Is Kneeling/Sitting During the National Anthem Disrespectful to Our Flag/Nation?

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Let's just take a quick poll of the microcosm here and see how people feel about this issue. It is my belief that the ones in favor of this practice are the minority, and invariably leftists who seem to have many anti American views in the first place.

So let's take a poll... the question is simple...

... DO YOU FEEL IT IS DISRESPECTFUL TO OUR FLAG AND THE NATION TO KNEEL OR SIT WHILE THE COLORS ARE PRESENTED AND THE NATIONAL ANTHEM IS PLAYED?

Yes or no...

[darin]

Neither our flag nor our Nation has real feelings or need of respect.

I think it's dumb - yup. And it's unappreciative. Sure.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Neither our flag nor our Nation has real feelings or need of respect.

I think it's dumb - yup. And it's unappreciative. Sure.
I am "our nation," and yes I do have real feelings, and our flag represents me.

And if you have no respect for me, than I have no respect for you.

[darin]

I am "our nation," and yes I do have real feelings, and our flag represents me.

And if you have no respect for me, than I have no respect for you.

Well that's childish. I don't choose whom I respect (or love, etc) based on how I think they are treating me. You get to decide what offends you - what is worth your time and energy. I choose to not be bothered by stupid people; thus, if somebody wants to sit during the anthem have at it.


Let me run this by you - you see me sitting during the national anthem - are you going to be offended? Would you say something?

Follow-up: What if I found a veteran wearing a beard disrespectful to his or her service?

[PostmodernProphet]

of course its disrespectful......its intended to be so.....however to believe they don't have a right to be disrespectful is also disrespectful of our nation and its laws.....

[revelarts]

Let's just take a quick poll of the microcosm here and see how people feel about this issue. It is my belief that the ones in favor of this practice are the minority, and invariably leftists who seem to have many anti American views in the first place.

So let's take a poll... the question is simple...

... DO YOU FEEL IT IS DISRESPECTFUL TO OUR FLAG AND THE NATION TO KNEEL OR SIT WHILE THE COLORS ARE PRESENTED AND THE NATIONAL ANTHEM IS PLAYED?

Yes or no...
I think it doesn't matter which OPINION is the majority or minority.
...and is asking on this board a scientific poll?

look the FACT is people have somewhat different but EQUALLY respectful views of what the flag and anthem REPRESENT.
And how they should be honored or NOT.

Freedom of opinion is an AMERICAN virtue. LIBERTY is what the Flag ultimately represents. the military men and woman, black, white, red and yellow died to defend the nations Ideals (the hope and growing reality) of Liberty, Justice and Equality.

LOCK STEP patriotism and jingoistic BLIND reverence of the symbols of a nation can begin to smell of totalitarianism, fascism, and communism. Worship of the State and the Military. North Korea demands respect of it's flag, symbols, Military and great leaders as well.


but to answer your question directly
DO YOU FEEL IT IS DISRESPECTFUL TO OUR FLAG AND THE NATION TO KNEEL OR SIT WHILE THE COLORS ARE PRESENTED AND THE NATIONAL ANTHEM IS PLAYED?

It depends on the INTENT of the one doing the Sitting or Kneeling.
If folks were honest they'd have to ask each person, WHY, rather than assume general disrespect.

As far as me being a "Leftist".
Uh NO. I'm no leftist.

As far as having "...many anti-American views in the first place..."
Well if having "many anti-American views" means being honest about the good, the bad and the ugly of America,
wanting America to live up to the Constitution,
wanting it's officials to obey the rule of law and liberty,
wanting the U.S. to regularly aim for the Christian Ideals we talk about,
if that makes me "ANTI-American" in some people eyes well... so be it.

If being "PRO-American" or a REAL right wing patriot means "my country right or wrong" then sorry, I'm not PRO-American or a right wing patriot.

[michiganFats]

I don't think it's disrespectful because the idea that we should all stand for the anthem comes from the US Code, it's illegal not to stand for it although that's never enforced but I don't think we should respect bad laws intended for enforce a military-style standard of conduct on the public at large.

[gabosaurus]

It is very disrespectful and unethical. Displaying pride and respect for the symbols of our country is not a conservative or liberal thing. The flag shouldn't be a racial or religious battleground. It should be an American thing.
At the same time, a great many men and women died so that the rest of us could have the freedom to do whatever we feel like doing.

[pete311]

ugh do we really need another thread on this to rehash all of our positions. Nothing better than a bunch of white folk telling a black man there is no institutional racism and no reason to protest.

[darin]

I'm black

[Black Diamond]

ugh do we really need another thread on this to rehash all of our positions. Nothing better than a bunch of white folk telling a black man there is no institutional racism and no reason to protest.
If marshawn (or more appropriately Colin) comes out tomorrow with a t shirt that says "AIDS KILLS FAGS DEAD", I'll wait for you to support him and not want him to be disciplined.

[Gunny]

It's disrespectful. As it is meant to be. If one is sincere in one's protest over this Nation enough to disrespect the symbol that represents the ideals behind it ... leave. Man the f*ck up and prove you got the REAL balls to stand behind your mouth. Don't sit here bitching with our milk and honey running down your chin. Go somewhere that suits your idealism better. ISIS is recruiting.

[darin]

I suppose i dont need to get upset to prove how offended i am.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I see there are a few here that have no problem pissing on America's most sacred symbols... nice to know who they are.

I never knew patriotism was "childish" either... baffling how one can come to those conclusions.

[Gunny]

I suppose i dont need to get upset to prove how offended i am.I'll take this as a general statement and run with it. I, for one, am not upset. I DO have an opinion.

Otherwise, my school teacher daughter and the grandchildren went back to school today and I'm about as giddy as I get :). TRUE freedom comes with the attendance bell!

[michiganFats]

I see there are a few here that have no problem pissing on America's most sacred symbols... nice to know who they are.

I never knew patriotism was "childish" either... baffling how one can come to those conclusions.

Have you ever been watching TV late at night when the channel shuts down for the day? If you have, when they played the National Anthem did you stand up all alone in your house or is that something you just reserve for show when others are watching?

Caring about the well-being of your country isn't childish but false displays of patriotism could be called that.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I'm not upset either... a little disgusted and disappointed, but not upset.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Have you ever been watching TV late at night when the channel shuts down for the day? If you have, when they played the National Anthem did you stand up all alone in your house or is that something you just reserve for show when others are watching?

Caring about the well-being of your country isn't childish but false displays of patriotism could be called that.
I haven't seen a channel "shut down" for probably 35 years. Where in the hell do you live?

So when thousands of people stand to show their respect for our flag and national anthem, that's... a "FALSE DISPAY OF PATRIOTISM?"

Can you explain just how you know all these people are FAKING it?

[darin]

So - again - if you saw me sitting dueing the anthem - which some folks here seem to worship more than country; not unlike those who worship the bible more than God - would you be offended? Would you speak to me?

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I can only speak for Air Force bases, but if you happen to be driving on the base either in the morning or the afternoon when they raised or lowered the flag, and they played Reveille in the morning and Taps in the afternoon over the base P.A. system during, ALL traffic on base had to STOP, and you were supposed to face towards the flag, as best you could, even if you couldn't see it.

Maybe this is why I hold the flag is such high regard, because I'm a veteran of 8 years of military service, and I was taught to respect the flag because of what it stands for. Maybe I just have a deeper connection with our flag than civilians.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

So - again - if you saw me sitting dueing the anthem - which some folks here seem to worship more than country; not unlike those who worship the bible more than God - would you be offended? Would you speak to me?
Yes, and if you were near me, yes.

[michiganFats]

I haven't seen a channel "shut down" for probably 35 years. Where in the hell do you live?

So when thousands of people stand to show their respect for our flag and national anthem, that's... a "FALSE DISPAY OF PATRIOTISM?"

Can you explain just how you know all these people are FAKING it?

I haven't seen it in a few years now but you have seen it so did you stand up or did you turn the TV off?

Doing the things you need to do in order to be a productive citizen and an asset to whatever community you belong to is a 24/7 job, standing for the anthem doesn't do anything to help the country and doesn't prove love for the country in any way. It is an empty gesture.

[michiganFats]

So - again - if you saw me sitting dueing the anthem - which some folks here seem to worship more than country; not unlike those who worship the bible more than God - would you be offended? Would you speak to me?

The only time I've ever said anything to anyone about this was when two people at a hockey game were talking during the anthem.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I haven't seen it in a few years now but you have seen it so did you stand up or did you turn the TV off?

Doing the things you need to do in order to be a productive citizen and an asset to whatever community you belong to is a 24/7 job, standing for the anthem doesn't do anything to help the country and doesn't prove love for the country in any way. It is an empty gesture.
Equating a test pattern on tv to the flag being walked out and a band playing the national anthem at a PUBLIC event is like comparing pulling your car over to the side of road while driving because you heard a siren noise on the radio as opposed to having a cop car behind you with the siren and lights on.

I find your comment that standing to show your pride and patriotism for our flag and national anthem is an "emptry gesture," absolutely disgusting and insulting, and I believe that's what you WANT it to be. You leftist always do put blame on America first, and anything that on the surface that you can latch onto that either purports or displays disrespect to this nation, you people are all for it.

[revelarts]

Maybe this is why I hold the flag is such high regard, because I'm a veteran of 8 years of military service, and I was taught to respect the flag because of what it stands for. Maybe I just have a deeper connection with our flag than civilians.

Sure having a deeper connection to the flag as a member of military makes sense.
So What exactly were you taught during your time in the military HPDrifter?
what does it "stand for" as far as the military's indoctrination is concerned.

"civilians" ... ie other Americans.

[aboutime]

Sure having a deeper connection to the flag as a member of military makes sense.
So What exactly were you taught during your time in the military HPDrifter?
what does it "stand for" as far as the military's indoctrination is concerned.

"civilians" ... ie other Americans.

Rev. One question for you. Did you respect your parents, minister, brothers, sisters, other people you don't know?

We Veterans were not TAUGHT during our time in the military to respect our Flag, or the National Anthem. Contrary to todays society abnormalities. OUR PARENTS taught us to be proud to be AMERICANS. In doing so. We respected our FLAG, and our NATIONAL ANTHEM.
Any American who questions our sense of respect for our country, flag, or national anthem IMO isn't a genuine American citizen because they feel Political Correctness is far more important than HONORING your own nation in any way.
And. Because we are veterans. We all dedicated our lives to protecting YOUR RIGHT to be as DISRESPECTFUL as you want.

[michiganFats]

Equating a test pattern on tv to the flag being walked out and a band playing the national anthem at a PUBLIC event is like comparing pulling your car over to the side of road while driving because you heard a siren noise on the radio as opposed to having a cop car behind you with the siren and lights on.

I find your comment that standing to show your pride and patriotism for our flag and national anthem is an "emptry gesture," absolutely disgusting and insulting, and I believe that's what you WANT it to be. You leftist always do put blame on America first, and anything that on the surface that you can latch onto that either purports or displays disrespect to this nation, you people are all for it.


I didn't mention a test pattern and I rarely see bands playing the anthem at games.

This is America, you can be disgusted with my opinion all you want but I'm sticking with it. I know too many people who talk a really good game about patriotism but don't know anything about this country. I'm not saying that's you, I don't know you, I'm talking about those I do know.

Your other comments seem a little desperate to me. I've already explained why I don't think sitting or kneeling is disrespect although I do admit that some people do definitely mean it to be taken that way but now because I disagree with you I'm an America hating leftist? Are you going to spit on me?

[PostmodernProphet]

I'm black
PM your mailing address.....I will send you soap......

[PostmodernProphet]

So - again - if you saw me sitting dueing the anthem - which some folks here seem to worship more than country; not unlike those who worship the bible more than God - would you be offended? Would you speak to me?

don't I have a first amendment right to turn my back on you?........

[darin]

Yes, and if you were near me, yes.

How would you feel if i told you my service-connected disabikty made it difficult to stand at the moment?

[darin]

don't I have a first amendment right to turn my back on you?........

That reply makes no sense

[High_Plains_Drifter]

How would you feel if i told you my service-connected disabikty made it difficult to stand at the moment?
Then I'd respectfully say "sorry for bothering you, please, remain seated."

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Sure having a deeper connection to the flag as a member of military makes sense.
So What exactly were you taught during your time in the military HPDrifter?
what does it "stand for" as far as the military's indoctrination is concerned.

"civilians" ... ie other Americans.
I already know how you feel, and you know how I feel. There's not much else that needs to be said.

But now I see you want to move this conversation to the next level by now insulting my military service and training as "indoctrination."

This is where I'm done, because if just a pissing match and throwing around insults is where you want to go, I'm telling you, I'm a fucking pro at that, but right now I'd rather not. I've seen everyone else acting very civil voicing their opinions so that's what I'll do.

Find someone else to insult and instigate with.

[aboutime]

How would you feel if i told you my service-connected disabikty made it difficult to stand at the moment?

I would see it differently...as a Veteran myself with disabilities that also make it difficult to stand. So...I salute, or cover my heart instead. Excuses are a dime a dozen.

[revelarts]

I already know how you feel, and you know how I feel. There's not much else that needs to be said.

But now I see you want to move this conversation to the next level by now insulting my military service and training as "indoctrination."

This is where I'm done, because if just a pissing match and throwing around insults is where you want to go, I'm telling you, I'm a fucking pro at that, but right now I'd rather not. I've seen everyone else acting very civil voicing their opinions so that's what I'll do.

Find someone else to insult and instigate with.

no problem,
I can cross the line from time to time. though i try to keep it civil.

my response was mainly meant to imply that those Americans without military service training's idea about the flag and anthem are just as valid as your own.

my apologies for any offense.

[darin]

Then I'd respectfully say "sorry for bothering you, please, remain seated."

Or maybe i'd just say "relax. "The nation" or "the flag" doesnt need you to defend its honor. Mind your business."

Or what if i said to fuck off? Wouldnt change the fact your assumption would be misplaced and your comments rude.

So - mayne instead of moral outrage we all simmer the fuck down or use that frustration as fuel to volunteer. Or teach. Or otherwise make a difference.

[darin]

I would see it differently...as a Veteran myself with disabilities that also make it difficult to stand. So...I salute, or cover my heart instead. Excuses are a dime a dozen.

Except this is about standing specifically. And its not appropriate to salute while seated. Its not about am "excuse" - its about intent. Its about how people really feel rahter than their action. Ots about stopping the focus on what you think is going on, and living the example of respect and kindness and all that

[PostmodernProphet]

That reply makes no sense

why not?.......you made it sound as if because someone has a right to kneel during the anthem we were wrong not to speak to them.......I have a constitutional right to consider them assholes not worth talking to........

[PostmodernProphet]

Or maybe i'd just say "relax. "The nation" or "the flag" doesnt need you to defend its honor. Mind your business."

Or what if i said to fuck off? Wouldnt change the fact your assumption would be misplaced and your comments rude.

So - mayne instead of moral outrage we all simmer the fuck down or use that frustration as fuel to volunteer. Or teach. Or otherwise make a difference.
you realize that just a worthless rationalization, given that these guys are not kneeling during the anthem because if their health........why don't we have a right to have an opinion about them?.....

[aboutime]

Except this is about standing specifically. And its not appropriate to salute while seated. Its not about am "excuse" - its about intent. Its about how people really feel rahter than their action. Ots about stopping the focus on what you think is going on, and living the example of respect and kindness and all that


darin. We just went through eight years of apologies, excuses, and appeasement by another person who DISRESPECTED all of us, the flag, the anthem, and tried to sell us down the river by kissing MUSLIM Butts.
I will defend America until the day I die. If anyone doesn't like my opinion tough.

[Abbey Marie]

I haven't seen it in a few years now but you have seen it so did you stand up or did you turn the TV off?

Doing the things you need to do in order to be a productive citizen and an asset to whatever community you belong to is a 24/7 job, standing for the anthem doesn't do anything to help the country and doesn't prove love for the country in any way. It is an empty gesture.

Neither does giving your wife roses on her birthday help her or prove your love for her. Yet it is a gesture done by millions every year.

[darin]

why not?.......you made it sound as if because someone has a right to kneel during the anthem we were wrong not to speak to them.......I have a constitutional right to consider them assholes not worth talking to........

You make wild assumptions about what words mean

[darin]

darin. We just went through eight years of apologies, excuses, and appeasement by another person who DISRESPECTED all of us, the flag, the anthem, and tried to sell us down the river by kissing MUSLIM Butts.
I will defend America until the day I die. If anyone doesn't like my opinion tough.

To what end? Whats your expected outcome of a righteous tantrum when folks offend you? You arent defending America. You are trying to send a message to those unwilling to learn.

[michiganFats]

Neither does giving you wife roses on her birthday help her or prove your love for her. Yet it is a gesture done by millions every year.

True. It is a gesture.

[revelarts]

Neither does giving your wife roses on her birthday help her or prove your love for her. Yet it is a gesture done by millions every year.

not a bad analogy.

if the wife is generally pretty great... but has been on purpose, repeatedly and unapologetically putting her cigarettes out on her least favorite child's skin. Would the husband by default be indicating that he didn't love her If he decided NOT to give her flowers on her birthday to highlight his concern over the problem?

Seems like a MILD response really.
But the wife might not see the problem or worse insist there's nothing wrong with what she's done and plans on continuing to do so.
And ONLY see the lack of flowers a horrible personal offense ...to her and all her wonderfulness over the years.

She could yell at him to just get a DIVORCE since he "HATES" her so much.
But his point is not to divorce her, he does love her. He just wants her to 1st acknowledge and to stop the unacceptable behavior.

the husband has gotten her flowers before, and likely will again as a matter of course, she's generally a great gal, but she's got some horrible blind spots and can be even better, the cigarette issue needs to be addressed,
the flowers are not the real point... of their love or the problem.

[darin]

not a bad analogy.

if the wife is generally pretty great... but has been on purpose, repeatedly and unapologetically putting her cigarettes out on her least favorite child's skin. Would the husband by default be indicating that he didn't love her If he decided NOT to give her flowers on her birthday to highlight his concern over the problem?


Seems to me you believe the fantasies about the nation somehow oppressing its citizens...if you're not aware-enough to believe that there's no use or hope for reasonable discussion.

Larry Elders may be able to convince you of truth.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgK4HaYi3zg

There's no reason NOT to stand for the anthem because the nation is incredible. But choosing NOT to stand isn't really offensive to the flag - which is not a sentient being and cannot feel offense.

[revelarts]

Darin,
we've done this before.
But I've been talking about the overbearing nature of MANY police and police depts for quite some time.
I've never limited to just a minority issue either. It's just more pronounced there and among lower income Americans.
Seems you don't want to believe even the POLICE officers I've posted that admit the various problems people are knelling for Darin.
frankly I wish all the talk wasn't racial because the problem is universal.

Not to mention the over militarization of police, the unconstitutional and criminal asset forfeiture programs, the various unconstitutional and biased stop and frisk, the bias implementation of the the "drug war" on the lower classes. Admittedly targeting blacks and the antiwar left according to one Nixon aid. the tragic and avoidable harm and deaths of many mentally ill, mentally challenged and people physically impaired so they cannot 'OBEY LAWFUL ORDERS' to the satisfaction of some poorly trained officers... etc..

so IMO Elder's seems to be an earnest fella but he's out of touch on the big picture here... as you seemed determined to be Darin.
SO I guess the police are PERFECT, nothing to see here, just few bad apples.
OK if you and Larry Say So it must be true!! just don't look at all the blood and string of dead unarmed bodies.
But i know a quite a few white people that are now afraid of what police will do when they are stopped.. if they make some move (or fail to move) in a way that a FEARFUL and poorly trained officer THINKS is "LIFE THREATENING".


>For the record AGAIN.. not ALL cops are bad... some are d@mn near Batman, and some departments are OUTSTANDING and i thank God for them.<




Asked about the "war on drugs" begun in the Nixon Administration....“You want to know what this was really all about?” he asked with the bluntness of a man who, after public disgrace and a stretch in federal prison, had little left to protect. “The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black people, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”
John Ehrlichman counsel and Assistant to the President for Domestic Affairs under President Richard Nixon.
https://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/legalize-it-all/

...A former New York City narcotics detective testified in court that planting drugs on innocent people was common practice, a quick and easy way to boost arrest numbers. According to the New York Daily News, the practice is known among NYPD officers as “flaking,” and officers in Brooklyn and Queens narcotics squads were doing a whole lot of it.
...“One of the consequences of the war on drugs isthat police officers are pressured to make large numbers of arrests, and it’s easy for some of the less honest cops to plant evidence on innocent people,” said Gabriel Sayegh of the DPA. “The drug war inevitably leads to crooked policing — and quotas further incentivize such practices.”
...The marijuana arrests, the group says, are the result of “illegal searches” by the NYPD, as part of stop-and-frisks...
'"Did you observe with some frequency this ...practice which is taking someone who was seemingly not guilty of a crime and laying the drugs on them?" Justice Gustin Reichbach (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Gustin+Reichbach) asked Anderson."Yes, multiple times," he replied.
The judge pressed Anderson on whether he ever gave a thought to the damage he was inflicting on the innocent.
"It was something I was seeing a lot of, whether it was from supervisors or undercovers and even investigators," he said.
"It's almost like you have no emotion with it, that they attach the bodies to it, they're going to be out of jail tomorrow anyway; nothing is going to happen to them anyway."
-----------------------------------------------

Michael A. Wood Jr. @MichaelAWoodJr
So here we go. I'm going to start Tweeting the things I've seen & participated in, in policing that is corrupt, intentional or not.
…..
A detective slapping a completely innocent female in the face for bumping into him, coming out of a corner chicken store.
……
Punting a handcuffed, face down, suspect in the face, after a foot chase. My handcuffs, not my boot or suspect
….
CCTV cameras turning as soon as a suspect is close to caught.
……
Swearing in court and PC docs that suspect dropped CDS duringunbroken visual pursuit when neither was true.
[Note: PC docs = “probable cause documents,” orthe papers police file to obtain a warrant. CDS = controlled dangerous substances.]
…..
Jacking up and illegally searching thousands of people with no legal justification
…….
Having other people write PC statements, who were never there because they could twist it into legality.
[Note: “PC statements” = probable causestatements, or statements from witnesses that police can then use to obtain a warrant.]
…..
Summonsing officers who weren't there so they could collect the overtime.
…….
Targeting16-24 year old black males essentially because we arrest them more, perpetrating the circle of arresting them more.
.........

Darin there's a real problem, sorry if that burst people's fantasy of what SOME police are like.
But somehow I suspect that you..even as "a black guy".. don't have the heart to see the full picture.

[darin]

Darin,
we've done this before.
But I've been talking about the overbearing nature of MANY police and police depts for quite some time.
I've never limited to just a minority issue either. It's just more pronounced there and among lower income Americans.
Seems you don't want to believe even the POLICE officers I've posted that admit the various problems people are knelling for Darin.
frankly I wish all the talk wasn't racial because the problem is universal.

Not to mention the over militarization of police, the unconstitutional and criminal asset forfeiture programs, the various unconstitutional and biased stop and frisk, the bias implementation of the the "drug war" on the lower classes. Admittedly targeting blacks and the antiwar left according to one Nixon aid. the tragic and avoidable harm and deaths of many mentally ill, mentally challenged and people physically impaired so they cannot 'OBEY LAWFUL ORDERS' to the satisfaction of some poorly trained officers... etc..

so IMO Elder's seems to be an earnest fella but he's out of touch on the big picture here... as you seemed determined to be Darin.
SO I guess the police are PERFECT, nothing to see here, just few bad apples.
OK if you and Larry Say So it must be true!! just don't look at all the blood and string of dead unarmed bodies.
But i know a quite a few white people that are now afraid of what police will do when they are stopped.. if they make some move (or fail to move) in a way that a FEARFUL and poorly trained officer THINKS is "LIFE THREATENING".


>For the record AGAIN.. not ALL cops are bad... some are d@mn near Batman, and some departments are OUTSTANDING and i thank God for them.<







Darin there's a real problem, sorry if that burst people's fantasy of what SOME police are like.
But somehow I suspect that you..even as "a black guy".. don't have the heart to see the full picture.


There's no problem - not any more than whatever exists in the hearts of people. There is NO systemic oppression of ANY race. I suppose it could be argued the only folks oppressed - like, rejected for scholarships, jobs, or promotions, are those suffering under Affirmative Action...you know...white folk. I think I'm honest enough to believe folks like Larry Elder - because his analysis is SPOT ON. Because your type of point of view seeks only to harm folks by lying to them - telling them they are a victim and "TheMan" is out to get them. That viewpoint is horseshit and appeases the lazy. See, you're using "Not seeing the big picture" but you cannot through stats or otherwise even DEFINE the big picture you claim to be seeing.

[revelarts]

There's no problem - not any more than whatever exists in the hearts of people. There is NO systemic oppression of ANY race. I suppose it could be argued the only folks oppressed - like, rejected for scholarships, jobs, or promotions, are those suffering under Affirmative Action...you know...white folk. I think I'm honest enough to believe folks like Larry Elder - because his analysis is SPOT ON. Because your type of point of view seeks only to harm folks by lying to them - telling them they are a victim and "TheMan" is out to get them. That viewpoint is horseshit and appeases the lazy. See, you're using "Not seeing the big picture" but you cannot through stats or otherwise even DEFINE the big picture you claim to be seeing.

As I thought... zero acknowledgement of any of the brief testimony i posted.

but OK,
But don't let that Affirmative action MAN" is out to get you talk make you believe anyone's a victim brother.
there ARE NO victims ...of job loss or scholarships or promotions ... no oppressed... it's only in their hearts.

[darin]

As I thought... zero acknowledgement of any of the brief testimony i posted.

but OK,
But don't let that Affirmative action MAN" is out to get you talk make you believe anyone's a victim brother.
there ARE NO victims ...of job loss or scholarships or promotions ... no oppressed... it's only in their hearts.

Because your testimony is worthless - it doesnt point to systemic or national oppression of any race, creed or culture. I acknowledge logic, reason and facts.

There are no victims suffering through institutional or systemic national racism or oppression. Not today. Not in the last 50 years. Get over it.

[revelarts]

So Darin you reject all the police testimony i post out of hand... and only listen to things you agreewith...i mean Logic etc... OK

Darin, you're wrong, demonstrable so but you won't look at anything i posted honestly so i won't waste my time.
I've tried before. there are whole threads where i posted the evidence of the VARIOUS police issues i mentioned above, one of which is a CONTINUED --though lessened-- bais against the poor and racial minorities.


here's part of the problem though.
If one side says "everything is PERFECT, I DON'T see any problems!". And the other says, "it's ALL racist elitists SH!T that needs destruction!
Then there NO room for reality to get a word in. It seems a lot of people are more interested in protecting or advancing their personal paradigms of how they imagine the world really is.

Police am Good Hero men and fair to all!
Police is all evil, wicked, trixies bossman!

Both are LIES.
the reality seems to be that U.S. policing needs real improvement on several fronts.
Many departments are GREAT. Some are as corrupt and racist they come. Some have few bad apples.
NO group or person is perfect, all can improve.

[darin]

So Darin you reject all the police testimony i post out of hand... and only listen to things you agreewith...i mean Logic etc... OK

*ALL the testimony? Nothing there points to systemic racism or oppression. use your brain.



Darin, you're wrong, demonstrable so but you won't look at anything i posted honestly so i won't waste my time.
I've tried before. there are whole threads where i posted the evidence of the VARIOUS police issues i mentioned above, one of which is a CONTINUED --though lessened-- bais against the poor and racial minorities.


Because you shift the topic. You may show instances of displayed racism but nothing - in fact NOTHING - shows our society is somehow oppressing anyone.



here's part of the problem though.
If one side says "everything is PERFECT, I DON'T see any problems!". And the other says, "it's ALL racist elitists SH!T that needs destruction!
Then there NO room for reality to get a word in. It seems a lot of people are more interested in protecting or advancing their personal paradigms of how they imagine the world really is.

Police am Good Hero men and fair to all!
Police is all evil, wicked, trixies bossman!

Both are LIES.
the reality seems to be that U.S. policing needs real improvement on several fronts.
Many departments are GREAT. Some are as corrupt and racist they come. Some have few bad apples.
NO group or person is perfect, all can improve.

There is NO systemic or institutional racism oppressing ANYONE in today's America. 'some' people are corrupt. Mmmhmm. Yup. For sure. "Some" bad apples out there.

But 'some' cannot oppress the masses. 'some' cannot hold-down an entire population.

You go from 'There is systemic and institutional racism oppressing minorities' to 'No group is perfect - there are always one or two bad actors'.

That's contradictory.

[revelarts]

*ALL the testimony? Nothing there points to systemic racism or oppression. use your brain.


Originally Posted by former Baltimore police officer Michael A. Wood Jr.
"Jacking up and illegally searching thousands of people with no legal justification
Targeting16-24 year old black males essentially because we arrest them more, perpetrating the circle of arresting them more."
So Darin, when it gets to TEN thousand in one city is it systemic racism in that city then? SO do you attribute thousands and targeting black males to "a few bad apples"?
Or What EXACTLY is your standard for "systemic"?





Because you shift the topic. You may show instances of displayed racism but nothing - in fact NOTHING - shows our society is somehow oppressing anyone.
I'm not switching topics, i'm talking about the BROAD issue of various police problems, including the minority bias of various Law Enforcement agencies.
I'm not talking about "society" i'm talking about various POLICE and various parts of criminal justice system. use your brain.
I've made it fairly clear the issue is nearly non-existent in some areas and a real problem elsewhere.
Systematic in some places and a problem of some "bad apples" elsewhere.
(bad apples that somehow stay on the force and/or often get promoted. NOT BY SOCIETY but by the dept heads and city leadership.)

I'm not sure what society you're talking about.
I'm talking a WIDE SPREAD problem among real U.S. police depts, of various magnitudes in different areas.
if that make your brain hurt and you want to diffuse my comments into a vague condemnation of AMERICAN "society" I can't help you.

I'm saying that there are McDonalds all over the country, some are great but some ... too many.. are roaches invested and watery rancid milkshakes. If you want to pretend that I'm saying that McDonald's are all BY DEFAULT and design roach motels I can't help you.
My question to you is, DO you SEE and ACKNOWLEDGE that LARGE NUMBER of McDonald's that seem to have real problems living up to the standards we'd all like to imagine they ALL Should be working at?

[darin]

Originally Posted by former Baltimore police officer Michael A. Wood Jr.
"Jacking up and illegally searching thousands of people with no legal justification
Targeting16-24 year old black males essentially because we arrest them more, perpetrating the circle of arresting them more."
So Darin, when it gets to TEN thousand in one city is it systemic racism in that city then? SO do you attribute thousands and targeting black males to "a few bad apples"?
Or What EXACTLY is your standard for "systemic"?


That's not oppression, that's black folk driving their own stereotypes - by committing so much crime in that city. That's a self-licking ice cream cone. That's folks committing crime in massive numbers...leading cops to tend to search them more....finding more criminal activity....




I'm not switching topics, i'm talking about the BROAD issue of various police problems, including the minority bias of various Law Enforcement agencies.
I'm not talking about "society" i'm talking about various POLICE and various parts of criminal justice system. use your brain.

And my brain says you want to say systemic racism and oppression yet you point to select individuals involved in stuff the rest of society rejects - and punishes them for, when illegal.



I've made it fairly clear the issue is nearly non-existent in some areas and a real problem elsewhere.
Systematic in some places and a problem of some "bad apples" elsewhere.
(bad apples that somehow stay on the force and/or often get promoted. NOT BY SOCIETY but by the dept heads and city leadership.)

Isolated areas having more than a couple bad actors is not 'systemic' racism - it's select racism. AND....AND...most law enforcement policy setters are elected....IF folks thought there was a real problem, they simply need to vote-out those causing the offense. Or they can leave the area. Choice. Choice. Choice.

But no - they'd rather sit around voting for the same democrats to lead them and cry 'i'm oppressed!' instead of "i'm too stupid to leave the area or vote for better people".



I'm not sure what society you're talking about.
I'm talking a WIDE SPREAD problem among real U.S. police depts, of various magnitudes in different areas.
if that make your brain hurt and you want to diffuse my comments into a vague condemnation of AMERICAN "society" I can't help you.

You just said 'wide spread' when you earlier talked about select areas where oppression may be real (in the eyes of the so-called oppressed).



I'm saying that there are McDonalds all over the country, some are great but some ... too many.. are roaches invested and watery rancid milkshakes. If you want to pretend that I'm saying that McDonald's are all BY DEFAULT and design roach motels I can't help you.
My question to you is, DO you SEE and ACKNOWLEDGE that LARGE NUMBER of McDonald's that seem to have real problems living up to the standards we'd all like to imagine they ALL Should be working at?

So you're illogical as fuck right now. What is 'too many'? how many is 'too many'? 1? If ONE McD's (in your example) has roaches does that mean a systemic problem of roaches in McD's corporation? And if 1 McD's or 10 does have roaches, the customers should go elsewhere. (shrug).

everything revolves around choice. Those feeling oppressed need to look in the mirror for their answers - and NOT result to the victim card. Societal oppression of races DOES NOT HAPPEN today. Except when white kids can't get into school because they aren't black. or when Soldiers cant get promoted because The Army wants ONLY females or minorities to make rank this year. (shrug).

Truth can hurt feelings. Truth is hard work.

[revelarts]

wow,

yeah,
we disagree.

[darin]

wow,

yeah,
we disagree.

Stop being wrong and we'll see eye to eye :)

:beers:

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Or maybe i'd just say "relax. "The nation" or "the flag" doesnt need you to defend its honor. Mind your business."

Or what if i said to fuck off? Wouldnt change the fact your assumption would be misplaced and your comments rude.

So - mayne instead of moral outrage we all simmer the fuck down or use that frustration as fuel to volunteer. Or teach. Or otherwise make a difference.
Well if after I apologized and said please remain seated, which in no way would be misplaced or rude, you decided to tell me to fuck off, then I'd just figure you were a complete jack off and tell you to go fuck yourself too.

I find people disrespecting our nations flag and national anthem rude.
You find people that don't like people disrespecting our flag and national anthem rude.

Got nothing to do with volunteering, but I would say it probably does have something to do with teaching, in that schools today are not much more than progressive, leftist indoctrination centers, and that's where kids are taught such repugnant things as it's cool or brave to disrespect our nations flag and/or national anthem.

[darin]

Well if after I apologized and said please remain seated, which in no way would be misplaced or rude, you decided to tell me to fuck off, then I'd just figure you were a complete jack off and tell you to go fuck yourself too.

I find people disrespecting our nations flag and national anthem rude.
You find people that don't like people disrespecting our flag and national anthem rude.

Got nothing to do with volunteering, but I would say it probably does have something to do with teaching, in that schools today are not much more than progressive, leftist indoctrination centers, and that's where kids are taught such repugnant things as it's cool or brave to disrespect our nations flag and/or national anthem.

So what I'm saying is - maybe it's best to assume grace for folks who are either unwilling or unaware enough to NOT show proper respect.

[Gunny]

Sure having a deeper connection to the flag as a member of military makes sense.
So What exactly were you taught during your time in the military HPDrifter?
what does it "stand for" as far as the military's indoctrination is concerned.

"civilians" ... ie other Americans.First, as mentioned previously in one of these threads, it is required by law for ALL to render honors to the National ensign. One of "those laws" people do whatever they feel like about.

In the military, to answer your question, you WILL render Honors to the National ensign or you WILL be prosecuted. It's that simple. The only exception(s) would be in a combat environment (you don't salute ANYONE - or THING in the field. Creates a target. Or, almost the same, it would endanger the lives of others.

General Order 10 (sir :) ) is" To salute all officers and all colors and standards not cased." Sir. There's a little warning not about a minute prior to "colors" which basically means you got that amount of time to get indoors or ... you face the flag or where you know it is or the sound of the music, snap to the position of attention, and if covered or under arms render a hand salute or appropriate salute with whatever weapon you are humping.

When boarding a ship you face the Officer of the Day, salute, request permission to come aboard. When granted, you step over the brow, face aft and salute the national ensign. Debarking, you do it in reverse. Salute the national ensign, face the OOD, salute, and request permission to go ashore.

In civilian attire, you or not covered (wearing a cover - hat), you do render the same respects without saluting (in the Marine Corps). In the Army and I think USAF you salute uncovered indoors when reporting to an officer.

Failure to heed Marine Corps customs and courtesies IS a punishable offense, starting with disrespect, failure to render Honors, and anything else they can heap on you to make your punishment more enjoyable.

You asked revelarts :)

[CSM]

First, as mentioned previously in one of these threads, it is required by law for ALL to render honors to the National ensign. One of "those laws" people do whatever they feel like about.

In the military, to answer your question, you WILL render Honors to the National ensign or you WILL be prosecuted. It's that simple. The only exception(s) would be in a combat environment (you don't salute ANYONE - or THING in the field. Creates a target. Or, almost the same, it would endanger the lives of others.

General Order 10 (sir :) ) is" To salute all officers and all colors and standards not cased." Sir. There's a little warning not about a minute prior to "colors" which basically means you got that amount of time to get indoors or ... you face the flag or where you know it is or the sound of the music, snap to the position of attention, and if covered or under arms render a hand salute or appropriate salute with whatever weapon you are humping.

When boarding a ship you face the Officer of the Day, salute, request permission to come aboard. When granted, you step over the brow, face aft and salute the national ensign. Debarking, you do it in reverse. Salute the national ensign, face the OOD, salute, and request permission to go ashore.

In civilian attire, you or not covered (wearing a cover - hat), you do render the same respects without saluting (in the Marine Corps). In the Army and I think USAF you salute uncovered indoors when reporting to an officer.

Failure to heed Marine Corps customs and courtesies IS a punishable offense, starting with disrespect, failure to render Honors, and anything else they can heap on you to make your punishment more enjoyable.

You asked revelarts :)

You got it ...

[aboutime]

To what end? Whats your expected outcome of a righteous tantrum when folks offend you? You arent defending America. You are trying to send a message to those unwilling to learn.


DARIN. I have the very same rights you do. So, I voiced my 1st amendment right in offering my opinion. I don't really care if anyone disagree's with me or not. Being an American for me, isn't a popularity game. I have nothing to prove to anyone here as long as I know I am being Honest with myself, and others. If they choose to disagree. That's their right as well.
As for sending a message. FAR too many Americans are UNDER-educated, selfish, and totally dependent on someone else to do their thinking, and to decide how they should live because...they are UNDER-educated, and they are comfortable being that way.

I am aware I am no longer defending America. I did give almost half of my life to making it possible for Americans, like you, to come here and scold me for my opinion.

[Abbey Marie]

not a bad analogy.

if the wife is generally pretty great... but has been on purpose, repeatedly and unapologetically putting her cigarettes out on her least favorite child's skin. Would the husband by default be indicating that he didn't love her If he decided NOT to give her flowers on her birthday to highlight his concern over the problem?

Seems like a MILD response really.
But the wife might not see the problem or worse insist there's nothing wrong with what she's done and plans on continuing to do so.
And ONLY see the lack of flowers a horrible personal offense ...to her and all her wonderfulness over the years.

She could yell at him to just get a DIVORCE since he "HATES" her so much.
But his point is not to divorce her, he does love her. He just wants her to 1st acknowledge and to stop the unacceptable behavior.

the husband has gotten her flowers before, and likely will again as a matter of course, she's generally a great gal, but she's got some horrible blind spots and can be even better, the cigarette issue needs to be addressed,
the flowers are not the real point... of their love or the problem.

Rev, you are a trip. :cool:

I will support not- giving roses, over blaming her for all of his inadequacies, throwing rocks at her, or burning her car, any day.