Vegas Shooting - 50+ Dead, 500+ injured

[darin]

God this is awful.

http://abc7.com/1-shooter-down;-2-victims-killed-24-injured-in-las-vegas-shooting/2477628/

[Kathianne]

Just woke up and saw this. Does not sound like ISIS.

[Kathianne]

Shockingly, so far in the few minutes I've been watching and reading, there's little speculation on motive. He was a local, retired. He is dead. Lived with an Oriental woman, who is now in custody too. They were using her platinum gold card. Weapons were recovered.

Lots of military and retired vets at the event. Also lots of firefighters. Both groups were moving rapidly to get bodies and wounded out of line of fire and treated wounded.

He was on 32nd floor, opened fire at the end of outdoor country concert. Reports are now saying that many of the killed were head shots.

Just doesn't make sense.

Over 50 dead, over 200 wounded.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/active-shooter-situation-las-vegas-police-060406234--abc-news-topstories.html

New link-- states 50 dead over 200 injured.. -Tyr

[Kathianne]

FOX is reporting that the shooter had a great deal of weapons and had barricaded the door. This guy seems to have had a mission. While it didn't take long for the police to breach the door, the motive for such carnage is definitely of interest.

[CSM]

What a tragedy... there are no words.

So many questions too.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

30,000 some people at the concert, packed in like sardines, going to be like shooting fish in a barrel, and most wounds will be head wounds simply because a bullet is going to hit someone's head before continuing on to someone's torso, not because the shooter was a good shot.

But my God, I'm glad I don't live there anymore. I feel so sorry for those people. I'm starting to wonder, why would someone shoot up a "country" music festival, or is that irrelevant?

[CSM]

From the video I saw posted on FB there are at least two automatic weapons (definitely not belt fed "machine guns"). From the rate of fire, sounded like the weapons were magazine fed (probably 20 to 30 round magazines); reload time indicates there were many pre-loaded magazines on hand. Definitely premeditated. Had to have been planned and prepped well in advance.

I cannot imagine the mindset that plans the murder/execution of unarmed, innocent civilians like this.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Could have been using 100 round drum magazines...

[Kathianne]

The more I listen to this, the more it sounds like a Columbine type attack. The shooters feel justified, whether because of bullying or because of delusions of glory in death. What's not making sense is the age of the shooter-64.

[CSM]

Could have been using 100 round drum magazines...

Possible but I don't think so. You are correct about the head shots I think. From that high an elevation, I would think most hits would be head and upper torso.

I will be skeptical of media reports (at least the initial ones) and wait until they release the weapon type, etc. I do know that it is extremely difficult to obtain fully automatic weapons. Someone was a very good gunsmith and modified semi-automatic weapons OR got them on the black market.

Again, I cannot fathom the "why".

[High_Plains_Drifter]

The more I listen to this, the more it sounds like a Columbine type attack. The shooters feel justified, whether because of bullying or because of delusions of glory in death. What's not making sense is the age of the shooter-64.
I agree... so far nothing is adding up to why this person would do this. I mean OBVIOUSLY this person is NUTS, but the age, the venue, the door was barricaded, had a fully automatic weapon, probably illegally, can't really put your finger on any one thing yet what was going on with this person...

[Kathianne]

It seems that it was very lucky that there were so many military trained and firefighters. Audio from phones being played and it is clear that these people had emergency training. They were telling people to take their shirts off to make tourniquets, apply pressure, and to use their vehicles to transport wounded to hospitals-'Don't wait for ambulances, go, go, go!'

[CSM]

I agree... so far nothing is adding up to why this person would do this. I mean OBVIOUSLY this person is NUTS, but the age, the venue, the door was barricaded, had a fully automatic weapon, probably illegally, can't really put your finger on any one thing yet what was going on with this person...

Yeah, a lot more to the story than we know at the moment. Initially I though "crazy person" but the more I think about the deliberate planning and prep required, it wasn't just one crazy man. Methodical, knowledgeable and fairly well trained. Had to be more than just the shooter and his girlfriend involved.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Judging by the cycle rate, it sounds like an AK-47. I don't know if anyone here has seen these, they're called a "slide fire," or a "bump fire," and they're legal. I could put one on my AK. Match that with a 100 round drum magazine that anyone can buy at a gun show and you've got a lot of fire power...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwvO_DKJHf0

[Kathianne]

Paddock was not known to federal authorities, but was known to local police authorities. I think we'll know more about his 'reasoning' in the next few hours.

[Kathianne]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/las-vegas-shooting-suspect-stephen-paddock/story?id=50225619


...

Stephen Paddock, 64, is the man suspected of opening fire from the Mandalay Bay Resort and Casino in Las Vegas Sunday night, killing more than 50 people and injuring more than 200 in what is now believed to be the worst mass shooting in US history, police said today.


Police responded to the scene Sunday night and breached the door to the suspect's room on the 32nd floor. He is now dead. Officials said they did not believe there were any more shooters. Police said "numerous firearms" were found in Paddock's hotel room at Mandalay Bay.


The alleged gunman was believed to be a local resident, police said, and the motive was unclear. Paddock appears to have worked as an accountant or auditor. He was also a licensed hunter and private pilot.


Officers have also responded to the suspect's home where police said a search warrant will be executed.

...

There's also a report that the 'companion' had worked at Mandalay Bay at some point.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Guy had EIGHT guns and a shooting platform set up, and had cameras so he could see the police coming. This was thought out well in advance.

[Kathianne]

This report has the same info on shooter as the above ABC report. Here's what they have on the companion, which seems to add credence to the report she may have worked at Mandalay Bay:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/02/stephen-paddock-mandalay-bay-attacker-motive/


...

Who is Marilou Danley?

Police said Danley, 62, lived with Paddock in Mesquite. She is reportedly an Australian citizen.


According to The Australian newspaper, Danley, who has been located by police, is an Australian passport holder and may be of Indonesian descent.


However, authorities in Australia have not yet confirmed that she is Australian.


Public records show she lived at the same address as Paddock since January 2017. A LinkedIn account for a Marilou Danley, of Reno, Nevada, describes herself as a gambling and casinos professional.


Sheriff Lombardo said: "She is an Asian female, approximately 4ft 11in, weight of 111lbs."


Authorities have not suggested she played a role in the shooting. They have also not said if she was seen with the suspect at the Mandalay Bay hotel or elsewhere prior to the shooting.


Marilou Danley’s Facebook profile said: "Proud mom and grandma who lives life to the fullest.”

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Person claims they were WARNED "you're all going to die"...

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/861252/Las-Vegas-shooting-latest-news-Mandalay-Bay-Route-91-Marilou-Danley

[Kathianne]

Person claims they were WARNED "everyone was going to die"...

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/861252/Las-Vegas-shooting-latest-news-Mandalay-Bay-Route-91-Marilou-Danley

I saw that on Twitter about 45 minutes ago. I'd take that with a grain of salt. Could be true, but I'll wait.

[Kathianne]

Police said Paddock was dead when they entered the room.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I saw that on Twitter about 45 minutes ago. I'd take that with a grain of salt. Could be true, but I'll wait.
It would surely indicate that more than just the shooter knew about his plans, if it's true. I'm kinda thinking it is because the girl in the video doesn't look like she's lying. I don't think anyone would be lying at that instant on camera to a reporter. I'm sure they'll be trying to hunt the woman down.

[Kathianne]

Brother says, 'He snapped.' Sorry, with this sort of planning, 'snapped' doesn't work for me.

[CSM]

Brother says, 'He snapped.' Sorry, with this sort of planning, 'snapped' doesn't work for me.

Nope. Sure wasn't "spur of the moment".

[Kathianne]

Sheriff at press conference said the shooter was using the woman's cards, 'they believe her' and she doesn't appear to have had anything to do with this.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

TEN rifles found in room... shooter had been in room since the 28th... ya, I agree with Kathey, "snapped" ain't cuttin' it. This guy flat out intended to, for whatever insane reason, wanted to kill LOTS of people... I don't get it.

[Kathianne]

The number taken by ambulances to hospitals is over 400 now. That's not including any taken by private vehicles.

[pete311]

Politics totally aside, this shit just makes me want to fucking cry.

[CSM]

Politics totally aside, this shit just makes me want to fucking cry.

It won't be long before "the politics" start....you can bet on that

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I'm just getting the impression myself that "politics" has nothing to do with this person's motivation. His brother says he "snapped," but that doesn't cut it. He planned this shooting for days, maybe weeks, and I think something happened that he just felt he had a score to settle... and went insane.

[CSM]

I'm just getting the impression myself that "politics" has nothing to do with this person's motivation. His brother says he "snapped," but that doesn't cut it. He planned this shooting for days, maybe weeks, and I think something happened that he just felt he had a score to settle... and went insane.

Given that the rooms were booked up at MB well ahead of time, the guy was planning this for more than a few weeks. If he snapped, it was months ago.

[mundame]

I'm starting to wonder, why would someone shoot up a "country" music festival, or is that irrelevant?

Perhaps he's a leftist, but he lived nearby-- could be that simple.

The new fashion in terrorism and psychosis is to hit music concerts. Preplanned, lot of notice, loud music to cover fire, people packed in, so target-rich. Other events are like that: basketball games, political rallies, public meetings. We'll be avoiding crowds.

[jimnyc]

So who will the media and some politicians "blame" this on, outside of where the blame squarely lies, on this scumbag and anyone who may have helped him.

Some crazy shit. And before any of them, or anyone here, starts in with the gun shit - if this guy didn't plan it that way, then he plans with a bomb, and if not he then runs through a crowd with a massive truck and kills the same. If these fucked up individuals want to kill, they will find a method.

I listened to that and watched a bunch of videos, that's some scary shit. Most didn't even realize it was a gun at first, until the singer ran as fast as he could off of the stage, then I think a few started catching on. Then shit got crazy. But man, this guy shot an awful lot of rounds and kept reloading.

A shame, SO many innocent folks, just chillin and listening to some music. :(

[jimnyc]

I am listening to Trump's response to the nation. Wow, he's being very uniting, very solemn. He's bringing up God and citing scripture (that'll get him smacked). Listening/watching as I type. He's praying for the souls, families and nation.

"thank you, and God bless America" and then just left the podium.

[pete311]

Cavemen brains with 21st century weapons

[gabosaurus]

Read more:

https://www.reviewjournal.com/

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/

[gabosaurus]

Of course, there is this: :rolleyes:


The Islamic State group claimed responsibility for the mass shooting in Las Vegas without naming the shooter or providing any evidence to support the claim.

IS has previously claimed responsibility for attacks by individuals with no known links to the group.

[Black Diamond]

I am listening to Trump's response to the nation. Wow, he's being very uniting, very solemn. He's bringing up God and citing scripture (that'll get him smacked). Listening/watching as I type. He's praying for the souls, families and nation.

"thank you, and God bless America" and then just left the podium.
Be home in a couple hours to watch it.

[jimnyc]

Now it's up to 58 dead and over 500 injured :( :(

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Of course, there is this: :rolleyes:

I saw in another article that the woman he was with is from Indonesia-- and pray tell what is the main religion in Indonesia?
Islam...
Of course media and the usual suspects wil right off claim there is no link to Islam--as they have done before only later the truth comes out the link existed.
Time will tell if this is related to the ever so kindhearted, gentle and peaceful Islamic cult!!-Tyr

[jimnyc]

Here is Trump responding:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuFLcx76ae0

[mundame]

I saw in another article that the woman he was with is from Indonesia-- and pray tell what is the main religion in Indonesia?
Islam...


I do want to know more about that woman with the unlikely American name. And where is she now? And why was she photographed in Dubai? It did look like her. Very smokey.

[hjmick]

A friend of mine and his wife were at the show last night.

Luckily they are both fine.

[jimnyc]

A friend of mine and his wife were at the show last night.

Luckily they are both fine.

That's good to hear, HJ. Amazing, you never know when a loved one or friend is involved in something like this.

[Kathianne]

Strange things with this shooter. He was rich, mostly from real estate. He currently lived by gambling according to his neighbors. ISIS has taken credit, though there's nothing so far that leads one to think this is terrorism in that way. 64 years old, none of this really adds up.

[Gunny]

Strange things with this shooter. He was rich, mostly from real estate. He currently lived by gambling according to his neighbors. ISIS has taken credit, though there's nothing so far that leads one to think this is terrorism in that way. 64 years old, none of this really adds up.Therein lies the problem. My question: Why? WHAT would possess someone to do such a thing?


We will probably never get an answer unless this guy has left a note behind or something.

[Kathianne]

Paddock had 2 private planes and though he didn't spend time with his father, the father was a bank robber. I actually saw the info on NYT, but now it's all over Twitter. He was retired as an accountant from Lockheed-Martin:



https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2017/10/02/wtaf-brother-says-las-vegas-shooter-was-multi-millionaire-real-estate-investor/

[Kathianne]

59 dead. Over 500 wounded.

More firearms, explosives, thousands of rounds of ammo, and electronic devices recovered in Mesquite. They are getting ready for SWAT to enter his home in Northern Nevada.

None of this is normal, even by the weirdness of psychotic killers.

[Kathianne]

I'm sure there are at least 59 stories to be told, but this one made me so sad. Going on just about 1 year married, husband dies shielding wife from gunfire:

http://www.parispi.net/news/local_news/article_5d031ffe-a782-11e7-b809-73aed9dac75e.html#utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social


PARIS TN: Big Sandy resident killed in Vegas, best friend saysOct 2, 2017

Big Sandy resident Sonny Melton was one of more than 50 people killed Sunday night at a concert in Las Vegas, according to his best friend, Jeremy Butler of Camden.


Butler confirmed social media reports of Melton’s death there.


He said Melton was shielding his wife, local orthopedic surgeon Heather Gulish Melton, from the gunfire when he was fatally shot.


His parents, James and Susan Melton of Big Sandy, are flying this morning to Las Vegas, Butler said.


Sonny and Heather Melton have lived in Big Sandy since getting married about a year ago and were building a house on Kentucky Lake, Butler said.


“He’s been my best friend since I was three,” Butler said. “His mom is like a second mother to me.”


Melton worked as a registered nurse at Henry County Medical Center. In a statement released late Monday morning, a hospital spokesman said the entire hospital was deeply saddened by the tragedy.


“The thoughts and prayers of the entire HCMC family are with Sonny and Heather’s families,” said Tom Gee, CEO at Henry County Medical Center. “We ask that all staff, friends and patients of the couple respect their privacy at this time and refrain from contacting the family and the HCMC Kelley Clinic if they do not have a reason to do so.”


The hospital said counselors were being made available for staff members.


Anyone with appointments with Dr. Melton will be contacted by the office if rescheduling is necessary, the statement said, and asked patients not contact the clinic until hearing from office staff.


“This event is a traumatic life experience for those there and those that are a part of the HCMC caring community,” said spokesman Tory Daughrity. “If you are struggling to understand this event or other types of losses, HCMC has staff available at Lake Haven Behavioral Center. HCMC will be offering information and mental health tips to our partners, families and our community throughout this month as we all begin to cope with this tragedy.”

[Kathianne]

Watching the news conference by Sheriff in NV. Weirdest thing so far:

Reporter, 'There's reports the shooter was an employee of a Federal agency, is this true?'

Sheriff: 'We're checking this out, I cannot confirm nor deny.'

[Drummond]

It won't be long before "the politics" start....you can bet on that

It already has, over here. The BBC is reporting on this ... it's their lead story, too, on our domestic BBC News channel ... and the 'coverage' there seems to be around 75 percent on the shooting and news about it, with 25 percent on 'the need for strict gun laws' ...

... same old, same old, from the BBC. That the British press will fixate on availability of guns in the US is a 'given', each and every single time anything at all like this happens.

[Kathianne]

Really good news is that people in NV have turned out to give blood, many waiting over 8 hours to donate.

[Kathianne]

ISIS is doubling down on claiming he was Muslim convert, they give his name in Islam.

Also it seems, the 'girl friend' is being investigated. They expect she'll be returning to the US, though is being questioned by legal attaches wherever she is. (Tokyo is the latest. I've also heard Philippines and Indonesia.)

[hjmick]

It already has, over here. The BBC is reporting on this ... it's their lead story, too, on our domestic BBC News channel ... and the 'coverage' there seems to be around 75 percent on the shooting and news about it, with 25 percent on 'the need for strict gun laws' ...

... same old, same old, from the BBC. That the British press will fixate on availability of guns in the US is a 'given', each and every single time anything at all like this happens.


Well, I have to say that I'd rather live in a country that allows its citizens to own guns than live in a country that requires ID to buy a pizza cutter (England). Now I realize that you, Drummond, don't share the views of your country's views on gun control, but feel free to pass my opinion on to any of your brethren who might be interested...



A shopper was astonished when staff at Marks and Spencer demanded that she prove her age before she bought a pizza-cutter. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5914307/Woman-28-told-to-prove-age-to-buy-pizza-cutter.html)

[Gunny]

Well, I have to say that I'd rather live in a country that allows its citizens to own guns than live in a country that requires ID to buy a pizza cutter (England). Now I realize that you, Drummond, don't share the views of your country's views on gun control, but feel free to pass my opinion on to any of your brethren who might be interested...



A shopper was astonished when staff at Marks and Spencer demanded that she prove her age before she bought a pizza-cutter. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5914307/Woman-28-told-to-prove-age-to-buy-pizza-cutter.html)You never know who's going to throw you in the air, spin you, drop you on the table and cut you into 8 pieces ...:rolleyes:

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Thus far... this guy fits no profile as someone who would do such a thing. I'm flabbergasted.

And to think NO ONE saw this coming... and didn't say anything?

What happened to the person who claimed there was a Hispanic woman and man saying, "you're all going to die?" How the hell did they know? And this guy wasn't a recluse, so the layers shouldn't be too hard to peal back.

I'm not a real big fan of cops, but in instances like this, I wish I was one of the investigators that got to look into this ass clown.

[Drummond]

Well, I have to say that I'd rather live in a country that allows its citizens to own guns than live in a country that requires ID to buy a pizza cutter (England). Now I realize that you, Drummond, don't share the views of your country's views on gun control, but feel free to pass my opinion on to any of your brethren who might be interested...



A shopper was astonished when staff at Marks and Spencer demanded that she prove her age before she bought a pizza-cutter. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5914307/Woman-28-told-to-prove-age-to-buy-pizza-cutter.html)

Correct .. I don't share the gun control views (nor support the legislation) which makes the UK what it is today ... a society where the lawbreakers have a clear advantage over the law-abiding. Follow our law, and it's unlikely you'd ever own a gun. Those not following our law, here, are far more likely to get and keep them.

Laws favouring the criminally-minded, as ours do, reflect OUR backwardness in such matters. I'll be very happy to pass both our opinions on this to anyone caring to listen.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Correct .. I don't share the gun control views (nor support the legislation) which makes the UK what it is today ... a society where the lawbreakers have a clear advantage over the law-abiding. Follow our law, and it's unlikely you'd ever own a gun. Those not following our law, here, are far more likely to get and keep them.

Laws favouring the criminally-minded, as ours do, reflect OUR backwardness in such matters. I'll be very happy to pass both our opinions on this to anyone caring to listen.
I think with the islamification of Europe, you people should be mounting an all out effort to get your guns back.

WHY would anyone nations people want to be left with no way what so ever to defend themselves from tyranny or other dangers?

[Black Diamond]

I think with the islamification of Europe, you people should be mounting an all out effort to get your guns back.

WHY would anyone nations people want to be left with no way what so ever to defend themselves from tyranny or other dangers?
Merkel is destroying her own country. I don't imagine the rest is far behind.

[mundame]

I'm thinking senility -- paranoia? He was so conventional for so long and his family is all so surprised: this came out of nowhere and that needs an explanation. I know he was young for senility, but people can become very uneven: look okay in some areas but be nonfunctional in others.

However, I am still interested in the ISIS connection. Especially with the very smokey girlfriend. It's not so remarkable that she is out of the country --- he might have planned this for when she would be away....."No, I'll be fine, honey, I'll just catch up on some things I've been wanting to do." But why does she travel so much? And what was she doing in Dubai? Why isn't she a normal American woman? He was a nice-looking guy and well off -- what is he doing with a Oriental woman? The whole picture is weird.

[gabosaurus]

Sorry if this wrecks anyone's conspiracy theory, but Marilou Danley is Australian. She grew up in Queensland, married an Australian man and raised her family on the Gold Coast.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/las-vegas-mass-shooting-who-is-marilou-danley-20171002-gyt1sv.html

[darin]

Sorry if this wrecks anyone's conspiracy theory, but Marilou Danley is Australian. She grew up in Queensland, married an Australian man and raised her family on the Gold Coast.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/las-vegas-mass-shooting-who-is-marilou-danley-20171002-gyt1sv.html

Australians can't be muslims or terrorists or bad people? How would her background change anyone's theory over wtf happened with these two people?

[mundame]

Australians can't be muslims or terrorists or bad people? How would her background change anyone's theory over wtf happened with these two people?

She's not Aussie; she's some kind of Oriental or Asian who may well be Muslim. People have been claiming she's Indonesian, Vietnamese, Hispanic, and what, now Australian? I don't think we know, that's all. And she travels, travels, travels. It looks very suspicious to me. Especially the Dubai part. Most terrorist events do involve radicalized people traveling to the sandpits of the world. I bet she doesn't return here. She's be pretty silly to come back; I bet she is not a citizen.

[darin]

She's not Aussie; she's some kind of Oriental or Asian who may well be Muslim. People have been claiming she's Indonesian, Vietnamese, Hispanic, and what, now Australian? I don't think we know, that's all. And she travels, travels, travels. It looks very suspicious to me. Especially the Dubai part. Most terrorist events do involve radicalized people traveling to the sandpits of the world. I bet she doesn't return here. She's be pretty silly to come back; I bet she is not a citizen.

We stopped saying "oriental" about 1973. Muslims can be Aussies. Aussies can be Muslims.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Judging by the cycle rate, it sounds like an AK-47. I don't know if anyone here has seen these, they're called a "slide fire," or a "bump fire," and they're legal. I could put one on my AK. Match that with a 100 round drum magazine that anyone can buy at a gun show and you've got a lot of fire power...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwvO_DKJHf0
Looks like I called this one...

Millionaire Vegas gunman who killed 59 people and hurt 527 took TWENTY THREE guns in TEN bags into Mandalay Bay sniper's nest where he put legally converted full-auto assault rifles on tripods


Stephen Paddock killed at least 59 people and injured 527 when he opened fire on concertgoers Sunday
A SWAT Team blew open the door to Las Vegas suite he was using as a sniper nest, but he'd shot himself dead
Cops recovered 23 guns, some with scopes and military-grade ammo, two with tripods, at least one full auto
Other semi-auto weapons had been modified with legal bump-stocks that simulate fully automatic fire



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4942856/Las-Vegas-gunman-SIXTEEN-guns-TEN-suitcases.html#ixzz4uRhG7RYD

[darin]

Going to buy a slide-fire stock this week in preparation for their eventual outlaw. SO GLAD Trump is president instead of that vile woman.

[pete311]

She's not Aussie; she's some kind of Oriental or Asian who may well be Muslim. People have been claiming she's Indonesian, Vietnamese, Hispanic, and what, now Australian? I don't think we know, that's all. And she travels, travels, travels. It looks very suspicious to me. Especially the Dubai part. Most terrorist events do involve radicalized people traveling to the sandpits of the world. I bet she doesn't return here. She's be pretty silly to come back; I bet she is not a citizen.

I bet, I bet, I bet she's an alien. btw, I've been to 9 middle eastern countries, does that make me a terrorist?

[pete311]

Going to buy a slide-fire stock this week in preparation for their eventual outlaw. SO GLAD Trump is president instead of that vile woman.

Will be useful in the coming zombie wars

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Going to buy a slide-fire stock this week in preparation for their eventual outlaw. SO GLAD Trump is president instead of that vile woman.
I wouldn't order one online right now. If they do outlaw them they'll track you down.

I'm going to a big gun show this weekend, going to see if there's any there. Private sales are legal in Wisconsin at gun shows.

[darin]

I wouldn't order one online right now. If they do outlaw them they'll track you down.

I'm going to a big gun show this weekend, going to see if there's any there. Private sales are legal in Wisconsin at gun shows.

I have no other way to get one being over here in SocialistLand

[Gunny]

I'm going to be the jerk that says it so the sensitive PC folk can get prepared to get all upset :laugh:

This guy damned sure did it right. I've been saying for years that if anyone with any real tactical knowledge and proper weapons decided to go bonkers they could do a LOT more damage than most of these jerkoffs manage. I'm surprised he didn't do more.

[jimnyc]

Sorry if this wrecks anyone's conspiracy theory, but Marilou Danley is Australian. She grew up in Queensland, married an Australian man and raised her family on the Gold Coast.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/las-vegas-mass-shooting-who-is-marilou-danley-20171002-gyt1sv.html

And folks can't convert? We've seen a handful of "converts" that went on to commit attacks. I'm not saying that is the case here, but stating someone is Australian or where they grew up tells us nothing.

[jimnyc]

I bet, I bet, I bet she's an alien. btw, I've been to 9 middle eastern countries, does that make me a terrorist?

Are you chilling with someone and went to a room with him/her with 20 guns? And then proceeded to kill or injure about 600 people?

[jimnyc]

Will be useful in the coming zombie wars

I'm confident that most people in wars felt similarly, or at least some like you. And God forbid something ever does happen - you'll be hiding in your basement cowered in the corner with the ladies. So many others will be prepared and will have a way to protect themselves AND protect those girls they are cowering with.

[CSM]

I'm going to be the jerk that says it so the sensitive PC folk can get prepared to get all upset :laugh:

This guy damned sure did it right. I've been saying for years that if anyone with any real tactical knowledge and proper weapons decided to go bonkers they could do a LOT more damage than most of these jerkoffs manage. I'm surprised he didn't do more.

The reason he "didn't do more" is because he was an amateur. I have no doubt he read a lot of tactical info and maybe even practiced a bit but the scenario in Vegas was very much "shooting fish in a barrel". Only one apparent ingress/egress for the victims, clear fields of fire, and massed targets. A blind man could have been effective. Clearly he fully intended to inflict as much damage as he could before eating a bullet. Just as clear that the guy was not stupid or deranged. The planning he did ahead of time was meticulous and it is just as clear that he planned on being dead at the end of it. No escape route planned for himself tells me that he intended this to be his "last stand".

[jimnyc]

It's a national tragedy. So many folks have lost their lives. This has NOTHING to do with any type of politics. This man is a Trump hater, and I left that alone up until now as I think it's got nothing to do with this shooting. But CNN still has to inject this crap. :rolleyes:

--

CNN Stereotypes Country Music Fans as 'Trump Supporters'

Amidst microphone issues at CNN, the home studio was able to communicate with Jeff Zeleny at the White House. He said of the victims of the Las Vegas shooting, "A lot of these country music supporters were likely Trump supporters." Firstly, why does that matter? The worst mass shooting in American history -- what does it matter whom they voted for in 2016?!? But also, is that true? What makes him think that this stereotype is correct?

We're sure that CNN was saying it as something derogatory-- like, these brainwashed rednecks all backed Trump. But it can also be redirected as a compliment. Country music is often the genre with the most patriotic themes, and with the most "salt of the earth"-type fans. Unlike rock music with its drugs and sex, or rap music with its anti-society anger, country music embodies American values. Hard work, love and loss, and faith. So maybe, if you ignore this comment's most probable sentiment, CNN was actually saying that the people who most embody what it is to be an American are fans of President Trump?

https://pjmedia.com/video/cnn-stereotypes-country-music-fans-as-trump-supporters/

[darin]

The reason he "didn't do more" is because he was an amateur. I have no doubt he read a lot of tactical info and maybe even practiced a bit but the scenario in Vegas was very much "shooting fish in a barrel". Only one apparent ingress/egress for the victims, clear fields of fire, and massed targets. A blind man could have been effective. Clearly he fully intended to inflict as much damage as he could before eating a bullet. Just as clear that the guy was not stupid or deranged. The planning he did ahead of time was meticulous and it is just as clear that he planned on being dead at the end of it. No escape route planned for himself tells me that he intended this to be his "last stand".

Or maybe his body was put there and actual tactically-trained folks did this. I want to see photos and videos of the raid. I want to know what he had. I want to know where they found the body.

[Gunny]

The reason he "didn't do more" is because he was an amateur. I have no doubt he read a lot of tactical info and maybe even practiced a bit but the scenario in Vegas was very much "shooting fish in a barrel". Only one apparent ingress/egress for the victims, clear fields of fire, and massed targets. A blind man could have been effective. Clearly he fully intended to inflict as much damage as he could before eating a bullet. Just as clear that the guy was not stupid or deranged. The planning he did ahead of time was meticulous and it is just as clear that he planned on being dead at the end of it. No escape route planned for himself tells me that he intended this to be his "last stand".

Another issue they were ranting about on the news. "Took the cowardly way out". No, he just deprived the public of its revenge parading him around from jail to jail and courtroom to courtroom, face all over the TV, all the pundits and loudmouths saying what-all they'd have done. Leading up to his execution after 15 years in prison. Looks to me like he just ruined the usual post-crime parade.

I think it'd take a lot of balls to put a loaded weapon to your head and squeeze the trigger yourself.

[CSM]

Or maybe his body was put there and actual tactically-trained folks did this. I want to see photos and videos of the raid. I want to know what he had. I want to know where they found the body.

Certainly a possibility. There is a whole lot that doesn't make sense about this. I am still not sure there wasn't more than one shooter. I am not a conspiracy theorist but there is something awful strange about this.

[jimnyc]

Me neither. WHY keep calling for it when it's obvious it doesn't work. The criminals have NOTHING to do with laws.

---

Dem Congressman: Gun Control Laws Don't Work

Democratic Congressman Henry Cuellar agreed with Fox News host Tucker Carlson Monday that gun control laws don’t work.

“I think there are some people who believe in gun control,” the Texas congressman told Carlson. “I don’t believe in gun control. I think you can have responsible people do the right thing with a gun but unfortunately sometimes you get a situation like this that it’s hard to explain but just taking guns away from everybody is not going to solve the issue.”

Carlson then wanted to know why people keep making that argument.

“Can you think of a single place in the United States that has become safe because of gun control?” he asked Cuellar.

“No,” the congressman quickly answered.

“Right,” Carlson said. “I don’t think anyone else can think of when either so why do people keep proposing it?”

Rest - https://townhall.com/tipsheet/leahbarkoukis/2017/10/03/dem-congressman-gun-control-laws-dont-work-n2389973

[Gunny]

Certainly a possibility. There is a whole lot that doesn't make sense about this. I am still not sure there wasn't more than one shooter. I am not a conspiracy theorist but there is something awful strange about this.I actually haven't looked a all the stats yet. Sure seems like a LOT of rounds for one shooter.

And the country music thing? That came from that CBC airhead that got fired. Why would a country music guy open fire on country music fans? I guess we lucked out though. If he'd opened fire on blacks, gays, AntiFA, etc half the country would be ablaze right now.

[CSM]

I actually haven't looked a all the stats yet. Sure seems like a LOT of rounds for one shooter.

And the country music thing? That came from that CBC airhead that got fired. Why would a country music guy open fire on country music fans? I guess we lucked out though. If he'd opened fire on blacks, gays, AntiFA, etc half the country would be ablaze right now.

Well, can you imagine if some nut opened up on the Las Vegas gun show they hold every year?

[Gunny]

Well, can you imagine if some nut opened up on the Las Vegas gun show they hold every year?:laugh: That made me laugh.

[jimnyc]

First Photos Emerge From Inside The Las Vegas Mass Shooter’s Hotel Room

From Daily Star UK:

Boston 25 News released the images of automatic rifles, one with a bipod stand, lying on the carpet of the 32nd floor of Mandalay Bay hotel.

They can be seen with a hammer used by killer Stephen Paddock to smash the windows to fire upon crowds below.

A total of 59 were killed on Sunday night in Las Vegas and over 500 injured.

Many of the victims identities have been revealed.

https://i.imgur.com/1X5e2qY.png

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/10/first-photos-emerge-inside-las-vegas-mass-shooters-hotel-room/

[mundame]

I bet, I bet, I bet she's an alien. btw, I've been to 9 middle eastern countries, does that make me a terrorist?

I hope not..... I doubt she was there for the reasons you were there.

The news is saying now that she is Filipino AND that Paddock wired her $100,000 a few days ago. Or at least that he wired that money to the Philippines anyway, not for sure to her. The Philippines is a hotbed of the worst Islamic terrorism, of course. I'd like to see the ISIS connection ruled out before I dismiss it.

[mundame]

The planning he did ahead of time was meticulous and it is just as clear that he planned on being dead at the end of it. No escape route planned for himself tells me that he intended this to be his "last stand".

Yeah.....I hope they aren't competing with their peers. But they probably are. The next guy has to kill more than 59 to win.

[jimnyc]

I hope not..... I doubt she was there for the reasons you were there.

The news is saying now that she is Filipino AND that Paddock wired her $100,000 a few days ago. Or at least that he wired that money to the Philippines anyway, not for sure to her. The Philippines is a hotbed of the worst Islamic terrorism, of course. I'd like to see the ISIS connection ruled out before I dismiss it.

Agreed. I highly doubt it based on everything out thus far - but ISIS claims responsibility, claims he converted months back and even gave him an Islamic name. IMO, thus far, I think they made this shit up to take advantage of this huge shooting. But like you, I think it needs to be fully ruled out, which I would imagine should be very quickly.

And whoever got that money... if she planned on moving there or whatever. But if for someone else, investigate them, and if any knowledge, then arrest them too.

[jimnyc]

Looks like I called this one...

More...


The Vegas Shooter Had Two Bump Stocks In His Room, Here’s What That Means

Two “bump stocks,” designed to enable a semi-automatic weapon to fire like a fully automatic weapon, were found in the hotel room Stephen Paddock used as a perch to perpetrate America’s deadliest mass shooting Sunday night in Las Vegas.

Bump stocks dramatically increases a semi-automatic weapon’s rate of fire as the device allows the natural recoil of the gun to “bump” the shooter’s trigger finger, increasing the rate of fire to become nearly indistinguishable from that of a fully-automatic weapon. Since the shooter’s finger is technically pulling the trigger for each round fired, the weapon can legally be classified as semi-automatic.

Rest - http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/03/the-vegas-shooter-had-two-bump-stocks-in-his-room-heres-what-that-means/

[Kathianne]

I'm hoping we find out his motivation, but I'm going to wait without taking speculation as an answer. Like Jim said, ISIS has at least twice tried to take responsibility, the second time giving him an Islamic name. Again as Jim said, this is not going to take long to find out, there are only so many ways to be in contact-social media, going to radical mosques, having contacts, (though this guy seems to have been an extreme loner socially), that help recruit him to their cause, or travels to areas of training.

The girlfriend could qualify, IF she is Islamic radical, so far nothing indicates she is. For the record, the Philippines is over 80% Catholic.

Maybe the psychopathy of his father was passed on? Maybe he found he had terminal illness or something else and decided to end life early, taking as many out as possible? Maybe he just wanted to get 'glory' in suicide?

Snapped doesn't work for me, whatever his motivation the attack was very much premeditated and very expensive. It seems to have been a massive amount of work. Thousands of rounds of ammo alone seems pretty damn heavy. 23 guns too would be quite the load.

In any case, whether through autopsy, girlfriend investigations, computer or writings analyzed, hopefully there will be some answers. OTOH, entirely possible we'll never find out.

[jimnyc]

I'm hoping we find out his motivation, but I'm going to wait without taking speculation as an answer. Like Jim said, ISIS has at least twice tried to take responsibility, the second time giving him an Islamic name. Again as Jim said, this is not going to take long to find out, there are only so many ways to be in contact-social media, going to radical mosques, having contacts, (though this guy seems to have been an extreme loner socially), that help recruit him to their cause, or travels to areas of training.

The girlfriend could qualify, IF she is Islamic radical, so far nothing indicates she is. For the record, the Philippines is over 80% Catholic.

Maybe the psychopathy of his father was passed on? Maybe he found he had terminal illness or something else and decided to end life early, taking as many out as possible? Maybe he just wanted to get 'glory' in suicide?

Snapped doesn't work for me, whatever his motivation the attack was very much premeditated and very expensive. It seems to have been a massive amount of work. Thousands of rounds of ammo alone seems pretty damn heavy. 23 guns too would be quite the load.

In any case, whether through autopsy, girlfriend investigations, computer or writings analyzed, hopefully there will be some answers. OTOH, entirely possible we'll never find out.

Agreed! He'll likely have a "history" of what he's done on the internet and via email. I'd imagine folks knowing they are going to off themselves probably don't care much of leaving a little trail on their computer. Then the girlfriend, she will hopefully be the largest source of information, and hopefully they scare the bejeezus out of her enough to get her to spill all the beans. Is it possible that he recently converted and decided quickly to be a martyr? I suppose it's possible, but I would have thought we would have saw 'something, anything' right off the bat to show, for him to show, that this was in support somehow. But nothing.

It would appear the rest of his family are about as clueless as us here about him or his intentions.

I would imagine the FBI will work with calls, receipts, cameras, internet, girlfriend, anyone he wired money to, folks he may have had recent conversations with that we haven't heard from yet. I truly hope they get to the bottom of all of this, so the world knows and the families know.

And the girlfriend, once all the information and life is sucked out of her body, put her in a cell. I can't imagine her not knowing all about this.

[pete311]

Official confirms he wired $100k to Philippines at some point. Now that is interesting.

[jimnyc]

Official confirms he wired $100k to Philippines at some point. Now that is interesting.

Could have been to some clueless relative before he offed himself, or something more nefarious. Time will tell.

[jimnyc]

BREAKING: Photos emerge of Las Vegas shooter Stephen Paddock’s body….and there is a NOTE

PHOTOS have leaked online of the dead body of Las Vegas shooter Stephen Paddock – and he appears to have left a note.

https://i.imgur.com/H9GIV9n.jpg

The killer, 64, massacred 59 people from his hotel room at the Mandalay Bay in the worst rampage ever in the history of the US.

SWAT cops burst into his 32nd floor room and were met with the grim scene of 23 guns, ammunition littering the floor, and the dead Paddock.

Images seemingly surfaced showing Paddock lying dead on the hotel room floor with blood pouring from his mouth.

The alleged gunman appears to be wearing a brown shirt, black slacks, loafers and a pair of gloves.

Chillingly, he appears to have left some kind of note on the side table.

Rest - http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/649606/Las-Vegas-Shooting-Pictures-Stephen-Paddock-Body-Motive-Note-Gun-Hotel-Room-Mandalay-Bay


Las Vegas gunman filmed himself during slaughter

Las Vegas madman Stephen Paddock set up a camera inside his hotel room to capture his deadly shooting rampage — and other surveillance in the hallway to alert him as cops closed in on him, according to reports.

The shooter had at least one lens set up to tape himself as he unleashed hell on thousands of unsuspecting concertgoers several hundred yards below his ritzy casino suite, according to ABC News.

Apparently knowing cops would eventually catch up to him, he also wired cameras in the hallway outside his room so he could see when the heat was getting close, the Daily Mail reported.

Paddock killed 59 people and injured more than 500 in the worst mass shooting in US history.

http://nypost.com/2017/10/03/las-vegas-gunman-filmed-himself-during-slaughter/

[hjmick]

A picture of a piece of paper on an end table does not a note make.


I'll wait for some hard information before I get interested.

[jimnyc]

A picture of a piece of paper on an end table does not a note make.


I'll wait for some hard information before I get interested.

I agree, but it's a lead. A pen to paper, sitting on a desk like that, at least "appears" as if it were left in a fashion to be found. I would assume that if that's the case, it shouldn't be a ton longer before they release information about the paper, or to shoot it down as worthless at least. IF that's what it was, hopefully it will answer a lot of questions, as many are clueless to an extent, at this point.

[Abbey Marie]

I saw on FB a very graphic photo of him dead. Pretty icky stuff.

[Black Diamond]

I saw on FB a very graphic photo of him dead. Pretty icky stuff.
Still think we should be able to view bin ladens corpse.

[Kathianne]

I'm sure there are at least 59 stories to be told, but this one made me so sad. Going on just about 1 year married, husband dies shielding wife from gunfire:

http://www.parispi.net/news/local_news/article_5d031ffe-a782-11e7-b809-73aed9dac75e.html#utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social


Just saw this on my fb page, from his Dad:


Love What Matters2 hrs ·


"My Thoughts about Sonny and heroes.


If my calculations are correct, In my 62 years, I have seen about 22,623 sunrises in my life. As of this past Sunday morning, I never experienced one that I couldn't find at least some good in and I had never, ever hated anyone. And I mean that, not anyone. As of 12:57 AM Monday morning Oct. 1, 2017 I am now well acquainted with both horrible things, a hated day and a hated person.


That's the moment I received the telephone call that everyone, especially a parent, fears.


As I understand it now, it was just bullets fired wildly into a crowd of about 20,000 country music fans. A crowd where Sonny just happened to be with his wife, listening to music. However, this crowd turned out to be a target of several acres in size with a 99% chance to make a hit on a human body with most every single shot fired into it. And in this sea of carnage, Sonny was a hero right up until the bullets pierced his back and lungs and he couldn't go on.


But my tale of heroes doesn't end there folks, not at all. As Sonny and Heather ran away from the sniper, he always kept his own body between the danger and his wife. A running human shield. Heather says he had his hands on her shoulders and she felt him get hit and start to fall. And even though she was only a few yards from the safety of a concrete retaining wall, she stopped and turned around to kneel by his side. She made a quick exam and yelled for help as dozens of others fell around them. Bullets hitting the concrete so near that the resulting dust irritated her eyes. But she stayed right there and started CPR out in the open on the cold ground in a last ditch chance to save her husband. Don't you see, Heather is a hero also. Protected by nothing more than the grace of God's invisible hands, she stayed with him and I'm comforted now knowing my son didn't have to die alone.


And that's not all! Suddenly out of the blue came two more angels. These angels were in the form of two young concert goers who chose not to hide or run away. These two guys braved the hell of that killing field that must have resembled the Marines landing on Omaha Beach. They ran to Sonny and Heather, picked him up and carried him all the way to their pickup truck. There, they loaded Sonny and two other victims into the bed of the truck and raced to the closest hospital. One guy driving, the other helping Heather give CPR to Sonny. We don't even know these guys names, they asked for no praise or reward. They just said they were sorry they couldn't have gotten to Sonny quicker. They are heroes!


But, it just wasn't enough. Heather cried as hope slipped away and the doctors in the ER pronounced him dead. Sonny was an ER Nurse himself. Once when I asked him why, he just smiled and in a matter of fact way said 'I want to help save people's lives.' Well, he lived up to that high standard until the very bitter end. I know I'm not the first to feel these horrible things, like grief and loss and I'll certainly not be the last, but I sure wish I could be. Because it hurts, man I mean it really hurts.


A few years ago, I had a really good friend who was an American Indian. His people have a prayer that he often recited that always touched my heart. I can't remember it word for word, but I have repeated it often in my own words. 'Please God, let me live honorably and when I take my last breath, let me die standing tall protecting my family.' I haven't had the opportunity to finalize those words yet for me, and it may not even be in my future. But Sonny did. He stood the final test. He was just a good guy, doing what good guys do. He was a hero.


I truly thank our Lord that we had Sonny for these past 29 years and I like to believe I even helped him a little grow into the great young man he was.


Susan, Janie and I made the 5 hour flight to Las Vegas without a total breakdown only because of the employees of Southwest Airlines who went above and beyond to help, one flight attendant even took us by the hand to his personal car and drove us to find Heather in this strange city. I say this so I don't lose sight of the fact there are good people everywhere.


My hatred of the shooter may diminish given enough time, again I'm not the first to bare this burden. But right now, that's not an option. As an ex cop, I share the frustration of the SWAT officer we heard about who was crying because the shooter killed himself before the cops could breach the door and take care of that ugly business themselves. Like I said, a coward.


The grief has us now firmly in its relentless grip and this evil day has lasted way too long. Once again my prayer is to just be sleep stupid and have this sadness go away, even for just a few hours till I wake to my new, changed and darker world. Sonny was a hero."


#LoveWhatMatters
Credit: James Warren Melton

[hjmick]

And now she's a person if interest...

Las Vegas shooting suspect's girlfriend is 'person of interest', says sheriff (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/03/las-vegas-shooting-girlfriend-marilou-danley-person-of-interest-sheriff)

[darin]

I hate the fact I wasn't there to help. :(

[darin]

Expect a call for airport style security at hotels - Suitcase xrays and what-not.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Agreed. I highly doubt it based on everything out thus far - but ISIS claims responsibility, claims he converted months back and even gave him an Islamic name. IMO, thus far, I think they made this shit up to take advantage of this huge shooting. But like you, I think it needs to be fully ruled out, which I would imagine should be very quickly.

And whoever got that money... if she planned on moving there or whatever. But if for someone else, investigate them, and if any knowledge, then arrest them too.

Could be he was recruited by ISIS, and the girl was his handler .. Currently in the Philippines their is a war going on with the muslims .
That money , sent came from where. She fled to where.
And why is not the words in note revealed to the American public?
You can bet you last nickel if that note reveals it was truly ISIS engineered , the government will lie about it-- even to the point of making a false note to back up their lie.
Another calculated by government tactic to not give ISIS ANY VICTORIES HERE BY LYING ABOUT WHEN THEY SUCCEED IN AN ATTACK....
Problem is, truth about what they are and why they should be exterminated is the better path.
Yet, how often does government bother to take the better route and tell the truth too???--Tyr

[darin]

quote of the day

"To believe that someone who would shoot down 50 people wouldn't circumvent any gun law you pass is the height of delusion."
-Drexel professor George Ciccariello

That's a liberal professor's comments -while true...the rest of his message is bullshit. So I wont link to it.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I saw on FB a very graphic photo of him dead. Pretty icky stuff.
Boy they must have scrubbed that off the internet real fast because I can't find hide nor hair of it.

There's a pic that shows his feet and legs and a hand, but that's it.

[mundame]

Could be he was recruited by ISIS, and the girl was his handler .. Currently in the Philippines their is a war going on with the muslims .
That money , sent came from where. She fled to where.
And why is not the words in note revealed to the American public?
You can bet you last nickel if that note reveals it was truly ISIS engineered , the government will lie about it-- even to the point of making a false note to back up their lie.
Another calculated by government tactic to not give ISIS ANY VICTORIES HERE BY LYING ABOUT WHEN THEY SUCCEED IN AN ATTACK....
Problem is, truth about what they are and why they should be exterminated is the better path.
Yet, how often does government bother to take the better route and tell the truth too???--Tyr

That's it ---- that's what I'm concerned about, too.

I want only the facts. Propaganda/disinformation is wholly immoral, especially by the government.

[Abbey Marie]

Boy they must have scrubbed that off the internet real fast because I can't find hide nor hair of it.

There's a pic that shows his feet and legs and a hand, but that's it.

His face was bloodied up. Looked like one clean shot, though I’m no expert.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

His face was bloodied up. Liked like one clean shot, though I’m no expert.
Wow... yeah I've looked and looked and can't find that pic. My guess is they scrubbed that quick.

I did read that when the cops entered the room there was blood coming out of his mouth. Pretty gruesome, but he deserved worse than that in my opinion.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Going to buy a slide-fire stock this week in preparation for their eventual outlaw. SO GLAD Trump is president instead of that vile woman.
You called it, pard. Just heard on the news that the dems have introduced a bill that would outlaw bump stocks.

[jimnyc]

Wow... yeah I've looked and looked and can't find that pic. My guess is they scrubbed that quick.

I did read that when the cops entered the room there was blood coming out of his mouth. Pretty gruesome, but he deserved worse than that in my opinion.

I can't verify the picture. It was posted by Alex Jones on twitter, and sure as hell looks to be legit, compared to other pictures that have been released.

Rather than embedding, here is a direct link to my upload.

*Click at ones own peril*

https://i.imgur.com/wQ1VjLW.jpg

[Abbey Marie]

I can't verify the picture. It was posted by Alex Jones on twitter, and sure as hell looks to be legit, compared to other pictures that have been released.

Rather than embedding, here is a direct link to my upload.

*Click at ones own peril*

https://i.imgur.com/wQ1VjLW.jpg

Yes, that's the one I saw.

[pete311]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10909&stc=1

[Black Diamond]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10909&stc=1
Constitution agrees. Damn thing.

[pete311]

Constitution agrees. Damn thing.

If you have no other opinion that makes you a lemming. Law does not equal morality.

[Black Diamond]

If you have no other opinion that makes you a lemming. Law does not equal morality.
Health care being a right implies you can enslave health care workers.

[Gunny]

If you have no other opinion that makes you a lemming. Law does not equal morality.Nor do your misconceived notions of morality equal actual morality.

[Abbey Marie]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10909&stc=1



How many were turned away from the ER for lack of insurance?