Russian Passenger Plane Crashes Near Moscow; 71 Dead

[Gunny]

February 11, 2018
By Maria Kiselyova and Andrew Osborn

MOSCOW (Reuters) – A Russian passenger plane crashed near Moscow soon after take-off on Sunday, killing all 71 people on board, and investigators said they were looking at all possible causes.
Temperatures were around minus 5 degrees Celsius with periodic snowfall when the short-haul AN-148 operated by Saratov Airlines took off for the city of Orsk in Orenburg region, about 900 miles (1,500 km) southeast of the capital.
President Vladimir Putin offered condolences to those who had lost relatives and ordered a special investigative commission to be set up.
“According to preliminary information, nobody survived,” the Kremlin said in a statement.


cont ... http://www.oann.com/plane-crashes-near-moscow-killing-71-people-agencies/

This is exactly why I don't trust those little "buses with wings".

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I never had a problem flying on a military plane, but public air craft... aaaahh, no. I'm not flying anywhere. I'll drive, take a bus, a train, a ship, whatever, but no public planes.

Far as the Russian plane, sounds like it was iced up to me.

[Elessar]

I never had a problem flying on a military plane, but public air craft... aaaahh, no. I'm not flying anywhere. I'll drive, take a bus, a train, a ship, whatever, but no public planes.

Far as the Russian plane, sounds like it was iced up to me.

I know ours are safety checked both on assumption of duty and pre-flight checks.

I cannot be too sure of commercial and/or civilian flights.

But...the crash and lives lost is indeed tragic.

[Gunny]

I never had a problem flying on a military plane, but public air craft... aaaahh, no. I'm not flying anywhere. I'll drive, take a bus, a train, a ship, whatever, but no public planes.

Far as the Russian plane, sounds like it was iced up to me.Y'know, I never had a problem hopping on a 141 or C5A. So, you get a web seat and box lunch? I didn't get on for some faux luxury. USAF pilots get it in the air and boogie. They're not getting paid by the hour, nor does my leave on the books care whether I get where I'm going in 12 hours or 3 days. Screw that noise. I'll take the web seats and noisy monster machine.

Those little bitty commuter planes are sardine cans that can't handle turbulence. I have no idea who they built them for. Japanese people? I don't consider myself THAT big and I don't fit in the damn thing. I end up sitting with my shoulders at a 45 degree angle.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I know ours are safety checked both on assumption of duty and pre-flight checks.

I cannot be too sure of commercial and/or civilian flights.

But...the crash and lives lost is indeed tragic.
Yup, I worked air craft avionics maintenance, and I know just how strict the military is about keeping their air craft maintained. Civilian planes, hell they land them, fuel them and then fly them again, over and over. That shit doesn't happen like that in the military.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Y'know, I never had a problem hopping on a 141 or C5A. So, you get a web seat and box lunch? I didn't get on for some faux luxury. USAF pilots get it in the air and boogie. They're not getting paid by the hour, nor does my leave on the books care whether I get where I'm going in 12 hours or 3 days. Screw that noise. I'll take the web seats and noisy monster machine.

Those little bitty commuter planes are sardine cans that can't handle turbulence. I have no idea who they built them for. Japanese people? I don't consider myself THAT big and I don't fit in the damn thing. I end up sitting with my shoulders at a 45 degree angle.
Yup, we were always palletizing and loading C-141's for an Operational Rediness Inspection, that was the big one, or Maintenance Evaluation Inspection, something, but we'd load up everything and then fly somewhere overnight, never knew where we were at, they wouldn't tell us, need to know, but it was usually about 13 hours in the air so we figured probably our parent wing somewhere in England. Fly in at night, eat, sleep, get up, dark again, eat, fly back. I liked the 141's, I never felt unsafe in one. Only rode in a C-5 Galaxy once at an air show at Nellis, but rode in quite a few C-130 Hercs. They fly those into hurricanes, so if there was ever a plane you were safe in, it's a Hercules. I even felt real safe in the F-16. The F-4... aaaahh... I had a little anxiety in that plane, but flying around Lake Mead was fun.

Yeah I will NOT get on one of those little "commuter" planes either, no way no how. You are stuffed in like a sardine. I'm not necessarily claustrophobic, but being stuffed in a seat by the window would probably do it.

[pete311]

I never had a problem flying on a military plane, but public air craft... aaaahh, no. I'm not flying anywhere. I'll drive, take a bus, a train, a ship, whatever, but no public planes.

Far as the Russian plane, sounds like it was iced up to me.

