If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

To sin is to do something immoral and thus create a victim to that sin. I cannot see all sins as something that would condemn us to eternal suffering and death in hell or the lake of fire as that goes against the biblical notion of justice being an eye for an eye or that the penalty should fit the crime/sin.

What sin did Jesus do to earn his death?

I see Jesus’ death as more of suicide than sacrifice as he initiated his own suicide by getting Judas to betray him.

Could Jesus’ sin have been suicide?


If not, what do you think his sin was?

Regards
DL

[Gunny]

Fail. Guess you missed the newsflash: Christ is not dead. Back to the drawing board, Wile E.

[aboutime]

If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

To sin is to do something immoral and thus create a victim to that sin. I cannot see all sins as something that would condemn us to eternal suffering and death in hell or the lake of fire as that goes against the biblical notion of justice being an eye for an eye or that the penalty should fit the crime/sin.

What sin did Jesus do to earn his death?

I see Jesus’ death as more of suicide than sacrifice as he initiated his own suicide by getting Judas to betray him.

Could Jesus’ sin have been suicide?


If not, what do you think his sin was?

Regards
DL






Personally. I believe it is a sin that people like you take advantage of your hatred by trying to convince others that you are better than they are, or smarter. When it comes to sin. YOU are not eligible, or qualified to even ask such BS.

[revelarts]

If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
To sin is to do something immoral and thus create a victim to that sin.
I cannot see all sins as something that would condemn us to eternal suffering and death in hell or the lake of fire as that goes against the biblical notion of justice being an eye for an eye or that the penalty should fit the crime/sin.
What sin did Jesus do to earn his death?
I see Jesus’ death as more of suicide than sacrifice as he initiated his own suicide by getting Judas to betray him.
Could Jesus’ sin have been suicide?
If not, what do you think his sin was?

the apostle John answers with

1 John 3: 4-6
Everyone who commits sin breaks God’s law, for that is what sin is, by definition—a breaking of God’s law.
You know, moreover, that Christ became man for the purpose of removing sin, and he himself was quite free from sin.


the apostle Paul and the writer of Hebrews expand on those facts.
Romans 5
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us....
...Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
...The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous...

Hebrews 4
Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Hebrews 13
The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

Hebrew 7
Human High Priests have always been changing, for death made a permanent appointment impossible.
But Christ, because he lives for ever, possesses a priesthood that needs no successor.
This means that he can save fully and completely those who approach God through him, for he is always living to intercede on their behalf.
Here is the High Priest we need. A man who is holy, faultless, unstained, beyond the very reach of sin and lifted to the very Heavens.
There is no need for him, like the High Priest we know, to offer up sacrifice, first for our own sins and then for the people’s.
He made one sacrifice, once for all, when he offered up himself.



so your definition of sin is somewhat off, and your assessment Jesus and his actions are way off.
end of story.
But If you want to MAKE UP or adhere to other ideas about God and Jesus and believe those, well, that's your choice. Have fun while you can.
But please don't pretend that your view is is somehow logical and based on scripture while you IGNORE the CLEARLY EXPRESSED teaching of the Apostles.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Fail. Guess you missed the newsflash: Christ is not dead. Back to the drawing board, Wile E.

So Jesus did not die for us. Ok.

I agree.

Strange though that you would eliminate or deny the crucifixion and sacrifice instead of just admitting that there I something wrong with the story of Jesus.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Personally. I believe it is a sin that people like you take advantage of your hatred by trying to convince others that you are better than they are, or smarter. When it comes to sin. YOU are not eligible, or qualified to even ask such BS.

I asked a question and you showed your hate because of not being able to reconcile the idea I question.

You might remember ----

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt (http://www.debatepolicy.com/quotes/quotes/e/eleanorroo385439.html)

Regard
DL

[aboutime]

I asked a question and you showed your hate because of not being able to reconcile the idea I question.

You might remember ----

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt (http://www.debatepolicy.com/quotes/quotes/e/eleanorroo385439.html)

Regard
DL






You really are dangerously funny. Preaching as you try to do here is laughable, at best. If you think my personal opinion about you is HATEFUL, you should remember the words about "Judging Others."

