So Much For 'Free Markets' and Conservatism

[Kathianne]

One of the reasons I just couldn't. . .

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-01/trump-is-said-to-delay-decision-on-steel-and-aluminum-tariffs


President Donald Trump said the U.S. plans to impose 25 percent tariffs on steel imports and 10 percent on aluminum, and expects to sign a formal order next week.

“We’ll be imposing tariffs on steel imports" and “on aluminum imports,” Trump told metals industry executives at the White House on Thursday. “Some time next week we’ll be signing it in. And you’re going to have protection for the first time in a long time.”


"It will be 25 percent for steel. It will be 10 percent for aluminum,” he said in response to a question from reporters...

Say hello to inflation and trade wars. One of the problems with protectionism is that the industries being 'protected' haven't a reason to invest in their companies. Just one of the problems though.

[Black Diamond]

Saw that. The rust belt (swing states and "blue wall" )is watching. See if he actually goes through with it. My guess is he will. At least to some extent.

[Kathianne]

Saw that. The rust belt (swing states and "blue wall" )is watching. See if he actually goes through with it. My guess is he will. At least to some extent.

Yep, my guess is he will. Sounds great until anyone whose jobs are dependant upon exports will find their products dinged with retaliation or when they go to buy a new car or have interest in real estate where the buildings are steel related. Hello inflation, on top of what was already anticipated with rising interest rates and improving economy.

[Kathianne]

Related: https://www.nationalreview.com/blog/corner/import-taxes-hurt-economic-growth/

Never brought up in the discussions of how the steel industry went from US led to being decimated is the lack of competition during the post WWII boom, so many decades ago. As the only game in the world, profits were astounding, yet none went into keeping up with the modernization occuring in Japan, Germany, and other countries. They never saw the end of their monopoly, just kept raking it in and paying top dollars to the unions.

Same happened to the auto industry, but the repercussions were felt much more quickly due to the individual consumer response. While it still took time for the US auto industry to get back in the competition, they did so.

[Kathianne]

Normally a cheerleader for Trump, Kudlow isn't liking this a bit:

https://twitter.com/larry_kudlow?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fhotair.com%2Farchives%2F2018 %2F03%2F01%2Fu-s-declares-trade-war-trump-surprises-staff-announces-new-tariffs-imposed-steel-aluminum%2F

[Kathianne]

Will Congress take back some of their power over tariffs?

http://www.weeklystandard.com/chilly-trade-winds/article/2006568


...In Lee's view, it's too dangerous for Congress to leave any chance of a trade war up to the whims of any president, and just before the close of business on January 20, Lee's office announced that he had introduced the Global Trade Accountability Act, which would subject executive actions on trade to congressional approval.

When asked why placing tariffs on companies that move factories overseas is such a bad idea, Lee recalls that his grandfather, a "T-Man" or federal agent employed by the Treasury Department in the 1930s, "used to bemoan the fact that he as a T-Man was involved in the enforcement of the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act, which he blamed—and many economists have blamed—for creating the set of conditions that led to the Great Depression. The minute we start to look at job losses that occur here in the United States as something that requires action that would kick off a trade war, we have to take into account those risks."

...

[Black Diamond]

Will Congress take back some of their power over tariffs?

http://www.weeklystandard.com/chilly-trade-winds/article/2006568
Stock market doesn't seem to think so.

[Kathianne]

Stock market doesn't seem to think so.

While not glamorous or likely to be called a 'deal breaker,' this could change the economy and future elections. Time will tell.

[aboutime]

While not glamorous or likely to be called a 'deal breaker,' this could change the economy and future elections. Time will tell.

Keep hoping Kathianne. And while you are at it. Will you return any of the new money you are getting after the tax cuts, or would you like us to go back to keeping oversea's nations charging us for everything, while we don't charge them???
Your pick.

[Black Diamond]

Trump campaigned on this. No one should be surprised.

[Kathianne]

Trump campaigned on this. No one should be surprised.

I agree, it was one of the reasons why...

[Gunny]

Keep hoping Kathianne. And while you are at it. Will you return any of the new money you are getting after the tax cuts, or would you like us to go back to keeping oversea's nations charging us for everything, while we don't charge them???
Your pick.We're already going to return it. Getting a few bucks in the hand now isn't worth a net loss later. I assume you're on a fixed income, AT? You should know that one as well as I. If my pay raise doesn't match the cost of living increase down the road BECAUSE OF the pay raise, it's not a deal.

[aboutime]

We're already going to return it. Getting a few bucks in the hand now isn't worth a net loss later. I assume you're on a fixed income, AT? You should know that one as well as I. If my pay raise doesn't match the cost of living increase down the road BECAUSE OF the pay raise, it's not a deal.

Gunny. Never, has any pay increase I have received, even while on ACTIVE DUTY, ever matched the cost of living. I retired in 1995, and my Pension check has never been enough to say I am not in the poverty level estimated by the Govt.

By the way. It's not a pay raise. Never has been. If you don't like the deal. You can send it back.

[Kathianne]

We're already going to return it. Getting a few bucks in the hand now isn't worth a net loss later. I assume you're on a fixed income, AT? You should know that one as well as I. If my pay raise doesn't match the cost of living increase down the road BECAUSE OF the pay raise, it's not a deal.

Indeed. I never really considered AT one of the haters, but seems he does have a problem with those not in lockstep.

[aboutime]

Indeed. I never really considered AT one of the haters, but seems he does have a problem with those not in lockstep.

How kind of you to say so Kathianne. By the way. As both I, and Gunny have stated many times here. I honestly DON'T CARE what anyone thinks of me, or considers me. UNLESS.....You promise to PAY ALL OF MY BILLS. Then....I am your servant forever. Otherwise. Tough.

[Kathianne]

How kind of you to say so Kathianne. By the way. As both I, and Gunny have stated many times here. I honestly DON'T CARE what anyone thinks of me, or considers me. UNLESS.....You promise to PAY ALL OF MY BILLS. Then....I am your servant forever. Otherwise. Tough.

LOL! Glad no offense was taken. For the record, my feelings about opinions is about the same, other than I don't feel compelled to denigrate those that hold an idea contrary to my own. Have a wonderful day!

[Gunny]

Gunny. Never, has any pay increase I have received, even while on ACTIVE DUTY, ever matched the cost of living. I retired in 1995, and my Pension check has never been enough to say I am not in the poverty level estimated by the Govt.

By the way. It's not a pay raise. Never has been. If you don't like the deal. You can send it back.I don't know what deal you are talking about. What can I send back?

I agree on the pay raise. On active duty we DID get COLA/VHA and BAQ. The COLA/VHA supposed to offset the cost of living where you were assigned which it never covered. Especially in CA. Wasn't even close.

My point is wherever this money we all got back is coming from, it's a bait and switch. I'll give you this right now, then later on he submits a budget that more than takes what he gave us. I stated that's not a deal because it isn't. As far as "I can give it back" whatever you want to call "it", there's not much voluntary anything in any of this. No, I'm not going to donate money to government when regardless my actions, that budget got signed and will be implemented.

[aboutime]

I don't know what deal you are talking about. What can I send back?

I agree on the pay raise. On active duty we DID get COLA/VHA and BAQ. The COLA/VHA supposed to offset the cost of living where you were assigned which it never covered. Especially in CA. Wasn't even close.

My point is wherever this money we all got back is coming from, it's a bait and switch. I'll give you this right now, then later on he submits a budget that more than takes what he gave us. I stated that's not a deal because it isn't. As far as "I can give it back" whatever you want to call "it", there's not much voluntary anything in any of this. No, I'm not going to donate money to government when regardless my actions, that budget got signed and will be implemented.

Gunny. Are you working? If not. I'm confused about what pay raise you are talking about.
Otherwise, as we are retired, and drawing our Pensions, and I with SSI. The COLA never reaches the cost of living...NEVER.

[Gunny]

Gunny. Are you working? If not. I'm confused about what pay raise you are talking about.
Otherwise, as we are retired, and drawing our Pensions, and I with SSI. The COLA never reaches the cost of living...NEVER.I got about a $40 bump in pay. So did my daughter. I doubt it's because of our award-winning personalities. Probably the tax change, but the same rule applies no matter what you call the money or where it's from. I look at the bottom line. Income vs outgo.

Retailers were the first to jack up prices. Fuel. When you start adding it up, all that really happened is the numbers got changed to higher ones. Add Trump's budget where he's calling for locals to raise taxes to pay for half his infrastructure plans, and I'm seeing a net loss in the long run.

[LongTermGuy]

Keep hoping Kathianne. And while you are at it. Will you return any of the new money you are getting after the tax cuts, or would you like us to go back to keeping oversea's nations charging us for everything, while we don't charge them???
Your pick.




This ^^^^^^

[Gunny]

This ^^^^^^


That's not an answer. It has taken years to get where we are. Now we want to force-change it back to a reset that is costing everyone. Same argument Abbey made about the size of government. The change can't be just rammed home. All it's doing is pissing off the world. All the bravado in the World won't help a bit if that World gangs up on us in retribution. Unless you think we can stand going off the global economy all at once. We'll destroy ourselves as much as anyone else.

And remember, Russia, China and probably Iran are sitting around waiting to take our place anywhere we leave. We can't sustain ourselves. It wouldn't even cover the government's pay.

[aboutime]

I got about a $40 bump in pay. So did my daughter. I doubt it's because of our award-winning personalities. Probably the tax change, but the same rule applies no matter what you call the money or where it's from. I look at the bottom line. Income vs outgo.

Retailers were the first to jack up prices. Fuel. When you start adding it up, all that really happened is the numbers got changed to higher ones. Add Trump's budget where he's calling for locals to raise taxes to pay for half his infrastructure plans, and I'm seeing a net loss in the long run.

Gunny. I hear both of you, very clearly. Of course the President is calling for locals to raise taxes to pay for less than half of the infrastructure plans. Would you prefer the FED just print more money we don't have, on top of the 20 TRILLION Obama managed to build up in our debt? That's how we got the debt...printing money we can't back up. But Trump knows how to make Money come back to the country, and more workers will be able to pay more. It's just how Economics in the Capitalist World works. SOMEBODY HAS TO PAY FOR EVERYTHING. The Fed is YOU AND ME, and every other American...and there's still no FEDERAL BUDGET.
Personally. I don't know about you. But my wife and I can't spend WHAT WE DON'T HAVE. And the bank won't just tell us to come and get more.

[Gunny]

Gunny. I hear both of you, very clearly. Of course the President is calling for locals to raise taxes to pay for less than half of the infrastructure plans. Would you prefer the FED just print more money we don't have, on top of the 20 TRILLION Obama managed to build up in our debt? That's how we got the debt...printing money we can't back up. But Trump knows how to make Money come back to the country, and more workers will be able to pay more. It's just how Economics in the Capitalist World works. SOMEBODY HAS TO PAY FOR EVERYTHING. The Fed is YOU AND ME, and every other American...and there's still no FEDERAL BUDGET.
Personally. I don't know about you. But my wife and I can't spend WHAT WE DON'T HAVE. And the bank won't just tell us to come and get more.I would prefer the fed repair its own infrastructure. You're old enough to remember ... the Interstate is the Fed's, not ours. We actually do not have a Right to drive on it.

Reset back to who's a conservative. If the Fed is you and me, then they need to quit spending my money on stuff I don't authorize. There's a WHOLE BUNCH of stuff I do without just fine. And there's a whole bunch of people in DC that need to be in a soup line.

[aboutime]

I would prefer the fed repair its own infrastructure. You're old enough to remember ... the Interstate is the Fed's, not ours. We actually do not have a Right to drive on it.

Reset back to who's a conservative. If the Fed is you and me, then they need to quit spending my money on stuff I don't authorize. There's a WHOLE BUNCH of stuff I do without just fine. And there's a whole bunch of people in DC that need to be in a soup line.

My last comment Gunny. WE ARE THE FED. That's what Washington Politicians fail to recognize.

[Gunny]

My last comment Gunny. WE ARE THE FED. That's what Washington Politicians fail to recognize.I'm not missing any points being made but I think mine is being missed. I generally mind my own business until things start getting messed with that matter. My pay, my guns, and my Constitutional Rights MATTER. So I'm going to bitch.

Come Tuesday, some Texans running for reelection are going to get a good dose of my bitching too. Somebody's going to EARN my vote. Or not. That basically means any Republican not worth a shit to me ain't getting voted for. Goes without saying any Dems can just turn their ships into the wind and take a piss.

[LongTermGuy]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/926303888365510656/IHt-GEhl_bigger.jpgLaura Ingraham‏Verified account @IngrahamAngle (https://twitter.com/IngrahamAngle) 6h6 hours ago (https://twitter.com/IngrahamAngle/status/969384740909445120)More

Most Americans support @realdonaldtrump (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump) on steel & aluminum tariffs.

https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/968647589833961472/R6Xs2WdV?format=jpg&name=600x314

Nearly 60 percent of American voters say imposing tariffs on Chinese steel and aluminum is crucial to the United States’ economic relationship with China.

In a Morning Consult poll (https://morningconsult.com/2018/02/27/trumps-economic-policy-toward-china-elicits-mixed-reviews-americans/), 59 percent of Americans say it is “important” that President Trump place tariffs on imported steel and aluminum, specifically from China, showing a wide range of support for the White House’s economic nationalist agenda.

About 66 percent of voters said shrinking America’s more than $375 billion trade deficit with China was key, as well as 56 percent who said they wanted to see the Trump administration challenge China’s leaders on intellectual property protection, and 44 percent who said they want China labeled as a currency manipulator."

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/03/01/poll-nearly-60-percent-of-americans-say-imposing-tariffs-on-chinese-steel-aluminum-is-crucial/

[LongTermGuy]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/822251886988267520/28GpoRsy_bigger.jpgThe White House‏Verified account @WhiteHouse (https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse) 7h7 hours ago (https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse/status/969377507563790339)More



President Trump is fighting for free, fair, and reciprocal trade.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXPrtEjUMAEiPIZ.jpg:large

[pete311]

US still produces about 70% of it's own steel consumption

[Gunny]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/926303888365510656/IHt-GEhl_bigger.jpgLaura Ingraham‏Verified account @IngrahamAngle (https://twitter.com/IngrahamAngle) 6h6 hours ago (https://twitter.com/IngrahamAngle/status/969384740909445120)More

Most Americans support @realdonaldtrump (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump) on steel & aluminum tariffs.

https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/968647589833961472/R6Xs2WdV?format=jpg&name=600x314

Nearly 60 percent of American voters say imposing tariffs on Chinese steel and aluminum is crucial to the United States’ economic relationship with China.

In a Morning Consult poll (https://morningconsult.com/2018/02/27/trumps-economic-policy-toward-china-elicits-mixed-reviews-americans/), 59 percent of Americans say it is “important” that President Trump place tariffs on imported steel and aluminum, specifically from China, showing a wide range of support for the White House’s economic nationalist agenda.

About 66 percent of voters said shrinking America’s more than $375 billion trade deficit with China was key, as well as 56 percent who said they wanted to see the Trump administration challenge China’s leaders on intellectual property protection, and 44 percent who said they want China labeled as a currency manipulator."

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/03/01/poll-nearly-60-percent-of-americans-say-imposing-tariffs-on-chinese-steel-aluminum-is-crucial/

Polls are worthless. That being said, take this one at face value. Roughly half the people are for high tariffs. When has it not been so? FYI, the battle over high/low tariffs was one of the REAL reasons for the US Civil War. North and South were evenly split in Congress. The Northern industrialists wanted high tariffs to force Americans to buy their goods. The agricultural South wanted low tariffs because it's cash crops were cotton and rice and cotton especially brought WAY more money in trade with Europe than it did in domestic sales. The slave state/free state argument was based on not allowing the North to gain the upper hand in Congress and ruin the South's economy.

For everyone it helps, it also correspondingly hurts someone. I think making US steel a viable commodity again is fine. But make them compete with the rest of the World. The Unions put them out of business first time around, and that's not going to change. I don't see using the law to prop up a failed industry as exactly being part of a capitalist philosophy.

I've lived in the upper Midwest. not a bad place except everything is dead. Would be nice to see it get a boost in the ass. But that is a sentimental POV. If they can't compete on an even scale, then they shouldn't be in business.

[Gunny]

Here's the down side: You own and electrical contracting company. 20-30 employees. I use that as my hypothetical model because I am familiar with it. You bid on jobs. Cost of conduit is included in the bid. Suddenly the cost of steel skyrockets as it did in the mid-2000s when China was hogging it all for themselves. This time because you are paying fort US labor unions' steel and overhead prices that cannot compete on the world market. You of course want to maintain your profit margin because you have your overhead, payroll, etc. And face it, you're not in business for the goodwill of mankind. If you aren't turning a profit worth going to work for, you aren't going to.

So WHO is going to pay for this new tariff? Employees. Wages stagnate. Jobs get cut. People making the highest wages are most vulnerable. Lower wage earners are suddenly pulling 10-12-14 hour days to make up for the cut in manpower.

The workload is not going to decrease and the general contractors are going to resist as much as possible absorbing the cost of the tariff increase. In turn, he is going to face the same problem as the subcontractor. He has to cut employees and wages stagnate. He's going to pass part of the increase in cost to the developer who is going to do the same, and it trickles up to the customer finally who now has to decide whether or not he really wants to invest at the increased price. It turns may away from investing. They're already taking a risk just putting out their money to begin with.

All of this to support an artificial cost of steel for an industry that cannot compete on the world's free market. The only one winning anything that I see out of the deal is the labor unions. Without the unions, the steel industry COULD compete on the world market. So what it essentially boils down to is supporting a Democrat-run bureaucracy (labor unions) by decree.

[Black Diamond]

Polls are worthless. That being said, take this one at face value. Roughly half the people are for high tariffs. When has it not been so? FYI, the battle over high/low tariffs was one of the REAL reasons for the US Civil War. North and South were evenly split in Congress. The Northern industrialists wanted high tariffs to force Americans to buy their goods. The agricultural South wanted low tariffs because it's cash crops were cotton and rice and cotton especially brought WAY more money in trade with Europe than it did in domestic sales. The slave state/free state argument was based on not allowing the North to gain the upper hand in Congress and ruin the South's economy.

For everyone it helps, it also correspondingly hurts someone. I think making US steel a viable commodity again is fine. But make them compete with the rest of the World. The Unions put them out of business first time around, and that's not going to change. I don't see using the law to prop up a failed industry as exactly being part of a capitalist philosophy.

I've lived in the upper Midwest. not a bad place except everything is dead. Would be nice to see it get a boost in the ass. But that is a sentimental POV. If they can't compete on an even scale, then they shouldn't be in business.
It was harder to compete with more and more foreign companies being allowed in. My dads dad would scream bloody murder about how Chicago built their skyscrapers with jap steel when you can see the steel mills in Gary Indiana from many of them.

[Black Diamond]

I like the idea of bringing mfg back to America. It's part of why I supported trump. I figured the stock market would go up but not as much as it would without tariffs or things like them. Time will tell. I find it interesting trump just announced he's running for reelection what a week before this tariff announcement ?

[Gunny]

It was harder to compete with more and more foreign companies being allowed in. My dads dad would scream bloody murder about how Chicago built their skyscrapers with jap steel when you can see the steel mills in Gary Indiana from many of them.The Jap steel was used because US steel couldn't compete in the World market.

What I'd like to know is THIS: ANYONE HEARD FROM The MSM/Left on this? I have seen little. Odd that. This is a completely pro-Union, socialist move and last I checked the Dems were the "strong union people" that got droves of union drones to vote Democrat. So why aren't they singing high praises from the Altar of God?

Oh yeah. Trump did it. He could cure cancer and they'd ignore it.

[Black Diamond]

The Jap steel was used because US steel couldn't compete in the World market.

What I'd like to know is THIS: ANYONE HEARD FROM The MSM/Left on this? I have seen little. Odd that. This is a completely pro-Union, socialist move and last I checked the Dems were the "strong union people" that got droves of union drones to vote Democrat. So why aren't they singing high praises from the Altar of God?

Oh yeah. Trump did it. He could cure cancer and they'd ignore it.
He said "bad hombres" and "grab her by the pussy". He's Satan.

[Black Diamond]

The Jap steel was used because US steel couldn't compete in the World market.

.
That's what my dad told him.

[Gunny]

He said "bad hombres" and "grab her by the pussy". He's Satan.Well, that IS kind of rude. I can't imagine a female being real receptive to being grabbed there.

Guys talking smack in the locker room is no longer permissible. Don't remember? First women NFL reporters whined about being allowed access to the Men's locker room. Wasn't too long before one of them sued a team over inappropriate language in the guy's locker room. Can't have your balls anywhere these days.

[Black Diamond]

Well, that IS kind of rude. I can't imagine a female being real receptive to being grabbed there.

Guys talking smack in the locker room is no longer permissible. Don't remember? First women NFL reporters whined about being allowed access to the Men's locker room. Wasn't too long before one of them sued a team over inappropriate language in the guy's locker room. Can't have your balls anywhere these days.
Correct. And trump said that 13 years ago in a private conversation. Makes me think nbc affected the election more than the hackers or whatever. If you want another opinion re trumps comment. A pastor said "It's inexcusable but not unforgivable ".

[Gunny]

Correct. And trump said that 13 years ago in a private conversation. Makes me think nbc affected the election more than the hackers or whatever. If you want another opinion re trumps comment. A pastor said "It's inexcusable but not unforgivable ".Dude, I'm a Marine. I could give a rat's ass what kind of sh*t guys talk in private. I think I've heard most of it at one time or another. Probably participated in my fair share.