Navy files homicide charges against commanders of 2 ships in deadly crashes

[Gunny]

Two Navy commanders face negligent homicide charges related to the deadly crashes of two ships off Asia last year, the Navy announced (http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=104024&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_content=100000129677251&utm_campaign=AdvInc) Tuesday.
Former Cmdr. Bryce Benson of the USS Fitzgerald and former Cmdr. Alfredo J. Sanchez of the USS John S. McCain are among those charged, according to USNI News (https://news.usni.org/2018/01/16/former-fitzgerald-mccain-cos-face-negligent-homicide-dereliction-duty-charges-fatal-collisions). Additionally, two lieutenants and one lieutenant junior grade of the Fitzgerald also face charges, the Navy said.
Among the charges are dereliction of duty, hazarding a vessel and negligent homicide.
A Chief Petty Officer on the McCain also was charged with dereliction of duty. And administrative actions -- including non-judicial punishment -- will be taken for members of both crews, the Navy said.

cont ... http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/01/16/navy-files-homicide-charges-against-commanders-2-ships-in-deadly-crashes.htmlI'll let the Navy guys comment on this since I just was along for the ride.

Not to make light (but I'm going to) I can't help but notice one of the ships was the USS John McCain. Looks like his name doesn't limit itself to trainwrecks in Congress.

[aboutime]

This is how the navy handles their own CYA. The lack of training quals before the ships were deployed...came from Washington, in the Pentagon. They blamed finances at first.

Truth is. During the Obama administration. When he was busy firing Flag Officers (over 500). The navy, and the other branches began to suffer like they did during the CLINTON years, when cutbacks, and Downsizing were the craze. I know, and you should too Gunny.

The first things that suffer are training. Then the complacency of all the people who loved Obama's idea of Political Correctness...taking away the Discipline, and trading it for BEING FRIENDS who don't Offend, or Insult those Snowflake Sailors who didn't know...THEY WERE GONNA HAVE TO WORK, or GO TO SEA, and SWAB FLOORS since the maid, and the butler (Mom and Dad) didn't make them do it at home.

I blame it all on OBAMA and CONGRESS for shortchanging the military to support The Enemy.

[Gunny]

This is how the navy handles their own CYA. The lack of training quals before the ships were deployed...came from Washington, in the Pentagon. They blamed finances at first.

Truth is. During the Obama administration. When he was busy firing Flag Officers (over 500). The navy, and the other branches began to suffer like they did during the CLINTON years, when cutbacks, and Downsizing were the craze. I know, and you should too Gunny.

The first things that suffer are training. Then the complacency of all the people who loved Obama's idea of Political Correctness...taking away the Discipline, and trading it for BEING FRIENDS who don't Offend, or Insult those Snowflake Sailors who didn't know...THEY WERE GONNA HAVE TO WORK, or GO TO SEA, and SWAB FLOORS since the maid, and the butler (Mom and Dad) didn't make them do it at home.

I blame it all on OBAMA and CONGRESS for shortchanging the military to support The Enemy.I DEFINITELY remember the impact Clinton had on us. Manpower shortage plus increased OpTempo noticeably changed our time between deployable unit. It went from maybe a few years break between them to negligible.

I recall on one deployment we had 4 Harriers and at any one time 4 were operational. Two spent the float in the hangar deck. The cutback in training was to shift the funds to actual operations. And yeah, a LOT more mistakes.

[Elessar]

I DEFINITELY remember the impact Clinton had on us. Manpower shortage plus increased OpTempo noticeably changed our time between deployable unit. It went from maybe a few years break between them to negligible.

I recall on one deployment we had 4 Harriers and at any one time 4 were operational. Two spent the float in the hangar deck. The cutback in training was to shift the funds to actual operations. And yeah, a LOT more mistakes.

We had to put up with substandard ships and aircraft, yet still fill our mission.

Clinton was in the ROTC but never took his uniform out of the closet.

Obama just as bad. Fund the CG down, but keep up the optempo.

Homicide carges ...just does not sound right though.

Neglect and Courts-Martial and loss of all benefits. Homicide?

How about the whole watch team? Don't give me that shit. As a BMOW
I supervised a whole watch team. CO is not going to be on the bridge 24/7.
Ultimatly his responsibility, but I put it on the OOD and BMOW.

[darin]

Going after the Big Boss for something he likely was asleep during - that doesn't sit right with me. It's problematic. The Watch Team fucked up, probably more complicated than that, but generally that's what i think happened.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Bottom line... ships shouldn't collide... somebody isn't doing their job... somebody's head should roll, and with the military, it's usually the man in charge.

It is almost treasonous the way the kenyan shit stain fired top military brass, but then we had a democrat propaganda wing that did nothing but kiss his ass for 8 years.

I'm still waiting for some enterprising individual to go to Hawaii and prove there is NO hard copy certificate of birth there. I don't know why president Trump doesn't send the secret service there with warrant in hand to see it. The fuckin left wants a scandal? Where there's the biggest scandal to ever hit the nation since it's inception.

[darin]

Bottom line... ships shouldn't collide... somebody isn't doing their job... somebody's head should roll, and with the military, it's usually the man in charge.



Right - Commander is the safety officer, training officer, and all that - Yes, he or she is responsible to ensure properly-trained Sailors and Marines and Soldiers and Airmen. But if the Commander - who cannot pick his/her staff - is asleep, because they have to sleep - and the driver hits something...its not criminal neglect on teh commander's part. We're talking Charges of Murder.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Right - Commander is the safety officer, training officer, and all that - Yes, he or she is responsible to ensure properly-trained Sailors and Marines and Soldiers and Airmen. But if the Commander - who cannot pick his/her staff - is asleep, because they have to sleep - and the driver hits something...its not criminal neglect on teh commander's part. We're talking Charges of Murder.
Yeah that's true.

After we got F-16's at Nellis AFB, we lost a lot of our top enlisted stripes in our shop. I found myself later as a Buck Sergeant as the NCOIC. So one night one of our moron troops, and this guy was a moron, I had already written him up for 35-10 a couple times, patches not sewn on correct, sweat stains under his arm pits on his uniform, boots not shined, (and I hated GI's that didn't keep with strict 35-10), etc, don't know how this jackass got through basic, but he went out one night and applied 3,000psi of hydraulic pressure to an air craft when there was a red X in the forms that said DON'T, and sprayed a geyser of hydraulic fluid a hundred feet in the air and all over adjacent air craft. Well first thing I knew when I got to the base the next day I had to report to the first shirts office. "I" was in trouble for allowing such a MORON on the flight line. As it turned out though I had a pretty good relationship with the first shirt who was a cross over from the Marines and he knew this guy was a FUCK UP. He asked me what I wanted to do with this person and I said, he has no place in the Air Force sarge. The first shirt agreed and the dude was discharged just like that.

[aboutime]

Right - Commander is the safety officer, training officer, and all that - Yes, he or she is responsible to ensure properly-trained Sailors and Marines and Soldiers and Airmen. But if the Commander - who cannot pick his/her staff - is asleep, because they have to sleep - and the driver hits something...its not criminal neglect on teh commander's part. We're talking Charges of Murder.

darin. The rules are totally different on a navy ship. Not a plane, not in a tank, but a ship at sea.
The Commanding Officer is TOTALLY responsible for everything that takes place 24/7 on a ship.
The crew of officers, and enlisted follow the COMMANDING OFFICER'S orders. Nobody else's.

The C.O. of a ship is as powerful as the President of the United States. Any accident that takes place, such as a collision at sea is ULTIMATELY...the C.O.'s fault. Poor training, or the lack of training is the C.O.'s fault. If the crew members on the bridge fail to do their jobs correctly for the safety of the ship, and the crew. That is the responsibility of the Commanding Officer as well.
Yes. He/She has to sleep. But while sleeping. He must put his total trust in the training of the officers, and crew 100%, all the time. If they screw up. HE GETS MOVED FROM THE SHIP. Loses his command. Not the crew.
At sea. The C.O. can't call on somebody in the Pentagon, or a Fire Department to handle emergencies on the ship. When you are thousands of miles into the middle of the Oceans. YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN. So, the C.O. IS responsible for any deaths caused by complacency or failures of the crew. PERIOD

[Gunny]

darin. The rules are totally different on a navy ship. Not a plane, not in a tank, but a ship at sea.
The Commanding Officer is TOTALLY responsible for everything that takes place 24/7 on a ship.
The crew of officers, and enlisted follow the COMMANDING OFFICER'S orders. Nobody else's.

The C.O. of a ship is as powerful as the President of the United States. Any accident that takes place, such as a collision at sea is ULTIMATELY...the C.O.'s fault. Poor training, or the lack of training is the C.O.'s fault. If the crew members on the bridge fail to do their jobs correctly for the safety of the ship, and the crew. That is the responsibility of the Commanding Officer as well.
Yes. He/She has to sleep. But while sleeping. He must put his total trust in the training of the officers, and crew 100%, all the time. If they screw up. HE GETS MOVED FROM THE SHIP. Loses his command. Not the crew.
At sea. The C.O. can't call on somebody in the Pentagon, or a Fire Department to handle emergencies on the ship. When you are thousands of miles into the middle of the Oceans. YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN. So, the C.O. IS responsible for any deaths caused by complacency or failures of the crew. PERIODDefinitely a different world. There's no appeal for NJP at sea. The Captain's word is issue resolved.

[pete311]

Pretty insane the navy doesn't have people that can steer ships.

[aboutime]

Pretty insane the navy doesn't have people that can steer ships.


No petey. It's only insane that you lowered yourself to say such a stupid thing.

[Gunny]

That WAS dumb.

[pete311]

No petey. It's only insane that you lowered yourself to say such a stupid thing.

please explain the multiple crashes that killed people then

[aboutime]

please explain the multiple crashes that killed people then



Not gonna play your game. YOU tell us about the multiple crashes, since you are smarter than all of us. If you can't handle being told the TRUTH. That's your problem.
How bout you telling us about all of the automobile accidents that happen every day. Want to explain how all of those happened too?

[Gunny]

please explain the multiple crashes that killed people thenDid you read the thread? I don't think we were speaking above your level.

When a President who could care less about the military because he's off on his own program, such as Carter, Clinton and Obama ... the first place they look for money is the military. The military divides its funds. They present a budget to the Service Secretaries who in turn present it to the President. The budget is divided into categories for each service. In the Marines it's green (Marine) and blue (Navy). The latter being funding for those Marines assigned to Naval vessels.

The President determines for the most part our military obligations world-wide. So when he's stealing our money in terms of materiel and manpower, yet sending more troops to wherever, he is decreasing our strength while increasing our OpTempO (missions). Meaning you get less to do more with. With that "less" you have to meet all the operational commitments meant for more manpower. Fatigue alone decreases the efficiency of the force. That's fatigue to both manpower and materiel. Shortcuts get taken to keep things moving. The first thing that goes is training. The manpower is too busy working to train, The money is not there to buy the necessary materiel to train. Your choice is man the force or train the men. If your men re in training, they aren't meeting operation commitments. In the military, there are no places or people to bitch to.

So, you end up with a pilot steering a ship who has had half his training, has less hours at the helm, the watch is short due to a lack of personnel, and you're just asking for it.

We've got 8 years worth of neglect floating and flying around out there. Frankly, I'm surprised there hasn't been more accidents. That just goes to show you that you can give us shit to work with and we'll make the damned thing go. But your rulebook was used for TP in order to do so.

[darin]

darin. The rules are totally different on a navy ship. Not a plane, not in a tank, but a ship at sea.
The Commanding Officer is TOTALLY responsible for everything that takes place 24/7 on a ship.
The crew of officers, and enlisted follow the COMMANDING OFFICER'S orders. Nobody else's.

The C.O. of a ship is as powerful as the President of the United States. Any accident that takes place, such as a collision at sea is ULTIMATELY...the C.O.'s fault. Poor training, or the lack of training is the C.O.'s fault. If the crew members on the bridge fail to do their jobs correctly for the safety of the ship, and the crew. That is the responsibility of the Commanding Officer as well.
Yes. He/She has to sleep. But while sleeping. He must put his total trust in the training of the officers, and crew 100%, all the time. If they screw up. HE GETS MOVED FROM THE SHIP. Loses his command. Not the crew.
At sea. The C.O. can't call on somebody in the Pentagon, or a Fire Department to handle emergencies on the ship. When you are thousands of miles into the middle of the Oceans. YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN. So, the C.O. IS responsible for any deaths caused by complacency or failures of the crew. PERIOD

And that is stupid. It's stupid to bring criminal charges against a leader because his staff crashed a boat as he slept. The bad situational judgment is a leadership issue - yep. but CRIMINAL charges. That's beyond the pale.

[Gunny]

And that is stupid. It's stupid to bring criminal charges against a leader because his staff crashed a boat as he slept. The bad situational judgment is a leadership issue - yep. but CRIMINAL charges. That's beyond the pale.The MSM needs a body to present to the American and international public. Seaman Johnny won't do. Not big enough to be a legal catch. They need to have some brass to sate their bloodlust.

[aboutime]

And that is stupid. It's stupid to bring criminal charges against a leader because his staff crashed a boat as he slept. The bad situational judgment is a leadership issue - yep. but CRIMINAL charges. That's beyond the pale.


darin. I know it sounds stupid. But that's the way the Navy handles Commands at sea.

When billions of dollars worth of American Taxpayer Dollars are in jeopardy, and the lives of hundreds of American sailors are only feet away from death...ALL THE TIME. It takes extreme actions to help prevent such things from happening because SOMEBODY didn't do their job, or fell asleep on watch.
Driving a warship isn't an easy task. It's not like there's a steering wheel, gearshift, and a horn with brakes that stop a vessel instantly. The Commanding Officer is the ULTIMATE person in charge. Anything, and everything that happens on his/her ship...is HIS/HER responsibility. Responsibility the NAVY trusted him/her to accept FULLY.

[Elessar]

please explain the multiple crashes that killed people then

Ignorant.

Have you ever piloted a ship at sea? I have.

Have you ever been in charge of a crew on a SAR boat? I have.

I agree with the other Vets. The CO is ultimately in charge, but
homicide charges are WRONG. The whole Watch Section should answer to
neglect of duty, not just the CO. I releived watch standers for being neglectful,
and if it was an officer went straight to the XO.

[Gunny]

Ignorant.

Have you ever piloted a ship at sea? I have.

Have you ever been in charge of a crew on a SAR boat? I have.

I agree with the other Vets. The CO is ultimately in charge, but
homicide charges are WRONG. The whole Watch Section should answer to
neglect of duty, not just the CO. I releived watch standers for being neglectful,
and if it was an officer went straight to the XO.I've been scooped out of the sea by a SAR bird before. That count?:laugh:

[aboutime]

Ignorant.

Have you ever piloted a ship at sea? I have.

Have you ever been in charge of a crew on a SAR boat? I have.

I agree with the other Vets. The CO is ultimately in charge, but
homicide charges are WRONG. The whole Watch Section should answer to
neglect of duty, not just the CO. I releived watch standers for being neglectful,
and if it was an officer went straight to the XO.


Elessar. Matter of fact, yes I have. I even stood 8 hours as OOD underway to get my Surface Warfare Qualifications. They were 8 of the scariest hours I will never forget. Being responsible for over 300 other in the crew, and about 500 Marines who were also aboard for the float/cruise.
I tend to agree about the homicide charges; yet the Navy and the JAG follow different rules for Commanding Officers in the Navy, for obvious reasons.
I do believe the entire group of Bridge Watch standers on both ships should also be held accountable for the deaths of their shipmates. BUT....as I have said before. The C.O. is the ultimate man/woman in charge of a ship. C.O.'s are as powerful as the President.
Look at it this way. NUKE SUBS, and their C.O.'s have the power to institute the orders of the President in every case. If they fail to follow orders...they are relieved of duty FORTHWITH.

By the way. Had anything happened to the ship while I was OOD. Both I, and the Captain would have lost everything.

[Elessar]

I've been scooped out of the sea by a SAR bird before. That count?:laugh:

Yeah it does you hard-head Jar-head!

[Elessar]

Elessar. Matter of fact, yes I have.

Look at it this way. NUKE SUBS, and their C.O.'s have the power to institute the orders of the President in every case. If they fail to follow orders...they are relieved of duty FORTHWITH.

By the way. Had anything happened to the ship while I was OOD. Both I, and the Captain would have lost everything.

CO's do by virtue of Command, and ulitmately on their shoulders. But that does not
excuse a whole watch section for idioitc negelgence. BMOW, I would have releived them all.

[Gunny]

Yeah it does you hard-head Jar-head!Was just a training exercise and they asked for volunteers IF you were HEEDS qualified which I was. Usually I was one of the aggressors on exercises. I got to play victim that time. Volunteering isn't my style but the SAR pilot was H-O-T hot. Never being one to let a shipmate down ...:laugh2:

So I got beat up all afternoon by people with lower swim quals than mine "saving" me. Beat the Hell out of sitting through a class on the ship. :)

[Funky Winkerbean]

Those homicidal captains were probably hired during the Obama Era for their diversity and not their maritime prowess, that's my wager. They're either minorities or homosexuals. Or as Dirty Harry would say "fashionable". I hope they're found guilty and keel hauled.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Bottom line... ships shouldn't collide... somebody isn't doing their job... somebody's head should roll, and with the military, it's usually the man in charge.

It is almost treasonous the way the kenyan shit stain fired top military brass, but then we had a democrat propaganda wing that did nothing but kiss his ass for 8 years.

I'm still waiting for some enterprising individual to go to Hawaii and prove there is NO hard copy certificate of birth there. I don't know why president Trump doesn't send the secret service there with warrant in hand to see it. The fuckin left wants a scandal? Where there's the biggest scandal to ever hit the nation since it's inception.


It is almost treasonous the way the kenyan shit stain fired top military brass,

I politely disagree my friend-- it is treasonous(!!!), not almost..
Yet the maggot will never face justice for his open treason and that points to the reality that we are very likely in the last stages of our independence--remember even the mighty and invincible ROMAN EMPIRE FELL- DUE TO DECAY FROM WITHIN.
And the glaring truth is ,that decay in our case has a name, Democratic Party.
Their party platform endorses and promotes Socialism(they pretty much, do not even try to hide it now, except at voting time), --which is an avowed enemy of this Constitutionally based Representative Republic..---Tyr

[Elessar]

Those homicidal captains were probably hired during the Obama Era for their diversity and not their maritime prowess, that's my wager. They're either minorities or homosexuals. Or as Dirty Harry would say "fashionable". I hope they're found guilty and keel hauled.

Who here has said homicial?

I say a negetful watch team.

[Elessar]

Was just a training exercise and they asked for volunteers IF you were HEEDS qualified which I was. Usually I was one of the aggressors on exercises. I got to play victim that time. Volunteering isn't my style but the SAR pilot was H-O-T hot. Never being one to let a shipmate down ...:laugh2:

So I got beat up all afternoon by people with lower swim quals than mine "saving" me. Beat the Hell out of sitting through a class on the ship. :)

Shit. I was a 'victim' all the time because of my training and experience, so I hear you!

[Black Diamond]

Shit. I was a 'victim' all the time because of my training and experience, so I hear you!
Buddy of mine is retired coast guard. He said he thought the boot camp would be easy. He was .... Surprised

[Elessar]

Buddy of mine is retired coast guard. He said he thought the boot camp would be easy. He was .... Surprised

Boot camp for me was easy, but I was just out of college football and track. Undefeated in
wrestling and swimming.

Water Safety Instructor (Red Cross and BSA).

Boot camp was a breeze.

[Gunny]

Boot camp for me was easy, but I was just out of college football and track. Undefeated in
wrestling and swimming.

Water Safety Instructor (Red Cross and BSA).

Boot camp was a breeze.Well, not exactly boot camp, but swim qual as doubly hard for me. I was one of "those guys" that had been in the water all my life and could stay in it all day and could swim like a fish.

However, "swim like a fish" is NOT the approved, perfect strokes for the Red Cross nor the Marine Corps :laugh:. I had to learn every stroke over and do each :laugh:est twice. Was in the swim tank about 13 hours because I refused to quit even with Hats yelling at me to quit. I was like "FU" (under my breath, of course:laugh:)

[Elessar]

Well, not exactly boot camp, but swim qual as doubly hard for me. I was one of "those guys" that had been in the water all my life and could stay in it all day and could swim like a fish.

However, "swim like a fish" is NOT the approved, perfect strokes for the Red Cross nor the Marine Corps :laugh:. I had to learn every stroke over and do each :laugh:est twice. Was in the swim tank about 13 hours because I refused to quit even with Hats yelling at me to quit. I was like "FU" (under my breath, of course:laugh:)

You are a delightful goof!:laugh:

I personally pulled out 427 as just a lifeguard. Count it up to 1250 lives saved in the USCG.

[Funky Winkerbean]

Who here has said homicial?

I say a neglectful watch team.

I was just piling on with the charge of "homicide" which is probably an unfair assessment, my blaming Obama was unproductive. Those men are entitled to a fair trial, there may be some explanation, or it may be criminally negligence. The sea lanes are jammed these days and those two ships were in some of the busiest waters on the planet, I really feel for them. But if they're "fashionable" types who were screwing off, okay, then they should be keel hauled.

I just think it's amazing in this day and age of GPS and radar, the very idea that ships still collide, it boggles the mind. No way are we ready for driverless cars.

[Gunny]

You are a delightful goof!:laugh:

I personally pulled out 427 as just a lifeguard. Count it up to 1250 lives saved in the USCG.Ummm ..."saving: lives was not exactly MY MOS :)

I am Water Survival Qualified. We had to learn the lifeguard stuff for 1st Class along with some added Marine combat stuff. WSQ was just survival.

I had my lifesaving crap since a Boy Scout merit badge.

All to say people who spend their lives around water should learn to survive in and NOT freakin panic. I'll bet panic kills more people than water. Same principle applies to desert survival. The desert will kill you IF you let it.