I hear about military helicopters crashing all the time.

[Gunny]

I hear about military helicopters crashing all the time.Rotary and fixed wing aircraft are not the same animals. Since the Army, Navy & Marine Corps still use transport helicopters designed before I was born and used in Vietnam, odds are good one's going to crash every so often. Flip side of that coin is they are awesome birds to STILL be in service.

I'd rather ride in a Frog or a 53 than one of those "Made in China" commuter planes.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I hear about military helicopters crashing all the time.
No you don't, compared to how much time they spend in the air, it's extremely rare.

And the Air Force never had helicopters that I was ever aware of. If they do have them it's probably just for scuttling around big brass. The president's personal helicopters are maintained and flown by the Marines.

[pete311]

Rotary and fixed wing aircraft are not the same animals. Since the Army, Navy & Marine Corps still use transport helicopters designed before I was born and used in Vietnam, odds are good one's going to crash every so often. Flip side of that coin is they are awesome birds to STILL be in service.

I'd rather ride in a Frog or a 53 than one of those "Made in China" commuter planes.

The vast majority of commercial planes in the world are US, EU, Canadian or Brazilian made.

[Gunny]

No you don't, compared to how much time they spend in the air, it's extremely rare.

And the Air Force never had helicopters that I ever saw. If they do have them it's probably just for scuttling around big brass. The president's personal helicopters are maintained and flown by the Marines.They have them. They're painted black and hover around pete's house :tinfoil: ... :laugh:

Seriously, they DO have some, or did, in SpecOps.

[Balu]

I never had a problem flying on a military plane, but public air craft... aaaahh, no. I'm not flying anywhere. I'll drive, take a bus, a train, a ship, whatever, but no public planes.

Far as the Russian plane, sounds like it was iced up to me.

Most likely.
The craft was air-born for 4 minutes, climbed up to 2,000 meters, descended down to 1,500 miters, climbed again to 1,800 and finally fall.
Weather: snow, clouds 250 - 4,000 meters.
They say that Captain rejected to get the aircraft to be processed by liquids.

[NightTrain]

Most likely.
The craft was air-born fo 4 minutes, climbed up to 2,000 meters, descended down to 1,500 miters, climbed again to 1,800 and finally fall.
Weather: snow, clouds 250 - 4,000 meters.
They say that Captain rejected to get the aircraft to be processed by liquids.


Yeah, sounds like icing. I've been on many, many flights that were delayed out of Anchorage International because the trucks needed to spray the aircraft with de-icing chemicals prior to takeoff. It's well worth it when icing conditions are present.

I didn't know that a Captain had the authority to decline de-icing when the regulations call for it. I don't think they do for commercial traffic here in the USA.

[Balu]

Yeah, sounds like icing. I've been on many, many flights that were delayed out of Anchorage International because the trucks needed to spray the aircraft with de-icing chemicals prior to takeoff. It's well worth it when icing conditions are present.

I didn't know that a Captain had the authority to decline de-icing when the regulations call for it. I don't think they do for commercial traffic here in the USA.
I do not think that there can be strict criteria as the temperature, air pressure and dew point in different layers of clouds may differ. You see, in this very case the thickness of clouds is rather significant and it is hardly possible to predict.

[Elessar]

Yup, I worked air craft avionics maintenance, and I know just how strict the military is about keeping their air craft maintained. Civilian planes, hell they land them, fuel them and then fly them again, over and over. That shit doesn't happen like that in the military.

Exactly!

Civil aviation is not nearly as strict as military.

[Elessar]

I hear about military helicopters crashing all the time.

They are a very different animal than a fixed-wing.

Helicopters torque so much that it shatters the framework.

I liked taking rides on them, but the PMS on a helo far exceeds that
of a fixed wing

[Balu]

Exactly!

Civil aviation is not nearly as strict as military.
True.
Besides, small companies have to save on any possible expenses. It is a pity, but it is so. In the USSR we didn't have such approaches, which can relate to safety directly or indirectly.

[Elessar]

No you don't, compared to how much time they spend in the air, it's extremely rare.

And the Air Force never had helicopters that I was ever aware of. If they do have them it's probably just for scuttling around big brass. The president's personal helicopters are maintained and flown by the Marines.

USAF does have copters....H-60's and UH-1's, but mostly Air National Guard.

I had several cases using ANG helicopters with PJ's on board.
Gutsy, professional, and determined to carry our a mission!

[Elessar]

Most likely.
The craft was air-born for 4 minutes, climbed up to 2,000 meters, descended down to 1,500 miters, climbed again to 1,800 and finally fall.
Weather: snow, clouds 250 - 4,000 meters.
They say that Captain rejected to get the aircraft to be processed by liquids.

It sucks, Balu

Loss of life like that grates me

[Elessar]

Yeah, sounds like icing. I've been on many, many flights that were delayed out of Anchorage International because the trucks needed to spray the aircraft with de-icing chemicals prior to takeoff. It's well worth it when icing conditions are present.

I didn't know that a Captain had the authority to decline de-icing when the regulations call for it. I don't think they do for commercial traffic here in the USA.

USCG, you cannot decline it. It is in the AirOps regulations

[NightTrain]

I do not think that there can be strict criteria as the temperature, air pressure and dew point in different layers of clouds may differ. You see, in this very case the thickness of clouds is rather significant and it is hardly possible to predict.


It can be predicted and forecast, and bolstered with information from weather monitoring arrays & of course, pilot reports.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/125.221

This is one small subsection of American laws & rules regarding ice. I remember going through many hours of aviation icing problem study when I was training to be a pilot years ago and here in Alaska it's always a big concern especially in the colder months.

A commercial pilot here can't legally take off when the conditions are present, and I'm almost 100% positive that the Pilot in Command can't wave off the prescribed anti-icing procedures and then fly off into worse weather - especially heading into the clouds holding the moisture.

I think we have a very different set of rules between our two countries, which is to be expected. I suspect ours are much more cautious than yours are, probably driven mostly by fear of being sued into oblivion when something catastrophic like this occurs.

[Elessar]

It can be predicted and forecast, and bolstered with information from weather monitoring arrays & of course, pilot reports.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/125.221

This is one small subsection of American laws & rules regarding ice. I remember going through many hours of aviation icing problem study when I was training to be a pilot years ago and here in Alaska it's always a big concern especially in the colder months.

A commercial pilot here can't legally take off when the conditions are present, and I'm almost 100% positive that the Pilot in Command can't wave off the prescribed anti-icing procedures and then fly off into worse weather - especially heading into the clouds holding the moisture.

I think we have a very different set of rules between our two countries, which is to be expected. I suspect ours are much more cautious than yours are, probably driven mostly by fear of being sued into oblivion when something catastrophic like this occurs.

Good to hear someone that knows!

Thanks, NightTrain!

[Balu]

NightTrain and Elessar,
You both are right. But... there may be borderline state of conditions and the time of their influence. I've said that day it started snowing and 5-10 min could make it necessary or not to use anti-icing procedure or jet fan cleaning of surfaces only.

[Balu]

It sucks, @Balu (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=3557)

Loss of life like that grates me

I wrote: "THEY SAY". As far as I know it means that the info is not 100% reliable info.

[NightTrain]

NightTrain and Elessar,
You both are right. But... there may be borderline state of conditions and the time of their influence. I've said that day it started snowing and 5-10 min could make it necessary or not to use anti-icing procedure or jet fan cleaning of surfaces only.

Oh, for certain the conditions can change in just a couple of minutes. Absolutely.


Anyway, this is indeed a tragedy and a very sad story for those lost souls & their families.

[Elessar]

Oh, for certain the conditions can change in just a couple of minutes. Absolutely.


Anyway, this is indeed a tragedy and a very sad story for those lost souls & their families.

I had one on duty where 87 died. Plane plummeted from 33,000- feet, leveled off at 19,000,
Then corkscrewed into the Santa Barbara Channel off Anacapa Island.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Airlines_Flight_261

[NightTrain]

I had one on duty where 87 died. Plane plummeted from 33,000- feet, leveled off at 19,000,
The corkscrewed into the Santa Barbara Channel off Anacapa Island.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Airlines_Flight_261


I remember that very well. The old MD-80 and the jackscrew.

It wasn't long after that, that Alaska Airlines got rid of all of them and went to 737s.

[Elessar]

I remember that very well. The old MD-80 and the jackscrew.

It wasn't long after that, that Alaska Airlines got rid of all of them and went to 737s.

THAT, was my 'Longest Day'...

