schachte as a matter of fact changed his story of the night to say he was with Kerry when he had not claimed that until 2004 for the Swift vets and there is not documentation for him beig there.

Kerry released all the records arroungd his medals but did not release his personal records which would be lik releasing you medical records and is unnessesary to determine what happen in his carreer.

You show you would hate any soldier and maliagn them for political reasons.

[Gaffer]

All of that ins unsubstaniated by the facts.

There is not record of those claims in the documentation.

Lieutenant William Schachte as a matter of fact changed his story of the night to say he was with Kerry when he had not claimed that until 2004 for the Swift vets and there is not documentation for him beig there.

Kerry released all the records arroungd his medals but did not release his personal records which would be lik releasing you medical records and is unnessesary to determine what happen in his carreer.

You show you would hate any soldier and maliagn them for political reasons.

All that he posted was fact from the witnesses that were there. kerry is a lying scumsucking piece of shit. And that's from a real combat veteran. kerry could release his records accept he doesn't want the medical treatment he received exposed for what it was. A simple bandaid. john kerry is a disgrace. He was and is a manipulator and nothing more. He ranks right down there with fonda. :pee: kerry

[truthmatters]

All that he posted was fact from the witnesses that were there. kerry is a lying scumsucking piece of shit. And that's from a real combat veteran. kerry could release his records accept he doesn't want the medical treatment he received exposed for what it was. A simple bandaid. john kerry is a disgrace. He was and is a manipulator and nothing more. He ranks right down there with fonda. :pee: kerry

'
What about all the other people on the boat at the time who said that guy is not telling the truth?

What about the records which dont show that guy even there at the time?

what about the fact this guy had talked about the incident before and NEVER said anything about Kerry like this until 2004?

So you are telling me all the people who served with Kerry o that boat are liars but this guy isnt?

How little respect you have for our soldiers service.

[glockmail]

How little respect you have for our soldiers service. TOTAL BULLSHIT. The fact that Gaffer tells the truth about Kerry PROVES that he has respect for REAL SOLDIERS who respect the job.

[truthmatters]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp

here is snopes on the matter and it will tell you that only one of the men who served with Kerry talked dirt on him.

ALL of the ohters who actually served with him supported his bid for presidency and backed the military record which was released.

Its a sad time when a returning vet has to have his brave service destroyed for political reasons.



Origins: John Kerry's service in Vietnam as an officer in command of a Swift boat and his subsequent activities as an anti-war protester have engendered a good deal of controversy, especially among those who also served in Vietnam. Many Vietnam veterans were angered by Kerry's anti-war stance after he returned to the U.S., viewing his anti-war activities — particularly his testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971 — as unfairly and undeservedly smearing the reputations of all who served in Vietnam.

That said, the piece quoted above, in which a variety of veterans offer their views of John Kerry, isn't really something that can evaluated as "true" or "false." It's true that the men named do exist, that they served in Vietnam, and that they made the statements attributed to them, but the substance of most of these quotes is an expression of opinion, not something objectively classifiable as right or wrong.

The important point to note here is that this piece presents only one side of the story:


Although the men quoted above are often identified as "John Kerry's shipmates," only one of them, Steven Gardner, actually served under Lt. Kerry's command on a Swift boat. The other men who served under Kerry's command continue to speak positively of him:

"In 1969, I was Sen. Kerry's gun mate atop of the Swift boat in Vietnam. And I just wanted to let everyone know that, contrary to all the rumors that you might hear from the other side, Sen. Kerry's blood is red, not blue. I know, I've seen it.

"If it weren't for Sen. John Kerry, on the 28th of February 1969, the day he won the Silver Star . . . you and I would not be having this conversation. My name would be on a long, black wall in Washington, D.C. I saw this man save my life."3

— Fred Short

"I can still see him now, standing in the doorway of the pilothouse, firing his M-16, shouting orders through the smoke and chaos . . . Even wounded, or confronting sights no man should ever have to see, he never lost his cool.

I had to sit on my hands [after a firefight], I was shaking so hard . . . He went to every man on that boat and put his arm around them and asked them how they're doing. I've never had an officer do that before or since. That's the mettle of the man, John Kerry."3

— David Alston

"What I saw back then [in Vietnam] was a guy with genuine caring and leadership ability who was aggressive when he had to be. What I see now is a guy who's not afraid to tackle tough issues. And he knows what the consequences are of putting people's kids in harm's way."2

— James Wasser
Many of Kerry's Vietnam commanders and fellow officers also continue to speak positively of him:

Navy records, fitness reports by Kerry's commanders and scores of interviews with Swift boat officers and crewmen depict a model officer who fought aggressively in river ambushes and won the respect of many of his crewmates and commanders, even as his doubts about the war grew.

"I don't like what he said after the war," said Adrian Lonsdale, who commanded Kerry for three months in 1969. "But he was a good naval officer."2


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I don't know what conclusions you can draw about someone's ability to lead from their combat experience, but John's service was commendable," said James J. Galvin, a former Swift boat officer . . . "He played by the same rules we all did."1
How well all of these men knew John Kerry is questionable, and discrepancies between how some of them described Kerry thirty-five years ago and how they describe him today suggest that their opinions are largely based upon political differences rather than objective assessments of Kerry's military record. For example, Rear Admiral Roy Hoffman is quoted above, yet the Los Angeles Times reported:

. . . Hoffman and Kerry had few direct dealings in Vietnam. A Los Angeles Times examination of Navy archives found that Hoffman praised Kerry's performance in cabled messages after several river skirmishes.1

[glockmail]

Why won't Kerry release his medical records?

[glockmail]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp

here is snopes on the matter and it will tell you that only one of the men who served with Kerry talked dirt on him.

ALL of the ohters who actually served with him supported his bid for presidency and backed the military record which was released.

Its a sad time when a returning vet has to have his brave service destroyed for political reasons.

......

The important point to note here is that this piece presents only one side of the story: ...... From your source, coming back to bite you in the ass once again.

[truthmatters]

TOTAL BULLSHIT. The fact that Gaffer tells the truth about Kerry PROVES that he has respect for REAL SOLDIERS who respect the job.

You chose to call all the men Kerry served with(except one )liars for political reasons?

[truthmatters]

From your source, coming back to bite you in the ass once again.


And did you note what part of the snopes articel that refered to?

It said that about the unfounded swift boaters remarks and said there wad no way to find any of it true because it was nothing more than oppinion.

[glockmail]

You chose to call all the men Kerry served with(except one )liars for political reasons? Perhaps you could point out where I made that accusation. :poke: My prediction: another direct challenge from me to you will go unanswered.

Of course, Kerry can clear all this up by releasing his medical records to the public. He had the chance to do so in the 2004 election. Since he lost by a few thousand votes it would have made up the difference easily. What possible reason would he have for not disclosing this? It cost him the presidency, a goal he's had for decades He had every incentive to set the record straight and chose not to do so.

In contrast Bush released all his records after he won the election, and had nothing to gain.

[glockmail]

And did you note what part of the snopes articel that refered to?

It said that about the unfounded swift boaters remarks and said there wad no way to find any of it true because it was nothing more than oppinion.
Exactly. There are two sides of the story, which is why we use facts in evidence to make a decision on which side is right. Kerry choses to hide evidence that could clear this all up, so any reasonable person would judge that such evidence does not support his claim.

[truthmatters]

Perhaps you could point out where I made that accusation. :poke: My prediction: another direct challenge from me to you will go unanswered.

Of course, Kerry can clear all this up by releasing his medical records to the public. He had the chance to do so in the 2004 election. Since he lost by a few thousand votes it would have made up the difference easily. What possible reason would he have for not disclosing this? It cost him the presidency, a goal he's had for decades He had every incentive to set the record straight and chose not to do so.

In contrast Bush released all his records after he won the election, and had nothing to gain.


Well what these SV claim as what Kerry did is in direct opposition to all the guys that Kerry served with (except one) so either the one guy is lying or all the other guys Kerry served with , his superior officers, the military record are all lying.

I choose to believe the record ,his men who were there and the superiors who put him in for the medals instead of one guy.

[glockmail]

Well what these SV claim as what Kerry did is in direct opposition to all the guys that Kerry served with (except one) so either the one guy is lying or all the other guys Kerry served with , his superior officers, the military record are all lying.

