My daughter-in-law got thrown out of church!?

[mundame]

We are puzzled and dismayed about this religious issue -- maybe someone can explain it.

My daughter-in-law visited her brother and his family and offered to take the little niece to Sunday School. They aren't religious but thought she would enjoy it (and she had a great time, fortunately, not knowing of the fireworks in the sanctuary).

This was a Baptist church. During the sermon, my DIL started waving her arm in praise. My own history is Methodist and we never did that but daughter and DIL have long gone to the sort of churches that meet in movie theaters or store fronts and they do. It's not wild behavior: just a sort of ritualized limp waving, as I've seen it.

The minister stopped abruptly and said right in the congregation for her to stop doing that: they don't wave arms in this church! She stopped and said she was sorry, but then got mad and rethought it and said no one could tell her how she could or couldn't praise Jesus, and left the sanctuary.

Well, darn. We always thought Baptists were............looser, more enthusiastic maybe, than that. This sounds downright Episcopal, rigid. No one was rolling around or shrieking in tongues, after all --- both of which I've seen or heard of, in days of yore.

What do you all think of this? She posted the story on Facebook, and her friends said she ought to come to their churches.

[Abbey Marie]

I'm kind of shocked that the Pastor did this. I currently attend a Baptist church, where some raise our arms in worship; most don't. No one would ever ask someone to stop. Way to turn your DIL off to going to church.

Our previous church of many, many years was the theater/storefront non-denominational type you've described. We all worshipped very expressively. It's not ritualized or limp, though.
I loved it there.

[darin]

I would wager, based on the evidence, that pastor doesn't know God. What the pastor did was NOT love. The pastor's actions were evidence of the opposite of love.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I have no idea at all what the problem would be with raising ones arm in praise to the Lord.

I think the problem is with the so called preacher.

[Gunny]

From the mouth of the Baptist ... there are different Baptist churches and you have to go with the flow depending on which one you go to. Some of it is regional, definitely racial, the North isn't the South and the West isn't the East. The city is not the country. People just refuse to accept regional and cultural divide in this country.

If you started waving your arms in the church I was raised in you would probably have the entire congregation staring at you. Old-school Baptists are extremely conservative. It isn't that they "don't know God" darin , it's that they know Him differently than you. Those people are the salt of the Earth and would give you the shirts off their backs.

In turn, I've been to one of thse charismatic, hippy, rock-n-roll churches that calls itself Baptist where they sway and sing to the band half the sermon and I was WAY out of place. Everybody running around in jeans and flip flops -- not my cup of tea. And try going to a black Baptist Church. Or a by God actual Southern Baptist Church. Southern Baptists are actually a separate church from y'all "regular" Baptists. And go to one of these small, country, Southern Baptist churches where everyone has known everyone else for a few generations like I grew up in. You'll get wide-eyed stared at like a rapper in a country bar :laugh:.

My advice is if you dont like it, don't go. Freedom of worship means you can pick whichever church suits your fancy. But when in Rome ....

[Kathianne]

From the mouth of the Baptist ... there are different Baptist churches and you have to go with the flow depending on which one you go to. Some of it is regional, definitely racial, the North isn't the South and the West isn't the East. The city is not the country. People just refuse to accept regional and cultural divide in this country.

If you started waving your arms in the church I was raised in you would probably have the entire congregation staring at you. Old-school Baptists are extremely conservative. It isn't that they "don't know God" darin , it's that they know Him differently than you. Those people are the salt of the Earth and would give you the shirts off their backs.

In turn, I've been to one of thse charismatic, hippy, rock-n-roll churches that calls itself Baptist where they sway and sing to the band half the sermon and I was WAY out of place. Everybody running around in jeans and flip flops -- not my cup of tea. And try going to a black Baptist Church. Or a by God actual Southern Baptist Church. Southern Baptists are actually a separate church from y'all "regular" Baptists. And go to one of these small, country, Southern Baptist churches where everyone has known everyone else for a few generations like I grew up in. You'll get wide-eyed stared at like a rapper in a country bar :laugh:.

My advice is if you dont like it, don't go. Freedom of worship means you can pick whichever church suits your fancy. But when in Rome ....

That's pretty much my take, though I'm not Baptist. Different churches have different mores, it comes down to what is comfortable for the congregation.

Unless the message in not aligned with God's Word, to me one looks for where one finds it most conducive to their relationship with God.))

[darin]

It isn't that they "don't know God" darin , it's that they know Him differently than you.

....

