Trump Tries to Destroy the West

[jimnyc]

Confidently. Factually. The title will have you believe that it's Trump's true intent. And yet, again, it's just made up BS coming from the pages of the NY Times. They just outright make shit up, and then later in the article point out that it's just someone's thoughts, and not his intent or even his own thoughts. And a lot of people, some we may even know from this very board, like to read titles and run with it.

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Trump Tries to Destroy the West

The alliance between the United States and Western Europe has accomplished great things. It won two world wars in the first half of the 20th century. Then it expanded to include its former enemies and went on to win the Cold War, help spread democracy and build the highest living standards the world has ever known.

President Trump is trying to destroy that alliance.

Is that how he thinks about it? Who knows. It’s impossible to get inside his head and divine his strategic goals, if he even has long-term goals. But put it this way: If a president of the United States were to sketch out a secret, detailed plan to break up the Atlantic alliance, that plan would bear a striking resemblance to Trump’s behavior.

It would involve outward hostility to the leaders of Canada, Britain, France, Germany and Japan. Specifically, it would involve picking fights over artificial issues — not to win big concessions for the United States, but to create conflict for the sake of it.

A secret plan to break up the West would also have the United States looking for new allies to replace the discarded ones. The most obvious would be Russia, the biggest rival within Europe to Germany, France and Britain. And just as Russia does, a United States intent on wrecking the Atlantic alliance would meddle in the domestic politics of other countries to install new governments that also rejected the old alliance.

Rest - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/10/opinion/g7-trump-quebec-trudeau.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2 Fopinion

[Gunny]

I sort of agree as far as the result of his actions goes. The rift IS there and widening. I completely disagree however he is trying to purposefully destroy ANY alliance with the US and the West. That's just BS.

[jimnyc]

I sort of agree as far as the result of his actions goes. The rift IS there and widening. I completely disagree however he is trying to purposefully destroy ANY alliance with the US and the West. That's just BS.

He's not purposely doing anything. I believe there is a rift as well, but IMO it's mainly because they don't like the change in tariffs and other deals made in the past. Trump is or has making a lot of changes in that department, and it's pissed off various countries. I say tough shit to them. A fair deal is a fair deal, and that's what he seeks when negotiating with them. And I also think a portion of the rift is because of how he speaks about and to various folks when not in their presence. A loudmouth who needs to stop with that shit.

But I think as to the article... I believe Trump is doing what he truly believes is best in America's interest, and I have no problem with his intent, and his changes in deals/tariffs and some other things we were generally getting screwed over on. But there's a time to be politically correct, even Trump, and that's when speaking with or about foreign leaders.

[Gunny]

He's not purposely doing anything. I believe there is a rift as well, but IMO it's mainly because they don't like the change in tariffs and other deals made in the past. Trump is or has making a lot of changes in that department, and it's pissed off various countries. I say tough shit to them. A fair deal is a fair deal, and that's what he seeks when negotiating with them. And I also think a portion of the rift is because of how he speaks about and to various folks when not in their presence. A loudmouth who needs to stop with that shit.

But I think as to the article... I believe Trump is doing what he truly believes is best in America's interest, and I have no problem with his intent, and his changes in deals/tariffs and some other things we were generally getting screwed over on. But there's a time to be politically correct, even Trump, and that's when speaking with or about foreign leaders.I just said he wasn't doing it anything on purpose in my opinion. He's just being Trump.

We will just have to disagree on the "why" as to the "rift". His idea of diplomacy leaves MUCH to be desired. If I was any or all of the ones he's given the "my way of the highway" to I'd ALREADY be working a backdoor deal or deals that cut him out. Even if I had to play along short-term, the end-game would be to establish my own trade that was not subject to his rule.

And it CAN be done. Only thing stopping it right now is a lack of balls.

[jimnyc]

I just said he wasn't doing it anything on purpose in my opinion. He's just being Trump.

We will just have to disagree on the "why" as to the "rift". His idea of diplomacy leaves MUCH to be desired. If I was any or all of the ones he's given the "my way of the highway" to I'd ALREADY be working a backdoor deal or deals that cut him out. Even if I had to play along short-term, the end-game would be to establish my own trade that was not subject to his rule.

And it CAN be done. Only thing stopping it right now is a lack of balls.

Oh, I was just stating it factually, I saw that you said the same. :)

Like I said, I know his diplomacy leaves a lot to be desired. But for me, it's the agenda and results that matter. And things like nafta and the iran agreement. Pissed a lot off, but IMO was more than the way to go. If he could learn not to be an asshole he could probably get even more done, but I don't think he has it in him. I always ask myself, as I did with all presidents, whether or not the agenda and goal is good for America. Then of course, watching and awaiting results. I think he's mostly spot on for his goals, I think they're all good for America - but he can still be diplomatic as he firmly stands his ground.

[SassyLady]

He's breaking up concept of globalism. I'm ok with that because "the West" is rife with corruption. Break it down, rebuild with America represented appropriately as most generous nation but not an apologist nation.

[Black Diamond]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11498&stc=1

[gabosaurus]

The showdown at G7 was a lot more tense than you thought.

https://i.imgflip.com/2c1hnd.jpg

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Trump busting up bad deals gets a big thank you from me! Even if the deal is with one of our so-called allies.
Iran deal and NAFTA deal both ffkd us big time!
About time that we have a President that is not afraid to piss some of these so-called friends off, or even our enemies in bad deals made with them by that previous ffing traitor obama
Trump being tough in deal making and negotiations is why some of us supported him-as we were damn tired of the USA, kissing ass and giving too damn much away.
Who needs friends that have the sole purpose of shafting the living hell out of you in every deal they make??
Not me, nor should it be this nation's policy either, IMHO..--Tyr

[Gunny]

The one where Trump said what wanted and left? There's a whole thread on it. Agree with his behavior or not, Trump dismissed them. He could pull the US out for all I care about globalism. It ties us to too many losers.

[SassyLady]

G7 or G8?

Do we want Russia as ally or enemy?

[Drummond]

SassyLady has a point about globalism. The truth is starker, though, and actually simpler, I think, from the EU side.

Simply, the EU is moving to become a single political and economic entity, to reach 'Superpower' status. Those behind the scenes, wielding the real power, just crave and want to grab ever MORE power for themselves.

The EU began as the EEC ... merely a trading entity. It's mutated beyond all recognition as the power-mongers moved in. The US is a rival economic and political powerhouse, making it a rival. That's as far as the infantile EU goes in viewing the US. They're totally obsessed with that very simple, if 'galling' (to them), fact. They act accordingly.

You can't reason with such a mentality, and I think Trump knows it. So, he's acting in accordance with the reality he sees.

... and, who can blame him .....

[Drummond]

G7 or G8?

Do we want Russia as ally or enemy?

I'm not sure if anybody actually 'wants' Russia as an enemy. However .. if they're not an enemy, they need to stop proving that they ARE.

The onus is on Russia to evolve a mentality that sees them becoming minimally civilised on the world stage ... and I suggest covering for a rogue regime's WMD attack on civilians, to say nothing of chemical assassinations attempted internationally (remember Salisbury, Wiltshire, UK .. against the Skripals ?) ... are acts, positions, which do NOT qualify them for such a status.

The more the West 'looks the other way' when these things happen ... the more it'll 'have to'. Russian terrorist activity ultimately becomes legitimised, something we could find we can't reverse.

I say: NO. Russia acts like an enemy. It needs to prove it's not one. The sooner the better.

[SassyLady]

Yes ... mindset change for Russia, or defeat. Germany and Japan are now allies.

[Gunny]

G7 or G8?

Do we want Russia as ally or enemy?The other countries want to continue to exclude Russia. From what I read ( posted it somewhere on here), Russia was rather lukewarm to the gesture anyway.

Not to stray, but I see Putin frothing at the bit at Turkey's sudden open hostility to the West and the US dumping the Iran deal as opportunity. He also has to see the trade tariffs as opportunity as European nations look for alternatives to US trade.

He likes to straddle the fence anyway. I think he only showed his hand in Syria because of the strategic importance of that warm water port on the Med.

[Gunny]

Trudeau needs to shut his big mouth. Yapping like the inconsequential little ankle-biter that he is. He's just stupid. He's INVITING a trade war with the guy ready to start one?

Brilliant :rolleyes:

[SassyLady]

Ankle-biter .... I like that description!