I choose to believe the record ,his men who were there and the superiors who put him in for the medals instead of one guy.

I see my cahllenge went unanswered as predicted. You also choose to ignore the fact thet Kerry can clear this up very easily.

[truthmatters]

http://tinyurl.com/7xpe8


this is a PDF release of a puplic statement by Mr Gardners former employer.

In it they defend themnselves from a claim he made that they fired him for speaking out about Kerry.

They laid him off with other workers at the very same time ad he went on Fox TV and asked for people to send him money.

He never sued for wrongful firing.

You see it is very likely the man is a liar and the other soldiers are telling the truth.

Ask yourself why you choose to belive him instead of the Military record , all the other men Kerry served with him and the officers who recomended him for medals?

Oh and BTW I did answer your question about his medical records and it is because you dont need his medical records all you need is all the other records(like the combat records) which prove Kerry desreved his medals.

Why do you want to snoop into his colonoscopy anyway?

[Gaffer]

kerry is not a returning vet. He's been back for almost 40 years. He used three months of combat service to get himself elected to the senate and tried to use it for the presidency. By releasing the medical records it would show that he did not earn three purple hearts. He used that to get the hell out of Vietnam as fast as he could then played up the hero image.

He blew up a sandpan and shot a kid in the back who had fired an M-79 round at his boat, as the kid was running away. As an officer and boat commander he was able to get medals for valor that he didn't deserve. That happened a lot in the officer ranks. Medals were important for promotion.

He met with North Vietnamese officials in paris and told bold faced lies to a congressional committee. He's scum.

[glockmail]

http://tinyurl.com/7xpe8


this is a PDF release of a puplic statement by Mr Gardners former employer.

In it they defend themnselves from a claim he made that they fired him for speaking out about Kerry.

They laid him off with other workers at the very same time ad he went on Fox TV and asked for people to send him money.

He never sued for wrongful firing.

You see it is very likely the man is a liar and the other soldiers are telling the truth.

Ask yourself why you choose to belive him instead of the Military record , all the other men Kerry served with him and the officers who recomended him for medals?

Oh and BTW I did answer your question about his medical records and it is because you dont need his medical records all you need is all the other records(like the combat records) which prove Kerry desreved his medals.

Why do you want to snoop into his colonoscopy anyway?

His records wouldn't have a colon test unless he had a problem down there, a rarety among young men and as such would likely have gotten him dischraged due to medical reasons.

Again, all he has to so is release all his records to the public, just like Bush did. They will either confirm or deny the combat records.

[Gaffer]

There were 300 men in the swift boat unit kerry was assigned too. A half dozen stood by kerry. The rest all said he was lying.

[glockmail]

TM claims it was just one.

[Gaffer]

TM claims it was just one.

TM needs to do more research.

[darin]

TM is naive. Probably VERY VERY Young.

[truthmatters]

Its not my claim its the facts and snopes gives lots of quotes from the guys who actually served wtih him.
Gardner was the ONLY one who talked shit about him but Gardner also lied on TV to get people to send him money too.




http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp

here is snopes on the matter and it will tell you that only one of the men who served with Kerry talked dirt on him.

ALL of the ohters who actually served with him supported his bid for presidency and backed the military record which was released.

Its a sad time when a returning vet has to have his brave service destroyed for political reasons.



Origins: John Kerry's service in Vietnam as an officer in command of a Swift boat and his subsequent activities as an anti-war protester have engendered a good deal of controversy, especially among those who also served in Vietnam. Many Vietnam veterans were angered by Kerry's anti-war stance after he returned to the U.S., viewing his anti-war activities — particularly his testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971 — as unfairly and undeservedly smearing the reputations of all who served in Vietnam.

That said, the piece quoted above, in which a variety of veterans offer their views of John Kerry, isn't really something that can evaluated as "true" or "false." It's true that the men named do exist, that they served in Vietnam, and that they made the statements attributed to them, but the substance of most of these quotes is an expression of opinion, not something objectively classifiable as right or wrong.

The important point to note here is that this piece presents only one side of the story:


Although the men quoted above are often identified as "John Kerry's shipmates," only one of them, Steven Gardner, actually served under Lt. Kerry's command on a Swift boat. The other men who served under Kerry's command continue to speak positively of him:

"In 1969, I was Sen. Kerry's gun mate atop of the Swift boat in Vietnam. And I just wanted to let everyone know that, contrary to all the rumors that you might hear from the other side, Sen. Kerry's blood is red, not blue. I know, I've seen it.

"If it weren't for Sen. John Kerry, on the 28th of February 1969, the day he won the Silver Star . . . you and I would not be having this conversation. My name would be on a long, black wall in Washington, D.C. I saw this man save my life."3

— Fred Short

"I can still see him now, standing in the doorway of the pilothouse, firing his M-16, shouting orders through the smoke and chaos . . . Even wounded, or confronting sights no man should ever have to see, he never lost his cool.

I had to sit on my hands [after a firefight], I was shaking so hard . . . He went to every man on that boat and put his arm around them and asked them how they're doing. I've never had an officer do that before or since. That's the mettle of the man, John Kerry."3

— David Alston

"What I saw back then [in Vietnam] was a guy with genuine caring and leadership ability who was aggressive when he had to be. What I see now is a guy who's not afraid to tackle tough issues. And he knows what the consequences are of putting people's kids in harm's way."2

— James Wasser
Many of Kerry's Vietnam commanders and fellow officers also continue to speak positively of him:

Navy records, fitness reports by Kerry's commanders and scores of interviews with Swift boat officers and crewmen depict a model officer who fought aggressively in river ambushes and won the respect of many of his crewmates and commanders, even as his doubts about the war grew.

"I don't like what he said after the war," said Adrian Lonsdale, who commanded Kerry for three months in 1969. "But he was a good naval officer."2


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I don't know what conclusions you can draw about someone's ability to lead from their combat experience, but John's service was commendable," said James J. Galvin, a former Swift boat officer . . . "He played by the same rules we all did."1
How well all of these men knew John Kerry is questionable, and discrepancies between how some of them described Kerry thirty-five years ago and how they describe him today suggest that their opinions are largely based upon political differences rather than objective assessments of Kerry's military record. For example, Rear Admiral Roy Hoffman is quoted above, yet the Los Angeles Times reported:

. . . Hoffman and Kerry had few direct dealings in Vietnam. A Los Angeles Times examination of Navy archives found that Hoffman praised Kerry's performance in cabled messages after several river skirmishes.1

[Gaffer]

You made that post already. what is the purpose of repeating it?

[truthmatters]

You made that post already. what is the purpose of repeating it?

I thought you missed it from the ohter page so I brought it to where you could see it.

[truthmatters]

There were 300 men in the swift boat unit kerry was assigned too. A half dozen stood by kerry. The rest all said he was lying.


I was trying to correct you incorrect assumptions of what the facts were.

The people who were actually there whne he earned his medals all backed him except one who also lied on TV saying he was fired when he was actually laid off and then asked for people to send him money.

[Gaffer]

I thought you missed it from the ohter page so I brought it to where you could see it.

I read it. I also read it a long time ago when it was first reported. Like I said there were 300 men in kerry's unit. Only the few directly assigned to his boat backed him up on his story. One didn't and the other 300 members of the unit said he was a liar. Who are you going to believe? a few guys who all have something to gain by his being elected or 300 that had nothing to gain either way.

The reason he won't release his medical records is because they would show what treatment he was given for his "three" wounds. Two of which definitely did not warrant a purple heart.

I haven't even touched on his claim he was in cambodia on christmas 1968 under orders from president Nixon, when Nixon was not president until the following January. And it was proved that kerrys boat was at the base on that Christmas. He's a phony and a disgrace.

[truthmatters]

I read it. I also read it a long time ago when it was first reported. Like I said there were 300 men in kerry's unit. Only the few directly assigned to his boat backed him up on his story. One didn't and the other 300 members of the unit said he was a liar. Who are you going to believe? a few guys who all have something to gain by his being elected or 300 that had nothing to gain either way.

The reason he won't release his medical records is because they would show what treatment he was given for his "three" wounds. Two of which definitely did not warrant a purple heart.

I haven't even touched on his claim he was in cambodia on christmas 1968 under orders from president Nixon, when Nixon was not president until the following January. And it was proved that kerrys boat was at the base on that Christmas. He's a phony and a disgrace.

The men who served with him and were with him when he he performed the acts that got him the medals all support him.

The swift boat people are all just republicans who can tie themselfs in some way to the vietnam war and most never even met Kerry.

If you wish to believe lies over Military records, commnading officers and the people who were actually there that is your choice but it is a partisan one.

No one has to release their medical records.

If you think they wounds did not deserve medals then why are you willing to believe a claim with NO proof it is real?

[truthmatters]

There were people like his Division Commander Grant Hibbard, who wrote positive evaluations of Kerry, and Commander George Elliott, who submitted Kerry for a Silver Star. SBVT says that 16 officers who served with Kerry in Coastal Division 11 as members. SBVT's lied by saying that Kerry's "entire chain of command" were part of the group Joseph Streuli, (former commander of Coastal Division 130) , Art Price (former commander CTF 116 )who is described in the book as part of Kerry's chain of command never were part of the group


The swift Vets were caught in lies like this and you choose to believe them over officail records ....WHY?????

[Abbey Marie]

...
Its a sad time when a returning vet has to have his brave service destroyed for political reasons.
...


You mean like that Marine who got in all sorts of trouble by the lib press for shooting an insurgent in Fallujah on the ground who wasn't "dead yet"? That kind of sad partisan trashing of a brave soldier?

[Gaffer]

The men who served with him and were with him when he he performed the acts that got him the medals all support him.

The swift boat people are all just republicans who can tie themselfs in some way to the vietnam war and most never even met Kerry.

If you wish to believe lies over Military records, commnading officers and the people who were actually there that is your choice but it is a partisan one.

No one has to release their medical records.

If you think they wounds did not deserve medals then why are you willing to believe a claim with NO proof it is real?

The swift boats worked in groups. He worked with all the other members of his unit. They were involved in the same actions he was. They were not just a bunch of republicans out to get him. They were former members of the same unit. They worked in groups patrolling the rivers.

You have no clue how easy it is for an officer to doctor his records and reports and put himself in for medals. I don't despise him for partisan reasons I personally despise him. He's a phony.

As far as I'm concerned, no medical records means no proof he deserved the medals. kerry is a liar, he was caught lying repeatedly.

[Abbey Marie]

Defending this John Kerry as a solider?

"You know, education, if you make the most of it, if you study hard and you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, uh, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.”

Puh-leeze.

[Gaffer]

There were people like his Division Commander Grant Hibbard, who wrote positive evaluations of Kerry, and Commander George Elliott, who submitted Kerry for a Silver Star. SBVT says that 16 officers who served with Kerry in Coastal Division 11 as members. SBVT's lied by saying that Kerry's "entire chain of command" were part of the group Joseph Streuli, (former commander of Coastal Division 130) , Art Price (former commander CTF 116 )who is described in the book as part of Kerry's chain of command never were part of the group


The swift Vets were caught in lies like this and you choose to believe them over officail records ....WHY?????

That's all from kerry's book which is a lie. The Swift Boat Vets all gave the real facts. They are all Vets too. They said kerry's story's weren't true. So who to believe. A whole bunch of vets with nothing to gain from coming out and saying something or a few with federal jobs and contracts to gain. hmmmmm tough choice huh.

[Gaffer]

Also, kerry was a sailor, not a soldier. Though there were soldiers patrolled the rivers on boats as well. They were called River Rats.

[gabosaurus]

How did a thread about Ted Nugent somehow become a thread about John Kerry?
Other than the fact that both are blowhards that are no longer relevant.

[Gaffer]

How did a thread about Ted Nugent somehow become a thread about John Kerry?
Other than the fact that both are blowhards that are no longer relevant.

ask TM he/she started it.

[gabosaurus]

So who is perpetuating it? Get back on topic or start a different thread. We do have a "conspiracy theory" forum for your Kerry allegations.

[Pale Rider]

How did a thread about Ted Nugent somehow become a thread about John Kerry?
Other than the fact that both are blowhards that are no longer relevant.

NO SHIT!