By the way. Your foolish words here, reminded me...
"It is impossible to have an intelligent conversation with someone like you, who has no intelligence."

[Abbey Marie]

Stunning misconception of the Bible. Or deliberate obfuscation.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

[QUOTE=revelarts;878752]the apostle John answers with

and he himself was quite free from sin.


[QUOTE]

:lame2:

The how could he die sinless if death is the wage of sin?

Regards
DL

[aboutime]

Stunning misconception of the Bible. Or deliberate obfuscation.


Abbey. I suspect gnostic uses the DNC talking points manual that reminds followers they are only GOOD if they promise to believe all of the Liberal Lies.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Stunning misconception of the Bible. Or deliberate obfuscation.

Thanks for clearing things up.

Regards
DL

[Abbey Marie]

Thanks for clearing things up.

Regards
DL

Glad I could help :cool:

[Black Diamond]

Jesus became sin and died.

[aboutime]

Jesus became sin and died.


Gnostic doesn't want us to remember that Jesus Died for Our Sins. Gnostic IMO, is a phony prophet, not unlike Jim Jones, or the Leader of Scientology...L. Ron Hubbard. Terribly intelligent Idiots.

[revelarts]

...the apostle John answers with
and he himself was quite free from sin. ...

:lame2:The how could he die sinless if death is the wage of sin?
Regards
DL


umm Gnostic are you married? Have you ever given all your wages/pay check to your wife?
Why are you acting as if wages aren't transferable to those that didn't do the work for them?
It's not a difficult concept. And It's not a hidden concept, the apostles text over and over again clearly says that's exactly what happened.

2 Corinthians
"We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."



the whole living metaphor of the Mosesic sacrificial system is employed to describe it in the book of Hebrews especially but it's also mentioned in nearly ever new testament book.
The sacrifice/death of the innocent/clean/unblemished/holy/SINLESS animal is substituted for the death of the guilty offender.
John the baptist said when he saw Jesus as an adult "Behold the LAMB of GOD that takes away the sin of the world."

Gnostic you have to want to miss that idea not to see that.

[Gunny]

So Jesus did not die for us. Ok.

I agree.

Strange though that you would eliminate or deny the crucifixion and sacrifice instead of just admitting that there I something wrong with the story of Jesus.

Regards
DLNot very bright, eh? The death of the flesh is NOT the death of the soul. Something you appear to be well on your way to finding out.

Nothing I have said denies either the crucifixion nor the sacrifice. The crucifixion is historical fact and the sacrifice as obvious as your ignorance. Canc that --- your stupidity because you know better. Not sure His sacrifice applies to you since you constantly deny Him, but THAT is not my judgement to make.

[aboutime]

<img src="http://gnosticwarrior.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/false-teachers.jpg">

<img src="http://images.slideplayer.com/16/5095757/slides/slide_9.jpg">

<img src="https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wpoNPndRTVI/maxresdefault.jpg">

[darin]

Short answer: yep. That was the purpose of the cross. Since that happened christ closed up hell and "death" and cast it away and it is nomore. Neat eh?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Jesus became sin and died.

So Jesus was 100% man, 100% God and 100% sin.

Too ridiculous to reply to.

Regards
DL


Gnostic doesn't want us to remember that Jesus Died for Our Sins. Gnostic IMO, is a phony prophet, not unlike Jim Jones, or the Leader of Scientology...L. Ron Hubbard. Terribly intelligent Idiots.

Not really. I just wonder how all you guys can ignore this biblical wisdom and justice which negate your use of a scapegoat.

You are calling these quotes lies.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.


Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.


Not that any here care that they are ignoring much of scriptures.

Regards
DL


umm Gnostic are you married? Have you ever given all your wages/pay check to your wife?
Why are you acting as if wages aren't transferable to those that didn't do the work for them?
It's not a difficult concept. And It's not a hidden concept, the apostles text over and over again clearly says that's exactly what happened.