[Balu]

Experts decode possible cause behind An-148 jet crash

World (http://tass.com/world)
February 13, 16:49 UTC+3
There was an emergency situation aboard the crashed An-148 jet developed minutes after takeoff




https://cdn2.tass.ru/width/744_b12f2926/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20180213/1187423.jpg
© Natalya Dmitrak/TASS

MOSCOW, February 13. /TASS/.The crash of the passenger plane near Moscow could have been caused by the incorrect data on the flight’s speed as a result of the sensors icing up, the Interstate Aviation Committee said on Tuesday, after deciphering the flight data recorder.
Read also
https://cdn1.tass.ru/width/333_3412a45b/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20180213/1187388.jpg (http://tass.com/politics/989769)Putin thanks Trump for offering assistance in investigating An-148 plane crash (http://tass.com/politics/989769)





"A preliminary analysis of the recorded information, and also the analysis of similar cases that occurred in the past suggest that a distinct situation could have developed in mid-air due to incorrect data on the flight’s speed on the pilots’ displays. This in turn, could have been linked to the ice-up of the total pressure probes since their heating systems were switched off," the Interstate Aviation Committee said.
"During all the other flights registered on the flight recorder [15 more flights], the heating of the total pressure probes was switched on before takeoff in its line-up position," the Interstate Aviation Committee said in its report.
An emergency situation developed aboard the crashed An-148 passenger plane about 2.5 minutes after takeoff, the Interstate Aviation Committee also said.
"A special situation began to develop about 2 minutes and 30 seconds after the takeoff at an altitude of around 1,300 meters and the indicator speed of 465-470 km/h," the Interstate Aviation Committee said.

At that moment, the passenger plane’s flight recorders recorded divergences between the readings of the speed sensors, it said.
Thirty seconds after that, the divergences in the speed sensors reached about 30 km/h, after which the one-off command for the crew appeared: "The Instrument Panel - Compare!" This command was repeated at an altitude of about 2,000 meters and this time the difference between the speed sensors’ readings grew even bigger.
After the second command: "The Instrument Panel - Compare!" the crew turned off the autopilot and the subsequent flight proceeded in manual mode. The speed indications of the plane’s air parameter modules strongly differed from each other: one showed a speed of 0 km/h and the other 540-560 km/h. Then the speed indications of the latter sensor started to fall intensively (to 200 km/h and lower) and the plane was switched into intensive descent with angular movement for a dive at 30-35 degrees.
Read also
https://phototass3.cdnvideo.ru/width/333_3412a45b/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20180211/1187253.jpg (http://tass.com/world/989479)Passenger plane crashes in Moscow region (http://tass.com/world/989479)





Before the plane hit the ground, one of the sensors continued to show a speed of 0 km/h while the other showed a speed of 800 km/h.
"Four-five seconds before hitting the ground, the plane developed a right-side roll of 25 degrees," the Interstate Aviation Committee said, adding that it continued to analyze the information obtained.
Radio contact with the An-148 passenger plane of the Saratov Airlines, which took off from Domodedovo airport at 14:24 Moscow time on Sunday, was lost four minutes after taking off.
Fragments of the plane were found near the village of Stepanovskoye in the Moscow Region’s Ramensky district. There were 65 passengers and six crew members on board. According to the latest data, no one has survived.
A criminal case on charges of violations of flight safety and aircraft operation rules entailing the death of two or more people through negligence has been opened.




More:
http://tass.com/world/989833

[Elessar]

Totally sucks, Balu.

God, or the Creator, rest those souls.

[Balu]

Totally sucks, Balu.

God, or the Creator, rest those souls.

If it is so, it is a great pity as Captain had over 5,000 hours and co-pilot had over 800 and this procedure is in a check-list of any aircraft.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Forgot to turn the heat on in the Pitot Static probe. The plane didn't know how fast it was going.

[Balu]

Forgot to turn the heat on in the Pitot Static probe. The plane didn't know how fast it was going.
And another moment - the craft was in clouds, thus there were no visual reference points which could clarify the situation.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

And another moment - the craft was in clouds, thus there were no visual reference points which could clarify the situation.
That's what the SAI is for... (situation attitude indicator.)

https://sandia.aero/product/sai-340-quattro/

I worked on instruments and flight controls in the Air Force.

[Balu]

That's what the SAI is for... (situation attitude indicator.)

https://sandia.aero/product/sai-340-quattro/

I worked on instruments and flight controls in the Air Force.

This is the instrument panel of An-148. And data to the instrument comes from the sensor that is frozen. So, if it reads "0" in clouds it is difficult to pilot properly without visual reference points.

https://www.avianews.com/airlines/planes/antonov_an148/kabina.jpg

[High_Plains_Drifter]

This is the instrument panel of An-148. And data to the instrument comes from the sensor that is frozen. So, if it reads "0" in clouds it is difficult to pilot properly without visual reference points.

https://www.avianews.com/airlines/planes/antonov_an148/kabina.jpg
I understand that... that was my point... :laugh: