We should follow Italy's lead

[jimnyc]

In Italy, Islam doesn’t officially exist. Here’s what Muslims must accept to change that.

MILAN — At least 1.4 million Muslims are living in Italy, making Islam the country’s de facto second-largest religion. But as far as Italian authorities are concerned, Islam doesn’t exist.

Unlike Christianity and Judaism, Islam isn’t formally recognized in Italy. This means that mosques cannot receive public funds, Islamic weddings have no legal value and Muslim workers aren’t entitled to take days off for religious holidays.

Now that lack of recognition may change — but not without a cost.

This month, Italy’s Interior Ministry and the country’s nine major Islamic associations signed an unprecedented agreement. Muslim organizations agreed to create a registry of their imams and to require them to preach in Italian. In return, the government vowed to “facilitate the path” toward the official recognition of Islam in Italy.

The “National Pact for an Italian Islam” has been hailed as a first step toward the normalization of Islam in Italy. But it has also been criticized for creating a double standard: no other religious group has been asked by authorities to hold sermons in Italian. The Roman Catholic Church regularly offers masses in foreign languages to cater to an international audience.

“It’s a document that Muslims had to sign in order to prove we’re good citizens and not bad people,” said Yahya Pallavicini, a Milan-based Muslim scholar, in an interview with the conservative magazine Tempi.

Islam doesn’t enjoy much popularity in Italy. According to a recent Pew survey, 69 percent of Italians report a negative opinion of Muslims, the highest proportion among the European countries polled. Local media also often conflates Islam as a whole with terrorism.

Looking ahead to elections next year, the government is also treating the agreement as a security issue. In a statement to the news media, Interior Minister Marco Minniti presented the document as a safeguard “against any form of violence and terrorism.”

Rest here - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/08/in-italy-islam-doesnt-officially-exist-heres-what-muslims-must-accept-to-change-that/?utm_term=.4eec5f15e13b

[Black Diamond]

Odds Mussolini brought up in this thread....

[pete311]

So much for land of the free.

[jimnyc]

So much for land of the free.

They are free to assimilate and speak English if coming here. They are free to practice their religion. Due to Islam being radicalized the world over, and generally times because of their local mosque, I have no issue with keeping a list of names. Hell, they can keep a list of priests, deacons, and everything else as well. Then they are free to be free here.

I disagree with the language IN their house of worship, let them speak whatever there.

[pete311]

They are free to assimilate and speak English if coming here.

Or free not to. Ya know. That is the definition of the word free.

[jimnyc]

Or free not to. Ya know. That is the definition of the word free.

Then they are FREE to stay right where they're at. I just figured when entering someone else's country, you try and fit in with them more, not them trying to fit in with you. You know, the way it is in EVERY country out there.

[Black Diamond]

They are free to assimilate and speak English if coming here. They are free to practice their religion. Due to Islam being radicalized the world over, and generally times because of their local mosque, I have no issue with keeping a list of names. Hell, they can keep a list of priests, deacons, and everything else as well. Then they are free to be free here.

I disagree with the language IN their house of worship, let them speak whatever there.
Try moving to Paris and not speaking perfect French.

[jimnyc]

Try moving to Paris and not speaking perfect French.

Sneak into Mexico. Demand a drivers license and various means of welfare support. Speak ONLY English. Mouth off to everyone if they ever speak of security and/or a wall to defend their country from illegals. You tell them, it's YOUR way or the highway!!

[Abbey Marie]

Sneak into Mexico. Demand a drivers license and various means of welfare support. Speak ONLY English. Mouth off to everyone if they ever speak of security and/or a wall to defend their country from illegals. You tell them, it's YOUR way or the highway!!

But don't try getting into their southern border.

[NightTrain]

Sneak into Mexico. Demand a drivers license and various means of welfare support. Speak ONLY English. Mouth off to everyone if they ever speak of security and/or a wall to defend their country from illegals. You tell them, it's YOUR way or the highway!!

Tell the local Mexicans that Cinco de Mayo and Independence Day offends you and they need to stop.

And that Mexican flag is mighty offensive... only way sensibly to deal with that is to go downtown and burn it publicly. That'll win them over.

[NightTrain]

"Local media also often conflates Islam as a whole with terrorism."

Sounds like the journalists over in Italy have their shit together. They actually might have a chance.

[jimnyc]

But don't try getting into their southern border.

I wonder why world leaders and others aren't complaining about that wall? Or their own citizens, since apparently many have an issue with the USA building a wall. Good for everyone but us? Call them what you want, but they are WALLS, separating people, like where Noir is at and they build walls to separate religions.

Africa
Botswana
Egypt
Morocco
South Africa
Americas
United States
Asia
Afghanistan
Brunei
China (Hong Kong and Macau Special Administrative Regions)
China (Mainland)
India
Iran
Israel
Korea
Kuwait
Pakistan
Russia
Saudi Arabia
Thailand
Turkey
United Arab Emirates
Uzbekistan
Europe
Austria
Bulgaria
Estonia
France
Greece
Hungary
Latvia
Macedonia
Northern Ireland
Norway
Slovenia
Spain
Ukraine

[Black Diamond]

Try getting into Canada if you have had a DUI. Ain't happening.

[jimnyc]

Try getting into Canada if you have had a DUI. Ain't happening.

I wonder why they want to discriminate against what could be misdemeanors? Don't they drink up there?

[fj1200]

In Italy, Islam doesn’t officially exist. Here’s what Muslims must accept to change that.

...
“It’s a document that Muslims had to sign in order to prove we’re good citizens and not bad people,” said Yahya Pallavicini, a Milan-based Muslim scholar, in an interview with the conservative magazine Tempi.
...

Do all citizens of Italy need to register their religion preferences?


Odds Mussolini brought up in this thread....

Hmm, a formerly fascist country that has taken actions against a religious minority in the past and are now requiring another religious minority to register with the government. Nah, no Mussolini reference required.

[Black Diamond]

Do all citizens of Italy need to register their religion preferences?



Hmm, a formerly fascist country that has taken actions against a religious minority in the past and are now requiring another religious minority to register with the government. Nah, no Mussolini reference required.
Close enough.

[fj1200]

Close enough.

You did raise his name. :slap:

[jimnyc]

Do all citizens of Italy need to register their religion preferences?

No.

[fj1200]

No.

Only some then. Gotcha.

[jimnyc]

Only some then. Gotcha.

Apparently they are a little more stern in how they handle Islam. That's an EXCELLENT choice and in the best interest of the country. Muslims are 100% free to still practice their religion if they choose. Only some is exactly how it should be. Assimilate and fit in, or refuse to assimilate and sit on the outside looking in.

[Black Diamond]

You did raise his name. :slap:
I am disappointed, though. You didn't equate il duce with trump.

[fj1200]

Apparently they are a little more stern in how they handle Islam. That's an EXCELLENT choice and in the best interest of the country. Muslims are 100% free to still practice their religion if they choose. Only some is exactly how it should be. Assimilate and fit in, or refuse to assimilate and sit on the outside looking in.

I'd rather have freedom of religion.


I am disappointed, though. You didn't equate il duce with trump.

Why would I do that? This thread is about Italy and going off topic is scary.

[Black Diamond]

I'd rather have freedom of religion.



Why would I do that? This thread is about Italy and going off topic is scary.
The longer a thread goes, the closer the probability of equating Mussolini or hitler to trump approaches 1. And it's not a linear function.

[Abbey Marie]

I'd rather have freedom of religion.



Why would I do that? This thread is about Italy and going off topic is scary.

Scary? No. Annoyingly unproductive? Yes.

[fj1200]

The longer a thread goes, the closer the probability of equating Mussolini or hitler to trump approaches 1. And it's not a linear function.

Exponentially given post #2. :poke:

[fj1200]

Scary? No. Annoyingly unproductive? Yes.

I guess we have different definitions of scary and unproductive. :)

[Abbey Marie]

I guess we have different definitions of scary and unproductive. :)

:)

[jimnyc]

I'd rather have freedom of religion.

They have that. Unless you consider government money or recognition as "freedom".

They do have the same freedoms as every other religion, nothing is being stopped. Even if they were in the USA they would still be having all of their freedoms. Nothing would be establishing that religion, nor is anything prohibiting the free exercise.

--

Freedom of religion or freedom of belief is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or community, in public or private, to manifest religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship, and observance. It also includes the freedom to change one's religion or belief.[1]

Freedom of religion is considered by many people and most of the nations to be a fundamental human right.[2][3] In a country with a state religion, freedom of religion is generally considered to mean that the government permits religious practices of other sects besides the state religion, and does not persecute believers in other faiths.

[fj1200]

They have that. Unless you consider government money or recognition as "freedom".

They do have the same freedoms as every other religion, nothing is being stopped. Even if they were in the USA they would still be having all of their freedoms. Nothing would be establishing that religion, nor is anything prohibiting the free exercise.

--

Freedom of religion or freedom of belief is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or community, in public or private, to manifest religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship, and observance. It also includes the freedom to change one's religion or belief.[1]

Freedom of religion is considered by many people and most of the nations to be a fundamental human right.[2][3] In a country with a state religion, freedom of religion is generally considered to mean that the government permits religious practices of other sects besides the state religion, and does not persecute believers in other faiths.

That's not my definition of freedom. My definition is not having to register with the government. It seems counterproductive to engage in policies which may in fact drive some underground. Unintended consequences IMO.

[jimnyc]

That's not my definition of freedom. My definition is not having to register with the government. It seems counterproductive to engage in policies which may in fact drive some underground. Unintended consequences IMO.

Your definition truly doesn't matter. They WOULD be having "freedom of religion", which you pointed out, as what those freedoms call for they would still have.

Perhaps one can argue about an unnecessary regulation - but that has nothing to do with freedom of religion. And if a house of worship worth hundreds of thousands - I highly doubt they will give up and go hide somewhere rather than name their imam.... unless maybe they have something to hide.

EVERY church I've EVER went to - EVERY SINGLE ONE - the priests and others were ALL easily known, and even the names placed in the entrance way. Absolutely nothing to hide.

If they want to hide who preaches there - then perhaps they can go have their freedom of religion in a cave.

[fj1200]

Your definition truly doesn't matter. They WOULD be having "freedom of religion", which you pointed out, as what those freedoms call for they would still have.

Perhaps one can argue about an unnecessary regulation - but that has nothing to do with freedom of religion. And if a house of worship worth hundreds of thousands - I highly doubt they will give up and go hide somewhere rather than name their imam.... unless maybe they have something to hide.

EVERY church I've EVER went to - EVERY SINGLE ONE - the priests and others were ALL easily known, and even the names placed in the entrance way. Absolutely nothing to hide.

If they want to hide who preaches there - then perhaps they can go have their freedom of religion in a cave.

Which is what I'm arguing and it has much to do with freedom of religion IMO. There is certainly less freedom when government gets in its mind to start regulating and that is what they're doing. Should we emulate them? No; the Constitution would prohibit that IMO.

[jimnyc]

Which is what I'm arguing and it has much to do with freedom of religion IMO. There is certainly less freedom when government gets in its mind to start regulating and that is what they're doing. Should we emulate them? No; the Constitution would prohibit that IMO.

I know catholic churches in the USA are registered with the government/IRS. Perhaps they should go to court and do away with that crap.

[fj1200]

I know catholic churches in the USA are registered with the government/IRS. Perhaps they should go to court and do away with that crap.

Possibly. But then again they apparently prefer tax exempt status. At least there are no requirements on how to practice and differing requirements based on who they are.

[Abbey Marie]

Revisiting this thread. I wonder what has changed, if anything, and what are the consequences, if any. Too sick to do research right now.