2 Corinthians
"We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."



the whole living metaphor of the Mosesic sacrificial system is employed to describe it in the book of Hebrews especially but it's also mentioned in nearly ever new testament book.
The sacrifice/death of the innocent/clean/unblemished/holy/SINLESS animal is substituted for the death of the guilty offender.
John the baptist said when he saw Jesus as an adult "Behold the LAMB of GOD that takes away the sin of the world."

Gnostic you have to want to miss that idea not to see that.

I just put three quotes in that last post. They indicate that your sins and pay are your own and not transferable.

Are you ready to ignore them all just to keep your se on your scapegoat Jesus?

Your are a bright guy.
Tell us, who is more likely to use substitutionary punishment as justice, Satan or God?

Regards
DL


Not very bright, eh? The death of the flesh is NOT the death of the soul. Something you appear to be well on your way to finding out.

Nothing I have said denies either the crucifixion nor the sacrifice. The crucifixion is historical fact and the sacrifice as obvious as your ignorance. Canc that --- your stupidity because you know better. Not sure His sacrifice applies to you since you constantly deny Him, but THAT is not my judgement to make.

Only fools think the bible has real history.

Yet you have judged that a genocidal son murdering God is a good God.

Genocide is good. Who knew. Christians. No onder so many churches are closing.

Regards
DL

[revelarts]

Not really. I just wonder how all you guys can ignore this biblical wisdom and justice which negate your use of a scapegoat.
You are calling these quotes lies.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.[/COLOR][/SIZE]Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.[
Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.


Not that any here care that they are ignoring much of scriptures.

I just put three quotes in that last post. They indicate that your sins and pay are your own and not transferable.
Are you ready to ignore them all just to keep your sin on your scapegoat Jesus?

DL seem obvious you're the one ignoring scriptures.
Multiple scriptures make it clear in the extreme that the "sins of the world" are transferred to Jesus and applied to all "who believe".

but to be be clear, the verses you quote do not say that sins aren't transferable to Anything or Anyone else.
They say they are not transferable from FATHERS to SON or vis versa.
the Scripture is making it clear what God does and does not accept as payment for sins.

So how is it that you jump over all the verses in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy that clearly talk about the many various rituals and sacrifices that ARE available for the people and the nation to TRANSFER their sins to something else... to be cleansed of their sins... to be forgiven... and NOT DIE.

And you even use the term "Scapegoat" to try and DENY that sins are transferable. But the term scapegoat is taken from the book of Leviticus and is just ANOTHER clear living/working metaphor for what Jesus did in a FINAL way.
That is, transfer the sins of the people to himself so that he'd bear the punishment for us all.

Leviticus 16:20
“When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat.He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task.The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness...





Your are a bright guy.
Tell us, who is more likely to use substitutionary punishment as justice, Satan or God?

So the choice is,
Would God be more likely to create a merciful substituionary sytem and finally become man and take the full substitutionary punishment for the sins of his fallen creatures to redeem his creation?
Or Would the fallen angel Satan pretend to be God who becomes a man and take the substitutionary punishment for the sins of other fallen creatures.

I'd have to say God would be more likely.
How about you DL?



Only fools think the bible has real history.
Yet you have judged that a genocidal son murdering God is a good God.
Genocide is good. Who knew. Christians. No onder so many churches are closing.

So Jesus was 100% man, 100% God and 100% sin.
Too ridiculous to reply to.


John1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
...14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
...29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!


whether or not you like it or want to believe it or not is between you and God.
but don't pretend the message is unclear DL.

[darin]

why are you using scripture to debate somebody who doesn't believe in the source you're using? #weird Who gives a shit what that guy believes - I am POSITIVE Christ doesn't need anyone here to defend Him. Plus, like...he's already won. So instead of beating Gnostic up with debate, just LOVE the guy.

[revelarts]

why are you using scripture to debate somebody who doesn't believe in the source you're using? #weird Who gives a shit what that guy believes - I am POSITIVE Christ doesn't need anyone here to defend Him. Plus, like...he's already won. So instead of beating Gnostic up with debate, just LOVE the guy.

