Liberty over Democacy EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

[darin]

This girl is inspiring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1quEZkTJbhc

[Gunny]

Interesting. Of course I will think this over and tell you why she is wrong :)

[darin]

if you really think she is wrong I'd wonder why you joined the marines?

[Kathianne]

My connection won't let me play videos, but I will say there were good reasons that direct democracy was set aside in favor of a federated republic. Yep, I favor the electoral college too! ;)

[darin]

Said another way...


Would you prefer to live in a country that has:

(1) The rule of law with an honest civil service, strong protection of private property and minority rights, free trade, free markets, very low taxes, and full freedom of the speech, press and religion, but not a democracy?

(2) Democracy and a corrupt court and civil service, many restrictions on economic freedom, including very high taxes, with limited rights for minority religions, peoples and speech?

The first example describes Hong Kong under the British, which had full civil liberties, little corruption and the world’s freest economy. The Chinese took over Hong Kong in 1997 and have allowed it to continue as the freest economy in the world. As a result of the British being benevolent dictators and the Chinese largely continuing economic noninterference, with a number of restrictions on freedom of speech and the press, Hong Kong has achieved a per capita income close to that of the United States and higher than almost all democracies.

Many mistakenly believe democracy means liberty, but a quick review of world democracies show that is not true. Almost all democracies restrict economic liberties more than necessary. Many have corrupt court and civil service systems, inhibit women’s rights, constrain press freedom and do not protect minority rights and views. Iran, though a very restrictive theocracy, calls itself a democracy and holds elections.

The American Founding Fathers were concerned with liberty, so they set up a Republic to protect individual liberties from the passions of the majority at the moment. They worried about the excesses of democracy.

James Madison, the primary Framer of the U.S. Constitution, noted: “Democracies have been spectacles of turbulence and conflict.” His views were shared by the other Founders. That is why the U.S. Constitution was designed to restrict a democratic majority from limiting freedom of speech, press, religion and so forth. It is a document of liberty, not of democracy.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/feb/4/20060204-103048-1254r/

[Gunny]

if you really think she is wrong I'd wonder why you joined the marines?I'd wonder what the Marines have to do with it .... As a stand-alone argument, you know as well as I the military is anything but a democracy and personal liberties are restricted more than in the civilian world.

When you speak of personal beliefs, I, like anyone else, in a completely self-serving, self-centered and selfish move would also choose personal liberty over any other form of existence.

Now let's get real. She compares "liberty" to "democracy". A strawman argument. Where does it come from? Anyone seen any true democracies laying around to compare liberty to? We don't live in a democracy. And even though she took a different stance I beat me to it, we don't in reality live even in a representative republic as our government is sold.

Reality is: our supposed representatives that on paper are supposed to represent we, the people, represent themselves and a political party. The only difference between our government in reality and a trade union is the name.

In a true democracy, the majority rules. The reality we live in is the minority rules. Our laws and judiciary cater to the whims of the minority at the expense of the majority.

In both cases, out government is an aberration of either word; which, begs the question of what exactly "liberty" is being compared to in real life.

Then there is personal liberty itself. What personal liberties do we actually have? Seems to me just about everything we do or want to has rules with penalties that threaten the loss of liberty. There is NOTHING the US government cannot take away from you to include the delusion of liberty. One conforms or one is forced to, or separated and isolated from society (prison/jail).

I quit believing in Santa Claus a LONG time ago. The Easter Bunny is going to show when I got to the store and spend what the government allows me to keep of my pay on a big chocolate bunny. There's just no reality here.

[darin]

I'd wonder what the Marines have to do with it .... As a stand-alone argument, you know as well as I the military is anything but a democracy and personal liberties are restricted more than in the civilian world.

When you speak of personal beliefs, I, like anyone else, in a completely self-serving, self-centered and selfish move would also choose personal liberty over any other form of existence.



The marines have to do with it because you pledged to support and defend the Constitution - which


It is a document of liberty, not of democracy.

I didn't speak of personal beliefs.



Now let's get real. She compares "liberty" to "democracy". A strawman argument. Where does it come from? Anyone seen any true democracies laying around to compare liberty to? We don't live in a democracy. And even though she took a different stance I beat me to it, we don't in reality live even in a representative republic as our government is sold.

What's wrong with comparing them? And she's not arguing anything - she's highlighting how Democracy can control, forbid, curtail and destroy Liberty. She is not making the argument about any 'true democracies'; she's talking about 'Democracy'. I think the point of the video is to help people think. ;)


Reality is: our supposed representatives that on paper are supposed to represent we, the people, represent themselves and a political party. The only difference between our government in reality and a trade union is the name.

In a true democracy, the majority rules. The reality we live in is the minority rules. Our laws and judiciary cater to the whims of the minority at the expense of the majority.

In both cases, out government is an aberration of either word; which, begs the question of what exactly "liberty" is being compared to in real life.

Then there is personal liberty itself. What personal liberties do we actually have? Seems to me just about everything we do or want to has rules with penalties that threaten the loss of liberty. There is NOTHING the US government cannot take away from you to include the delusion of liberty. One conforms or one is forced to, or separated and isolated from society (prison/jail).

I quit believing in Santa Claus a LONG time ago. The Easter Bunny is going to show when I got to the store and spend what the government allows me to keep of my pay on a big chocolate bunny. There's just no reality here.

Those things are other topics - and I don't have any issue with your personal beliefs, since you brought them up.

[Gunny]

The marines have to do with it because you pledged to support and defend the Constitution - which



I didn't speak of personal beliefs.



What's wrong with comparing them? And she's not arguing anything - she's highlighting how Democracy can control, forbid, curtail and destroy Liberty. She is not making the argument about any 'true democracies'; she's talking about 'Democracy'. I think the point of the video is to help people think. ;)



Those things are other topics - and I don't have any issue with your personal beliefs, since you brought them up.I pledged to support and defend the Constitution. I did not pledge to defend and support some Twilight Zone version of it. This is a discussion of ideals. I still support the ideals in the Constitution. I don't support the twisted way it is used.

When personal liberty becomes anarchy it can destroy society. No society, no Constitution. No country that claims to offer personal liberty.

If she's not making an argument she's wasting oxygen. Looks like an argument to me. It has a serious flaw. That's my point.

[darin]

I pledged to support and defend the Constitution. I did not pledge to defend and support some Twilight Zone version of it. This is a discussion of ideals. I still support the ideals in the Constitution. I don't support the twisted way it is used.

When personal liberty becomes anarchy it can destroy society. No society, no Constitution. No country that claims to offer personal liberty.

If she's not making an argument she's wasting oxygen. Looks like an argument to me. It has a serious flaw. That's my point.

Calling it a document of democracy IS a twilight zone version of it.

When Democracy rules in entirety, it is death. She's making a great discussion point - as is the article I linked to. I think you are getting stuck on a few words and missing the point of her video and the article I linked to.

[Gunny]

Calling it a document of democracy IS a twilight zone version of it.

When Democracy rules in entirety, it is death. She's making a great discussion point - as is the article I linked to. I think you are getting stuck on a few words and missing the point of her video and the article I linked to.And I'm making a counterpoint. First, as previously stated, the US is not a democracy and never has been. It is supposed to be a representative Republic; which, it is an aberration of. So I do not call the Constitution a "document of democracy". You're making leaps that aren't there. Swearing to uphold and defend the Constitution of the US is not swearing to uphold democracy.

Second, strict "liberty" is anarchy and leads to the same death a democracy would just by other means. "Your Rights end where mine begin". The result: constant conflict and there is ALWAYS a loser. So the biggest thug gets what he wants at the expense of everyone else and without law, is not held accountable for it.

[darin]

And I'm making a counterpoint. First, as previously stated, the US is not a democracy and never has been. It is supposed to be a representative Republic; which, it is an aberration of. So I do not call the Constitution a "document of democracy". You're making leaps that aren't there. Swearing to uphold and defend the Constitution of the US is not swearing to uphold democracy.

Second, strict "liberty" is anarchy and leads to the same death a democracy would just by other means. "Your Rights end where mine begin". The result: constant conflict and there is ALWAYS a loser. So the biggest thug gets what he wants at the expense of everyone else and without law, is not held accountable for it.

But you are making counter-points over points she never made. Your last sentence in the first paragraph shows you absolutely agree with the woman in the vid and the article. That's the confusion. You say you disagree but you make comments that you degree. #confusing

[Gunny]

But you are making counter-points over points she never made. Your last sentence in the first paragraph shows you absolutely agree with the woman in the vid and the article. That's the confusion. You say you disagree but you make comments that you degree. #confusingIncorrect. I am countering her argument with points to the topic she has left out. It's called reality. And I DID differentiate between the two: dream vs reality.

[Elessar]

Spot On!

The U.S. of A is a Democratic Republic, and not a democracy.

You see so many countries declaring themselves " The Democratic Republic of ...North Korea (for example)";
The 'Democratic' claims of these:

Global use of the term Many countries that use the term "democratic republic" in their official names (such as Algeria,[9] East Congo,[10] Ethiopia,[11] North Korea,[12] Laos,[13] and Nepal[13]) are identified as undemocratic "hybrid regimes" by the Democracy Index[14] and "not free" by the U.S.-based, U.S.-government-funded non-governmental organization, Freedom House.[15] In addition, East Germany was also officially known as the German Democratic Republic, but, like the Somali Democratic Republic[16] and People's Democratic Republic of Ethiopia,[17] was controlled by a bureaucratic regime espousing communism.

[Black Diamond]

East Germany is my favorite.

[darin]

Incorrect. I am countering her argument with points to the topic she has left out. It's called reality. And I DID differentiate between the two: dream vs reality.

So you are countering the things she said with things she didn't say. Okay then.