It Doesn't Have To Be Blackmail-But Why The Idolizing? [Archive] - Debate Policy

Kathianne

07-16-2018, 02:25 PM

It's not just bashers that are upset with Trump's choice of backing Putin over US Intelligence agencies:

https://hotair.com/archives/2018/07/16/graham-dont-put-soccer-ball-oval-office-mr-president/

For the record, Morrissey has supported Trump strongly in most instances:

Graham: Don’t Put The Soccer Ball In The Oval Office, Mr. President

ED MORRISSEYPosted at 3:01 pm on July 16, 2018

A notable if somewhat lame response to the atrocious Donald Trump-Vladimir Putin press conference (https://hotair.com/?p=4082240&preview=true), in which Trump essentially took Putin’s side over that of the US intelligence community. It’s one thing for Trump to follow the same feckless path as George Bush and Barack Obama (https://hotair.com/archives/2018/07/16/trump-kicks-off-russia-summit-world-wants-see-us-get-along/) when it comes to misreading Putin; it’s an entirely different level of failure and fecklessness to trust Putin more than your own handpicked director of national intelligence. Just last week (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/13/us/politics/dan-coats-intelligence-russia-cyber-warning.html), DNI Dan Coats warned that the lights are “blinking red” on another Russian attack on election infrastructure:

...

High_Plains_Drifter

07-16-2018, 03:10 PM

You can say something and not mean it. I'm sure Putin is doing the same thing. Just like all the DOJ and FBI bubble heads have been doing to congress.

Like people asking me for a ride in the Camaro, I tell them sure, one of these days, when I have no intention of ever giving them a ride... :rolleyes:

Kathianne

07-16-2018, 03:15 PM

High_Plains_Drifter

07-16-2018, 03:26 PM

I'm missing the meaning of your analogy.

So, it's cool, maybe true. Putin said Russia did not interfere, so it didn't. Meanwhile Coats and Co., appt by Trump, are part of those making the mess of things with Russia?
Say one thing publicly but don't mean it? Like be upbeat, paint a rosey picture, gloss it over... etc... be diplomatic... seems to be that that's what they all do.

Kathianne

07-16-2018, 03:40 PM

Say one thing publicly but don't mean it? Like be upbeat, paint a rosey picture, gloss it over... etc... be diplomatic... seems to be that that's what they all do.

Like with May and Merkel this week? So I take it that the intelligence community doesn't mind being disrespected, they know the real score? Putin too, knows Trump is just blowing smoke?

High_Plains_Drifter

07-16-2018, 03:51 PM

Like with May and Merkel this week? So I take it that the intelligence community doesn't mind being disrespected, they know the real score? Putin too, knows Trump is just blowing smoke?
OK... :rolleyes:

Kathianne

07-16-2018, 03:56 PM

OK... :rolleyes:

I'm really trying to understand what you mean. What I wrote is how you sounded to me, maybe I'm misunderstanding?

I didn't post the op here on other thread, I don't think there's been any blackmailing and I know there's no proof of collusion. Pelosi is every bit the whack job most of the right thinks she is.

What I don't get is the more than harsh behavior Trump has displayed towards Canada, UK, EU, Germany, as opposed to his treatment in the past and today regarding Russia and Putin in particular. Which is 'private' and which is 'fake'?

High_Plains_Drifter

07-16-2018, 04:07 PM

I'm really trying to understand what you mean. What I wrote is how you sounded to me, maybe I'm misunderstanding?

I didn't post the op here on other thread, I don't think there's been any blackmailing and I know there's no proof of collusion. Pelosi is every bit the whack job most of the right thinks she is.

What I don't get is the more than harsh behavior Trump has displayed towards Canada, UK, EU, Germany, as opposed to his treatment in the past and today regarding Russia and Putin in particular. Which is 'private' and which is 'fake'?
You haven't seen any harsh behavior from Canada, the UK, EU and Germany towards president Trump?

Kathianne

07-16-2018, 04:09 PM

High_Plains_Drifter

07-16-2018, 04:25 PM

That's not the issue. To answer your question though, not on the 'world stage,' no. When have you seen such at this type of event? I may have missed, I don't have TV and seriously have not been paying attention to the degree I have in the past.
There's been plenty examples of it here on the board though, Kath, and it's even in that article.

I still think president Trump has displayed an incredible amount of self control considering the DELUGE of INSULTS and DISRESPECT he gets DAILY. He's doing better than I'd do. I'd have blown a gasket by now and done something really stupid.

Kathianne

07-16-2018, 04:31 PM

There's been plenty examples of it here on the board though, Kath.

I still think president Trump display an incredible amount of self control considering the DELUGE of INSULTS and DISRESPECT he gets DAILY. He's doing better than I'd do. I'd have blown a gasket by now and done something really stupid.

I guess we are not communicating, their not liking him personally, is not the same thing he's doing with Putin and so many of our allies.

Now you seem to be arguing that since they don't like him, he can just dis allies, his intelligence services, and basically say that the US sucks, but he'll make it better. Before it was 'he didn't mean it, it's how diplomacy is done.'

I guess you are happy with his behavior towards Putin and our intelligence services, including Coats and others that Trump appointed? I suppose that is what has my curiosity at this point.

gabosaurus

07-16-2018, 04:55 PM

High_Plains_Drifter

07-16-2018, 05:24 PM

I guess we are not communicating, their not liking him personally, is not the same thing he's doing with Putin and so many of our allies.

Now you seem to be arguing that since they don't like him, he can just dis allies, his intelligence services, and basically say that the US sucks, but he'll make it better. Before it was 'he didn't mean it, it's how diplomacy is done.'

I guess you are happy with his behavior towards Putin and our intelligence services, including Coats and others that Trump appointed? I suppose that is what has my curiosity at this point.
The problem is, I like Trump, you hate Trump. That's why we have different takes on the situation, and probably why neither will understand the other.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-16-2018, 05:25 PM

You have to be sitting pretty deeply under your conservative blanket to not agree that this behavior is treasonous.
TREASON... you fuckin' jackoff leftist are out of your fucking minds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S87612I2eO8

Drummond

07-16-2018, 05:28 PM

After this horrible attempt at diplomacy, it is time to admit the obvious: Trump is Putin's bitch.
It is obvious that Putin and the Russian government hold some secret negotiating card that Trump is deeply afraid of. When was the last time a sitting American president openly stated that a confirmed enemy of our country should be believed over domestic government agencies?
You have to be sitting pretty deeply under your conservative blanket to not agree that this behavior is treasonous.

http://democraticmoms.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/donald-trump-time1.jpg

I see that you're banned, Gabby.

If or when you ever return ... my message is, 'Put up or shut up'.

You want to make such charges against Trump ... then OK, PROVE THEM. Failing that, quit acting like a typical Leftie, adopt some INTEGRITY, and try offering an apology.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-16-2018, 05:30 PM

What I don't get is the more than harsh behavior Trump has displayed towards Canada, UK, EU, Germany, as opposed to his treatment in the past and today regarding Russia and Putin in particular.

That's not the issue.

Huh?

Black Diamond

07-16-2018, 05:34 PM

TREASON... you fuckin' jackoff leftist are out of your fucking minds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S87612I2eO8
Oh she's not the only one. Hollywood has already started.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-16-2018, 05:39 PM

Oh she's not the only one. Hollywood has already started.
These people are fucking lunatics.

I can't wait for November, because I know damn well the MAJORITY of Americans are SICK TO DEATH of this BULL SHIT.

Black Diamond

07-16-2018, 05:42 PM

These people are fucking lunatics.

I can't wait for November, because I know damn well the MAJORITY of Americans are SICK TO DEATH of this BULL SHIT.
I think you will be surprised. In a good way.

Kathianne

07-16-2018, 05:56 PM

You haven't seen any harsh behavior from Canada, the UK, EU and Germany towards president Trump?

That's not the issue. To answer your question though, not on the 'world stage,' no. When have you seen such at this type of event? I may have missed, I don't have TV and seriously have not been paying attention to the degree I have in the past.

There's been plenty examples of it here on the board though, Kath, and it's even in that article.

I still think president Trump has displayed an incredible amount of self control considering the DELUGE of INSULTS and DISRESPECT he gets DAILY. He's doing better than I'd do. I'd have blown a gasket by now and done something really stupid. I do a fair job of reading on the board, that's not necessarily things that are happening though, as much as an outrage by some or a great thing by others. (See Gabby getting banned on a trolling or folks loving when Trump tweets something they find 'to be shaking things up.')

I've not seen anything that comes from a leader of country, visiting out of country, saying that his country and leaders have been wrong for a long time; indeed, equating US behaviors with Russia's and taking Putin's forceful denials over the 'intelligence agencies' here that he 'has a lot of trust in.'

You went onto say that his many instances of disrespecting allied leaders were because of their behaviors to him. Where did they do the same on an international stage? Disliking and disrespecting are different. Indeed when French President visited here, he was more than nice, basically gushing in his praise for President and the US people. At the same time, you didn't see him going over the top in his praise of Trump, indeed it was more about the office than the man.

This is the first time I've seen Trump acting worse oversees than at home. I don't think his 'being new' will cut it anymore.

I guess we are not communicating, their not liking him personally, is not the same thing he's doing with Putin and so many of our allies.

Now you seem to be arguing that since they don't like him, he can just dis allies, his intelligence services, and basically say that the US sucks, but he'll make it better. Before it was 'he didn't mean it, it's how diplomacy is done.'

I guess you are happy with his behavior towards Putin and our intelligence services, including Coats and others that Trump appointed? I suppose that is what has my curiosity at this point.

The problem is, I like Trump, you hate Trump. That's why we have different takes on the situation, and probably why neither will understand the other. Nope, I disagree. I don't 'hate Trump,' I don't know him personally. I hate many of his behaviors, like some of his policies and appointments. I truly think his meeting with Putin has been a disaster and it's not Pelosi's fault, but her going to 'something on him,' just illustrates why she is so reviled.

Huh?

My response was to yours regarding behaviors of other leaders that you said, 'dis'd Trump.' I asked when on such a trip or platform? You responded with 'examples all over the board,' which I responded to above regarding the difference of 'world audience' and 'personal opinion.'

Many don't like Trump, I know you find that difficult to believe. On the other hand, he IS the President and folks need to get that too.

Kathianne

07-16-2018, 05:58 PM

Just looking at the last few posts here, thought I'd throw in my 2 cent prediction. I think GOP will likely hold onto power in both Houses-baring something huge happening. I think Trump will get nearly everything he wants. It's strange times here, not sure where it's all going to go.

Too far to be certain, but without some huge event, Trump, like Obama, will be 2 term.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-16-2018, 05:58 PM

I think you will be surprised. In a good way.
This is what happens when you have 8 YEARS of an America hating little kenyan muslim DOG TURD that does everything in his POWER to DESTROY America... "fundamentally transform."

We TOTALLY REJECTED the kenyan and his HATE AMERICA agenda, and now it's being UNDONE, and the left is just going absolutely BAT SHIT CRAZY... SHOCKER. These people are the TRASH of society, where ever they are.

https://image.ibb.co/iJ9YWy/Dh_BNd_N7_Xc_AEhjq_T.jpg

Drummond

07-16-2018, 07:07 PM

I do a fair job of reading on the board, that's not necessarily things that are happening though, as much as an outrage by some or a great thing by others. (See Gabby getting banned on a trolling or folks loving when Trump tweets something they find 'to be shaking things up.')

I've not seen anything that comes from a leader of country, visiting out of country, saying that his country and leaders have been wrong for a long time; indeed, equating US behaviors with Russia's and taking Putin's forceful denials over the 'intelligence agencies' here that he 'has a lot of trust in.'

You went onto say that his many instances of disrespecting allied leaders were because of their behaviors to him. Where did they do the same on an international stage? Disliking and disrespecting are different. Indeed when French President visited here, he was more than nice, basically gushing in his praise for President and the US people. At the same time, you didn't see him going over the top in his praise of Trump, indeed it was more about the office than the man.

This is the first time I've seen Trump acting worse oversees than at home. I don't think his 'being new' will cut it anymore.

Nope, I disagree. I don't 'hate Trump,' I don't know him personally. I hate many of his behaviors, like some of his policies and appointments. I truly think his meeting with Putin has been a disaster and it's not Pelosi's fault, but her going to 'something on him,' just illustrates why she is so reviled.

My response was to yours regarding behaviors of other leaders that you said, 'dis'd Trump.' I asked when on such a trip or platform? You responded with 'examples all over the board,' which I responded to above regarding the difference of 'world audience' and 'personal opinion.'

Many don't like Trump, I know you find that difficult to believe. On the other hand, he IS the President and folks need to get that too.

Can you really not be aware that posts such as the one I'm replying to do the Left's work for them ? Conservatives need to unite behind their leader. Any display of dissent helps Conservative enemies.

If you're critical of Trump's visit to the UK, I don't believe you've got good cause to be. OK ... he didn't follow protocols to the letter, but then, consider that his overall intentions, that of a powerful leader and ally doing all he could to demonstrate his belief in that relationship, is what REALLY counts. One can leave it to the rabid Left to protest, carp, undermine, act as the ENEMIES they are, and they'd have done it even if all aspects of President Trump's visit had gone impeccably.

As for his position on Russian denials ... well, do we know what Trump knows ? Do we have his insights ? I think not. I'd rather not rush to judgement. You can trust Trump's detractors to do all of that for you - hoping to do as much harm as they can.

As critical as you're minded to be .. you should consider the alternative. Do you want the Democrats back into power, having amassed ammunition (representing reputability OR NOT) to manage such a feat ? I say again ... don't do their work for them.

Kathianne

07-16-2018, 07:12 PM

Can you really not be aware that posts such as the one I'm replying to do the Left's work for them ? Conservatives need to unite behind their leader. Any display of dissent helps Conservative enemies.

If you're critical of Trump's visit to the UK, I don't believe you've got good cause to be. OK ... he didn't follow protocols to the letter, but then, consider that his overall intentions, that of a powerful leader and ally doing all he could to demonstrate his belief in that relationship, is what REALLY counts. One can leave it to the rabid Left to protest, carp, undermine, act as the ENEMIES they are, and they'd have done it even if all aspects of President Trump's visit had gone impeccably.

As for his position on Russian denials ... well, do we know what Trump knows ? Do we have his insights ? I think not. I'd rather not rush to judgement. You can trust Trump's detractors to do all of that for you - hoping to do as much harm as they can.

As critical as you're minded to be .. you should consider the alternative. Do you want the Democrats back into power, having amassed ammunition (representing reputability OR NOT) to manage such a feat ? I say again ... don't do their work for them.

Again, this had nothing to do with 'right' and 'left' it had to do with the POTUS dissing the US intelligence agencies; former Presidents and Congress. It's wrong to create equivalency between the US and Russia, IMO. I would think after the poisonings, you of all would agree with that?

Drummond

07-16-2018, 07:28 PM

Again, this had nothing to do with 'right' and 'left' it had to do with the POTUS dissing the US intelligence agencies; former Presidents and Congress. It's wrong to create equivalency between the US and Russia, IMO. I would think after the poisonings, you of all would agree with that?

I think that Russia needs to be held accountable for its actions. The one leader having any real hope of doing so in a meaningful way is the very one you're working to be critical of.

Of COURSE this is a Right v Left issue. Why ? Because the Left will make sure it can't be anything else !! The Left look for any excuse, no matter how minor, to undermine the current President.

Either (unwittingly or not) they are aided in their agenda, or, they're not. I much prefer that they're NOT.

aboutime

07-16-2018, 07:33 PM

NOTICE: To All. President Trump DID NOT....I say again...DID NOT diss our intelligence agencies. Like Nancy Pelosi and all the other HATE-FILLED idiots who convince themselves ONLY THEY ARE RIGHT. Because the President DIDN'T say, what the SNOWFLAKES, DEMOCRATS, LIBERALS, and AMERICAN HATERS wanted him to say. DOES NOT MEAN HE DOESN'T HAVE FAITH IN THE AGENCIES. The people making the most noise....HAVE THE MOST TO HIDE.

Kathianne

07-16-2018, 07:36 PM

I think that Russia needs to be held accountable for its actions. The one leader having any real hope of doing so in a meaningful way is the very one you're working to be critical of.

Of COURSE this is a Right v Left issue. Why ? Because the Left will make sure it can't be anything else !! The Left look for any excuse, no matter how minor, to undermine the current President.

Either (unwittingly or not) they are aided in their agenda, or, they're not. I much prefer that they're NOT.

The left is over the top, the whole 'resistance nonsense is keeping people like me from going off the deep end, what the left 'could do' if they weren't so f'ing nutty. Honestly. But they are.

It wasn't the left though who has Trump lauding over Putin, while dissing allied leaders with regularity. That's ok, that's what seems to be acceptable now. It's not for everyone though.

Drummond

07-16-2018, 10:03 PM

The left is over the top, the whole 'resistance nonsense is keeping people like me from going off the deep end, what the left 'could do' if they weren't so f'ing nutty. Honestly. But they are.

It wasn't the left though who has Trump lauding over Putin, while dissing allied leaders with regularity. That's ok, that's what seems to be acceptable now. It's not for everyone though.

Your Left (or mine, or anybody's) may seem 'nutty' because of the extent of what they say or do. But this misses the point.

Yes, the Left will do anything to attack, go to extremes. But all that they need is for a small fraction of what they say to resonate in peoples' minds. Reject, say, 90% of it. What damage would believing the last 10% do ?

Cast just a 'reasonable doubt' in a voter's mind as to whether Trump should receive electoral support. What adversaries of his would that help ?

I've already made my point. You can support a proven winner, in Trump. Or, you can entertain doubts and then advertise them to the world. Who does this help ? What cause is damaged in the process ?

It's for you to decide if you - and any others who do the same - will insist upon continuing down that path. Does doing so, constitute an acceptable risk for you ?

Kathianne

07-16-2018, 10:59 PM

Your Left (or mine, or anybody's) may seem 'nutty' because of the extent of what they say or do. But this misses the point.

Yes, the Left will do anything to attack, go to extremes. But all that they need is for a small fraction of what they say to resonate in peoples' minds. Reject, say, 90% of it. What damage would believing the last 10% do ?

Cast just a 'reasonable doubt' in a voter's mind as to whether Trump should receive electoral support. What adversaries of his would that help ?

I've already made my point. You can support a proven winner, in Trump. Or, you can entertain doubts and then advertise them to the world. Who does this help ? What cause is damaged in the process ?

It's for you to decide if you - and any others who do the same - will insist upon continuing down that path. Does doing so, constitute an acceptable risk for you ?

Yep, my decision. I made it, will do so in the future. Believe it or not, there are shades of right and left, the only ones that really miss that are the extremists.

FakeNewsSux

07-16-2018, 11:53 PM

Kathianne

07-17-2018, 12:12 AM

High_Plains_Drifter

07-17-2018, 12:19 AM

https://image.ibb.co/f8PZ4J/respect.jpg

... and see how many "likes" he got on that tweet? Enough said.

SassyLady

07-17-2018, 03:52 AM

Kathianne, maybe listening to the viewpoint of one of the preeminent Russian scholars in this country, a man who has covered US/Russian Summits for decades, might give you a more reasoned perspective on today's Summit:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/5810027978001/?#sp=show-clips (http://video.foxnews.com/v/5810027978001/?#sp=show-clips)

I saw this interview. I also watched the news conference live and then the Chris Wallace interview of Putin. Saw parts of Trump interview with Hannity and Tucker. He looked and sounded tired. At the press conference he looked and sounded tired so no telling what they discussed.

My take .. Trump wouldn't say half the crap he does if he didn't get asked idiotic questions from press. Trump met with Putin to try to bring him into the fold, so to speak. I firmly believe Russia is trying to cause disruption in the US. However, so are other major world leaders that he has met with.

Did it piss me off that he didn't publicly call Putin out ... no. I was disappointed that he went off topic and said both sides were to blame. I think he should have just said we discussed it and it's been dealt with. For all we know Putin showed him evidence of the USA doing shenanigans within their country, thus Trump making his statement that both countries are at fault.

Other presidents have screwed up ... JFK with Krushchev in 1961. Kennedy later admitted he got beat up in their meeting. Nixon to China to meet with dictator Mao. Regan and Gorbachev. Negotiations for peace have to start somewhere.

I'm not too worried. In fact, the more the press and the liberals scream the more I think he's on track.

Abbey Marie

07-17-2018, 07:10 AM

Kathianne

07-17-2018, 07:11 AM

I saw this interview. I also watched the news conference live and then the Chris Wallace interview of Putin. Saw parts of Trump interview with Hannity and Tucker. He looked and sounded tired. At the press conference he looked and sounded tired so no telling what they discussed.

My take .. Trump wouldn't say half the crap he does if he didn't get asked idiotic questions from press. Trump met with Putin to try to bring him into the fold, so to speak. I firmly believe Russia is trying to cause disruption in the US. However, so are other major world leaders that he has met with.

Did it piss me off that he didn't publicly call Putin out ... no. I was disappointed that he went off topic and said both sides were to blame. I think he should have just said we discussed it and it's been dealt with. For all we know Putin showed him evidence of the USA doing shenanigans within their country, thus Trump making his statement that both countries are at fault.

Other presidents have screwed up ... JFK with Krushchev in 1961. Kennedy later admitted he got beat up in their meeting. Nixon to China to meet with dictator Mao. Regan and Gorbachev. Negotiations for peace have to start somewhere.

I'm not too worried. In fact, the more the press and the liberals scream the more I think he's on track.

Yes. If he'd done just that, there wouldn't be a problem. Trump's most difficult moments are self-inflicted. He isn't required to swat at everything the press throws at him, he doesn't have to 'get even' with every little thing. Sometimes, it's best to 'get even' down the road, not when your antagonists are baiting.

There's little doubt that there are members of the press, even some of those 'leaders' of countries he dislikes so much' that want him and his administration to fail, but he doesn't need to wear that knowledge on his sleeve.

He's many whom support him through thick and thin, really would cheer and back him without hesitation in any circumstances. Then there are many who really don't care for the man, but do want him or at least his administration to succeed, for the good of the country. When he goes off like he did with Putin, they are more than concerned.

Abbey Marie

07-18-2018, 05:28 PM

Look, some of you know that I’ve taken classes with a former CIA Director of Operations, and 30 year officer. He also sometimes did those daily intelligence briefings with the President in the past.

He has repeatedly told us that the country that has most tried to interfere in other countries’ elections is... the United States. He explained that interference is by planting narratives in newspapers, etc., often false narratives, to influence opinion. Sound familiar?

This “shocked” response to what Russia no doubt did here is absurd. And I’ll guarantee that Trump knows our intelligence history and current activities by now, and he and Putin acknowledged it accordingly.

In class today, teach opened with the “elephant in the room”. Gist of his talk was that the CIA presents facts, as best they can gather them, to the President, Veep, Secretary of State, and a few others as needed. What is then done with that information is not in their purview. Reporting is based on reality, not politics.
They would not be upset with Trump’s remarks. Their desire is to serve and stay out of public view. He clearly indicated that we should not be wringing our hands over any perceived insult to our Intelligence folks.

Black Diamond

07-18-2018, 05:35 PM

In class today, teach opened with the “elephant in the room”. Gist of his talk was that the CIA presents facts, as best they can gather them, to the President, Veep, Secretary of State, and a few others as needed. What is then done with that information is not in their purview. Reporting is based on reality, not politics.
They would not be upset with Trump’s remarks. Their desire is to serve and stay out of public view. He clearly indicated that we should not be wringing our hands over any perceived insult to our Intelligence folks.
Can you help me understand the reversal yesterday ?

Black Diamond

07-18-2018, 06:56 PM

Well I saw sanders press briefing and the White House position still seems to be that trump misspoke. Who knows.

In two weeks it'll be forgotten.

Kathianne

07-18-2018, 07:14 PM

More than Sarah:

https://hotair.com/archives/2018/07/18/trump-hold-putin-responsible-2016-election-meddling/

The post-Helsinki damage control continues. This afternoon President Trump gave an interview to CBS News in which he affirmed that Russia meddled in the 2016 election and that he holds President Putin responsible for it. CBS posted this transcript of the exchange between Trump and anchor Jeff Glor:

...

The note of realism about what to expect from Putin is all good and the fact that he said the same thing pre-Helsinki spoils the narrative that he went into this meeting without realistic expectations about the spin Putin was likely to offer. Trump literally knew the denial was coming before he arrived.

But that makes it even harder to explain why the president came out of his private meeting and reported that Putin had made an “extremely strong and powerful” denial. Why even mention it if you knew all along it was just Putin’s expected line of BS?

The good news is that President Trump seems to be back on track after a couple of rocky days. Yesterday’s clarification about would vs. wouldn’t in his Helsinki statement didn’t sound convincing but at least he’s now saying what he should have said at the time. It’s just too bad he couldn’t have said all of this when Putin was standing next to him. That would have been awkward but at least Putin would have walked away as the person looking diminished.

... (video at site)

High_Plains_Drifter

07-18-2018, 07:19 PM

https://image.ibb.co/eqmgcR/give_a_fuck.gif

Kathianne

07-18-2018, 07:36 PM

Tom, I'm shocked you would have a don't give a fuck o meter regarding the President. It's not like you. I thought you liked him.

Black Diamond

07-18-2018, 07:46 PM

Well maybe Tom is feeling encouraged. If he is, I would like him to spread the encouragement around.

Abbey Marie

07-18-2018, 10:45 PM

I completely disagree with the sentiment that Trump should have insulted Putin face-to-face. And the irony and hypocrisy is that had he done that, the same people would have cried that Trump can’t be diplomatic, and will hurl us into WWIII.

Black Diamond

07-18-2018, 10:52 PM

And I completely disagree with the sentiment that Trump should have insulted Putin face-to-face. And the irony and hypocrisy is that had he done that, the same people would have cried that Trump can’t be diplomatic, and will hurl us into WWIII.
People want him gone. They don't care how or for what cause, if any.

FakeNewsSux

07-19-2018, 12:42 AM

Bad performance in front of a Russian leader, to the point of being treasonous? Hell, this isn't even in the top five:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBjWBUiHDb8

jimnyc

07-19-2018, 11:29 AM

More than Sarah:

https://hotair.com/archives/2018/07/18/trump-hold-putin-responsible-2016-election-meddling/

https://image.ibb.co/eqmgcR/give_a_fuck.gif

Tom, I'm shocked you would have a don't give a fuck o meter regarding the President. It's not like you. I thought you liked him.

Hate to answer for others, but injecting what I think I see. I don't think Tom is saying he doesn't give an F regarding the president, but doesn't give an F regarding the non-stop crap coming from the media and liberals, and more or less being told how we are supposed to feel about what Trump does, or how we should feel about any of his actions.

At least that's how I feel. I'm more than tired with the media. I am more than tired with the fighting in both directions and literally being told how I should feel and respond about things/actions, and what is "wrong" with how I actually do and feel.

Kathianne

07-19-2018, 11:31 AM

Hate to answer for others, but injecting what I think I see. I don't think Tom is saying he doesn't give an F regarding the president, but doesn't give an F regarding the non-stop crap coming from the media and liberals, and more or less being told how we are supposed to feel about what Trump does, or how we should feel about any of his actions.

At least that's how I feel. I'm more than tired with the media. I am more than tired with the fighting in both directions and literally being told how I should feel and respond about things/actions, and what is "wrong" with how I actually do and feel.

It was Trump bing interviewed, I was wrong assuming he'd watched it. Shrug.

jimnyc

07-19-2018, 11:38 AM

It was Trump bing interviewed, I was wrong assuming he'd watched it. Shrug.

I read the article and see a bit of them trying once again to try and tell folks how we should feel, what is/was wrong and what wasn't. I'll let Tom speak for himself of course. But from my own POV, I just grow tired of the media, VERY tired. It's not bade enough that they judge everything that they report on, but they then additionally take it from reporting to how both sides respond and how they should be responding.

I watched the piece and still feel similarly to Tom, but perhaps for different reasons. I feel VERY similarly, but I would have attached an explanation with my disapproving image.

Kathianne

07-19-2018, 11:41 AM

I read the article and see a bit of them trying once again to try and tell folks how we should feel, what is/was wrong and what wasn't. I'll let Tom speak for himself of course. But from my own POV, I just grow tired of the media, VERY tired. It's not bade enough that they judge everything that they report on, but they then additionally take it from reporting to how both sides respond and how they should be responding.

I watched the piece and still feel similarly to Tom, but perhaps for different reasons. I feel VERY similarly, but I would have attached an explanation with my disapproving image.
Ok ,Got it. Nothing feom the media.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 12:09 PM

Ok ,Got it. Nothing feom the media.
I don't consider leftist propaganda "media." I see unhinged crap, and yes Jim, I'm so sick of it I could puke.

Kathy, you have denied that the left is far, FAR worse with their never ending crap, lies and insult attacks on our president AND us that support him since day one. I'm just tired of arguing with you about it. You obviously are NOT going to admit the left is worse, so what's the use of continuing? You have your opinion, I have mine, we both know what they are... so... whatever. I can't argue the same point indefinitely. Repeating myself gets old.

Black Diamond

07-19-2018, 12:10 PM

jimnyc

07-19-2018, 12:12 PM

I don't consider leftist propaganda "media." I see unhinged crap, and yes Jim, I'm so sick of it I could puke.

Kathy, you have denied that the left is far, FAR worse with their never ending crap, lies and insult attacks on our president AND us that support him since day one. I'm just tired of arguing with you about it. You obviously are NOT going to admit the left is worse, so what's the use of continuing? You have your opinion, I have mine, we both know what they are... so... whatever. I can't argue the same point indefinitely. Repeating myself gets old.

Fwiw, while pretty much all of the media out there sucks....

I think you posted a picture without quoting anyone, nor giving any actual opinion of whatever it was you were referring to - and that can lead to folks thinking things are personal when they may not be. I really don't know

I truly have no issue personally with anyone in the world, even liberals - my main issue is with politicians and our government and what they may be doing to us.

Kathianne

07-19-2018, 12:14 PM

I don't consider leftist propaganda "media." I see unhinged crap, and yes Jim, I'm so sick of it I could puke.

Kathy, you have denied that the left is far, FAR worse with their never ending crap, lies and insult attacks on our president AND us that support him since day one. I'm just tired of arguing with you about it. You obviously are NOT going to admit the left is worse, so what's the use of continuing? You have your opinion, I have mine, we both know what they are... so... whatever. I can't argue the same point indefinitely. Repeating myself gets old.

Where regarding the bolded? That I said that those on 'the other side' may share your feelings regarding your side and how they see things, is NOT saying they're the same.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 01:54 PM

Fwiw, while pretty much all of the media out there sucks....

I think you posted a picture without quoting anyone, nor giving any actual opinion of whatever it was you were referring to - and that can lead to folks thinking things are personal when they may not be. I really don't know

I truly have no issue personally with anyone in the world, even liberals - my main issue is with politicians and our government and what they may be doing to us.
But we wouldn't have crazy radical liberals in government without crazy radical liberals voting for them. I see them as one and the same, in fact, the radical liberal politicians are nothing more than an extension of their crazy radical voters.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 01:59 PM

Where regarding the bolded?
I'm tired of this dance, Kathy, sorry, but when we NEVER see ANY reporting on all the GOOD things our president has done, just NON, STOP, BASHING... and I'm tired of it. It's old.

Yes I'll defend him, because what we're witnessing is unprecedented. The PILING ON on this president, we have NEVER seen a president treated like this EVER before, all while what he's done that's GOOD for this nation is ALSO unprecedented, UNMATCHED, by ANY president, yet the BASHING and INSULTS and LIES and BLOOD SHOOTING OUT PEOPLE'S EYES and HEADS EXPLODING about the SMALLEST, even FABRICATED BULL SHIT just goes ON, and ON, and ON, and ON... it is nothing short of DISGUSTING.

Kathianne

07-19-2018, 02:37 PM

I'm tired of this dance, Kathy, sorry, but when we NEVER see ANY reporting on all the GOOD things our president has done, just NON, STOP, BASHING... and I'm tired of it. It's old.

Yes I'll defend him, because what we're witnessing is unprecedented. The PILING ON on this president, we have NEVER seen a president treated like this EVER before, all while what he's done that's GOOD for this nation is ALSO unprecedented, UNMATCHED, by ANY president, yet the BASHING and INSULTS and LIES and BLOOD SHOOTING OUT PEOPLE'S EYES and HEADS EXPLODING about the SMALLEST, even FABRICATED BULL SHIT just goes ON, and ON, and ON, and ON... it is nothing short of DISGUSTING.

It's fine if that's how you see and feel, what isn't is to say I wrote something I didn't. If I did, fine, link it, but if you do find something that I said the right and left are equal when it comes to violence or inappropriate protest, I would have to claim temporary insanity, because I've never felt that way.

There's a world of difference between protesting at someone's office and stalking people at their homes or where they are dining, etc. There's never an excuse for breaking windows, etc. The right has never, to my knowledge, had any organized protest that led to such.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 03:29 PM

It's fine if that's how you see and feel, what isn't is to say I wrote something I didn't. If I did, fine, link it, but if you do find something that I said the right and left are equal when it comes to violence or inappropriate protest, I would have to claim temporary insanity, because I've never felt that way.

There's a world of difference between protesting at someone's office and stalking people at their homes or where they are dining, etc. There's never an excuse for breaking windows, etc. The right has never, to my knowledge, had any organized protest that led to such.
It's not the WAY I see, it's WHAT I see, and what I see is what happens, and there's no gray area about how unhinged the attacks on this president have been.

I know you haven't denied it's going on, but you also like to obfuscate the facts as though conservatives are on the same level as the radical democrats by saying, they both do it, but that's not admitting that the degree of which is vastly different. You also like to pick him apart. I understand. You don't like him. That's fine. That's all I'm saying.

It would go a long way towards ending this discussion if you would just admit that the radical democrats are far worse with their attacks on this president than anything that's happened to any other president. But if you can't, therein lies the problem. You're either in denial or just don't want to admit it, for whatever reason.

Kathianne

07-19-2018, 03:41 PM

It's not the WAY I see, it's WHAT I see, and what I see is what happens, and there's no gray area about how unhinged the attacks on this president have been.

I know you haven't denied it's going on, but you also like to obfuscate the facts as though conservatives are on the same level as the radical democrats by saying, they both do it, but that's not admitting that the degree of which is vastly different. You also like to pick him apart. I understand. You don't like him. That's fine. That's all I'm saying.

No, I don't like to obfuscate the 'facts' or claim the two sides are 'equally wrong.' What I am saying, not implying, is that both sides feel the other is evil. As you have certainly made clear regarding what you see regarding the left.

Unless something changes soon, I fear-not claim-there will be clashes between the extreme left and right. Both sides feel the other is Satan's spawn.

The extremes are claiming they are winning, they certainly are with elections. First Obama, now Trump.

The middle of each? Too many are 'a pox on both your houses.' Perhaps one day those that were Democrats and those that were Republicans will join forces and vote for like minded candidates. It hasn't happened yet.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 03:47 PM

No, I don't like to obfuscate the 'facts' or claim the two sides are 'equally wrong.' What I am saying, not implying, is that both sides feel the other is evil. As you have certainly made clear regarding what you see regarding the left.

Unless something changes soon, I fear-not claim-there will be clashes between the extreme left and right. Both sides feel the other is Satan's spawn.

The extremes are claiming they are winning, they certainly are with elections. First Obama, now Trump.

The middle of each? Too many are 'a pox on both your houses.' Perhaps one day those that were Democrats and those that were Republicans will join forces and vote for like minded candidates. It hasn't happened yet.
You still want to pretend that the blame is equal to both parties, and it's not.

And it's also not the extreme left or the extreme right, it's simply conservatives in a battle against democrat corruption, lies and radicalization.

Evidently we're beating a dead horse here, because you won't see my POV, and I certainly can't see your's.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 03:50 PM

And I haven't claimed to be a republican for over ten years now. When they ran Juan McLame for president, I registered as an independent.

I consider myself a constitutional conservative.

Kathianne

07-19-2018, 03:52 PM

You still want to pretend that the blame is equal to both parties, and it's not.

And it's also not the extreme left or the extreme right, it's simply conservatives in a battle against democrat corruption, lies and radicalization.

Evidently we're beating a dead horse here, because you won't see my POV, and I certainly can't see your's.

and you're claiming to be a mind reader, which you're not.

BTW, there's no 'pretending' that the battle is not where you've claimed it is.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 03:57 PM

and you're claiming to be a mind reader, which you're not.

BTW, there's no 'pretending' that the battle is not where you've claimed it is.
Oh yes, there is, Kathy, and you denying there's no battle going between conservatives and the radical left is telling. Therein lies the problem with us trying to connect on even the smallest point.

aboutime

07-19-2018, 04:19 PM

The battle is REAL, and taking place in reality for both me, and my wife.

We HAD good neighbor friends across the street for more than 20 years.
The day after Trump won, and they found out we voted for him.

THE FORMER FRIENDS, dropped us like hot potatoes. No more waving hello, no more conversations, no more sharing evenings around the barb...under the tree's.

Ugly looks, or intentional avoidance while outside has become the norm.

That is REAL. And the ignorance is getting deeper across this nation too!

Kathianne

07-19-2018, 04:36 PM

Oh yes, there is, Kathy, and you denying there's no battle going between conservatives and the radical left is telling. Therein lies the problem with us trying to connect on even the smallest point.

I SAID that there would be clashes between the extremes. The problem with those on the extreme ends, they think everyone needs to follow their leads. There are too many willing to do that, on both sides. That is where the 'equivalencies are.' IMO, the only hope is there are actually a greater number in the middle, eventually willing to tell the extremists, "No."

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 04:49 PM

I SAID that there would be clashes between the extremes. The problem with those on the extreme ends, they think everyone needs to follow their leads. There are too many willing to do that, on both sides. That is where the 'equivalencies are.' IMO, the only hope is there are actually a greater number in the middle, eventually willing to tell the extremists, "No."
Well tell me, Kath... who are the extreme ones on the right? What have they done, and what is so extreme about them?

Kathianne

07-19-2018, 04:57 PM

Well tell me, Kath... who are the extreme ones on the right? What have they done, and what is so extreme about them?

Look around. As with Obama, those that support 'he can do no wrong.' Even when proven that misspeaks weren't; truths were not quite; even honest mistakes are not acknowledged.

Birth certificates and tax returns come to mind-demands from the extremes. In both cases, much was made out of the issue before the elections, yet each WAS elected. In both cases, their enemies would not let go. The extremes are undermining our electoral system and are proud of it. Both sides have claimed the president has committed 'treason,' obviously without a clue to what it means, (though it's the only crime defined in the Constitution, as well as what is required to bring such a charge.)

I never thought I'd come to the conclusion that the system is failing and it's from within.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 05:07 PM

Look around. As with Obama, those that support 'he can do no wrong.' Even when proven that misspeaks weren't; truths were not quite; even honest mistakes are not acknowledged.

Birth certificates and tax returns come to mind-demands from the extremes. In both cases, much was made out of the issue before the elections, yet each WAS elected. In both cases, their enemies would not let go. The extremes are undermining our electoral system and are proud of it. Both sides have claimed the president has committed 'treason,' obviously without a clue to what it means, (though it's the only crime defined in the Constitution, as well as what is required to bring such a charge.)

I never thought I'd come to the conclusion that the system is failing and it's from within.
OK... one at a time... birth certificate, no doubt you're throwing that in there because of me, so how about you find me obama's real hard copy Hawaiian birth certificate. Prove to me I'm wrong, prove I'm "extreme." Then, I don't recall the right claiming obama committed treason. I don't remember seeing that drummed up on the news, non stop, with such fervor you'd think the nation was melting down. But if anyone did deserve to be accused of treason, it would have been obama. I don't recall president Trump loading up an airplane with pallets of cold hard cash and flying it into a country under the cover of darkness that is our enemy that chants death to America, like obama did. Your examples aren't what I expected, but then, I knew they wouldn't be either.

I don't think the "system" is failing, I think the democrats have gone off the rails. Course you don't see that so... that's why we're here having this discussion.

Kathianne

07-19-2018, 05:18 PM

OK... one at a time... birth certificate, no doubt you're throwing that in there because of me, so how about you find me obama's real hard copy Hawaiian birth certificate. Prove to me I'm wrong, prove I'm "extreme." Then, I don't recall the right claiming obama committed treason. I don't remember seeing that drummed up on the news, non stop, with such fervor you'd think the nation was melting down. But if anyone did deserve to be accused of treason, it would have been obama. I don't recall president Trump loading up an airplane with pallets of cold hard cash and flying it into a country under the cover of darkness that is our enemy that chants death to America, like obama did. Your examples aren't what I expected.

I don't think the "system" is failing, I think the democrats have gone off the rails. Course you don't see that so... that's why we're here having this discussion.

No this 'discussion,' is because I don't agree with you on all points.

I've said i like many of the things that Trump has accomplished economically; I like his judicial choices; I even like some of his foreign speeches-though not Helsinki, not when he sounds like he might renege on NATO and Article 5-though the only time it was invoked was 9/11, not when he criticizes allies in public and out of the country.

So, while I don't like the man, it does seem like mostly I like what he's done. Liberal I am not.

I don't have to 'prove' anything about Obama's birth certificate; indeed neither did he once elected, it made the point moot.

Trump did not commit treason in Helsinki; nor did Obama while President.

IMO, extremists are those that throw around 'evil', traitorous; and other inflammatory statements-and it's not just coming from the right nor from the left. It's not just conservatives or liberals. The ones not doing it are dropping out altogether or appalled-they are not coming together either, which will lead to one of the extremes 'winning.' If it's your team, it'll be grand.

aboutime

07-19-2018, 05:38 PM

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS2nwxkch9GfSR-3jLAIvxIj3CIa5pi9hDRPd_6ve0zj9NKW8-JQA

Gunny

07-19-2018, 05:49 PM

Kathianne: to respond to your question. The only response you are going to get is you hate Trump. The right has turned into the left. I see no difference in behavior between one side and the other. You're 100% for or 100% against for BOTH sides. Used to be the right stood for being against that mentality. Until they adopted it. Now it's okay.

It wasn't okay for Obama to make enemies of our allies and allies of our enemies, but it IS okay if Trump does it. Unions sucked to the right ]until Trump decided to artificially prop up an industry that can't compete fairly on the world market and strong-arm the World, to include US consumers, into footing the bill. Now over-priced-and-paid union industry is okay :rolleyes:

The World doesn't agree with paying for it? They suck. But Putin's okay because he has no dog in the fight. Why should he care? He's probably amused more than anything.

I'd hate to be one of our so-called "allies" in the ME right now with Putin flexing his muscle and Trump doing nothing but talking.

It wasn't okay to f- over our allies when Obama did it, and it's not okay now.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 05:52 PM

No this 'discussion,' is because I don't agree with you on all points.

I've said i like many of the things that Trump has accomplished economically; I like his judicial choices; I even like some of his foreign speeches-though not Helsinki, not when he sounds like he might renege on NATO and Article 5-though the only time it was invoked was 9/11, not when he criticizes allies in public and out of the country.

So, while I don't like the man, it does seem like mostly I like what he's done. Liberal I am not.

I don't have to 'prove' anything about Obama's birth certificate; indeed neither did he once elected, it made the point moot.

Trump did not commit treason in Helsinki; nor did Obama while President.

IMO, extremists are those that throw around 'evil', traitorous; and other inflammatory statements-and it's not just coming from the right nor from the left. It's not just conservatives or liberals. The ones not doing it are dropping out altogether or appalled-they are not coming together either, which will lead to one of the extremes 'winning.' If it's your team, it'll be grand.
Well you're the one that said it was the "extreme right" that didn't believe obama was born in Hawaii. Actually it's very mainstream. I mean, he's gone, we don't have to pretend that pathetic forgery he posted online was real anymore.

I think maybe we should take a look at NATO now, don't you? I mean the cold war is over. If you had thirteen kids and seven of them grew up and moved out of your house, would you want to continue paying their bills?

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 05:55 PM

The right has turned into the left. I see no difference in behavior between one side and the other.
That's astonishing... even though I know you don't like president Trump either.

Tell me, when was the last time you saw non stop protests by conservatives wearing pussy hats saying FUCK (name a democrat), and that they wanted to BLOW UP THE WHITE HOUSE?

What cities can you list that are governed by conservatives that the streets are covered with SHIT and NEEDLES and HOMELESS PEOPLE and ILLEGAL ALIENS?

When have conservatives railed against law enforcement?

When did conservatives advocate for open borders?

What conservative news channel ever called obama "POOPY PANTS?"

You see "no difference?" Unreal...

Kathianne

07-19-2018, 06:15 PM

Well you're the one that said it was the "extreme right" that didn't believe obama was born in Hawaii. Actually it's very mainstream. I mean, he's gone, we don't have to pretend that pathetic forgery he posted online was real anymore.

I think maybe we should take a look at NATO now, don't you? I mean the cold war is over. If you had thirteen kids and seven of them grew up and moved out of your house, would you want to continue paying their bills?

No. Perhaps you've missed it, but NATO was a response to Russian aggression, Cold War or not, that hasn't stopped.

Now when it comes to them paying more? Sure, that would be good. Ditching the organization, waffling on pledged defense? No.

While the US pays more than its share, we also have used that to establish military bases where we want them. Not mentioned.

How much is the US paying of NATO? 22%. Indirect funding tends more to the countries in Europe, which increases their share, which doesn't show up in their percentages of 'direct funding.':

https://www.nato.int/cps/ie/natohq/topics_67655.htm

Gunny

07-19-2018, 06:26 PM

That's astonishing... even though I know you don't like president Trump either.

Tell me, when was the last time you saw non stop protests by conservatives wearing pussy hats saying FUCK (name a democrat), and that they wanted to BLOW UP THE WHITE HOUSE?

What cities can you list that are governed by conservatives that the streets are covered with SHIT and NEEDLES and HOMELESS PEOPLE and ILLEGAL ALIENS?I don't know. When did we start deciding who gets to protest and how? What the left is doing does NOT excuse bad behavior on the right. Not with me.

Kathianne's question was a legitimate one and all she got was a bunch of Trumpy BS for answers but no real answer. Whether or not I personally dislike Trump is also irrelevant. I give him credit where it's due. I think he's a pompous ass as a person. I can differentiate between one and the other. Apparently, more than a few cannot.

But all this Ooh-rah shit? Trump this Trump that? Here's what's REALLY happening. People like me are being turned off by people telling us we hate Trump because we don't worship him. That we dare say he is wrong. Dare question his obviously stupid shit. The end result will be me sitting home next election and I won't be alone. And Trump, regardless all the hype and sis-boom-ba Screamin' Eagle shit needs every vote he can get. He IS beatable.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 06:27 PM

No. Perhaps you've missed it, but NATO was a response to Russian aggression, Cold War or not, that hasn't stopped.

Now when it comes to them paying more? Sure, that would be good. Ditching the organization, waffling on pledged defense? No.

While the US pays more than its share, we also have used that to establish military bases where we want them. Not mentioned.

How much is the US paying of NATO? 22%. Indirect funding tends more to the countries in Europe, which increases their share, which doesn't show up in their percentages of 'direct funding.':

https://www.nato.int/cps/ie/natohq/topics_67655.htm
Well... we can disagree on that. I do think it wouldn't hurt to take a look at NATO. Yes it was formed because of Russian aggression, but honestly, do you think Russia is going to attack Europe now? NATO was formed so that there would be a deterrent after WWII, correct? https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/nato

I don't know there's still a need for the same alignment today. I don't honestly know.

Would we still want to send in our troops to fight and die and go to full scale war though if Russia attacked say Albania, or Latvia? WOULD Russia attack Albania or Latvia? IDK... but at the "risk" of using a cavalier example, the game "RISK" is about taking over the world, and the object of the game is to take over the world, and you can't do that without expansion.

Gunny

07-19-2018, 06:30 PM

Well... we can disagree on that. I do think it wouldn't hurt to take a look at NATO. Yes it was formed because of Russian aggression, but honestly, do you think Russia is going to attack Europe now? NATO was formed so that there would be a deterrent after WWII, correct? https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/nato

I don't know there's still a need for the same alignment today. I don't honestly know.

Would we still want to send in our troops to fight and die and go to full scale war though if Russia attacked say Albania, or Latvia? WOULD Russia attack Albania or Latvia? IDK... but at the "risk" of using a cavalier example, the game "RISK" is about taking over the world, and the object of the game is to take over the world, and you can't do that without expansion.Ukraine is part of Europe.

Kathianne

07-19-2018, 06:31 PM

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 06:36 PM

I don't know. When did we start deciding who gets to protest and how? What the left is doing does NOT excuse bad behavior on the right. Not with me.

Kathianne's question was a legitimate one and all she got was a bunch of Trumpy BS for answers but no real answer. Whether or not I personally dislike Trump is also irrelevant. I give him credit where it's due. I think he's a pompous ass as a person. I can differentiate between one and the other. Apparently, more than a few cannot.

But all this Ooh-rah shit? Trump this Trump that? Here's what's REALLY happening. People like me are being turned off by people telling us we hate Trump because we don't worship him. That we dare say he is wrong. Dare question his obviously stupid shit. The end result will be me sitting home next election and I won't be alone. And Trump, regardless all the hype and sis-boom-ba Screamin' Eagle shit needs every vote he can get. He IS beatable.
You LIKE the protests do you? You think it's all just great stuff... all the pussy hats... the let's blow up the white house... the fuck Trump... you think that's OK?

And if you're accusing me of "Trumpy BS," please show me where I was BULL SHITTING.

And I FAR from WORSHIP him. You're spreading some hyperbole of your own there, Gunny. Your hate for the man is coming through loud and clear.

I see "praise president Trump's accomplishments - BAD - you WORSHIP him and your SIS BOOM BAAH SHIT is STUPID, you're a DUMBASS... I don't want to HEAR IT," coming from you. You might differentiate the good things he's done from some gaff he might have made, but you're all too quick to jump on the bad and rub it in just like a democrat. Why did I say democrat, because it also sounds like you'd LIKE to see him get beat. Hell why not... let's go back to the OBAMA DAYS of MASSIVE UNEMPLOYMENT, THOSE JOBS AREN'T COMING BACK, THE COPS ACTED STUPIDLY, RIOTS, BURNING DOWN TOWNS, MILLIONS MORE ON FOOD STAMPS, DOUBLING THE NATIONAL DEBT... maaaaan...

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 06:37 PM

Ukraine is part of Europe.
Well, that was on the kenyan's watch.

Kathianne

07-19-2018, 06:40 PM

Looking at Russian aggression prior to Trump:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/12/30/yes-russias-military-is-getting-more-aggressive/

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 06:48 PM

Looking at Russian aggression prior to Trump:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/12/30/yes-russias-military-is-getting-more-aggressive/
That was 4 years ago... again, under obama's watch, so it's understandable. Putin knew damn well obama was a pussy.

Kathianne

07-19-2018, 06:52 PM

That was 4 years ago... again, under obama's watch, so it's understandable. Putin knew damn well obama was a pussy.

So Russia has pacified now? It shouldn't be us that is concerned, Putin should be concerned about our strongman, is that it? That would be a good thing? Problems disappeared with an election?

If only.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 06:59 PM

So Russia has pacified now? It shouldn't be us that is concerned, Putin should be concerned about our strongman, is that it? That would be a good thing? Problems disappeared with an election?

If only.
You think Putin considers president Trump to be the same push over obama was?

You think Putin thinks that Trumps response to any Russian aggression will be the exact thing obama would have done?

Have we seen any Russian fighter jets buzzing American war ships lately?

C'mooon...

Gunny

07-19-2018, 07:06 PM

You LIKE the protests do you? You think it's all just great stuff... all the pussy hats... the let's blow up the white house... the fuck Trump... you think that's OK?

And if you're accusing me of "Trumpy BS," please show me where I was BULL SHITTING.

And I FAR from WORSHIP him. You're spreading some hyperbole of your own there, Gunny. Your hate for the man is coming through loud and clear.

I see "praise president Trump's accomplishments - BAD - you WORSHIP him and your SIS BOOM BAAH SHIT is STUPID, you're a DUMBASS... I don't want to HEAR IT," coming from you. You might differentiate the good things he's done from some gaff he might have made, but you're all too quick to jump on the bad and rub it in just like a democrat. Why did I say democrat, because it also sounds like you'd LIKE to see him get beat. Hell why not... let's go back to the OBAMA DAYS of MASSIVE UNEMPLOYMENT, THOSE JOBS AREN'T COMING BACK, THE COPS ACTED STUPIDLY, RIOTS, BURNING DOWN TOWNS, MILLIONS MORE ON FOOD STAMPS, DOUBLING THE NATIONAL DEBT... maaaaan...I think I've already stated on more than two occasions throughout the years that I don't like protests. Picking out one thing one side does and the other doesn't, in the same fashion, and deflecting to THAT being the argument is irrelevant to the original argument. Every argument does not begin and end with "the left sucks because it's worse" and/or cherrypicking your argument.

I don't like a lot of things the right does either, but they have the right to. Remember that thing called the US Constitution?

The question is, why is it okay for Trump to cozy up to Putin while throwing our intelligence community under the bus? Why is it okay for Trump to start a trade war with the world, with his usual insults toward them, so he can artificially prop up an industry that failed because it couldn't compete on the world market at the world's expense (to include ours)? For votes? Because THAT is why he did it. Now what's he going to do about the votes he's going to lose in agriculture because farmers bear the brunt of his trade war? They're poor already.

Those are issues. Whether or not the left is stupid for dancing naked in the street is not an answer, and the overwhelming response to any such question already known.

Kathianne

07-19-2018, 07:08 PM

You think Putin considers president Trump to be the same push over obama was?

You think Putin thinks that Trumps response to any Russian aggression will be the exact thing obama would have done?

Have we seen any Russian fighter jets buzzing American war ships lately?

C'mooon...

Forgive the sources, please, pretty please!

May of this year:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2018/05/12/u-s-jets-intercept-pair-of-russian-bombers-off-alaskan-coast/?utm_term=.ae5a5d70f983

April last year:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/04/21/russian-planes-buzz-alaska-four-nights-in-a-row/

Do I think Russia is trying to 'invade' or 'physically attack' the US? No. Do I think it is an expansionist threat to its neighbors and has sights on ME and beyond? Yes. It's not in our interests to allow or ignore.

Gunny

07-19-2018, 07:11 PM

aboutime

07-19-2018, 07:17 PM

Personally. I no longer care what anyone who hates our President thinks about him, or his foreign policy efforts...namely, with Russia, and N.K.

NATO was established to allow the protection of ALL nations from being invaded, or overrun by people like Putin. We...The USA, are part of NATO, and we are sworn to protect EVERY OTHER MEMBER of NATO. PERIOD!

Any American....and I do mean ANY, who doesn't like what our president is doing, or you hate him for any number of reasons...has the RIGHT to disagree, or hate him as much as they like, or want.
IF ANY AMERICAN...such as the Hollyweird Elites, joined by the Snowflake (Sky is Falling), uninformed, easily led Americans who constantly must be negative, and full of hatred wants....THEY DO HAVE THE RIGHT....also....TO LEAVE. Or, wait until the next Election, and vote for the SOCIALIST WUSSY you like. Meanwhile. THIS IS AMERICA. We all live with WHO WE VOTE FOR. If you don't like it. TOO BAD! We had to remain satisfied while OBAMA destroyed our nation. NOW YOU DO THE SAME.

Gunny

07-19-2018, 07:24 PM

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 07:34 PM

I don't like a lot of things the right does either, but they have the right to.
Like what?

The question is, why is it okay for Trump to cozy up to Putin while throwing our intelligence community under the bus?
Did you miss the part about our "intelligence community" using corrupt means to try to sabotage Trumps campaign, and now his presidency, all instigated on pure unadulterated hatred and lies? Why should he trust them? When did the IC community become this entity that was beyond reproach, to never be questioned, the GODS of purity? I see corruption in the IC that's beyond comprehension. Trump is right not to trust them, and I wouldn't either.

Why is it okay for Trump to start a trade war with the world,
WHO started a trade war? Is it still your belief that all was fine and dandy as the rest of the world SCREWED America with THEIR tariffs ON US?

so he can artificially prop up an industry that failed because it couldn't compete on the world market at the world's expense
Again, major steel mills are gearing up to start producing American steel again. But why did they fail in the first place? Because of OBAMA and his unbelievable regulations, regulations that president Trump has DELETED. And who was it that "propped up" Detriot? Obama.

Now what's he going to do about the votes he's going to lose in agriculture because farmers bear the brunt of his trade war? They're poor already.
So Canada's 270% tariff on our dairy industry is just fine with you? You think that should be left alone? You don't think THAT is hurting our farmers?

Those are issues. Whether or not the left is stupid for dancing naked in the street is not an answer, and the overwhelming response to any such question already known.
Where's your patience? You think these things can just be fixed in seconds by waving a magic wand? It takes time, and it takes someone with guts to fix it.

Kathianne

07-19-2018, 07:54 PM

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 08:00 PM

Russia pacified?

https://hotair.com/archives/2018/07/19/uk-police-identify-russian-suspects-novichok-poisoning/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-trump-salisbury-poisoning-putin-novichok-nerve-agent-nato-boris-johnson-a8452821.html

After the poisonings Trump first doubted, then agreed to sanctions. One of which was rescinding the invite to Putin for meeting in US. Before that happened though, there were concerns about the two level messages being sent, one level Trump; the other the rest of US government:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/04/02/will-the-real-trump-russia-policy-please-stand-up-putin-meeting/
No president has been tougher on Russia than president Trump.

But wouldn't it help if we could read all the intelligence reports on Russia that are classified, secret and top secret? But we can't. Anybody can arm chair quarterback and second guess about would'a, could'a, should'a.

Maybe we should all calm down and see how this all turns out, but I know that's virtually asking the impossible considering the unhinged blind hatred the democrat propaganda wing has for Trump.

Gunny

07-19-2018, 08:09 PM

Like what?

Did you miss the part about our "intelligence community" using corrupt means to try to sabotage Trumps campaign, and now his presidency, all instigated on pure unadulterated hatred and lies? Why should he trust them? When did the IC community become this entity that was beyond reproach, to never be questioned, the GODS of purity? I see corruption in the IC that's beyond comprehension. Trump is right not to trust them, and I wouldn't either.

WHO started a trade war? Is it still your belief that all was fine and dandy as the rest of the world SCREWED America with THEIR tariffs ON US?

Again, major steel mills are gearing up to start producing American steel again. But why did they fail in the first place? Because of OBAMA and his unbelievable regulations, regulations that president Trump has DELETED. And who was it that "propped up" Detriot? Obama.

So Canada's 270% tariff on our dairy industry is just fine with you? You think that should be left alone? You don't think THAT is hurting our farmers?

Where's your patience? You think these things can just be fixed in seconds by waving a magic wand? It takes time, and it takes someone with guts to fix it.

Redo your response if you want one from me. Minus the sentence by sentence breakdown. I don't play expand-a-post.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 08:16 PM

Redo your response if you want one from me. Minus the sentence by sentence breakdown. I don't play expand-a-post.

Oh for Christ sake... whatever... there's nothing wrong to "fix" so forget it.

Kathianne

07-19-2018, 08:22 PM

No president has been tougher on Russia than president Trump.

But wouldn't it help if we could read all the intelligence reports on Russia that classified, secret and top secret? But we can't. Anybody can arm quarterback and second guess about would'a, could'a, should'a.

Maybe we should all calm down and see how this all turns out, but I know that's virtually asking the impossible considering the unhinged blind hatred the democrat propaganda wing has for Trump.

Here's the thing, I know I'm not an 'unhinged democrat', nor am I part of any propaganda wing-right or left. I don't think Gunny hates Trump, I'm pretty sure he voted for him.

I do NOT hate Trump, I just thought and think he's unfit by his character to be President. Many more disagreed and he was fairly elected. I get that. I also like some of the results of what he's done, including appointments, rolling back Obama executive orders, tax relief, even some things he's done regarding foreign affairs. I don't have a problem with his trying to get allies to pay more of their share, whether for own defense or through alliances. I'm with Gunny on the trade war things, and your comment about steel industry going to pot under Obama is just laughable, (sorry, but it is). The steel industry was falling apart by the end of the 60's, dying by mid-70's, a result of their failing in the 50's and early 60's to invest in upgrading their industry and grabbing the profits.

There is nothing the 'left' has said or done or protested that has convinced me a whit that there lies my answer to Trump. If they put up someone that I think was better, yes, I would vote for him/her. That is unlikely since even Bernie Sanders doesn't seem to be acceptable enough in his socialism.

There's so much talk about the evil 'left' and 'spawn of satan' and the MSM and fake news. What there is a total lack of is any attempt to persuade those that fear Trump's character, including his need for adulation, to consider that he's grown in office. That he cares about the US, as you repeatedly says he does, in the sense that you don't bad mouth your own appointees, past presidents, etc., overseas. To. our. enemy. Which Russia is. Putin too. Yes, improving that would be good, but it's very difficult to reconcile the smash machine that is Trump with allied leaders with the kowtowing we saw with Putin.

Not one of his 'supporters' in the media-truly took him to task. Politicians on the right, sort of did, but then chalked it up to 'novice.' Except Rand Paul, who wants to Bork his SCOTUS nominee, so is probably doing the ass kissing over Putin.

Gunny

07-19-2018, 08:45 PM

Oh for Christ sake... whatever... there's nothing wrong to "fix" so forget it.First off, there're are lots of things to "fix".

That "expand-a-post" crap line-by-line just takes the context out of the statement. I quit bothering with it years ago. It's annoying, and never worth the effort.

That aside, my ability to concentrate is sorely taxed since I had that stroke. It requires a lot of effort, and see last sentence, previous paragraph.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 08:50 PM

Here's the thing, I know I'm not an 'unhinged democrat', nor am I part of any propaganda wing-right or left. I don't think Gunny hates Trump, I'm pretty sure he voted for him.

I do NOT hate Trump, I just thought and think he's unfit by his character to be President. Many more disagreed and he was fairly elected. I get that. I also like some of the results of what he's done, including appointments, rolling back Obama executive orders, tax relief, even some things he's done regarding foreign affairs. I don't have a problem with his trying to get allies to pay more of their share, whether for own defense or through alliances. I'm with Gunny on the trade war things, and your comment about steel industry going to pot under Obama is just laughable, (sorry, but it is). The steel industry was falling apart by the end of the 60's, dying by mid-70's, a result of their failing in the 50's and early 60's to invest in upgrading their industry and grabbing the profits.

There is nothing the 'left' has said or done or protested that has convinced me a whit that there lies my answer to Trump. If they put up someone that I think was better, yes, I would vote for him/her. That is unlikely since even Bernie Sanders doesn't seem to be acceptable enough in his socialism.

There's so much talk about the evil 'left' and 'spawn of satan' and the MSM and fake news. What there is a total lack of is any attempt to persuade those that fear Trump's character, including his need for adulation, to consider that he's grown in office. That he cares about the US, as you repeatedly says he does, in the sense that you don't bad mouth your own appointees, past presidents, etc., overseas. To. our. enemy. Which Russia is. Putin too. Yes, improving that would be good, but it's very difficult to reconcile the smash machine that is Trump with allied leaders with the kowtowing we saw with Putin.

Not one of his 'supporters' in the media-truly took him to task. Politicians on the right, sort of did, but then chalked it up to 'novice.' Except Rand Paul, who wants to Bork his SCOTUS nominee, so is probably doing the ass kissing over Putin.
I never accused you of being an unhinged democrat, Kathy, nor do I think you are. I reference them not meaning you're included. But you do love to nit pick Trump apart. And Gunny, he's said he hates Trump, point blank, he despises the man. But "unfit to be president?" Wow... that's... whatever. I think Trump is one smart man, and I think he'll go down in history as one of the best presidents this nation has ever seen. And this isn't just me talking, it's everyone that voted for him. There has to be a reason for that. I'm sorry it escapes you.

"Fear Trump's character"... "his need for adulation"... "smash machine?" All I can say to that is... sounds like hyperbole to me. And I guess I just can't see this "kowtowing" you speak of either. I saw diplomacy. Maybe had he presented Putin with a little red plastic RESET BUTTON, you'd have given him more credit.

So the steel industry didn't fall apart under obama, but he didn't help it either, or the coal industry... "those jobs just aren't coming back," sound familiar, and all because of his over the top restrictive regulations. Looks like Trump DID have that "magic wand" obama thought he needed to bring back jobs.

Yes I do believe president Trump loves America. Can you point out anything he's done that would prove otherwise? He surely didn't campaign saying he wanted to "fundamentally transform America." Only someone who has disdain for America would say such an outlandish thing.

Now HERE'S THE THING... this entire conversation has been approached by two opposing views, one person sees things their way, the other person sees it another. It's called perception, and ones perception is influenced by that they believe. You clearly stated you don't think president Trump is fit to be president, so naturally all your opinions are going to be colored by that belief. I do think he's fit, so I don't share your perception.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 08:51 PM

First off, there're are lots of things to "fix".

That "expand-a-post" crap line-by-line just takes the context out of the statement. I quit bothering with it years ago. It's annoying, and never worth the effort.

That aside, my ability to concentrate is sorely taxed since I had that stroke. It requires a lot of effort, and see last sentence, previous paragraph.
Sorry... I'll try and remember that.

Kathianne

07-19-2018, 08:57 PM

I never accused you of being an unhinged democrat, Kathy, nor do I think you are. I reference them not meaning you're included. But you do love to nit pick him apart. And Gunny, he's said he hates Trump, point blank, he despises the man. But "unfit to be president?" Wow... that's... whatever. I think Trump is one smart man, and I think he'll go down in history as one of the best presidents this nation has ever seen. And this isn't just me talking, it's everyone that voted for him. There has to be a reason for that. I'm sorry it escapes you.

"Fear Trump's character"... "his need for adulation"... "smash machine?" All I can say to that is... sounds like hyperbole to me. And I guess I just can't see this "kowtowing" you speak of either. I saw diplomacy. Maybe had he presented Putin with a little red plastic RESET BUTTON, you'd have given him more credit.

So the steel industry didn't fall apart under obama, but he didn't help it either, or the coal industry... "those jobs just aren't coming back," sound familiar, and all because of his over the top restrictive regulations.

Yes I do believe president Trump loves America. Can you point out anything he's done that would prove otherwise? He surely didn't campaign saying he wanted to "fundamentally transform America." Only someone who has disdain for America would say such an outlandish thing.

Now HERE'S THE THING... this entire conversation has been approached by two opposing views, one person sees things their way, the other person sees it another. It's called perception, and ones perception is influenced by that they believe. You clearly stated you don't think president Trump is fit to be president, so naturally all your opinions are going to be colored by that belief. I do think he's fit, so I don't share your perception.

I believe 100% your praise of him and that someone that's not a crazy liberal not only disagrees, but cannot envision ever voting for the man is not comprehensible to you.

I've listed many of the things I'm happy about, that I give credit to Trump for. Other than some of his tweets, you see absolutely no missteps, no concerns?

That actually was one of my problems with Obama supporters, no matter how flagrant his failures, they maintained support and denial of any problems. There is not 1 thing, not 1, that I felt Obama did that benefited the country. Trump on the other hand, started off with a great rollback of executive orders and has, (as I've repeatedly written), accomplished many other successes.

Gunny

07-19-2018, 09:04 PM

I never accused you of being an unhinged democrat, Kathy, nor do I think you are. I reference them not meaning you're included. But you do love to nit pick Trump apart. And Gunny, he's said he hates Trump, point blank, he despises the man. But "unfit to be president?" Wow... that's... whatever. I think Trump is one smart man, and I think he'll go down in history as one of the best presidents this nation has ever seen. And this isn't just me talking, it's everyone that voted for him. There has to be a reason for that. I'm sorry it escapes you.

"Fear Trump's character"... "his need for adulation"... "smash machine?" All I can say to that is... sounds like hyperbole to me. And I guess I just can't see this "kowtowing" you speak of either. I saw diplomacy. Maybe had he presented Putin with a little red plastic RESET BUTTON, you'd have given him more credit.

So the steel industry didn't fall apart under obama, but he didn't help it either, or the coal industry... "those jobs just aren't coming back," sound familiar, and all because of his over the top restrictive regulations. Looks like Trump DID have that "magic wand" obama thought he needed to bring back jobs.

Yes I do believe president Trump loves America. Can you point out anything he's done that would prove otherwise? He surely didn't campaign saying he wanted to "fundamentally transform America." Only someone who has disdain for America would say such an outlandish thing.

Now HERE'S THE THING... this entire conversation has been approached by two opposing views, one person sees things their way, the other person sees it another. It's called perception, and ones perception is influenced by that they believe. You clearly stated you don't think president Trump is fit to be president, so naturally all your opinions are going to be colored by that belief. I do think he's fit, so I don't share your perception.

I have never even ONCE said I hated Trump. I rarely use the word hate at all. It's overused and has no meaning anymore but it still does to me.

I have repeatedly said I don't PERSONALLY like him. I haven't liked him since the early 80s. He's a pompous ass and spends way too much time tooting his own horn. He always has and still does. I don't like ANYONE like that so it isn't even personal.

I shouldn't have to explain this each and every time I disagree with Trump. Do I need to put it in my sig? People remember everything else others say from years ago, but for some reason, that simple statement above doesn't last any longer than it takes to read it. Bet you could tell me who you think I have naked pics of from USMB. How many years ago was THAT?

I am hyper-critical of myself. That means NO ONE has a get out of jail free card. Especially a politician and MORE especially if I voted for his ass. He has the right to represent me, not embarrass me.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 09:14 PM

I've listed many of the things I'm happy about, that I give credit to Trump for. Other than some of his tweets, you see absolutely no missteps, no concerns?
Yes... there's been a few things he's done that I totally disagreed with, and I've made that absolutely clear here on this board, more than once. In fact I started a thread about one of the things...

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?62306-Trump-SIGNS-HORRENDOUS-OMNIBUS-Spending-Bill&highlight=

I've also commented that I think some of his tweets are little... off color, even sophomoric.

I just give the man the benefit of the doubt, seeing as he's had to endure the most horrendous, daily attacks like no other president in history has had to endure. If he screws up, and concern is warranted, I'll be on it. But as president, I think he's doing an OUTSTANDING job. It's been HISTORIC so far. He has EXCEEDED what ALL other presidents have done in their first tems in his first term.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 09:22 PM

I have repeatedly said I don't PERSONALLY like him. I haven't liked him since the early 80s. He's a pompous ass and spends way too much time tooting his own horn. He always has and still does. I don't like ANYONE like that so it isn't even personal.
OK... you think he's a pompous ass... done.

Bet you could tell me who you think I have naked pics of from USMB. How many years ago was THAT?
I have no idea what you're even talking about.

aboutime

07-19-2018, 09:24 PM

Who among all of the members of DP...is qualified to be President of the United States?

I am convinced, no matter who lives in the White House. Because you call yourself an American...does not make it a Right to make a fool of yourself with Liberal Thinking, that can, and will work to destroy the only Country We have.

Anybody here better than our President? Please identify yourself.
Then tell us why you didn't run.

I am thankful for growing older. Knowing there a few years left when I am constantly ignored for telling the TRUTH about the SELFISHNESS of many AMERICANS who should be ashamed of themselves for acting like children.
I don't expect anyone to respond to this. But, I will no longer be providing any of what I have learned, only to be ignored because I tell the truth, and some just HATE THAT.

Gunny

07-19-2018, 09:28 PM

Yes... there's been a few things he's done that I totally disagreed with, and I've made that absolutely clear here on this board, more than once. In fact I started a thread about one of the things...

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?62306-Trump-SIGNS-HORRENDOUS-OMNIBUS-Spending-Bill&highlight=

I've also commented that I think some of his tweets are little... off color, even sophomoric.

I just give the man the benefit of the doubt, seeing as he's had to endure the most horrendous, daily attacks like no other president in history has had to endure. If he screws up, and concern is warranted, I'll be on it. But as president, I think he's doing an OUTSTANDING job. It's been HISTORIC so far. He has EXCEEDED what ALL other presidents have done in their first tems in his first term.I've given him benefit of doubt. That's not the same as rolling with the flow. Benefit of doubt has a REALLY thin line when he's screwing with the World.

I would say playing pattycakes with Putin after slamming everyone else with tariffs might be good diplomacy for Putin, but not to or for anyone else.

Kathianne

07-19-2018, 09:34 PM

Yes... there's been a few things he's done that I totally disagreed with, and I've made that absolutely clear here on this board, more than once. In fact I started a thread about one of the things...

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?62306-Trump-SIGNS-HORRENDOUS-OMNIBUS-Spending-Bill&highlight=

I've also commented that I think some of his tweets are little... off color, even sophomoric.

I just give the man the benefit of the doubt, seeing as he's had to endure the most horrendous, daily attacks like no other president in history has had to endure. If he screws up, and concern is warranted, I'll be on it. But as president, I think he's doing an OUTSTANDING job. It's been HISTORIC so far. He has EXCEEDED what ALL other presidents have done in their first tems in his first term.

I'd meant to write, 'other than his tweets,' though it seems for the most part most find those endearing.

You were right about the omnibus, it was and is a massive spending boondoggle, but again it seems that everyone that was 'upset' came around to his really being an excellent chess master.

I think I'd be less concerned if there was such a cult-like approval flank for all he does. It is what it is though and thus my concerns.

Just to be clear, none of this means that I give support to what comes from the left, my criticisms of Trump are not driven by that or MSM criticisms.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 09:34 PM

Gunny

07-19-2018, 09:38 PM

High_Plains_Drifter

07-19-2018, 09:41 PM

I'd meant to write, 'other than his tweets,' though it seems for the most part most find those endearing.

You were right about the omnibus, it was and is a massive spending boondoggle, but again it seems that everyone that was 'upset' came around to his really being an excellent chess master.

I think I'd be less concerned if there was such a cult-like approval flank for all he does. It is what it is though and thus my concerns.

Just to be clear, none of this means that I give support to what comes from the left, my criticisms of Trump are not driven by that or MSM criticisms.
Sometimes I think we argue just for the sake of an argument. That is why we're here, is it not?

Or debate, call it what you will.

My point is and has been, simply, that this president has been getting STOMPED, just MAULED, KICK AND SPIT ON DAILY by the radical left wing, and just like Gunny says he hates any pompous ass, I hate it when someone gets ganged up on, and I think that's the feeling most of his supporters have also, thus why his support has not wavered, in fact has increased. It gets my hackles up when I see this one thing right after another, the vast majority being nothing more than democrats and their latest FAKE outrage. I could go on youtube right now and find HUNDREDS of videos of the left just CRUCIFYING Trump, and it's the most over the top, outrageous garbage I've ever heard in my life. It pisses me off.

Black Diamond

07-19-2018, 10:09 PM

Black Diamond

07-19-2018, 10:24 PM

@Kathianne (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=8): to respond to your question. The only response you are going to get is you hate Trump. The right has turned into the left. I see no difference in behavior between one side and the other. You're 100% for or 100% against for BOTH sides. Used to be the right stood for being against that mentality. Until they adopted it. Now it's okay.

It wasn't okay for Obama to make enemies of our allies and allies of our enemies, but it IS okay if Trump does it. Unions sucked to the right ]until Trump decided to artificially prop up an industry that can't compete fairly on the world market and strong-arm the World, to include US consumers, into footing the bill. Now over-priced-and-paid union industry is okay :rolleyes:

The World doesn't agree with paying for it? They suck. But Putin's okay because he has no dog in the fight. Why should he care? He's probably amused more than anything.

I'd hate to be one of our so-called "allies" in the ME right now with Putin flexing his muscle and Trump doing nothing but talking.

It wasn't okay to f- over our allies when Obama did it, and it's not okay now.
I've been against jobs leaving America for 30+ years. I would rather have union jobs here than have those Mfg jobs go to Mexico or China. That doesn't make me Jimmy Hoffa, Jr and I didn't change my mind suddenly because I fell for Donald Trump.
Iran doesn't equal Russia. We were not on a good path with Russia the last couple years of Obama's administration and it would have escalated had Hillary won. If Western European "allies" are going to side with Iran and other Arab nations over Israel....

Abbey Marie

07-20-2018, 12:01 AM

I've given him benefit of doubt. That's not the same as rolling with the flow. Benefit of doubt has a REALLY thin line when he's screwing with the World.

I would say playing pattycakes with Putin after slamming everyone else with tariffs might be good diplomacy for Putin, but not to or for anyone else.

You said above you haven’t liked him since the early 80s. When did you give him this benefit of the doubt? In the 70s?

Kathianne

07-20-2018, 12:03 AM

You said above you haven’t liked him since the early 80s. When did you give him this benefit of the doubt? In the 70s?

He did vote for him. Doesn't that count?

Black Diamond

07-20-2018, 12:04 AM

You said above you haven’t liked him since the early 80s. When did you give him this benefit of the doubt? In the 70s?
When trump was a cadet. :laugh:

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

07-20-2018, 08:55 AM

Bad performance in front of a Russian leader, to the point of being treasonous? Hell, this isn't even in the top five:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBjWBUiHDb8

Brilliant truth given. Every point he made was truth and dead on the mark, be it about Trump and/or about the hero of left/dem obama.
When will the blinded, ignorant, do not give a damn , selfish self-serving , dem prone and gullible Americans wake up to the glaring fact that the Dem party work tirelessly against the security, welfare and prosperity of this nation? Thus making the dem party a true enemy of this nation!
That folks, is the undeniable truth--a glaring fact. That is the reality.
We need to stop thinking in a pre 1960'S sixties mode.

IT IS NO LONGER THE USUAL POLITICS AS USUAL GOING ON NOW.. IT IS A SUBVERTED ENTITY(THE DEM PARTY IN COLLUSION WITH MAINSTREAM MEDIA), ACTING WITH OPEN TREASON AGAINST WE THE TRUE AND LOYAL CITIZENS OF THIS NATION, IMHO...
WAKE UP AND ACT NOW AT THE BALLOT BOX, OR ELSE VERY LIKELY A FUTURE CIVIL WAR WILL ACTUALLY OCCUR HERE, IMHO.
In fact, I believe the absolutely treasonous dem party and their allies the globalists, plan on having one at some future date when they are in power here.
A glaring example of why the treasonous libs and dems have destroyed the public education system, the more uneducated the populace, the easier it is that they can be deceived and manipulated! Even in the face of the overwhelming and easily researched evidence of what the dem party is truly doing, IMHO..
Some of us refuse to be-- blinded sheeple, cowardly dummies and/or gullible morons...... -Tyr

Gunny

07-20-2018, 09:02 PM

I've been against jobs leaving America for 30+ years. I would rather have union jobs here than have those Mfg jobs go to Mexico or China. That doesn't make me Jimmy Hoffa, Jr and I didn't change my mind suddenly because I fell for Donald Trump.
Iran doesn't equal Russia. We were not on a good path with Russia the last couple years of Obama's administration and it would have escalated had Hillary won. If Western European "allies" are going to side with Iran and other Arab nations over Israel....Not the point. The point is, labor unions have priced those jobs overseas. THEY are at least part of the problem. The US cannot compete fairly on the World market when nobody else is playing nor paying union overhead.

This steel tariff is a perfect example. The steel industry didn't fail because of "cheap, foreign" steel, nor did it fail because jobs left since the iron-ore is in the ground on US soil. US steel did not modernize to stay in competition, and union fat cats made a killing. They priced themselves out of business just us quite a few labor unions have done for its workers.

As a capitalist (read: conservative/Republican) why would I NOT go where I can produce more capital for my shareholders? Isn't THAT the job? Instead, Trump is forcing the world and especially US taxpayers/consumers to foot the bill because US steel can't compete. Why? Because US labor unions demand all these "rights" for workers that no other countries have.

I never had them. I was on the clock 24/7 in the Corps, and as an electrician, I got paid for work. Not because I existed. That while IBEW union electricians sat on the bench without work waiting for a call.

I don't want jobs to leave the US, and I really could care less if foreign trade is evened out. At the same time, it could have been done a lot less noticeably than a wham, bam, thank you ma'am, and where trade is actually unfair as opposed to forcing the World to pay to prop up an industry that can't compete fairly.

This IS about FAIR trade, right? US and World consumers making up the difference in an arbitrary crutch created by Trump is anything BUT fair.

Gunny

07-20-2018, 09:05 PM

You said above you haven’t liked him since the early 80s. When did you give him this benefit of the doubt? In the 70s?Do you read my posts? I have constantly given him the benefit of doubt. I have defended a lot of his junk too. THAT DOESN'T MAGICALLY VANISH THE SECOND I CRITICIZE HIM.

I'm not following ANYONE blind. My mother taught me better.

Gunny

07-20-2018, 09:06 PM

He did vote for him. Doesn't that count?No. Not when I point out his mistakes.

Gunny

07-20-2018, 09:07 PM

When trump was a cadet. :laugh:Or last week :rolleyes:

Gunny

07-20-2018, 09:09 PM

Brilliant truth given. Every point he made was truth and dead on the mark, be it about Trump and/or about the hero of left/dem obama.
When will the blinded, ignorant, do not give a damn , selfish self-serving , dem prone and gullible Americans wake up to the glaring fact that the Dem party work tirelessly against the security, welfare and prosperity of this nation? Thus making the dem party a true enemy of this nation!
That folks, is the undeniable truth--a glaring fact. That is the reality.
We need to stop thinking in a pre 1960'S sixties mode.

IT IS NO LONGER THE USUAL POLITICS AS USUAL GOING ON NOW.. IT IS A SUBVERTED ENTITY(THE DEM PARTY IN COLLUSION WITH MAINSTREAM MEDIA), ACTING WITH OPEN TREASON AGAINST WE THE TRUE AND LOYAL CITIZENS OF THIS NATION, IMHO...
WAKE UP AND ACT NOW AT THE BALLOT BOX, OR ELSE VERY LIKELY A FUTURE CIVIL WAR WILL ACTUALLY OCCUR HERE, IMHO.
In fact, I believe the absolutely treasonous dem party and their allies the globalists, plan on having one at some future date when they are in power here.
A glaring example of why the treasonous libs and dems have destroyed the public education system, the more uneducated the populace, the easier it is that they can be deceived and manipulated! Even in the face of the overwhelming and easily researched evidence of what the dem party is truly doing, IMHO..
Some of us refuse to be-- blinded sheeple, cowardly dummies and/or gullible morons...... -TyrGood points. Now you just have to figure out WHO the blind sheeple are.

Abbey Marie

07-20-2018, 09:21 PM

Do you read my posts? I have constantly given him the benefit of doubt. I have defended a lot of his junk too. THAT DOESN'T MAGICALLY VANISH THE SECOND I CRITICIZE HIM.

I'm not following ANYONE blind. My mother taught me better.

1. Yes, I read your posts, as you well know
2. I have seen a lot of criticism; and occasional weak support.
3. I’m not in the voting booth with you, so I don’t know for whom you’ve voted, nor does that matter anyway. I voted for Carter, but you’d be hard-pressed to find me saying anything good about his Presidency.

My perceptions are valid. Feel free to show him support whenever you’d like. Or not; I don’t care. But don’t tell me I’m not reading your posts, or that I don’t see what I see.

Gunny

07-20-2018, 09:38 PM

1. Yes, I read your posts, as you well know
2. I have seen a lot of criticism; and occasional weak support.
3. I’m not in the voting booth with you, so I don’t know for whom you’ve voted, nor does that matter anyway. I voted for Carter, but you’d be hard-pressed to find me saying anything good about his Presidency.

My perceptions are valid. Feel free to show him support whenever you’d like. Or not; I don’t care. But don’t tell me I’m not reading your posts, or that I don’t see what I see.
Bullshit. Period.

Black Diamond

07-20-2018, 11:22 PM

Not the point. The point is, labor unions have priced those jobs overseas. THEY are at least part of the problem. The US cannot compete fairly on the World market when nobody else is playing nor paying union overhead.

This steel tariff is a perfect example. The steel industry didn't fail because of "cheap, foreign" steel, nor did it fail because jobs left since the iron-ore is in the ground on US soil. US steel did not modernize to stay in competition, and union fat cats made a killing. They priced themselves out of business just us quite a few labor unions have done for its workers.

As a capitalist (read: conservative/Republican) why would I NOT go where I can produce more capital for my shareholders? Isn't THAT the job? Instead, Trump is forcing the world and especially US taxpayers/consumers to foot the bill because US steel can't compete. Why? Because US labor unions demand all these "rights" for workers that no other countries have.

I never had them. I was on the clock 24/7 in the Corps, and as an electrician, I got paid for work. Not because I existed. That while IBEW union electricians sat on the bench without work waiting for a call.

I don't want jobs to leave the US, and I really could care less if foreign trade is evened out. At the same time, it could have been done a lot less noticeably than a wham, bam, thank you ma'am, and where trade is actually unfair as opposed to forcing the World to pay to prop up an industry that can't compete fairly.

This IS about FAIR trade, right? US and World consumers making up the difference in an arbitrary crutch created by Trump is anything BUT fair.
Fair trade? How about the tariffs on our products going into other countries go away? Or is that different because the US the "richest country in the world"?
i understand why countries go overseas. Free trade deals gave them the chance to do that. I don't like unions either. But I dislike the way flint looks today even less.

Look at it this way. If he brings jobs back to Pennsylvania and Michigan, even if he does so inefficiently, it will prevent us from having 8 years of someone who, the way the left is going, will make Obama sound like Reagan.
I undersand the electoral map better than Pete thinks.

Black Diamond

07-20-2018, 11:23 PM

He did vote for him. Doesn't that count?
He's a NeverTrumper who voted for trump. We get it.

Black Diamond

07-20-2018, 11:29 PM

Abbey Marie

07-21-2018, 01:16 PM

I don't know. Maybe he rips every president this way. I've known him since the beginning of Obamas term. What's your experience been ?

Guess I hit a nerve, ey?
Apparently, I’m just full of s***. And if that’s how I get described after all these years, I really don’t give a damn. I sure as heck have better things to do.

Black Diamond

07-21-2018, 02:13 PM

Guess I hit a nerve, ey?
Apparently, I’m just full of s***. And if that’s how I get described after all these years, I really don’t give a damn. I sure as heck have better things to do.
You're not full of crap.

And I understand your sentiment. And then some.

Gunny

07-21-2018, 03:03 PM

Fair trade? How about the tariffs on our products going into other countries go away? Or is that different because the US the "richest country in the world"?
i understand why countries go overseas. Free trade deals gave them the chance to do that. I don't like unions either. But I dislike the way flint looks today even less.

Look at it this way. If he brings jobs back to Pennsylvania and Michigan, even if he does so inefficiently, it will prevent us from having 8 years of someone who, the way the left is going, will make Obama sound like Reagan.
I undersand the electoral map better than Pete thinks.
I don't know what Pete has to do with it, but simple math is simple math. We jack the tariff on steel and the rest of the World jacks its tariff's/boycotts our farm belt, WE are the losers. We artificially prop up one industry that can't fairly compete at the expense of an industry that can. And whatever you, Pete and the electorate have to do with it, almost ALL those farm belt states are red. For now.

ANd you're branching out. US steel isn't the sole nor even main cause of the auto industry going to shit. Inferior products at inflated prices, not to mention the aforementioned union overhead, killed the US-made auto market. It couldn't compete on the world market. US Steel was only part of the problem.

I don't feel any sympathy for companies that price themselves out of business. I'd say the major problem with ANY industry and trade is spoiled, American-arrogant fat cats who thought we were the be-all end-all post-WWII with ZERO thought given to the future and staying on the cutting edge of their industries. Now WE (the consumers) and the rest of the World are supposed to pay for it? There's NOTHING fair about that.

As an aside ... do you put your money where your mouth is? I've seen the questioned patriotism, and the "if you were a real American comments" (not naming names .. but where do YOU fall?

I'm anal as Hell and have boycotted foreign goods wherever possible/practical for years and years and YEARS. My truck's a GMC. My jeans are made at the Levi Strauss & Co factory right up the road on Acme Rd. My other jeans are Dickies, American made. My running shoes are New Balance and Brooks -- American made. My china isn't even from China. It was made in a pottery in Virginia we got when I was stationed there. My weight bar is made by Rogue Fitness USA in Ohio from US steel. It's better quality, but I paid the price of an entire weight set just for the Made in USA bar. I shop at the local grocery store rather than Wal Mart for both quality, and to support the local business. US owned.

I pick and choose my shit and every single thing IS weighed against where it is made. That's putting my money where my mouth is and doing my part. Even though all of that "Made in the USA" stuff has cost me more.

Ivoted for Trump. That's putting my money where my mouth is and when he's acting like an idiot or making stupid decisions you're damned right I'm going to have my say and I don't give a flying fuck who doesn't like it. It would bother me a lot less if I hadn't voted for him because then I wouldn't be partly responsible.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-21-2018, 03:08 PM

I don't know what to do with it, but simple math is simple math. We jack the tariff on steel and the rest of the World jacks its tariff's/boycotts our farm belt, WE are the losers. We artificially prop up one industry that can't fairly compete at the expense of an industry that can. And whatever you, Pete and the electorate have to do with it, almost ALL those farm belt states are red. For now.

ANd you're branching out. US steel isn't the sole nor even main cause of the auto industry going to shit. Inferior products at inflated prices, not to mention the aforementioned union overhead, killed the US-made auto market. It couldn't compete on the world market. US Steel was only part of the problem.

I don't feel any sympathy for companies that price themselves out of business. I'd say the major problem with ANY industry and trade is spoiled, American-arrogant fat cats who thought we were the be-all end-all post-WWII with ZERO thought given to the future and staying on the cutting edge of their industries. Now WE (the consumers) and the rest of the World are supposed to pay for it? There's NOTHING fair about that.

As an aside ... do you put your money where your mouth is? I've seen the questioned patriotism, and the "if you were a real American comments" (not naming names .. but where do YOU fall?

I'm anal as Hell and have boycotted foreign goods wherever possible/practical for years and years and YEARS. My truck's a GMC. My jeans are made at the Levi Strauss & Co factory right up the road on Acme Rd. My other jeans are Dickies, American made. My running shoes are New Balance and Brooks -- American made. My china isn't even from China. It was made in a pottery in Virginia we got when I was stationed there. My weight bar is made by Rogue Fitness USA in Ohio from US steel. It's better quality, but I paid the price of an entire weight set just for the Made in USA bar. I shop at the local grocery store rather than Wal Mart for both quality, and to support the local business. US owned.

I pick and choose my shit and every single thing IS weighed against where it is made. That's putting my money where my mouth is and doing my part. Even though all of that "Made in the USA" stuff has cost me more.

Ivoted for Trump. That's putting my money where my mouth is and when he's acting like an idiot or making stupid decisions you're damned right I'm going to have my say and I don't give a flying fuck who doesn't like it. It would bother me a lot less if I hadn't voted for him because then I wouldn't be partly responsible.
Gunny... the simple fact of the matter is though, president Trump has done far, FAR more GOOD than BAD.

Kathianne

07-21-2018, 03:21 PM

Gunny... the simple fact of the matter is though, president has done far, FAR more GOOD than BAD.

I won't disagree with that statement.

Shock!

Problem with much of what he has gotten wrong, thus far, is that the costs of those mistakes won't be seen in all likelihood for a few years at least.

Mind you, I'm fully aware that Obama's mistakes, which far outweigh any by Trump to this point, were harmful in both short and long term.

Then again, Obama isn't President anymore. (Thank you, Lord!)

Gunny

07-21-2018, 03:27 PM

Gunny... the simple fact of the matter is though, president has done far, FAR more GOOD than BAD.IMO, he's breaking even at best.

Let's be clear (again): I WANT Trump to succeed. We will be in a living Hell if he fails. Pretending he's not screwing up at times isn't going to change that fact. As far as the world is concerned, his trip to the UK and meeting with Putin are/were PR disasters. Unnecessary one. I'll used your words: JUST LIKE Judge Jeanine going on the View, WHAT did he expect? The World hates his ass. Putin doesn't because Trump is keeping all the negative attention off Putin and on himself. Putin should be the one the media is holding to the fire. He's the damned criminal.

And for what? "We'll have another conference to discuss our next meeting that will be another promise to have another meeting"? Meanwhile, Russia keeps flying air support for Assad's army, and supplying insurgents in Ukraine.

Glad everyone's got their priorities straight :rolleyes:

High_Plains_Drifter

07-21-2018, 03:33 PM

I won't disagree with that statement.

Shock!

Problem with much of what he has gotten wrong, thus far, is that the costs of those mistakes won't be seen in all likelihood for a few years at least.

Mind you, I'm fully aware that Obama's mistakes, which far outweigh any by Trump to this point, were harmful in both short and long term.

Then again, Obama isn't President anymore. (Thank you, Lord!)
No ones perfect, and I know you've given Trump plenty of credit here.

And I think the good things he's done are far greater in importance and scale than anything he might have gotten wrong, and it might take years to see the full impact, especially with trade and tariffs. How else is he supposed to level the playing the field and get these nations that have massive tariffs and trade imbalances with America other than doing to them what they've been doing to us first? Just ask them nicely to "knock it off" like obama? I'm afraid that wouldn't work. They have to feel the same kind of pain America has been feeling. We have to get their attention, and that's what he's done. I think that's exactly what I'd have done. Will it work? Well we'll see, but we won't know until we give it some time, so to criticize him as just stupid right off the bat is a little out of hand. But that's what EVERYONE does that hates him, with EVERYTHING.

Kathianne

07-21-2018, 03:37 PM

IMO, he's breaking even at best.

Let's be clear (again): I WANT Trump to succeed. We will be in a living Hell if he fails. Pretending he's not screwing up at times isn't going to change that fact. As far as the world is concerned, his trip to the UK and meeting with Putin are/were PR disasters. Unnecessary one. I'll used your words: JUST LIKE Judge Jeanine going on the View, WHAT did he expect? The World hates his ass. Putin doesn't because Trump is keeping all the negative attention off Putin and on himself. Putin should be the one the media is holding to the fire. He's the damned criminal.

And for what? "We'll have another conference to discuss our next meeting that will be another promise to have another meeting"? Meanwhile, Russia keeps flying air support for Assad's army, and supplying insurgents in Ukraine.

Glad everyone's got their priorities straight :rolleyes:

I agree with much here, although I think his policies thus far on the domestic front have helped a lot. Then again, it wasn't that hard to reverse so much of Obama's agenda, even the Democrats weren't happy with much of what he'd done.

HPD brought up the Omnibus Bill, that was not good, but so much fake news from the media and the tweets has even those that pay attention feeling like they have ADHD.

What he's doing on foreign affairs is crazy. Some, (NK if it holds) may end up ok. What he's doing about NATO, relations with allies, relations with Russia/Turkey, not good.

Now those are my opinions, I didn't vote for him. He won, I lost.

Kathianne

07-21-2018, 03:40 PM

No ones perfect, and I know you've given Trump plenty of credit here.

And I think the good things he's done are far greater in importance and scale than anything he might have gotten wrong, and it might take years to see the full impact, especially with trade and tariffs. How else is he supposed to level the playing the field and get these nations that have massive tariffs and trade imbalances with America other than doing to them what they've been doing to us first? Just ask them nicely to "knock it off" like obama? I'm afraid that wouldn't work. They have to feel the same kind of pain America has been feeling. We have to get their attention, and that's what he's done. I think that's exactly what I'd have done. Will it work? Well we'll see, but we won't know until we give it some time, so to criticize him as just stupid right off the bat is a little out of hand. But that's what EVERYONE does that hates him, with EVERYTHING.

Oh you're going to notice the tariffs sooner than later in your pocketbook. There may well be even more consequences down the road, with allies and with enemies. It won't just be China, but the problems sown there, will not be a great harvest.

Gunny

07-21-2018, 03:46 PM

No ones perfect, and I know you've given Trump plenty of credit here.

And I think the good things he's done are far greater in importance and scale than anything he might have gotten wrong, and it might take years to see the full impact, especially with trade and tariffs. How else is he supposed to level the playing the field and get these nations that have massive tariffs and trade imbalances with America other than doing to them what they've been doing to us first? Just ask them nicely to "knock it off" like obama? I'm afraid that wouldn't work. They have to feel the same kind of pain America has been feeling. We have to get their attention, and that's what he's done. I think that's exactly what I'd have done. Will it work? Well we'll see, but we won't know until we give it some time, so to criticize him as just stupid right off the bat is a little out of hand. But that's what EVERYONE does that hates him, with EVERYTHING.

Disagreeing with a decision or stating the decision is dumb is NOT stating the person him/herself is dumb. Two completely different animals.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

07-21-2018, 03:59 PM

Oh you're going to notice the tariffs sooner than later in your pocketbook. There may well be even more consequences down the road, with allies and with enemies. It won't just be China, but the problems sown there, will not be a great harvest.

The current set-up with China going back decades HAS --ALL-- BEEN IN THEIR FAVOR TO THE TUNE OF A FEW TRILLIONS DOLLARS, IMHO.
At some point a line has to be drawn and reversal actions taken against their actions such as currency manipulations, past lopsided trade agreements, their military actions- South China seas etc..
In my opinion the can getting kicked on down the road (as it has been for decades) was designed to eventually allow China to eclipse us.
The dem party screaming against Russia is because they are owned by China and faithfully bribed by China, certainly the past actions of the Clintons and the Obamas, prove that, IMHO.
As my grandfather oft said- "Better late than never", because- "Never can get you killed"....
If Russia is the hungry bear,then China is the poisonous serpent, why are we inviting the serpent into our nightbed to within striking distance?
Short answer is , the treasonous dem party, mainstream media, insane liberals, IMHO.
WE DO NO INVITE THE HUNGRY BEAR INTO OUR HOUSE TO EAT US- YET WITH GREAT APPLAUSE AND ACCOLADES, WE DO INVITE IN THE SERPENT!-TYR

Gunny

07-21-2018, 04:10 PM

Kathianne

07-21-2018, 04:10 PM

The current set-up with China going back decades HAS --ALL-- BEEN IN THEIR FAVOR TO THE TUNE OF A FEW TRILLIONS DOLLARS, IMHO.
At some point a line has to be drawn and reversal actions taken against their actions such as currency manipulations, past lopsided trade agreements, their military actions- South China seas etc..
In my opinion the can getting kicked on down the road (as it has been for decades) was designed to eventually allow China to eclipse us.
The dem party screaming against Russia is because they are owned by China and faithfully bribed by China, certainly the past actions of the Clintons and the Obamas, prove that, IMHO.
As my grandfather oft said- "Better late than never", because- "Never can get you killed"....
If Russia is the hungry bear,then China is the poisonous serpent, why are we inviting the serpent into our bed to within striking distance?
Short answer is , the treasonous dem party, mainstream media, insane liberals, IMHO. -TYR

True story:

There once was a kingdom that had power near and far. Some of its people went far, far away, but love their kingdom back home. For a long time, everyone was happy. The king was fine with what the people sent back to be made into goods and sold back to them. The people far away were happy, the king had people to help protect them as they built their villages and towns. They had their meetings and pretty much ran things themselves, the king didn't mind, they were far away.

Over time, the people that live in the new land, caused some problems. They joined with another kingdom, trying to get rid of the happy people from the far away kingdom. The king sent many boats and people to fight the other kingdom and the others who were helping them. It was very expensive, but the king and his people won!

Unfortunately, the king had other wars to fight, including closer to home. Money was tight and he and his government realized that the happy people far away should help with these costs. In fact, they realized that for a long time, they'd been getting a lot of help, but not paying their share of the costs.

So, they passed some taxes. It eventually led to the new land people breaking away from the kingdom. Why? Benign neglect for the most part.

When a country doesn't enforce their laws or allows unfair practices to abound-they need to address those in a manner that is understandable. Yes, it may still 'hurt' but the case must be made.

Instead of just saying, "F'ing A, today it changes!!!" You may well be leading to the revolutionary like backlash. Be it in trade or borders.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

07-21-2018, 04:27 PM

True story:

There once was a kingdom that had power near and far. Some of its people went far, far away, but love their kingdom back home. For a long time, everyone was happy. The king was fine with what the people sent back to be made into goods and sold back to them. The people far away were happy, the king had people to help protect them as they built their villages and towns. They had their meetings and pretty much ran things themselves, the king didn't mind, they were far away.

Over time, the people that live in the new land, caused some problems. They joined with another kingdom, trying to get rid of the happy people from the far away kingdom. The king sent many boats and people to fight the other kingdom and the others who were helping them. It was very expensive, but the king and his people won!

Unfortunately, the king had other wars to fight, including closer to home. Money was tight and he and his government realized that the happy people far away should help with these costs. In fact, they realized that for a long time, they'd been getting a lot of help, but not paying their share of the costs.

So, they passed some taxes. It eventually led to the new land people breaking away from the kingdom. Why? Benign neglect for the most part.

When a country doesn't enforce their laws or allows unfair practices to abound-they need to address those in a manner that is understandable. Yes, it may still 'hurt' but the case must be made.

Instead of just saying, "F'ing A, today it changes!!!" You may well be leading to the revolutionary like backlash. Be it in trade or borders.

My friend, I am well aware of the story of the American revolution, its history and what Britain did.
Your point is not lost on me just as I do not ignore points you make.
However, Trump did not say, - "F'ing A, today it changes!!!". He did draw a line in the sand and did the right thing to start reversing that which other president feared to engage, IMHO.
An added observation, thought and question my friend - If not now and with Trump- when would the reversal ever start?
Its already been over 40 years on and getting worse each decade..
China and Russia both represent threats to this nation but only one of them has bought out one of our two political parties..
The one that bought the dem party, is by far the greater future threat--simply because it is seen as an ally when it is in actuality a serpent, just waiting for the perfect time to strike. IMHO.-Tyr

Gunny

07-21-2018, 04:37 PM

My friend, I am well aware of the story of the American revolution, its history and what Britain did.
Your point is not lost on me just as I do not ignore points you make.
However, Trump did not say, - "F'ing A, today it changes!!!". He did draw a line in the sand and did the right thing to start reversing that which other president feared to engage, IMHO.
An added observation, thought and question my friend - If not now and with Trump- when would the reversal ever start?
Its already been over 40 years on and getting worse each decade..
China and Russia both represent threats to this nation but only one of them has bought out one of our two political parties..
The one that bought the dem party, is by far the greater future threat--simply because it is seen as an ally when it is in actuality a serpent, just waiting for the perfect time to strike. IMHO.-TyrHe said exactly that to the rest of the world with his steel tariff.

However they got the deals they got, the other countries are not going to just stand idly by and take a slam in the pocket on a declaration by one. They're going to fight back, as they are. We are fortunate only in that they are too weak an inept to actually band together and cripple us because they could. I do believe they will try if pushed far enough.

We domestically don't buy enough farm products to make up the difference in supporting our farming industry. Not to mention it makes no sense to cripple a viable industry to artificially support a non-viable one. I'm all for fair trade and would have less problem if an industry/area of trade that is currently viable but being treated unfairly be addressed.

Just as important, the impact to the farming industry has the potential to lose Trump, and even more importantly the GOP down the road, support. They're already telling the farmers here they're going to have to suck it up but it'll be okay in the long run. No one wants to hear "long run". That's as dirty a word to Americans as any.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

07-21-2018, 05:04 PM

He said exactly that to the rest of the world with his steel tariff.

However they got the deals they got, the other countries are not going to just stand idly by and take a slam in the pocket on a declaration by one. They're going to fight back, as they are. We are fortunate only in that they are too weak an inept to actually band together and cripple us because they could. I do believe they will try if pushed far enough.

We domestically don't buy enough farm products to make up the difference in supporting our farming industry. Not to mention it makes no sense to cripple a viable industry to artificially support a non-viable one. I'm all for fair trade and would have less problem if an industry/area of trade that is currently viable but being treated unfairly be addressed.

Just as important, the impact to the farming industry has the potential to lose Trump, and even more importantly the GOP down the road, support. They're already telling the farmers here they're going to have to suck it up but it'll be okay in the long run. No one wants to hear "long run". That's as dirty a word to Americans as any.

All valid considerations my friend. Certainly there was without doubt going to be push-back--which was/is no way to be avoided.
Could Trump have acted less aggressively and in a more moderate manner? Yes!
Would that have been far better to do? Maybe..
Point is trump took the first step, so would it have been better to slap on the hand or better to knock teeth out and be done with it?
Myself, I've always believed the knock the teeth out first but then again people have often called me a damn brute and stubborn ole mule..:laugh:
Nobody has ever called me-- diplomatic...:laugh:
You yourself are a fighter and know at times savage brute force cuts short what would have been a much longer and far more far damaging battle. SEEMS TO ME THAT TRUMP CHOSE THAT PATH AND WE GET TO SEE IF HIS CHOICE HE MADE WAS BEST, WAS THE BETTER OF THE OPTIONS.
TRUMP IS NOT PERFECT-NO MAN IS AND I DEARLY HATE HIS TWEETS MYSELF.

By the way- on another subject- I bought this book that was published 1997, titled - The Warrior Generals, Combat Leadership in the Civil War.-author- Thomas B. Buell .
I know you and I both share this deep interest in the Civil War and this book is one of the best I have ever read in giving deeper insight into mistakes made, PERSONALITIES OF THE TOP GENERALS- BOTH SIDES, ETC.
You would love it. Paperback copy , so price on the net is cheap. Check it out my friend.- TYR

High_Plains_Drifter

07-21-2018, 05:08 PM

Oh you're going to notice the tariffs sooner than later in your pocketbook. There may well be even more consequences down the road, with allies and with enemies. It won't just be China, but the problems sown there, will not be a great harvest.
Well, I just flat out disagree with that. America has already been getting screwed to the tunes of billions in tariffs on OUR goods, and a massive trade imbalance. America has ALREADY been suffering, and if I have to pay a little more for a spatula made in China, so be it. At least China is going to ALSO start feeling some pain they HAVEN'T had to feel, yet.

And I don't think there's a nation on earth more GREEDY than China with major aspirations, so as soon as they start feeling the money pinch there, you can't tell me that they're NOT going to want to PLAY BALL. They want their profits, they want their expansion, they want to keep making as much money as possible, and if we make that impossible with tariffs on their goods, because they have high tariffs on our goods, and they know that the only way to make MORE money is to level the playing the field or SUFFER, ya, I'm not buying the notion that they'll just continue attempting to screw America, especially since we've filed a grievance against them for unfair trade practices. I can't for the life of me figure out why you people think this trade and tariff is only a one way street where America gets screwed but no one else does.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-21-2018, 05:10 PM

All valid considerations my friend. Certainly there was without doubt going to be push-back--which was/is no way to be avoided.
Could Trump have acted less aggressively and in a more moderate manner? Yes!
Would that have been far better to do? Maybe..
Point is trump took the first step, so would it have been better to slap on the hand or better to knock teeth out and be done with it?
Myself, I've always believed the knock the teeth out first but then again people have often called me a damn brute and stubborn ole mule..:laugh:
Nobody has ever called me-- diplomatic...:laugh:
You yourself are a fighter and know at times savage brute force cuts short what would have been a much longer and far more far damaging battle. SEEMS TO ME THAT TRUMP CHOSE THAT PATH AND WE GET TO SEE IF HIS CHOICE HE MADE WAS BEST, WAS THE BETTER OF THE OPTIONS.
TRUMP IS NOT PERFECT-NO MAN IS AND I DEARLY HATE HIS TWEETS MYSELF.

By the way- on another subject- I bought this book that was published 1997, titled - The Warrior Generals, Combat Leadership in the Civil War.-author- Thomas B. Buell .
I know you and I both share this deep interest in the Civil War and this book is one of the best I have ever read in giving deeper insight into mistakes made, PERSONALITIES OF THE TOP GENERALS- BOTH SIDES, ETC.
You would love it. Paperback copy , so price on the net is cheap. Check it out my friend.- TYR
Exactly. Like when people sell something, the smart ones ALWAYS ask MORE for their item than they'll take. You start out high to give yourself room to negotiate. Trump has started out dealing with tariffs and trade imbalances like a gang buster so that it gives him room to negotiate. I see that as a position of strength. It's exactly the way I'd have handled it.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-21-2018, 05:13 PM

... the other countries are not going to just stand idly by and take a slam in the pocket on a declaration by one.
Every time you say that I have to wonder, is the fact that WE are ALREADY getting screwed by these countries something you just don't want to admit, or don't you CARE that we're already getting screwed?

If these other countries "fight back," that is only going to be ON TOP of the screwing they're ALREADY giving us. Is that of no concern to you?

Gunny

07-21-2018, 05:23 PM

Every time you say that I have to wonder, is the fact that WE are ALREADY getting screwed by these countries something you just don't want to admit, or don't you CARE that we're already getting screwed?

If these other countries "fight back," that is only going to be ON TOP of the screwing they're ALREADY giving us. Is that of no concern to you?Nope. What I am not doing is focusing solely on one aspect and ignoring the rest, to include the consequences of any actions taken. "Already getting screwed" is a matter of opinion since I don't recall at any point in time another country twisting the US's arm and forcing it into a deal. We signed on for the shit, and we elected the people that did the signing. The DOES change the issue and the approach to solving it. Indian giver's were frown upon as far back as I can remember. You make a deal, you honor it. You want to change it? You negotiate a change. You negotiated a deal to begin with, right?

What if I tell the mortgage company I don't like their deal and I'm changing it? How does THAT end? What if I'm 13 states that no longer want to be part of the US and have every right to leave as freely as I joined and do so? How did THAT end?

In any other facet of life, what Trump is doing would be illegal. It isn't different just because it's Trump and it's the US.

Also, YOU keep ignoring the fact that the only difference getting screwed is WHO is taking it up the bobo. Sleight of hand doesn't work on me. Saying you're "saving this" while "that" is paying for it is changing one damned thing in the real picture. It's just a realignment of funds.

Black Diamond

07-21-2018, 05:24 PM

I don't know what Pete has to do with it, but simple math is simple math. We jack the tariff on steel and the rest of the World jacks its tariff's/boycotts our farm belt, WE are the losers. We artificially prop up one industry that can't fairly compete at the expense of an industry that can. And whatever you, Pete and the electorate have to do with it, almost ALL those farm belt states are red. For now.

ANd you're branching out. US steel isn't the sole nor even main cause of the auto industry going to shit. Inferior products at inflated prices, not to mention the aforementioned union overhead, killed the US-made auto market. It couldn't compete on the world market. US Steel was only part of the problem.

I don't feel any sympathy for companies that price themselves out of business. I'd say the major problem with ANY industry and trade is spoiled, American-arrogant fat cats who thought we were the be-all end-all post-WWII with ZERO thought given to the future and staying on the cutting edge of their industries. Now WE (the consumers) and the rest of the World are supposed to pay for it? There's NOTHING fair about that.

As an aside ... do you put your money where your mouth is? I've seen the questioned patriotism, and the "if you were a real American comments" (not naming names .. but where do YOU fall?

I'm anal as Hell and have boycotted foreign goods wherever possible/practical for years and years and YEARS. My truck's a GMC. My jeans are made at the Levi Strauss & Co factory right up the road on Acme Rd. My other jeans are Dickies, American made. My running shoes are New Balance and Brooks -- American made. My china isn't even from China. It was made in a pottery in Virginia we got when I was stationed there. My weight bar is made by Rogue Fitness USA in Ohio from US steel. It's better quality, but I paid the price of an entire weight set just for the Made in USA bar. I shop at the local grocery store rather than Wal Mart for both quality, and to support the local business. US owned.

I pick and choose my shit and every single thing IS weighed against where it is made. That's putting my money where my mouth is and doing my part. Even though all of that "Made in the USA" stuff has cost me more.

Ivoted for Trump. That's putting my money where my mouth is and when he's acting like an idiot or making stupid decisions you're damned right I'm going to have my say and I don't give a flying fuck who doesn't like it. It would bother me a lot less if I hadn't voted for him because then I wouldn't be partly responsible.
I just gave a four paragraph response and it's gone. I'll be back later and redo it on a bigger screen.

High_Plains_Drifter

07-21-2018, 05:49 PM

Nope. What I am not doing is focusing solely on one aspect and ignoring the rest, to include the consequences of any actions taken. "Already getting screwed" is a matter of opinion since I don't recall at any point in time another country twisting the US's arm and forcing it into a deal. We signed on for the shit, and we elected the people that did the signing. The DOES change the issue and the approach to solving it. Indian giver's were frown upon as far back as I can remember. You make a deal, you honor it. You want to change it? You negotiate a change. You negotiated a deal to begin with, right?

What if I tell the mortgage company I don't like their deal and I'm changing it? How does THAT end? What if I'm 13 states that no longer want to be part of the US and have every right to leave as freely as I joined and do so? How did THAT end?

In any other facet of life, what Trump is doing would be illegal. It isn't different just because it's Trump and it's the US.

Also, YOU keep ignoring the fact that the only difference getting screwed is WHO is taking it up the bobo. Sleight of hand doesn't work on me. Saying you're "saving this" while "that" is paying for it is changing one damned thing in the real picture. It's just a realignment of funds.
Deals change every day.

People rewrite mortgages every day to get a better interest rate.

Nothing is written in stone.

Yes we've had politicians sell us down the river, and they've done a damn good job of it, and I believe they did so because they could line their own pockets with cash and the hell with the American people and our economy. But why you have such a problem with a president that's trying to fix that is beyond me. I honestly perplexed.

Kathianne

07-23-2018, 05:13 PM

Hmmm:

http://reason.com/blog/2018/07/23/trump-says-trade-war-is-only-risking-the?utm_medium=email

Trump Claims That Trade War Only Risks 'The Bank's Money' (http://reason.com/blog/2018/07/23/trump-says-trade-war-is-only-risking-the)

He's so, so wrong about that. But at least he's admitting a trade war won't be good or easy to win.

Eric Boehm (http://reason.com/people/eric-boehm/all)|Jul. 23, 2018 11:20 am

...

Which brings me to President Donald Trump. In an interview that CNBC aired over the weekend, Trump tried to wave away the potential negative economic consequences of his trade war by suggesting that "we're playing with the bank's money."

As CNBC goes on to explain, the stock market is up 31 percent since Election Day 2016. Trump seems to believe that those gains give him the flexibility necessary engage in a trade war.

To paraphrase George Bailey: Mr. President, you're thinking of this place all wrong.

The notion that any losses incurred by a trade war won't hurt because we're only risking recent economic gains is a dangerous misunderstanding of how economies operate. That logic might work in one of Trump's casinos: win a few hands of blackjack, and it's easy enough to set aside your original chips and "play with house money," as the saying goes. But the president is forcing ordinary Americans to risk economic gains they might prefer to put to other uses.

Trump might measure the success of his trade war by the impact on the stock market, but that ignores the far more practical effects felt by workers and businesses from coast to coast. It ignores the jobs that could be shipped overseas to avoid tariffs, and the loss of jobs at businesses that simply can't compete with artificially higher costs for raw materials such as steel and aluminum. The administration's plan to slap tariffs on imported cars and car parts alone could reduce U.S. economic output by $59 billion, the Commerce Department was told at an administrative hearing last week.

Trump continues to escalate the trade war. On Friday, he said he's willing to impose tariffs on $500 billion worth of Chinese imports—in other words, just about all of them—after already hitting $34 billion of Chinese goods with tariffs earlier this year.

If that happens, the economic consequences of the trade war will outweigh the economic boost created by last year's tax cuts, according to a new analysis from The Tax Foundation, a nonpartisan think tank. "If all tariffs announced thus far were fully enacted, U.S. GDP would fall by 0.47 percent ($117.6 billion) in the long run, effectively offsetting one-quarter of the long-run impact of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act," write Tax Foundation analysts Erica York and Kyle Pomerleau. "Wages would fall by 0.33 percent and employment would fall by 364,786."

Just the bank's money? Hardly.

This isn't just an economic blunder; it's probably a political blunder too. After two years of touting economic growth and a rising stock market as proof that his administration is doing the right thing, it's odd to suggest that those gains are only collateral against future mistakes. And it's hard to imagine that voters will shrug off the costs of a trade war by saying, "Well, it was just the bank's money."

...

aboutime

07-23-2018, 05:28 PM

Not that anyone will pay any attention to me...because I'm older, and don't know what I'm talking about. But, the president has told the entire WORLD. Not what many of us want to hear.
He has come out and finally had the BALLS to tell the rest of the world...The GREAT CHEATING of the WEAK U.S.A. is over.

Of course, we tend to be selfish, thinking a TRADE WAR, or TARIFFS on steel, and aluminum for other nations is a TERRIBLE THING. But, the truth is. The president would like those whining nations who have been cheating us for so long....to STOP all tariffs, and taxes...BOTH WAYS.

Many Americans...namely politicians want us the believe THE SKY IS FALLING because they hate the president, and everything he stands for. So, for some. TOUGH!
There is a method to the president's madness...which is actually the smartest thing any President has dared to do since I HAVE BEEN OLD ENOUGH TO READ.
Thankfully. The president doesn't listen to all of the complaints, and anti-Trumpers who would quickly put an end to any other man. TRUMP knows what he's doing. Politicians from around the World just hate it when HE PROVES THEY ARE WRONG, and CHEATING. Because THEY will lose money for their OVERFLOWING POCKETS, and he's gonna stop them. PERIOD.

Black Diamond

08-07-2018, 09:36 PM

I don't know what Pete has to do with it, but simple math is simple math. We jack the tariff on steel and the rest of the World jacks its tariff's/boycotts our farm belt, WE are the losers. We artificially prop up one industry that can't fairly compete at the expense of an industry that can. And whatever you, Pete and the electorate have to do with it, almost ALL those farm belt states are red. For now.

ANd you're branching out. US steel isn't the sole nor even main cause of the auto industry going to shit. Inferior products at inflated prices, not to mention the aforementioned union overhead, killed the US-made auto market. It couldn't compete on the world market. US Steel was only part of the problem.

I don't feel any sympathy for companies that price themselves out of business. I'd say the major problem with ANY industry and trade is spoiled, American-arrogant fat cats who thought we were the be-all end-all post-WWII with ZERO thought given to the future and staying on the cutting edge of their industries. Now WE (the consumers) and the rest of the World are supposed to pay for it? There's NOTHING fair about that.

As an aside ... do you put your money where your mouth is? I've seen the questioned patriotism, and the "if you were a real American comments" (not naming names .. but where do YOU fall?

I'm anal as Hell and have boycotted foreign goods wherever possible/practical for years and years and YEARS. My truck's a GMC. My jeans are made at the Levi Strauss & Co factory right up the road on Acme Rd. My other jeans are Dickies, American made. My running shoes are New Balance and Brooks -- American made. My china isn't even from China. It was made in a pottery in Virginia we got when I was stationed there. My weight bar is made by Rogue Fitness USA in Ohio from US steel. It's better quality, but I paid the price of an entire weight set just for the Made in USA bar. I shop at the local grocery store rather than Wal Mart for both quality, and to support the local business. US owned.

I pick and choose my shit and every single thing IS weighed against where it is made. That's putting my money where my mouth is and doing my part. Even though all of that "Made in the USA" stuff has cost me more.

Ivoted for Trump. That's putting my money where my mouth is and when he's acting like an idiot or making stupid decisions you're damned right I'm going to have my say and I don't give a flying fuck who doesn't like it. It would bother me a lot less if I hadn't voted for him because then I wouldn't be partly responsible.
Damn this post is longer than I remember. Pete taunted me pre election about how I didn't understand electoral math or the electoral map. I know it pretty well. Well enough to understand trump needs Michigan, penn, or Wisconsin again next time or he's one and done. That might explain his trade policies you don't like. It might. Although he has been talking like this since the 1980s. The difference being in the 1980s it was Japan.

We are blue oval all the way. We have two ford pickups and a mustang convertible. At least you buy American :cool: I didn't know you could still get clothes made in USA. I thought they were all made in Indonesian sweat shops. Now I'll be a bigger horses ass and it's all your fault. :laugh: