more than half the US experts are anti surge

[truthmatters]

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[truthmatters]

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[theHawk]

Yea lets find a big group of liberals and call them 'experts' and ask them about the war. Please....

[Nukeman]

http://tinyurl.com/2z8ypx

Our military is at the breaking point.

Is Bush trying to destroy America?

Do you get any news from any place other than your favorite web sight you list above.

Every single quote you use comes from this slanted web sight....

Try looking for your news in other places.... You might actually learn something...:poke:

[truthmatters]

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[5stringJeff]

reuters?

Reuters is about as slanted as the KKK.

[truthmatters]

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[GW in Ohio]

The surge is a joke, just like everything else Bush has tried in Iraq. I wonder how morale is among our troops over there. (And please....don't try to blame poor troop morale on the liberals. When you have a jerkoff for a CinC and a rabid ideologue for a VP, it spells disaster for the troops.)

In less than a year and a half, we'll have a new Democratic president who will start the unenviable task of cleaning up the mess Bush and Cheney & Co. have created in Iraq.

In the meantime, here's something to consider....

Bill Clinton, the womanizing, draft dodging liberal, was infinitely better as a CinC than George Bush. :laugh2::salute::lol::salute::laugh2:

[Nukeman]

reuters?


Your sooo funny. Yes the article may come froom Reuters, however yo didnt get from their web sight you continue to always list your slanted little web sight tnyurl.com.


I believe that is the only place you read anything. They put it together for you to look at so once again you dont have to think....

[truthmatters]

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[Nukeman]

Tiny url makes the url smaller and in doing this it makes the link more stable.

I can recut and paste the link when I need to and it will continue to work without problem.

.
My mistake on the tinyurl.com

Sorry for the misunderstanding!!

[truthmatters]

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[darin]

I believe THIS guy:


"Our guys are seeing progress on the security front," General George Casey told reporters here after a weekend visit to Iraq. "The surge is having the intended military effect." - GEN Casey

[Hagbard Celine]

I believe THIS guy:

Generals are going to say whatever their CinC tells them to say dmp. You won't see field generals openly defying the President.

[truthmatters]

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[Hagbard Celine]

Goody gumdrops! Iraq is the place where the sunshine comes from and President Bush is the one we can all thank for it! Wheeeeeee!
http://z.about.com/d/crime/1/0/h/D/manson1a.jpg

[darin]

You would believe Charles Manson if he said what you wanted to hear. This was for dmp

That perhaps the stupidest, most-ignorant, immature, foolish comparison or example I've ever read. In fact, EVERYONE who reads your post above is now stupider. I award you NO points, and my God have MERCY upon your soul.

[truthmatters]

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[darin]

http://tinyurl.com/2z8ypx


Then why is it you just write these experts off and believe someone whos service requires he fall in line?


That's not even an honest question. This thread is sucking IQ points down the drain.

[truthmatters]

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[truthmatters]

Its bad form to give red squares when you cant answer a question

[darin]

See you refuse to believe anyone who says what you dont want to hear.


No - you're ignorant. It's pointless. You have NO IDEA how Military service works. You have NO IDEA how to fight a war. You're a cherry-picker who drinks from the kool-aide trough of the Liberal Mainstream media - and you let that tripe Consume you to the point of hysteria.

Rule 1: NEVER debate with somebody you have to educate first.

I'd have to spend HOURS trying to get you up to even a cursory-knowledge of how the Military, specifically the Army, runs to even START a debate with you.

[truthmatters]

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[glockmail]

So you are just going to ignore that the majority of our countries experts of all parties think our current policy is very flawed?

See what I mean you wont even adress the facts given you? I think the point is that the survey is of career beaurocrats. But you'll never see that as you think reuters is balanced.

[darin]

So you are just going to ignore that the majority of our countries experts of all parties think our current policy is very flawed?

See what I mean you wont even adress the facts given you?

No - I'm going to believe the opinion of people who have a stake in the outcome.

Didn't your mom ever teach you "just because your FRIENDS jump off a bridge.."

The people who LIVE in Iraq, who actually SERVE, and those who command them are FAR more of a reliable source.

[truthmatters]

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[glockmail]

The people who live in Iraq have repetedly said they want us to leave.
The People or some people? That ranks up there with "some say...".

[glockmail]

....

Ninety-one percent of those polled said the world has grown more dangerous for Americans and the United States, up 10 percent from February.

......

Of course the war has made things more dangerous for us. That's how it is when you stand up for yourself instead of cowering.

[darin]

This is exactly why I said what I said and you just keep making my point.


I'm not making your point, I'm refusing to debate this with you because you are stupid and I don't have a chance in hell of teaching you anything.

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[glockmail]

....I thought this was to keep us safer?

This is what Bush has said all along.

Why dont the Republicans run on a platform of "lets piss everyone off"? It will make us safer in the long run. Its no different than any other example where one decides to make a stand for what is right.

Why don't the Democrats run on a platform of "we'll bend over and take what they're giving"?

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[glockmail]

It is NOT making us safer.

Please tell me how it is going to make us safer? By removing a supporter of terrorism, for one.

[avatar4321]

Generals are going to say whatever their CinC tells them to say dmp. You won't see field generals openly defying the President.

So we should believe some self declared experts but ignore the guys who have all the information on the ground.

Makes so much sense...

[avatar4321]

It is NOT making us safer.

Please tell me how it is going to make us safer?

Spreading freedom and killing terrorists is making us less safer? What do we have to fear from freedom and dead terrorists?

[truthmatters]

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[GW in Ohio]

Of course the war has made things more dangerous for us. That's how it is when you stand up for yourself instead of cowering.

No, no, no........

We didn't "stand up" for anything in invading Iraq, except our own, narrow, misperceived national interest.

We're hated around the world because, under Bush, we've been behaving like fucking Nazis.

[truthmatters]

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[avatar4321]

The Iraqis dont feel we are spreading freedom and want us to leave.

The problem with dead terrorists is when you have to kill babies and destroy entire countries infrastructures you end up creating 100 New terrorists for every one 1 you kill.

This is what they experts agree on.

The Iraqis dont want us gone. If they did they would have told us. They would have stepped up their own security.

We are the ones rebuilding the infrastructure. We are the ones saving those babies from these terrorists.

The "experts" have about as much authority to speak on the matter as a chimpanzee.

[truthmatters]

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[avatar4321]

No, no, no........

We didn't "stand up" for anything in invading Iraq, except our own, narrow, misperceived national interest.

We're hated around the world because, under Bush, we've been behaving like fucking Nazis.

Yeah are narrow national interests. like survival, freedom. How dare we stand up for them. We are so evil for wanting to freaking stay alive and wanting others to stay alive as well. How dare we.

You have no clue how nazis would act. If America was anything like the Nazi's youd have beend dead years ago. And I am sick and tired of you ignorant people trivializing what the nazis did by comparing it to something totally unrelated. What kind of person thinks that liberating two nations and helping the people establish a method of self government is even comparable to conquoring and slaughtering tens of millions of people.

Of course, your attitude is mostly just projection. Because the more you learn about the nazis the more you realize they shared the same policies you do and not the ones the President does. They were environmental wackos too. But of course we cant admit that. Hitler an environmentalist! what a horrible thought!

I dont know why you guys hate the fact that we are liberating people and allowing them to be free. But then something tells me its probably because you dont really care for freedom.

[darin]

I just cant figure out why the cons stop answering my threads after a few posts?

Because your ignorance is tiresome. Your dishonest questions and the strawmen you create are boring.

[avatar4321]

Majority of Iraqi Lawmakers Now Reject Occupation

By Raed Jarrar and Joshua Holland, AlterNet. Posted May 9, 2007.


Why do you ignore facts given you , why do you think the ONLY ones who can estimate the situations are people IN the admin?

You see they will say any thing Bush orders them to say.



On Tuesday, without note in the U.S. media, more than half of the members of Iraq's parliament rejected the continuing occupation of their country. 144 lawmakers signed onto a legislative petition calling on the United States to set a timetable for withdrawal, according to Nassar Al-Rubaie, a spokesman for the Al Sadr movement, the nationalist Shia group that sponsored the petition.

It's a hugely significant development. Lawmakers demanding an end to the occupation now have the upper hand in the Iraqi legislature for the first time; previous attempts at a similar resolution fell just short of the 138 votes needed to pass (there are 275 members of the Iraqi parliament, but many have fled the country's civil conflict, and at times it's been difficult to arrive at a quorum).

http://tinyurl.com/26zaow

and you guys complain that we do nothing but propaganda... You know maybe you should actually start caring about your name and the truth rather than this bull crap.

[Gaffer]

The people who live in Iraq have repetedly said they want us to leave.

The survey of 108 experts, including Republicans and Democrats, showed opposition to the so-called "surge" across the political spectrum, with about two-thirds of conservatives saying it has been ineffective or made things worse in Iraq.


http://tinyurl.com/2z8ypx


These are the foremost experts on the region and foreign policy.

You quote one person who is still beholden to do this presidents bidding.

This is exactly why I said what I said and you just keep making my point.

Foreign Policy said seven of 10 experts supported the redeployment of U.S. forces from Iraq. Experts have increasingly cited the war as the root cause of what they believe to be U.S. failure to win in its war on terrorism.

Ninety-one percent of those polled said the world has grown more dangerous for Americans and the United States, up 10 percent from February.

http://tinyurl.com/2z8ypx


Now these are people including republicans who have served in republican admins.

"Experts" in what? Politic? How to be a good liberal? Bush hating? Pencil pushing? Armchair quarterbacking?

It's kinda like scientists say, or nine out of ten doctors recommend. Name all the experts and their qualifications that make them experts in the field of military surges in iraq.

Yours is a silly argument by lefties because the surge is succeeding in spite of your efforts to make it fail. And in spite of your endless efforts to make the military look bad.

[truthmatters]

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[glockmail]

The survey of 108 experts, including Republicans and Democrats, showed opposition to the so-called "surge" across the political spectrum, with about two-thirds of conservatives saying it has been ineffective or made things worse in Iraq.

Foreign Policy, published by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, said the experts polled on May 23 to June 26 included former government officials in senior positions including secretary of state, White House national security adviser and top military commanders.



Why do ignore the facts?

Why do you think they are all "former"?

[truthmatters]

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[glockmail]

No, no, no........

We didn't "stand up" for anything in invading Iraq, except our own, narrow, misperceived national interest.

We're hated around the world because, under Bush, we've been behaving like fucking Nazis.

Perhaps you can cite some pertinent examples to back this bullshit up.

You're really staring to piss me off again GW. You're such a damn bed-wetting pansy. I predict you'll run away from this challenge, just like you've ran away from my other direct challenges, and want the US to run away from ours.

When the going gets tough, GW from Ohio hides in a spider hole.:pee:

[Gaffer]

Experts in What?

[glockmail]

"Experts" in what? Politic? How to be a good liberal? Bush hating? Pencil pushing? Armchair quarterbacking?

It's kinda like scientists say, or nine out of ten doctors recommend. Name all the experts and their qualifications that make them experts in the field of military surges in iraq.

Yours is a silly argument by lefties because the surge is succeeding in spite of your efforts to make it fail. And in spite of your endless efforts to make the military look bad.
Maybe if you put in bold large type TM will answer you. :laugh2:

[truthmatters]

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[glockmail]

This suggests that you haven't read anything that others have.

[glockmail]

How about holding Americans citizens without charges and trial?

How about torturing people ? Show me where laws have been broken. Making some guy think he's drowning ain't torture, sister.

[truthmatters]

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[glockmail]

Still waiting.

[truthmatters]

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[glockmail]

Protocol requires you to be specific when linking to a lengthy article. Or Am I supposed to guess at what your point is?

[truthmatters]

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[Gaffer]

former government officials in senior positions including secretary of state, White House national security adviser and top military commanders.

the reason I do this is because you people dont seem to read anything posted

It still doesn't tell me what they are experts in. Just that they are use-ta-wases. Former anything in washington means they were once political appointee's of the former president.

left wing nutjobs and pundits are not experts in anything. People with an agenda against Bush are not experts in anything.

Expert, scientist, doctor are all words thrown out to give credence to the article and nothing more. The "experts" are nothing more than political hacks.

[truthmatters]

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[glockmail]

There is that better? Again, I asked you to point out where laws have been broken.

[avatar4321]

How about holding Americans citizens without charges and trial?

How about torturing people ?

Who has been held without a trial? Who has been tortured?

No one.

[truthmatters]

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[avatar4321]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse

You and i clearly have different definitions of torture. Ive seen frat hazing worse than this.

[Gaffer]

See you will accept no facts.

These are the top experts in foriegn policy in this country people who have had Top Secret access and you act as if these positions mean nothing.

You dont want facts you what OLiely to tell you what to believe.

There would only be a few "experts" involved in foreign policy. Not over a hundred. And just because they are involved in foreign policy doesn't make them and expert or even knowledgeable about the war situation. They are certainly not military experts. They are part of the somalia cut and runners. Their "expertise" is in how to run away and avoid conflict.

[glockmail]

which laws?

Bush laws or the constitution? Nice try at deflection. To give you every opportunity to make yourself look foolish, I'll let you define which law has been broken, and then you can tell us who broke it.:smoke:

[truthmatters]

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[avatar4321]

Well any answers?

good question. are you going to answer?

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[glockmail]

good question. are you going to answer?
Don't hold your breath.

[glockmail]

Padilla was held for years without trial.

Abu Garib and guantanamo people were tortured and Padilla's lawyers say he was too.
Is that the best you have?

What laws were broken?
Where are the scars to show torture occurred?

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[glockmail]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Padilla_%28prisoner%29

Padilla was a legal American citizen and was held for YEARS without trial.


What laws were broken (4th time, same question)?

[truthmatters]

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[5stringJeff]

What laws were broken (4th time, same question)?

The whole thing in the Bill of Rights about the right to a speedy trial, maybe?

[actsnoblemartin]

let general patreus decide, not politicians.

[emmett]

Padilla was held for years without trial.

Abu Garib and guantanamo people were tortured and Padilla's lawyers say he was too.

The fact that his lawyers say it, makes it so too y'all. I can't believe Mr. Padilla has been treated n such a manner as he has. It's pitiful.

Maybe we should have given him a medal. I mean shit, Nancy Pelosi heads and backs the most dangerous group in America, way....way... more dangerous than Padilla, hamas or even Bin Laden. She has never served a day in jail, bondage or anything. Actually she is flown around on Air Force One, pandered, supported by almost half the idiots in our country and eats very well. Well, a little better than Padilla did.

Democrats insult the integrity of the Armed Forces of the United States of America, they want to place them and us in harms way (not intentionally you understand, just because they DON"T understand) and they want motivated, hard working decent succesful business people and upper middle classers to bare the burden of paying for 88% of the cost of everything. Of course that number will grow to 95% when they shove their Health Care plan down our throat in 2009 or so since they will probably have 60% of both houses.

Wake up folks, vote Libertarian and stop this foolishness. The only thing Democrats listen to is poll numbers. If polls start showing 13 to 15 %, just 13 to 15 % supporting the Lbertarian Party, they will listen. They wil start to change teir spewed vomit. It will change color. Yes, we will lose the election but we are going to lose it anyway. I mean shit, A democrat against a Democrat is a losing proposition. Rudi IS a democrat. A wolf in sheeps clothing folks. Don't fall for it. Make a real statement with your vote. If your gona waste it, waste it on the LP.

[avatar4321]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Padilla_%28prisoner%29

Padilla was a legal American citizen and was held for YEARS without trial.

he was detained as an enemy combatant and then put on trial and found guilty. nice try.

[avatar4321]

Is that the best you have?

What laws were broken?
Where are the scars to show torture occurred?

there are no scars because there is no person who has been tortured. if there was names could be given.

[avatar4321]

let general patreus decide, not politicians.

apparent the generals arent an accurate source. They dont know anything. these self appointed experts are the ones we should be listening to.

[glockmail]

If you would read the links you would know
Post 65. :pee:

[glockmail]

The whole thing in the Bill of Rights about the right to a speedy trial, maybe? That applies to criminal proceedings, not acts of war.

[5stringJeff]

That applies to criminal proceedings, not acts of war.

Wrong. It applies to all American citizens. Padilla is an American, thus he is entitled to trial.

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[avatar4321]

Padilla is a legal American citizen.

Would you let Hilary choose who is called a enemy combatant?

Would you just let any Democrat who gets elected deside which American citizens she held for years without trail?

if they can show that they were in combat against the United States. Yeah. why should anyone on the battle field against the United States not be an enemy combatant just because he was born here?

[avatar4321]

I would protest just as loud if a dem did it !

i highly doubt that.

[5stringJeff]

if they can show that they were in combat against the United States. Yeah. why should anyone on the battle field against the United States not be an enemy combatant just because he was born here?

If he's an American citizen, in combat against the US, he should be tried for treason, by a jury of his peers, as put forth in the Constitution.

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[glockmail]

Wrong. It applies to all American citizens. Padilla is an American, thus he is entitled to trial. War gives the President broad powers. Besides the bastard was guilty. That proves the Prez made the right decision.

[glockmail]

I would protest just as loud if a dem did it !
Just like you constant whining about Clinton's 11th hour pardons.

[truthmatters]

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[glockmail]

Maybe you should read the constitution? I read it all the time. In fact I carry it arong with me in my briefcase. Right next to my 0.40 caliber pistol.

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[glockmail]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

did you forget this part?
Did you forget this: Military Commissions Act.

[5stringJeff]

War gives the President broad powers.

Not the power to override the Constitution.


Besides the bastard was guilty. That proves the Prez made the right decision.

The ends do not justify the means.

[5stringJeff]

Holding Padilla an American citizen for 4 year without trial was contrary to the constitution.

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

[glockmail]

[1]Not the power to override the Constitution.



[2]The ends do not justify the means.

1. Sure it does. Tell that to Lincoln, FDR, or any other war-time president.
2. Cute saying. But the ends proves that the means was necessary and warranted.

[5stringJeff]

1. Sure it does. Tell that to Lincoln, FDR, or any other war-time president.

Lincoln was wrong. FDR overrode the Constitution regularly, so he was wrong too. It's not a peacetime-only constitution.


2. Cute saying. But the ends proves that the means was necessary and warranted.

No, the end result that Padilla was found guilty showed that following the Sixth Amendment works.

[glockmail]

Lincoln was wrong. FDR overrode the Constitution regularly, so he was wrong too. It's not a peacetime-only constitution.



No, the end result that Padilla was found guilty showed that following the Sixth Amendment works.The 6th wouldn't have worked if the feds didn't have enough time to gather evidence. Gathering evidence during war is not the same as during peace time. Hence the War Powers Act and broad Presidential powers, that are wrong according to the ACLU, but otherwise right.

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[glockmail]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Commissions_Act_of_2006

A law which is contrary to the constitution is a BAD law and should never have been followed as if it were legal.

This is part of why people hate this admin. 90% of the laws written are BAD and contrary to the Constitution. So why does this piss you off and not, say, Hillary's socilaized medicine proposal? You wouldn't be letting politics color your opinion, would you?

[5stringJeff]

The 6th wouldn't have worked if the feds didn't have enough time to gather evidence. Gathering evidence during war is not the same as during peace time. Hence the War Powers Act and broad Presidential powers, that are wrong according to the ACLU, but otherwise right.

If the prosecutors needed five years to gather evidence, they ought to be the ones going to jail. Regardless, an American citizen being arrested and jailed for years without being charged with anything is a violation of due process (5th Amendment).

[truthmatters]

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[gabosaurus]

Why have so many people gone along with this "surge" bullshit. It's a troop buildup. We are occupying a foreign country without just cause.

[Dilloduck]

Why have so many people gone along with this "surge" bullshit. It's a troop buildup. We are occupying a foreign country without just cause.

It's a troops buildup and a different strategy. You've begged for a change for years--you got one. Sorry it's effective.

[truthmatters]

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[Dilloduck]

please link us up to proof of its success?

Links are worthless to you--you know that.

[truthmatters]

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[Dilloduck]

WTF does that mean I give you people links all the time.

Why do you refuse to back up your claims with facts?

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matthew-sheffield/2007/08/22/surge-success-causes-democrats-recalibrate-iraq-strategy

[Gaffer]

WTF does that mean I give you people links all the time.

Why do you refuse to back up your claims with facts?

I don't have time or the inclination to post a bunch of links that you will ignore. even democrats in congress are admitting the surge is working. The war will be won in spite of you.

[truthmatters]

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[glockmail]

It was not socialized medicine she proposed.

.
Shit by another name still stinks.

[truthmatters]

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[Dilloduck]

Again please link us to proof of your claims?

If you do not I will assume you cant.

Dont come here to debate and then squirm away without proving your claims by saying your too buzy it is transparent to everyone what that menas.

The link is there---you have assumed wrongly again.

[Sitarro]

You dont even know what it is.

How can you hate what you dont even know anything about?

You did not even know the differance between socialized med and the Hil program.

How can you be satisfied with the ridiculous amount of misused and misspelled words in every one of your posts? It really takes away from what little credibility you might have. :cool:

[Dilloduck]

How can you be satisfied with the ridiculous amount of misused and misspelled words in every one of your posts? It really takes away from what little credibility you might have. :cool:

"Truth" gets all her info from media other than "our own" ( i.e. the WP :laugh2:). Maybe she gets her spelling lessons from another source too.

[glockmail]

You dont even know what it is.

How can you hate what you dont even know anything about?

You did not even know the differance between socialized med and the Hil program.

Shit by any other name still stinks.

[Pale Rider]

Whether or not the troop surge/build up is working, there is another problem, and that's that we can NOT continue working/stretching our military to this degree. Equipment is wearing out, money is getting tight, troops are ready to drop, and they're pissed they've been ordered to stay there despite the fact that most aren't even supposed to be there anymore.

If we're going to continue in Iraq as an open ended commitment/occupiers, it's going to cost us triple what it has been, and we'll HAVE to implement a draft.

Truthfully, I want us out of Iraq, now. Because I don't think we have any damn business occupying a foreign country in turmoil for as long as we have. Since when did America get into the business of occupying and nation building? Why the hell are we doing that? We should get our troops and equipment home. If that leaves a power vacuum in the area, so what. If Iran moves in and takes over, so what. If there's mass genocide, so what. I'd love to hear those fucking rag heads were all killing each other anyway, then WE wouldn't have to do it, and WE wouldn't have OUR soldiers over there getting THEIR asses shot off and blown up. And if it followed us over here, AGAIN, in the meantime we could be building our military back up and giving our troops a break. We'd be all rested up and reequipped ready to go where ever and BLOW THE LIVING SHIT OUT OF THEM, AND THEN LEAVE, AGAIN. Repeat as necessary. But this open ended/nation building/occupier shit, I can't agree with it, for any reason. Either we fight a full blown war, or get the hell out of there. This playing patty cake with insurgents and terrorists is bull shit.