Anyone Have Thoughts On Wikileaks and Intelligence Releases? [Archive] - Debate Policy

LongTermGuy

03-08-2017, 12:22 AM

`WIKILEAKS TEACHES `US` ABOUT HOW THE U.S. / "Implanted" "Obama" LIBERALS OPERATE`

http://www.newsweek.com/emb-midnight-827-assange-what-wikileaks-teaches-us-about-how-us-operates-366364

`Wikileaks Provided `us` An Update On Their Internet Being Cut By Obama To Keep Americans In The Dark About Hillary`

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-u1vMgH7548s/WAbHoFDhnNI/AAAAAAAAap0/P3ESYII54LoLOPIaRBKc_iicMjGNx_fuACK4B/s400/Cuz8rwFWcAA5T-O.jpg
https://sitsshow.blogspot.com/2016/10/wikileaks-update-on-julian-assanges-internet-outage-big-surprise-looks-like-it-was-the-obama-administration.html

`The 'Service' WikiLeaks Provides is No Treason`

http://worldmeets.us/berlinerzeitung000005.shtml#axzz4ahzVQGpD

`Wikileaks claims to reveal how "Implanted Obama" CIA hacks TVs and phones all over the world`

http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/07/technology/wikileaks-cia-hacking/index.html

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/wikileaks-internet-down-julian-assange/2016/10/21/id/754780/

Noir

03-08-2017, 08:41 AM

Would of gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those damned kids.

https://youtu.be/PxU8jierhJg

BoogyMan

03-08-2017, 12:50 PM

I've been waiting all day for someone to bring it up.

Waiting for the other shoe to drop. It would seem there is a huge internal battle for control of DC that is ongoing and ugly and we only see what is vetted and cleared for prole consumption. Our country is in trouble and not because of Trump.

revelarts

03-08-2017, 01:26 PM

I've been waiting all day for someone to bring it up.

Has anyone even read what i've posted on this kind of activity since the Bush admin tossed constitutional law under the bus after 911? ( yes, continued and expanded on a bit by Obama, with more to come under Trump)

Seems i've mentioned a time or 2 that the CIA, NSA and other agencies can, have been and are spying on anyone they like... At anytime... through various devices... and have phone recordings... and the emails etc of everyone in the U.S. ... terrorist or not... and also have deals with the U.K. and other NATO nations to listen to and view whatever the U.S. spies may have ...by some happenstance... missed here in the U.S. So as the U.K.'s MI6 spies on U.S. citizens it HAPPENS to past that info on to the FBI etc.. That makes it "constitutional" right? And Of Course the Fbi CIA and NSA return the MI6's favor by passing on info about U.K. subjects of interest.
But whatever it keeps us "safe"!!! That's ALL that really matters... at least when the right president is in the White House. Can't trust those stinking #%!*#$%&@ lefties with that kinda power and discretion.

But yeah, it's a horrible SHOCK that this top secret info about how the gov't is unconstitutional spying on anyone it feels like has SUDDENLY been revealed?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/c7/f9/a0/c7f9a00023968695f0fe0e774862e603.jpg

Black Diamond

03-08-2017, 01:36 PM

Has anyone even read what i've posted on this kind of activity since the Bush admin tossed constitutional law under the bus after 911? ( yes, continued and expanded on a bit by Obama, with more to come under Trump)

Seems i've mentioned a time or 2 that the CIA, NSA and other agencies can, have been and are spying on anyone they like... At anytime... through various devices... and have phone recordings... and the emails etc of everyone in the U.S. ... terrorist or not... and also have deals with the U.K. and other NATO nations to listen to and view whatever the U.S. spies may have ...by some happenstance... missed here in the U.S. So as the U.K.'s MI6 spies on U.S. citizens it HAPPENS to past that info on to the FBI etc.. That makes it "constitutional" right? And Of Course the Fbi CIA and NSA return the MI6's favor by passing on info about U.K. subjects of interest.
But whatever it keeps us "safe"!!! That's ALL that really matters... at least when the right president is in the White House. Can't trust those stinking #%!*#$%&@ lefties with that kinda power and discretion.

But yeah, it's a horrible SHOCK that this top secret info about how the gov't is unconstitutional spying on anyone it feels like has SUDDENLY been revealed?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/c7/f9/a0/c7f9a00023968695f0fe0e774862e603.jpg

Good to see you again, rev.

jimnyc

03-08-2017, 02:18 PM

I've been waiting all day for someone to bring it up.

The leakers, of national security info such as this, need to be caught and locked up, IMO. And yeps, I'm aware of how leaks helped Trump, before anyone asks. Those hackers/leakers should also be prosecuted, perhaps to a different extent.

Kathianne

03-08-2017, 03:51 PM

The leakers, of national security info such as this, need to be caught and locked up, IMO. And yeps, I'm aware of how leaks helped Trump, before anyone asks. Those hackers/leakers should also be prosecuted, perhaps to a different extent.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the penalties are the same, regardless of whether most think 'good intentions' or not.

Black Diamond

03-08-2017, 03:55 PM

The leakers, of national security info such as this, need to be caught and locked up, IMO. And yeps, I'm aware of how leaks helped Trump, before anyone asks. Those hackers/leakers should also be prosecuted, perhaps to a different extent.
Agreed. But I will say forever that with the Billy Bush tape, which was also a leak, it was a wash.

revelarts

03-08-2017, 06:24 PM

The leakers, of national security info such as this, need to be caught and locked up, IMO. And yeps, I'm aware of how leaks helped Trump, before anyone asks. Those hackers/leakers should also be prosecuted, perhaps to a different extent.

Ok, so the leakers should be prosecuted, let's say they are, and they go to jail. fine.
So now we're ALSO still left with the facts that are leaked that show that the CIA and other agencies have also broken the laws.
Seems to me they should "be prosecuted" as well.
Since breaking the law for a 'good cause' is not a legitimate excuse. right?

Russ

03-08-2017, 06:38 PM

Yes, anyone who listened in or watched the private lives of US citizens through their smartphones or smart TVs, without the due process of getting permission, should have their heads handed to them.

aboutime

03-08-2017, 06:55 PM

ANYONE who intentionally LEAKS National Security Secrets, classified information, or verbally shares classified information WITH ANYONE who does not have a Security Clearance....should be prosecuted as a SPY, or TRAITOR to the nation, and the American people.
Much the same as ANYONE here ILLEGALLY, is breaking the LAW.
PERIOD

Abbey Marie

03-08-2017, 08:38 PM

I try to get worked up about such things, but I just can't. It is what it is.

And anyone one who is listening in on my conversations is probably going to fall asleep. ;)

jimnyc

03-09-2017, 01:30 PM

Actually, I'm pretty sure the penalties are the same, regardless of whether most think 'good intentions' or not.

I mostly agree. But I can't imagine the charges for hacking Podesta's email should be the same as hacking and/or releasing CIA and national security secrets.

jimnyc

03-09-2017, 01:32 PM

Ok, so the leakers should be prosecuted, let's say they are, and they go to jail. fine.
So now we're ALSO still left with the facts that are leaked that show that the CIA and other agencies have also broken the laws.
Seems to me they should "be prosecuted" as well.
Since breaking the law for a 'good cause' is not a legitimate excuse. right?

Have the appropriate committees investigate and handle appropriately. If that means charges after the investigation, I fully agree with you then. The way to get them isn't by releasing such things to the world though.

revelarts

03-09-2017, 02:00 PM

Have the appropriate committees investigate and handle appropriately. If that means charges after the investigation, I fully agree with you then. The way to get them isn't by releasing such things to the world though.
Ok how does someone begin to investigate?
doesn't someone inside have to tell someone?
And isn't that illegal since "top scret clearance " is needed to even know about some of these things?

But OK let's say an insider sees criminal use of top secret methods and tools,
and they do find and tell the "proper authorities" with proper clearance. But they do nothing.
What's the next step?
Should they just sit by and watch crimes happen?

jimnyc

03-09-2017, 02:16 PM

Ok how does someone begin to investigate?

We have investigations going on in the background about Russian hacking, and now internal crap about Obama and what not. I'm confident the appropriate committees can investigate. And hell, if there's proof of crimes, that makes it even easier.

doesn't someone inside have to tell someone?

I would assume similarly. government vs. government. But no differently than as I pointed out above. Still better than handing out secrets.

And isn't that illegal since "top scret clearance " is needed to even know about some of these things?

That's why we have committees with folks who have clearances.

But OK let's say an insider sees criminal use of top secret methods and tools,
and they do find and tell the "proper authorities" with proper clearance. But they do nothing.
What's the next step?
Should they just sit by and watch crimes happen?

I would continue to hammer the appropriate government agencies and not stop. Maybe even go public with various things to get attention, minus anything confidential. But at NO time would I even think of releasing secrets that can harm my country. I don't have all the answers, I don't work in the government, but I don't think committing crimes is the best way to resolve other crimes.

CSM

03-09-2017, 04:52 PM

Ok how does someone begin to investigate?
doesn't someone inside have to tell someone?
And isn't that illegal since "top scret clearance " is needed to even know about some of these things?

But OK let's say an insider sees criminal use of top secret methods and tools,
and they do find and tell the "proper authorities" with proper clearance. But they do nothing.
What's the next step?
Should they just sit by and watch crimes happen?

You go up the chain until you find the person that WILL do something. You DON'T release national secrets to the public or foreign entities. There are ways within every intelligence agency and military organization to elevate security violations and criminal activity until such activity is investigated and appropriate action taken. Anyone who has held a security clearance has been briefed and trained ad nauseam on the procedures.

Balu

03-09-2017, 05:26 PM

ANYONE who intentionally LEAKS National Security Secrets, classified information, or verbally shares classified information WITH ANYONE who does not have a Security Clearance....should be prosecuted as a SPY, or TRAITOR to the nation, and the American people.

Good words. Only with such an approach, if make it universal, any crime can be approved and justified.

gabosaurus

03-09-2017, 05:45 PM

Speaking of intelligence operations, the FBI is currently investigating a computer server link between a Russian bank and the Trump organization.

Balu

03-09-2017, 05:51 PM

Speaking of intelligence operations, the FBI is currently investigating a computer server link between a Russian bank and the Trump organization.
Don't look silly! CIA are skilled enough to leave false fingerprints when it is necessary. :laugh:

aboutime

03-09-2017, 07:21 PM

Speaking of intelligence operations, the FBI is currently investigating a computer server link between a Russian bank and the Trump organization.

gabby. Thanks again. Do you honestly know how DUMB the FAKE NEWS you repeated here....really makes you look?

TRUTH IS...and you won't like this. Everything related to, and spoken about any Trump relationship to PUTIN, or RUSSIA has been PROVEN to be FALSE, LIES, FABRICATION, and Totally LIBERALLY-DEMOCRAT BULL-SH*T!
But you, and all the other EASILY-LED, UNINFORMED, SHEEP FROM THE LEFT have been trained to believe Almost Everything...since none of you would DARE prove Democrats are liars on your own.

revelarts

03-09-2017, 09:02 PM

We have investigations going on in the background about Russian hacking, and now internal crap about Obama and what not. I'm confident the appropriate committees can investigate. And hell, if there's proof of crimes, that makes it even easier.

I would assume similarly. government vs. government. But no differently than as I pointed out above. Still better than handing out secrets.

That's why we have committees with folks who have clearances.

I would continue to hammer the appropriate government agencies and not stop. Maybe even go public with various things to get attention, minus anything confidential. But at NO time would I even think of releasing secrets that can harm my country. I don't have all the answers, I don't work in the government, but I don't think committing crimes is the best way to resolve other crimes.

You go up the chain until you find the person that WILL do something. You DON'T release national secrets to the public or foreign entities. There are ways within every intelligence agency and military organization to elevate security violations and criminal activity until such activity is investigated and appropriate action taken. Anyone who has held a security clearance has been briefed and trained ad nauseam on the procedures.

there are real life examples of people who have done exactly that.
some have gotten some proper responses but not often without some real cost.

But many have done the same and found NO ONE that does anything. and IN fact found that after they reported the crimes that they lost their clearance, they where moved out of their position , some had their homes raided and their computers confiscated by "authorities". While the perps and groups they reported on stayed in place. Many had to spend their own money to take time and report AFTER they had been removed from their jobs, then more money to defend themselves and try to continue to fight "UP the Chain" to the top. Some Then went to the courts after the top did nothing, but often had there cases sidelined, continued indefinitely, blocked, dismissed on technicalities or even refused to be heard because no judges had classified clearance to the level to hear the case. And in one case the whistle blower and her lawyers were asked to leave the court room as the gov't presented a secret response that had the case thrown out. They've also gone to congress and were told that what they reported was "credible", "significant" and "troubling" . But congressional committees did NOTHING. (BTW what authority does one congressional committee have over the daily activity of the CIA NSA DIA anyway? can they fire or even bring a real indictment or even have another justice agency to arrest?) Some were fired from their jobs as a result of going up the chain. Some lost the cred in their fields making it harder to get new work. Some where literally taken to court over other issues obviously in retaliation.
This is why some people have decided that going up the chain is dangerous and or B.S.. They've SEEN what happens to those that have tried before them.
At the extremes some people have ended up in jail themselves and some people have even suspiciously died.

I guess the question at this point would be is there any point were the corruption INSIDE our intel agencies is worth publicly exposing even at the cost of some small... basically already known to serious enemy players... inside classified information?

revelarts

03-09-2017, 09:07 PM

aboutime

03-09-2017, 09:12 PM

I have to wonder about you guys answers though.
I suspect ... but maybe i'm wrong... but i really have to wonder that if either of you worked in the Justice dept under Eric Holder and saw real corruption. took it up the chain to Holder and others who did nothing. Then took to Nancy Pelosi or Chuck Schumer who head the "proper" committees and they did nothing . Then took it to court and saw the Justice dept ,on technicalities, derail your case. I have to wonder if you'd maintain your stance and not expose somethings that were needed to make your points public and credible.
so your not just dismissed as being, partisan, a "disgruntled employee" or a "conspiracy theorist".

But i guess i have to wonder if you guys would have supported in the Revolution against the British. You guys seem loyal to a fault.
During the Revolution they talked about principles being more important than bad laws and the people having to sometimes overturn BAD gov't. Seems i hear you guys saying that NO MATTER WHAT you let them get away with murder. You NEVER expose ANY classified material. EVER. No matter how horrific the crimes witnessed.

Rev. Okay. You want to play this game? Did Washington's army fighting the British in the 1700's fear A NUKE? Any Planes with Bombs? Any Chemical weapons delivered by ISLAMIC TERRORISTS who didn't mind killing women, and children?

The principles are completely different now. And, making comparison's to our Revolution, Pre-Declaration of Independence is NAIVE, even for you.
By the way. What do you see wrong about as many of us being LOYAL to our nation, our people, and our families?

revelarts

03-09-2017, 09:24 PM

Rev. Okay. You want to play this game? Did Washington's army fighting the British in the 1700's fear A NUKE? Any Planes with Bombs? Any Chemical weapons delivered by ISLAMIC TERRORISTS who didn't mind killing women, and children?

seems every time there's a leak people trot out the idea that "NUKEs will fall!".
but they haven't
Or that many in the field will die.
but they haven't.
In nearly all of the cases where info was release "illegally" not even that has happened.
not with,the pentagon papers, Snowden , wkileaks, Bradley Manning, or with the guy that released info about CIA illegal torture and went to jail for it.
ZERO deaths in the field are linked to those releases. or many others.
Your assertion is just a scare tactic, not based on the facts. most of the people that have released info have been extremely selective and taken care NOT to put U.S. in real jeopardy to the best of their ability and decided that the american people had a right to know some of the criminal activity it's gov't was doing more than some info needed to be considered "classified".

The principles are completely different now. And, making comparison's to our Revolution, Pre-Declaration of Independence is NAIVE, even for you.
By the way. What do you see wrong about as many of us being LOYAL to our nation, our people, and our families?

Nothing wrong with being loyal to our nation.
But being loyal to our nation and our constitution is one thing
and being loyal the gov't and every single arbitrary rule on the books are not the same thing.

revelarts

03-09-2017, 10:05 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tdL8qMhFjk

jimnyc

03-10-2017, 05:36 AM

IS this a situation where someone tried forever to bring law breaking to the attention of others? Or was this hacking? Or someone just working there and releasing the info? I've seen nothing at all yet to believe this was someone in any way that was a whistleblower, someone who tried to go up the chain and report illegal activity. I'll save that argument for when it actually happens.

What we seem to have here is a contractor, or hacking, and then the information going to a 3rd party organization, who then releases it to the world. Bringing in some mythical employees that tried to report this stuff isn't even part of this that I'm aware of?

So, do we have something, anything, that shows or states that this was someone who tried to do the right thing, but was fought all along, and then had no choice but to go public? If not, then there's no need to even entertain the argument. It's more like someone simply leaking secrets that I can see as of yet.

jimnyc

03-10-2017, 05:39 AM

I have to wonder about you guys answers though.
I suspect ... but maybe i'm wrong... but i really have to wonder that if either of you worked in the Justice dept under Eric Holder and saw real corruption. took it up the chain to Holder and others who did nothing. Then took to Nancy Pelosi or Chuck Schumer who head the "proper" committees and they did nothing . Then took it to court and saw the Justice dept ,on technicalities, derail your case. I have to wonder if you'd maintain your stance and not expose somethings that were needed to make your knowledge public and credible.
so your not just dismissed as being, partisan, a "disgruntled employee" or a "conspiracy theorist" etc..

But i guess i have to wonder if you guys would have supported in the Revolution against the British. You guys seem loyal to a fault.
During the Revolution they talked about principles being more important than bad laws and the people having to sometimes overturn BAD gov't. Seems i hear you guys saying that NO MATTER WHAT you let them get away with murder. You NEVER expose ANY classified material. EVER. No matter how horrific the crimes witnessed.

I would have ran up the chain as you point out, then I could or would have released various things to get their attention, and the publics attention for my protection, but in no way would I release "confidential" or state secrets. Their inability to do their jobs wouldn't want to make me harm my country. I'm not saying they get to skate, but there are many other ways other than releasing the info. My first instinct is lawyers and protecting what I have, to ensure the safety of the info and myself. Then work up the chain.

jimnyc

03-10-2017, 06:21 AM

Hopefully Wikileaks will eventually be shut down. And then if patient, hopefully we'll eventually see Snowden behind bars, as well as Assange.

jimnyc

03-10-2017, 06:22 AM

Hopefully Wikileaks will eventually be shut down. And then if patient, hopefully we'll eventually see Snowden behind bars, as well as Assange.

And of course, anyone else they can find out that was involved - whoever leaked the latest CIA stuff, for example.

Balu

03-10-2017, 06:41 AM

I would have ran up the chain as you point out, then I could or would have released various things to get their attention, and the publics attention for my protection, but in no way would I release "confidential" or state secrets. Their inability to do their jobs wouldn't want to make me harm my country. I'm not saying they get to skate, but there are many other ways other than releasing the info. My first instinct is lawyers and protecting what I have, to ensure the safety of the info and myself. Then work up the chain.
I like the way you think, Jim!
But, you omitted one think - the movements of EVERYONE may be tracked, without his knowledge and prior approval of the COURT to monitor any person. This very situation which exists now was described in '1984, Nineteen Eighty-Four' authored by George Orwell.
There is a Soviet joke. The words attributed to Lavrentiy Beria, the chief of the NKVD of the times of Stalin - 'the fact that you are still free is not your merit. This is our fault.'

jimnyc

03-10-2017, 06:42 AM

I honestly don't know for sure - but just peeked around and searched into like 20 or so articles, and find nothing more yet other than "leakers" or "hackers" - and nothing at all about a whistleblower or similar. So I think any debate about going up the chain of command, or the fact that someone went to Wikileaks due to no other choice, is obviously very premature at this point. In fact, I see literally nothing that would say that there was an attempt to go any other route. If they find the person or persons, and they went straight to releasing information - treason it is and death it is, IMO.

jimnyc

03-10-2017, 06:46 AM

Balu

03-10-2017, 07:07 AM

Many many hands in the cookie jar, which is our intelligence, and access to such computers and servers. I find it a little curious that they can't track who accessed what. I worked in large companies, but without the crazy security you would see at the CIA or FBI, and we would easily be able to track logins, and which users accessed which databases and at which time. Likely someone who knows what they're doing and covering tracks as they go along, or someone who knows where the soft spots are. Or someone who used those very tools to hack the back end. And they say the releases thus far are just the beginning. They'll release it all very slowly over time for maximum exposure.
What I would say, the intelligence service, the stealing of the others secrets, obtaining information they want to hide for the defense of your own country is an interesting game to play and worth to dedicate your life to. :slap:

revelarts

03-10-2017, 08:13 AM

I like the way you think, Jim!
But, you omitted one think - the movements of EVERYONE may be tracked, without his knowledge and prior approval of the COURT to monitor any person. This very situation which exists now was described in '1984, Nineteen Eighty-Four' authored by George Orwell.
There is a Soviet joke. The words attributed to Lavrentiy Beria, the chief of the NKVD of the times of Stalin - 'the fact that you are still free is not your merit. This is our fault.'

long one sorry.

I suspect that gov't likes the way Jim thinks as well.
sorry to pick on you Jim but I can't help but see you as "loving big brother".
It seems the state can do little wrong and must be protected and obeyed 1st.

sorry we are just on different planets.
you've often said you are against crimes by the state authorities but it seems to me .. to me.. that the more constitutional freedoms the feds have taken you ... and most americans... have just shrugged and assumed it's for the best. and RIGHT to do.
As Abbey mentioned, she can't get herself worked up about it.
But if the American people sees what the gov't does behind our backs.. Well that's "against the law!"

And Balu you're right, what the new leaks show is that we are in fact living very similar to 1984... and a bit like "Brave New world" and bit like Kafka in it's bureaucratic nonsense.

in 1984 Big Brother was using tvs in the homes to spy on people's actions. the leaks and many others before show they are doing that. Not to mention they listen to and track our phones, listen through the mics on our computers and watch us via the cameras on them. Some public schools have been caught using school laptops to spy on students in their homes and elsewhere, of course tracking all their online activity. But if the gov't does it , Well it must be ok, no need for real concern, nothing to get worked up about, we love big brother. So we shouldn't be concerned that it's a violation of the LAW. And a CLEARLY unconstitutional invasion of privacy by our public "servants" in the state. No worries tut tut. But someone TELLING US about the gov't doing it without permission form our gov't masters, WELL those evil traitors should be KILLED!!! --Run the 2 minutes of hate on Goldstein here-- because telling people might rain death down from the skies and cause chaos in big brothers system causing it to fail.

see I just don't get that POV.

I know that many don't see themselves or their views anywhere close to that light but, that's what it sounds like TO ME.

I hear a collective HO HUM about the gov't spying on americans anytime anywhere in the home, from the phones, on the computers, via the mails, via our bank accounts , via our shopping cards and insurance companies. and No one cares.

but if someone tells us what the gov't is doing in an "unauthorized" way THEN there should be HELL to PAY.
it says the state has all the rights to see it all , and we the people have NONE.
To me that's COMPLETELY BASS AKWARD.

(@Balu "BASS AKWARD" is not a real english term it's a slang expression that's a turn on the words ASS BACKWARDS and the term means
1."The state doing (or having done) something the wrong way."
2."The art and science of hurtling blindly in the wrong direction with no sense of the impending doom about to be inflicted on one's sorry ass. Usually applied to procedures, processes, or theories based on faulty logic, or faulty personnel."

pass that along to the other Russian government web crawlers :poke: )

jimnyc

03-10-2017, 08:29 AM

long one sorry.

I suspect that gov't likes the way Jim thinks as well.
sorry to pick on you Jim but I can't help but see you as "loving big brother".
It seems the state can do little wrong and must be protected and obeyed 1st.

sorry we are just on different planets.
you've often said you are against crimes by the state authorities but it seems to me .. to me.. that the more constitutional freedoms the feds have taken you ... and most americans... have just shrugged and assumed it's for the best. and RIGHT to do.
As Abbey mentioned, she can't get herself worked up about it.
But the people seeing what the gov't does... Well that's "against the law!"

And Balu you're right, what the new leaks show is that we are in fact living very similar to 1984... and a bit like "Brave New world" and bit like Kafka in it's bureaucratic nonsense.

in 1984 Big Brother was using tvs in the homes to spy on people's actions. the leaks and many others before show they are doing that. Not to mention they listen to and track our phones, listen through the mics on our computers and watch us via the cameras on them. Some public schools have been caught using school laptops to spy on students in their homes and elsewhere, of course tracking all their online activity. But if the gov't does it , Well it must be ok, no need for real concern, nothing to get worked up about, we love big brother. So we shouldn't be concerned that it's a violation of the LAW. And a CLEARLY unconstitutional invasion of privacy by our public "servants" in the state. No worries tut tut. But someone TELLING US about the gov't doing it without permission form our gov't masters, WELL those evil traitors should be KILLED!!! --Run the 2 minutes of hate on Goldstein here-- because telling people might rain death down from the skies and cause chaos in big brothers system causing it to fail.

see I just don't get that POV.

I know that many don't see themselves or their views anywhere close to that light but, that's what it sounds like TO ME.

I hear a collective HO HUM about the gov't spying on americans anytime anywhere in the home, from the phones, on the computers, via the mails, via our bank accounts , via our shopping cards and insurance companies. and No one cares.

but if someone tells us what the gov't is doing in an "unauthorized" way THEN there should be HELL to PAY.
it says the state has all the rights to see it all , and we the people have NONE.
To me that's COMPLETELY BASS AKWARD.

A long one, that I don't see that has ANYTHING to do with the topic at hand.

Again, was this a whistleblower?

If you want to rant about the government and our intel agencies in general, that's cool, but I don't see that as having anything to do with someone out there hacking and/or stealing this info from within and then releasing national security secrets to the world.

And then you always rant about how I think they can do no wrong. That's downright retarded. Not wanting state secrets and intel released to the world, preferring a way that doesn't take a chance of placing people or our country in harms way, hardly means that I think they can do no wrong.

As stated initially, I DO have a problem with any illegal activity from within the government - but that I disagree with releasing them to the world as a way of handling things. Don't take offense if I ignore the majority of your ranting.

If you think an illegal act, or treasonous act, of releasing confidential and/or state intelligence secrets, is the best way, and perhaps the initial way, of handling what one thinks is illegal activity within the government or intel agencies - that's fine, I simply disagree and prefer legal avenues.

Kathianne

03-10-2017, 08:35 AM

long one sorry.

I suspect that gov't likes the way Jim thinks as well.
sorry to pick on you Jim but I can't help but see you as "loving big brother".
It seems the state can do little wrong and must be protected and obeyed 1st.

sorry we are just on different planets.
you've often said you are against crimes by the state authorities but it seems to me .. to me.. that the more constitutional freedoms the feds have taken you ... and most americans... have just shrugged and assumed it's for the best. and RIGHT to do.
As Abbey mentioned, she can't get herself worked up about it.
But if the American people sees what the gov't does behind our backs.. Well that's "against the law!"

And Balu you're right, what the new leaks show is that we are in fact living very similar to 1984... and a bit like "Brave New world" and bit like Kafka in it's bureaucratic nonsense.

in 1984 Big Brother was using tvs in the homes to spy on people's actions. the leaks and many others before show they are doing that. Not to mention they listen to and track our phones, listen through the mics on our computers and watch us via the cameras on them. Some public schools have been caught using school laptops to spy on students in their homes and elsewhere, of course tracking all their online activity. But if the gov't does it , Well it must be ok, no need for real concern, nothing to get worked up about, we love big brother. So we shouldn't be concerned that it's a violation of the LAW. And a CLEARLY unconstitutional invasion of privacy by our public "servants" in the state. No worries tut tut. But someone TELLING US about the gov't doing it without permission form our gov't masters, WELL those evil traitors should be KILLED!!! --Run the 2 minutes of hate on Goldstein here-- because telling people might rain death down from the skies and cause chaos in big brothers system causing it to fail.

see I just don't get that POV.

I know that many don't see themselves or their views anywhere close to that light but, that's what it sounds like TO ME.

I hear a collective HO HUM about the gov't spying on americans anytime anywhere in the home, from the phones, on the computers, via the mails, via our bank accounts , via our shopping cards and insurance companies. and No one cares.

but if someone tells us what the gov't is doing in an "unauthorized" way THEN there should be HELL to PAY.
it says the state has all the rights to see it all , and we the people have NONE.
To me that's COMPLETELY BASS AKWARD.

(@Balu "BASS AKWARD" is not a real english term it's a slang expression that's a turn on the words ASS BACKWARDS and the term means
1."The state doing (or having done) something the wrong way."
2."The art and science of hurtling blindly in the wrong direction with no sense of the impending doom about to be inflicted on one's sorry ass. Usually applied to procedures, processes, or theories based on faulty logic, or faulty personnel."

pass that along to the other Russian government web crawlers :poke:
)

I can honestly say that I've always believed that many politicians, especially those wishing to run for the presidency are not to be trusted. In general, since 'my political beginnings' which were earlier than most, I've pretty much have ignored the people and focused on their answers. Only one has truly 'inspired me' from the beginning and he disappointed in many ways in the last part of his last term.

I have always believed in the system and 'the people'. I have come to the point though or perhaps 'it' has come to the point where I've pretty much lost faith in those too. When 'the people' have seemingly become too divided, so distrustful of 'the others' that they demonize and assume the worst, the system may well be broken beyond repair.

Balu

03-10-2017, 08:36 AM

long one sorry.

I suspect that gov't likes the way Jim thinks as well.
sorry to pick on you Jim but I can't help but see you as "loving big brother".
It seems the state can do little wrong and must be protected and obeyed 1st.

sorry we are just on different planets.
you've often said you are against crimes by the state authorities but it seems to me .. to me.. that the more constitutional freedoms the feds have taken you ... and most americans... have just shrugged and assumed it's for the best. and RIGHT to do.
As Abbey mentioned, she can't get herself worked up about it.
But the people seeing what the gov't does... Well that's "against the law!"

And Balu you're right, what the new leaks show is that we are in fact living very similar to 1984... and a bit like "Brave New world" and bit like Kafka in it's bureaucratic nonsense.

in 1984 Big Brother was using tvs in the homes to spy on people's actions. the leaks and many others before show they are doing that. Not to mention they listen to and track our phones, listen through the mics on our computers and watch us via the cameras on them. Some public schools have been caught using school laptops to spy on students in their homes and elsewhere, of course tracking all their online activity. But if the gov't does it , Well it must be ok, no need for real concern, nothing to get worked up about, we love big brother. So we shouldn't be concerned that it's a violation of the LAW. And a CLEARLY unconstitutional invasion of privacy by our public "servants" in the state. No worries tut tut. But someone TELLING US about the gov't doing it without permission form our gov't masters, WELL those evil traitors should be KILLED!!! --Run the 2 minutes of hate on Goldstein here-- because telling people might rain death down from the skies and cause chaos in big brothers system causing it to fail.

see I just don't get that POV.

I know that many don't see themselves or their views anywhere close to that light but, that's what it sounds like TO ME.

I hear a collective HO HUM about the gov't spying on americans anytime anywhere in the home, from the phones, on the computers, via the mails, via our bank accounts , via our shopping cards and insurance companies. and No one cares.

but if someone tells us what the gov't is doing in an "unauthorized" way THEN there should be HELL to PAY.
it says the state has all the rights to see it all , and we the people have NONE.
To me that's COMPLETELY BASS AKWARD.

(@Balu "BASS AKWARD" is not a real english term it's a slang expression that's a turn on the words ASS BACKWARDS and the term means
1."The state doing (or having done) something the wrong way."
2."The art and science of hurtling blindly in the wrong direction with no sense of the impending doom about to be inflicted on one's sorry ass. Usually applied to procedures, processes, or theories based on faulty logic, or faulty personnel."

pass that along to the other Russian government web crawlers :poke:
)

Everything is not so simple and one dimensional. Everything depends on certain conditions and situation where you start choosing the priorities - Safety of a State or Rights of an individual. In this case the State always wins. Otherwise it stops existing.
What would you say about 'Patriotic act' (Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001)?

revelarts

03-10-2017, 08:45 AM

A long one, that I don't see that has ANYTHING to do with the topic at hand.

Again, was this a whistleblower?
doesn't mater. the point in that post is
It's ok, or of no real concern, that the gov't is looking into americans every orifice 24/7 without any legal permission and against the laws.
But's it's always horrible crime to get any "unauthorized" peak under the hat of the gov't..

but to your other point
For YEARS if posted whistle blowers stories typically to no response.
Or with response like complaints that no matter what they did they didn't to it right and should be punished or HO HUM the gov't knows best, people should trust big brother if not we'll all die.

that's the problem i'm speaking to at this pointBut just one example
Sybil Edmonds is one whistle blower i've mentioned on many occasions. She went to EVERY level to report the crimes she saw.
Up the chain at the FBI, nothing, then to congress intel committees and the 911 commission, nothing, to courts, case closed and she was legally gaged and NOTHING was done.

I'm not speaking hypothetically to either points here Jim.
And I'm all for the proper chain of command when it works. but when it consistently doesn't then "the people" must take matters into their own hands.

Balu

03-10-2017, 08:52 AM

jimnyc

03-10-2017, 08:58 AM

doesn't mater. the point in that post is
It's ok, or of no real concern, that the gov't is looking into americans every orifice 24/7 without any legal permission and against the laws.
But's it's always horrible crime to get any "unauthorized" peak under the hat of the gov't..

Can you point out where I stated it was of no concern? This is how the exaggeration and words in mouths start...

but to your other point
For YEARS if posted whistle blowers stories typically to no response.
Or with response like complaints that no matter what they did they didn't to it right and should be punished or HO HUM the gov't knows best, people should trust big brother if not we'll all die.

Did whomever leaked these CIA intelligence do ANY whistleblowing at all? And if not, then we believe laws should be changed and folks should be allowed to release anything and everything they find, based on issues in the past. I disagree.

that's the problem i'm speaking to at this pointBut just one example
Sybil Edmonds is one whistle blower i've mentioned on many occasions. She went to EVERY level to report the crimes she saw.
Up the chain at the FBI, nothing, then to congress intel committees and the 911 commission, nothing, to courts, case closed and she was legally gaged and NOTHING was done.

I'm not speaking hypothetically to either points here Jim.

Has NOTHING to do with this.

Again, why can't folks protect the information, hire lawyers to protect themselves, and then go forward? Go up the chain with protection, but one can still negotiate. There are LOTS of options. And past experiences don't speak for what may currently happen. I believe taking a reasonable approach with sensitive information is the best way to go until all avenues have been exhausted. There are so many ways to go without being a traitor to ones country and taking a chance that someone may be harmed. Personally, if it were that important to me, I would have many copies, have a lawyer, and be the squeaky wheel with every person I can possibly get into contact with. And even then, I would rather go to my death bed before turning on my country.

No doubt folks do illegal things in our government, and no doubt they should be held accountable if doing unauthorized and illegal things. But there are better ways to handle these things. That's like saying it's ok if someone shoots a cop, if by chance he gets found not guilty in a case where he's on film shooting someone. You may feel the crime is absolutely horrendous. You may feel the world needs to know about it. You may feel these people are getting away with things. But you don't get to commit crimes to make things right. Well, you CAN, but then expect to be met with the full extent of the law in return, and hopefully then some.

revelarts

03-10-2017, 09:00 AM

Everything is not so simple and one dimensional. Everything depends on certain conditions and situation where you start choosing the priorities - Safety of a State or Rights of an individual. In this case the State always wins. Otherwise it stops existing.

Only a BAD State stops exiting if it doesn't always win Balu.
In a good state the rights of the people are paramount.
And the state is the servant.

What would you say about 'Patriotic act' (Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001)?
don't get me started.

Balu

03-10-2017, 09:06 AM

Only a BAD State stops exiting if it doesn't always win Balu.
In a good state the rights of the people are paramount.
And the state is the servant.

Maybe you didn't pay attention to my words or misunderstood their meaning

Everything is not so simple and one dimensional. Everything depends on certain conditions and situation
But THERE ARE cases and situations when the rights of individuals ARE restricted.

revelarts

03-10-2017, 09:06 AM

Can you point out where I stated it was of no concern? This is how the exaggeration and words in mouths start...

Jim i've been VERY careful to state SEVERAL times that "TO ME" that's how you and many other come across.
And i've already Acknowelege that you and other DO NOT see your words the way they come across TO ME.

please don't assume I'm trying to say more than that. or try to start start a beef where none is.

I have my view of where your words LEAD.
no you have not said them exactly but from MY POV that's where they practically end up.

we cool?

please remember this as we go along.

revelarts

03-10-2017, 09:15 AM

Maybe you didn't pay attention to my words or misunderstood their meaning

Everything is not so simple and one dimensional. Everything depends on certain conditions and situation

I think i did understand you Balu.
But i'll say it this way, In every conditions and situation the rights of the people are paramount.

the supposed "conditions and situations" for Unathorized spying without warrants, for jail without due process, for torture etc etc are ALL illegitimate excuses for the State to do things that are NOT necessary to help the peace.

The cry of the State is always some DIRE necessity compels them to do something outside of the constitutionally authorized boundaries.
Sorry 99.999% of the time its BS.

jimnyc

03-10-2017, 09:15 AM

Jim i've been VERY careful to state SEVERAL times that "TO ME" that's how you and many other come across.
And i've already Acknowelege that you and other DO NOT see your words the way they come across TO ME.

please don't assume I'm trying to say more than that. or try to start start a beef where none is.

I have my view of where your words LEAD.
no you have not said them exactly but from MY POV that's where they practically end up.

we cool?

please remember this as we go along.

OF COURSE we're cool.

I'm just making it clear though - I'm against those that break the law. I said they should be outed and/or convicted or whatever of found and caught. I have no love for them at all, I don't assume the government is always right or any of that stuff. I think you often go that route in your head with me - because I often state that things should be done in a lawful manner.

I think any reporting should be done in the legal/lawful manner. Then the same with any investigations, whether from intel agencies or government committees. Then the same if it were to be in any courtroom. And of course I believe this applies to how our agencies and committees operate as well.

I'll be honest, I don't mind as much if it's overseas with how we get intelligence with foreign entities, but I guess that's an entirely different discussion.

revelarts

03-10-2017, 09:29 AM

I can honestly say that I've always believed that many politicians, especially those wishing to run for the presidency are not to be trusted. In general, since 'my political beginnings' which were earlier than most, I've pretty much have ignored the people and focused on their answers. Only one has truly 'inspired me' from the beginning and he disappointed in many ways in the last part of his last term.

I have always believed in the system and 'the people'. I have come to the point though or perhaps 'it' has come to the point where I've pretty much lost faith in those too. When 'the people' have seemingly become too divided, so distrustful of 'the others' that they demonize and assume the worst, the system may well be broken beyond repair.

I think the founders had it right in that the people should ALWAYS be suspicious of the gov't. And that the gov't should be small and limited in power.
it think the problem now is that the people don't really believe in or understand the concept of small and limited gov't and instead really LIKE a BIG gov't that spans the globe and claims it's 'good' and can do it all and is big enough to tell others inside and outside the nation what to do..... As long as their team gets to do the telling.

That's what's really broken IMO.

Along with the disappearance of the collective Biblical moral base and world view that had put most americans generally on the same page.
that's more foundationally the biggest problem it seems to me.
(besides the gov't really being basically an oligarchy disguised as a democratic republic of course)

jimnyc

03-10-2017, 09:32 AM

I think the founders had it right in that the people should ALWAYS be suspicious of the gov't. And that the gov't should be small and limited in power.
it think the problem now is that the people don't really believe in or understand the concept of small and limited gov't and in stead really LIKE a BIG gov't that spans the globe and claims it can do it all and is big enough to tell others inside and outside the nation what to do..... As long as their team gets to do the telling.

I love Trump, and mostly love those he has surrounded himself with. I am mostly happy with the republicans in the house and senate.

And yet I would be happier than anyone if each and everyone of them were dropped today, and we started over with an extremely limited government. Better term limits. Little salaries, find folks that WANT to make things better for their states, towns and constituents.

revelarts

03-10-2017, 09:36 AM

An example. Do you really think that counterintelligence service will apply to a court to authorize their every step? http://s19.rimg.info/aee19e2775457d135efdf745e7d94e15.gif (http://smayliki.ru/smilie-1224821991.html)

Nope I don't think they will. But when they do they have BROKEN THE LAW and should be tried for it.

Rather than those who EXPOSED that they broke the law.
:beer:
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Balu

03-10-2017, 09:39 AM

I think the founders had it right in that the people should ALWAYS be suspicious of the gov't. And that the gov't should be small and limited in power.

Would you kindly clarify your point of view!
There are certain fields where only the government has a power to fulfill it's exclusive missions. And to fulfill them the government must be powerful. Moreover, the more tensions the situation is the more powerful the government must be.
Aren't there contradictions in your statement?

jimnyc

03-10-2017, 09:44 AM

Nope I don't think they will. But when they do they have BROKEN THE LAW and should be tried for it.

Rather than those who EXPOSED that they broke the law.
:beer:
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This is what I was referring to when I spoke of foreign intel. If they need to act quickly, I think they should be able to go outside our American laws, and that those they are spying on or whatever, certainly aren't afforded our protections.

Balu

03-10-2017, 09:54 AM

Nope I don't think they will. But when they do they have BROKEN THE LAW and should be tried for it.

Rather than those who EXPOSED that they broke the law.
:beer:
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Fine! :beer:
But IF internal rules and regulations of a certain body of special service contradict to the Laws for ordinary people because of the Nature of the the tasks to be fulfilled they were created for, would it be in your opinion violation of the Law? http://s19.rimg.info/aee19e2775457d135efdf745e7d94e15.gif (http://smayliki.ru/smilie-1224821991.html)

Kathianne

03-10-2017, 10:03 AM

Nope I don't think they will. But when they do they have BROKEN THE LAW and should be tried for it.

Rather than those who EXPOSED that they broke the law.
:beer:
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I think both should be investigated and prosecuted when possible.

revelarts

03-10-2017, 10:15 AM

Would you kindly clarify your point of view!
There are certain fields where only the government has a power to fulfill it's exclusive missions. And to fulfill them the government must be powerful. Moreover, the more tensions the situation is the more powerful the government must be.
Aren't there contradictions in your statement?

I'd rather you give me examples of what gov't missions only a Powerful unfettered gov't can perform that you're talking about.

But from my POV , my fantasy version of America has a civil defense more like Israel and Switzerland. Where all citizens are armed and trained for the defense of the nation. No "standing army" based and deployed all over the world. A small navy with nuke subs, and carriers patrolling our coast and protecting our shipping. Diplomacy Trade and travel with all nations. Corporations limited by states and city ordinances.
And the federal gov't completely bound by the constitution. As a broad outline.

Espionage in that context still works but it's against other nations only in the political and military areas.

I know very well that in the "real world" gov'ts are more like gangs and maneuver in politics with dirty tricks and actions that make drug cartels looks kind. And that many in our gov't would not be able to conceive of moving in a way that really reflected the rhetoric we spout about truth justice and the American way.
And far to many americans inside and outside the gov't believe we MUST "get our hands dirty" to live in the "real world".
But personally i don't by it. I think we can live up to our ideals and follow rules that are above board and thrive while doing it.
Due Process of law and individual right don't exclude harsh and effective laws and actions when needed.
If so then i say lets stop pretending that we really believe the constitution means much of anything. and just admit that our gov't really is just a bunch of thugs that will have its way, how it wants, when it wants, and by any means necessary. the restrictions are just window dressing.

revelarts

03-10-2017, 10:27 AM

I think both should be investigated and prosecuted when possible.

I'd Agree in most cases however.
I see te Exposer more like a person that took the car keys to a police car and handcuffs a police officer to a light post who they see filming through a window an innocent neighborhood preteen girl taking a bath at home.

Is it a crime to take the car keys of police car . Yes,
To handcuff a police officer to a light post, probably.
Should they go to court for it, Okay maybe.
But i'd hope any judge or jury would NOT prosecute them for the "crime" of protecting an innocent child from someone using the cover of gov't to commit crimes.

Kathianne

03-10-2017, 10:34 AM

I'd Agree in most cases however.
I see te Exposer more like a person that took the car keys to a police car and handcuffs a police officer to a light post who they see filming through a window an innocent neighborhood preteen girl taking a bath at home.

Is it a crime to take the car keys of police car . Yes,
To handcuff a police officer to a light post, probably.
Should they go to court for it, Okay maybe.
But i'd hope any judge or jury would NOT prosecute them for the "crime" of protecting an innocent child from someone using the cover of gov't to commit crimes.

Prosecuting them would find whether or not they were as altruistic as you evidently believe. They took an oath and it was incumbent on them to try every avenue to report their concerns before acting as a separate entity-which still doesn't remove the fact they took an oath. Indeed, even assuming all good motives, one does wonder about their ability to truly assess the greatest threat.

In a real way, your argument is in favor of Bergdahl, putting the lowest member in charge of what is 'really important.'

revelarts

03-10-2017, 10:48 AM

Fine! :beer:
But IF internal rules and regulations of a certain body of special service contradict to the Laws for ordinary people because of the Nature of the the tasks to be fulfilled they were created for, would it be in your opinion violation of the Law? http://s19.rimg.info/aee19e2775457d135efdf745e7d94e15.gif (http://smayliki.ru/smilie-1224821991.html)

Espionage is dirty work no doubt. but even there , there are supposed to be some rules.

just like in war their are certain things that are outside the bounds.
for the most part we don't use mustard gas or chemical weapons. Technically torture is still illegal. and some people HAVE gone to jail for it.

my point is the gov't does NOT have Blank Check to do ANYTHING.they are in fact limited.

Spies and law enforcement DO Not have the legal right to spy on anyone they have a GUT feeling about or U.S. citizens willy nilly . they are SUPPOSEd to get some evidence and present it to court BEFORE they do any invasive spying.

But they can follow the person around for day and weeks in public. They can watch them from the street. But they can't LEGALLY, go into their homes, tap their phones, or electronically track all their movements, look at their bank accounts etc etc WITHOUT court authorization.
They can walk up to the person and LIE about who they are and try to trick them into telling them info but they can't KIDNAPPED them.

There are supposedly legal limits to what can be done in the name of safety and security. and those that are supposed to keep a check on the activity of those authorized to lie, cheat, eavesdrop, steal and kill on behalf of the gov't.

Your statement reminds me of a report from this one town where the police went "undercover" to sting this prostitution ring. And the police were having sex with several prostitutes willy nilly... To get the job done of course.... Well that didn't fly in front of the judge.

sorry, but you don't HAVE TO have sex with the prostitutes to make a case right?http://s19.rimg.info/aee19e2775457d135efdf745e7d94e15.gif (http://smayliki.ru/smilie-1224821991.html)
SaveSave

revelarts

03-10-2017, 11:05 AM

Prosecuting them would find whether or not they were as altruistic as you evidently believe. They took an oath and it was incumbent on them to try every avenue to report their concerns before acting as a separate entity-which still doesn't remove the fact they took an oath. Indeed, even assuming all good motives, one does wonder about their ability to truly assess the greatest threat.

In a real way, your argument is in favor of Bergdahl, putting the lowest member in charge of what is 'really important.'

I'm putting the constitution (and clear morals) in charge of what's most important.
And any member, high or low, that obeys that has the legal high ground.

On the military bases they often post pictorial "chain of command" charts. I've seen a few and they always are topped by an image of the current president. i've often thought that they should have 2 more images above the president. 1st a picture of the constitution and then above that a mosaic image of the American people.

And pursuing every avenue is commendable but i don't see it as the only way or more sacred than the moral duty to expose some criminal activity. Especially if can reasonable be determined that the proper channels are hostile or ineffective. And if can be reasonably determined that the breach of the "oath" in this case will NOT do damage to the safety and security of the U.S.. and those in it's service.

Kathianne

03-10-2017, 11:11 AM

I'm putting the constitution (and clear morals) in charge of what's most important.
And any member, high or low, that obeys that has the legal high ground.

On the military bases they often post pictorial "chain of command" charts. I've seen a few and they always are topped by an image of the current president. i've often thought that they should have 2 more images above the president. 1st a picture of the constitution and then above that a mosaic image of the American people.

I'm not getting that. I think I understand where you think you are on Constitutional ground, but unlike most of your posts on topic, not seeing where you are getting from there to here. Privacy? Perhaps, though that is for the judicial process to ascertain, not taking 'leaks' or even accusations alone as fact.

Yes, the CIA working in the US certainly is against the law, but it's still not proven, though from all the info out there, does seem likely. That should be investigated and dealt with appropriately-which means once again reining them in if so.

It still doesn't address the magnitude of the allegations leaked. Much broader than just the CIA in the US, but an across the board deluge of our intelligence services and possible abilities. The release of all these possible abilities should be investigated and also prosecuted.

revelarts

03-10-2017, 11:33 AM

I'm not getting that. I think I understand where you think you are on Constitutional ground, but unlike most of your posts on topic, not seeing where you are getting from there to here. Privacy? Perhaps, though that is for the judicial process to ascertain, not taking 'leaks' or even accusations alone as fact.

Yes, the CIA working in the US certainly is against the law, but it's still not proven, though from all the info out there, does seem likely. That should be investigated and dealt with appropriately-which means once again reining them in if so.

It still doesn't address the magnitude of the allegations leaked. Much broader than just the CIA in the US, but an across the board deluge of our intelligence services and possible abilities. The release of all these possible abilities should be investigated and also prosecuted.

I was speaking more to general the point.
But In this spefic case
there's a lot of information that's UNKNOWN.

and investigations should go forward. but at this point my Main concern has been the one that's been an issue Since the Bush Admin began to use the intel agencies to cross the constitutional lines.
it's continued unabated since then and these leaks just RE-expose a problem that has gone unaddressed, ignored and worsened under Obama.

finding and prosecuting the individual hackers or leakers is something that the gov't has little problem doing. there are MANY in prison, without jobs, dead, or in exile etc. already. while much of th what they exposed and those who they exposed go on unpunished and unaddressed to this day.

plus again these leaks seems to put NO ONE in harms way. Don't seem to be for any PERSONAL GAIN, or for any specific enemy state. (on the contrary seem to be attempts to alert the american people ) And doesn't expose any LEGIT activity that any knowledgeable enemy wasn't already aware of.

so yes I'm Far more concerned about the CIA/Intel agencies being held accountable and investigated toughly and publicly exposed here for the 1st time by someone ANYone than i am about ANOTHER fevered hunt for some horrid "traitor" .

the intel agencies have .. potentially... been criminally operating for 15 years + now. The magnitude of those potential crimes is Far worse in my estimation than the hand full of current unknown hacker/leakers that the SAME compromised intel agencies are now in hot pursuit of.

revelarts

03-12-2017, 02:30 PM

One of the best summaries of the content and the problems with this CIA activity

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5zQ1UTnE4g

Elessar

03-12-2017, 06:47 PM

aboutime

03-12-2017, 07:00 PM

revelarts

03-12-2017, 07:39 PM

Too many people are under the Hollywood 'James Bond' misconception that the CIA
can swoop down in black helicopters, wearing trench coats and dark glasses. They have
very little LE authority in the USA. Their job is intelligence gathering outside of our borders.

What they may uncover will go to the FBI or NSA, DEA, ICE, CBP, USCG, HLS.
passing on info they never should have seen in the 1st place is problem #1.
To other agencies that didn't have warrants to access it anymore than they did is Problem #2

So I'm not sure how many people are concerned about Sun glasses and trench coats or any other unlikely LEGIT LE authority.
My concerns are more about what they do illegitimately "for the good of the country" and for their own purposes... personal and criminal.

technically the CIA shouldn't be seeing any domestic info, not associated with foreigners. Much less have carte blanche access to U.S. citizens phones, TV cameras & mics Computer cameras & mics.

It's wrong on it's face even from their missions POV.
and then of course the thing that few seem to care about,
it's UNCONSTITUTIONAL to spy on U.S. citizens without a warrant.

I'll never leave that point.
It is a CRIME.
when intel agencies/agents commit crimes the appropriate penalties should apply. Illegal programs Scraped and leadership and agents fired... maybe jailed.
If you or i were to spy on our neighbors phone conversations, and had assess to their computers cameras we'd end up under serious investigation and in court at the least. because we aren't authorized to do so.
the CIA is in THE SAME position as any other citizen here. they are NOT authorized by the constitution OR their operational parameters to spy on U.S. citizens.
period paragraph end of story.

L. E.s seem to like the idea that ALL L.E.s should get the benny of the doubt because of ANY badge or office.
Sorry that's not my understanding of how the constitution works, a badge or an office doesn't grant ALL rights to do whatever they want.

I know "in the real world" L.E.s may pass along illegally retrieved info "all the time". If thats the case then they are breaking the law " all the time"

aboutime

03-12-2017, 08:24 PM

Rev. Obama did like Clinton did before leaving the W/H.

Major case of CYA to disrupt Trump. But nobody wants to talk about that.

Why Didn't Obama Reveal Intel About Russia's Influence on the ...
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/...didnt-obama...intel.../510242/
Dec 11, 2016 - Why Didn't Obama Reveal Intel About Russia's Influence on the Election? ... Members of Congress who called on the White House to release more ... a stark contrast to the Comey's announcement just weeks before the election that it .... That spring day, the 501 citizen-jurors did not do the institution proud.

Elessar

03-12-2017, 08:34 PM

Balu

03-12-2017, 08:54 PM

Elessar

03-12-2017, 10:52 PM

For an ordinary American you have an extraordinary knowledge (sorry for my tautology) on this subject, Elessar. Even for an ordinary Coastal Guard officer. It seems that you are too close to these services. http://s19.rimg.info/aee19e2775457d135efdf745e7d94e15.gif (http://smayliki.ru/smilie-1224821991.html)

I am well versed in them and will not say anything further.

I am hardly an ordinary American by the way. 37 years in the USCG, 26 of them dealing with classified information,
systems and means. Knowing what agencies have what levels of responsibility.

Balu

03-12-2017, 11:04 PM

I am well versed in them and will not say anything further.

I am hardly an ordinary American by the way. 37 years in the USCG, 26 of them dealing with classified information,
systems and means. Knowing what agencies have what levels of responsibility.
Thank you for your exhaustive answer to a question I've never asked. But you affirmed my assumptions. :slap:

revelarts

03-13-2017, 07:58 AM

What you do not understand Rev is that the agencies obtain Federal Warrants. That
IS legal under the Constitution and U.S. Code of Federal Regulations.

What is NOT legal is CIA inhabiting citizens domiciles, media, internet, etc., unless
there is an International connection with them.

Elessar I mentioned that getting warrants is the way to legally spy, tap phones etc..
but there's no such thing as "legal" blanket warrants, if i'm wrong please site the law. constitutionally speaking it's my understanding warrants are issued on specific persons with the items/info looked for being designated in the warrants after probable cause or similar is given.

It's been admitted by many L.E. that they Do in fact pass on info to other agencies that DO NOT have warrants and the agencies then go in and investigate and FIND other info to try and prosecute real criminals. Why? because the passed on info was not discovered under a proper warrant so it's never presented in court..
some have even admitted that thy've' lied and said they got the info in a different fashion.
In those cases they say the ends justifies the means. we got a "bad guy".
i'm all for getting the "bad guys" but seems to me that the cops should be able to follow the constitution to do it. OR get congress to change the constitution if it Really is such a hinderance to GOOD police work.

maybe I'm wrong here but i'd like to think that L.E.s CAN do a great job and still stay within the bounds of the constitution.

If not then Just SAY that the constitution is WRONG to promote the restrictions and change the constitution.
L.E.s shouldn't break the law behind our backs and act like we're wrong for calling them crooks and corrupt and unconstitutional when they do it.

and again that's assuming they are doing it for a "good" reason.

And assuming they are not just copying everything we all do as a matter of course and storing it, as the NSA is unconstitutionally doing. That blanket recording is without ANY cause, much less warrants.