He's asked several questions about our beliefs.
"If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
...Are you ready to ignore them all just to keep your sin on your scapegoat Jesus?" etc etc


replying by saying something like "we luuvs youuu DL, but i won't answer you're widdle questions, casues they are so silly... you poor silly billy... just wuvvv Jesus like we do... " seems a bit condescending

so I'd rather try and PRETEND and HOPE that his questions do come from a serious sincere place.
And that somewhere behind the doges and prepackaged Q and A there is a REAL person that's thinking about what he's writing and what he's reading.

So i'll answer some of his post outright.
And The apostles and prophets eyewitness testimonies and teaching found in the scripture are the reason I believe what i do. so that's why i use scripture. including the bits about loving ALL others.
Plus scripture says that the word of God is POWERFUL in and of ITSELF.
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Also DL seems to align himself with Satan as an alternative "truth teller". And when Jesus confronted Satan he didn't "just love him" Jesus quoted scripture to refute Satan. When Jesus replied to Pharisees who misused Scripture Jesus USED Scripture to reply not just "love". Speaking the truth in love is not an inappropriate or useless response to lies, especially lies about God, his nature, desires or dealings.

Also Jesus never said we had to "win" he told us get the message of who he is and his salvation out clearly.
What people do with it after that is between them and God.

But God always wins Darin.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

DL seem obvious you're the one ignoring scriptures.
Multiple scriptures make it clear in the extreme that the "sins of the world" are transferred to Jesus and applied to all "who believe".

but to be be clear, the verses you quote do not say that sins aren't transferable to Anything or Anyone else.
They say they are not transferable from FATHERS to SON or vis versa.
the Scripture is making it clear what God does and does not accept as payment for sins.

So how is it that you jump over all the verses in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy that clearly talk about the many various rituals and sacrifices that ARE available for the people and the nation to TRANSFER their sins to something else... to be cleansed of their sins... to be forgiven... and NOT DIE.

And you even use the term "Scapegoat" to try and DENY that sins are transferable. But the term scapegoat is taken from the book of Leviticus and is just ANOTHER clear living/working metaphor for what Jesus did in a FINAL way.
That is, transfer the sins of the people to himself so that he'd bear the punishment for us all.

Leviticus 16:20
“When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat.He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task.The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness...




So the choice is,
Would God be more likely to create a merciful substituionary sytem and finally become man and take the full substitutionary punishment for the sins of his fallen creatures to redeem his creation?
Or Would the fallen angel Satan pretend to be God who becomes a man and take the substitutionary punishment for the sins of other fallen creatures.

I'd have to say God would be more likely.
How about you DL?



John1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
...14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
...29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!


whether or not you like it or want to believe it or not is between you and God.
but don't pretend the message is unclear DL.

Two things.

The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

That says that sins are not transferable.

To you main question.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.


Regards
DL

[revelarts]

Two things.
The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

That says that sins are not transferable.
that says you've deliberately ignored all the rest.

If a will says that "The home is not transferable anyone, except the elder son and his heirs."
The other children and the state or causal readers are simply not being honest if they say "it's says 'It's not transferable' therefore it's not transferable AT ALL"
They are LYING to others ...and themselves if they seriously believe that.




To you main question.
Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.


When the innocent person volunteers out of love, it's not immoral at all. Love and forgiveness trumps sin/immorality.
What's immoral and ungrateful are people ignoring, denying and mocking the sacrifice made for them.

[Gunny]

So Jesus was 100% man, 100% God and 100% sin.

Too ridiculous to reply to.

Regards
DL



Not really. I just wonder how all you guys can ignore this biblical wisdom and justice which negate your use of a scapegoat.

You are calling these quotes lies.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.


Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.


Not that any here care that they are ignoring much of scriptures.

Regards
DL



I just put three quotes in that last post. They indicate that your sins and pay are your own and not transferable.

Are you ready to ignore them all just to keep your se on your scapegoat Jesus?

Your are a bright guy.
Tell us, who is more likely to use substitutionary punishment as justice, Satan or God?

Regards
DL



Only fools think the bible has real history.

Yet you have judged that a genocidal son murdering God is a good God.

Genocide is good. Who knew. Christians. No onder so many churches are closing.

Regards
DL I haven't judged a thing, f*ckwit. YOU appear to be the one judging others constantly, coming up with some pulled-out-your-a$$, twisted BS on neverending basis. WHO is the false prophet and preacher here?

You are wrong about the historical context of the Bible. It is indeed history. Just not one you want to hear.

Tell the truth ... The Man is God theory is just convenient to those who consider themselves supreme and unaccountable to a higher power. Rules are inconvenient for you, huh? So you have this wordsmithed fairly tale you spend all your time trying to foist on others. Registered that religion of yours, yet?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

that says you've deliberately ignored all the rest.

If a will says that "The home is not transferable anyone, except the elder son and his heirs."
The other children and the state or causal readers are simply not being honest if they say "it's says 'It's not transferable' therefore it's not transferable AT ALL"
They are LYING to others ...and themselves if they seriously believe that.




When the innocent person volunteers out of love, it's not immoral at all. Love and forgiveness trumps sin/immorality.
What's immoral and ungrateful are people ignoring, denying and mocking the sacrifice made for them.

If you would not step up to your own responsibility for your own actions and would let an innocent person suffer in your stead, you are not much of a moral man.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I haven't judged a thing, f*ckwit. YOU appear to be the one judging others constantly, coming up with some pulled-out-your-a$$, twisted BS on neverending basis. WHO is the false prophet and preacher here?

You are wrong about the historical context of the Bible. It is indeed history. Just not one you want to hear.

Tell the truth ... The Man is God theory is just convenient to those who consider themselves supreme and unaccountable to a higher power. Rules are inconvenient for you, huh? So you have this wordsmithed fairly tale you spend all your time trying to foist on others. Registered that religion of yours, yet?

Your fairy tale includes a talking serpent and donkey while mine does not.

Who is believing that fairy tales represent reality?

Not me. You do.

Regards
DL

[revelarts]

If you would not step up to your own responsibility for your own actions and would let an innocent person suffer in your stead, you are not much of a moral man.

Regards
DL

the fact that I am not a very moral man is the reason I need help.
I don't have the power to "step up" and save myself.
The best i can do is take my punishment, or alternativly take the gift of forgiveness given in love and be grateful.
The other thing is, not only did God/Jesus take our punishment voluntarily and paid the debt, He was able to take it, DIE But then COME BACK from it.
So though he as an innocent took the FULL weight of punishment of the guilty he was able to bear the full punishment, get it over with and return practically unscarred from the deed. Something that I ...no one else... could not do.
So it's "WIN WIN" not "I win you lose" DL.

[gabosaurus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVVeytSe2wc

[aboutime]

Your fairy tale includes a talking serpent and donkey while mine does not.

Who is believing that fairy tales represent reality?

Not me. You do.

Regards
DL



You just exposed yourself there, Gnostic. If you insist we have fairy tales, then you say "while mine does not"...tell us about your fairy tales? Too bad you call what you believe as Fairy Tales, while we Christians don't believe in fairy tales, while FAITH (unseen) guides us throughout our lives.
Want to tell us what YOUR favorite FAIRY TALE might be???

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

the fact that I am not a very moral man is the reason I need help.
I don't have the power to "step up" and save myself.
The best i can do is take my punishment, or alternativly take the gift of forgiveness given in love and be grateful.
The other thing is, not only did God/Jesus take our punishment voluntarily and paid the debt, He was able to take it, DIE But then COME BACK from it.
So though he as an innocent took the FULL weight of punishment of the guilty he was able to bear the full punishment, get it over with and return practically unscarred from the deed. Something that I ...no one else... could not do.
So it's "WIN WIN" not "I win you lose" DL.

