Are Ghosts Real?

[Pale Rider]

Are Ghosts Real?


Both skeptics and ardent believers in the paranormal admit that supernatural and unexplainable activity—sightings of ghosts, spirits, and/or aliens—is on the rise. If there is no supernatural, what are these apparitions?

Millions of eager viewers are gobbling up popular movies such as Ghost , Casper the Friendly Ghost, Beetlejuice, Ghost Rider, and Ghost Busters. Video fantasy and arcade games featuring ghosts, skeletons, and mummies and beings alive after death are the rage. TV shows such as “The Night Stalker,” “Supernatural,” “The Ghost Whisperer” are skyrocketing. Why do we have such a fascination with death and ghosts, while so many argue that ghosts are merely superstition?

The most logical place to go to get the facts about supernatural things is the Bible, the one authority about things that cannot be seen or explained by natural earthly laws. And indeed, the Bible does indicate that paranormal activity and interest in the spirit world would increase at the very end of time. Even more alarmingly, the Bible warns that these spirits will lure multitudes into worldwide deception .

"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles , which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." Revelation 16:13-14

With this in mind, how vital it is that we understand what the Bible says about ghosts, spirits, and the afterlife!

Not all Sleight of Hand


People are often fearful of “haunted” buildings, believing that the spirits of the dead are active there. A quick perusal of the Internet will expose many web sites dedicated to ghost photos, videos, and stories. Of course, many of these are ridiculous hoaxes. However, some are more credible and cannot be easily explained away. The question is, what are they?

The Bible teaches that the dead do not come back to haunt houses because they are resting in grave awaiting either of the two resurrections.

Jesus said: " Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth ; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation ." John 5:28-29

"As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. He shall return no more to his house , neither shall his place know him any more ." Job 7:9-10

"While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. " Psalm 146:2-3

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing , neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun ." Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

Who is responsible for the strange phenomena that provoke fear in so many hearts? It is Satan, the Devil, who wants the world to believe that the dead are not really dead.

"Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die : For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. " Genesis 3:1-5

Skeptics are in Grave Danger
Many people rationalize that supernatural spiritual manifestations are all merely fraudulent hoaxes. But these people are in great danger of being deceived when they are exposed to a supernatural happening that cannot be explained. While it is true that trickery has often been palmed off as genuine manifestations, there has also been marked exhibitions of supernatural power.

The mysterious rappings with which modern spiritualism began, late in the 19th century, was not the result of human trickery or cunning, but was the direct work of evil angels, who thus introduced one of the most successful of soul-destroying delusions.

Many will be ensnared through the belief that spiritualism is a merely human imposture; when brought face to face with manifestations which they cannot but regard as supernatural, they will be deceived, and will be led to accept them as the great power of God.


http://www.truthaboutdeath.com/are-ghosts-real.asp

[badger]

Are ghosts real? No. I have never seen one shred of verifiable evidence that ghosts are real. Where is the definitive ghost video? Ghosts are like UFOs, the Yeti, the Lochness Monster, the Bermuda Triangle, and the Arc of the Covenant: there is zero definitive evidence that any of it exists. If I'm incorrect, post a link to the evidence that definitively verifies any of that stuff.

[Swarm]

Actually, There is a shitload of evidence in the flying community, including a videotape made by New Zealand news anchor. There is also tapes by austraunauts, radar readings in conjunction with pilot sightings, and taped pilot-control tower coversations. As for ghosts I believe there is too much evidence to support their existance. But hey, for each his own :)

[nevadamedic]

Hell yea I believe in ghosts and UFO's. If anyone doesn't they should visit Virginia City and the Fire Fighters Cemetary, I can't even go there at night. VC was always on unsolved mysteries with various hauntings. Also spend a night on the Queen Mary in southern California, I guarantee you wont sleep at all.

As far as UFO's I live five hours from Area-51 and the TTR and against Government denials both bases exist and are fully functioning. Weather or not they have anything to do with UFO's is unknown but it is part of the Hype. The community around it is all themed on Alien's. The Highway leading to it was renamed by Governor Bob Miller The Extraterrestrial Superhighway. People have seen strange things there for years. I lived in Pahrump about 35-40 miles from the base and I did see some strange things in the sky. Weather they were UFO's or Experimental Aircraft I can't tell you. I can tell you that Area-51 is and has been a Top Secret Aircraft Development Base. I have made a thread about it somewhere here about the companies that hire Security for it and Pilots as the workers are flown in daily from McCarren Airport and Reno Tahoe and the Stead Air Port on Janet Planes(They are the Air Force's code name for these flights) They are Airforce planes flow by civilian contractors. I can post the ad they run in the Las Vegas papers looking for pilots and I am happy to post pictures of the Planes at Mccarren and from a hiltop on a peak by Area 51.

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,

1. There is an under ground spirit world.
2. Full of demons.
3. They have a plan to deceive mankind, like Pale Rider said.
4. I think perhaps space men will visit this planet but are really evil spirits.
5. Who will try to trick everyone into believing they are ambassadors of Gawd.
6. On some sort of recruiting mission.
7. That requires a certain sacrifice.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[PostmodernProphet]

Are ghosts real? No. I have never seen one shred of verifiable evidence that ghosts are real.

do you believe that nothing is 'true' until it has been evidenced as true?

[nevadamedic]

Sorry bout that,

1. There is an under ground spirit world.
2. Full of demons.
3. They have a plan to deceive mankind, like Pale Rider said.
4. I think perhaps space men will visit this planet but are really evil spirits.
5. Who will try to trick everyone into believing they are ambassadors of Gawd.
6. On some sort of recruiting mission.
7. That requires a certain sacrifice.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

Ummmm we already have those things here, they are called Democrats.

[PostmodernProphet]

I think perhaps space men will visit this planet but are really evil spirits.

isn't it rather egotistical to assume that God would have created a universe so large that we still can't see the other side of it just so we could say "Oh, aren't those stars pretty!"......

I think we can presume that God created other planets with sentient life.....

[Black Lance]

isn't it rather egotistical to assume that God would have created a universe so large that we still can't see the other side of it just so we could say "Oh, aren't those stars pretty!"......

I think we can presume that God created other planets with sentient life.....

True, but it is also rather egotistical to assume that God would send his only to son to die for us.

[emmett]

Nope!

[PostmodernProphet]

True, but it is also rather egotistical to assume that God would send his only to son to die for us.

???...egotistical?....hey, it was His idea, not mine.....

[typomaniac]

At the end of the day, I suppose it all depends on what you mean by "ghosts." There's no doubt that the concept of a dead person's spirit coming back to visit the living has always been and will always be an important element of the human psyche. So in that sense, ghosts are very real in our minds, probably because of our obsession with our own deaths.

Apart from that, there will (probably) always be phenomena that science simply won't be able to explain, and some of it might seem to us to be ghosts. And maybe that's exactly what it is, but we won't be able to confirm or deny it.

[Pale Rider]

Are ghosts real? No. I have never seen one shred of verifiable evidence that ghosts are real. Where is the definitive ghost video? Ghosts are like UFOs, the Yeti, the Lochness Monster, the Bermuda Triangle, and the Arc of the Covenant: there is zero definitive evidence that any of it exists. If I'm incorrect, post a link to the evidence that definitively verifies any of that stuff.

I don't think you can declare there is no such things as ghosts any more than people can declare there are. I've seen some compelling evidence that there is. I watch "Most Haunted" just about every Friday night on the travel channel. One time they were on Alcatraz Island inside the old prison where many, MANY people say they've seen, heard, and been touched by things that aren't there, but they had an infrared camera set up next to a night vision camera. The night vision camera didn't pick up anything, at the same time, pointed at the same place, when the infrared camera picked up an image in the outline of a person walking out of one wall, crossed the corridor, and through the other wall. I'd call that pretty hard to explain.

I've also been witness to a couple different things. Once, when I was very young, my brother and I heard a VERY loud hissing in our bedroom. We had been talking about the devil. We both started screaming, but I could hear the hissing OVER our screams. Funny thing was, as soon as my father opened the door and burst into the room, it quit. It's also very funny that HE didn't HEAR it. Why not? I could hear it OVER my screaming with my blankets pulled over my head. HE SHOULD HAVE HEARD IT TOO.... but didn't.

Another time, years later, in Virginia City, Montana, my friends and I were having a few beers, and we got this great idea to check out this big old empty house that had belonged to the town banker back in the late 1800's. He died unexpectedly, and his black wife reportedly a few years later committed suicide, both died in the house. We went around the house looking for a way in. The windows were all locked as well as the doors. So my friend boosted me up onto the roof. I found a window I could open and let myself in. I found my way downstairs finally, because the house is quite large, and let the others in. We went through the whole house, the basements, the attic, and were standing in the living room when we heard foot steps coming towards us from back towards the kitchen. We all got instantly scared shitless and almost busted out the front door getting out. We ran a ways away and watched the house. Nothing. No lights, nothing moving, nothing. I don't think I've ever been quite so scared in my life. It's the unknown. The unexplained. The supernatural. The paranormal. There was no way anyone could have gotten into the house without us knowing. The doors were all locked, the floor creaked, we'd have heard it. And after we exploded from the house running, we watched it for awhile. No one came out. No cars around it, no lights inside, nothing. We told a few people about what happened at the risk of getting in trouble for going in there, but found out the same thing had happened to other people in there also. So, we more or less confirmed the rumor... the house IS haunted.

Yes... I believe in ghosts. I'm not sure what they are, but I believe they're there.

[diuretic]

I spent several nights on the Queen Mary in Long Beach. I did the tour they run where the actors come out and play their roles as the narrator tells you some of the weird things that happened on the ship. It was really good, very well done. Even in the middle of the day the tour was very atmospheric. I remember being shown the cabin with the bloodstains in the carpet. That one was admittedly weird. From memory a young woman was murdered in the cabin and she bled on the carpet. Apparently they have tried to remove the blood stains (they are very faded) but they keep coming back.

Of course that could be a load of old tosh, I don't know. Still, it was a great tour around the ship.

Okay, I did have a problem getting to sleep that night.....but then I have a fiercely active imagination.

[Pale Rider]

I spent several nights on the Queen Mary in Long Beach. I did the tour they run where the actors come out and play their roles as the narrator tells you some of the weird things that happened on the ship. It was really good, very well done. Even in the middle of the day the tour was very atmospheric. I remember being shown the cabin with the bloodstains in the carpet. That one was admittedly weird. From memory a young woman was murdered in the cabin and she bled on the carpet. Apparently they have tried to remove the blood stains (they are very faded) but they keep coming back.

Of course that could be a load of old tosh, I don't know. Still, it was a great tour around the ship.

Okay, I did have a problem getting to sleep that night.....but then I have a fiercely active imagination.

That sounds like it was a lot of fun. I'd love to do that myself.

No strange sounds or anything in the night?

Alcatraz isn't very far from where I am. San Franfreakshow is just over the hills, maybe four hours from Reno. There's an evening tour of it that last about an hour and a half through the place, and it's pretty cheap. I REALLY want to take that tour.

[PostmodernProphet]

I watch "Most Haunted" just about every Friday night on the travel channel.

have you ever watched T.A.P.S. on the sci-fi channel? Those guys certainly leave one with the impression they honestly depict what they experience, and they have documented things which are very hard to explain away.....

such as this....

http://www.the-atlantic-paranormal-society.com/video/ESPhq.wmv

or this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gistqdCjGvw

[Pale Rider]

have you ever watched T.A.P.S. on the sci-fi channel? Those guys certainly leave one with the impression they honestly depict what they experience, and they have documented things which are very hard to explain away.....

such as this....

http://www.the-atlantic-paranormal-society.com/video/ESPhq.wmv

or this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gistqdCjGvw

I do watch them too when I remember, or see it listed on the TV guide. They've recorded some pretty odd stuff too. I watched them one night, and a little toy truck came flying out of this little garage it was in on a shelf. The garage had a LIP on it, so there was NO WAY it could have just ROLLED out of it off the shelf. It had to have been forced. They caught it on camera. Now how did that happen?

And that reminded me of another time I was sitting in an apartment with the dad of this girl I was dating in this old remodeled hotel back in Wisconsin. We'd sit up there and have a couple cold ones and watch the main drag in town out the windows, when one night we were sitting there, this coffee pot sitting on top of his refrigerator came flying out of it's base and hit the wall and rolled onto the floor. It was a modern drip coffee maker, and the warmer plates on them are dipped so that the pot sits securely in it. There is no way they can just, "come flying out of it." Not too long ago, an old guy we all called Mink died in his apartment crossed the hall. So after I picked up the coffee pot and put it back in the maker on the warmer, we both asked Mink not to do it again, and it didn't happen again.

[Black Lance]

???...egotistical?....hey, it was His idea, not mine.....

And could it not also be his idea to make a universe just for us to examine and explore?

[Hagbard Celine]

I've seen a ufo. Me and my dad saw it. It looked like a bright, shooting star that moved erratically and could stop and change direction. It was neat.

[diuretic]

That sounds like it was a lot of fun. I'd love to do that myself.

No strange sounds or anything in the night?

It really was extremely well done. A couple of times - and this was in the middle of the day - the hairs on the back of my neck stood up, especially when the guide pointed out some things that happened, that had several witnesses and were just unexplainable. If anyone gets a chance, take the tour, it's definitely worth it.




Alcatraz isn't very far from where I am. San Franfreakshow is just over the hills, maybe four hours from Reno. There's an evening tour of it that last about an hour and a half through the place, and it's pretty cheap. I REALLY want to take that tour.


I took a tour during the day at Alcatraz. Again, it was really interesting. The place is totally depressing though. But because of the history it's informative.

[diuretic]

And could it not also be his idea to make a universe just for us to examine and explore?

That's an issue I juggle around in my mind sometimes. I've got it down to two questions.

1. If we're the only planet in the universe with intelligent life on it, why?
2. If we're not the only planet in the universe with intelligent life on it, why?

I can go just about anywhere from those two questions.

[Kathianne]

I spent several nights on the Queen Mary in Long Beach. I did the tour they run where the actors come out and play their roles as the narrator tells you some of the weird things that happened on the ship. It was really good, very well done. Even in the middle of the day the tour was very atmospheric. I remember being shown the cabin with the bloodstains in the carpet. That one was admittedly weird. From memory a young woman was murdered in the cabin and she bled on the carpet. Apparently they have tried to remove the blood stains (they are very faded) but they keep coming back.

Of course that could be a load of old tosh, I don't know. Still, it was a great tour around the ship.

Okay, I did have a problem getting to sleep that night.....but then I have a fiercely active imagination.

I did that tour too! Funny thing as I have zip interests in ghosts, what stands out in my mind were the cabins. I was especially taken with the artifacts of the girl child.

[diuretic]

I did that tour too! Funny thing as I have zip interests in ghosts, what stands out in my mind were the cabins. I was especially taken with the artifacts of the girl child.

I don't remember that bit...I wish I'd taken some photos and now I can't remember even if photography was permitted. I like the bit where the "officer" from the past came out and did his bit and the place in the engine room where someone saw a ghost and there was some evidence for it as well. And that cabin with the bloodstains. I seem to remember also the swimming pool below decks (I hope I'm not confusing it with something else) which was very atmospheric. Good fun. Okay I admit, I kept looking over my shoulder as I was walking along :D

[Kathianne]

I don't remember that bit...I wish I'd taken some photos and now I can't remember even if photography was permitted. I like the bit where the "officer" from the past came out and did his bit and the place in the engine room where someone saw a ghost and there was some evidence for it as well. And that cabin with the bloodstains. I seem to remember also the swimming pool below decks (I hope I'm not confusing it with something else) which was very atmospheric. Good fun. Okay I admit, I kept looking over my shoulder as I was walking along :D

LOL! I just remember being disappointed that the weather was too bad to go out to the island, Catalina? This was back in 2000 and I was in LA for a grad class. This was an excursion some of us had decided to take. Very cool. We had this 'stipend money' and couldn't wait to drop it.

[Black Lance]

That's an issue I juggle around in my mind sometimes. I've got it down to two questions.

1. If we're the only planet in the universe with intelligent life on it, why?
2. If we're not the only planet in the universe with intelligent life on it, why?

I can go just about anywhere from those two questions.

We simply don't have enough information to decide this yet. The conditions for life are extremely strict, but it's a big universe out there, and we haven't even seen the surface of most planets. Since God didn't see fit to add a biology appendix after Revelation, it seems we humans will have to find out for ourselves.

[No1tovote4]

I spent several nights on the Queen Mary in Long Beach. I did the tour they run where the actors come out and play their roles as the narrator tells you some of the weird things that happened on the ship. It was really good, very well done. Even in the middle of the day the tour was very atmospheric. I remember being shown the cabin with the bloodstains in the carpet. That one was admittedly weird. From memory a young woman was murdered in the cabin and she bled on the carpet. Apparently they have tried to remove the blood stains (they are very faded) but they keep coming back.

Of course that could be a load of old tosh, I don't know. Still, it was a great tour around the ship.

Okay, I did have a problem getting to sleep that night.....but then I have a fiercely active imagination.

They did the Queen Mary on Ghost Hunters. Unfortunately one or more of the employees tried to trick the cameras and got caught. It looked so cool, until they showed how it was done. Nothing real cool happened while they were there.

On my honeymoon we went to the U.K. and stayed in only 'haunted' places, snapping pictures, etc. Unfortunately nothing cool happened. Next time we plan on staying longer and visiting less places and trying to get some EVPs as well.

[Pale Rider]

That's an issue I juggle around in my mind sometimes. I've got it down to two questions.

1. If we're the only planet in the universe with intelligent life on it, why?
2. If we're not the only planet in the universe with intelligent life on it, why?

I can go just about anywhere from those two questions.

Interesting questions.

I figure since "they say" that the universe has no end, that it's infinite, there HAS to be life out there, EXACTLY the same as ours. If not, the term infinite isn't accurate.

The problem I have with thinking the universe is has no end, well they can't prove that either, because by the time they see so far away, the light that's hitting the earth that we see is billions, trillions of light years away, hell, who knows how old it is. What we're looking at may not even be there anymore.

As far as ghosts go, if the body has no soul, then why does the body lose weight upon the moment of death? That would also give one the impression that the soul has mass, and can be measured. And how can people that "die" and are resuscitated know exactly what happened to them while they were dead?

[No1tovote4]

That's an issue I juggle around in my mind sometimes. I've got it down to two questions.

1. If we're the only planet in the universe with intelligent life on it, why?
2. If we're not the only planet in the universe with intelligent life on it, why?

I can go just about anywhere from those two questions.

Mathematically, if Evolution Theory is correct, there is no possible way that we are the only intelligent life in the universe.

[diuretic]

We simply don't have enough information to decide this yet. The conditions for life are extremely strict, but it's a big universe out there, and we haven't even seen the surface of most planets. Since God didn't see fit to add a biology appendix after Revelation, it seems we humans will have to find out for ourselves.

That's why I like exploring those questions. It fills me with a sense of wonder. Sometimes, when I'm travelling in the outback, I'll be sitting back and looking at the stars and out there with the clear night air and if there are no clouds, the feeling you get looking at all those stars is almost transcendental. It's actually scary to look out and think, "those are all suns, probably larger than ours, they have planets." And then I think, what if we are the only inhabited planet? And usually I'll follow that up with but what if a fraction of those suns have planets with intelligent life? Then I give up because I get a burst of existential angst :laugh2:

[Pale Rider]

They did the Queen Mary on Ghost Hunters. Unfortunately one or more of the employees tried to trick the cameras and got caught. It looked so cool, until they showed how it was done. Nothing real cool happened while they were there.
I seen a couple different programs on the QEII, and one of them had cameras set up, up in the bow, where they say a lot of noises come from. They didn't capture any aparitions, but they did get a lot of unexplained noises.


On my honeymoon we went to the U.K. and stayed in only 'haunted' places, snapping pictures, etc. Unfortunately nothing cool happened. Next time we plan on staying longer and visiting less places and trying to get some EVPs as well.
That's very cool No1.

So I take it you've seen the movie "White Noise."

[diuretic]

Interesting questions.

I figure since "they say" that the universe has no end, that it's infinite, there HAS to be life out there, EXACTLY the same as ours. If not, the term infinite isn't accurate.

The problem I have with thinking the universe is has no end, well they can't prove that either, because by the time they see so far away, the light that's hitting the earth that we see is billions, trillions of light years away, hell, who knows how old it is. What we're looking at may not even be there anymore.

I heard that someone has measured it. I found this:

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mystery_monday_040524.html

I am not scientifically minded (heck I can't even work with numbers effectively) so I have no way of challenging or defending this. But it's interesting.




As far as ghosts go, if the body has no soul, then why does the body lose weight upon the moment of death? That would also give one the impression that the soul has mass, and can be measured. And how can people that "die" and are resuscitated know exactly what happened to them while they were dead?


No idea. But it's good that we can wonder about these things. No duobt someone will come along with a perfectly rational explanation and proof and take all the fun out of wondering.

[Pale Rider]

That's why I like exploring those questions. It fills me with a sense of wonder. Sometimes, when I'm travelling in the outback, I'll be sitting back and looking at the stars and out there with the clear night air and if there are no clouds, the feeling you get looking at all those stars is almost transcendental. It's actually scary to look out and think, "those are all suns, probably larger than ours, they have planets." And then I think, what if we are the only inhabited planet? And usually I'll follow that up with but what if a fraction of those suns have planets with intelligent life? Then I give up because I get a burst of existential angst :laugh2:

Can you see the Milky Way from down under?

[diuretic]

Can you see the Milky Way from down under?

I really don't know. I think so. I should know shouldn't I? I can see the Southern Cross, no problems, it's easy to pick out, but the Milky Way...need to find out.

Just had a google, good old NASA...

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap020310.html

Yes, apparently we can. I need to bear that in mind next time I do the outback sky thing. Problem is I can lay on my back and stare at the stars and I get a real weird giddy feeling wondering about those questions and staring at the stars.

[Pale Rider]

I heard that someone has measured it. I found this:

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mystery_monday_040524.html

I am not scientifically minded (heck I can't even work with numbers effectively) so I have no way of challenging or defending this. But it's interesting.

No idea. But it's good that we can wonder about these things. No duobt someone will come along with a perfectly rational explanation and proof and take all the fun out of wondering.
Very interesting. Nice find, and very cool.

Well, according to Wikipedia, the speed of light is 186,282.397 miles per second, not rounded off. So a light year calculates out to be 58,784,998,100,000 miles away. So if they're saying the universe is 156 BILLION light years wide, that's 913,927,072,139,827,200,000,000 miles. Go ahead and try and say that one... :laugh:

[diuretic]

I think I'd be dribbling down the front of my shirt if I tried to say it, heck I can't even read it without my brain boggling! :D

[Pale Rider]

I think I'd be dribbling down the front of my shirt if I tried to say it, heck I can't even read it without my brain boggling! :D

But they say the universe is expanding. If they are saying it has a definite size, then what is it expanding into? Wouldn't that be space too?

[actsnoblemartin]

Milky way, thats a star right.


Can you see the Milky Way from down under?

[Gaffer]

Interesting questions.

I figure since "they say" that the universe has no end, that it's infinite, there HAS to be life out there, EXACTLY the same as ours. If not, the term infinite isn't accurate.

The problem I have with thinking the universe is has no end, well they can't prove that either, because by the time they see so far away, the light that's hitting the earth that we see is billions, trillions of light years away, hell, who knows how old it is. What we're looking at may not even be there anymore.

As far as ghosts go, if the body has no soul, then why does the body lose weight upon the moment of death? That would also give one the impression that the soul has mass, and can be measured. And how can people that "die" and are resuscitated know exactly what happened to them while they were dead?

Pale I believe the weight loss you are referring to is cause by fluids leaving the body. Along with excrement. When a person dies the bladder, kidneys, liver and bowels all release whatever is in them. Which in turn causes a slight drop in weight. Even gas has weight and gases are released as well.

[PostmodernProphet]

Mathematically, if Evolution Theory is correct, there is no possible way that we are the only intelligent life in the universe.

??....just out of curiosity, what is it you THINK Evolution Theory says about the origin of life......since it actually says nothing at all about it......

[PostmodernProphet]

Can you see the Milky Way from down under?

??....aren't all the stars we can see without a telescope a part of the Milky Way?

[darin]

re: Ghosts.

Sometimes I think about 'time' and how time works. I wonder if what we are seeing as ghosts are actually weird little merges of our time and another. For instance, I wonder of the ghosts see US as ghosts from their perspective? As if our reality and consciousness is bleeding into and overlapping with another. Know what I mean?

[Abbey Marie]

re: Ghosts.

Sometimes I think about 'time' and how time works. I wonder if what we are seeing as ghosts are actually weird little merges of our time and another. For instance, I wonder of the ghosts see US as ghosts from their perspective? As if our reality and consciousness is bleeding into and overlapping with another. Know what I mean?


Sounds kind of Sixth Sense-ish. And makes as much sense as any other explanation.

[No1tovote4]

??....aren't all the stars we can see without a telescope a part of the Milky Way?

No, distinctive stars are not part of the 'Milky Way' as that is the name given to the white strip accross the night sky made up of all the stars that are not distinctly seen as separate entities.

They are officially part of the 'Milky Way Galaxy', but not as the feature named 'Milky Way', of the night sky.

[darin]

Sounds kind of Sixth Sense-ish. And makes as much sense as any other explanation.

Thanks - can't back it up, but I know 'Time' is relative. And God is pretty amazing.

[No1tovote4]

??....just out of curiosity, what is it you THINK Evolution Theory says about the origin of life......since it actually says nothing at all about it......

Evolution Theory is not an origin theory. However statistically life would originate elsewhere without a doubt, Evolution Theory would show that of that life it would be statistically impossible for there to be no other intelligent life.

You are being disingenuous if you took me to say that Evolution Theory is a Theory of Origin.

[typomaniac]

Very interesting. Nice find, and very cool.

Well, according to Wikipedia, the speed of light is 186,282.397 miles per second, not rounded off. So a light year calculates out to be 58,784,998,100,000 miles away. So if they're saying the universe is 156 BILLION light years wide, that's 913,927,072,139,827,200,000,000 miles. Go ahead and try and say that one... :laugh:

Okay.

"Nine hundred thirteen sextillion, nine hundred twenty-seven quintillion, seventy-two quadrillion, one hundred thirty-nine trillion, eight hundred twenty-seven billion, two hundred million miles." :D

(huh huh huh...I said "sex.")

[Mr. P]

Okay.

"Nine hundred thirteen sextillion, nine hundred twenty-seven quintillion, seventy-two quadrillion, one hundred thirty-nine trillion, eight hundred twenty-seven billion, two hundred million miles." :D

(huh huh huh...I said "sex.")

Showoff!

[PostmodernProphet]

You are being disingenuous if you took me to say that Evolution Theory is a Theory of Origin.

nothing disingenuous about it....it was one logical interpretation of the words you posted.....I am glad it was the wrong one.....I do find, however, that the majority of the graduates of the American public education system mistakenly believe that evolution DOES explain origin of life.....

[Gaffer]

re: Ghosts.

Sometimes I think about 'time' and how time works. I wonder if what we are seeing as ghosts are actually weird little merges of our time and another. For instance, I wonder of the ghosts see US as ghosts from their perspective? As if our reality and consciousness is bleeding into and overlapping with another. Know what I mean?

I have considered this too. And it actually makes sense. Either we are viewing another point in time or some point has become stuck and replays itself.

[PostmodernProphet]

However statistically life would originate elsewhere without a doubt, Evolution Theory would show that of that life it would be statistically impossible for there to be no other intelligent life.

the statement is a bit cloudy, but obviously even if life originated here through random chance it would never be "impossible" that there was no other intelligent life.....it might be statistically unlikely, but even in studying statistics you learn that one of the random possibilities is that the projected result NEVER occurs......

[Pale Rider]

I really don't know. I think so. I should know shouldn't I? I can see the Southern Cross, no problems, it's easy to pick out, but the Milky Way...need to find out.

Just had a google, good old NASA...

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap020310.html

Yes, apparently we can. I need to bear that in mind next time I do the outback sky thing. Problem is I can lay on my back and stare at the stars and I get a real weird giddy feeling wondering about those questions and staring at the stars.

I definitely know what you mean. I've been out in the sticks miles away from anything and any lights myself. The stars are almost intimidating. The Milky Way is really very apparent here from North America.

Have you ever seen the Northern Lights?

[GW in Ohio]

Nope!

In 1973 I was camping out at a state park in Western Massachusetts. It was November and the park was empty, except for my tent.

Around 11:00 at night, I heard the wind pick up, and at the same exact moment I heard Indians chanting across the stream from where I was camped. It wasn't kids fooling around, or anything like that. It was Indians, and they were chanting.

Although I wasn't brave enough to go over and investigate, I wasn't afraid, either. I could sense there was no danger.

The next day I did some investigating at the County Library in Springfield. they directed me to the U. of Massachusetts at Amherst, where I researched Indian tribes that lived in the area, and what their chants might have sounded like. I found that a number of tribes had lived in the area, including the Housatonic tribe. It was months later when I was finally able to get a recording of what their chants sounded like.

Not surprisingly, it matched exactly what I had heard.

Do I believe in ghosts? Yes.

[Pale Rider]

Milky way, thats a star right.

No... the milky way is the outer swirls of stars of our galaxy. It's a real bright concentration of stars in the night sky that go from one end of the sky to the other in a ribbon.

[darin]

In 1973 I was camping out at a state park in Western Massachusetts. It was November and the park was empty, except for my tent.


...and a few weeks later, dmp celebrated his first birthday....

:)

[Pale Rider]

Pale I believe the weight loss you are referring to is cause by fluids leaving the body. Along with excrement. When a person dies the bladder, kidneys, liver and bowels all release whatever is in them. Which in turn causes a slight drop in weight. Even gas has weight and gases are released as well.

I'm not sure that's it Gaf... the weight loss is instant, before anything has a chance to be excreted.

[Pale Rider]

??....aren't all the stars we can see without a telescope a part of the Milky Way?

Well, yes, the Milky Way is visible with the naked eye. As a matter of fact, that's the best way to see it.

[Pale Rider]

re: Ghosts.

Sometimes I think about 'time' and how time works. I wonder if what we are seeing as ghosts are actually weird little merges of our time and another. For instance, I wonder of the ghosts see US as ghosts from their perspective? As if our reality and consciousness is bleeding into and overlapping with another. Know what I mean?

That sounds like as good of an explanation as any other.

I've often had similar thoughts, like that ghosts were left over energy from a different point in time and space.

[Pale Rider]

Okay.

"Nine hundred thirteen sextillion, nine hundred twenty-seven quintillion, seventy-two quadrillion, one hundred thirty-nine trillion, eight hundred twenty-seven billion, two hundred million miles." :D

(huh huh huh...I said "sex.")

Either that, or you slept in a Holiday Inn last night... :laugh2:

[Gaffer]

All the stars we can see with the naked eye are in the milky way. Our star is on the edge of the spiral along with those nearest to us. There are no nearby stars that are not part of the milky way.

[Pale Rider]

In 1973 I was camping out at a state park in Western Massachusetts. It was November and the park was empty, except for my tent.

Around 11:00 at night, I heard the wind pick up, and at the same exact moment I heard Indians chanting across the stream from where I was camped. It wasn't kids fooling around, or anything like that. It was Indians, and they were chanting.

Although I wasn't brave enough to go over and investigate, I wasn't afraid, either. I could sense there was no danger.

The next day I did some investigating at the County Library in Springfield. they directed me to the U. of Massachusetts at Amherst, where I researched Indian tribes that lived in the area, and what their chants might have sounded like. I found that a number of tribes had lived in the area, including the Housatonic tribe. It was months later when I was finally able to get a recording of what their chants sounded like.

Not surprisingly, it matched exactly what I had heard.

Do I believe in ghosts? Yes.

I would have been ecstatic to witness something like that. What an awesome experience. Perhaps there was a reason for those Indian spirits to have made themselves audible to you...

I graduated high school in 1973.

[Hitman_Hart]

Considering that I'm pretty busy right now, I'm not going to read the whole article you posted, but I will answer the question. I believe that the ghost stories aren't real. Obviously, most of the sightings have been reported during the night, and I'm pretty sure that you would be pretty tired. Now, I'm sure that if your brain is tired, you're more inquired to see something such as a dead family member appearing to you, a random ghost, and the reported wake up in the middle of the night, can't move, and then be abducted by aliens.

That's because if you wake up in the middle of the night, you can't move because your body is in lock down, so that you can't act out your dreams and such. Well, if you wake up then, your body still wouldn't be able to react in time and you might see an illusion of an alien or ghost.

[GW in Ohio]

I would have been ecstatic to witness something like that. What an awesome experience. Perhaps there was a reason for those Indian spirits to have made themselves audible to you...

I graduated high school in 1973.

I do believe that everything happens for a reason. I don't see a reason why that particular experience happened to me. I think I was just in the right place at the right time.

But it was something I'll never forget....

[typomaniac]

In 1973 I was camping out at a state park in Western Massachusetts. It was November and the park was empty, except for my tent.

Around 11:00 at night, I heard the wind pick up, and at the same exact moment I heard Indians chanting across the stream from where I was camped. It wasn't kids fooling around, or anything like that. It was Indians, and they were chanting.

Although I wasn't brave enough to go over and investigate, I wasn't afraid, either. I could sense there was no danger.

The next day I did some investigating at the County Library in Springfield. they directed me to the U. of Massachusetts at Amherst, where I researched Indian tribes that lived in the area, and what their chants might have sounded like. I found that a number of tribes had lived in the area, including the Housatonic tribe. It was months later when I was finally able to get a recording of what their chants sounded like.

Not surprisingly, it matched exactly what I had heard.

Do I believe in ghosts? Yes.

Not that I doubt you, but did you ever investigate whether anyone in that area was doing a re-enactment of some kind of ceremonial dance that night?

Native Americans on reservations do performances like that (often for the public) all the time.

[Hagbard Celine]

I see dead people :tinfoil: EEK!

[eighballsidepocket]

Coming strictly from my Christian perspective.

I don't think these things we call ghosts are ghosts, but are just demonic manifestation to mislead, people, and misdirect their lives into realms that are the anti-thesis of what God, our Creator intends for His human race.

The Art Bell/George Norrey stuff to me has so much to do with the greatest deception of the human race. The beautiful, but fallen angel, Satan, has a myriad of demonic hosts that masquerade as angels of light, and are just plain "bent" on duping the human race into looking everywhere for spiritual meaning, and purpose, except to the true and real God of the bible.

Satan isn't some creature running around in red long Johns with a pitch fork. If you read scripture, you will find that he was of the highest order of the angels, and most likely a Seraphim, or one of the attending creatures that actually was before God's throne. As with the human race, angels were given free-will to embrace their Creator or reject, and as the scripture account attests, Satan rebelled and influenced at least 1/3 of the God's created heavenly beings called angels to follow-suit. It is attested to in the old testament (Isaiah) where Satan claims to desire to raise himself above God himself and to be personally exhaulted by all of creation. This was the epitome of sin or rebellion against the One in Whom he Satan had been blessed with so much (his life and his very stature and power).

The bible also states that he/Satan was beautiful, and most of all cunning with I.Q. that exceeds any of mankind. With that, we have a foe, that desires that we not look to the God of the bible as our sustenance. Through the world, and his deceptions that often look very spiritual, and miraculous we have the potential to be misled, if we do not fill our minds with God's scriptural truths to counter his lies and guile.

There will be many, many, who will claim to be the Messiah, and will lead mankind on a wild goose chase into oblivion and hell. Wide is the road to perdition, narrow is the road that follows the Truth. Narrow road means a tough road. Wide road means an easy road or life. As the first verses of the book of John says, Jesus was and is the Truth, and Light of mankind, though mankind in masse rejected Him.

Satan, again is no dummy. I personally believe that the UFO, Ghosts, Hauntings, spirit mediums, Wicca, Mother Earth, Scientology, and many other cults and phenomenas all carry the finger prints of Satan's master plan as revealed in the book of Revelations.

Satan's biggest tool is to get us off track from seeking the Truth. He will use all guile, and deception. If he can get us to worship intellect, over common sense or wisdom, he has done his job well. Above all else, Satan does not want the Jesus of the bible to be venerated for who He is.

He/Satan is also a very duped or in-denial creature that has already lost his battle with God, but is in such denial and filled with such self-centered hatred of God and His creation; mankind, who ultimately was created to glorify God, that he stops at nothing to bring us all down with him into the final pit of no return.

There is no such thing as white or friendly spirits ..........They are all black. White magic is synonymous with black magic. The demonic hosts that work through these mediums and witches of Wicca are just using these people who think they control the spirits, but are just dupes in Satan's ultimate game of human destruction.

People who as children who innocently played with Ouija boards, can attest to the mental, emotional problems and odd phenomenas that have plagued their lives after not going near those type of psuedo spiritual tools of communicating with the alleged "other" world of spirits.

When we open ourselves up to delve into these so called spiritual worlds of communication, we ignorantly and sometimes willfully open ourselves up willfull permission for our souls to be oppressed and impressed heavily with demonic harrassment, and sometimes out and out control.

Have you ever pondered the interesting phenomena and connections between so many gross, serial type murderers and their infactuation with demonic and Satanic delving in their childhood or past and present? It's no coincidence. Many of these serial killers claim voices told them to commit atrocities. At some time in their lives, they willfully allowed permision for the dark, fallen spriitual realm of demonic hosts to have their way in their lives.

The spirits that are reached via non biblical means are not friendly, but only start out as such to dupe and pull in more hapless human beings into a false trail to nothingness, but depression, and demonic oppression.

God has struggled with mankind for thousands of years in the area of where man seeks to find him. Man builds golden idols, burns incense, does penance, nails himself to crosses, walks miles on his bloodied knees, to get what? An "atta boy, your now worthy."?

Even the first king of Israel, willfully went to a witch in order to conjure up a dead prophet (Samuel) in order to receive help. King Saul knew full well that what he did was totally againt his God's will. Saul died a miserable, and mentally ill life, ending in his suicide while in battle.

Mankind all along stumbles over the stone of stumbling, namely Jesus Christ, the cornerstone, of the new, cleansed, forgiven, and crucified life that opens man up to straight-on, restored connection and reconciliation with his Maker. Satan plainly doesn't want us to make that commitment. He convinces us that the Christian life is boring, scarey, constricting to our lifestyle, etc... All lies!

Some folks religion is saving the planet, saving the sea otters, saving the Redwood trees, installing a particular system of government that has to be the utopian answer, making oneself a "big shot" in business....etc.etc.etc.. All along, Satan just sits back and lets our race self destruct and worship materialism, the world, and the temporal as the end to all. "Live now, for there is no tomorrow.".

All these strange, enticing, phenomena that Western culture is so enanamored with is only going to increase. The bible says that false miracles upon false miracles will dupe and dupe even the intellectuals, as they will be so filled with themselves and their own self estimate of themselves and rejection of the biblical Creator, that they will be blinded to their very own blindness to realize the deception.

The Gospel is a message of simplicity. It is also a message of death; death to self, death to pride, death to finding meaning in life in this world that will one day rust away into molecules. It is also a message of "life", "eternal life". Man lives as though he can take it all with him. That's one of the deceptions. This old world has so much to bless man with, but man must keep those blessing in perspective. They are not to become his ultimate goal or identity of being or existence. If that happens, he/man will be most pitied at the Great Judgement. God doesn't want our works of good or whatever. He wants us. He desires us, to be in communion with Him as He designed us bodily, mentally, emotionally, willfully, and spiritually in the beginning.

UFO's? Ghosts? Virgin Mary caricatures on a buildings, Jesus portraits in the clouds? All deceptions to lead mankind down a wide, easy path of destruction. Faith isn't an expression or result of physical eyesight, but a hope that is instilled in the inner man/woman by God Himself. Faith is a reality that supercedes the touch, smell, taste, hearing and eyesight.

Remember the finger prints of any cult is how they deal with Jesus Christ of the bible. If in any way a ghost, apparition, burning bosom experience, etc., is confronted with biblical scripture in respect to true Jesus Christ, it will either leave your presence or manifest its true nature and agenda..........anger, distaste for the Saviour, etc..

The trademarks of Christian cults is their total abasement of Christ of the bible; the denial of His divinity. One large belief system says He's merely a created being, namely the archangle Michael, another notable Christian cult says, He's one of Many Jesus's, and in fact was the brother of Lucifer himself. In fact one can become a sort of Jesus or Adam of your own planet with celestial, polygamous marriage for eternity. All manmade utopian, carnal, desires, that dissolve in credibility before the scriptures.

Any group, entity, or system of belief that diminishes Christs Godhood, and Virgin Birth, is suspect, and wasnt' authored by God. Guaranteed!

It indeed is very scarey!

[Pale Rider]

Coming strictly from my Christian perspective.

I don't think these things we call ghosts are ghosts, but are just demonic manifestation to mislead, people, and misdirect their lives into realms that are the anti-thesis of what God, our Creator intends for His human race.

I've given thought to that myself. But I think with so much imperfection in THIS world, why couldn't there be PARANORMAL imperfections, say, someone doesn't realize they're dead, and their soul tries to carry on as if they were still alive, or they somehow got trapped between where they were when alive, and where they were supposed to go when they died. Maybe they need help. I'd certainly like to know the answers.

[darin]

Wow Eightball...Great post.

[darin]

I've given thought to that myself. But I think with so much imperfection in THIS world, why couldn't there be PARANORMAL imperfections, say, someone doesn't realize they're dead, and their soul tries to carry on as if they were still alive, or they somehow got trapped between where they were when alive, and where they were supposed to go when they died. Maybe they need help. I'd certainly like to know the answers.

because we don't get to decide where to go, I believe. When we die, our spirits instantaneously arrive at their destination. No journey to speak of.

[Mr. P]

Didn't we have a member at USMB that said there was a ghost in the house he was living in? Was that Dan? I don't remember.

[Gaffer]

I have a problem with eights deception idea.

If I do something to make Pale and Eight believe other than the way they are suppose to believe. Should they be punished for listening to me? Should they be damned because they are searching in their hearts for the greatness of God and I misled them? The whole bible thing is based on satan's tempting and deceiving. So everyone he deceives gets punished for being deceived.

Pointing to scripture isn't proving anything to me. Point out logically how punishment for being deceived is valid. To me its kind of like punishing the victim of a crime for what the criminal did.

[darin]

I have a problem with eights deception idea.

If I do something to make Pale and Eight believe other than the way they are suppose to believe. Should they be punished for listening to me? Should they be damned because they are searching in their hearts for the greatness of God and I misled them? The whole bible thing is based on satan's tempting and deceiving. So everyone he deceives gets punished for being deceived.

Pointing to scripture isn't proving anything to me. Point out logically how punishment for being deceived is valid. To me its kind of like punishing the victim of a crime for what the criminal did.



Eve (and subsequently all mankind) was/is punished for believing a deception.

re: non-scripturally, if I take in stolen goods, I 'may' be punished, regardless of my foreknowledge.

But you're arguing/asking something outside the scope of "What are Ghosts?" etc.

:)

[Mr. P]

The Holy Ghost is.......

1. A spoon
2. Pudding
3. An old wives tale
4. A real Ghost
5. There is no such thing

:)

[darin]

The Holy Ghost is.......

1. A spoon
2. Pudding
3. An old wives tale
4. A real Ghost
5. There is no such thing

:)

That's not called for, is it?

[Mr. P]

That's not called for, is it?

Sure. It's about ghosts, right?

[darin]

Sure. It's about ghosts, right?

you are mocking a figure sacred to Christians and haven't the balls to apologize or otherwise act 'decent'. If you want to create thread mocking religious symbols - that's on you.

[Gaffer]

Eve (and subsequently all mankind) was/is punished for believing a deception.

re: non-scripturally, if I take in stolen goods, I 'may' be punished, regardless of my foreknowledge.

But you're arguing/asking something outside the scope of "What are Ghosts?" etc.

:)

I was joining in Pale and eights conversation, not trying to throw the thread off track. Sorry about that.

[Mr. P]

you are mocking a figure sacred to Christians and haven't the balls to apologize or otherwise act 'decent'. If you want to create thread mocking religious symbols - that's on you.

I was not mocking anything. What would an evangelist know about the Holy Ghost?

I'd also direct your attention the the forum, Religion/Ethics.
Go play with someone else.

[typomaniac]

Eve (and subsequently all mankind) was/is punished for believing a deception.
This interpretation is IMO the worst aspect of Western religion.

As soon as you start blaming the victim, it gets much easier to fly planes into buildings. Not to mention victimizing others out of sheer greed.

[Swarm]

Have any of ya watched what the bleep do we know? and the second one? That is some crazy shit. And the greatest part of all, we cant explain it.

[Pale Rider]

because we don't get to decide where to go, I believe. When we die, our spirits instantaneously arrive at their destination. No journey to speak of.

I think the decisions we're making now absolutely are the determining factor in where we go after death, don't you?

And I've read a few of these stories about people that are dead for a few minutes and then are revived. They tell of being in a tunnel of light being pulled in, and they often see family and friends of deceased there, and they have a feeling of overwhelming love and don't want to leave. Sounds to me like going to heaven my be some sort of journey. I guess I'll find out someday either way.

[Swarm]

I think the decisions we're making now absolutely are the determining factor in where we go after death, don't you?

And I've read a few of these stories about people that are dead for a few minutes and then are revived. They tell of being in a tunnel of light being pulled in, and they often see family and friends of deceased there, and they have a feeling of overwhelming love and don't want to leave. Sounds to me like going to heaven my be some sort of journey. I guess I'll find out someday either way.

Any of ya ever wonder if what we believe thats what happens? If maybe brain is messing with us and the reality is something different?

[Gaffer]

Any of ya ever wonder if what we believe thats what happens? If maybe brain is messing with us and the reality is something different?

That's the scientific theory for near death experience. Just your brain playing tricks with you. It's just a theory though. Tests have been done but nothing conclusive.

[typomaniac]

And I've read a few of these stories about people that are dead for a few minutes and then are revived. They tell of being in a tunnel of light being pulled in, and they often see family and friends of deceased there, and they have a feeling of overwhelming love and don't want to leave. Sounds to me like going to heaven my be some sort of journey. I guess I'll find out someday either way.

What I find interesting about those stories (among other things) is that nobody talks about descending into an inferno of screaming and torture. So, even though we may be going to different places, these accounts at least suggest that there's no hell.

[Swarm]

I did hear about a few cases where the patient was dead and yet was able to describe everything that was happeneing in the room, including what nurses where doing with their backs to the patient. Thats freaky. Plus there has to be something more to us then just a brain. If all we were was just a brain we would be a computer... Wonder what we would be like if we used 100% of our brains.

[Swarm]

What I find interesting about those stories (among other things) is that nobody talks about descending into an inferno of screaming and torture. So, even though we may be going to different places, these accounts at least suggest that there's no hell.

Actually there are stories like that. They are a little different though. There is one that sticks out in my mind. A guy was in a hospital, and he had a few nurses that he never saw before come in and tell him that they need to do some tests to him. So he went with them, but the hospital was different, and after a while he no longer could see very far and the nurses were subtly changing into something evil. After he stopped they started to attack him, and he ran back to his room somehow, and later on he had scratches that were inflicted on him by the evil nurses.

[No1tovote4]

the statement is a bit cloudy, but obviously even if life originated here through random chance it would never be "impossible" that there was no other intelligent life.....it might be statistically unlikely, but even in studying statistics you learn that one of the random possibilities is that the projected result NEVER occurs......

So statistically unlikely as to be basically impossible. When looking at the math it actually showed an answer of 1:1.

You are now being overly "factual" and start seeing the trees and can no longer see the forest. The possibility of another intelligent species not developing came to something like. .0000000000000000000001. As close to impossible as the math allowed.

[No1tovote4]

Eve (and subsequently all mankind) was/is punished for believing a deception.

re: non-scripturally, if I take in stolen goods, I 'may' be punished, regardless of my foreknowledge.

But you're arguing/asking something outside the scope of "What are Ghosts?" etc.

:)

No, Eve was punished for not fessing up.

She was told, one rule. "Do not eat of these two trees."

It wasn't that she was "deceived" that was an excuse. She never just simply fessed up, they didn't take responsibility for their action. Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed Satan, when in reality both of them made a direct decision to break the one commandment that they had, after the more general one to catalog all life.

I believe, that the lesson in the story isn't to never get fooled. It is to take responsibility.

[No1tovote4]

I did hear about a few cases where the patient was dead and yet was able to describe everything that was happeneing in the room, including what nurses where doing with their backs to the patient. Thats freaky. Plus there has to be something more to us then just a brain. If all we were was just a brain we would be a computer... Wonder what we would be like if we used 100% of our brains.

This is a myth.

http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percent.asp

We don't use it all at once, but we do use all of our brains.

[No1tovote4]

Actually there are stories like that. They are a little different though. There is one that sticks out in my mind. A guy was in a hospital, and he had a few nurses that he never saw before come in and tell him that they need to do some tests to him. So he went with them, but the hospital was different, and after a while he no longer could see very far and the nurses were subtly changing into something evil. After he stopped they started to attack him, and he ran back to his room somehow, and later on he had scratches that were inflicted on him by the evil nurses.

There are stories of being taken to an "evil" place in a near death experience. However this one seems more like a moving nightmare episode. He can scratch himself during such an episode. These can happen when given steroids for healing, or other drugs for "sleep".

[No1tovote4]

I was not mocking anything. What would an evangelist know about the Holy Ghost?

I'd also direct your attention the the forum, Religion/Ethics.
Go play with someone else.

Who would if not an Evangelist? Are they somehow incapable of understanding such a thing?

[Missileman]

No, Eve was punished for not fessing up.

She was told, one rule. "Do not eat of these two trees."

It wasn't that she was "deceived" that was an excuse. She never just simply fessed up, they didn't take responsibility for their action. Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed Satan, when in reality both of them made a direct decision to break the one commandment that they had, after the more general one to catalog all life.

I believe, that the lesson in the story isn't to never get fooled. It is to take responsibility.

How could they have known that violating the one rule was wrong without first eating from the tree?

[No1tovote4]

How could they have known that violating the one rule was wrong without first eating from the tree?

Because they were told so. Can you show more of a total lack of knowledge of the story?

Anyway here is the reader's digest version so you can know what you are talking about:

God says, "See those trees? Don't eat of their fruit!"

They say, "Okay, God!"

Satan says, "God is trying to trick you into not knowing cool stuff, eat it!"

Eve says, "Well, gee! Okay!"

Adam says, "What have you done?!! You ate that fruit God told us not to eat!"

Eve says, "But this serpent told me it was cool... And it tastes great and is less filling at the same time!"

Adam say, "Well, if you say so..." *Chomp*

Adam and Eve suddenly realize they are naked, go and get leaves to cover themselves while God comes down....

"Did you eat that fruit?!" God asks.

Adam, "The woman made me do it!"

Eve, "It was the serpent!"

God, "Me Damnit! I gave you one rule and you can't follow it? Then you LIE?!! GET OUT!"

[Mr. P]

Who would if not an Evangelist? Are they somehow incapable of understanding such a thing?

I meant to type evangelical. Better known as "Bible THUMPERS" in the South.

There are exceptions of course.

[Gaffer]

Because they were told so. Can you show more of a total lack of knowledge of the story?

Anyway here is the reader's digest version so you can know what you are talking about:

God says, "See those trees? Don't eat of their fruit!"

They say, "Okay, God!"

Satan says, "God is trying to trick you into not knowing cool stuff, eat it!"

Eve says, "Well, gee! Okay!"

Adam says, "What have you done?!! You ate that fruit God told us not to eat!"

Eve says, "But this serpent told me it was cool... And it tastes great and is less filling at the same time!"

Adam say, "Well, if you say so..." *Chomp*

Adam and Eve suddenly realize they are naked, go and get leaves to cover themselves while God comes down....

"Did you eat that fruit?!" God asks.

Adam, "The woman made me do it!"

Eve, "It was the serpent!"

God, "Dangit! I gave you one rule and you can't follow it? Then you LIE?!! GET OUT!"

And be damned to hell on top of it.

[No1tovote4]

And be damned to hell on top of it.

Nah, they got to just kill an innocent animal and thus cleanse themselves. Along with washing in special bathtubs and staying away from women while they were on their periods...

Then along comes this guy who changes all of that.

:coffee:

[Missileman]

Because they were told so. Can you show more of a total lack of knowledge of the story?

Anyway here is the reader's digest version so you can know what you are talking about:

God says, "See those trees? Don't eat of their fruit!"

They say, "Okay, God!"

Satan says, "God is trying to trick you into not knowing cool stuff, eat it!"

Eve says, "Well, gee! Okay!"

Adam says, "What have you done?!! You ate that fruit God told us not to eat!"

Eve says, "But this serpent told me it was cool... And it tastes great and is less filling at the same time!"

Adam say, "Well, if you say so..." *Chomp*

Adam and Eve suddenly realize they are naked, go and get leaves to cover themselves while God comes down....

"Did you eat that fruit?!" God asks.

Adam, "The woman made me do it!"

Eve, "It was the serpent!"

God, "Dangit! I gave you one rule and you can't follow it? Then you LIE?!! GET OUT!"

Try to follow along. Adam and Eve were told not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil...AKA right and wrong. If they had no knowledge of right and wrong, they couldn't possibly understand that it would be wrong to disobey God whether it was only one rule or a hundred.

Think of it this way. I tell a child that they can only have three cookies out of the cookie jar knowing all the while the kid can't count/has no concept of numbers. Make sense to you to kick this child out of the house and curse it to a life of pain and hunger for eating four cookies?

[No1tovote4]

Try to follow along. Adam and Eve were told not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil...AKA right and wrong. If they had no knowledge of right and wrong, they couldn't possibly understand that it would be wrong to disobey God whether it was only one rule or a hundred.

Think of it this way. I tell a child that they can only have three cookies out of the cookie jar knowing all the while the kid can't count/has no concept of numbers. Make sense to you to kick this child out of the house and curse it to a life of pain and hunger for eating four cookies?

People can understand the concept of not. Adam, in the story, (how did you say it? Try to keep up... was it? 'Follow' your own advice. ;)) is shocked and frightened of her breach (shows clear knowledge of 'wrong'), and takes some convincing to break the same rule. They knew it was 'wrong' because they were told it was wrong. Some knowledge you get from 'teaching' as in 'being told'.... Not everything you have learned in your life was because of personal experience.

Did I type slowly enough for you?

[PostmodernProphet]

Eve (and subsequently all mankind) was/is punished for believing a deception.

the deception is irrelevant to the sin.....she chose to act in disobedience and was punished.....the fact that she didn't get what she thought she would get doesn't deflect the disobedience.....


As soon as you start blaming the victim

who's the victim in that story?....the apple?......


The possibility of another intelligent species not developing came to something like. .0000000000000000000001.

still better odds than for life to have randomly occurred at all......


I believe, that the lesson in the story isn't to never get fooled. It is to take responsibility.

actually, I think the intent of the passage is to show that, given even half a chance, humans will be disobedient......


I meant to type evangelical. Better known as "Bible THUMPERS" in the South.



??...actually, that would be the fundamentalists, not the evangelicals.....

[Missileman]

People can understand the concept of not. Adam, in the story, (how did you say it? Try to keep up... was it? 'Follow' your own advice. ;)) is shocked and frightened of her breach (shows clear knowledge of 'wrong'), and takes some convincing to break the same rule. They knew it was 'wrong' because they were told it was wrong. Some knowledge you get from 'teaching' as in 'being told'.... Not everything you have learned in your life was because of personal experience.

Did I type slowly enough for you?

Baloney...you can't differentiate between right and wrong without knowledge of right and wrong in the same manner that you can't differentiate between 14 and 37 without a knowledge of numbers.

They were told not to...they couldn't possibly have understood that it was wrong until they had eaten from the tree.

Type as fast or as slow as you like, but maybe you should concentrate more on the quality of your argument rather than its velocity.

[PostmodernProphet]

. I tell a child that they can only have three cookies out of the cookie jar knowing all the while the kid can't count/has no concept of numbers

you see, that's why God makes a better parent than you.....he didn't make them count when they didn't have a concept of numbers, he just said "Don't eat the cookies!"......

[Missileman]

you see, that's why God makes a better parent than you.....he didn't make them count when they didn't have a concept of numbers, he just said "Don't eat the cookies!"......

No, he just held them accountable for right and wrong when they had no concept of the same.

[PostmodernProphet]

They were told not to...they couldn't possibly have understood that it was wrong until they had eaten from th

your error is that you have equated "Being aware of the consequences" with "Being smart enough to follow instructions"......

they were told not to eat from that tree....they had received instructions....they chose to act in contradiction to those instructions......true, they might not have realized that God would be pissed off and throw them out, but they were smart enough to know what God wanted them to do and what they were doing.....

[No1tovote4]

Baloney...you can't differentiate between right and wrong without knowledge of right and wrong in the same manner that you can't differentiate between 14 and 37 without a knowledge of numbers.

They were told not to...they couldn't possibly have understood that it was wrong until they had eaten from the tree.

Type as fast or as slow as you like, but maybe you should concentrate more on the quality of your argument rather than its velocity.

This is inane. One can understand 'wrong' and 'rule' without differentiating between 'good' and 'evil'.

What they didn't understand were consequences. The idea that 'wrong' can only equate with 'evil' is rubbish. They were told not to, knew that they 'shouldn't' so much so that Adam reacted with shock and dismay according to the story. It is pretense to say, "Well, it isn't their fault, they didn't know between Good and Evil! They certainly knew that they were 'not' to do that.

And it is clear that you missed my original point. God already knew that they had eaten it, they were asked the question to see if they'd fess up. They did not, that is when he became angry. At that point they compounded their problem by again acting wrongly and lying, there was no more excuse for it, they most certainly knew 'good and evil' at that point.

[Missileman]

your error is that you have equated "Being aware of the consequences" with "Being smart enough to follow instructions"......

they were told not to eat from that tree....they had received instructions....they chose to act in contradiction to those instructions......true, they might not have realized that God would be pissed off and throw them out, but they were smart enough to know what God wanted them to do and what they were doing.....

I'm saying that without any knowledge of right and wrong, there is no way to be aware that your actions are wrong even if you are told to not do somethng. Similarly, in our legal system, people who are unable to distinguish right from wrong are not held responsible for a crime.

[No1tovote4]

your error is that you have equated "Being aware of the consequences" with "Being smart enough to follow instructions"......

they were told not to eat from that tree....they had received instructions....they chose to act in contradiction to those instructions......true, they might not have realized that God would be pissed off and throw them out, but they were smart enough to know what God wanted them to do and what they were doing.....

Exactly. Then when God came and asked them what they had done, instead of just fessing up and asking forgiveness for their stupidity, they immediately attempted to lay blame elsewhere, this is when God became angry.

[No1tovote4]

I'm saying that without any knowledge of right and wrong, there is no way to be aware that your actions are wrong even if you are told to not do somethng. Similarly, in our legal system, people who are unable to distinguish right from wrong are not held responsible for a crime.

You aren't keeping up. My point was that God didn't become angry until they lied to him about their action and attempted to lay blame elsewhere.

[JohnDoe]

No, he just held them accountable for right and wrong when they had no concept of the same.


obiedience was the issue....not right from wrong or good from evil which they later acquired knowledge....the lesson in the ''story'' involved obiedience and the introduction of deceit by the serpent imo...

[Pale Rider]

obiedience was the issue....not right from wrong or good from evil which they later acquired knowledge....the lesson in the ''story'' involved obiedience and the introduction of deceit by the serpent imo...

Exactly JD, Adam and Eve didn't even have a need to know right from wrong, or good from evil. God was directing them, and he'd told them not to eat the apples. That's all they needed to know.

[PostmodernProphet]

I'm saying that without any knowledge of right and wrong, there is no way to be aware that your actions are wrong even if you are told to not do somethng.

let's say you are an employer running a business that requires a process to be done in a particular order for the product to come out right......

you hire an employee and instruct him in the order in which he should do things.....one day he decides he doesn't want to do things in the order you instructed him and wants to do things in a different order......the product is ruined.....

now, he might not have known that the product would be ruined if he did it in a different order, but he still didn't follow instructions......

as an employer are you going to be unhappy with him for not following instructions?

[Mr. P]

obiedience was the issue....not right from wrong or good from evil which they later acquired knowledge....the lesson in the ''story'' involved obiedience and the introduction of deceit by the serpent imo...

:2up:

[GW in Ohio]

Not that I doubt you, but did you ever investigate whether anyone in that area was doing a re-enactment of some kind of ceremonial dance that night?

Native Americans on reservations do performances like that (often for the public) all the time.

As I was leaving the park the next day, heading out to the library, I stopped at the entrance where the state employees check people in and collect their (nominal) camping fee. I asked if anyone else was in the park the night before.

He said, "Nope. You were the only one."

[Abbey Marie]

As I was leaving the park the next day, heading out to the library, I stopped at the entrance where the state employees check people in and collect their (nominal) camping fee. I asked if anyone else was in the park the night before.

He said, "Nope. You were the only one."

Very cool!

[darin]

No, Eve was punished for not fessing up.

She was told, one rule. "Do not eat of these two trees."

It wasn't that she was "deceived" that was an excuse. She never just simply fessed up, they didn't take responsibility for their action. Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed Satan, when in reality both of them made a direct decision to break the one commandment that they had, after the more general one to catalog all life.

I believe, that the lesson in the story isn't to never get fooled. It is to take responsibility.


No - she was punished for disobeying - NOT for 'not admitting it.'

She used 'deceived' as an excuse because she 'believed' the serpent and disobeyed God.

[darin]

I was not mocking anything. What would an evangelist know about the Holy Ghost?

I'd also direct your attention the the forum, Religion/Ethics.
Go play with someone else.

Why are you lying? What are you trying to prove here? 8ball brought up his Christian beliefs and your FIRST reply was to Mock God and taunt. Your sickening fascination/obession with mocking or ridiculing Christians at every opportunity is tiresome and betrays to the world your under-developed social skills.



I think the decisions we're making now absolutely are the determining factor in where we go after death, don't you?


Sure? Did I say otherwise?



And I've read a few of these stories about people that are dead for a few minutes and then are revived. They tell of being in a tunnel of light being pulled in, and they often see family and friends of deceased there, and they have a feeling of overwhelming love and don't want to leave. Sounds to me like going to heaven my be some sort of journey. I guess I'll find out someday either way.

My dad went through that - however, in every case I've read they weren't moving of their own accord - but being pulled/pushed by an outside force. And the feeling of time-passing doesn't mean things didn't happen instantaneously.

[Hagbard Celine]

Why are you lying? What are you trying to prove here? 8ball brought up his Christian beliefs and your FIRST reply was to Mock God and taunt. Your sickening fascination/obession with mocking or ridiculing Christians at every opportunity is tiresome and betrays to the world your under-developed social skills.

Sure? Did I say otherwise?

My dad went through that - however, in every case I've read they weren't moving of their own accord - but being pulled/pushed by an outside force. And the feeling of time-passing doesn't mean things didn't happen instantaneously.
I saw a documentary on this -- the same phenomenon can be achieved in a g-force flight simulator. Pilots in training describe the same thing--tunnel, light, memory flashes, a feeling of bliss--just before unconsciousness. They determined that it's something that the brain does when it thinks the body is going to die. People who have survived parachuting malfunctions and fallen to the ground also describe a similar feeling of bliss and an "acceptance of the inevitability of death" or something like that--they all experience memory wipe-out just before the point of impact.

[JohnDoe]

let's say you are an employer running a business that requires a process to be done in a particular order for the product to come out right......

you hire an employee and instruct him in the order in which he should do things.....one day he decides he doesn't want to do things in the order you instructed him and wants to do things in a different order......the product is ruined.....

now, he might not have known that the product would be ruined if he did it in a different order, but he still didn't follow instructions......

as an employer are you going to be unhappy with him for not following instructions?

I believe this is why this story of yours and the story in the Bible is about "obedience to those much more knowledgeable than you" :D

Adam and Eve did not even know sin...they did not know disobedience, until the Serpent confused them with misleading statements that seemed to be true and enticing....they lost faith and trust in their Creator through deception and deceit....which lead them to choose to disobey God's command...(although I realize this is arguable, I still believe this is a passage supporting the spiritual theory of being born with free will).

the whole story also sets us up for following what we believe to be the words of God and being obedient to HIM....or else, kinda thingy.... lol:eek:

jd

[Mr. P]

Why are you lying? What are you trying to prove here? 8ball brought up his Christian beliefs and your FIRST reply was to Mock God and taunt. Your sickening fascination/obession with mocking or ridiculing Christians at every opportunity is tiresome and betrays to the world your under-developed social skills.


Please show me where I addressed 8balls post. :rolleyes:

[JohnDoe]

I saw a documentary on this -- the same phenomenon can be achieved in a g-force flight simulator. Pilots in training describe the same thing--tunnel, light, memory flashes, a feeling of bliss--just before unconsciousness. They determined that it's something that the brain does when it thinks the body is going to die. People who have survived parachuting malfunctions and fallen to the ground also describe a similar feeling of bliss and an "acceptance of the inevitability of death" or something like that--they all experience memory wipe-out just before the point of impact.
Yes HC, I saw this documentary ages ago too, but I have also seen documentaries on the people that have died and experienced this phenominon, that have described themselves floating above themselves or traveling in spirit to where a relative is before being drawn in to the tunnel of light and they have been able to describe the actual actions of those alive in those scenes, when they were supposedly dead, and not brought back to life yet.....?

so, there is evidence, eyewitness evidence to both, I suppose....

jd

[Mr. P]

I believe this is why this story of yours and the story in the Bible is about "obedience to those much more knowledgeable than you" :D

Adam and Eve did not even know sin...they did not know disobedience, until the Serpent confused them with misleading statements that seemed to be true and enticing....they lost faith and trust in their Creator through deception and deceit....which lead them to choose to disobey God's command...(although I realize this is arguable, I still believe this is a passage supporting the spiritual theory of being born with free will).

the whole story also sets us up for following what we believe to be the words of God and being obedient to HIM....or else, kinda thingy.... lol:eek:

jd

I think your understanding of the Bible is exceptional.
*Don't look now but your devotion to study is showing* :)

[darin]

Please show me where I addressed 8balls post. :rolleyes:

I didn't claim you dissed 8Ball's post. If you want to ask a question about something I wrote, please as a courtesy, at least make sure I've written it.


To clarify -

8Ball brought up a VERY in-depth post about his Faith. YOUR FIRST REPLY after that was to mock the Christian God. You know you were mocking. I know you were mocking. Your innocent little "Wha?? I didn't do 'nothin'" attitude now is juvenile.

[darin]

I believe this is why this story of yours and the story in the Bible is about "obedience to those much more knowledgeable than you" :D

Adam and Eve did not even know sin...they did not know disobedience, until the Serpent confused them with misleading statements that seemed to be true and enticing....they lost faith and trust in their Creator through deception and deceit....which lead them to choose to disobey God's command...(although I realize this is arguable, I still believe this is a passage supporting the spiritual theory of being born with free will).

the whole story also sets us up for following what we believe to be the words of God and being obedient to HIM....or else, kinda thingy.... lol:eek:

jd


They absolutely knew the truth, and they disobeyed. The believed the Serpent who told them "God just told you 'No' Because he knows if you DO, you'll be like HIM. Don't you wanna be like HIM?? C'mon!"

[JohnDoe]

This might be controversial, but I believe that the fires of hell or the Lake of fire is reserved for some, like the Beast and the false prophet and those that follow them, but those that do not go on to Heaven, are just DEAD, dead in the Spirit, they have no everlasting life, no spiritual life after death.... they experience two deaths, the physical and the spiritual not just one death, that can be overcome...with Spiritual life.

[Mr. P]

I didn't claim you dissed 8Ball's post. If you want to ask a question about something I wrote, please as a courtesy, at least make sure I've written it.


To clarify -

8Ball brought up a VERY in-depth post about his Faith. YOUR FIRST REPLY after that was to mock the Christian God. You know you were mocking. I know you were mocking. Your innocent little "Wha?? I didn't do 'nothin'" attitude now is juvenile.

You're hopeless.

[GW in Ohio]

I think that, after death, some people are not able to let go of this life and move on to the next one. Some are obsessed with people or things or experiences, some are filled with hate or feelings of revenge, etc.

I think some of these people linger here on this earthly plane and they are what people perceive as ghosts. I think it's possible these people don't realize they are dead, and they go on, re-enacting things they were unable to let go of.

[Mr. P]

This might be controversial, but I believe that the fires of hell or the Lake of fire is reserved for some, like the Beast and the false prophet and those that follow them, but those that do not go on to Heaven, are just DEAD, dead in the Spirit, they have no everlasting life, no spiritual life after death.... they experience two deaths, the physical and the spiritual not just one death, that can be overcome...with Spiritual life.

Ahhhh purgatory?

[JohnDoe]

Ahhhh purgatory?

yes, I can be a flip flopper on this subject and I agree that there is a passage in the bible that mentions being clensed with fire...I can't remember where I read it from, and also that the road to Heaven is narrow and that we are suppose to "dread the pains of hell", but I guess I am saying that hell is several places from what I have read in my own personal studies, just like there are many rooms in thy Father's House.... it is strange, the Bible describes the lake of fire, but it also describes those that are dead of the spirit, as though they are just dead, with no fire....which is painful enough because they will not move forward and come to see God....but I could be wrong and would need to do some scriptural research before staking my life on any of this.....!!!!! lol

basically, I am open for discussion on all of this and also reserve the right to change my mind, several times!!!! :D

[PostmodernProphet]

they did not know disobedience

again, they may not have known or foreseen the consequences, but they certainly were intelligent enough to know obedience versus disobedience......only one rule out there...."Don't do X".....they chose to do X......whether they were 'tricked' into it or misled about the consequences doesn't change the fact they knew they had been told not to do X......in fact the story starts out with the Serpent calling attention to it.....he began by asking Eve...."Did God tell you not to eat from a tree in the garden?"......

[darin]

You're hopeless.

And you're a bigot when it comes to people of faith. So what?

[Mr. P]

And you're a bigot when it comes to people of faith. So what?

:laugh2: right. :laugh2:

[Pale Rider]

Sure? Did I say otherwise?

You said...


because we don't get to decide where to go, I believe. When we die, our spirits instantaneously arrive at their destination. No journey to speak of.

And then I said...


I think the decisions we're making now absolutely are the determining factor in where we go after death, don't you?

So yeah, I did get the impression you believe we have no influence in where we go.

[Missileman]

You aren't keeping up. My point was that God didn't become angry until they lied to him about their action and attempted to lay blame elsewhere.


11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Where's the lie? They said exactly what happened.

[No1tovote4]

No - she was punished for disobeying - NOT for 'not admitting it.'

She used 'deceived' as an excuse because she 'believed' the serpent and disobeyed God.

However, God didn't get mad until she and Adam had both lied to him. My point is where the reaction came. I believe that the story is about taking responsibility for what you now 'know' to be wrong in a way you didn't before...

It is my interpretation of the actual reaction. Also reading the other books that were not included in the version the Catholic Priests put together gives an entirely different perspective, it adds to the story in quite an interesting way.

[No1tovote4]

11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Where's the lie? They said exactly what happened.

It was "her" fault, then the "serpent's" fault. Both had excuses for their action. Do you not see the point that I have stated from the beginning?

"She gave me of the tree! It's her fault!" "It was that serpent, I was deceived! It's not my fault!"

God's message was, "Yes, it is your fault, don't attempt to pass the buck."

Anyway, I'll have to admit that I read some of the books, such as "The Book of Adam and Eve" that were not included in the current text of the Bible and some of my opinion comes from them as well. They say it was repetitive and that was why it was removed, but much of the story is missed without it.

I've also read many of the Gospels that were not included in the current book and it gives another view.

I am also a Buddhist and this gets a bit tainted by that.

It is my opinion that God got far more angry over their attempt to pass the buck than he did of the actual violation. Had Adam and Eve actually fessed up their punishment would have been far less egregious. IMO.

I've always been more fascinated with verse 22 in that particular chapter you quote.

[darin]

However, God didn't get mad until she and Adam had both lied to him. My point is where the reaction came. I believe that the story is about taking responsibility for what you now 'know' to be wrong in a way you didn't before...

It is my interpretation of the actual reaction. Also reading the other books that were not included in the version the Catholic Priests put together gives an entirely different perspective, it adds to the story in quite an interesting way.

Get mad at them? I don't remember him getting 'mad' - He was setting them up - classic parenting.

He knew what they did - he wanted them to fess-up for their own good.

[No1tovote4]

Get mad at them? I don't remember him getting 'mad' - He was setting them up - classic parenting.

He knew what they did - he wanted them to fess-up for their own good.

Which is what I said.

He wanted them to fess up. He did not want them to pass the buck.

;)

Anyway, read "The Book of Adam and Eve". You will find it interesting at least.

[darin]

Which is what I said.

He wanted them to fess up. He did not want them to pass the buck.

;)

Anyway, read "The Book of Adam and Eve". You will find it interesting at least.


Right - but how they confessed is not relevant to what they did. That's what I'm tryin' to say :)

[Pale Rider]

Another ten page thread with no real proof that ghosts are real... or that they aren't. Interesting.

I think most people that tell themselves ghosts aren't real, WANT not to believe in them, but secretly do.

[typomaniac]

Another ten page thread with no real proof that ghosts are real... or that they aren't. Interesting.
Why so interesting? As far as I know, nobody in the world has come up with any "real proof" one way or the other. :dunno:

[eighballsidepocket]

Well, this is the religion part of the forum, so here goes. :)

From the New Testament, 2 Thessalonians, Chapter 2, versus 5 through 12.


5. Do you not remember that while I (Paul) was still with you, I was telling you these things?

6. And you know what restrains him (Anti Christ) now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

7. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he (Holy Spirit) who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

8. Then that lawless one ( Anti Christ) will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

9. that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, ( there's your ghosts, false miracles, UFO's.....all intended to move "one" 180 degrees away from Christ's life, and truth.)

10. and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

11. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, (ghosts, UFO's, false miracles, hauntings from the Deceiver)

12. in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
*******
Folks, it's just the beginning. It will get more evident or obvious.

Even Houdini's upper class/intellectual victorian relatives, friends and wife were so deluded and misguided with their constant seances that they thought would bring them communication with the dead illusionist/husband.

People have been given the Truth, but so many rejected Him 2,000 years ago, as they do even today. They say He is a great wise man, a great prophet, but divine? A big "Nope!". From God? A big "Nope!". Virgin born? A big, "Impossible!" Yet, a ghost or out of body experience is plausible...........?

Man trully is a "free agent". He has a will, he has a soul, as in mind/will/emotions. He is not forced to accept Christ, but in his/her folly of self delusions, delves into and considers foolish things as ghosts, UFO's, Alien abductions, etc... All of these phenomenas are not surprising to the well-read biblical Christian. It is the "folly" of God-rejecting mankind to find an alternative to life, minus the unchanging, and life-engendering Gospel that has survived myriads of years of recopying and recopying, without any change in it's intent, or content, as attested-to by the nearly 2,000 year old Dead Sea scrolls.

It isn't a matter of many not having the evidence. Let's be very honest and transparent here. It's a matter of man rejecting authority over his will, his life, his ultimate purpose of being, and his ultimate reason existing.

Yes, he is a free willed spirit, but he/man rejects or unappreciates the very author of his creation as he delves into all kinds of dead end searches of meaning, and purposefully avoiding the Truth, the Light and the Way, that has been placed before him so obviously, and so perfectly.

The Truth has become mankinds stumbling block, yet that stumbling block of man is the actual Cornerstone of man's possible eternal life of security, peace, and purpose.
********
Ghosts........and related phenomena.........to the unbibled, is an obvious choice/alternative. It is what the scripture terms the "wide, easy" road. Christ and God's scriptural truths are a "narrow" road, devoid of delusions, and deceptions.

The scriptures say that these ghost/ufo phenomenas will on increase. It is a sign that the world is being prepared for the advent of Satans "counter" to God's Truth (Christ) is at hand.

Remember again, as I've posted earlier. Those that have delved into Quija boards have ended up with extreme psychological handicaps of life, as well as demonic/mental oppression.

There are not any semi-friendly ghosts, and good ghosts. (The Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit is not the the before-mentioned category). They are all authored by Satan, and are deluding those that claim to be the most intellectual.

Interestingly, Christ emphatically mentioned that us earth living folks will, and cannot communicate with the dead, except in one unusual instance where King Saul went to a witch and got to see the deceased Samuel the prophet. Even that shocked the Witch of Endor, who knew that Samuel's alleged ghost was not a work of her, but God intervening to discipline King Saul for delving in witchcraft. In actuality, it wasn't a ghost, but Samuel himself that was alive and well, but used of God after his death in an unusual, temporary return to earth to give Saul a disciplinary lashing, for delving into the dark arts and not trusting in God's provisions.

It's interesting how the most intellectual, are "bafooned" by phenomena, that is leading them, as though there is a "ring" in their noses, away from the Light and Truth. God didn't create evil, or delusions. He allows man to enter into those realms as part of man's free will.

Satan cringes when man turns towards the True Light, of life, but just sits back in his easy-chair when self-deluded intellectual, overly brained, man looks everywhere for life to the exclusion of the obvious. The world and creation just scream from the mountain tops to the depths of the oceans that there is intelligent design. Man buries his braining, intellectual, cranium in the sands of rebellion to his own demise. :(
*******

[PostmodernProphet]

???....does a 'haunting' in and of itself, move us "away" from Christ?

[eighballsidepocket]

???....does a 'haunting' in and of itself, move us "away" from Christ?

If one is coming from a biblical/scriptural stance....emphatically, yes.

If one is not, it's just some fun, interesting, hobby, or interest, to watch on the History channel...etc...
*******
As I mentioned before, these phenomena are designed to mislead, if one or a group decide to follow, obsess or embrace these "things" as an avenue of enlightenment.

There is a spiritual world. Scripture confirms it, but it also emphatically warns humanity to be aware that 1/3 of the ministering angels of God also were cast out of heaven and are now termed "demons". They cast themselves as angels of light, yet are depraved as their master ( Satan). They presume to love humanity or are neutral or benevolent in appearance and guise, yet their ultimate, deluded, agenda is to mislead and direct mankind away from biblical truth into all kinds of other "hunts" and "drives" that lead to fruitlessness of life, and ignorance of truth, and wisdom from their Creator. Bottom line, they abhor anything that is to do with the biblical truth of Christ's life, mission on earth, and His ultimate standing in heaven.

Again, if this little dabbling is innocent, then why does it inevitably cause it's adherence to move away from or continue to stay away from, embracing Christ in total, as Lord and Savior of mankind?

Non unlike the Mormon burning bosom experience that is stressed by missionarys to those being proselytized, that often comes in the phenomena of a long departed Mormon relative being seen as an aparition or ghost to someone who has prayed the prayer of asking if Mormonism is the truth. Many a Mormon can tell you that they had a dream or saw what they believed to be an actual visual phenomena of a famous Mormon, or departed Mormon relative or friend, come to them and tell them that, "Mormonism is the truth".

Every visit at our door step by the young men in white dress shirts has been ended with, "Why don't you pray and ask God if Mormonism is the truth?". Scripture doesn't tell me to pray for truth. It says in scripture that Christ is the truth and the light. Faith comes by hearing and believing God's word, not by verifying my faith by sensory stimulus of visions, dreams, or physcial happenings. Not an aparition, or a message. All these things must be tested against scripture. Even the apostle Paul was not offended, but infact, commended the Bereans, that would immediately go to scripture to see if what Paul was teaching them was the truth. Lies, can't stand against scripture. Aparitions that lead or tell a different story than scripture cannot stand up against scripture.

Next time you have a special revelation in a dream or see or experience a "mind trip" that seems like reality, just ask in your mind or verbally say, "Is Jesus Christ the Son of God, and the Saviour of all mankind?". You'll be surprised at what happens. It will shock your socks off and bring you to reality. All of creation stands in subjection to Christ. His name and the truth of His identity in relationship to the Godhead can't not be tolerated by the harbingers of lies.

If one person who was experiencing their burning bosom of Mormonism just asked that ghost or apparition or dream, if Jesus was the Son of God, and the only first born of God, that apparition would have vanished or changed in it's benevolent nature in a flash. Guaranteed!

Instead of relying on biblical scripture to test all "spirits" and "phenomena" as coming from God or not, these folks believed that this must be the truth. Satan is an angel of "light"... "Light" as in, beautiful, truthful, believable, non-threatening.......etc...

The bible says that, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by or in the word of God.". Notice the big difference. So many systems of faith are based on phenomena, while Christianity, tells us that phenomena can be good, neutral, or bad, all in how you interpret it. If you want it to be good, you'll eliminate from your fore-thought any and all suspiciousness of your human intuition, because you want it to be true.

Faith isn't based on phenomena. It's based on sensible, plausible, fact. The bible is filled with that.

So the before mentioned verse basically is saying, "Base your sound judgement on scripture, not on razzle-dazzle, as the Angle of Light and his myriad of adherents (fallen angels) can and will deceive you if possible, but they can't stand up against scriptural truth.

Remember also that Satan knows the scriptures better than any human on earth, and can use scripture to further his agenda by taking it out of context, and also misinterpretting it.
*****
To rely on visions and dreams to confirm ones faith is to walk on thin ice. This is why we have the Benny Hinns and Bob Tiltons of the world misleading so many folks, and also neutralizing so many Christians into believing that God is their personal "Santa Claus" to prosperity.

They treat the Word of God as though it's magical. As though God must fullfill your wishes if you do A and B (Trinity Broadcasting Network). This is just another misinterpretation, and another "wide" easy road, that mankind desires, over obedience to God, and resting in His righteousness.
*****
It's one thing to find this phenomena of "ghosts" interesting, it's another to start considering it as a bonafide presentation of objective reality.
******
Remember, that Christ said in the bible, that those that have departed or died, can no longer be contacted by us, who are still living, earthbound humans. Just read Jesus's parable of Lazarus and the rich man. After dieing, the selfish, doomed, rich man wanted to warn his relatives that there is a "hell", but he could not. Jesus basically said, it is for each man/woman to make the right joice about their Creator, based on the overwhelming evidence of His existence through creation, and through His Son's life.

God is not nasty and exacting. He's patient, loving, holy, and righteous. It is up to mankind to come to terms with this fact/truth. Some will reject this and some will not.
******
As for folks perishing in other parts of the world, for lack of this Christian gospel, the scriptures specifically say that "for whom much is given, much is expected". Those who lack first-hand exposure to the bible, still fall under the Romans, Chapter 1, edict, that basically says that all of mankind is without excuse, as the Creator has placed in all of us, a desire an innate knowledge that God exists and that He is not revealed through worshipping carved birds, reptiles, animals, or through sadistic, works of bodily humiliation.

God doesn't desire penance from us. He desires "us". Why? That's a mystery, but in some ways His desire to have us come back into relationship with Him, also reveals to us His character. His, sacrificing His Son on the cross for our lives, or sakes, is also very revealing of His attributes/character.

Paul said God is "love". What more or how could He reveal more that He loved us, than by giving the most precious part of His life, namely Jesus, His son, as means to restore us to a relationship with Him?
*******
Do you really love mankind, enough to give up your most precious gift, to save a be-draggled, rebellious, species that originally you made in your image, and now it doesn't desire a relationship with you?

[typomaniac]

11. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, (ghosts, UFO's, false miracles, hauntings from the Deceiver)

12. in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
This is the deep fundamental flaw of Western religion.

If God truly loves His creations, why would he be so unkind as to purposely mislead them? And if He doesn't, why would he have bothered to create them in the first place, let alone send them any prophets or messiahs?

[eighballsidepocket]

This is the deep fundamental flaw of Western religion.

If God truly loves His creations, why would he be so unkind as to purposely mislead them? And if He doesn't, why would he have bothered to create them in the first place, let alone send them any prophets or messiahs?


If I understand your logic, the "clay" has the right to tell the "potter" or dictate the terms of life, being, existence, truth, etc....?

Also this "Western Religion" started in Northern Africa.

[PostmodernProphet]

If one is coming from a biblical/scriptural stance....emphatically, yes.

I would have to disagree....I come from a biblical/scriptural stance.....and the possibility of some observable phenomena relating to the dead would not make me think less of Christ's saving grace......

[PostmodernProphet]

purposely mislead them

???....people are well able to come the wrong conclusions without being led anywhere......

[PostmodernProphet]

Faith isn't based on phenomena.

exactly why the existence of phenomena should have no negative impact upon faith.....

[Missileman]

If one is coming from a biblical/scriptural stance....emphatically, yes.

If one is not, it's just some fun, interesting, hobby, or interest, to watch on the History channel...etc...
*******
As I mentioned before, these phenomena are designed to mislead, if one or a group decide to follow, obsess or embrace these "things" as an avenue of enlightenment.

There is a spiritual world. Scripture confirms it, but it also emphatically warns humanity to be aware that 1/3 of the ministering angels of God also were cast out of heaven and are now termed "demons". They cast themselves as angels of light, yet are depraved as their master ( Satan). They presume to love humanity or are neutral or benevolent in appearance and guise, yet their ultimate, deluded, agenda is to mislead and direct mankind away from biblical truth into all kinds of other "hunts" and "drives" that lead to fruitlessness of life, and ignorance of truth, and wisdom from their Creator. Bottom line, they abhor anything that is to do with the biblical truth of Christ's life, mission on earth, and His ultimate standing in heaven.

Again, if this little dabbling is innocent, then why does it inevitably cause it's adherence to move away from or continue to stay away from, embracing Christ in total, as Lord and Savior of mankind?

Non unlike the Mormon burning bosom experience that is stressed by missionarys to those being proselytized, that often comes in the phenomena of a long departed Mormon relative being seen as an aparition or ghost to someone who has prayed the prayer of asking if Mormonism is the truth. Many a Mormon can tell you that they had a dream or saw what they believed to be an actual visual phenomena of a famous Mormon, or departed Mormon relative or friend, come to them and tell them that, "Mormonism is the truth".

Every visit at our door step by the young men in white dress shirts has been ended with, "Why don't you pray and ask God if Mormonism is the truth?". Scripture doesn't tell me to pray for truth. It says in scripture that Christ is the truth and the light. Faith comes by hearing and believing God's word, not by verifying my faith by sensory stimulus of visions, dreams, or physcial happenings. Not an aparition, or a message. All these things must be tested against scripture. Even the apostle Paul was not offended commended the Bereans, that would immediately go to scripture to see if what Paul was teaching them was the truth. Lies, can't stand against scripture. Aparitions that lead or tell a different story than scripture can stand up against scripture.

Next time you have a special revelation in a dream or see or experience a "mind trip" that seems like reality, just ask in your mind or verbally say, "Is Jesus Christ the Son of God, and the Saviour or all mankind?". You'll be surprised at what happens. It will shock your socks off and bring you to reality. All of creation stands in subjection to Christ. His name and the truth of His identity can't not be tolerated by the harbingers of lies.

If one person who was experiencing their burning bosom of Mormonism just asked that ghost or apparition or dream, if Jesus was the Son of God, and the only first born of God, that apparition would have vanished or changed in it's benevolent nature in a flash. Guaranteed!

Instead of relying on biblical scripture to test all "spirits" and "phenomena" as coming from God or not, these folks believed that this must be the truth. Satan is an angel of "light"... "Light" as in, beautiful, truthful, believable, non-threatening.......etc...

The bible says that, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by or in the word of God.". Notice the big difference. So many systems of faith are based on phenomena, while Christianity, tells us that phenomena can be good, neutral, or bad, all in how you interpret it. If you want it to be good, you'll eliminate from your fore-thought any and all suspiciousness of your human intuition, because you want it to be true.

Faith isn't based on phenomena. It's based on sensible, plausible, fact. The bible is filled with that.

So the before mentioned verse basically is saying, "Base your sound judgement on scripture, not on razzle-dazzle, as the Angle of Light and his myriad of adherents (fallen angels) can and will deceive you if possible, but they can't stand up against scriptural truth.

Remember also that Satan knows the scriptures better than any human on earth, and can use scripture to further his agenda by taking it out of context, and also misinterpretting it.
*****
To rely on visions and dreams to confirm ones faith is to walk on thin ice. This why we have the Benny Hinns and Bob Tiltons of the world misleading so many folks, and also neutralizing so many Christians into believing that God is their personal "Santa Claus" to prosperity.

They treat the Word of God as though it's magical. As thought God must fullfill your wishes if you do A and B. This is just another misinterpretation, and another "wide" easy road, that mankind so easily wants over, obedience to God, and resting in His righteousness.
*****
It's one thing to find this phenomena of "ghosts" interesting, it's another to start considering it as a bonafide presentation of objective reality.
******

So, it's your contention that ghosts are real, they're just not really ghosts. Instead, they are demons sent to drive a wedge between you and God.

If this is true, then why do non-Christians see apparitions also? Why would the devil be wasting time and effort on souls already destined to hell?

[Pale Rider]

So, it's your contention that ghosts are real, they're just not really ghosts. Instead, they are demons sent to drive a wedge between you and God.

If this is true, then why do non-Christians see apparitions also? Why would the devil be wasting time and effort on souls already destined to hell?

Maybe the devil doesn't see it as a "waste of time." Maybe he thinks it's a good way to keep them unbelieving.

[eighballsidepocket]

So, it's your contention that ghosts are real, they're just not really ghosts. Instead, they are demons sent to drive a wedge between you and God.

If this is true, then why do non-Christians see apparitions also? Why would the devil be wasting time and effort on souls already destined to hell?

I think you already answered your own question, in a round about way.

All of us have sinned and fallen short. We are all destined to hell, but by the saving grace of God it doesn't have to happen to us.

Now the saving grace of God, involves human participation or human willingness to come to a place of contrite attitude and repentance, in respect to God's mercy/grace.

By the way, this "grace" is unmerited on our part. We are only responding to it, not earning it.

Many will not respond, and will go about their ways or lives and reject His grace as offered through His Son's life. God didn't create automatons, but beings of free-will, only they must choose wisely. :)

It surely isn't a waist of time for the Enemy of mankind and God, to keep any possible human beings misled. Remember this being is smart, but he is also deluded into thinking he will reign supreme one day. Anton Levey would concur.

[eighballsidepocket]

Maybe the devil doesn't see it as a "waste of time." Maybe he thinks it's a good way to keep them unbelieving.

Exactly!!!

[typomaniac]

If I understand your logic, the "clay" has the right to tell the "potter" or dictate the terms of life, being, existence, truth, etc....?

Yes. See below:


Galileo Galilei
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.


Also this "Western Religion" started in Northern Africa.It's called "Western" because it's the basis of most religions that are practiced in the Western world today.

[JohnDoe]

So, it's your contention that ghosts are real, they're just not really ghosts. Instead, they are demons sent to drive a wedge between you and God.

If this is true, then why do non-Christians see apparitions also? Why would the devil be wasting time and effort on souls already destined to hell?
Because no one is destined to hell until the day they die and CHRIST determines such imo.....some will return back to the Lord in the end of days when they are awakened.... others will choose to follow the Beast, underlying evil or deceitfulness, and not so much that God forced them to not know the truth, but He removes the Holy Spirit for a time, times and half a time....3.5 years, according to scripture, which is usually our helper in identifying evil or truth sort of a protecter.... well, that is the best way, I can put it.... One reason why we are taught to memorize our Bibles, because the Bible is the proverbial Armour of God, Jesus used Scripture in the garden when even He was tempted by the Devil....Who is working among us now, but not in full strength, until God removes the Holy Spirit as our protection for a short time, the tribulation period...and that will be the do or die time for many to accept the truth about Christ all over the world....but those that decide to follow the Beast, the Man of Lawlessness, the Man of Deceit, Abbadon, Appolyon....the man of War....will be cast in to the Lake of Fire with the Beast and the False Prophet....

So if the Devil is going after someone who we have prejudged as to their disposition of going to hell, more than likely, when all was said and done, their destiny was not to go to hell... He doesn't waste his time on those that follow him already.... so I've been told! hahahaha :D

[JohnDoe]

i need to correct something i just said in the above post, or clarify it...

i believe that God knows our destiny, because He knows all....BUT WE HUMANS do not know another human's destiny, until it is all said and done, and we meet them on the other side, or we don't, but only Jesus Christ is judge of such.

[eighballsidepocket]

Yes. See below:



It's called "Western" because it's the basis of most religions that are practiced in the Western world today.

Sadly, most intellects who lack bible understanding assume that God is looking for dupes and dummies who lack independent reasoning and wisdom. In fact God has endowed His Human creation with the greatest of mental abilities, and reasoning power, of all His creatures.

The New Testament is filled with page after page of writings of man's reasonings, versus God's reasoning, and evaluations of which are promoting the betterment of mankind, and also glorify the One who created this independent, reasoning creature called man.

"Western religion is a mishmash of so many belief systems nowadays if we are focusing on the U.S., especially. We have Scientologists who believe that the human race was seeded from the planet Nob, the Mormons believe that its possible for every good Mormon man to become an Adam of his own new planet, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus was merely the Archangel Michael.

New Age-ism has crept into this once predominantly biblically Christian country and replaces "sin" with "my bad or my mistake", "forgiveness" with "tolerance", "integrity" with "political correctness (P.C.), "Agape" love, with "sexual compatibility"....and it goes on and on.

Accountability is moot, without biblical truths. As we see in our present and near-past society, accountability has been replaced ever-so-more, with plea bargaining, bribery, insanity pleas.

Just check out the movie, "Number 23" with Jim Carrey.

It ends with a chilling but refreshing reminder of a man that has a choice to leave another in prison for a crime he has committed, and live with wife and son without any concerns for the future.

This guilty man/father/husband, considers suicide as an escape from what he's done, but decides that this is the wrong message to send to his son, as he is avoiding responsibility for his past crime. So he bravely turns himself in, believing that he is sending a message to his son, though he has committed a bad crime, he is willing to "own it". Also the father/husband is willing to not be with his family for many years until possible parole. In his conscience he will not let an innocent man be in prison for his crime.

Then the movie ends with a verse from the Old Testament Numbers 32:23...

23. "But if you will not do so ( obey the Lord), behold, you have sinned against the LORD, and be sure your sin will find you out.

Part of personal integrity is facing responsiblity, for our attitude that comes from deep inside our being.

The mouth is not a bad thing, but its what is emmitted from it that destroys, hurts, rejects, judges, condemns, and also hangs us in our own self-strung noose of guilt.

Sin is taboo, as it calls all mankind to personal accountability.

Our society wants to live in a guilt free, utopian, chocolate factory, where discipline, wisdom, truth, and accountability is sin, and being free to do anything, regardless of it's merit or consequences according to a skewed religion authored by a bible-free, and God-free mankind.

[Missileman]

Maybe the devil doesn't see it as a "waste of time." Maybe he thinks it's a good way to keep them unbelieving.

The religion of their father and father's father is apparently more than sufficient to accomplish that in most cases. I see no reason to believe that a Bhuddist or Hindu or Muslim would be less likely to convert if they believed they'd seen a ghost...makes no sense at all.

[Missileman]

Because no one is destined to hell until the day they die and CHRIST determines such imo.....some will return back to the Lord in the end of days when they are awakened.... others will choose to follow the Beast, underlying evil or deceitfulness, and not so much that God forced them to not know the truth, but He removes the Holy Spirit for a time, times and half a time....3.5 years, according to scripture, which is usually our helper in identifying evil or truth sort of a protecter.... well, that is the best way, I can put it.... One reason why we are taught to memorize our Bibles, because the Bible is the proverbial Armour of God, Jesus used Scripture in the garden when even He was tempted by the Devil....Who is working among us now, but not in full strength, until God removes the Holy Spirit as our protection for a short time, the tribulation period...and that will be the do or die time for many to accept the truth about Christ all over the world....but those that decide to follow the Beast, the Man of Lawlessness, the Man of Deceit, Abbadon, Appolyon....the man of War....will be cast in to the Lake of Fire with the Beast and the False Prophet....

So if the Devil is going after someone who we have prejudged as to their disposition of going to hell, more than likely, when all was said and done, their destiny was not to go to hell... He doesn't waste his time on those that follow him already.... so I've been told! hahahaha :D

I've seen it expressed many times that only those who believe in Christ can make it into heaven, that everyone else is doomed to hell. I assume that converting after death isn't an option...this leaves 60% of people at a minimum doomed to hell just because they weren't Christians, right?

[Pale Rider]

The religion of their father and father's father is apparently more than sufficient to accomplish that in most cases. I see no reason to believe that a Bhuddist or Hindu or Muslim would be less likely to convert if they believed they'd seen a ghost...makes no sense at all.

Just trying to think of an answer to a question that obviously can only be anwered by the devil.

[PostmodernProphet]

It's called "Western" because it's the basis of most religions that are practiced in the Western world today

time to bring that up to date, then.....the largest numbers of people attending Christian churches are in places like South Korea, Nigeria, and Brazil........

conversly, the most practiced 'religion' in the West is secular humanism.....

[PostmodernProphet]

this leaves 60% of people at a minimum doomed to hell just because they weren't Christians, right?

if they have chosen not to believe in God and heaven, it doesn't make much sense that they would get a key to the door, does it?

[typomaniac]

time to bring that up to date, then.....the largest numbers of people attending Christian churches are in places like South Korea, Nigeria, and Brazil........

conversly, the most practiced 'religion' in the West is secular humanism.....

That's one of the oddest claims I've heard in a while. Got any statistics to support it?

[Missileman]

time to bring that up to date, then.....the largest numbers of people attending Christian churches are in places like South Korea, Nigeria, and Brazil........

conversly, the most practiced 'religion' in the West is secular humanism.....

And exactly which God and holy text does that involve? Where are the churches? Who exactly are these secular humanists that are, according to you, a majority in the "west"?

[PostmodernProphet]

yeah.....


the ten biggest churches in the world are Korean

http://www.24-7prayer.com/ow/country.php?country_id=55


The church: Yoido Full Gospel Church, Yoido, Seoul, South Korea. This is the numero uno church in the world, if size is anything to go by, with over 800,000 members.


http://ship-of-fools.com/Mystery/2000/254Mystery.html


In the twentieth century, the Christian population in Africa exploded from an estimated eight or nine million in 1900 (8 to 9%) to some 335 million in 2000 (45%), marking a shift in the “center of gravity of Christianity” from the West to Latin America, parts of Asia and Africa.

http://chi.gospelcom.net/GLIMPSEF/Glimpses/glmps151.shtml


The broader context here is Africa's dramatic shift in recent decades to Christianity and Islam. During the 20th century, fully 40 percent of Africa's population moved from traditional religions to "different shades of Christianity," says Philip Jenkins, a history and religion professor at the University of Pennsylvania. It is, he adds, "the largest religious change that has ever occurred in history."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0126/p01s04-woaf.html


On June 15th, 2006, 3,000,000 believers paraded through Sao Paolo, Brazil in the world's largest "March for Jesus" (William Stearns).



No Christian was officially allowed to live in Nepal until 1960. Now there is a church in every one of the 75 districts of Nepal with estimates of over half a million believers (Operation World).


In 1900 Korea had no Protestant church and the country was deemed impossible to penetrate. Today Korea is 30% Christian with 7000 churches in Seoul alone and several of these churches have over 1,000,000 members (Vision 2020)


Every day, 20,000 Africans come to Christ. Africa was 3% Christian in 1900 and is now over 50% Christian (Vision 2020).


There are currently 60-80 million Christians in China with between 10,000-25,000 converts a day (Open Doors)

http://www.prayerfoundation.org/world_christian_growth_statistics.htm

had enough?.......

[PostmodernProphet]

And exactly which God and holy text does that involve? Where are the churches? Who exactly are these secular humanists that are, according to you, a majority in the "west"?


the god of self, the scripture of human desire, and the temple of home.......

[typomaniac]

yeah.....

http://www.24-7prayer.com/ow/country.php?country_id=55

http://ship-of-fools.com/Mystery/2000/254Mystery.html

http://chi.gospelcom.net/GLIMPSEF/Glimpses/glmps151.shtml

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0126/p01s04-woaf.html

http://www.prayerfoundation.org/world_christian_growth_statistics.htm

had enough?.......You answered only half my question.

I was a lot more interested to see statistics about the explosive growth of this neat new "secular humanism" phenomenon in North America.

[eighballsidepocket]

Actually, secular humanism covers some big territory.

It definitely is the anti-thesis of biblical Christianity when taken in total.

It is man-centered, and seems to summarize itself as the answer or the belief system that "life is centered around man".

I agree that whether folks know it overtly or covertly, it is displacing divine creation with Voltarian rationalization. It is displacing God with man at the helm and throne of all understanding, wisdom, and realization of truths both physical and invisible.

It also displaces biblical or empiracal truth with rationalizatioon that creates a "bed" of instability in maintaining society on a level of honesty, accountability, integrity, and mutual respect. Truth becomes relative, as euthanasia, and abortion become but minor inconveniences, and not ethical questions.

All things are questioned. As I can sadly remember during the Vietnam war era, baby boomers and college aged folks, questioned all authority; even down to the very basics of obeying traffic control lights and signs. It became absurd. If carried to it's ultimate goals, anarchy would result. At times anarchy did result on many liberal university campuses, where secular humanism was being propounded by professors in ever increasing doses.

Folks such as the Weather Underground were blowing-up PG&E electric substations in California. Enviro wackos were driving steel spikes into Georgia Pacific owned Redwood Forests in N. California, so that loggers, would shatter high powered chain saws when downing trees for lumber to build homes. Many loggers were maimed by this self-righteous acts of alleged good for humanity.

When man wants to govern his life at the expense of dumping God, he can develop a big intellectual head of pride, that actually diseases itself into pride with a capital "P". He becomes blinded to his self centeredness, and takes actions that disregard others as he, secular man, is a god with little "g" unto himself. His passion is not unlike the Marxian approach of "The end justifies the means.". Life is expendable, as the cause justifies the damage done to promote and achieve it. Hypocritically, he will expend so much energy to save an endangered Kangaroo mouse, but will flippantly terminate, euthanize or abort both unborn and aged human life without a twinkling of conscience.

Christianity, comes to "logger heads" with humanism, as it dethrones man from the helm of his life, and replaces that inner throne in man's sole (mind/will/emotions) with Christ, via the Holy Spirit at the time of true bonafide conversion or salvation via repentance before God.

From the time of the first act of rebellion in the garden, man has been told that he will die if he disobeys, and he does. Not only does man die a future physical death at roughly "3 score and 10", but his race has also died in the past and present, spiritually, to communion or relationship, with his Maker. Man chose to tree of the knowledge of good and evil over the fruit of the Tree of Life. That knowledge tree is not unlike the "Law" that man lives by when he interprets relationship with his maker as an act or work of penance or obedience. Man chose the tree that led him down the path of "works" to be accepted by God. Rather than picking fruit from the tree of "life" he chose to know good and bad as his measure of identity, selfworth, and philosophy of life as an earthbound creature.

God doesn't need our works, He desires us, in close relationship. God doesn't need our Cadillac CVT, as he owns a thousand cattle on a thousand hills metaphorically. I.E. His riches are unfathomable.

Isaiah even said, "It isn't burnt offerings, that I desire, it is you, my people that I desire.". Man says, "No, No, No, I must prove myself through what I do to receive your "atta boy/girl". God says, just accept me for who I am and return into the fold. This is not unlike the Prodigal. He had nothing to offer his father in whom he had squandered all his inheritance, yet the father welcomed him bac because.................................The son's attitude was not "me, me, me" or self centered around his own wants as he earlier left home, but was now an emptied-out soul that fell on his dad's mercy. This young man was willing to come home and even be servant, and not be a son.. Now that's humility, and a real repentant heart. What did the father do? He accepted him back with open arms and celebration. "My son was once lost, but now he is found!".

God has more respect for that one we call trailer trash or that red neck that has given his or her's life to Christ and His Lordship of their life living in the much maligned "bible belt", than all the accomplishments of a "goodie two shoes" man/woman who lives by sweet and good works to endear God to him or herself. Finding a cure for Cancer doesn't earn points with God........Man sees works as identity, God see's relationship as identy.

Identity is the key. Where do you find your identity of being and life? Just remember the movie, "Anger Management". The first question asked of that poor fellow in group anger therapy, was, "Who are you?". This poor fellow went on and on about his job title, his good merit as a person, etc.., yet the therapist, said again, "Who are you?". The young man couldn't answer. Finally, he realized that it wasn't what he did that made him what he was. It was deeper yet so simplistic. His perception of his personal identity as a person was skewed and based on accomplishments and not who he, himself was. He learned to appreciate himself. When God makes us, he doens't error. He is also satisfied with the product He made. Now He wants that product/creature to appreciate itself so that it no longer projects it's skewed self perception on others. Yes, we are flawed by sin and a fallen nature, yet Christ came to throw out that life saver to us to exchange that fallen life for a new cleansed, and justified life through His atoning blood.

That's the same thing God is doing in all of us to come face the objective reality of who we are and who He is. Where is your identity. Is it based on your income, title, fathering, being a good spouse, respect in the community, material possessions, handsome or beautiful spouse, or angelic children............? All of these are "things" not of any substance. "Things" aren't us. We are beings with innate personalities, gifts, abilities, and we dream, dreams, hope for things, desire peace, security, and relational love. Our true identity is based on God's or our Creator's objective evaluation of us. If we live in defiance of God, then we have reason to be embittered and desire avoidance of Him. If we live in acceptance of His Son's work on the Cross for our behalf, to restore us to a right relationship with God, then we have reason to be joyful, at peace, and vessels freed to give back that grace to others who don't know or understand this greatest of gifts.

We were designed not only to accept and need love, but to give it back as well. In fact we were designed by God to give back to those that have sad, vacuous holes in their hearts and never have known real love; the Agape type that sticks for an eternity; the love that is of committment comprising a lifetime and isn't judgemental, and see's others on the same plain as oneself.

Why don't we love our neighbor or enemy as ourselves. First of all, you can't love another unless we appreciate or love ourselves in a healthy self-love. This healthy self-love is a love of ourselves that comprises a thankfulness to our maker for giving us breath, health, eyesight, hearing, spouses, jobs, a sound mind, reasoning, salvation, and on and on.

The world see's self love as the end to all goals, and not the byproduct of a healthy understanding of self-worth. Just drive the Freeways of the great metropolitan ares of the U.S.. Self cuts in and out of traffic at the expense of other's safety. Self abhors authority as a "crimp" in one's lifestyle. It is trully ugly when revealed. Self, doesn't take responsibility of actions.

God gives us a healthy self-worth, not a self-loathing as so many Christians get caught up in. God doesn't want Christians to force themselves into humility and humbleness based on a skewed self diagnoses that they are perpetually living in a Romans 3:23 existence. Yes all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, yet the Christian has been lifted out of darkness and spiritual death through Christ's ressurrected life. Now we can hold our heads up and be pleased with ourselves because God is well pleased with us, and not grow big fat, prideful heads. We are happy with ourselves because we have been accepted by no personal merit. This should give us a healthy humility and humbleness, that allows us to hold our heads up high, yet know without a doubt that all we have, we didn't earn, but were gifted by a loving eternal Father.
*******

[Missileman]

the god of self, the scripture of human desire, and the temple of home.......

You forgot to explain who it is that makes up this "majority". Surely, a person can't be a Christian and a secular humanist at the same time? Or then again, since secular humanism isn't really a religion, maybe they can be.

[Missileman]

if they have chosen not to believe in God and heaven, it doesn't make much sense that they would get a key to the door, does it?

If they've already locked themselves out, it doesn't make much sense that the devil would try to lead them away from the door, does it?

[PostmodernProphet]

I was a lot more interested to see statistics about the explosive growth of this neat new "secular humanism" phenomenon in North America

you need proof that secular humanism is increasing in the West? :laugh2:

should I prove that the sky is blue, as well?

[PostmodernProphet]

In 2001, more than 29.4 million Americans said they had no religion - more than double the number in 1990, and more than Methodists, Lutherans and Episcopalians all added up - according to the American Religious Identification Survey 2001 (ARIS).

People with no religion now account for 14% of the nation, up from 8% in 1990 when The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, authors of the ARIS, conducted its first survey of religion in 1990.

Today the range stretches from 3% with no religion in North Dakota to 25% in Washington State. For them, Sundays are just another Saturday.

(DOWNLOAD THE FULL 46 PAGE ARIS REPORT HERE
The City University of New York's American Religious Survey -Adobe Acrobat pdf format)



http://www.hollywoodjesus.com/comments/david/2004/11/major-decline-in-church-attendance.html

http://php.scripts.psu.edu/dept/iit/hbg/philanthropy/Images/BlueSkyLarge.jpg

[typomaniac]

Is having no religion the same thing as being a secular humanist?

[Missileman]

http://www.hollywoodjesus.com/comments/david/2004/11/major-decline-in-church-attendance.html

http://php.scripts.psu.edu/dept/iit/hbg/philanthropy/Images/BlueSkyLarge.jpg

14% is a far cry from the 70% of the Americans who claim a denomination of Christianity as their religion. You also failed to show that this 14% are practicing human secularism as opposed to no religion.

[PostmodernProphet]

Is having no religion the same thing as being a secular humanist?

actually no....being a secular humanist is having a religion without admitting it.....

[PostmodernProphet]

70% of the Americans who claim a denomination of Christianity as their religion

a steadily declining number, compared to the rapidly increasing numbers places other than the West.....face it, I proved my point

one of my links spoke of churches in Seoul with more than 800,000 members.....we aren't talking denominations here, we are talking congregations.....are you going to pretend you can find an American Christian church that comes anywhere close to that?........

[Missileman]

a steadily declining number, compared to the rapidly increasing numbers places other than the West.....face it, I proved my point

one of my links spoke of churches in Seoul with more than 800,000 members.....we aren't talking denominations here, we are talking congregations.....are you going to pretend you can find an American Christian church that comes anywhere close to that?........

You have yet to prove that secular humanism is the most practiced religion in the west...not even close so far.

[PostmodernProphet]

Belief.net/Newsweek survey in 2005 found that only 20% of Americans attend church services on a regular basis....your 70% figure includes people who remember their parents used to attend that church on the corner but can't remember the name of it......

[PostmodernProphet]

You have yet to prove that secular humanism is the most practiced religion in the west...not even close so far.


just watch the nightly news.....top stories are which actresses are on drugs, which actors tried suicide.....fixation on pop culture, shallowness, self-satisfaction......

[Missileman]

just watch the nightly news.....top stories are which actresses are on drugs, which actors tried suicide.....fixation on pop culture, shallowness, self-satisfaction......

So what? It doesn't alter the error of your assertion.

[Missileman]

Belief.net/Newsweek survey in 2005 found that only 20% of Americans attend church services on a regular basis....your 70% figure includes people who remember their parents used to attend that church on the corner but can't remember the name of it......

Is it not enough that they identify themselves as Christian, beileve in Christ and God, and try to live decent lives? Have you been appointed as the judge of who is and isn't a Christian? Do you REALLY have to attend a church to be a Christian?

Always makes me laugh...the thumpers will throw out that 70% figure when they try to justify making all of us live by their rules, but they'll abandon the figure in a heartbeat if it doesn't fit a stupid argument.

[PostmodernProphet]

Is it not enough that they identify themselves as Christian
no....

beileve in Christ and God
yes...

and try to live decent lives
no....

Have you been appointed as the judge of who is and isn't a Christian?
apparently you already have the job....

when they try to justify making all of us live by their rules
odd, I thought legalized abortion and no prayer and excluding God from all aspects of life were YOUR rules....you seem to have to problem in making us live by them......

[typomaniac]

Have you been appointed as the judge of who is and isn't a Christian?apparently you already have the job...
See my signature.

[Missileman]

no....

yes...

no....

Those parameters weren't connected with an "or" so it appears that the answer is a collective "yes".



apparently you already have the job....

Cool! Get the hell out of my chair and office.


odd, I thought legalized abortion and no prayer and excluding God from all aspects of life were YOUR rules....you seem to have to problem in making us live by them......

They're not MY rules, they're U.S. law. I'M hardly in a position of making YOU live by them. If you don't like the laws, get them changed, if you can. If you can't get them changed, you're left with three choices...live by them, break them, or find some place else to live.

[PostmodernProphet]

Those parameters weren't connected with an "or"

I am not responsible for your errors....


so it appears that the answer is a collective "yes"

no....


Get the hell out of my chair and office.


wasn't even in the same room......


If you don't like the laws, get them changed, if you can.

/e chuckles.....which is exactly what I am trying to do.....which you categorized as trying to impose myself on you.....


If you can't get them changed, you're left with three choices...live by them, break them, or find some place else to live.


or....try again in the next election cycle.......