No. it's that they don't know God. there is no wrong way to know God. God is LOVE. When people act outside of Love they are giving the symptom they dont know love - ergo, don't know God.

[gabosaurus]

I can see this happening. My in-laws go to a very proper Baptist church. Everyone dresses up, listens to the preaching and sings hymns. On the other side of the spectrum, my family attends a non-denominational church where you come as you are. The church has a band and a choir. When the Holy Spirit moves you, it is OK to stand, dance and yell "Amen!" This is why there are different faiths for different people.

[Gunny]

No. it's that they don't know God. there is no wrong way to know God. God is LOVE. When people act outside of Love they are giving the symptom they dont know love - ergo, don't know God.I see your point, but disagree. People "know God" as they are taught to. "Knowing God" and conforming to accepted norms are two separate things; although, interwoven.

I was taught you dress up in dress clothes (your finest rainments) to go into the Lord's House. Others see it differently. God is love, but also is "all things to all people".

As opposed to the thread title, the woman was not denied a seat in a house of worship. She was simply instructed on how to conduct herself. They don't allow food and drinks in most churches either. Slamming a church for having rules of conduct is going a bit far. We follow rules of conduct the second we step outside our doors, and have to follow some even INSIDE our own walls. It's not a stretch in a society based on rules, and a religion based on rules, that there are rules.

If you don't like a church, go somewhere else. If you are a guest, it is merely displaying one's manners to observe their rules, not bring your own.

[Black Diamond]

I see your point, but disagree. People "know God" as they are taught to. "Knowing God" and conforming to accepted norms are two separate things; although, interwoven.

I was taught you dress up in dress clothes (your finest rainments) to go into the Lord's House. Others see it differently. God is love, but also is "all things to all people".

As opposed to the thread title, the woman was not denied a seat in a house of worship. She was simply instructed on how to conduct herself. They don't allow food and drinks in most churches either. Slamming a church for having rules of conduct is going a bit far. We follow rules of conduct the second we step outside our doors, and have to follow some even INSIDE our own walls. It's not a stretch in a society based on rules, and a religion based on rules, that there are rules.

If you don't like a church, go somewhere else. If you are a guest, it is merely displaying one's manners to observe their rules, not bring your own.
Did anyone ever give a message in tongues in your church?

[Gunny]

Did anyone ever give a message in tongues in your church?Don't believe in it. I can't imagine what the biddy committee would do if someone did. Probably start fanning themselves and/or faint :laugh:

[Abbey Marie]

No. it's that they don't know God. there is no wrong way to know God. God is LOVE. When people act outside of Love they are giving the symptom they dont know love - ergo, don't know God.

I agree, D. That pastor should have been so happy to see that his church's music moved someone to praise God so deeply. As I mentioned, my current (Baptist) church has some folks that do; most don't. I would be shocked if our pastor told anyone to stop. That is not love, it is judgment, and faith in a straight jacket. And this is a Baptist church in the mid-Atlantic. No hippies here.

The pastor in the OP would do well to remember that David, the "man after God's own heart", danced in worship and joy.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I think a person's relationship with God is a personal one, and you shouldn't be "taught" one way or another on how to express that, or not.

I believe I've been shown a miracle by the Lord because of deep, heart felt prayer, but yet I don't go to church at all. I think God is all around us, all the time, and frankly find it odd that they want you to PAY UP every time you go to church. I don't see heaven as something you have to BUY your way into. I think the Lord knows what's IN YOUR HEART, and that's whats important.

So if you're uncomfortable or feel insulted in a church, find a different one if going to church is important to you, otherwise just don't go. There's nothing wrong with worshiping on your own, alone, in your own way. God knows who and what you are.

[Gunny]

I agree, D. That pastor should have been so happy to see that his church's music moved someone to praise God so deeply. As I mentioned, my current (Baptist) church has some folks that do; most don't. I would be shocked if our pastor told anyone to stop. That is not love, it is judgment, and faith in a straight jacket. And this is a Baptist church in the mid-Atlantic. No hippies here.

The pastor in the OP would do well to remember that David, the "man after God's own heart", danced in worship and joy.Seems to me y'all are being judgmental of that pastor/church. Goes both ways :whistling2:

The congregation decides what is acceptable and not. I've never seen a visitor treated that way, but if it is determined that one person's behavior is disrupting the service for all, then I take no issue with that person being asked to comply. That's just common courtesy and that is all the issue amounts to.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Seems to me y'all are being judgmental of that pastor/church. Goes both ways :whistling2:

The congregation decides what is acceptable and not. I've never seen a visitor treated that way, but if it is determined that one person's behavior is disrupting the service for all, then I take no issue with that person being asked to comply. That's just common courtesy and that is all the issue amounts to.
I agree with that bro, but for crying out loud, just raising your arm? Isn't halting the sermon just to excoriate that person a little extreme just for raising your arm? Seems to me it is. I'd have stood up and walked out without being asked to leave, and probably left a few choice words for the preacher on the way out. I'm always kinda skeptical of preachers anyway. It always appears to me that they preach their own interpretation of the Bible, and what they preach they may not live, which makes them a damn hypocrite. Just my two cents.

The Bible says that if you engage in proselytizing to others as though you know the word of God, but then not adhere to your own words, you will be judged more harshly in heaven than someone who didn't.

[jimnyc]

Wow, that's crazy. Tossed from church? Unless breaking a law, being extremely disruptive or similar, I can't imagine a good church doing that. I certainly wouldn't return. :(

When I was much much younger, we used to go almost weekly to a catholic church in Forked River, NJ, where my grandparents live. My grandmother never learned to drive, so when my grandfather died, we very often would visit and take her to church.

Well, my grandmother was friendly with the folks that all worked there and what not, and as a result they kinda knew our family. So when my Dad divorced, and then took his 4 kids to church, apparently the priest thought it appropriate to kind of embarrass my father with his sermon, even if not called out by name.

I was very young, so I don't remember, I was likely busy watching the clock, or reading on my own through the various books. :)

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Well, my grandmother was friendly with the folks that all worked there and what not, and as a result they kinda knew our family. So when my Dad divorced, and then took his 4 kids to church, apparently the priest thought it appropriate to kind of embarrass my father with his sermon, even if not called out by name.
That's fucked up.

[Gunny]

I agree with that bro, but for crying out loud, just raising your arm? Isn't halting the sermon just to excoriate that person a little extreme just for raising your arm? Seems to me it is. I'd have stood up and walked out without being asked to leave, and probably left a few choice words for the preacher on the way out.


Just my two cents.I don't know. Never seen anyone do it. We had unwritten rules and complied with them. And if everyone else is not doing it, you probably don't need to. I can't imagine waving my arms to the music in church. I don't see the point to it. It WOULD stand out in the churches I went to.

[Abbey Marie]

Seems to me y'all are being judgmental of that pastor/church. Goes both ways :whistling2:

The congregation decides what is acceptable and not. I've never seen a visitor treated that way, but if it is determined that one person's behavior is disrupting the service for all, then I take no issue with that person being asked to comply. That's just common courtesy and that is all the issue amounts to.

Really? I'd be interested to hear how you can defend this Pastor for calling her out publicly during a service. Customs or not, at the very least, he could have spoken to her privately afterwards, or if he ever saw her again. Instead, he chose to embarrass her- for the audacity to praise God in church. It's like he thought the ceiling would fall in if she raised her hands.

[Abbey Marie]

I don't know. Never seen anyone do it. We had unwritten rules and complied with them. And if everyone else is not doing it, you probably don't need to. I can't imagine waving my arms to the music in church. I don't see the point to it. It WOULD stand out in the churches I went to.


It's not done to make a "point". It's something that you feel in the moment. Either you feel it or you don't. If you can't imagine it, don't do it. Unlike this Pastor, no one will judge you for not ​doing it.

[mundame]

Thanks to all for the many very interesting perspectives!

I am leaning toward thinking this pastor was a very controlling and rather harsh person; and/or that he wanted everyone's attention on him alone. Getting himself confused with God up there at the pulpit.

[Black Diamond]

It's not done to make a "point". It's something that you feel in the moment. Either you feel it or you don't. If you can't imagine it, don't do it. Unlike this Pastor, no one will judge you for not ​doing it.
I am surprised by the call out. But wouldn't have been surprised by stares and a talking to afterwards. I have been in churches from one end of the spectrum to the other. Places have different attitudes toward expressive worship.... Or lack thereof.

[aboutime]

Sounds to me like that church is more concerned with HOW THEY APPEAR, as in Political Correctness, than actually worshipping God.

Those who go to such a church...TO IMPRESS the others there, are hypocrites. The pastor should happily Welcome Everyone, no matter how they show their Faith.

Just my opinion, and reminded me of when I was little, going to a Baptist Church.
I had become afraid of going, and sitting with the rest of the Sunday School class at the beginning of the Sermon...because I thought they BAPTISED everybody every Sunday. I was afraid of the water behind the Minister. Honestly!

[darin]

I see your point, but disagree. People "know God" as they are taught to. "Knowing God" and conforming to accepted norms are two separate things; although, interwoven.

I was taught you dress up in dress clothes (your finest rainments) to go into the Lord's House. Others see it differently. God is love, but also is "all things to all people".

As opposed to the thread title, the woman was not denied a seat in a house of worship. She was simply instructed on how to conduct herself. They don't allow food and drinks in most churches either. Slamming a church for having rules of conduct is going a bit far. We follow rules of conduct the second we step outside our doors, and have to follow some even INSIDE our own walls. It's not a stretch in a society based on rules, and a religion based on rules, that there are rules.

If you don't like a church, go somewhere else. If you are a guest, it is merely displaying one's manners to observe their rules, not bring your own.

none of those things speak to my point - without Love, one cannot know God. nothing else matters, ultimately. The guy did not behave in a way that shows people he knows what love is. Ergo - based on the evidence of his behaviour, he doesn't know God.

God doesn't care about our rules, traditions, or conduct. God cares about our love for him and others.

[Gunny]

none of those things speak to my point - without Love, one cannot know God. nothing else matters, ultimately. The guy did not behave in a way that shows people he knows what love is. Ergo - based on the evidence of his behaviour, he doesn't know God.

God doesn't care about our rules, traditions, or conduct. God cares about our love for him and others. You are basing your argument on YOUR definition of "what God is". That does NOT address the issue of appropriate behavior during services. You're making this big "love" issue out of simply behaving in accordance with your surroundings which ALL men expect of men so we don't all just kill each other whenever someone pisses someone off. You cannot discard proper rules of conduct for people as it suits your argument because we ARE people and you cannot remove us from the equation of Man worshiping God.

I wouldn't go to the church I grew up in because I don't conform to their standards. I see no reason to make an issue of it. They are all for the most part good people as I remember them. I don't like their rules so I don't go there. I don't like movie theaters so I don't go to them either.

This is just a case of looking to be offended. Go somewhere else and I'll wait for the movie to come out on DVD so I can watch it at home with endless cheap popcorn and my feet on the table and 10,000 kids not talking over the movie.

[gabosaurus]

I have to agree with Gunny that no church should have to change its ways because a visitor or newcomer doesn't feel comfortable. Every church does things a certain way. The members must agree or they wouldn't continue attending. The first church service I went to was Catholic, because my college roommate is of that faith. It was very old school, which suited her but not me. My current church recently added a couple who stopped attending their previous church after the pastor began calling out "those who refuse to give what they owe The Lord" in his sermons. No one is required to attend any church. Or attend at all. It's an individual choice.

[Gunny]

I have to agree with Gunny that no church should have to change its ways because a visitor or newcomer doesn't feel comfortable. Every church does things a certain way. The members must agree or they wouldn't continue attending. The first church service I went to was Catholic, because my college roommate is of that faith. It was very old school, which suited her but not me. My current church recently added a couple who stopped attending their previous church after the pastor began calling out "those who refuse to give what they owe The Lord" in his sermons. No one is required to attend any church. Or attend at all. It's an individual choice.Gee thanks. Now I REALLY feel like the bad guy. Gabby agreed with me :laugh:

I think the issue here is reality vs idealism. I try to not let Man's reality taint my ideals. Ideally, everyone would just get along and knock off the drama over immaterial BS. I don't agree with a lot of things different churches have done. So I quit going to them. Problem solved.

I do not feel it is right to be made feel unwelcome in the House of the Lord. I also do not feel that it is okay for the individual to demand the conformity of, or impose up the majority; which, is the theme behind ALL of my political arguments as well as any other argument.

I can tell most of y'all would HATE the church I was raised in :laugh:. Bunch of old blue-hairs of which your grandmother was one and your mother, the organist, in training to be one. Grandfather was a Deacon and Superintendent of Sunday Schools. Everybody knew everybody else's business, true or not :). But that's the way it was and we were fine with it.

I don't remember anyone ever being made to feel unwelcome. I also don't remember anyone doing anything much out of the norm.

[Kathianne]

I agree that the pastor calling her out was wrong, on the other hand it seems to me there is a comparison to be made regarding respecting the norms of others, such as those who don't care for everything now in Spanish.

There are plenty of churches that would be a good fit for nearly anyone, just got to find where she's comfortable. That church isn't it. ;)

[tailfins]

We are puzzled and dismayed about this religious issue -- maybe someone can explain it.

My daughter-in-law visited her brother and his family and offered to take the little niece to Sunday School. They aren't religious but thought she would enjoy it (and she had a great time, fortunately, not knowing of the fireworks in the sanctuary).

This was a Baptist church. During the sermon, my DIL started waving her arm in praise. My own history is Methodist and we never did that but daughter and DIL have long gone to the sort of churches that meet in movie theaters or store fronts and they do. It's not wild behavior: just a sort of ritualized limp waving, as I've seen it.

The minister stopped abruptly and said right in the congregation for her to stop doing that: they don't wave arms in this church! She stopped and said she was sorry, but then got mad and rethought it and said no one could tell her how she could or couldn't praise Jesus, and left the sanctuary.

Well, darn. We always thought Baptists were............looser, more enthusiastic maybe, than that. This sounds downright Episcopal, rigid. No one was rolling around or shrieking in tongues, after all --- both of which I've seen or heard of, in days of yore.

What do you all think of this? She posted the story on Facebook, and her friends said she ought to come to their churches.


Were they German Baptist? If so, they are just a shade away from being Amish. Stuffy churches like the one mentioned above are getting more and more elderly with lower and lower attendance. My father-in-law is the exact opposite: Before he retired, he was a pastor in Brazil. His church was known for sobering up drunks and drug addicts, protecting prostitutes from their pimps, giving a change of clothes to the homeless, etc. It was "come as you are" and in any condition. The churches he planted always grew quickly and were generally full.

[darin]

You are basing your argument on YOUR definition of "what God is". That does NOT address the issue of appropriate behavior during services. You're making this big "love" issue out of simply behaving in accordance with your surroundings which ALL men expect of men so we don't all just kill each other whenever someone pisses someone off. You cannot discard proper rules of conduct for people as it suits your argument because we ARE people and you cannot remove us from the equation of Man worshiping God.

I wouldn't go to the church I grew up in because I don't conform to their standards. I see no reason to make an issue of it. They are all for the most part good people as I remember them. I don't like their rules so I don't go there. I don't like movie theaters so I don't go to them either.

This is just a case of looking to be offended. Go somewhere else and I'll wait for the movie to come out on DVD so I can watch it at home with endless cheap popcorn and my feet on the table and 10,000 kids not talking over the movie.


You're making this big "love" issue...

No, it's no argument. It's fact. It's fact among Christian Churches or the Churches are not Christian. Christian churches believe by necessity God is Love. When the very pastor acts outside of 'love' - even if he is correct - he shows those looking he does not know God. Because he doesn't know Love. If he knew love, Love would have guided him at the very worst to speak to the woman AFTER the service was over. If he knew love, the symptoms would be present. The beauty of Love - the beauty of Grace is this: Life is unfair. Breaking rules are forgiven without consequence or repartitions.


out of simply behaving in accordance with your surroundings which ALL men expect of men so we don't all just kill each other whenever someone pisses someone off.

that makes no sense to me.


"You cannot discard proper rules of conduct for people as it suits your argument because we ARE people and you cannot remove us from the equation of Man worshiping God."

Sure I can. Because Love trumps Rules of conduct for people. Love trumps Arguments. Love trumps People. God is Love. Love is the very nature of God - and if a Christian church IS a christian church, they believe Love and God - and God's love is an all-consuming fire and it purifies and makes things new and is the central aspect of the nature of God.

OR - and this is the ONLY an clear exception to what I just wrote:

"They are not a Christian Church."

The pastor was being a dick. He put rules and tradition and conduct and the church's habits above the Love for the new attendee. He singled her out and caused her embarrassment. LOVE. CANNOT. DO. THOSE. THINGS. Ergo, The pastor displayed Lack of Love - thus, Lack of the knowledge of the nature of God.

[Gunny]

I make perfect sense. You are trying to define "God" and set YOUR parameters on Him. You judging the pastor is acting in an un-Christian manner. See how that works? When I become perfect, I'll be sure and lecture you on what being "Christian-like" is. :) We are ALL sinners and not perfect and subject to "un-Christian" behavior, especially in our society as it is.

Until then it's not worth arguing about because it has no end and just creates bad blood.

[darin]

I make perfect sense. You are trying to define "God" and set YOUR parameters on Him. You judging the pastor is acting in an un-Christian manner. See how that works? When I become perfect, I'll be sure and lecture you on what being "Christian-like" is. :) We are ALL sinners and not perfect and subject to "un-Christian" behavior, especially in our society as it is.

Until then it's not worth arguing about because it has no end and just creates bad blood.

Except that's not the case.

The pastor's church defines God as "love".
The pastor's actions are contrary to Love.

Love and Grace dictate - when Love and Grace are KNOWN to a person - that knowledge COMMANDS the person's actions be affected by the knowledge. The actions are the symptoms of what one really feels deep down in side. The pastor approaching the woman after the service, in private or in a quiet way, are the only symptoms showing the pastor understands what Love is, WHO love is. Calling somebody out in the middle of a service for what amounts to NOTHING means the pastor got his spiritual boners from showing the rest of the congregation how HOLY his is by publicly correcting somebody he's likely never even spoken to.

I'm judging the pastor's actions - his show things that are not compatible with "Love your neighbor as yourself". You are making excuses for the pastor's lack of love, citing ritual, rules, conduct, justice and the like.

Loving somebody is THE ONLY THING for christians. In fact, Christ was pretty clear about that when he was asked. Christ said clearly to love God and love others in the same way you love yourself.

Embarrassing a new attendee is NOT love. Leads me to believe the pastor does not know what love is. If he doesn't know what Love is, he cannot know God - because...say it with me....God IS love. If you want to discredit the truth I'm telling you by calling me a "judger!!!OMG!! OHNO!!!" then so be it. The part about 'we are all sinners' - who gives a shit. Nobody can use "Well, I'm just a sinner like you" as an excuse to be an asshole to a stranger. Because if we are assholes to strangers - the VERB part of that - the asshole-i-ness (I just coined a new word. AssHoliness) shows the entire audience the pastor has no idea who God is. Or if he has an idea who God is, the Love like God isn't part of his life - because nobody who loves can do such a thing as he did.

Things God is not:

...worried about decorum.
...worried about tradition.
...worried about rules.
...worried about 'sin' failures.
...worried about how each person interprets who God is.
...worried about who waves their hands in church during sincere worship.

Things God IS:

...Love.

[Gunny]

I disagree. God is much more complex than just "love". You cannot simplify God onto one word. Even God does not. This is the US.

The issue IS Freedom of religion is a RIGHT. Go somewhere that suits you. And,

There are as many definitions for God as there are people. Yours is but one.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I think everyone has made good points. It's been an interesting discussion.

[darin]

I disagree. God is much more complex than just "love". You cannot simplify God onto one word. Even God does not. This is the US.

The issue IS Freedom of religion is a RIGHT. Go somewhere that suits you. And,

There are as many definitions for God as there are people. Yours is but one.

You are talking about a couple different topics here.

First - doesn't matter what you agree with. THE CHURCH THE WOMAN ATTENDED agrees "God is Love". Love isn't a word, it's a verb. The verb of Love IS who God is. Unfortunately we have to use words to write. So...yeah.

This is not about freedom of religion - it's about a pastor being a jerk-wad to a young lady he didn't know; and doing it in a public way.

Antithesis of love. Antithesis of God. God as described by the church the pastor leads.

American Baptists believe in bringing folks to an understand of God:
5 (http://www.abc-usa.org/10facts/) American Baptists...have made Christ’s love known in the U.S. and around the world.

Except in the church in question...Love was not present that day.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

You are talking about a couple different topics here.

First - doesn't matter what you agree with. THE CHURCH THE WOMAN ATTENDED agrees "God is Love". Love isn't a word, it's a verb. The verb of Love IS who God is. Unfortunately we have to use words to write. So...yeah.

This is not about freedom of religion - it's about a pastor being a jerk-wad to a young lady he didn't know; and doing it in a public way.

Antithesis of love. Antithesis of God. God as described by the church the pastor leads.

American Baptists believe in bringing folks to an understand of God:
5 (http://www.abc-usa.org/10facts/) American Baptists...have made Christ’s love known in the U.S. and around the world.

Except in the church in question...Love was not present that day.
I think God is much more than just "love."

He didn't create all that is with love. He's got power we can't fathom, and it has a scope far beyond just love. But that really is another discussion, isn't it.

This is about a preacher who publicly humiliated an innocent woman in church in front of a bunch of other people simply for raising her arm. Had she stood up and her eyes rolled back and she started swaying and wailing and speaking in tongue and thrashing her arms about, THAT I could understand asking her to stop doing. But simply raising her arm, quietly, while seated... I think it's extreme to stop the sermon, single her out and embarrass her in front of the entire congregation, ya, that preacher was being a DICK, it was totally uncalled for. He could have waited until church was getting out and met her at the door to shake her hand like I remember our preacher doing long ago, and said something like... "it was so nice to see a new face in church today, are you from around here, I was just wondering because, we usually refrain from waving our arms in the air in our church... so nice to see you though, I hope we see you again." THAT is what I would expect from a true Christian PREACHER, if raising ones arm is truly such an egregious violation.

[Black Diamond]

I disagree. God is much more complex than just "love". You cannot simplify God onto one word. Even God does not. This is the US.

The issue IS Freedom of religion is a RIGHT. Go somewhere that suits you. And,

There are as many definitions for God as there are people. Yours is but one.
ask sodom and gomorrah how loving God is.

[Black Diamond]

I think God is much more than just "love."

He didn't create all that is with love. He's got power we can't fathom, and it has a scope far beyond just love. But that really is another discussion, isn't it.

This is about a preacher who publicly humiliated an innocent woman in church in front a bunch of other people simply for raising her arm. Had she stood up and her eyes rolled back and she started swaying and wailing and speaking in tongue and thrashing her arms about, THAT I could understand asking her to stop doing. But simply raising her arm, quietly, while seated... I think it's extreme to stop the sermon, single her out and embarrass her in front of the entire congregation, ya, that preacher was being a DICK, it was totally uncalled for. He could have waited until church was getting out and met her at the door like I remember our preacher doing long ago, and said something like... "it was so nice to see a new face in church today, are you from around here, I was just wondering because, we usually refrain from waving our arms in the air in our church... so nice to see you though, I hope we see you again." THAT is what I would expect from a true Christian PREACHER.
i know some tongue talkers who should pay this dude a visit. get about 20 of them in there. :laugh:

[Abbey Marie]

Jesus was far from a rule follower. He was criticized for mingling with the wrong sort of folks. He over-turned the tables of the money changers in the temple. This pastor is quite clearly in need of his own spiritual awakening.

"God is love". 1 John 4:16

"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love". 1 John 4:8

I am very sensitive to what goes on during worship. There are flaws in every church, IMO, some much worse than others. From ego issues, to lifeless worship, etc. There is beauty and truth in old time choirs and in contemporary music. The customs and styles do not matter. The only real question is, is the Holy Spirit present? From what Mundame has told us anyway, I'd say no.

I would run from this church, as I expect the Spirit has.

[Gunny]

You are talking about a couple different topics here.

First - doesn't matter what you agree with. THE CHURCH THE WOMAN ATTENDED agrees "God is Love". Love isn't a word, it's a verb. The verb of Love IS who God is. Unfortunately we have to use words to write. So...yeah.

This is not about freedom of religion - it's about a pastor being a jerk-wad to a young lady he didn't know; and doing it in a public way.

Antithesis of love. Antithesis of God. God as described by the church the pastor leads.

American Baptists believe in bringing folks to an understand of God:
5 (http://www.abc-usa.org/10facts/) American Baptists...have made Christ’s love known in the U.S. and around the world.

Except in the church in question...Love was not present that day.It does matter what I agree with. I tried to be nice and walk. You KNOW I won't back down. Not our first rodeo.

You presume to state what God is and what God's rules are. So does that church. What makes you better? Or different? Nothing. YOU don't define God. The Bibe defines God. It is His word.

In the Bible, it is stated God is a jealous God. God is vengeful. God is war and God is death and eternal life. He has used fire and brimstone, pestilence, plague, flood and other means to show his displeasure. You don't get to cut out the parts of God as it suits your belief or your argument. That's what you're accusing the pastor of doing. EXACT same thing.

People go to church to worship God in the way they believe every bit as you do. You are expected to conduct yourself according to Church standards and how that church views worship. If you don't like it, don't go. Pick another church. In this country you have freedom of choice.

If I wanted a God with parameters I could go to church or ask you. You're doing the exact thing you are being hard-headed about claiming you are against.

[Black Diamond]

My problem isn't that it's unacceptable there. It's how the pastor handled it. A simple "we don't raise our hands during the service " afterwards would have sufficed imo

[darin]

It does matter what I agree with. I tried to be nice and walk. You KNOW I won't back down. Not our first rodeo.

You presume to state what God is and what God's rules are.


Cool. Except I never did that. I wrote Christian churches Must believe the bible. They must believe God is love. They must believe to know God is to know Love. Take it up with the Baptists and the Bible they claim to believe-in.



So does that church. What makes you better? Or different? Nothing. YOU don't define God. The Bibe defines God. It is His word.



and the Bible defines God as 'Love'. God as an all-consuming fire. God as eternal. Yep. Been saying that. glad you're reading.



In the Bible, it is stated God is a jealous God. God is vengeful. God is war and God is death and eternal life. He has used fire and brimstone, pestilence, plague, flood and other means to show his displeasure. You don't get to cut out the parts of God as it suits your belief or your argument. That's what you're accusing the pastor of doing. EXACT same thing.

You don't get to take things out of context and create a strawman. Or, I guess you DO get to do that, but I won't bite. What you wrote, in addition to being biblically untrue at worst, simply mis-understanding at best, is fodder for another thread because it has NOTHING to do with any point anyone has made up until this point.





People go to church to worship God in the way they believe every bit as you do. You are expected to conduct yourself according to Church standards and how that church views worship. If you don't like it, don't go. Pick another church. In this country you have freedom of choice.

None of that has anything to do with the facts of the case.

Fact. Woman went to a new church. Fact. Pastor acted like a dick by calling her out in public - to the point he embarrased her. I'd wager the pastor straight-SINNED by what he did. Because the pastor was a dick to the woman it shows the observer (us, the congregation, God) the pastor doesn't know Love. Since God is love it's reasonable to conclude the pastor doesn't know God. Why? Because Christ or God WOULD NEVER IN A THOUSAND YEARS call a woman on the carpet like that.




If I wanted a God with parameters I could go to church or ask you. You're doing the exact thing you are being hard-headed about claiming you are against.

Are you wilfully or accidentally obtuse? Do you willfully ignore the basic points of arguments or do you do it by accident?

The point is this - and you haven't made even a remotely-valid counter argument yet:

Christian Churches must believe the Bible. The bible tells them - and they often re-affirm what they are told - God is Love.
Christ said we will know believers by their 'fruits' - that means 'we will recognize other believers by the manifestations (the verbs) of their claimed-faith. Thus, if someone claims God, but doesn't love their fellow man, they cannot actually LOVE God. Not my rule. God's rule.

Check it out - spaced and underscored with Greek.


If someone says I love............God.....yet....hates/mistreats/shows less-than-affection or regard towads his.....brother, he.....is a.....liar
...ean........legō...agapaō..ho. theos....kai...miseō.............................. .......................................ho....autos ...adelphos..eimi....pseustēs

For the one who does not love............his.....brother......cannot love God.
gar ho......................mē agapaō ho..autos...adelphos.....ou...agapaō...theos


Some say "A liar says he knows God but does not keep His commands." And what is THE GREATEST COMMAND, according NOT TO DARIN, but to CHRIST? Love GD and Love your fellow man as much as you love yourself.


What are we learning? A pastor- especially a pastor- who humiliates someone, especially in public, displays the opposite of Love. The external, viewed symptom of the condition of the heart of the pastor tells the observer the pastor doesn't know Love. SINCE God IS LOVE...it's reasonable to assume the pastor doesn't know God. And that's a shame.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

If someone says I love............God.....yet....hates/mistreats/shows less-than-affection or regard towads his.....brother, he.....is a.....liar
...ean........legō...agapaō..ho. theos....kai...miseō.............................. .......................................ho....autos ...adelphos..eimi....pseustēs

For the one who does not love............his.....brother......cannot love God.
gar ho......................mē agapaō ho..autos...adelphos.....ou...agapaō...theos
I'm in big trouble then, because I do hate some people.

I won't go into the why I'm not really worried about it though because it's not really related to the thread topic. I have delved into the topic with my super Christian son though, and many of his replies were generic canned responses that have been carefully crafted by "Christians" for people that don't "tow the line," per say. My son and I don't speak anymore.

[darin]

I'm in big trouble then, because I do hate some people.

I won't go into the why I'm not really worried about it though because it's not really related to the thread topic. I have delved into the topic with my super Christian son though, and many of his replies were generic canned responses that have been carefully crafted by "Christians" for people that don't "tow the line," per say. My son and I don't speak anymore.

Christians who worry about 'following the rules' of christianity are misguided in my view. And most of the time, hate is REALLY hurt. We are hurt by people; we carry disdain for them. That's kinda different.

Be Good to people. That's showing love. And not because God told you so, but because being good to people is the right thing to do. Be good to people NOT Because you fear punishment.

Many bible-believing believers are afraid to be unafraid. We think if we aren't motivated to Love people by threat of Eternal Hell, we won't be motivated to love at all. And we like to control people; our churches use threats of eternal damnation to have people toe the line. And sometimes we lack Faith.