Thank for showing your belief in supernatural B.S. and allowing your delusion to corrupt your morals.

Regards
DL

[revelarts]

Thank for showing your belief in supernatural B.S. and allowing your delusion to corrupt your morals.


OK,
But at this point would you answer some questions for me?
I've been very strait forward and given you the Basis for and the text i use for my beliefs can you be as strait forward?
without attacking others, and just explain simply WHAT you believe and and WHY?

1st of all
You do seem to claim THERE ARE MORALS and others like myself don't live up to the PROPER standards.
So Where do morals come from, if not based in a universal Supernatural source, and singular standard?
If there's no singular supernatural source? And if not wouldn't that mean that everyone... from Hitler to mother Teresa... are simply and ONLY operating from their own personal inner moral compasses. (or Animal urges and calling it morals).
And therefore how would other people have ANY standing to say others have "high" or "low" or "Good" or "Bad" morals? since it's all ONLY based on each persons FEELINGS about such things?


It's clear that logic can take folks anywhere, including justifying mass murder to "save the planet" or killing babies to relieve a family of a burden. Depending on what factors folks want to assume are most important or pragmatic and are plugged into the logical equations.

So what standards SHOULD everyone look to as the true and the NON-supernatural, NON-BS basis for morals and determining the highest values?
And what's the NON-BS-Supernatural basis for the value of ANY KIND of the individual human being, each less than a speck in the cosmos?
After that and what's the NON-BS-Supernatural basis for the values of the individual human vs the planet, humanity, animals, others comfort etc.?



please no need to attack others beliefs here,
You obviously have some strong beliefs of you own.
WHAT is your SOURCE for your truth? If it's just your PERSONAL opinion about morals and religion just SAY SO please.
If you refer to some Scared Text as authoritative, or something MORE authoritative than the Bible, or some authoritative supernatural (or Non-supernatual) teacher(s) with knowledge of some kind to inform your views please QUOTE THEM (and tell us why they should be trusted) so we all may be enlightened.

If it's just more stuff like "Christianity is Wrong", "God is a meanny", "the Bible and Jesus isn't ...but sometimes is... correct" jibber jaber, please please just say you've got nothing else to offer.

[aboutime]

Thank for showing your belief in supernatural B.S. and allowing your delusion to corrupt your morals.

Regards
DL


The only one who believes in the supernatural here is YOU Gnostic. Look at how hard you are trying to convince yourself...we are all wrong, and you are the only one who is right.

As for BS. Nobody here will ever take your propensity for showing BS as you do.

You win, hands down. You are funny, telling us we are delusional, and having corrupted morals. That coming from a practiced, expert in such BS is more than laughable, coming from you.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Jesus became sin and died.

God can die in your ideology can he?

Regards

DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Gnostic doesn't want us to remember that Jesus Died for Our Sins. Gnostic IMO, is a phony prophet, not unlike Jim Jones, or the Leader of Scientology...L. Ron Hubbard. Terribly intelligent Idiots.

God can die in your ideology can he?

Do you know how to read these?

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.


Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.


Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

umm Gnostic are you married? Have you ever given all your wages/pay check to your wife?
Why are you acting as if wages aren't transferable to those that didn't do the work for them?
It's not a difficult concept. And It's not a hidden concept, the apostles text over and over again clearly says that's exactly what happened.

2 Corinthians
"We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."



the whole living metaphor of the Mosesic sacrificial system is employed to describe it in the book of Hebrews especially but it's also mentioned in nearly ever new testament book.
The sacrifice/death of the innocent/clean/unblemished/holy/SINLESS animal is substituted for the death of the guilty offender.
John the baptist said when he saw Jesus as an adult "Behold the LAMB of GOD that takes away the sin of the world."

Gnostic you have to want to miss that idea not to see that.

Would Jesus ignore these quotes the way you do?

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.


We are to be our own lambs.

Regards
DL

[revelarts]

Would Jesus ignore these quotes the way you do?

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.


We are to be our own lambs.

Regards
DL

I've replied to that already in post #20 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?60244-If-the-wages-of-sin-is-death-and-Jesus-died-does-that-make-Jesus-a-sinner&p=878851#post878851) and #24.
So can you reply to my previous post #32?

[Abbey Marie]

Nice job doing Satan's work, Gnostic.

[Black Diamond]

Nice job doing Satan's work, Gnostic.
Satan knows the scriptures better.

[Black Diamond]

Wonder if gnostic still plays twister.

[Abbey Marie]

Satan knows the scriptures better.


:laugh:

[aboutime]

No matter how hard he tries. There is no way on Earth that he will ever replace OUR faith. He/She speaks like the devoted members of ISIS who use religious beliefs (Koran) to decide WHO lives, and WHO dies...merely because Gnostic doesn't want us to believe anything except what Gnostic preaches as the FALSE PROPHET of hatred.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I've replied to that already in post #20 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?60244-If-the-wages-of-sin-is-death-and-Jesus-died-does-that-make-Jesus-a-sinner&p=878851#post878851) and #24.
So can you reply to my previous post #32?

You put your cherry picked view against my quotes. That is hardly answering honestly.

You seem to be giving authority to other sources for your moral views.

Why can you not stand on your own thinking?

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
Why do you give authority to a genocidal God?

Do you see Yahweh as a good and moral God?

Can a genocidal God who kills when he could just as easily cure be a good God?

Good God I hope not?

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Nice job doing Satan's work, Gnostic.

I am not doing Yahweh's work.

I try to present a moral view. Not Christianity's.

Regards
DL

[Gunny]

I am not doing Yahweh's work.

I try to present a moral view. Not Christianity's.

Regards
DLLearn how to debate. You constantly come on here playing this stupid little game of semantics that nullifies your every own word. Are you a Democrat? You have to be. Your interpretations of the Bible are right in line with the Democratic interpretation of the Constitution. Nothing but words/phrases out of context and/or outright lies.

So tell you what. Try doing it right. My argument is simple: Faith based on a promise. The onus is on you to prove me wrong. Hint for the dumb: Key word being "Proof."

Provide your proof/evidence. ONLY, it cannot be cherrypicked words or phrases misconstrued to represent your lies. Actual facts only. No deflections ... PROVE ME WRONG. Bring your fucking A game.

[aboutime]

The Heretic

The Heretic is the most prominent and perhaps the most dangerous of the false teachers. Peter warned against him in his second letter. “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction” (2 Peter 2:1). The Heretic is the person who teaches what blatantly contradicts an essential teaching of the Christian faith. He is a gregarious figure, a natural leader teaching just enough truth to mask his deadly error. Yet in denying the faith and celebrating what is false, he leads his followers from the safety of orthodoxy to the peril of heresy.



noun
1.
a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church.
2.
Roman Catholic Church. a baptized Roman Catholic who willfully and persistently rejects any article of faith.
3.
anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/heretic

[Abbey Marie]

I am not doing Yahweh's work.

I try to present a moral view. Not Christianity's.

Regards
DL

I said Satan, not Yahweh. Are you so delusional and Christianphobic that you equate the two?
If you do, you will never see me reply to another of your posts.

[Gunny]

I said Satan, not Yahweh. Are you so delusional and Christianphobic that you equate the two?
If you do, you will never see me reply to another of your posts.You know he has to be that Christianphobic. How many years has it been and to what lengths has he gone to prove his fear of a God he doesn't believe in? I mean really. If there's no God, then what's his gripe? He should be enjoying his living for no reason for as long as he can, knowing that when the ride's over, so's the party for HIM; instead of, spending his life railing against a non-entity and wasting his little precious time.

As for me, I'm trying to contemplate getting to Heaven and not having a knee brace :)

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I said Satan, not Yahweh. Are you so delusional and Christianphobic that you equate the two?
If you do, you will never see me reply to another of your posts.

Who is more likely to use genocide, Yahweh or Satan?

Regards
DL

[Gunny]

Who is more likely to use genocide, Yahweh or Satan?

Regards
DLIn other words, you have no real position and wish only to continue your dishonest wordsmithing. Don't be surprised that I am NOT surprised. I expected as much.

You really have nothing of use to say, and ignore or hide from what you can't handle -- an honest argument. You aren't changing any minds here, one way or the other so why bother? I suspect that reason would have a lot more to do with where you aren't allowed to go rather than where you are.

Post away. Just know you are seen for what you are. Not the first by any means. Just another.

[Abbey Marie]

Who is more likely to use genocide, Yahweh or Satan?

Regards
DL

You are not worth the pixels. Sayonara.

[aboutime]

Who is more likely to use genocide, Yahweh or Satan?

Regards
DL


I'm done with you Gnostic. You obviously have a mental problem, as some call Brain Damage, and others call NUTS. You need help, if you are wondering why so many people honestly think you are a waste of time, and you are not worth talking to, or with.

Here is something you should consult: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3012619/

Otherwise. You should contact:https://www.democrats.org/organization/the-democratic-national-committee

[BoogyMan]

If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

To sin is to do something immoral and thus create a victim to that sin. I cannot see all sins as something that would condemn us to eternal suffering and death in hell or the lake of fire as that goes against the biblical notion of justice being an eye for an eye or that the penalty should fit the crime/sin.

What sin did Jesus do to earn his death?

I see Jesus’ death as more of suicide than sacrifice as he initiated his own suicide by getting Judas to betray him.

Could Jesus’ sin have been suicide?


If not, what do you think his sin was?

Regards
DL



There is so much doltery in this single post that it is hard to know where to start.

Christ did not "get Judas" to do anything. Judas was of the character to do what he did, Christ knew it, and willingly took on the punishment for the sins of an unworthy world.

Have you even read the Bible?

[aboutime]

There is so much doltery in this single post that it is hard to know where to start.

Christ did not "get Judas" to do anything. Judas was of the character to do what he did, Christ knew it, and willingly took on the punishment for the sins of an unworthy world.

Have you even read the Bible?


BoogyMan. I suspect Gnostic probably tried to write his own version of something that looked like a bible. Sadly, I also suspect Gnostic's version had chapters from LARRY FLINT'S HUSTLER, and the DNC manual chapters on Saul Alinsky's methods, plus the L. Ron Hubberd Volumes on How to Live your life, without a family, friends, and sign a Billion year agreement to study Gnostic Facts.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

In other words, you have no real position and wish only to continue your dishonest wordsmithing. Don't be surprised that I am NOT surprised. I expected as much.

You really have nothing of use to say, and ignore or hide from what you can't handle -- an honest argument. You aren't changing any minds here, one way or the other so why bother? I suspect that reason would have a lot more to do with where you aren't allowed to go rather than where you are.

Post away. Just know you are seen for what you are. Not the first by any means. Just another.

I am not surprised that you are hypocrite enough to not answer a simple moral question.

Not uprising that your moral sense has you following a genocidal son murdering prick.

Tuck tail and keep running.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

You are not worth the pixels. Sayonara.

See the post just above.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

There is so much doltery in this single post that it is hard to know where to start.

Christ did not "get Judas" to do anything. Judas was of the character to do what he did, Christ knew it, and willingly took on the punishment for the sins of an unworthy world.

Have you even read the Bible?

Yes, and here are three quotes that you have not read, or if read, did not understand.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.


Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Do you accept your responsibility for your own wickedness or do you put your cross on the shoulders of another?

Regard
DL

[Gunny]

I am not surprised that you are hypocrite enough to not answer a simple moral question.

Not uprising that your moral sense has you following a genocidal son murdering prick.

Tuck tail and keep running.

Regards
DLNothing simple nor moral NOR RELEVANT about your contrived "question".

I've gone nowhere, jackass. When you get something honest, let me know. Until then ... YOU GOT YOUR ASS DISMISSED BY ABBEY! Made my day! Abbey is nice to everyone. :laugh::laugh: Or almost, so it seems you turdburglar :laugh::laugh: