hell and death are already gone; they are no more

[darin]

To discuss the statement in the subject we have to agree on a couple points of view:

First - God and the area/space/reality God occupies is not bound by what we perceive as time. For example - God is not wherever God is counting the years going by and 'waiting' for time to pass before things happen.

- If we cannot agree God is bound to our perception of time we can't have any further discussion.

- If God is bound by our perception of time, God has an actual age. Yearly age.

So - if we agree we have to talk about things like "When". We have to agree the Bible tells us things that are true.

"At some point" Sheol/Hades will be 'cast into the lake of fire' and death and sin shall be no more.

I argue - based on the perspective of somebody who is Not within our time stream, that has very-much already happened. Because time is weird. You know, if Aliens were looking at Earth through telescopes today - Right now - their truth tells them our planet is inhabited only by dinosaurs. That's real. That's their right-now-reality. For us it's been millions of years.

Now thing about wherever God is - and God 'casting death and sin into the lake of fire' - and we looked at it through our Telescopes, we might see only - I dunno...something that happened at teh spot we're looking millions of years ago too.

But for God - everything that has done, is done.

To top it off - because of God's realm being outside our time sensations/perspective. And when christ died he already WENT to 'hell' and preached to and freed those held-captive....every soul who ever had or who ever 'will' go to that place was freed. Then Christ secured Hell and holds the keys to that place.


All that is/has/was done in a perspective of time we are not yet at.


This man explains what he believes, and I believe it - he doesn't touch the time-travel-esque stuff, but he explains with references.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F27jxwHDrzM


Another


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBM2XDOX94Q

[revelarts]

concerning your 2nd video.
For anyone who's studied the subject a bit they'd know that the guy got the original words right.
But what he "THINKS" about them is wrong. he is correct that the outer darkness is tossed into the lake of fire at the end, and that the poplar one-stop-shop view of the afterlife is not a complete representation of what the Bible teaches.
But what the popular view does have right is that Sheol, Ghenna and the Lake of Fire are ALL places of torment after death.


a quick reading of revelation 20 makes that clear


,
"10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."


.
(Seems "for ever and ever" might mean forever no matter what you POV time wise is concerned)
Your speaker MAKES UP the idea that the Lake of fire IS GOD and basically HEAVEN.
He plays with the word "brimstone"
He says that Brimstone is Synonymous with God's Being, and "the Fire of God", Jesus and the Fire of God's LOVE .
but Revelation 14 says
If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

So what kind of reinterpreting of the the words "wrath", "Anger" and "torment" do we have do here to try and pretend that "brimstone" REALLY MEANS the inside of God's loving heart making it all better. And that hell --as we generally understand it as a place of torment-- is completely wrong. Not to mention that in every other place the word brimstone is used it's in the context of punishment.

That dude is a just false teacher dmp.
Jesus warned about them too.
look it up.

[BoogyMan]

Where do I start as so much of the OP has NOTHING to do with what the Bible teaches and everything to do with the modern doctrine of comfort, regardless of how it misrepresents the truth.

The Bible teaches us that:

Hell is real: Luke 12:4-5 - “And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!”

Hell is a horrible place: Matthew 25:41 - “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’”

Matthew 13:41-42 - “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’”

Anyone can go there: Romans 11:22 - “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

It is a place of eternal duration: Jude 6-7 - “The angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

Many will be there: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,nor sodomites, 10nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”
Matthew 25:41 - “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’”

It is a place of no escape: Luke 16:26 - “And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.”

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 - “In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.”

It can be avoided: Hebrews 5:9 - “And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.”

[darin]

Seems painfully clear you guys dont really care what words mean; youre mostly into what you've been taught. Also seems you are just fine with god "losing" the battle for souls to Satan. And you are okay with god's mercy and love being finite, AND god's will having no power.

[LongTermGuy]

".....based on the perspective of somebody who is Not within our time stream, that has very-much already happened. Because time is weird. You know, if Aliens were looking at Earth through telescopes today - "Right now - `their` truth tells them" our planet is inhabited only by dinosaurs. That's real. That's their right-now-reality. For us it's been millions of years."

[darin]

".....based on the perspective of somebody who is Not within our time stream, that has very-much already happened. Because time is weird. You know, if Aliens were looking at Earth through telescopes today - "Right now - `their` truth tells them" our planet is inhabited only by dinosaurs. That's real. That's their right-now-reality. For us it's been millions of years."




because time is dependent upon the observer. #science.

[darin]

Here's the point with this entire thread:

Looking at scripture holistically and using what we know to be true of god we can bypass mere symbology and semantics to really understand the nature of God - which is what?

Love.


Oh hell:



In the Revelation, the Lake of Fire is often referred to as the Lake of Fire and Brimstone. In the Old Testament “brimstone” falls from the heavens and the breath of Yahweh is like brimstone (Isaiah 30:33). In the Revelation, the Greek word for “brimstone” is “theion.” I am NO language scholar but it is my understanding that “theion” can also be translated as “divine being” (Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains). Perhaps this lake is the “Lake of Fire and Divinity” or “Lake of Fire that is Divinity” (if the “kai” is epexegetical), or “Lake of Fire that burns with Divinity” (Rev. 19:20). Some would certainly disagree, but whatever the case, it seems that “theion” is closely tied to “Theos.” Of course, the fire is eternal if the fire is in some sense divinity. The fire has no end because it is the End.


Torment for darkness is to be exposed to the Light. Torment for lies is to be exposed to Truth. Torment for death is to be exposed to Life. Torment for any impurity is to be exposed to the Consuming Fire. Because the agent of torment is eternal, it does not mean the experience of torment is unending. Sodom and Gomorrah underwent “the punishment of Eternal Fire” (Jude 7). This does not mean that Sodom and Gomorrah continually and without end experience the torment of Eternal Fire.

...
Ephesians 4:8 and 1 Peter 3:19 both seem to speak of Jesus descending and preaching in Hades. We state this in the Apostle’s Creed. According to 2 Peter and Jude, angels appear to be kept in this place until the “judgment of the great day.” Hades is at least a temporal reality. That is, it is a place in the flow of chronological time. In Revelation 20:13, “Death and Hades” are “thrown into the Lake of Fire.” It seems that Hades CANNOT be the same thing as The Lake of Fire if, in fact, God casts Hades into the Lake of Fire. Revelation 21:4 then states that “death shall be no more.” It does not explicitly state that “Hades” will be no more, yet it seems understood by the text. And if it does exist after, outside of, or beyond this temporal experience it must not be a place of “death” for “death is no more.” Scripture seems to indicate that Hades comes to an End in The Lake of Fire. It may be that even “temporality” (“chronos”—time as we experience it now) comes to an End in The Lake of Fire. As the Angel states in Rev. 10:6, “Time (chronos) shall be no more.”



And - Keep in mind...

Christ "already" descended into Hell and freed the prisoners.

That's fact. Yes?

Therefore "hell" as a place of 'eternal punishment' would therefore be empty - unless Hell is bound by the constraints of Time we here on earth are subject to.

[revelarts]

Seems painfully clear you guys dont really care what words mean; youre mostly into what you've been taught. ...

Here's the point with this entire thread:
Looking at scripture holistically and using what we know to be true of god we can bypass mere symbology and semantics to really understand the nature of God - which is what?Love.


so 1st you say we DON'T CARE what words MEAN.
Then you say we can BYPASS what words MEAN.
seriously?

Then you also accuse others of clinging to what we've been taught.
but weren't you TAUGHT this stuff you preaching DMP?
please stop making up motives for others, stick to the facts of the text, if you've got a point to make.

the point here is what does the TEXT mean, Yes HOLISTICALLY, Honestly Objectively.
what you are doing here is imposing an END that you like, and twisting and ignoring scriptures you don't like to conform to the vision you've constructed of God and his love.

Here's the thing. we don't get to make up The way it is because we're not comfortable with it.
God does in fact defeat Satan he has ...from the beginning... as you say. but that doesn't mean that he has not allowed some causalities. and He's honest enough to tell us so. If God is as you say, there'd be NO suffering AT ALL... ever.
But God has allowed it He's more than LOVE he's Justice and Purity as well. the attributes are Subject TO HIM. He's not subject to them in some abstract way. He describes himself as a personally not a concept. Holistically speaking.





Oh hell:
And - Keep in mind...
Christ "already" descended into Hell and freed the prisoners.
That's fact. Yes?
Therefore "hell" as a place of 'eternal punishment' would therefore be empty - unless Hell is bound by the constraints of Time we here on earth are subject to.


your guy already mentioned there were 3 words for Hell.
And it is interesting that you bring up a concept about "hell" that is not explicitly mentioned.
Can you please quote where Jesus FREED any prisoners from "Hell".
maybe i missed it.
Peter says that Jesus "preached" to the spirits that are NOW in "prison".

Doesn't say anything about anyone being freed.
And there are larger interpretation issues with those verses but before we even get there we see that your assertion has no scripture to ground it.

Definitely nothing from Jesus about it. Who's words you seem to think are MOST important.
The verses that you hang the "FACT" that Jesus "freed the prisoners" on are a stretch at best but more frankly none existent.

So your "therefore" does not follow from that.
Plus EVEN IF there were scripture that said that Jesus emptied 'hell' at one point (theres not). the Book of Revelations still clearly says that many people are tragically sent into the fire after the final judgment.

concerning Brimstome
And I'm not sure what he's doing with the word brimstone it's weird. and he's admits he's not a scholar.
But in general in old and new testament brimstone is associated with Judgment.
the 1st time it's used it's with God raining down on Sodom and Gomorrah no less.
2nd time Moses mention it in with reference to Sodom and Gomorrah
In JOB, the Psalms and the prophets it's in reference to Judgment and destruction of the wicked. also all points in the new testament.

why MAKE UP anything else to make us feel better it's a lie to do so.
God is a God of LOVE and TRUTH...
and JUSTICE and PURITY none of those attributed are diminished in his person.

[Gunny]

Seems painfully clear you guys dont really care what words mean; youre mostly into what you've been taught. Also seems you are just fine with god "losing" the battle for souls to Satan. And you are okay with god's mercy and love being finite, AND god's will having no power.you contradict yourself at least twice.

How do you know your aliens aren't seeing a million years into our future? AND ... you are superimposing YOUR (Man's) concept of time on the Universe.

[Black Diamond]

you contradict yourself at least twice.

How do you know your aliens aren't seeing a million years into our future? AND ... you are superimposing YOUR (Man's) concept of time on the Universe.
Does time even exist for God?

[BoogyMan]

Seems painfully clear you guys dont really care what words mean; youre mostly into what you've been taught. Also seems you are just fine with god "losing" the battle for souls to Satan. And you are okay with god's mercy and love being finite, AND god's will having no power.

Wrong and simplistic. I am into what the Bible actually says, not what someone would like it to say.

In 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, Paul shows us that one can run the race and without care be lost. "Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified."

God doesn't lose the battle to Satan when man makes the choice to live in sin, man does.

[Gunny]

Does time even exist for God?I usully don't try to figure out God. Man's arrogance to define God is limited to Man's intellect. Last I checked, we haven;t Man hasn't created a Universe and at least one known planet full of men who believe THEY are "God".

[Black Diamond]

I usully don't try to figure out God. Man's arrogance to define God is limited to Man's intellect. Last I checked, we haven;t Man hasn't created a Universe and at least one known planet full of men who believe THEY are "God".
Sometimes he is beyond comprehension.

[aboutime]

Long ago. When my father first began telling me about life. I remember how he warned, and warned, warned again about NOT DISCUSSING RELIGION, and POLITICS, because...as he also warned; "You will never win....ever!"

Seems this entire thread is proving my father right.

Since there is no reason to try to explain, defend, or bother with the subject realistically. I can rest in my own FAITH. My own religious beliefs are based on FAITH.
Unseen, and therefore....not something to argue about with anyone who believes otherwise because NOBODY CAN TAKE AWAY MY FAITH in what some declare is non-existent, or unbelievable....that is what the power of FAITH has over those who have none, and feel a need to brag about NOT BELIEVING.
If it is so important for some NOT to believe. Good for you. I HAVE FAITH, and you DON'T.
POLITICS...on the other hand. Is merely a different form of religion for too many. Which I enjoy laughing at.

[darin]

you contradict yourself at least twice.

How do you know your aliens aren't seeing a million years into our future? AND ... you are superimposing YOUR (Man's) concept of time on the Universe.

Its an example to show the relative nature of time - I can talk slower if that helps. :)

Time is based on who is observing. "Now" is relative to the observer. So is "Then" and so is "Was". that's the point of the illustration

[SassyLady]

Dmp ... no hell, no death? If so, what does the alien telescope show is next?

[Drummond]

I believe that the Universe was created by God. That the Universe is an entity functioning much as a machine does. It was created. It has design parameters, and those parameters are the laws it operates by.

Time is one such defining parameter of the Universal 'machine'. It is a function of it, possibly analogous to the need a car has for fuel ... time lets the Universe 'run' from beginning to end.

It stands to reason that if time is a function of the Universe, and God created the Universe, then, God is outside of time (.. unless you somehow believe God to be limited by, and is a product of, His own creation ??). If God has any defining 'time' within which He operates, it would of necessity be separate and distinct from the timestream the Universe experiences.

I believe that God exists, and the very fact of the Universe's existence is outright proof of God (how else COULD the Universe have ever come into being ?). But, this would be a God entirely outside of any of the Universe's limitations, existing separately from it, as the owner of a car exists separately from his vehicle. We have no conception of the way God exists, because anything beyond our Universe and our experience of it is entirely alien to anything we can conceive of.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I believe that the Universe was created by God. That the Universe is an entity functioning much as a machine does. It was created. It has design parameters, and those parameters are the laws it operates by.

Time is one such defining parameter of the Universal 'machine'. It is a function of it, possibly analogous to the need a car has for fuel ... time lets the Universe 'run' from beginning to end.

It stands to reason that if time is a function of the Universe, and God created the Universe, then, God is outside of time (.. unless you somehow believe God to be limited by, and is a product of, His own creation ??). If God has any defining 'time' within which He operates, it would of necessity be separate and distinct from the timestream the Universe experiences.

I believe that God exists, and the very fact of the Universe's existence is outright proof of God (how else COULD the Universe have ever come into being ?). But, this would be a God entirely outside of any of the Universe's limitations, existing separately from it, as the owner of a car exists separately from his vehicle. We have no conception of the way God exists, because anything beyond our Universe and our experience of it is entirely alien to anything we can conceive of.

Man in state of flesh and bone can not truly understand the magnitude of God's power, love and design, AND INTENDED PURPOSE IN OUR CREATION AND HIS ALLOWING OUR FALL... IMHO.
Yet by faith we may have eternal life and be ready to understand once we are free from sin and the darkness that welcomes it and its negative results. Free from sin by grace of God, not by any of our good deeds but rather by faith in the truth of the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ, as PAYMENT FOR OUR SINS....-Tyr

[Gunny]

Its an example to show the relative nature of time - I can talk slower if that helps. :)

Time is based on who is observing. "Now" is relative to the observer. So is "Then" and so is "Was". that's the point of the illustration

Perhaps you SHOULD slow down ... But not on my account. I know EXACTLY what you are saying. You are attempting to make an intellectual argument where none exists. Time is relative and based on an a Man-made calendar that uses the Earth's rotation of the Sun as it's primary rule.

Anything beyond that is pure conjecture limited by Man's intellect and we --as Man -- don't have the answer.

[aboutime]

Time is counted by the speed of light. Think about it.

Ask yourself this simple question. If you are traveling at the speed of light in a supersonic aircraft at 186,000 feet per second, and you turn on a Flashlight.
DOES THE LIGHT COME ON?:duh5: