End "botched" brexit, labour's corbyn calls on britain to back his vision

[Gunny]

LONDON - British opposition leader, Jeremy Corbyn will call on the government on Tuesday to back his vision for a new customs union with the European Union to avoid a "botched" Brexit leaving the country "in hock to Donald Trump."

Unveiling a Labour Party campaign to boost manufacturing and keep public contracts in Britain, Corbyn will also increase the pressure on Prime Minister Theresa May over her Brexit plans by suggesting she back his vision of "a brand new customs union."

May is struggling to sell what she calls her business-friendly Brexit to not only the competing factions in her governing Conservative Party but also across Britain just over eight months before the country is due to leave in March.

But Corbyn also faces dissent in his party, with many Labour lawmakers and members calling for him to back a second referendum on any deal and support keeping the closest possible ties with the EU by staying in its single market and customs union.

"Theresa May and her warring cabinet should think again, even at this late stage, and reconsider the option of negotiating a brand new customs union," Corbyn will tell the EEF manufacturers' organization in the city of Birmingham.

"A botched (https://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/End-botched-Brexit-Labours-Corbyn-calls-on-Britain-to-back-his-vision-563244#)...Brexit will sell our manufacturers short with the fantasy of a free trading buccaneering future, which in reality would be a nightmare of chlorinated chicken, public services sold to multinational companies (https://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/End-botched-Brexit-Labours-Corbyn-calls-on-Britain-to-back-his-vision-563244#) and our country in hock to Donald Trump," he will say, according to excerpts of his speech.

May has often said she wants to forge a free trade agreement (https://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/End-botched-Brexit-Labours-Corbyn-calls-on-Britain-to-back-his-vision-563244#) with U.S. President Donald Trump after Brexit, but some lawmakers fear the government could open the door to imports of U.S. beef that contains growth hormones (https://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/End-botched-Brexit-Labours-Corbyn-calls-on-Britain-to-back-his-vision-563244#), chicken washed in chlorinated water and genetically modified organisms.

The government has frequently said it will not lower its standards, but with its Brexit plans opposed by many in Britain, Corbyn senses his vision may find more support.

No election is due in Britain until 2022 but Labour is preparing for a vote, aware that the Conservatives are increasingly at war with each other over Brexit.

Returning to his leftist vision for Britain, Corbyn will also use his speech to renew (https://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/End-botched-Brexit-Labours-Corbyn-calls-on-Britain-to-back-his-vision-563244#) Labour's pledge that if in power, the party would "reprogramme" the economy to support manufacturing and bring back "good jobs and industry."

"Labour is determined to see public contracts provide public benefit, using our money to nurture and grow our industries, our people and to expand our tax base," he will say.

"The next Labour government will bring contracts back in-house ... And we will use the huge weight of the government's purchasing power to support our workers and industries."

https://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/End-botched-Brexit-Labours-Corbyn-calls-on-Britain-to-back-his-vision-563244

I'm just guessing Drummond but this guy Corbyn sounds like a real pain in the butt. So do Brits (the people) want to leave the EU, or not? I'm confused. I thought I saw where May was dragging out Brexit, but this article and Corbyn guy sound like she's behind it and Labour wants to stay attached to the umbilical cord.

Who are the good guys and who are the bad guys?

[Drummond]

https://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/End-botched-Brexit-Labours-Corbyn-calls-on-Britain-to-back-his-vision-563244

I'm just guessing @Drummond (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=2287) but this guy Corbyn sounds like a real pain in the butt. So do Brits (the people) want to leave the EU, or not? I'm confused. I thought I saw where May was dragging out Brexit, but this article and Corbyn guy sound like she's behind it and Labour wants to stay attached to the umbilical cord.

Who are the good guys and who are the bad guys?
@Gunny (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=30) ... Sorry for the delay in replying ... have only now just seen this.

Corbyn is a political dinosaur. You have to remember that the UK has seen full-blown Socialism govern it, in times past .. and a very long time ago. When Blair reformed the Labour Party into 'New Labour', it was to make Labour electable, by appearing far more moderate.

Corbyn's a throwback to the worst of the pre-Blair era, promising hardline Socialism, including a mass State Nationalisation programme. Because it's been so long since we've seen any of that, our youth in particular see Corbyn's ideas as 'new and fresh', and not old and discredited. We are definitely in danger of his Socialism making a big comeback.

On the EU ... it's complicated. Labour is taking a broadly pro-Brexit line (while sniping at everything we do to help secure it !). But they want us to hold on to all the perks possible, while we leave (& as your article indicates). In that sense, they're living in cloud cuckooland. The EU has taken the opposite line throughout.

Corbyn's thought to be privately anti-EU, but, many of his people are not. They begrudgingly fall in line with the Referendum vote to leave (with notable exceptions ... Corbyn has a rebel contingent to worry about).

The 'invoking of Article 50' was the procedural starting-point of Brexit. Here's how the Parliamentary vote on doing so, went at the time ....

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/761955/Article-50-list-MPs-voted-against-Brexit-bill-SNP-Labour


A GRAND total of 114 MPs voted against the Government's bill to trigger Article 50 despite the British public voting overwhelmingly in favour of them backing it.

In total, 47 Labour MPs rebelled against Jeremy Corbyn's three line whip to vote in favour of the bill, 50 SNP members voted to frustrate the bill, seven Liberal Democrats, including Nick Clegg and Tim Farron and one Conservative, Ken Clarke.

As for EU negotiations ... they've been beset by the EU's refusal to make progress. They've stalled, time and again (the Irish border is a current stumbling block). They even wanted to charge us a whopping 100 billion Euros as a 'divorce bill', before they'd even speak to us !!

We've knocked them down to 40 billion, and we're refusing to pay anything until negotiations are complete. A popular brand of thinking here is that if we leave the EU minus a deal, then, we don't pay a penny of it.

Labour hates the idea of a no-deal Brexit, and will of course blame the Conservatives if that's what happens.

It's my belief that the EU is, and has always been, determined to make negotiations as tough as possible. They want to make an example of us, telling their remaining Member States ... 'Look. See how difficult this all is. Better not to ever let yourself in for any of that yourselves. Stay in the Club. Or Else.'

52% of voters voted to leave. 48% voted to remain. The 'Remainers' have been busy, since the vote, coming up with 'Armaggeddon' scenarios for our future economic viability, should we leave. They're claiming that the 'Leave' vote was misled into thinking that getting out was workable, when, according to the Remainers, we'll suffer enormous hardships because of it .... it's on that basis that some people are now insisting we hold a second Referendum !

Such a Referendum would, of course, take a long time to arrange, and mean we can't finally agree to a thing until any vote comes through (.. and this is all meant to be finalised by March 2019 !!). In other words, it's designed to wreck everything.

[Noir]

As for EU negotiations ... they've been beset by the EU's refusal to make progress. They've stalled, time and again (the Irish border is a current stumbling block).


Can you cite a proposal for the boarder that was made by the British government that is accepted by the Northern Irish people?

[Drummond]

Can you cite a proposal for the boarder that was made by the British government that is accepted by the Northern Irish people?

You're referring to someone attending a boarding school ?

My guess - you're thinking of the N. Ireland / Southern Ireland BORDER ...

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/most-people-in-northern-ireland-dont-want-border-poll-prime-minister-theresa-may-36909399.html


Prime Minister Theresa May has said the circumstances for which to call a border poll don't exist as most people in Northern Ireland don't want one.
She was reacting after a Times report which claimed she expressed doubt Northern Ireland would remain within the union after such a poll amid the mounting issues surrounding Brexit.

The Good Friday Agreement states there should be a border poll if the Secretary of State feels the majority would vote for unification.

Asked if the she was confident unionists would win an Irish border poll if it came to it, the Prime Minister’s official spokesperson said: “The Government steadfastly supports the Belfast agreement.

"It remains the Northern Ireland Secretary’s view that a majority of people in Northern Ireland continue to support the current political settlement, and that the circumstances requiring a border poll are not satisfied.”

You live in Northern Ireland, and I don't. Perhaps you can cite your evidence of malcontent with the Government's actions, which matches your claim of a majority who are unhappy with the status quo, along with why that is ?

While you're at it ... please cite your evidence that the Brexit terms currently 'out there' aren't representative of Northern Ireland anyway ... given that N Ireland was a part of the total Brexit vote, and is as tied into it as are other parts of the UK.

[Noir]

The British government do not currently have a plan for the border, all they have said is they don’t want a ‘hard border’

Zero explanation of how they think trade will work, or anything else for that matter.

If you consider that a fault of the EU fair enough, but as far as I see it, there has been no proposal submitted to the EU, or the people of Northern Ireland.

[Drummond]

The British government do not currently have a plan for the border, all they have said is they don’t want a ‘hard border’

Zero explanation of how they think trade will work, or anything else for that matter.

If you consider that a fault of the EU fair enough, but as far as I see it, there has been no proposal submitted to the EU, or the people of Northern Ireland.

I do see the status quo as being the fault of the EU.

The UK Government doesn't want a hard border. Until now, neither has southern Ireland. It's the EU which insists upon saying that current arrangements aren't good enough, as one side of the border will be EU territory and the other won't be.

It's all a matter of perception, and the EU's intransigence. If the will existed on the EU side to not see this as a problem, then I'm sure it needn't be one.

However, they insist upon being difficult. And so, here we are ... in an EU-manufactured limbo.

Just one of several other spanners the EU has been throwing our way, rather than helpfully and usefully NEGOTIATING ...

[Noir]

You are aware that the DUP have been very clear that they want a hard border?

[Drummond]

You are aware that the DUP have been very clear that they want a hard border?

They are very welcome to explain that to the EU's negotiating team, Noir. I for one would imagine that the EU would be happy with that.

But they might want to have explained to them the DUP's turnaround on the issue !

Explain THIS, Noir ...

https://sluggerotoole.com/2017/12/08/polling-matters-what-do-the-dup-want/


Myself and Kieran Pedley chunking through the various polls and issues around the DUP and Brexit. What we didn’t anticipate was the very swift conclusion of Phase 1 talks.

I’ve outlined three things they want: a frictionless border; best possible trade deal with Europe (a key aid to the first); and the U.K. (including NI) to be free to strike its own trade deals particularly with the developing world outwith the EU.

This last is why the argument over terms is important going into Phase Two talks which will in the end dictate the real terms of the final agreement, over which Ireland will play little in the way of a direct role.

The DUP are committed to Brexit, and one that will deepen British sovereignty in Northern Ireland. But Arlene Foster’s own home constituency is commercially sensitive to any barriers.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-northern-ireland-border-republic-dup-arlene-foster-theresa-may-david-davis-eu-a8093171.html


What does the DUP want?

While the DUP wishes to avoid a hard border .....

It's the EU that's being difficult. Noir, if / when you reply, please explain why the Left keeps bending over backwards to support the EU in what it says and does !!

[Noir]

The DUPs turnaround on the issue is in realisation that a frictionless border will result in a step towards Northern Ireland uniting with Ireland, and separating from the United Kingdom.

So I put it to you that the Conservative Party and the DUP have not agreed a proposal which they both agree on to submit to the EU, do you disagree with that? And if so what proposal has been made?

[Drummond]

The DUPs turnaround on the issue is in realisation that a frictionless border will result in a step towards Northern Ireland uniting with Ireland, and separating from the United Kingdom.

So I put it to you that the Conservative Party and the DUP have not agreed a proposal which they both agree on to submit to the EU, do you disagree with that? And if so what proposal has been made?

I note a certain evasiveness in your replies.

For example: I asked, previously ...


Perhaps you can cite your evidence of malcontent with the Government's actions, which matches your claim of a majority who are unhappy with the status quo, along with why that is ?

While you're at it ... please cite your evidence that the Brexit terms currently 'out there' aren't representative of Northern Ireland anyway ... given that N Ireland was a part of the total Brexit vote, and is as tied into it as are other parts of the UK.

Your answer, now, is ... ?

You have now said:


You are aware that the DUP have been very clear that they want a hard border?

I came back with evidence that there is no such 'clarity'. Quite the opposite. The DUP's position has been the opposite, as I've shown you.

Please explain.

Your latest reply suggests that the DUP and the Conservatives are currently (& newly ?) in sharp disagreement on the issue of a 'hard' v 'frictionless' border. I'd like to see your evidence for that.

In the meantime, you should consider -- Northern Ireland was a component part of voting for or against Brexit, back on 23rd June 2016. The result of that Referendum - a distinct majority for leaving the EU - therefore equally represents all parts of the UK.

When the Conservative Government represents Brexit in so-called 'talks' with the EU, they represents all parts of the UK equally, without favouring one corner of it over another. The ONE overall voting outcome, is the ONE being heeded. So, tell me .. is the DUP demanding special status for Northern Ireland, and for the terms under which they voted to be belatedly re-written ? If 'YES' ... please supply your evidence.

[Noir]

Of course the DUP are demanding special status for Northern Ireland, and they’re getting it because Mays government is being propped up by them.

If it were not for the Conservatives being tied to the DUP I’ve little doubt we would already have in place plans for a frictionless border, with the actual customs border being between the Irish Sea and Britain.

This is the last thing the DUP want, and indeed they would rather have the negotiations completely collapse than have that kind of arrangement.

As detailed here by Donaldson
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/no-deal-better-than-border-in-irish-sea-says-dups-donaldson-37121284.html

[Drummond]

Of course the DUP are demanding special status for Northern Ireland, and they’re getting it because Mays government is being propped up by them.

If it were not for the Conservatives being tied to the DUP I’ve little doubt we would already have in place plans for a frictionless border, with the actual customs border being between the Irish Sea and Britain.

This is the last thing the DUP want, and indeed they would rather have the negotiations completely collapse than have that kind of arrangement.

As detailed here by Donaldson
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/no-deal-better-than-border-in-irish-sea-says-dups-donaldson-37121284.html

I see that you're avoiding giving direct answers to my questions. The DUP preferring us to crash out of the EU is not a point that directly answers me, nor is your point (well known and understood) that the DUP is propping up the Conservative Government's power-base in Parliament.

What's this about an 'Irish Sea border' ? Are you saying that there's no issue involved about a land border ? Is there nowhere within Ireland where the North meets the South, creating a territorial division one would consider appropriate for a border ?

NO. You're deliberately confusing issues. The DUP is on record, as I've proved, in wanting a frictionless border between NORTH and SOUTH ... in Ireland. That is entirely separate, from (I quote from the beginning of your article ..) ..


Northern Ireland would be better off with a hard Brexit than being separated from the UK by a border down the Irish Sea

[Noir]

The DUP were onboard with having a frictionless border until they realised that meant a there would need to be a sea-border, which for them is the worst case scenario.

I don’t understand how you can believe that the DUP want both a frictionless border *and* no sea border.

There is no compromise or middle ground with the DUP, and May doesn’t have the luxury of ignoring them.

[Drummond]

The DUP were onboard with having a frictionless border until they realised that meant a there would need to be a sea-border, which for them is the worst case scenario.

I don’t understand how you can believe that the DUP want both a frictionless border *and* no sea border.

There is no compromise or middle ground with the DUP, and May doesn’t have the luxury of ignoring them.

Evidence I'd found showed me that they were in favour of a frictionless border. Look again at what I've posted. Or do I need to REpost ??

The EU is principally concerned with the LAND border between North and South (obviously, I'd have thought).

Please, keep on track. Thank you.

[Noir]

They WERE in favour of a frictionless border UNTIL it became clear that a frictionless border meant there would be a sea-border, it’s as simple as that.

Because it’s one or the other. Frictionless or Sea, there can’t be neither, and the DUPs current position is land border or collapse the talks.

[Drummond]

They WERE in favour of a frictionless border UNTIL it became clear that a frictionless border meant there would be a sea-border, it’s as simple as that.

Because it’s one or the other. Frictionless or Sea, there can’t be neither, and the DUPs current position is land border or collapse the talks.

I see.

Nonetheless, the real problem is still emanating from the EU. The southern Irish side, which is remaining within the EU, is providing the EU with their latest spanner to wield at talk progress.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/28/dublin-pushes-irish-sea-new-border-uk-brexit/


Northern Irish MPs have vowed to fight any bid to make the Irish Sea the post-Brexit border with the United Kingdom amid reports that Dublin believes proposals to create a frictionless land border are unworkable.
Leo Varadkar, the Irish prime minister, reportedly wants the Irish Sea to be made the border with customs checks moved to ports and airports.

But Sir Jeffrey Donaldson, a senior Democratic Unionist MP, said there was “no way” his party would sign off on the plan amid concerns that it would create a barrier between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.

Your quarrel is not with the UK side, but the EU side. It's southern Ireland who are creating the basis for this rift.

[Noir]

A frictionless land boarder with no sea border is unworkable.

[Drummond]

A frictionless land boarder with no sea border is unworkable.

Oh, I dunno. How many boarding schools (frictionless or otherwise) need sea borders ?

It's as workable as others choose to see it to be. Southern Ireland have no hard border with the North as it is, nor of course any sea border. But, both the North and the South co-operate, viably, just fine under current arrangements.

Suddenly, though, it's all a big problem ....

This all emanates from the South. That's to say, FROM THE EU SIDE. It's their side that suddenly decided it wants to perceive a 'big problem'. As my earlier link said ...


Leo Varadkar, the Irish prime minister, reportedly wants the Irish Sea to be made the border with customs checks moved to ports and airports.

By the way, with all this going on, what happens about the land border ? Does it, mysteriously, 'not matter quite as much' ?

[Noir]

Suddenly, though, it's all a big problem ....

Yeah you’re right, how strange that the border should suddenly be a problem, for no reason at all...

Oh no, wait! We’re leaving the EU, maybe that has something to do with it?!!

[Drummond]

Yeah you’re right, how strange that the border should suddenly be a problem, for no reason at all...

Oh no, wait! We’re leaving the EU, maybe that has something to do with it?!!

You've managed to post something I can completely agree with, Noir.

I'd guess the same. I really DO think that our leaving the EU has had something to do with it.

.. Yep ...

The EU bureaucracy, all those within it lusting for power over its Member States, absolutely hate that we've had the insufferable gall to 'quit the club'. Hence, the stalling tactics we've had from the EU side.

This 'sea border / land border' issue is the latest. The EU, to teach everybody a lesson, has latched on to this as their latest ploy to make our leaving as problematic as possible. The lesson to us is one of bloody-minded revenge, and a perpetual 'knuckle under to us, or regret it' agenda. The lesson to others is to show everybody ever tempted to leave, just how much of an almighty pain it'll be to ever attempt it.

[Noir]

Answer me this Drummond, do the U.K. want a sea border or a land border?

[Drummond]

Answer me this Drummond, do the U.K. want a sea border or a land border?

You enjoy not answering my own questions, but you still want me to answer yours ?

In answering ... if I describe 'what the UK wants' .... as Northern Ireland is part of the UK, do you want me to answer for them, too ?

[Noir]

Well as Northern Ireland is part of the U.K. it would be expected that the plan for Northern Ireland and the rest of the U.K. are the same, no?

[Drummond]

Well as Northern Ireland is part of the U.K. it would be expected that the plan for Northern Ireland and the rest of the U.K. are the same, no?

Tell it to the EU. For some 'unfathomable' reason, everyone's concentrating on the N Ireland / Southern Ireland question. Though .. perhaps that's because of the LAND border, and its future .. ?

Anyway ... I understand this has its roots in the 'Common Travel Area'. Before this EU-inspired mess, everyone was happy with the arrangement: a soft border between North and South, with acceptance of (as the name suggests) common travel between each (this also included such territories as the Isle of Man, and the Channel Islands).

All of this existed before the EU, but the formation of the EU changed nothing. Despite EU bureaucracy, despite the EU statuses of both the UK and southern Ireland, this arrangement remained in force, unchanged.

Ah, but, EU 'interests' now intrude -- because the EU has chosen it that way. Southern Ireland is dancing to their tune, seeing a sudden 'need' for distinct border statuses and differences. The EU, because of Brexit, has decided to make it as much of a live issue as possible.

The UK Government side (Westminster) would ideally want the old arrangement preserved. The EU, surprise surprise, suddenly thinks that's not good enough. Southern Ireland, a continuing EU territory, is making pro-EU noises. And, here we are. With the question forced to become an issue requiring special measures ...

The EU defends its position by saying that it cannot remain reliant on non-EU authorities to correctly govern border considerations (.. all of a sudden). It wants its own people preserving its own interests, actively and dynamically, on any EU border.

So, they're kicking up a stink about it. 'Of course' they are. They've been stalling progress on talks throughout the entire Brexit process.

You say in one of your posts:


They WERE in favour of a frictionless border UNTIL it became clear that a frictionless border meant there would be a sea-border
.. because the EU sees the need for EU administration of such a border.

So, they care. Suddenly.

Anyway ... thanks to all these shenanigans, the UK Government has been obliged to come up with a proposal designed to address an inflated issue. See:

https://www.dw.com/en/brexit-uk-publishes-irish-border-backstop-proposal-eu-officials-skeptical/a-44115747


British Prime Minister Theresa May's s fall-back plan would see it remain temporarily aligned with EU customs rules after Brexit until a permanent new trade agreement — that avoids a physical border between Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland — is found.


What are the UK's conditions?

Under the UK's backstop proposal:

Both the British mainland and Northern Ireland would remain aligned with the EU customs union until 2021 "at the latest" — nearly three years after the UK's withdrawal from the EU in March 2019 and a year after the conclusion of a 21-month transition phase in December 2020.

However, the backstop plan would only come into effect and remain in force as long as there were no wider trade deal in place that resolves the Irish border question. London said it expects to finalize a working withdrawal deal by December 2021.

The UK would be allowed to sign its own free trade agreements with other nations following the transition phase, and implement new trade rules, provided they don't infringe on the temporary customs agreement.

So, we remain aligned to the EU's customs union, under that plan.

Brexiteers - as you'd expect - don't much like this contining link with the EU. Brexit should MEAN Brexit.

They have a point !

[Drummond]

A further post, for Noir ...

https://www.cityam.com/287241/michel-barnier-backstop-cannot-applied-whole-uk


The EU's chief negotiator has rejected a major component of the UK's proposal around a temporary customs arrangement, saying it cannot apply to the whole of the UK.

Speaking from Brussels this afternoon Michel Barnier said: "Let me be clear - our backstop cannot be applied to the whole of the UK... What is feasible for a territory the size of Northern Ireland is not feasible for a territory the size of the United Kingdom."

Barnier's position means the likelihood of a border down the Irish sea - with Northern Ireland remaining in the customs union while the rest of the United Kingdom is outside it - has not gone away, despite UK Prime Minister Theresa May categorically rejecting it as unacceptable.

You'll note how the EU insists upon taking decisions which we in the UK cannot accept. This sea border idea is one Barnier is trying to keep alive.

[Noir]

The issue is not inflated, it’s really rather important.

Sea border or land border. The U.K. doesn’t know which one it wants, and it’s I don’t think you can blame the EU for ‘stalling’ when the U.K. isn’t saying which it wants.

[Drummond]

The issue is not inflated, it’s really rather important.

Sea border or land border. The U.K. doesn’t know which one it wants, and it’s I don’t think you can blame the EU for ‘stalling’ when the U.K. isn’t saying which it wants.

You're just trying to dream up an attack on the Conservatives.

Our position is clear .. it just happens to be one that the EU, surprise surprise, is opposing to further stymie talks.

Let me remind you:


Barnier's position means the likelihood of a border down the Irish sea - with Northern Ireland remaining in the customs union while the rest of the United Kingdom is outside it - has not gone away, despite UK Prime Minister Theresa May categorically rejecting it as unacceptable.

We oppose a sea border .. that is clear. We also don't want a hard border that's based on land .. the old arrangement worked well, and we're content with it.

But, Barnier & Co worry that, post-Brexit, we might not be having a tough enough time of it !! So, his side (now aided & abetted by the S Irish PM, who is, after all, leading an EU country that is remaining loyal to 'The Club') want harder borders. The sea border is a live issue, principally because the EU are keeping it that way.

[Noir]

So you don’t want any border, but you do want border immigration controls, and you do want the ability to set different customs rates...

[Drummond]

So you don’t want any border, but you do want border immigration controls, and you do want the ability to set different customs rates...

We're talking about just one set of countries, north and southern Ireland. I'm in favour of a SOFT border ... i.e close to the status quo.

It's the EU side that wants more than that .. 'curiously'.

[Noir]

We're talking about just one set of countries, north and southern Ireland. I'm in favour of a SOFT border ... i.e close to the status quo.

It's the EU side that wants more than that .. 'curiously'.

And how do you manage immigration between the EU and U.K. on this ‘soft status quo border’?

[Drummond]

And how do you manage immigration between the EU and U.K. on this ‘soft status quo border’?

This might be of interest. It dates back to 2013, before the EU suddenly started caring about the Irish border.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10526826/Britain-boosts-Irish-border-checks-in-bid-to-improve-security.html


Whitehall sources disclose Britain has begun offering help to improve Ireland's border controls.

Britain is giving technology and manpower to the Irish government amid fears that the Republic’s “primitive” border controls could be abused by criminals and illegal immigrants to get into this country.

No passport checks are carried out between Britain and Ireland because of an agreement known as the Common Travel Area (CTA) which dates back to Irish independence in 1922.

It means that any foreign traveller who enters the Republic can then proceed over the land border into Northern Ireland and then on to mainland Britain without any checks being carried out.

Officials have long recognised the CTA represents a major flaw in Britain’s border security.

The new project aims to reduce the risk it poses by bringing checks at the Irish border up to the same standard as those carried out by Britain.

Senior Whitehall sources confirmed they are working with Dublin and providing UK expertise and technological help.

“It will include us helping them with intelligence and advice on the ground, because their systems compared to ours are quite primitive,” the source said.

“We are looking at enhancing their capabilities to ensure their borders are better secured.”

Senior civil servants are understood to have met with their Irish counterparts in the autumn.

The source added that negotiations involve Britain contributing manpower and assisting Ireland with developing new border technology.

You seem to be confusing the term 'soft border' with a belief that this means no checks at all. Well ... the above article defies that misconception.

Bear in mind that it isn't just the UK that has a responsibility to carry out checks. The same is true of southern Ireland as well. Obviously, we've been assisting them in the task of getting fully up to speed on that. As we're five years on .. I assume it's all done & dusted by now.

[Noir]

So you would have land border checks for the purposes of immigration, customs levies rather than a frictionless border?

[Drummond]

So you would have land border checks for the purposes of immigration, customs levies rather than a frictionless border?

Does 'frictionless' mean what you think it means ?

Here's an example of one in action:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41412561


If you want to know how to run an efficient, hi-tech, virtually frictionless border - come to Norway. At least, that's what Norwegian Customs would have you believe.

But this country also has advice for the UK about making its border run smoothly after Brexit - it's about collaboration, not just technology.

Norway, which is not a member of the European Union, has a thousand-mile frontier with Sweden, the EU's longest land border. The Norwegians are part of the European Economic Area, meaning they enjoy tariff-free trade, but they still have to mount customs checks at the borders.

"I don't think there's any border in the world that's so smooth," says Kristen Hoiberget who runs the customs operation at Svinesund, one of a dozen border crossings that freight companies are allowed to use. He says the average waiting time is eight minutes.

There has been a major investment in technology to make things run more smoothly. That includes IT systems allowing goods to be declared to customs before they leave the warehouse, and a sophisticated communications network - Nordnet - that allows the 1,300 customs officials to co-ordinate the policing of such a long border.

Then there are four giant scanners that x-ray the lorries picked out for inspection, checking for contraband. In a warehouse at Svinesund, I'm showed the results: crates full of mainly Polish beer and vodka, destined for Norway, where alcohol taxes are sky high. There is also a sack of potatoes - there are strict controls on movement of food and agricultural products across the border.

Get the idea ? Customs checks STILL happen. Technological checks ARE carried out.

The joke of it is, it's the EU which doesn't trust our standard of checks, even though - as I showed you before - the UK had to bring Southern Ireland up to our better standard !!

I've not seen one word from the EU side that criticises Southern Ireland for its viability. But they do question ours - which is a joke.

That's because S Ireland is loyal to them. But we have been 'naughty' enough to want Brexit.

So, it's us who needs to have a hard time from them ...

As the article said, frictionless borders are, in part, about collaboration. But the EU is setting itself in needless opposition to us, as it has throughout our 'talks'. Were the EU to change its ways, our ideas would work well.

But the EU is the EU .... and we see where that leads.

[Noir]

So all we need for your ‘non-frictionless frictionless’ border are some border checkpoints (bye-bye CTA?) a vast increase in border service people, the designing and implementation of a cross border ICT system (the U.K. is renowned for making these systems on time, within budget, and working, right??), and maybe a giant X-ray machine or two. Seems reasonable.

Also this does nothing to address the immigration issue, but one thing at a time I guess.

[Gunny]

Drummond having read this little reparte with Noir you are having, and of course being American, I'd just say to Hell with it and walk out and be damned before I'd pay the EU a farthing (Y'alls money, not mine :)). Best I can get from all this is the "bad guy" is the EU and Ireland (the southern part?) the obstreperous child.

Meanwhile this other guy -- the Labour Party dinosaur -- is living in his own little dream world?

[Drummond]

So all we need for your ‘non-frictionless frictionless’ border are some border checkpoints (bye-bye CTA?) a vast increase in border service people, the designing and implementation of a cross border ICT system (the U.K. is renowned for making these systems on time, within budget, and working, right??), and maybe a giant X-ray machine or two. Seems reasonable.

Also this does nothing to address the immigration issue, but one thing at a time I guess.

What we really need is for the EU to start being cooperative, instead of obstructive. So much more would be achieved that way.

Please tell me, then, that no technologies exist, or ever could, for identifying people ... and their status ... ?

[Drummond]

@Drummond (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=2287) having read this little reparte with Noir you are having, and of course being American, I'd just say to Hell with it and walk out and be damned before I'd pay the EU a farthing (Y'alls money, not mine :)). Best I can get from all this is the "bad guy" is the EU and Ireland (the southern part?) the obstreperous child.

Meanwhile this other guy -- the Labour Party dinosaur -- is living in his own little dream world?

Well, we haven't paid them anything yet, so far as I know. I think our negotiators are dangling the '40 billion' (not sure if it's in sterling, or euros) in front of the EU side's noses as an incentive to get negotiations concluded.

Such is the obstructiveness of the EU, that it seems not to be working ....

[Personally, I'd happily pay farthings to the EU. Why not ? They've not been legal tender for several decades ... :laugh::laugh:]

Corbyn is definitely a dinosaur. But, as I said, his hardline ideas are so old as to appear fresh and new to anyone not old enough to remember the last time they were tried (with terrible results !).

What fascinates me about Corbyn's Nationalisation plans is that he'd have to spend many billions just to properly implement them. Yet ... cries of how pulling out of the EU will cripple our economy, are heard the loudest from the Left.

Unless Corbyn's insane, therefore .. he must, himself, be saying that he has faith in the prosperity of a post-Brexit UK !!

[Gunny]

Well, we haven't paid them anything yet, so far as I know. I think our negotiators are dangling the '40 billion' (not sure if it's in sterling, or euros) in front of the EU side's noses as an incentive to get negotiations concluded.

Such is the obstructiveness of the EU, that it seems not to be working ....

[Personally, I'd happily pay farthings to the EU. Why not ? They've not been legal tender for several decades ... :laugh::laugh:]

Corbyn is definitely a dinosaur. But, as I said, his hardline ideas are so old as to appear fresh and new to anyone not old enough to remember the last time they were tried (with terrible results !).

What fascinates me about Corbyn's Nationalisation plans is that he'd have to spend many billions just to properly implement them. Yet ... cries of how pulling out of the EU will cripple our economy, are heard the loudest from the Left.

Unless Corbyn's insane, therefore .. he must, himself, be saying that he has faith in the prosperity of a post-Brexit UK !!I have no idea what a farthing is/was worth. I figured more than a half-penny since you have/had those :)

I have never understood the UK joining the EU from the start. Best analogy I can think of is tying an anchor around your neck before going for a swim.

[Drummond]

I have no idea what a farthing is/was worth. I figured more than a half-penny since you have/had those :)

I have never understood the UK joining the EU from the start. Best analogy I can think of is tying an anchor around your neck before going for a swim.

I think I'm right in saying that the halfpenny ceased to be legal tender at, or around, the time we introduced our decimalised currency (introduced 15th February 1971). The farthing ceased to be legal tender a long time before that .... another decade earlier. A farthing was one quarter of a penny. It simply had too little value, even back then, to justify its continued existence.

https://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/farthings-last-day


By the 1950's bus conductors were refusing to accept farthing coins and their value was so small that their usefulness was felt to be over. None were minted after 1956 and they were not legal tender after 1960. The new penny introduced in 1971 is about the same size as a farthing (20 millimetres in diameter), but such has been the fall in the value of money that its purchasing power is less than 50 per cent of what the farthing’s was on its final day.

You have to remember that what the UK originally joined was nothing more than a trading confederation (the EEC). That was long before the power vacuum was filled and it became the EU, complete with legislative, political and financial influence over its Member States.

As to why John Major went further in binding us to the EU, I don't properly understand it myself. Labour (under Brown) consolidated that further, with the Lisbon Treaty.

Perhaps, in its simplest terms, it all had to do with power-plays. Just as the EU part-dominated us, so in turn our membership gave us voting rights and representation in the EU Parliament.

But it was always a severely unequal arrangement.

I can't wait for us to be rid of the EU myself.

[Noir]

What we really need is for the EU to start being cooperative, instead of obstructive. So much more would be achieved that way.

Please tell me, then, that no technologies exist, or ever could, for identifying people ... and their status ... ?

What we need is for the U.K. to put forward their actual proposal for the border.

The technology’s certainly could be implemented, at the cost of the CTA etc.

[Drummond]

What we need is for the U.K. to put forward their actual proposal for the border.

The technology’s certainly could be implemented, at the cost of the CTA etc.

The EU knows what our approach would be.

They just - conveniently - don't much like it.

To them, it's a 'good' excuse to throw another Luddite-type spanner at the process of useful, progress-achieving, negotiation.

If it's not over this, they'd dream up another stalling tactic.

[Noir]

*the damn EU are dragging their heels over our proposal*

-what proposal have your made?-

*well we haven’t made one because we know if we did they’d drag their heels, damn EU*

(:

[Drummond]

*the damn EU are dragging their heels over our proposal*

-what proposal have your made?-

*well we haven’t made one because we know if we did they’d drag their heels, damn EU*

(:

... in which case then, Noir, what I'm sending you a link to cannot possibly exist. Yes .. ?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/985984/Brexit-news-Theresa-May-Chequers-plan-explained-David-Davis-Brexit-Secretary-latest

Read it for yourself.

It's definitely a fudge package, and one that was overly-deferential to what we thought might find favour in the EU !

Then, there's this:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/995011/Brexit-latest-news-theresa-may-EU-exit-live-austria


THE European Union's demands are forcing the UK to leave the bloc without a deal, former deputy Brexit secretary Steve Baker has warned as Theresa May meets with Austrian and Czech leaders in a Brexit charm offensive.

The eurosceptic said Brussels' response to Theresa May's Chequers plan was an attempt to get the UK to remain in both the single market and customs union.

On Thrursday, the EU's chief negotiator dealt Mrs May a blow by rejecting the customs proposals she has outlined.

Mr Baker, who quit the government over the Chequers plan, said: "Chequers was bound to be the beginning of the EU pushing the UK to the unacceptable combination of EEA (European Economic Area) and customs union membership.

"On this road, eventually we will reach a fork between final capitulation or exit with no agreement."

Theresa May is in Austria to hold crunch Brexit talks with Chancellor Sebastian Kurz and Czech Republic Prime Minister Andrej Babis.

This round of talks is part of several meetings across Europe which Mrs May and her ministers are holding as they desperately try to win over support for the new Chequers Brexit blueprint.

But the Czech Government indicated little support for her proposals for the UK's future relationship with the EU.

[Noir]

As explained in your link above - the ‘plan’ is light on details - take for example freedom of movement, we know it will end, but really nothing else.

So what exactly that means if you live in Northern Ireland and work in Ireland? Who knows. What if you want to trip to Ireland for a few weeks? Who knows. What if you’re buying some customs goods on one side and traveling to the other? Who knows.

Nobody knows. Great proposals.

[Gunny]

As explained in your link above - the ‘plan’ is light on details - take for example freedom of movement, we know it will end, but really nothing else.

So what exactly that means if you live in Northern Ireland and work in Ireland? Who knows. What if you want to trip to Ireland for a few weeks? Who knows. What if you’re buying some customs goods on one side and traveling to the other? Who knows.

Nobody knows. Great proposals.YOU have yet to answer a single question. Rather, you have repeatedly talked in a circle, "answering" direct questions with evasive questions.

Even *I* get Drummond's point, and the EU's motive is obvious. The Democratic Party here uses the same stalling tactics. If the Brits proposed a border it wouldn't be the right one, no matter what. A solution defeats the EUs purpose. Just as giving definitive answers to Drummond's questions defeats YOUR agenda.

[Noir]

YOU have yet to answer a single question. Rather, you have repeatedly talked in a circle, "answering" direct questions with evasive questions.

Even *I* get Drummond's point, and the EU's motive is obvious. The Democratic Party here uses the same stalling tactics. If the Brits proposed a border it wouldn't be the right one, no matter what. A solution defeats the EUs purpose. Just as giving definitive answers to Drummond's questions defeats YOUR agenda.

The “brits” can’t make a proposal because the DUP and the Conservatives do not have the same goals in mind, and the ever pressing ties of the CTA and GFA don’t exactly simplify the problem.

Whether you consider that the fault of the DUP or Conservatives is one thing, trying to pin it on the EU however completely misses the mark.

[Gunny]

The “brits” can’t make a proposal because the DUP and the Conservatives do not have the same goals in mind, and the ever pressing ties of the CTA and GFA don’t exactly simplify the problem.

Whether you consider that the fault of the DUP or Conservatives is one thing, trying to pin it on the EU however completely misses the mark.Yeah, right. Can't see the elephant in the room? Or just don't want to as it suits your agenda?

When you dust away all the names of the countries and the hundreds of parties y'all seem to have, the simplicity of the EU's strategy and tactics is glaringly exposed. As I previously pointed out, the left plays the same stalling game here, hoping for a more favorable moment to pounce and stab everyone in the back. They're doing it with this Mueller investigation and tying up illegal immigration in the courts. Kids learn it in primary school.

The "proposal" is to maintain the status quo, is it not? That IS a proposal. As far as I'm concerned, whichever part of Ireland you support sticking with the EU should. The EU is important only unto itself. You get a mediocre, cookie cutter existence while the EU bureaucracy lives like fat cats. If you think that's fair, you deserve every bit of what you get.

[Drummond]

The “brits” can’t make a proposal because the DUP and the Conservatives do not have the same goals in mind, and the ever pressing ties of the CTA and GFA don’t exactly simplify the problem.

Whether you consider that the fault of the DUP or Conservatives is one thing, trying to pin it on the EU however completely misses the mark.

There are certain disagreements between the DUP and the Conservatives, yes. But, the DUP's ability to influence the Conservatives relies entirely on situations in which DUP votes in the House of Commons are needed to provide support ... this only being the case where all other MP's of all other Parties unite against the Government, in an attempt to outvote them.

But on Brexit, voting intentions aren't quite 'the norm' ...

Anyway, Noir, if - as you say - 'The “brits” can’t make a proposal' - then please explain Mrs May's ongoing approaches to other EU leaders. What is she trying to sell them, if not from clarity on how we now wish to proceed ??

Noir, you've been a tad disingenuous. Parliament has already been consulted, amendments passed or declined .. the result of this is now settled. As a result, we ARE making our proposals. This, from the Irish Times .. see ....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/brexit-q-a-what-has-happened-in-westminster-and-what-does-it-mean-for-the-border-backstop-1.3567750


What’s been going on at Westminster?

Theresa May’s government caved in to hardline Brexiteers in Jacob Rees-Mogg’s European Research Group (ERG) on Monday night by accepting four amendments to a customs bill. They rule out a customs union with the EU without primary legislation; say Britain can’t collect tariffs for the EU unless the EU does the same for Britain; demand that Britain must have a separate VAT policy to the EU; and rule out different customs arrangements for Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.

Conservative Remainers, outraged by the government’s capitulation, proposed their own amendments to a trade bill on Tuesday. The most important, which was defeated by six votes, would have kept Britain in a customs union with the EU unless an arrangement for frictionless trade was agreed by January 2019. Another amendment, to keep Britain aligned to the European medicines regulatory network, was passed.

What does all this mean for the Chequers proposal?

The prime minister says the amendments accepted on Monday night make no difference to the Chequers plan because they reflect government policy. But Brexiteers think they have killed the proposal, pointing out that it is now under fire from both wings of the party, with former education secretary and Remainer Justine Greening rejecting it on Monday.

The amendment on collecting tariffs for the EU does appear to contradict the Chequers plan and last week’s white paper, which did not demand reciprocity for the EU. More importantly, the Brexiteers’ show of strength serves as a reminder to the prime minister that they could torpedo any deal she brings back from Brussels.

What does it mean for the Border backstop?

The amendment ruling out different customs arrangements for Northern Ireland is in conflict with the EU’s backstop proposal, which would treat Northern Ireland as part of the EU customs union after Brexit. But May has already rejected that proposal, asserting that no British prime minister would ever agree to impose a border in the Irish Sea.

This amendment was nodded through on a voice vote on Monday night, reflecting the support of many Labour MPs for the prime minister’s position. But as negotiations over the backstop continue in Brussels over the next few weeks, the EU side will play down the impact of a different customs and regulatory regime for Northern Ireland in the hope of reaching agreement.

The EU’s position remains that, without an agreement on the backstop, there will be no withdrawal agreement and no transition period after Brexit. By putting Britain’s opposition to the EU backstop proposal into law, May’s government has limited its room for manoeuvre in negotiations.

You say, Noir, that the Brits 'can't make a proposal'. Oh, really ?

Care to think again ?

[Noir]

^There is no proposal, provision, or plan to enforce the customs arrangements and VAT changes between the North and South. None.

From the text you quoted the brexit lobby themselves can’t even seem to discern is this strengthened or killed the proposal... “The prime minister says the amendments accepted on Monday night make no difference to the Chequers plan because they reflect government policy. But Brexiteers think they have killed the proposal”


Clear as a muddy lake (:

[Drummond]

^There is no proposal, provision, or plan to enforce the customs arrangements and VAT changes between the North and South. None.

From the text you quoted the brexit lobby themselves can’t even seem to discern is this strengthened or killed the proposal... “The prime minister says the amendments accepted on Monday night make no difference to the Chequers plan because they reflect government policy. But Brexiteers think they have killed the proposal”


Clear as a muddy lake (:

No plan ? No provision ? Really ?

... AGAIN, THEN ...


Theresa May’s government caved in to hardline Brexiteers in Jacob Rees-Mogg’s European Research Group (ERG) on Monday night by accepting four amendments to a customs bill. They rule out a customs union with the EU without primary legislation; say Britain can’t collect tariffs for the EU unless the EU does the same for Britain; demand that Britain must have a separate VAT policy to the EU; and rule out different customs arrangements for Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.

Legislation is a vital part of enforcement. There's your evidence of the necessary step towards that goal.

You'll also note, though, that the amendment requires reciprocal steps from the EU .. where are they ? What do we know of the EU's progress towards this ?

'No plan', you say. 'No provision'. Then .. why the amendment in the first place ?

Note the point made earlier, though. When it comes to getting Brexit bills voted on, because of the patchy voting, the DUP doesn't necessarily have the leverage it'd normally hope for. So it may well be that we can reasonably remove their 'wants' and 'blackmail demands' from the equation.

[Drummond]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45073294


Liam Fox says the chance of a no-deal Brexit is growing, blaming the "intransigence" of the European Commission.

The international trade secretary and Brexiteer put the chance of failing to come to an agreement at "60-40".

He told the Sunday Times that Brussels' chief negotiator had dismissed the UK's Chequers proposals simply because "we have never done it before".

No 10 insists the government remains confident it can get a good deal.

Mr Fox told the paper that he had not thought the likelihood of no-deal was higher than 50-50, but the risk had increased.

He said the EU had to decide whether to act in the economic best interests of its people, or to go on pursuing an approach determined by an obsession with the purity of its rules.

"I think the intransigence of the commission is pushing us towards no deal," he said.