Jeffrey Dahmer "got it" why can't Libs?

[-Cp]

Jeffrey Dahmer brutally murdered more than 17 boys and men before being caught and sentenced to serve a life sentence in prison. At the time of his arrest, three human heads were found along with numerous other body parts in his apartment. Prior to Dahmer himself being beaten to death on November 28, 1994 by an inmate in prison, he became a Christian. In an interview, with NBC Dateline nine months before his death (which aired on November 29, 1994) Jeffrey Dahmer stated this:

If you don't--if a person doesn't think that there is a God to be accountable to, then--then what's--what's the point of--of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? That's how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just came from the slime. When we--when we died, you know, that was it, there is nothing, and I've since come to believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is truly God, and I believe that I, as well as everyone else, will be accountable to him.

Dateline NBC: The Final Interview (NBC television broadcast, Nov. 29, 1994).

[diuretic]

:laugh2: Dahmer was a nutter and you're using him as an example? :laugh2:


If you don't--if a person doesn't think that there is a God to be accountable to, then--then what's--what's the point of--of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? That's how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just came from the slime. When we--when we died, you know, that was it, there is nothing, and I've since come to believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is truly God, and I believe that I, as well as everyone else, will be accountable to him.

What a load of hogwash. Jeez, this is really scraping the bottom of the barrel. Now, what point are you attempting to make?

[-Cp]

:laugh2: Dahmer was a nutter and you're using him as an example? :laugh2:



What a load of hogwash. Jeez, this is really scraping the bottom of the barrel. Now, what point are you attempting to make?

Yup... and what he said - obviously - went right over your head...

[diuretic]

Yup... and what he said - obviously - went right over your head...

:laugh2: Of course it did. :laugh2:

Now, what point were you trying to make in quoting the mumblings of a murdering sociopath who cannibalised his victims?

[diuretic]

Okay, I'll help out.


If you don't--if a person doesn't think that there is a God to be accountable to, then--then what's--what's the point of--of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? That's how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just came from the slime. When we--when we died, you know, that was it, there is nothing, and I've since come to believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is truly God, and I believe that I, as well as everyone else, will be accountable to him.

Dahmer says that the only reason anyone should behave properly is that God is watching them. If you don't believe in God then you're not constrained by any form of morality. Obviously when he was killing and eating people he didn't believe in God. Suddenly when he's in prison he believes in God. How unique.

[Black Lance]

Okay, I'll help out.



Dahmer says that the only reason anyone should behave properly is that God is watching them. If you don't believe in God then you're not constrained by any form of morality. Obviously when he was killing and eating people he didn't believe in God. Suddenly when he's in prison he believes in God. How unique.

The question that Cp needs to answer, then, is why Jeffrey Dahmer's opinion of morality should carry some special weight.

[82Marine89]

Okay, I'll help out.



Dahmer says that the only reason anyone should behave properly is that God is watching them. If you don't believe in God then you're not constrained by any form of morality. Obviously when he was killing and eating people he didn't believe in God. Suddenly when he's in prison he believes in God. How unique.

And when they snapped that broomstick off in his ass, he was yelling, "OH GOD!!!!!!!!!!!"

[manu1959]

albert said it best

[Psychoblues]

Jeffrey Dahmer was a committed conservative. Have you not read the transcripts?

[-Cp]

The question that Cp needs to answer, then, is why Jeffrey Dahmer's opinion of morality should carry some special weight.

Again - so many folks miss the point....

[Pale Rider]

And when they snapped that broomstick off in his ass, he was yelling, "OH GOD!!!!!!!!!!!"

Actually, he was beaten to death with a barbell. He and another guy. And I stood face to face and talked to the man that killed him, Christopher Scarver.

I used to work as a Maintenance Mechanic at the Supermax Prison in Boscobel, Wisconsin where Scarver was incarcerated.

[Pale Rider]

Again - so many folks miss the point....

What did you expect from the godless, liberal, heathens? Fuck 'em -Cp. God will give you credit for trying.

[JohnDoe]

Again - so many folks miss the point....
I understand the point you were trying to make, which is without God, your life could end up being like his, a total waste, right?

But many, once they understood your point, may start nailing you for equivicating Atheism with someone like Dahmer, a Sociopath or Psychopath cannibal.

As a Judeo-Christian believer from what I have read about it, Adam and Eve, once they ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge, had the knowledge of ''right verses wrong''. Before this, there was no knowledge of either...supposedly....they were like innocent children.

All of mankind inherited Adam's sin, but we also inherited knowing right from wrong. Now, I don't fully know what this means....but I believe, with this and some other passages in the old Testament surrounding Moses in the dessert with his people, God said he would seer ''right from wrong'' in to everyone's heart....or something like that....and this coupled with free will makes the story a whole lot more complicated, cuz just knowing right from wrong....somehow "programed" as humans with this "knowledge" (from eating the apple :) ) like I have said, makes our genesis as humans a heck of alot more interesting, to say the least, more complicated is really the better word.

So, if Dahmer had accepted Christ, early on and not just in the 11th hour, as it 'seems' he did, he still had free will and not to mention he was certified nuts, to deal with and his choices still may have been the same imo.

jd

[diuretic]

JD you have it in one.

-Cp - I knew exactly what you were getting at. I disagree with it. It was a clumsy attempt to use, as JD has put it, the 11th hour conversion of a homicidal nutter, as a validation of Christianity. Pity it didn't work for Karla Faye Tucker. She, as you are no doubt aware, became a born-again Christian in prison but then Gov Bush still refused to grant her clemency and she was executed by the state of Texas.

Dahmer was a complete nutcase. Whatever words Dahmer had about anything, including religion, is totally without worth for me, unless of course he's discussing how to eat someone with fava beans and a nice Chianti, but I'll pass on that.

[Pale Rider]

JD you have it in one.

-Cp - I knew exactly what you were getting at. I disagree with it. It was a clumsy attempt to use, as JD has put it, the 11th hour conversion of a homicidal nutter, as a validation of Christianity. Pity it didn't work for Karla Faye Tucker. She, as you are no doubt aware, became a born-again Christian in prison but then Gov Bush still refused to grant her clemency and she was executed by the state of Texas.

Dahmer was a complete nutcase. Whatever words Dahmer had about anything, including religion, is totally without worth for me, unless of course he's discussing how to eat someone with fava beans and a nice Chianti, but I'll pass on that.

No... neither you nor JD gets it. The point -Cp was trying to make is, that even the lowest kind of human being can find God, if... IF, they try.

It's that simple. Maybe that's why neither of you got it.

[JohnDoe]

No... neither you nor JD gets it. The point -Cp was trying to make is, that even the lowest kind of human being can find God, if... IF, they try.

It's that simple. Maybe that's why neither of you got it.

yes, i accept that this was also a message that could have been read in to it, but not by the way he worded his header, and his responses? :)

jd

[JohnDoe]

No... neither you nor JD gets it. The point -Cp was trying to make is, that even the lowest kind of human being can find God, if... IF, they try.
It's that simple. Maybe that's why neither of you got it.

How about a ''flag burner''? ;) :laugh2: j/k u and ty for the rep earler!

jd

[diuretic]

No... neither you nor JD gets it. The point -Cp was trying to make is, that even the lowest kind of human being can find God, if... IF, they try.

It's that simple. Maybe that's why neither of you got it.

Bullshit.


Jeffrey Dahmer "got it" why can't Libs?

[diuretic]

yes, i accept that this was also a message that could have been read in to it, but not by the way he worded his header, and his responses? :)

jd

Exactly.

It was a snide remark, a snide, decidely un-Christian remark. It has the taint of superiority about it, none of the humility that Christ taught his followers. It cheapens your religion if you are a Christian.

[red states rule]

Actually, he was beaten to death with a barbell. He and another guy. And I stood face to face and talked to the man that killed him, Christopher Scarver.

I used to work as a Maintenance Mechanic at the Supermax Prison in Boscobel, Wisconsin where Scarver was incarcerated.

I would have given the guy a couple cartons of smokes for doing such a great public service

[Abbey Marie]

What happened to the ubiquitous "judge not" assertions from message board liberals? Are they suddenly not applicable? None of us mortals can know what was in Dahmer's heart and mind when he spoke those words. God does know, however.

Anyone who reads the Bible knows that all can be forgiven, even serial killers. I have seen and believe in the transforming power of God's forgiveness and love, for even the most lost souls, and I am sure that prison can be a great place for reflection and reassessment of your life.

[red states rule]

What happened to the ubiquitous "judge not" assertions from message board liberals? Are they suddenly not applicable? None of us mortals can know what was in Dahmer's heart and mind when he spoke those words. God does know, however.

Anyone who reads the Bible knows that all can be forgiven, even serial killers. I have seen and believe in the transforming power of God's forgiveness and love, for even the most lost souls, and I am sure that prison can be a great place for reflection and reassessment of your life.

I know God will do the forgiving - but I also want justice

[Abbey Marie]

I know God will do the forgiving - but I also want justice

Yes, two separate issues.

[red states rule]

Yes, two separate issues.

Yes they are

Dahmer finally got justice (IMHO)

Only God knows if he was forgiven

[Black Lance]

Actually, he was beaten to death with a barbell. He and another guy. And I stood face to face and talked to the man that killed him, Christopher Scarver.

Pardon, but I am no godless liberal. See my custom user title for verification. It's been there since I registered.

The reason why many people didn't get the point isn't because we're all a bunch of atheists who are clueless about religious matters, it's because the point you were trying to make by repeating Dahmer's words was not clear.



I used to work as a Maintenance Mechanic at the Supermax Prison in Boscobel, Wisconsin where Scarver was incarcerated.

What did you and Scarver talk about?

[diuretic]

What happened to the ubiquitous "judge not" assertions from message board liberals? Are they suddenly not applicable? None of us mortals can know what was in Dahmer's heart and mind when he spoke those words. God does know, however.

Anyone who reads the Bible knows that all can be forgiven, even serial killers. I have seen and believe in the transforming power of God's forgiveness and love, for even the most lost souls, and I am sure that prison can be a great place for reflection and reassessment of your life.

Not me. Dahmer was a worthless slug, an excuse for a human being. When he shuffled off this mortal coil the world suddenly became a better place.

[red states rule]

Not me. Dahmer was a worthless slug, an excuse for a human being. When he shuffled off this mortal coil the world suddenly became a better place.

Hell, many of the left were sad when Saddam assumed room temp

[diuretic]

Hell, many of the left were sad when Saddam assumed room temp

Now don't take this the wrong way RSR, but.....I seriously doubt that you are correct :D

[red states rule]

Now don't take this the wrong way RSR, but.....I seriously doubt that you are correct :D

Oh?

the liberal media was outraged when Saddam was left swinging in the wind. I remember how they whined how his hanging was a "rush to judgement" and many other vomit inducing descriptions

[-Cp]

WOW............................................... ...........

NOBODY GETS IT!! OMG.... *sigh*..

The point here isn't whether or not Dahmer "found God in the 11th hour" - it's that he DID find God and once his spirital blinders came off, he was able to recognize his failures. If a "nutcase" (as so many of you pointed out) can come to that realization, it makes me wonder about the mental status of those who didnt' get the point of what he was saying! LOL....

The point of the article - and I can't even believe I have to SPELL THIS OUT - is that the "system" (i.e. godlessness) teaches a sense of moral relativism that - without God - is open to ones own interputation.

Dahmer confessed that he believed we all came from pond scum and had no higher authority to be accountable to - so why not go kill and eat people?

What prevents any of YOU from murdering someone? Is it the fact you'd end up in prison? Or is because you know God is out there and he set the standard for the way we should live long ago?

Where does your sense of right and wrong come from if you say there is no God? Who or what do you think put that in you if you say there is no God?

GOOD LORD- is dp filled with "Dee dee dee" or what? Still can't believe I had to explain that... LOL

[glockmail]

Actually, he was beaten to death with a barbell. He and another guy. And I stood face to face and talked to the man that killed him, Christopher Scarver.

I used to work as a Maintenance Mechanic at the Supermax Prison in Boscobel, Wisconsin where Scarver was incarcerated. Now THAT'S an experience that can't be duplictaed in any other way.

[red states rule]

WOW............................................... ...........

NOBODY GETS IT!! OMG.... *sigh*..

The point here isn't whether or not Dahmer "found God in the 11th hour" - it's that he DID find God and once his spirital blinders came off, he was able to recognize his failures. If a "nutcase" (as so many of you pointed out) can come to that realization, it makes me wonder about the mental status of those who didnt' get the point of what he was saying! LOL....

The point of the article - and I can't even believe I have to SPELL THIS OUT - is that the "system" (i.e. godlessness) teaches a sense of moral relativism that - without God - is open to ones own interputation.

Dahmer confessed that he believed we all came from pond scum and had no higher authority to be accountable to - so why not go kill and eat people?

What prevents any of YOU from murdering someone? Is it the fact you'd end up in prison? Or is because you know God is out there and he set the standard for the way we should live long ago?

Where does your sense of right and wrong come from if you say there is no God? Who or what do you think put that in you if you say there is no God?

GOOD LORD- is dp filled with "Dee dee dee" or what? Still can't believe I had to explain that... LOL

Take a chill pill

He got what was coming to him - and he is in much warmer climate now

What prevents me from killing? It is wrong,I do not wish to go to prison, and it is against the laws of God

[-Cp]

He got what was coming to him - and he is in much warmer climate now


Really? And how do you know?

[red states rule]

Really? And how do you know?

His his was bashed in and he will not pose a threat to anyone here on Earth again

I am sure he suffered before he died. That is a good thing

[diuretic]

Oh?

the liberal media was outraged when Saddam was left swinging in the wind. I remember how they whined how his hanging was a "rush to judgement" and many other vomit inducing descriptions

Sounds like an issue about due process rather than his actual eventual fate.

[red states rule]

Sounds like an issue about due process rather than his actual eventual fate.

and you think the year long trial was not due process?

Libs will always whine over fallen dictators - they really cry when it is the US that takes them out

[diuretic]

-Cp - I am godless. I have a finely developed understanding of right and wrong. I don't need religion or God to instruct me in how I should evaluate any action. My understanding of morality is that there are both absolute and relative aspects, depending on the issue at hand. Don't take any of this as a dig, it's not. I'm not religious but I'm not critical of those who are and I expect to be given the same treatment.

[-Cp]

His his was bashed in and he will not pose a threat to anyone here on Earth again

I am sure he suffered before he died. That is a good thing

You said "he's in a warmer climate now" - how do you know?

[diuretic]

and you think the year long trial was not due process?

Libs will always whine over fallen dictators - they really cry when it is the US that takes them out

Due process isn't about duration, it's about quality of procedure.

As for fallen dictators, I know that the US has nurtured many, Saddam being just one of that number and a goodly quantity were definitely not of the leftist persuasion.

[red states rule]

-Cp - I am godless. I have a finely developed understanding of right and wrong. I don't need religion or God to instruct me in how I should evaluate any action. My understanding of morality is that there are both absolute and relative aspects, depending on the issue at hand. Don't take any of this as a dig, it's not. I'm not religious but I'm not critical of those who are and I expect to be given the same treatment.

When you die and you face you final judgement, I bet you will find God in a hurry

[diuretic]

When you die and you face you final judgement, I bet you will find God in a hurry

Why do you say that?

[red states rule]

Why do you say that?

You will find out one day

[diuretic]

You will find out one day

That's not any sort of answer. I asked you why you said what you did. That is, what is your motivation. If you don't tell me I'll never know because only you know what your motivation was. If you won't tell me then say so and I'll leave it at that.

[-Cp]

-Cp - I am godless. I have a finely developed understanding of right and wrong. I don't need religion or God to instruct me in how I should evaluate any action. My understanding of morality is that there are both absolute and relative aspects, depending on the issue at hand. Don't take any of this as a dig, it's not. I'm not religious but I'm not critical of those who are and I expect to be given the same treatment.


Not taking it as a dig, but where does your sense of morality come from?

[red states rule]

Due process isn't about duration, it's about quality of procedure.

As for fallen dictators, I know that the US has nurtured many, Saddam being just one of that number and a goodly quantity were definitely not of the leftist persuasion.

So you are saying Saddam did NOT get a fair trial - or are you saying he was innocent?

[diuretic]

Not taking it as a dig, but where does your sense of morality come from?

My current sense of morality comes from rationality. Of course I'm a product of my upbringing, which means my secular education and my early religious eeducation. Now I am guided by the law, by the knowledge of the culture I live in, by my own understanding of how to evaluate the nature of an action. I put it all together and have my own way of looking at the world. It's not difficult and so far so good :cheers2:

[red states rule]

My current sense of morality comes from rationality. Of course I'm a product of my upbringing, which means my secular education and my early religious eeducation. Now I am guided by the law, by the knowledge of the culture I live in, by my own understanding of how to evaluate the nature of an action. I put it all together and have my own way of looking at the world. It's not difficult and so far so good :cheers2:

You are in my prayers - you will need it one day

[diuretic]

So you are saying Saddam did NOT get a fair trial - or are you saying he was innocent?

No way was he innocent, let's get that one out of the way immediately.

And I don't know if he got a fair trial or not, I wasn't there and I only saw snatches of it on tv news now and again. But that wasn't my point. What I was getting at was your misrepresentation of the position of what you see as the Left regarding his treatment. I did read some commentators who argued that Saddam wasn'g given due process. That's a long way from being sad about his demise.

[red states rule]

No way was he innocent, let's get that one out of the way immediately.

And I don't know if he got a fair trial or not, I wasn't there and I only saw snatches of it on tv news now and again. But that wasn't my point. What I was getting at was your misrepresentation of the position of what you see as the Left regarding his treatment. I did read some commentators who argued that Saddam wasn'g given due process. That's a long way from being sad about his demise.

Libs were sobbing over the fate of a dictator. Nothing new. jst another excuse to bash America

[Black Lance]

-Cp - I am godless. I have a finely developed understanding of right and wrong. I don't need religion or God to instruct me in how I should evaluate any action. My understanding of morality is that there are both absolute and relative aspects, depending on the issue at hand. Don't take any of this as a dig, it's not. I'm not religious but I'm not critical of those who are and I expect to be given the same treatment.

Diuretic, as an atheist, were do you think that moral absolutes comes from?

[Black Lance]

You said "he's in a warmer climate now" - how do you know?

Good point. Not all eleventh hour conversions are insincere. And if Christ was willing to forgive Dahmer, maybe we Christians should do the same?

[Pale Rider]

How about a ''flag burner''? ;) :laugh2: j/k u and ty for the rep earler!

jd

One can only hope JD. ;)

[Pale Rider]

Bullshit.

Bullshit... WHY? You ain't gettin' off that easy boy.

[Pale Rider]

Pardon, but I am no godless liberal. See my custom user title for verification. It's been there since I registered.

The reason why many people didn't get the point isn't because we're all a bunch of atheists who are clueless about religious matters, it's because the point you were trying to make by repeating Dahmer's words was not clear.
So you're a self proclaimed Christian right winger, yet you refer to yourself as "we" when referring to atheists.... I'm a little confused. Are you a Christian or an atheist?


What did you and Scarver talk about?
He asked what I was doing as far as work in the cell next to him. I was making a lot of noise drilling and such. He's a black man, tall, and soft spoken. But none the less, a cold blooded killer. However, for killing Dahmer, I could have shook his hand in thanks.

[red states rule]

So you're a self proclaimed Christian right winger, yet you refer to yourself as "we" when referring to atheists.... I'm a little confused. Are you a Christian or an atheist?


He asked what I was doing as far as work in the cell next to him. I was making a lot of noise drilling and such. He's a black man, tall, and soft spoken. But none the less, a cold blooded killer. However, for killing Dahmer, I could have shook his hand in thanks.

Scarver should be given a medal for what he did

[Black Lance]

So you're a self proclaimed Christian right winger, yet you refer to yourself as "we" when referring to atheists.... I'm a little confused. Are you a Christian or an atheist?

"We" referred to people who didn't get the point of the thread, not atheists.



He asked what I was doing as far as work in the cell next to him. I was making a lot of noise drilling and such. He's a black man, tall, and soft spoken. But none the less, a cold blooded killer. However, for killing Dahmer, I could have shook his hand in thanks.

Cool, thanks.

[JohnDoe]

Not taking it as a dig, but where does your sense of morality come from?You bdid not read my post. ALL human beings, because of Adam and Eve eating from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, know right from wrong, this was passed on to ALL MANKIND....not just religious humans, not just Christians, not just Jews, not just Muslims not just Budhists etc...

ALL HUMANS were born with this knowledge!!! And Original sin!!!

They still have ''free will'' to reject what is right/good and choose what is wrong.

It is always confusing to me when I see other Christians try to claim that someone can not have morals if they are not religiously founded, because this is in contradition, imo, with the Bible.

[red states rule]

You bdid not read my post. ALL human beings, because of Adam and Eve eating from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, this was passed on to ALL MANKIND....not just religious humans, not just Christians, not just Jews, not just Muslims not just Budhists etc...

ALL HUMANS were born with this knowledge!!! And Original sin!!!

They still have ''free will'' to reject what is right/good and choose what is wrong.

It is always confusing to me when I see other Christians try to claim that someone can not have morals if they are not religiously founded, because this is in contradition, imo, with the Bible.

Then why does the kook left want to remove all references of God from public view?

[diuretic]

Diuretic, as an atheist, were do you think that moral absolutes comes from?

As an atheist BL I believe they come from ourselves and not God. There aren't many moral absolutes now but what there are come from our sense of selves, as being humans, that is, higher functioning animals. I do believe they are practical in origin and not handed down to us by a deity.

[diuretic]

Bullshit... WHY? You ain't gettin' off that easy boy.

:laugh2:

Bullshit

:laugh2:

[Pale Rider]

:laugh2:

Bullshit

:laugh2:

OK... you're full of bullshit... I get it.

[red states rule]

OK... you're full of bullshit... I get it.

You do have a firm grasp on the fucking obvious PR

[-Cp]

As an atheist BL I believe they come from ourselves and not God. There aren't many moral absolutes now but what there are come from our sense of selves, as being humans, that is, higher functioning animals. I do believe they are practical in origin and not handed down to us by a deity.

So who originated the morals to be passed down in the first place? Information only comes from information...

And information only comes from Intelligence..

[-Cp]

You bdid not read my post. ALL human beings, because of Adam and Eve eating from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, know right from wrong, this was passed on to ALL MANKIND....not just religious humans, not just Christians, not just Jews, not just Muslims not just Budhists etc...

ALL HUMANS were born with this knowledge!!! And Original sin!!!

They still have ''free will'' to reject what is right/good and choose what is wrong.

It is always confusing to me when I see other Christians try to claim that someone can not have morals if they are not religiously founded, because this is in contradition, imo, with the Bible.

But your assertions are NOT biblically sound:

BECAUSE of the fall, man is born into sin and cannot do good - that isn't a choice he's born with - he is inherently sinful (Bad)... .

Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Psalms 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."

Ecclesiastes 9:3: "This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead."

Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"

Jeremiah 13:23: (NIV): "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

Mark 7:21-23: "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."

John 3:19: "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil."

John 6:44: "[Jesus said,] 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.'"

John 6:64-65: "[Jesus said,] 'But there are some of you who do not believe.' (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'"

John 8:34: "Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.'"

Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."

Romans 8:7-8: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

Ephesians 2:1-3: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

Titus 3:3: "For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another."


Can you please point out to me which of those scriptures point to a "free will" or an ability to Choose good? You can't - the Bible is full of evidence to support the notion that because of Adam's sin, we're all born in a hosed-situation... And until the Spirit convicts us, we cannot know we're a slave to sin...

You need to go back and read your Bible my brother...

[Black Lance]

As an atheist BL I believe they come from ourselves and not God. There aren't many moral absolutes now but what there are come from our sense of selves, as being humans, that is, higher functioning animals. I do believe they are practical in origin and not handed down to us by a deity.

Interesting. Do all people have the same "sense of self", or are these moral absolutes somewhat individualized?

[Abbey Marie]

Although I disagree with his beliefs, I think Diuretic is a reasonable and very intelligent person, and we should give him a great example of Christianity!

[glockmail]

Interesting. Do all people have the same "sense of self", or are these moral absolutes somewhat individualized? More importantly, perhaps, is just where did these moral values come from?

[-Cp]

For those who assert that evolution is true and that darwin is a hero of sorts.. perhaps you should consider this from this Auto Biography which fits this topic:

"A Man who has no assured and ever-present belief in the existence of a personal God, or of a future existense with retribution and reward, can have for his rule of life, as far as I can see, only to follow those impulses and instincts which are the strongest or which seem to him the best ones."

*The Morality of Evolution, Charles Darwin in his Autobiography, Norton, 1958, pg. 94


He's saying "If there's no God, then man has a right to do whatever he wants to do" that's why people want to believe in Evolution and they don't want to believe "In the Beginning, God..." even tho it's obvious there is one...

[JohnDoe]

But your assertions are NOT biblically sound:

I respectfully disagree with you.

BECAUSE of the fall, man is born into sin and cannot do good - that isn't a choice he's born with - he is inherently sinful (Bad)... .

Adam and eve, before eating the fruit from "The Of Knowledge of Good and Evil" had Free will to Choose to eat the Fruit of Knowledge or to obey God and not eat it.

Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Psalms 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."

Ecclesiastes 9:3: "This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead."

Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"

Jeremiah 13:23: (NIV): "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

Mark 7:21-23: "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."

John 3:19: "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil."

John 6:44: "[Jesus said,] 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.'"

John 6:64-65: "[Jesus said,] 'But there are some of you who do not believe.' (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'"

John 8:34: "Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.'"

Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."

Romans 8:7-8: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

Ephesians 2:1-3: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

Titus 3:3: "For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another."


Can you please point out to me which of those scriptures point to a "free will" or an ability to Choose good? You can't - the Bible is full of evidence to support the notion that because of Adam's sin, we're all born in a hosed-situation... And until the Spirit convicts us, we cannot know we're a slave to sin...

You need to go back and read your Bible my brother...

I've read it, and Love to read it, so...no problem there with me!



I have never said that just because we inherited the knowledge of good and evil, that this means our nature is to choose good.

Adam and Eve, who were sin free at the point of choosing to disobey God, as far as I can tell, still chose to disobey him....and took a ''bite'' of that ''forbidden fruit''.

The Key word is chose.

This, IS Free Will.

God gave us free will.

Also, if we only inherently know Evil as the picked out passages imply, that you chose to use, then HOW could we also be made in the Image of God, both male and female?

And what significance, does the name of the tree that Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit from....The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil have to us?

jd

[JohnDoe]

Btw....

The Devil acknowledges that there is one God...he BELIEVES in God....so just because you have a believer in God, does NOT in any way mean that you will be good....

I would venture to say, that more than 2/3's of our prisoners in jail, are Christians, maybe it is more like 50%, their belief in God and Jesus Christ as Savior did not stop them from committing their felonies just as it would not be a sure thing that it would have stopped Dahmer.

And I agree with Diurectic, Dahlmer is not an example that i would use of such....you have mere words with no works that can confirm his words, before he was killed. I know even he can be forgiven by Christ, but I will leave that up to his Judger, who IS fair and just....Dahmer, "ain't no Saul/Paul" that I can see...

But neither did the Thief on the Cross have time to repent and change his ways, who saw Paradise that very day?

And being taught to believe in evolution or taught not to believe in it has nothing to do with Dahmer's sins...that's just an excuse, that I am sure he figured Christians wanted to hear... I wouldn't fall for that garbage...

Sin and murder and cannibalism occurred long before there ever was even a discussion on Evolution or Darwin!

[JohnDoe]

If Dahmer had no sense of Good and evil, why did he hide his actions of kidnapping and murder and torture and cannibalism ....and do what he did in darkness, not in the light?

Even Dahmer was born with the knowledge of good and evil. He knew what he was doing was wrong, evil.

[diuretic]

OK... you're full of bullshit... I get it.

Finally you get it! :laugh2:

Just kidding. Actually you're a bit slow on the uptake, the issue which caused me to exclaim "bullshit" has been/is being discussed.

[diuretic]

You do have a firm grasp on the fucking obvious PR

:laugh2:

This is good!

:laugh2:

[diuretic]

So who originated the morals to be passed down in the first place? Information only comes from information...

And information only comes from Intelligence..

Before intelligence comes instinct. Every social animal has developed collective behavioural "rules" to enable them to live together. Watch a troop of baboons interacting with one another. They have fairly highly developed social rules which allow them to get along without killing each other. We've done the same. As we've developed as a species we have finely modified our social rules, our morals and it's been on the basis of making sure we, the ultimate social animal so far, are able to live together.

[diuretic]

Interesting. Do all people have the same "sense of self", or are these moral absolutes somewhat individualized?

Ever seen a kid in the "terrible twos" throw a tantrum?

No, we're not born with any sense other than instinct. We learn the social rules from our parents and as we develop as individuals we learn from those around us. The sense of self has to be nurtured. For example, we read from time to time about children who have been abandoned and raised by wild animals. Yes, the Mowgli tales have some basis in fact. Those children, as they develop, take on the behaviours of the animals that have raised them. They don't behave like we would expect a human to behave. Aside from instinct all our behaviours are learned.

[diuretic]

Although I disagree with his beliefs, I think Diuretic is a reasonable and very intelligent person, and we should give him a great example of Christianity!

But I fully expect to be challenged Abbey - if I were merely tolerated I would be very disappointed.


Assuredly we bring not innocence into the world, we bring impurity much rather; that which purifies us is trial, and trial is by what is contrary.

[diuretic]

More importantly, perhaps, is just where did these moral values come from?

That's always an interesting question and with a bit of luck I'll try and explain my views on it here.

[diuretic]

For those who assert that evolution is true and that darwin is a hero of sorts.. perhaps you should consider this from this Auto Biography which fits this topic:

"A Man who has no assured and ever-present belief in the existence of a personal God, or of a future existense with retribution and reward, can have for his rule of life, as far as I can see, only to follow those impulses and instincts which are the strongest or which seem to him the best ones."

*The Morality of Evolution, Charles Darwin in his Autobiography, Norton, 1958, pg. 94


He's saying "If there's no God, then man has a right to do whatever he wants to do" that's why people want to believe in Evolution and they don't want to believe "In the Beginning, God..." even tho it's obvious there is one...

No-one accused Darwin of being a philosopher - he's really wrong with that comment and the evidence proves how wrong he is. I'll listen to him on his theory of evolution, I disagree with him on this. But then Darwin was a religious man so I would expect him to have a religious view as he expressed.

[diuretic]

If Dahmer had no sense of Good and evil, why did he hide his actions of kidnapping and murder and torture and cannibalism ....and do what he did in darkness, not in the light?

Even Dahmer was born with the knowledge of good and evil. He knew what he was doing was wrong, evil.

He wasn't born with the knowledge of good and evil at all. None of us are. We have to learn what's defined as "good" (socially acceptable, approved) and "evil" (socially disapproved). Let me put it this way. If I were to take you and place you in the Western Desert of the Northern Territory here in Australia and asked you to live with a group of Western Desert aboriginal people, would you know how to live with them? Would you know what behaviours were accepted and which were taboos? I think not. You'd have to learn what was acceptable and what was not. If we're born with a knowledge of good and evil then you wouldn't need to learn how to behave with those Western Desert people.

Dahmer knew it was wrong to kill and eat people. It's not naturally wrong to kill and eat people, the behaviour has been seen so widely in humans that there must not be an instinctive control against it. It's entirely probable though that those humans who have had a culture of cannibalism didn't eat their own, preferring instead to kill and eat individuals of other tribal groups. Dahmer grew up in America. In America it's not acceptable to kill and eat people. As a child Dahmer would have been corrected, like any other child, from assaulting his fellows. From that training comes the understanding that you can't use force against another individual. So he would have learned that killing people is wrong. Now I'm sure he also knew that eating dead people was wrong too. His mother probably didn't say, "people aren't broccoli Jeffrey", but then she wouldn't have had to. His motivation for eating his victims was probably sexual. But whatever his motive was he had learned that killing and eating people was wrong, he wasn't born with that knowledge.

[diuretic]

You are in my prayers - you will need it one day

Sorry I missed that - that's a nice thought. I don't think I'll need your prayers but it's still a nice thought.

[red states rule]

Sorry I missed that - that's a nice thought. I don't think I'll need your prayers but it's still a nice thought.

You will one day. I hope they will make the difference

[diuretic]

You will one day. I hope they will make the difference

That reminds me of the Rowan Atkinson sketch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFGrQMD6Uqc

:D

[red states rule]

That reminds me of the Rowan Atkinson sketch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFGrQMD6Uqc

Joke now while you can - you wil find out one day it is not a joke

[PostmodernProphet]

If we're born with a knowledge of good and evil then you wouldn't need to learn how to behave with those Western Desert people.

yet, with only a few exceptions, people of all cultures share some basic commonalities about what is 'good' and what is 'evil'.....

[diuretic]

Joke now while you can - you wil find out one day it is not a joke

Ah, so your remark about prayers was just to mock me. You're going to Hell for that. :poke:

[diuretic]

yet, with only a few exceptions, people of all cultures share some basic commonalities about what is 'good' and what is 'evil'.....

Yes they do, because they're the same species. It's difficult to enumerate them but I think there could be broad agreement on several obvious points ("don't kill your child") but it'sthe origins that would cause dispute. As I said, for me it's down to instinct and then social mores which arise from evolutionary needs.

[red states rule]

Ah, so your remark about prayers was just to mock me. You're going to Hell for that. :poke:

Not mocking you at all. Putting in a good word for you with the Judge

[diuretic]

Not mocking you at all. Putting in a good word for you with the Judge

You'd better be fair dinkum or the Judge is going to sentence you for contempt :slap:

[PostmodernProphet]

As I said, for me it's down to instinct and then social mores which arise from evolutionary needs.


and I tend to attribute it differently.....

Jeremiah 31:33
"I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts."

[red states rule]

You'd better be fair dinkum or the Judge is going to sentence you for contempt :slap:

I will keep trying dispite you

[diuretic]

and I tend to attribute it differently.....

Jeremiah 31:33
"I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts."

Before the prophet Jeremiah was Hammurabi

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CODE.HTM

[PostmodernProphet]

Before the prophet Jeremiah was Hammurabi


and before Hammurabi was Moses.....by about 200 years....the only example of the Hammurabi Code we have dates from 1200 BC....

[diuretic]

and before Hammurabi was Moses.....by about 200 years....the only example of the Hammurabi Code we have dates from 1200 BC....

Yes, I saw it in the Louvre some years ago.

My point was that all humans share those basic instincts which are found reinforced in any criminal code, regardless of cultural origins and religious influence.

[JohnDoe]

He wasn't born with the knowledge of good and evil at all. None of us are. We have to learn what's defined as "good" (socially acceptable, approved) and "evil" (socially disapproved). Let me put it this way. If I were to take you and place you in the Western Desert of the Northern Territory here in Australia and asked you to live with a group of Western Desert aboriginal people, would you know how to live with them? Would you know what behaviours were accepted and which were taboos? I think not. You'd have to learn what was acceptable and what was not. If we're born with a knowledge of good and evil then you wouldn't need to learn how to behave with those Western Desert people.

Dahmer knew it was wrong to kill and eat people. It's not naturally wrong to kill and eat people, the behaviour has been seen so widely in humans that there must not be an instinctive control against it. It's entirely probable though that those humans who have had a culture of cannibalism didn't eat their own, preferring instead to kill and eat individuals of other tribal groups. Dahmer grew up in America. In America it's not acceptable to kill and eat people. As a child Dahmer would have been corrected, like any other child, from assaulting his fellows. From that training comes the understanding that you can't use force against another individual. So he would have learned that killing people is wrong. Now I'm sure he also knew that eating dead people was wrong too. His mother probably didn't say, "people aren't broccoli Jeffrey", but then she wouldn't have had to. His motivation for eating his victims was probably sexual. But whatever his motive was he had learned that killing and eating people was wrong, he wasn't born with that knowledge.

I respect your opinion and on a science level, agree with you, HOWEVER, I still believe "we are programed to recieve" this knowledge of good and evil...we are not an animal that is hard to train or tame! :)

[red states rule]

I respect your opinion and on a science level, agree with you, HOWEVER, I still believe "we are programed to recieve" this knowledge of good and evil...we are not an animal that is hard to train or tame! :)

On this one you are so right

Good morning, and I hope you and your family are doing well this morning

[JohnDoe]

On this one you are so right

Good morning, and I hope you and your family are doing well this morning

good morning rsr! :)

[red states rule]

good morning rsr! :)

You have a wonderful day and enjoy your new surroundings with your hubby

[diuretic]

I respect your opinion and on a science level, agree with you, HOWEVER, I still believe "we are programed to recieve" this knowledge of good and evil...we are not an animal that is hard to train or tame! :)

I'm with you on us being easy to train, that's very true. I suppose we're going to diverge on the origins of that tendency though, but that's fine, diversity of opinion is a good thing. My thinking on this is that it's an adaptive behaviour. To be an effective social animal we have to learn quickly to fit in with our social grouping. Those individuals who can't would have been exiled and perished without issue or may have been killed, again without reproducing. Only those who were able to "fit in" would have survived, thrived and reproduced and reinforced through reproduction the traits of cooperation and, to some extent, submission to the group will.

[JohnDoe]

I'm with you on us being easy to train, that's very true. I suppose we're going to diverge on the origins of that tendency though, but that's fine, diversity of opinion is a good thing. My thinking on this is that it's an adaptive behaviour. To be an effective social animal we have to learn quickly to fit in with our social grouping. Those individuals who can't would have been exiled and perished without issue or may have been killed, again without reproducing. Only those who were able to "fit in" would have survived, thrived and reproduced and reinforced through reproduction the traits of cooperation and, to some extent, submission to the group will.And PERHAPS the writen Word has contributed to our overall civility, over other animals that are out there? ;)

[diuretic]

And PERHAPS the writen Word has contributed to our overall civility, over other animals that are out there? ;)

No doubt appeals to the gods by those in authority would have had a quiescent effect on their followers but that would have been much later in human development. Individuals in authority have long had a practice of appealing to their gods, it was an idea that was only debunked by the Englightenment, at least in secular life, when the Divine Right of Kings was finally overturned. The idea still exists in the Catholich Church of course.

[-Cp]

I've read it, and Love to read it, so...no problem there with me!



I have never said that just because we inherited the knowledge of good and evil, that this means our nature is to choose good.

Adam and Eve, who were sin free at the point of choosing to disobey God, as far as I can tell, still chose to disobey him....and took a ''bite'' of that ''forbidden fruit''.

The Key word is chose.

This, IS Free Will.

God gave us free will.

Also, if we only inherently know Evil as the picked out passages imply, that you chose to use, then HOW could we also be made in the Image of God, both male and female?

And what significance, does the name of the tree that Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit from....The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil have to us?

jd



You're correct. .Adam and Eve did have free will - but that's only because they were made perfect - without sin....

They MADE the choice for the rest of us - to assert we have "free will" is to say we somehow had the option to be born sin-free...

The Bible says "Through ONE MAN, sin entered the world"..... again - Adam made the choice for ALL of humanity...

Our only inherent will is to sin - as outlined from the many scriptures I posted...

To say we have an ongoing "free will" is to suggest we can somehow ping-ping back and forth between a saved and unsaved state of being united with Christ - again, that does NOT gel with scripture...

[JohnDoe]

You're correct. .Adam and Eve did have free will - but that's only because they were made perfect - without sin....

They MADE the choice for the rest of us - to assert we have "free will" is to say we somehow had the option to be born sin-free...

The Bible says "Through ONE MAN, sin entered the world"..... again - Adam made the choice for ALL of humanity...

Our only inherent will is to sin - as outlined from the many scriptures I posted...

To say we have an ongoing "free will" is to suggest we can somehow ping-ping back and forth between a saved and unsaved state of being united with Christ - again, that does NOT gel with scripture...


Was Cain as good as Able? Were they brothers yet so different in their character or lack their of? Free will gives us the choice...before Original sin, there would have been no real choice to make because we were unaware of sin, of disobeidience to God's will....we were pure, until we ate from the fruit of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

Christ, was our second chance as Man...he was obedient to Gods word, from beginning to end, no matter the temptation. He wiped out the sinful nature we inherited from Adam, original sin, by serving our pennance for our sins, death....and then He overcame....

I am not talking about being saved or not saved. I do not believe the Knowledge of good and evil, saves us, one way or the other!!!

I am not arguing Faith without Works is Dead.

Just that we are somehow, unexplainable to me, born to know or acknowledge somewhere deep inside, right from wrong.

Bad people usually know they are being bad or deceitful or hurting someone, they just do it anyway, because they do not care enough to stop themselves...

It could be societal as Diuretic proclaims, but I choose to believe, that somehow, God, programed us to be this way after the point of Adam and Eve eating the apple.

jd

[-Cp]

Was Cain as good as Able? Were they brothers yet so different in their character or lack their of? Free will gives us the choice...before Original sin, there would have been no real choice to make because we were unaware of sin, of disobeidience to God's will....we were pure, until we ate from the fruit of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

Christ, was our second chance as Man...he was obedient to Gods word, from beginning to end, no matter the temptation. He wiped out the sinful nature we inherited from Adam, original sin, by serving our pennance for our sins, death....and then He overcame....

I am not talking about being saved or not saved. I do not believe the Knowledge of good and evil, saves us, one way or the other!!!

I am not arguing Faith without Works is Dead.

Just that we are somehow, unexplainable to me, born to know or acknowledge somewhere deep inside, right from wrong.

Bad people usually know they are being bad or deceitful or hurting someone, they just do it anyway, because they do not care enough to stop themselves...

It could be societal as Diuretic proclaims, but I choose to believe, that somehow, God, programed us to be this way after the point of Adam and Eve eating the apple.

jd


With all due respect, do you have ANY scripture at all to back up your analysis?

[darin]

To say we have an ongoing "free will" is to suggest we can somehow ping-ping back and forth between a saved and unsaved state of being united with Christ - again, that does NOT gel with scripture...

You are looking at this from the perspective of somebody who is limited by 'time'. To God, there is no ping-ponging back and forth between 'saved' and 'unsaved' for lack of better terms. See, for God - Everything is one Giant galactic 'Now'. God doesn't see us live our lives and wait anxiously to see how things turn out - He absolutely KNOWS who is with him in Heaven/eternity right now, because God (and we) are THERE, now. The problem is my use of the word 'now' because 'now' must be used in OUR context of time. Thus for me right 'now' is as I'm typing this, because my perspective of time shows me here. When we're with Him, in HIS time frame, there is no time constricting us to 'present' or 'past'.

Thus - from God's perspective Those he sees 'now' are those he 'knows' who have chosen him, ultimately. Get it?

[JohnDoe]

With all due respect, do you have ANY scripture at all to back up your analysis?

What is it that you disagree with, with my analysis?

Do you not believe that Cain was worse than Able?

Do you continue to believe that human beings that have not been exposed to our God, are incapable of not being murderers or thieves or whatever? In other words, do you truely believe Dahmer's statement, that becuase he did believe in Evolution he KILLED AND MURDERED the way he did?

Do you disagree that Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of knowledge of good and Evil and from that point on, we as humans had the knowledge of good and evil....before that time, we ONLY had the knowledge of good, sinfree Paradise in the garden of Eden?

Do you disagree with Christ's obeidience, denying the Devil's temptation in the dessert was the second chance of man's to redeem themselves, and that He was obeidient, until his death, which washed away our sins, especially original sin, with Baptism in Christ?

I am uncertain, on what you are disagreeing with and want Biblical support on CP? Let me know and I will try to defend it Scripturally?

[JohnDoe]

You are looking at this from the perspective of somebody who is limited by 'time'. To God, there is no ping-ponging back and forth between 'saved' and 'unsaved' for lack of better terms. See, for God - Everything is one Giant galactic 'Now'. God doesn't see us live our lives and wait anxiously to see how things turn out - He absolutely KNOWS who is with him in Heaven/eternity right now, because God (and we) are THERE, now. The problem is my use of the word 'now' because 'now' must be used in OUR context of time. Thus for me right 'now' is as I'm typing this, because my perspective of time shows me here. When we're with Him, in HIS time frame, there is no time constricting us to 'present' or 'past'.

Thus - from God's perspective Those he sees 'now' are those he 'knows' who have chosen him, ultimately. Get it?


Precisely. Omni present, knows past, present and future, which does not negate in anyway our own free will.

[-Cp]

What is it that you disagree with, with my analysis?

Do you not believe that Cain was worse than Able?

Do you continue to believe that human beings that have not been exposed to our God, are incapable of not being murderers or thieves or whatever? In other words, do you truely believe Dahmer's statement, that becuase he did believe in Evolution he KILLED AND MURDERED the way he did?

Do you disagree that Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of knowledge of good and Evil and from that point on, we as humans had the knowledge of good and evil....before that time, we ONLY had the knowledge of good, sinfree Paradise in the garden of Eden?

Do you disagree with Christ's obeidience, denying the Devil's temptation in the dessert was the second chance of man's to redeem themselves, and that He was obeidient, until his death, which washed away our sins, especially original sin, with Baptism in Christ?

I am uncertain, on what you are disagreeing with and want Biblical support on CP? Let me know and I will try to defend it Scripturally?

And yet you continue to avoid using ANY scripture to back up any of your claims... *sigh*..

[-Cp]

You are looking at this from the perspective of somebody who is limited by 'time'. To God, there is no ping-ponging back and forth between 'saved' and 'unsaved' for lack of better terms. See, for God - Everything is one Giant galactic 'Now'. God doesn't see us live our lives and wait anxiously to see how things turn out - He absolutely KNOWS who is with him in Heaven/eternity right now, because God (and we) are THERE, now. The problem is my use of the word 'now' because 'now' must be used in OUR context of time. Thus for me right 'now' is as I'm typing this, because my perspective of time shows me here. When we're with Him, in HIS time frame, there is no time constricting us to 'present' or 'past'.

Thus - from God's perspective Those he sees 'now' are those he 'knows' who have chosen him, ultimately. Get it?

Really? And what scriptures do you use to back up this statement? :)

[JohnDoe]

And yet you continue to avoid using ANY scripture to back up any of your claims... *sigh*..

*sigh*

What?

You want a passage to prove that Abel loved the Lord and followed Him, while Cain was envious of this, and killed Abel?

You want proof or scripture on the Adam and Eve story? And their CHOOSING, (through free will) to eat the forbidden fruit?


I have no idea what you are looking for CP and you continue to act like I should be some kind of "mind reader" in to what you diasagree with and want scriptural "proof" for...please, with writen words, ask me outright, ok?

jd

[JohnDoe]

Really? And what scriptures do you use to back up this statement? :)

The reason our names are writen in the Book of Life before we are born IS because God knows all, past present and future. He knows what ends our own free will will bring us to, before they ever even occur to us.

He knows who will be His chosen because He has already seen the future type thingy....

THIS IS how I was taught, in my Christian Faith....yours is apparently different?

jd

[-Cp]

*sigh*

What?

You want a passage to prove that Abel loved the Lord and followed Him, while Cain was envious of this, and killed Abel?

You want proof or scripture on the Adam and Eve story? And their CHOOSING, (through free will) to eat the forbidden fruit?


I have no idea what you are looking for CP and you continue to act like I should be some kind of "mind reader" in to what you diasagree with and want scriptural "proof" for...please, with writen words, ask me outright, ok?

jd


I would like you to provide scriptural evidence for your claims that mankind - since Adam has "free will" (the abililty to bounce in and out of salvation)...

Or perhaps your'e confusing "free will" with behavior choices? i.e. What pants and shirt will I wear today?

[JohnDoe]

I would like you to provide scriptural evidence for your claims that mankind - since Adam has "free will" (the abililty to bounce in and out of salvation)...

Or perhaps your'e confusing "free will" with behavior choices? i.e. What pants and shirt will I wear today?

No, Actually, I believe that Adam and Eve had free will in them when God asked them to not eat the forbidden Fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Just by them making the CHOICE to eat this Fruit PROVES that man, was given, the ability to choose, between right and wrong. go to Genesis and see the progression of the Adam and Eve story.... Man was born with Free will, and once man had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they were made aware of sin....of evil....and then covered their nakedness with fig leaves.... :D

surely you know the scripture without me bringing it forth?

jd

[-Cp]

No, Actually, I believe that Adam and Eve had free will in them when God asked them to not eat the forbidden Fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Just by them making the CHOICE to eat this Fruit PROVES that man, was given, the ability to choose, between right and wrong. go to Genesis and see the progression of the Adam and Eve story.... Man was born with Free will, and once man had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they were made aware of sin....of evil....and then covered their nakedness with fig leaves.... :D

surely you know the scripture without me bringing it forth?

jd


No.. really.. bring it forth...

[JohnDoe]

No.. really.. bring it forth...

You asked and ye shall receive! :)

They both chose to disobey God, this Choice had a right decision and a wrong decision to make....once made (thru their free will to choose) we were made aware of both good and evil....we were given the same knowledge that only God had held previous to this, is the way it reads.


Genesis 3
The Fall of Man
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"

10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."

11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush [b] your head,
and you will strike his heel."

16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

20 Adam [c] named his wife Eve, [d] because she would become the mother of all the living.

21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

[Pale Rider]

You are looking at this from the perspective of somebody who is limited by 'time'. To God, there is no ping-ponging back and forth between 'saved' and 'unsaved' for lack of better terms. See, for God - Everything is one Giant galactic 'Now'. God doesn't see us live our lives and wait anxiously to see how things turn out - He absolutely KNOWS who is with him in Heaven/eternity right now, because God (and we) are THERE, now. The problem is my use of the word 'now' because 'now' must be used in OUR context of time. Thus for me right 'now' is as I'm typing this, because my perspective of time shows me here. When we're with Him, in HIS time frame, there is no time constricting us to 'present' or 'past'.

Thus - from God's perspective Those he sees 'now' are those he 'knows' who have chosen him, ultimately. Get it?

Revelation 1:8 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain


8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=1&verse=8&version=9&context=verse

[Black Lance]

You asked and ye shall receive! :)

They both chose to disobey God, this Choice had a right decision and a wrong decision to make....once made (thru their free will to choose) we were made aware of both good and evil....we were given the same knowledge that only God had held previous to this, is the way it reads.

The passage does not state that either Adam or Eve made a choice. It merely describes them taking actions as a response to situations.

[JohnDoe]

The passage does not state that either Adam or Eve made a choice. It merely describes them taking actions as a response to situations.That's simply not true BL? They most certainly had a choice to obey God's rule regarding the eating of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil.

They most certainly CHOSE to DISOBEY GOD, Eve by listening to the Devil's reasoning for it being okay to eat the fruit from this tree by misleading her.... and Adam by taking and eating the fruit from Eve....

They BOTH had the free will to obey God, or to disobey God's rule to not eat this forbidden fruit from this Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

I repeat, they CHOSE to disobey God.

They had Free Will to make this choice, there is no other way to explain it and NO way around it....imo. Free will was given to us by God, or part of God's creation plan for us....I would have to presume?

the disobeidience is part of the main Adam and Eve story BL? This takes a decision to disobey and then the action of doing such.....free will!!!

:D jd

[Black Lance]

That's simply not true BL? They most certainly had a choice to obey God's rule regarding the eating of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil.

They most certainly CHOSE to DISOBEY GOD, Eve by listening to the Devil's reasoning for it being okay to eat the fruit from this tree by misleading her.... and Adam by taking and eating the fruit from Eve....

They BOTH had the free will to obey God, or to disobey God's rule to not eat this forbidden fruit from this Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

I repeat, they CHOSE to disobey God.

They had Free Will to make this choice, there is no other way to explain it and NO way around it....imo. Free will was given to us by God, or part of God's creation plan for us....I would have to presume?

the disobeidience is part of the main Adam and Eve story BL? This takes a decision to disobey and then the action of doing such.....free will!!!

:D jd

I don't know if they had free will or not. My point is simply that the text never states that Adam or Eve made a choice, it simply describes their actions, and what motivated those actions.

As a Christian, you can make a case for or against free will. I am undecided on this issue, but let me play devil's advocate for the no free will crowd.

Answer me this JohnDoe: is free will a result of the brain, or the soul? If the brain, how does this work, given that the human nervous system is based around chemical stimulants and nerve messenges producing a scripted outcome? If it is a product of the soul, does this mean our decisions cannot be mapped by actions of the mind? And if some of our decisions cannot be mapped physically, doesn't this prove that a spiritual realm of existence must be real, thereby undermining faith, which is so central to salvation? Also, how does the soul send commands to the body?

[JohnDoe]

I don't know if they had free will or not. My point is simply that the text never states that Adam or Eve made a choice, it simply describes their actions, and what motivated those actions.

As a Christian, you can make a case for or against free will. I am undecided on this issue, but let me play devil's advocate for the no free will crowd.

Answer me this JohnDoe: is free will a result of the brain, or the soul? If the brain, how does this work, given that the human nervous system is based around chemical stimulants and nerve messenges producing a scripted outcome? If it is a product of the soul, does this mean our decisions cannot be mapped by actions of the mind? And if some of our decisions cannot be mapped physically, doesn't this prove that a spiritual realm of existence must be real, thereby undermining faith, which is so central to salvation? Also, how does the soul send commands to the body?

hahahahaha! Oh my goodness BL, those are some hard questions!!!! I have been out of school for over 20 years, and I can't remember ever having to think so deeply!!! :)

But I will try.....and let my first answer be, "I have NO CLUE!" :D

Now beyond this....and in extremely simple, layman's terms....

My beliefs are based on Faith and Faith alone....but if I were to venture outside of faith I think in arguing for free will, I would say that until a few days ago, I was not so certain what passages could be used to affirm free will verses destination....but some how, when I thought about Adam and Eve and them eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil as an argument for us all having the knowledge to reason and know what is good and what is not good, due to what we have been told from this scripture....

and that all man has this ability, with or without religion, to know the simplistic right from wrong doings and this has been proven throughout history....and free will along with eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil... so now having the ability to reason and choose good or evil....

Anyway, from this, and with the discussions with my husband, we both came to realize that the Adam and Eve Story certainly confirmed in our opinions, that free wil certainly was a part of the entire story....

and it is silly in my opinion to say the Bible didn't say that, because it specifically says it in my opinion and his. Plus, the gist of the story was that the serpent, the Devil, mislead Eve in to disregarding what she knew God wanted of her and she chose to disobey God and so did Adam..., they chose to do the "forbidden"....

the word "chose" is not in there, but the script of the scene shows you what they chose, so it was indirectly in there!

Choosing IS free will.

Does this choice come from the soul, the heart or brainwaves or a genetic bar code ...does not matter to me...and I do not know these answers, though quite interesting questions!!!

you made me smile though.... :)

jd

[-Cp]

Anyway, from this, and with the discussions with my husband, we both came to realize that the Adam and Eve Story certainly confirmed in our opinions, that free wil certainly was a part of the entire story....

Wouldn't this mean you're a "JaneDoe"? :)

[eighballsidepocket]

Jeffrey Dahmer brutally murdered more than 17 boys and men before being caught and sentenced to serve a life sentence in prison. At the time of his arrest, three human heads were found along with numerous other body parts in his apartment. Prior to Dahmer himself being beaten to death on November 28, 1994 by an inmate in prison, he became a Christian. In an interview, with NBC Dateline nine months before his death (which aired on November 29, 1994) Jeffrey Dahmer stated this:

If you don't--if a person doesn't think that there is a God to be accountable to, then--then what's--what's the point of--of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? That's how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just came from the slime. When we--when we died, you know, that was it, there is nothing, and I've since come to believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is truly God, and I believe that I, as well as everyone else, will be accountable to him.

Dateline NBC: The Final Interview (NBC television broadcast, Nov. 29, 1994).

Man alive! I never heard that about Dahmer. If I remember he was into Satanic, stuff that contributed to his abherrent, psychotic murdering sprees.

I wonder whom or how he was exposed to the gospel while in prison.

If Dahmer isn't pulling a little psychotic fun with the Jesus/salvation thing, then that is one incredible miracle of God, in my book.

CP: Did he/Dahmer express remorse for the murders in any article? Even remorse for the families that lost these loved ones?

I think that if he became a bonafide Christian, that this would also be evidenced in his salvation.
******
There's been so many well known's in the past who have claimed to have become saved.....i.e. Glen Campbell, B.J. Thomas, Jane Fonda etc... The bible says that true salvation will be evidenced by good "fruit" in one's life thereafter.
******
No matter how terrible Dahmers crimes were, it is not me to judge if his salvation was a ruse or the real thing. I suppose in time many of us will find out the actual truth.
******
In Jesus's days on earth, thiefs and murderers fell at His feet and repented.
*******

[JohnDoe]

Wouldn't this mean you're a "JaneDoe"? :) yep!

JohnDoe is JaneDoe's alias id......her troll! :D

hahaha!

:dance:

[-Cp]

Man alive! I never heard that about Dahmer. If I remember he was into Satanic, stuff that contributed to his abherrent, psychotic murdering sprees.

I wonder whom or how he was exposed to the gospel while in prison.

If Dahmer isn't pulling a little psychotic fun with the Jesus/salvation thing, then that is one incredible miracle of God, in my book.

CP: Did he/Dahmer express remorse for the murders in any article? Even remorse for the families that lost these loved ones?

I think that if he became a bonafide Christian, that this would also be evidenced in his salvation.
******
There's been so many well known's in the past who have claimed to have become saved.....i.e. Glen Campbell, B.J. Thomas, Jane Fonda etc... The bible says that true salvation will be evidenced by good "fruit" in one's life thereafter.
******
No matter how terrible Dahmers crimes were, it is not me to judge if his salvation was a ruse or the real thing. I suppose in time many of us will find out the actual truth.
******
In Jesus's days on earth, thiefs and murderers fell at His feet and repented.
*******


Dahmer served his time at the Columbia Correctional Institution in Portage, Wisconsin, where he ultimately declared himself a born-again Christian. A local preacher named Roy Ratcliff even met with Dahmer and agreed to baptize him.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer

[GW in Ohio]

Jeffrey Dahmer brutally murdered more than 17 boys and men before being caught and sentenced to serve a life sentence in prison. At the time of his arrest, three human heads were found along with numerous other body parts in his apartment. Prior to Dahmer himself being beaten to death on November 28, 1994 by an inmate in prison, he became a Christian. In an interview, with NBC Dateline nine months before his death (which aired on November 29, 1994) Jeffrey Dahmer stated this:

If you don't--if a person doesn't think that there is a God to be accountable to, then--then what's--what's the point of--of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? That's how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just came from the slime. When we--when we died, you know, that was it, there is nothing, and I've since come to believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is truly God, and I believe that I, as well as everyone else, will be accountable to him.

Dateline NBC: The Final Interview (NBC television broadcast, Nov. 29, 1994).


Why do you assume that liberals don't believe in God, or are not religious?

Is it because many liberals don't subscribe to your God? Is it because many liberals buy into the theory of evolution instead of the fairy tales the Bible provides?

[red states rule]

Why do you assume that liberals don't believe in God, or are not religious?

Is it because many liberals don't subscribe to your God? Is it because many liberals buy into the theory of evolution instead of the fairy tales the Bible provides?

Maybe becaiuse it is liberals who want to remove all referecnes of God from the public view, yet do not bother other Religions?

The lefts annual war on Christmas will begin in a few months as it does every year

[-Cp]

Why do you assume that liberals don't believe in God, or are not religious?

Is it because many liberals don't subscribe to your God? Is it because many liberals buy into the theory of evolution instead of the fairy tales the Bible provides?

Because once the God's spirit resides in you - you no longer have the desire to support sin or any political issue that results in sin. You also know that the Scriptures speak truth into the hearts of men.

But none of this makes sense until you ask Christ into your life and to take your place for sin.

[GW in Ohio]

Because once the God's spirit resides in you - you no longer have the desire to support sin or any political issue that results in sin. You also know that the Scriptures speak truth into the hearts of men.

But none of this makes sense until you ask Christ into your life and to take your place for sin.

Cp: You think liberalism = sin, don't'cha?

[red states rule]

Cp: You think liberalism = sin, don't'cha?

When he made liberalism and liberals, God was having an off day