Incivility As A Security Threat

[Kathianne]

I've seen this coming, it's dangerous, IMO:

http://thefederalist.com/2018/06/11/americas-incivility-national-security-threat/


Over the past few years, much has been said and written about the growing incivility in our country. From the news media to social media to the man in the White House, coarse name-calling has overtaken measured, civil discourse. There are myriad reasons this is a dangerous trend, but we need to understand and bear heavily in mind one in particular. Our growing incivility is a grave threat to our national security.

To understand why, look at the D.I.M.E. paradigm, a way of military thinkers have devised of looking at instruments of national power. The acronym stands for Diplomacy, Informational, Military, and Economic. Beneath these four levers of power exist all of the ways and means that every country may employ to exert power and influence.


In three of these areas, the United States has unquestioned dominance over all other nations on earth. But in the informational area, that dominance is nowhere near as certain. Informational levers of power include public relations, communications, and, most importantly, propaganda. The United States’ offensive informational capabilities are second to none, but our defensive capabilities are hampered by one of our most cherished institutions: the First Amendment.


While an ultimate good, freedom of speech is also a dangerous hole in our ability to defend against the growing threat of propaganda operations. Our primary foreign adversaries — Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea — are all repressive regimes vastly more capable of defending against propaganda. If speech is being used to sow division and discord in those nations, they just squash it. They shut down websites, close newspapers, and even kill journalists. These are defensive options that thankfully our government cannot use.


The Propaganda Threat Is Growing

...

[SassyLady]

If the only source of news is State owned then propaganda can be controlled (like China). US citizens have many sources from which to collect information. Unfortunately, the majority depend on only one or two sources and are readily influenced to go with the "group think" route.

[Kathianne]

If the only source of news is State owned then propaganda can be controlled (like China). US citizens have many sources from which to collect information. Unfortunately, the majority depend on only one or two sources and are readily influenced to go with the "group think" route.
That's been true, not so sure how much any longer. Media outlets are choosing 'sides' every bit as much as the electorate. Propaganda seems to be the rule of the day, not necessarily by government, but by choice.

[SassyLady]

That's been true, not so sure how much any longer. Media outlets are choosing 'sides' every bit as much as the electorate. Propaganda seems to be the rule of the day, not necessarily by government, but by choice.

Agreed!

[SassyLady]

And, our children are being indoctrinated so it's hard to get to the truth anymore.

[Kathianne]

And, our children are being indoctrinated so it's hard to get to the truth anymore.

Therein lies a large measure of the problem. Each side is so convinced of the evil intents of the other side, that allowing for any hearing on issues is becoming nearly impossible.

[SassyLady]

therein lies a large measure of the problem. Each side is so convinced of the evil intents of the other side, that allowing for any hearing on issues is becoming nearly impossible.

amen!

[Elessar]

Incivility only? How about the numerous civil disturbances the
last Administration turned it's collective back to? Obama, Holder - the whole crowd.

Riots, the "Occupy" movement, violent protests? Obama's passive aggressive threats
to disarm the populace?

[Gunny]

Therein lies a large measure of the problem. Each side is so convinced of the evil intents of the other side, that allowing for any hearing on issues is becoming nearly impossible.An obvious choice as example as it relates to "us" is message boards.

The first political message board I was on around 01 was an international/Euro one. Most of the members were Anglo speakers from UK, Cana-duh, Australia, New Zealand and a few of us were Americans. Naturally, it had a leftist tone. I could however engage in ACTUAL debate with individuals and the topic was the discussion. Not whether or not someone thinks my mother wears combat boots. People actually linked info to back their stances, and gave thoughtful replies. Most debates ended in either finding common ground or agreeing to disagree and move on.

Now? Pffft :talk2hand: If you don't like a certain person or event you best check your surroundings before opening your mouth. The responses WON'T be intelligent. One liners filled with insults. Kinda makes looking up the links and giving a thoughtful reply all worthwhile :rolleyes: Everything is based on mindless hate, and equally mindless rhetoric. And I think half the people get their "facts" from Twitter.

I have never seen this much hatred in politics in my lifetime. Not even for Clinton, Carter or Reagan. It started going downhill for real, IMO, with GWB. And I admit to despising the air that Obama breathes. He's anti-American and anti-Constitutional and his actions in office are the evidence.

The media fuels it. And Sassy's right ... the info is out there but the drones don't look for it. Lot easier to just hurl an insult and think you're funny.

[Kathianne]

An obvious choice as example as it relates to "us" is message boards.

The first political message board I was on around 01 was an international/Euro one. Most of the members were Anglo speakers from UK, Cana-duh, Australia, New Zealand and a few of us were Americans. Naturally, it had a leftist tone. I could however engage in ACTUAL debate with individuals and the topic was the discussion. Not whether or not someone thinks my mother wears combat boots. People actually linked info to back their stances, and gave thoughtful replies. Most debates ended in either finding common ground or agreeing to disagree and move on.

Now? Pffft :talk2hand: If you don't like a certain person or event you best check your surroundings before opening your mouth. The responses WON'T be intelligent. One liners filled with insults. Kinda makes looking up the links and giving a thoughtful reply all worthwhile :rolleyes: Everything is based on mindless hate, and equally mindless rhetoric. And I think half the people get their "facts" from Twitter.

I have never seen this much hatred in politics in my lifetime. Not even for Clinton, Carter or Reagan. It started going downhill for real, IMO, with GWB. And I admit to despising the air that Obama breathes. He's anti-American and anti-Constitutional and his actions in office are the evidence.

The media fuels it. And Sassy's right ... the info is out there but the drones don't look for it. Lot easier to just hurl and insult and think you're funny.

I must agree. I do not bother anymore backing up, linking up with most folks. It takes time, which I used to think was a decent use of my time. Today, actually for the past decade nearly, there is a true lacking of people willing to look beyond a scoreboard, the minds are closed. Yes, it's only worsened and no, I do not have the answers to the problem.

I still look up and read what I'm deeply interested in and have my opinions on things. Luckily for me, I have folks that I can discuss things with. We don't always agree, rarely in honesty, do we even come close. What we have in common though is the desire to see more than one vision of problems and solutions. It's not the stuff though that makes for interesting message board fodder.

[SassyLady]

I must agree. I do not bother anymore backing up, linking up with most folks. It takes time, which I used to think was a decent use of my time. Today, actually for the past decade nearly, there is a true lacking of people willing to look beyond a scoreboard, the minds are closed. Yes, it's only worsened and no, I do not have the answers to the problem.

I still look up and read what I'm deeply interested in and have my opinions on things. Luckily for me, I have folks that I can discuss things with. We don't always agree, rarely in honesty, do we even come close. What we have in common though is the desire to see more than one vision of problems and solutions. It's not the stuff though that makes for interesting message board fodder.

I will engage with someone I disagree with as long as the conversation is "civil". If not, then I'm no longer interesting in hearing or speaking.

[Kathianne]

I will engage with someone I disagree with as long as the conversation is "civil". If not, then I'm no longer interesting in hearing or speaking.
Me too. I just won't go looking for anything to back up my position, unless the person is civil and actually wants information. Those that make 'demands' to 'prove it?' Will no longer comply. They feel they've scored some points, I know I've saved myself time.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I remember a time when conservatives on boards used to say, "don't stoop to their level, then you're no better than they are."

I'm afraid those days are over. When we see severed bloody heads of our president, when we see our president being stabbed to death nightly in a play, when we see constant protests by fascists wearing pink hats saying they want to blow up the White House, when we see conservatives shot at baseball practices, when we hear celebrities saying fuck Trump on a prime time broadcast for an awards show, and the examples are virtually endless, and we all know what side of the political spectrum they're all coming from, it kinda wears down the other side to the point where they're just absolutely sick of it and start dishing it out back.

[Gunny]

I remember a time when conservatives on boards used to say, "don't stoop to their level, then you're no better than they are."

I'm afraid those days are over. When we see severed bloody heads of our president, when we see our president being stabbed to death nightly in a play, when we see constant protests by fascists wearing pink hats saying they want to blow up the White House, when we see conservatives shot at baseball practices, when we hear celebrities saying fuck Trump on a prime time broadcast for an awards show, and the examples are virtually endless, and we all know what side of the political spectrum they're all coming from, it kinda wears down the other side to the point where they're just absolutely sick of it and start dishing it out back.

"Dishing it back out" accomplishes ZERO. It might make you feel better, but you actually just gave an idiot the reaction he/she desired. I've posted this repeatedly because it was a question I often asked myself way back in the day when I was an active duty Marine before I even knew what a PC or message board was ...

If you are going to behave in the same manner as that which you despise/hate the most ... WHAT makes YOU better than that which you despise/hate the most? Nothing. There is no righteousness in your cause as it is the same as theirs, just from a different POV.

And Lord knows I'm no angel. I've let my share of blood. That does not however mean I should not strive to be one.

[SassyLady]

I remember a time when conservatives on boards used to say, "don't stoop to their level, then you're no better than they are."

I'm afraid those days are over. When we see severed bloody heads of our president, when we see our president being stabbed to death nightly in a play, when we see constant protests by fascists wearing pink hats saying they want to blow up the White House, when we see conservatives shot at baseball practices, when we hear celebrities saying fuck Trump on a prime time broadcast for an awards show, and the examples are virtually endless, and we all know what side of the political spectrum they're all coming from, it kinda wears down the other side to the point where they're just absolutely sick of it and start dishing it out back.

True that conservatives believe in not stooping to their level. We can however make or voices heard without being vile. We used to just ignore bad behavior which we cannot do anymore. Call them out by asking questions about what and where they get their belief. Many times they can't identify because they are in the liberal echo chamber.

Oh, and if a conservative is being vile I won't engage either.

[SassyLady]

Creeping normality or death by a thousand cuts is the way a major change can be accepted as the normal situation if it happens slowly, in unnoticed increments, when it would be regarded as objectionable if it took place in a single step or short period.











https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creeping_normality

[High_Plains_Drifter]

"Dishing it back out" accomplishes ZERO. It might make you feel better, but you actually just gave an idiot the reaction he/she desired. I've posted this repeatedly because it was a question I often asked myself way back in the day when I was an active duty Marine before I even knew what a PC or message board was ...

If you are going to behave in the same manner as that which you despise/hate the most ... WHAT makes YOU better than that which you despise/hate the most? Nothing. There is no righteousness in your cause as it is the same as theirs, just from a different POV.

And Lord knows I'm no angel. I've let my share of blood. That does not however mean I should not strive to be one.
I know it accomplishes zero. I merely pointed out what's happening.

[Gunny]

I know it accomplishes zero. I merely pointed out what's happening.I'm aware of what is happening. It's why I don't post on a lot of boards and don't bother with faceplantbook or twitter. I'd as soon not log in as get into a pissing contest with some rude prig. It doesn't matter how right I am nor how much evidence I bring. If they even pretend to argue they just ignore anything proving them wrong and proceed.

I've seen on many occasion where you hand someone his ass in one thread and they just quit that thread, and go start a new thread -- same topic, different title -- and proceed as if they weren't shot out of the sky already.

I got better things to do.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I'm aware of what is happening. It's why I don't post on a lot of boards and don't bother with faceplantbook or twitter. I'd as soon not log in as get into a pissing contest with some rude prig. It doesn't matter how right I am nor how much evidence I bring. If they even pretend to argue they just ignore anything proving them wrong and proceed.

I've seen on many occasion where you hand someone his ass in one thread and they just quit that thread, and go start a new thread -- same topic, different title -- and proceed as if they weren't shot out of the sky already.

I got better things to do.

https://image.ibb.co/dxVuVH/youtwitface.jpg

[Gunny]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creeping_normalityI'm probably going to swerve the thread here, but THAT is exactly how I would expect this tariff crap to be handled. They don't mind doing it at the gas pump. A penny here, a penny there. A little grumbling, but not much more.

Gas is up 50 cents in the past couple of months. Couple of pennies at a time. Had they just slammed us with 50 cents at once I bet there'd have been some real crying and media sensationalism.

The left has done it for years. They're doing it with DACA, just using a different route. Dragging it out in the court system while we get used to the idea of them being here. When a deal finally IS reached, we'll be stuck with all those DACA babies and not even flinch.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I'm probably going to swerve the thread here, but THAT is exactly how I would expect this tariff crap to be handled. They don't mind doing it at the gas pump. A penny here, a penny there. A little grumbling, but not much more.

Gas is up 50 cents in the past couple of months. Couple of pennies at a time. Had they just slammed us with 50 cents at once I bet there'd have been some real crying and media sensationalism.

The left has done it for years. They're doing it with DACA, just using a different route. Dragging it out in the court system while we get used to the idea of them being here. When a deal finally IS reached, we'll be stuck with all those DACA babies and not even flinch.
Yeah... and I gotta put premo in both the Camaro and the Harley.

At least the Harley gets about 80 miles to the gallon... :laugh:

Wasn't DACA illegal?

[SassyLady]

I'm probably going to swerve the thread here, but THAT is exactly how I would expect this tariff crap to be handled. They don't mind doing it at the gas pump. A penny here, a penny there. A little grumbling, but not much more.

Gas is up 50 cents in the past couple of months. Couple of pennies at a time. Had they just slammed us with 50 cents at once I bet there'd have been some real crying and media sensationalism.

The left has done it for years. They're doing it with DACA, just using a different route. Dragging it out in the court system while we get used to the idea of them being here. When a deal finally IS reached, we'll be stuck with all those DACA babies and not even flinch.

It has happened with porn, sexual preferences, gender, identity, church attire, child discipline, cursing, body piercing, tattoos, etc. What used to be normal is abnormal and abnormal is normal. Moderates are now extremists due to changing norms.

[pete311]

lol incivility? Start with half of this board.

[Gunny]

It has happened with porn, sexual preferences, gender, identity, church attire, child discipline, cursing, body piercing, tattoos, etc. What used to be normal is abnormal and abnormal is normal. Moderates are now extremists due to changing norms.No matter what you give the left, they always want more. The "left" when I was a kid was more conservative than most conservatives are today. We REALLY starting going off the cliff when we started letting the inmates run the asylum.

The psycho in me sees the sick humor in this, while the realist sees the sadness: Back in the 70s when I was a teenybopper with long hair, bell bottoms, tie dyed clothes -- I was considered an anti-establishment leftwingnut hippy. When I voted for Reagan the first time and was a Marine, I was an independent thinker (because I didn't like Dems but was not "conservative". Mid-80s - mid-90s, I was a moderate conservative. Then I was a rightwingnut conservative because I voted for Bush. NOW, I'm a nobody because I don't fawn at Trump's feet.

At no point have my core beliefs and values changed much. Just what others choose to label themselves and me has. I kinda like the "nobody" gimmick. That means "nobody" owns ME. I think BOTH political parties suck and NEITHER do what they are supposed to: govern the Nation FOR the people.

[Elessar]

lol incivility? Start with half of this board.

You are only going to receive in kind the way you come across and dish out.

[Gunny]

lol incivility? Start with half of this board.I'm not going to speak for anybody else. I don't recall being uncivil to you. I may :poke: at you at times, but frankly, you aren't worth being uncivil to.

You're the deflection king and you have EARNED that title from ME. You come on here, make open-ended, ambiguous/vague statements, then tap-dance all around them never taking a stance AND using NOT taking a stance as some sort of argument. "Where did I say that? I never claimed ...". Not a hard game to play, nor figure out.

The same people react to your posting "style" the same way every time; yet, you continue to use arguments based in intellectual dishonesty expecting a different result?

If every time I stick my crank in the door and somebody slams it shut each and every time, I'm going to figure out 2 things: One, my crank hurts. Two, if I stick my crank in the door again, somebody's going to slam it shut on my crank.

You want to be treated differently? Act differently. I personally have no problem telling you to go pound sand. Politely :). Others do. Deal.