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Little-Acorn
01-31-2017, 01:09 AM
Neil Gorsuch: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Gorsuch

On May 10, 2006, Gorsuch was nominated by President George W. Bush to the seat on the United States Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit vacated by Judge David M. Ebel when he took senior status.[6] Like Gorsuch, Ebel was also a former clerk of Supreme Court Justice Byron R. White. Just over two months later, on July 20, 2006, Gorsuch was confirmed by voice vote in the U.S. Senate.[13][6] Gorsuch was President Bush's fifth appointment to the Tenth Circuit.

Since he took office, Gorsuch has sent some of his law clerks on to become Supreme Court clerks, and he is sometimes regarded as a "feeder judge".[14]

Freedom of religion

Gorsuch is a believer in a broad definition of religious freedom and sided with Christian employers and religious organizations in the cases of Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc. and Little Sisters of the Poor. In the Hobby Lobby case, Gorsuch held that the requirement in the Affordable Care Act that employers provide insurance coverage for contraceptives without a co-pay violated the rights of those employers that object to use of contraceptives on religious grounds.[15] He wrote: "The ACA’s mandate requires them to violate their religious faith by forcing them to lend an impermissible degree of assistance to conduct their religion teaches to be gravely wrong.”[5]

In his dissent of the 2007 case Summum v. Pleasant Grove City, Gorsuch took the view that displaying a religious monument, such as the Ten Commandments, did not obligate a governmental authority to display other offered monuments, such as those from other religions.[16]

Authority of federal agencies

In writing his opinion for Gutierrez-Brizuela v. Lynch, Gorsuch postulated that the 1984 case of Chevron U.S.A., Inc. v. Natural Resources Defense Council, Inc., which gives federal agencies (and not the courts) the authority to interpret ambiguous laws and regulations, should be reconsidered.[17] In his opinion, Gorsuch wrote that the practice of administrative deference established by the Chevron case is “more than a little difficult to square with the Constitution of the framers’ design.”[18] The impact of an overturn of the Chevron case would be to shift power from federal agencies to the courts.[18]

Interstate commerce

Gorsuch has been an opponent of the dormant commerce clause, which allows state laws to be declared unconstitutional if they are interpreted to violate the commerce clause with respect to interstate commerce. In his opinion for the 2015 case of Energy and Environmental Legal Institute v. Epel, Gorsuch opined that Colorado's mandates for renewable energy did not violate the commerce clause by putting out-of-state coal companies at a disadvantage. Gorsuch wrote that the Colorado renewable energy law “isn’t a price-control statute, it doesn’t link prices paid in Colorado with those paid out of state, and it does not discriminate against out-of-staters”.[19]

Criminal law

In the 2012 case of United States v. Games-Perez, Gorsuch ruled on a case where a felon owned a gun in a jurisdiction where gun ownership by felons is illegal; however, the felon did not know that he was a felon at the time. Gorsuch concurred with the opinion that "The only statutory element separating innocent (even constitutionally protected) gun possession from criminal conduct in §§ 922(g) and 924(a) is a prior felony conviction. So the presumption that the government must prove mens rea here applies with full force."[20]

Death penalty

Gorsuch denied requests of death-row inmates seeking to escape executions.[21]

Legal philosophy

Gorsuch is a proponent of originalism, the idea that the Constitution should be interpreted as the Founding Fathers would have interpreted it, and of textualism, the idea that statutes should be interpreted literally, without considering the legislative history and underlying purpose of the law.[3][4]

In a 2005 speech at Case Western Reserve University, Gorsuch said that judges should strive "to apply the law as it is, focusing backward, not forward, and looking to text, structure, and history to decide what a reasonable reader at the time of the events in question would have understood the law to be -- not to decide cases based on their own moral convictions or the policy consequences they believe might serve society best."[24]

In a 2005 article published by National Review, Gorsuch argued that “American liberals have become addicted to the courtroom, relying on judges and lawyers rather than elected leaders and the ballot box, as the primary means of effecting their social agenda" and that they are "failing to reach out and persuade the public". Gorsuch wrote that, by relying on judges instead of elected officials and the ballot box to enact their agenda, American liberals are circumventing the democratic process on issues like gay marriage, school vouchers, and assisted suicide, and this has led to a compromised judiciary, which is no longer independent. Gorsuch wrote that American liberals' "overweening addiction" to using the courts for social debate is "bad for the nation and bad for the judiciary".[25][13]

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William H. Pryor Jr.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_H._Pryor_Jr.

Notable opinions

United States v. Phillips (11th Cir. 2016). Judge Pryor wrote an opinion for a unanimous panel, affirming the denial of Ted Phillips's motion to suppress. The police caught Phillips, a convicted felon, with a firearm while they were arresting him on a civil writ of bodily attachment for his failure to pay child support. The Court's opinion explored the original meaning of the Fourth Amendment and the history of civil writs to conclude that the writ for unpaid child support gave the police the authority to arrest Phillips and to conduct a search incident to arrest.[11]

Eternal Word Television Network, Inc. v. Sec'y, U.S. Dept. of Health & Human Servs. (11th Cir. 2014). In a unanimous order, a panel of the Eleventh Circuit enjoined the Secretary of HHS from enforcing the contraception mandate against Catholic television network EWTN. Judge Pryor specially concurred, explaining why, in light of the Supreme Court's decision in Hobby Lobby, EWTN had shown a substantial likelihood of success on the merits under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. The concurrence is particularly notable because Judge Pryor noted that he parted ways with decisions of the Sixth and Seventh Circuits on the subject "because the decisions of those courts are wholly unpersuasive."[12]

Walker v. R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Co. (11th Cir. 2013). On behalf of a unanimous panel, Pryor rejected the due process challenge brought by R.J. Reynolds to the application, as res judicata, of the previous determinations on liability made by a Florida jury in an unorthodox class action against the tobacco companies in the 1990s. The panel concluded that it was required to give full faith and credit to the decision of the Florida trial court, as interpreted by the Florida Supreme Court and that the application of full faith and credit did not violate the tobacco company's due process rights because R.J. Reynolds had been given notice and an opportunity to be heard throughout the litigation. The opinion is particularly notable for a colorful paragraph at its conclusion discussing the intractable problem of tobacco litigation.[13]

Day v. Persels & Associates (11th Cir. 2013). Pryor wrote the majority (2–1) opinion vacating a settlement award in a class action relating to debt-settlement services. The court concluded that the magistrate judge had subject-matter jurisdiction to approve the settlement because unnamed class members are not parties whose consent is required for adjudication by a magistrate judge. But the court also concluded that the magistrate judge had abused its discretion when it approved a settlement that provided no monetary relief to the class members because he found that the defendants could not pay such monetary relief, but no evidence supported that finding.[14]

United States v. Bellaizac-Hurtado (11th Cir. 2012). Pryor wrote the majority (2–1) opinion reversing the convictions of four defendants for drug-trafficking in the territorial waters of Panama because the Act that criminalized their behavior exceeded the authority of Congress under the Offences against the Law of Nations Clause of the Constitution. The opinion is the first in-depth interpretation of the constitutional provision by a federal circuit court. Judge Rosemary Barkett specially concurred in the judgment.[15]

United States v. Shaygan (11th Cir. 2011). Pryor wrote the majority (2–1) opinion vacating an award of over $600,000 in attorney's fees and costs against the United States and the public reprimand of two federal prosecutors. The court explained that the prosecution was objectively reasonable and did not warrant sanctions under the Hyde Amendment. The court also concluded that the district court had violated the due process rights of the federal prosecutors when it denied them notice of the charges and an opportunity to be heard.[16] Pryor later wrote a statement respecting the denial of rehearing en banc of this opinion in United States v. Shaygan (11th Cir. Apr. 10, 2012).[17]

First Vagabonds Church of God v. Orlando (11th Cir. 2011). Writing for a unanimous en banc court, Pryor rejected an as-applied challenge by Orlando Food Not Bombs to a municipal ordinance that restricted the frequency of its feedings of homeless persons in parks located within a 2-mile radius of the Orlando City Hall. The court assumed, without deciding, that the feeding of homeless persons constituted expressive conduct and determined that the ordinance, as applied to Orlando Food Not Bombs, constituted a reasonable time, place, or manner restriction and a reasonable regulation of expressive conduct.[18]

In re United States (11th Cir. 2010). Pryor wrote the majority (2–1) opinion granting a writ of mandamus to substitute an Assistant Administrator of the EPA for the appearance of the Administrator in a case about the ecology of the Everglades. The panel explained that the district court had abused its discretion in ordering the appearance of the agency head and encroached on the separation of powers.[19]

Scott v. Roberts (11th Cir. 2010). Pryor wrote for a unanimous panel reversing the district court and preliminarily enjoining the enforcement of a Florida law that provided a dollar-for-dollar subsidy to a candidate's opponent once that candidate exceeded a statutory expenditure limit. The panel concluded that Rick Scott, then-candidate in the Republican primary for the Governor of Florida, had made a substantial showing of likelihood of success on the merits because, even if the law served compelling state interests, the law was not the least restrictive means of serving those interests. Scott went on to win the Republican primary and the general election.[20]

Common Cause/Georgia v. Billups (11th Cir. 2009). Pryor wrote for a unanimous panel upholding a Georgia law that required all registered voters in Georgia to present a government-issued photo identification to be allowed to vote in person. The law also required Georgia to issue, free of charge, a "Georgia voter identification card" to any registered Georgia voter who lacked an acceptable form of identification. The panel concluded that the NAACP and voters had standing to challenge the law, but that the district court did not abuse its discretion when it declined to enjoin the law because the burdens on voters from the law were insignificant and the state had legitimate interests in preventing voter fraud.[21]

Pelphrey v. Cobb County (11th Cir. 2008). Pryor wrote the majority (2–1) opinion, joined by Judge Charles R. Wilson, affirming the district court ruling that sectarian prayers used to open commission meetings did not violate the Establishment Clause as long as the prayer opportunity was not exploited to proselytize or to advance or disparage any particular faith or belief. U.S. District Court Judge Donald Middlebrooks dissented.[22]

United States v. Campa, (11th Cir. 2008). Pryor wrote the majority (2–1) opinion, joined by Judge Birch, upholding the convictions of five Cuban spies ("The Cuban Five") for espionage.[23]
Zibtluda LLC v. Gwinnett County, Georgia, (11th Cir. 2005). Opinion affirmed district court ruling that a local ordinance limiting the placement of adult entertainment establishments was constitutional. The opinion was notable for Pryor's quote of a line from The B-52's hit song "Love Shack" in describing the proposed establishment.[24]

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Thomas Hardiman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hardiman

Notable rulings

Police and prison powers

In the 2012 case of Florence v. Board of Chosen Freeholders, which was affirmed by the Supreme Court of the United States, Hardiman held that a jail policy of strip-searching everyone who was arrested does not violate the prohibition of unreasonable searches and seizures in the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution.[17]

In the 2014 case of Karen Barkes v. First Correctional Medical, Inc., et al., Hardiman dissented from the ruling of the Third Circuit that two Delaware prison officials could be sued for failing to provide adequate suicide prevention protocols after a mentally ill inmate committed suicide. The Supreme Court agreed and unanimously reversed in Taylor v. Barkes.[18]

Criminal sentencing

In the 2010 case of United States v. Abbott, which was affirmed by the Supreme Court of the United States, Hardiman held that a defendant's mandatory minimum sentence is not affected by the imposition of another mandatory minimum for a different offense.

In the 2007 case of United States of America v. Tracy Lamar Fisher Hardiman ruled that a judge could find facts to enhance a criminal sentence according to the preponderance of the evidence standard of proof.[19]

Religious freedom

In the 2008 case of Busch vs. Marple Newton School District, Hardiman held the minority opinion, ruling in favor of parents who described themselves as Evangelical Christians and were barred from reading from the Bible during a kindergarten "show and tell" presentation. Hardiman wrote that "the school went too far in this case in limiting participation in ‘All About Me’ week to nonreligious perspectives," which "plainly constituted" discrimination. Hardiman also wrote that "the majority’s desire to protect young children from potentially influential speech in the classroom is understandable" but that it cannot be used to bar the students from expressing "something about themselves, except what is most important to them."[20]

Gun rights

In the 2011 case of United States of America vs. James Francis Barton, Jr., Hardiman rejected a challenge to the federal law that bans felons from owning firearms.[21] However, in the 2016 case of Daniel Binderup v. Attorney General of United States of America and Director Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms & Explosives, he qualified such opinion to only include dangerous persons which were likely to use firearms for illicit purposes. He wrote "the most cogent principle that can be drawn from traditional limitations on the right to keep and bear arms is that dangerous persons likely to use firearms for illicit purposes were not understood to be protected by the Second Amendment".[22]

In the 2014 case of Drake v. Filko, Hardiman disagreed with the New Jersey requirement that gun owners must show a "justifiable need" to own a gun. Hardiman cited the case of District of Columbia v. Heller, writing that based on the Heller ruling, the Second Amendment "protects an inherent right to self-defense."[23]

Free speech

In the 2006 case of United States of America v. Robert J. Stevens, Hardiman struck down a federal law that criminalized videos depicting animal cruelty.[24]

In the 2010 case of Brian D. Kelly v. Borough of Carlisle, Hardiman ruled that a police officer had qualified immunity because there is no clearly established First Amendment right to videotape police officers during traffic stops.[25]

In the 2013 case of B.H. Hawk & Relatives v. Easton Area School District, Hardiman dissented from the court's holding that a public school violated the First Amendment by banning middle-school students from wearing bracelets inscribed "I [love] boobies!" that were sold by a breast cancer awareness group.[26]

In the 2014 case of Lodge No. 5 of Fraternal Order of Police v. City of Philadelphia, Hardiman struck down a city charter provision barring police officers from donating to their union's political action committee, under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.[27]

Immigration

In the 2010 case of Mauricio Valdiviezo-Galdamez v. Attorney General of United States of America, Hardiman ruled in favor of a male from Honduras who was seeking asylum in the United States to avoid being recruited into a violent gang.[28]

In the 2015 case of Di Li Li v. Attorney General of United States of America, Hardiman opined that the Board of Immigration Appeals must re-open a case when an asylum seeker from China converted to Christianity and argued that "conditions have worsened over time" for Christians in China.[29]

Commerce

In the 2011 case of United States of America v. Thomas S. Pendleton, Hardiman ruled in the case of a man who sexually molested a 15-year old boy in Germany and was later sentenced in Delaware under the PROTECT Act of 2003. The defendant argued that the PROTECT Act was unconstitutional based on the Foreign Commerce Clause. Hardiman ruled that the PROTECT Act was valid because of an "express connection" to the channels of foreign commerce.[30]

Bankruptcy law

In the 2015 case of In re Jevic Holding Corp., Hardiman ruled that a "structured dismissal" of a Chapter 11 bankruptcy may, in rare circumstances, deviate from the priority system of the Bankruptcy Code.[31]

Noir
01-31-2017, 04:41 AM
In the 2006 case of United States of America v. Robert J. Stevens, Hardiman struck down a federal law that criminalized videos depicting animal cruelty.[24]

...what?

Gunny
01-31-2017, 09:43 AM
...what?[/COLOR]

Bad decision as far as I am concerned.

Kathianne
01-31-2017, 09:48 AM
It was a first amendment case:

http://www.scotusblog.com/2010/04/first-amendment-left-intact/

Kathianne
01-31-2017, 09:52 AM
The above was the SCOTUS case, how it got there:

https://www.justice.gov/osg/brief/united-states-v-stevens-petition

fj1200
01-31-2017, 09:53 AM
It was a first amendment case:

http://www.scotusblog.com/2010/04/first-amendment-left-intact/

And almost unanimous which includes Sotomayor, Ginsburg, Breyer, and Kennedy. :interesting:

Gunny
01-31-2017, 09:59 AM
It was a first amendment case:

http://www.scotusblog.com/2010/04/first-amendment-left-intact/

Perhaps. What I have to wonder is whatever happened to having some class and decorum? There are KY commercials on my TV during prime time now. I don't want to have to explain to my 8 years old granddaughter what KY is.

And the ASPCA is worse than a human adoption agency. You couldn't pay them FOR me. They put on the drama queen crap beyond the pale. And I love animals. All of ours are rescues. Instead of filming the most abused animals they can find, take care of them. I don't want to look at them when I know it's staged BS and a play on emotion.

fj1200
01-31-2017, 10:05 AM
Perhaps. What I have to wonder is whatever happened to having some class and decorum? There are KY commercials on my TV during prime time now. I don't want to have to explain to my 8 years old granddaughter what KY is.

And the ASPCA is worse than a human adoption agency. You couldn't pay them FOR me. They put on the drama queen crap beyond the pale. And I love animals. All of ours are rescues. Instead of filming the most abused animals they can find, take care of them. I don't want to look at them when I know it's staged BS and a play on emotion.

That is, in part, an FCC issue. They govern the airwaves, but not cable.

Russ
01-31-2017, 03:11 PM
...what?[/COLOR]

I'm with you on that one, Noir.

Noir
01-31-2017, 03:38 PM
It was a first amendment case:

http://www.scotusblog.com/2010/04/first-amendment-left-intact/


Refusing to remove another form of expression from the protection of the First Amendment, the Supreme Court on Tuesday ruled 8-1 that the government lacks the power to outlaw expressions of animal cruelty, when that is done in videotapes and other commercial media. The Court noted that it had previously withdrawn “a few historic categories” of speech from the First Amendment’s shield, but concluded that “depictions of animal cruelty should not be added to the list.” The decision nullified a 1999 federal law passed by Congress in an attempt to curb animal cruelty by forbidding its depiction. That law, the Court said, sweeps too broadly.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Good grief.
Idiotic application of the first amendment is idiotic.

Abbey Marie
01-31-2017, 05:37 PM
[/FONT][/COLOR]:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Good grief.
Idiotic application of the first amendment is idiotic.

I agre with you about this.

And I would add hard core porn to the list.

jimnyc
01-31-2017, 05:39 PM
I HATE animal abuse of any kind. But I would still prefer to see burning the American Flag banned before 'depicting' animal abuse. And IMO, folks that go around posting animal abuse pictures and videos, in the name of helping said animals, don't really do any favors in that department. But I would imagine some who post pictures like that, pointing out abuses of animals, would say that them doing so should be protected.

Noir
01-31-2017, 05:47 PM
I agre with you about this.

And I would add hard core porn to the list.

What consenting adults do with each other is not in the same field as abusing animals.

Noir
01-31-2017, 05:48 PM
I HATE animal abuse of any kind.

Except the kind you pay for, but that's for another topic.

jimnyc
01-31-2017, 05:55 PM
Except the kind you pay for, but that's for another topic.

WTF? And clip out the rest. Point I was making - EVEN YOU have posted animal abuse pictures in the past to make a point about that very abuse. And I'm confident you probably think doing so should be some sort of protected speech and fighting out against such places.

Abbey Marie
01-31-2017, 05:55 PM
What consenting adults do with each other is not in the same field as abusing animals.

For you it isn't. For me it is. How nicely you try to characterize it. Conviently leaving out the fact that these adults are putting their filth on film and pushing it on society any way they can.

Tough, isn't it, when something bothers you, but others just shrug and essentially tell you you're wrong and you should get over it?

Noir
01-31-2017, 06:00 PM
For you it isn't. For me it is. How nicely you try to characterize it. Conviently leaving out the fact that these adults are putting their filth on film and pushing it on society any way they can.

Tough, isn't it, when something bothers you, but others just shrug and essentially tell you you're wrong and you should get over it?

Tough? No.
Pushing it on you? If you don't ever want to watch "hard core porn" you won't.

Kathianne
01-31-2017, 06:02 PM
For you it isn't. For me it is. How nicely you try to characterize it. Conviently leaving out the fact that these adults are putting their filth on film and pushing it on society any way they can.

Tough, isn't it, when something bothers you, but others just shrug and essentially tell you you're wrong and you should get over it?


and the above is why it's so nice we have the 1st amendment.

I probably agree with Abbey and Gunny regarding what I'd like to 'not see' on the tv, but then again, those commercials must be doing what they are meant to or the money for them wouldn't be being spent.

I personally find the animal abuse commercials so offensive I always change the channel when they come on. I can't just mute it, the visuals are that offensive to me.

I'm assuming they are allowed BECAUSE of the ruling.

What I'm pretty sure is an equivalent that is likely on the 'list of those NOT allowed' are like visuals of abortions. I seriously wonder if this case couldn't get that exclusion removed.

I do think some things should be barred from television, but am a strong enough proponent of the first amendment to realize what offends me, might not someone else. We don't have a 'right' not to be offended.

Noir
01-31-2017, 06:03 PM
WTF? And clip out the rest. Point I was making - EVEN YOU have posted animal abuse pictures in the past to make a point about that very abuse. And I'm confident you probably think doing so should be some sort of protected speech and fighting out against such places.

Yeah that's fair, I was only thinking of it as a product of promotion.

Kathianne
01-31-2017, 06:04 PM
Yeah that's fair, I was only thinking of it as a product of promotion.

and yet what I'd posted about the case, made it clear.

Abbey Marie
01-31-2017, 06:05 PM
and the above is why it's so nice we have the 1st amendment.

I probably agree with Abbey and Gunny regarding what I'd like to 'not see' on the tv, but then again, those commercials must be doing what they are meant to or the money for them wouldn't be being spent.

I personally find the animal abuse commercials so offensive I always change the channel when they come on. I can't just mute it, the visuals are that offensive to me.

I'm assuming they are allowed BECAUSE of the ruling.

What I'm pretty sure is an equivalent that is likely on the 'list of those NOT allowed' are like visuals of abortions. I seriously wonder if this case couldn't get that exclusion removed.

I do think some things should be barred from television, but am a strong enough proponent of the first amendment to realize what offends me, might not someone else. We don't have a 'right' not to be offended.

We do have the right to turn off our TVs. The problem comes when children see such things. And we all know they will see it; if not at home, then at a friend's house.

jimnyc
01-31-2017, 06:08 PM
and the above is why it's so nice we have the 1st amendment.

I probably agree with Abbey and Gunny regarding what I'd like to 'not see' on the tv, but then again, those commercials must be doing what they are meant to or the money for them wouldn't be being spent.

I personally find the animal abuse commercials so offensive I always change the channel when they come on. I can't just mute it, the visuals are that offensive to me.

I'm assuming they are allowed BECAUSE of the ruling.

What I'm pretty sure is an equivalent that is likely on the 'list of those NOT allowed' are like visuals of abortions. I seriously wonder if this case couldn't get that exclusion removed.

I do think some things should be barred from television, but am a strong enough proponent of the first amendment to realize what offends me, might not someone else. We don't have a 'right' not to be offended.

Same here, I instantly hit the reverse button and it goes to whatever channel was on before, and then I'll hit reverse again in line 2 minutes or so. I'm not out protesting to have any of those images/videos removed, and perhaps they do have some success. I've donated SO mcuh money over the years to places that help with animal abuse (cats and dogs mainly). I just don't want the info in front of me on TV, and just opt out by changing the channel. Do I think it should somehow be unlawful? Like I said, I think the burning of the flag should be an exception, and made to be illegal. Many disagree with that. I wouldn't lose any sleep if those things were never to be seen again. At the same time, I can see where the 1st comes in to play.

Kathianne
01-31-2017, 06:08 PM
We do have the right to turn off our TVs. The problem comes when children see such things. And we all know they will see it; if not at home, then at a friend's house.

There is no way to create television programming that someone wouldn't be offended at. Your choices might not be mine and vice versa. Ultimately, that is why I'm good with sticking with the first amendments-not perfect, but better than it could be.

jimnyc
01-31-2017, 06:12 PM
Yeah that's fair, I was only thinking of it as a product of promotion.

I think you were being hypocritical in it's use, and would see it ok for your agenda, but wrong of others for different reasons. Either the 1st applies or it doesn't.

Noir
01-31-2017, 06:15 PM
I think you were being hypocritical in it's use, and would see it ok for your agenda, but wrong of others for different reasons. Either the 1st applies or it doesn't.

Yeah my awful agenda of 'don't abuse animals'.

Kathianne
01-31-2017, 06:15 PM
I think you were being hypocritical in it's use, and would see it ok for your agenda, but wrong of others for different reasons. Either the 1st applies or it doesn't.

My point exactly in using abortion as an equivalency. I would certainly find it more offensive and upsetting, but using the same logic in preventing more of the crime.

Abbey Marie
01-31-2017, 06:35 PM
Tough? No.
Pushing it on you? If you don't ever want to watch "hard core porn" you won't.

Gee, Noir, I wonder if any marriages have been ruined over this issue. What do you think?

Kathianne
01-31-2017, 06:40 PM
With a bit less than a 1/2 hour to go, seems the seers are saying, 'Gorsuch.' I've also read that both he and Hardiman will be there, with Trump possibly saying they are his 'first two picks,' one has to go first.

I hope not, would be a mistake, to announce the second in advance. Too much time for the left to galvanize OR undermine Gorsuch if he's first, knowing who's waiting in the wings.

Black Diamond
01-31-2017, 06:40 PM
Gee, Noir, I wonder if any marriages have been ruined over this issue. What do you think?
Jealousy, porn instead of sex?

Abbey Marie
01-31-2017, 06:42 PM
There is no way to create television programming that someone wouldn't be offended at. Your choices might not be mine and vice versa. Ultimately, that is why I'm good with sticking with the first amendments-not perfect, but better than it could be.

I could reluctantly agree if it weren't for the children issue I mentioned above. I am beyond appalled by that.

But my main point to Noir was that he can't see that we all have things we think shouldn't be seen. It's easy to make exceptions to the 1st Amend if it's a cause you feel strongly about. And though I understood his feelings on the animal abuse, he predictably could not see mine.

Kathianne
01-31-2017, 06:50 PM
I could reluctantly agree if it weren't for the children issue I mentioned above. I am beyond appalled by that.

But my main point to Noir was that he can't see that we all have things we think shouldn't be seen. It's easy to make exceptions to the 1st Amend if it's a cause you feel strongly about. And though I understood his feelings on the animal abuse, he predictably could not see mine.

Which is why I come back to the first.

I too care about the children seeing things that can't be unseen. I was a control freak with my kids and think that was right. They did not see any television that I didn't put on.

Yes, once they hit school age, going to friends, some control was lost. I could make sure they went with parents I trusted, but certainly had no control over what they let the kids watch. I was ok with that, by that time we'd certainly talked about why they weren't allowed to watch certain movies or television programs at home. I continued to influence them on good choices and that was that.

I do know that one of my friends told me that the kids often said, "My mom wouldn't let us watch that or that or that. . ." LOL! She told them her house, her rules. When her kids came to our house, same thing. I was fussier than most, I knew that and could live with those that weren't as much so. If the kids couldn't handle an hour or so of something I wasn't doing a very good job.

jimnyc
01-31-2017, 07:07 PM
Yeah my awful agenda of 'don't abuse animals'.

No one said that. AGAIN, the point is - YOU using such types of photos, then have an issue with a conservative judge that also voted with others to strike down a law that criminalized depiction of animal cruelty. You take issue with a judge who protected the very actions and photos you yourself have posted. You like the 1st amendment until you don't.

Black Diamond
01-31-2017, 07:25 PM
With a bit less than a 1/2 hour to go, seems the seers are saying, 'Gorsuch.' I've also read that both he and Hardiman will be there, with Trump possibly saying they are his 'first two picks,' one has to go first.

I hope not, would be a mistake, to announce the second in advance. Too much time for the left to galvanize OR undermine Gorsuch if he's first, knowing who's waiting in the wings.
Was it initially going to be announced tomorrow ?

Kathianne
01-31-2017, 07:31 PM
Was it initially going to be announced tomorrow ?

Yes, which is why I made a different thread about 'Change the topic...' ;)

I found out there are two hours between here and AK, announcement is at 6pm my time.

fj1200
02-01-2017, 10:22 AM
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Good grief.
Idiotic application of the first amendment is idiotic.

Sometimes bad law is bad law. An 8-1 decision is a pretty good indicator.


While the Court conceded that Congress had passed the law to try to stop interstate trafficking in so-called “crush videos,” showing the actual killing of cats, dogs and other small animals by stomping or other intensely cruel methods, it said the resulting law itself reached far more than that kind of portrayal. Limiting the law’s reach to those depictions, the opinion said, would require the Court to give “an unrealistically broad reading” to the exceptions Congress wrote into the law.


I agre with you about this.

And I would add hard core porn to the list.

I believe it already is.

Twas incorrect.


Recalling its precedent putting child pornography outside the First Amendment, the opinion said that the Court had done so because the depictions of such pornography was necessarily linked to actual abuse of children in the production of such materials. That approach, and other cases discussing what the First Amendment does not protect, the Court added, “cannot be taken as establishing a freewheeling authority to declare new categories of speech outside the scope of the First Amendment.” While there may be some categories of speech not yet identified that could be placed outside the First Amendment, “there is no evidence that ‘depictions of animal cruelty’ is among them,” the Court said.

Kathianne
02-01-2017, 10:25 AM
Sometimes bad law is bad law. An 8-1 decision is a pretty good indicator.





I believe it already is.

The problem with the 'bans' is while we basically agree that 'we know porn when we see it,' the 'when' differs for many people. For some, soft is hard and XXX is just getting started. That is why I think, the court rules on the side of narrow rulings, as just a 'porn ban' would have parameters too far.

fj1200
02-01-2017, 10:28 AM
The problem with the 'bans' is while we basically agree that 'we know porn when we see it,' the 'when' differs for many people. For some, soft is hard and XXX is just getting started. That is why I think, the court rules on the side of narrow rulings, as just a 'porn ban' would have parameters too far.

Freedoms require taking some bad with all the good.

Kathianne
02-01-2017, 10:37 AM
Freedoms require taking some bad with all the good.

Exactly. If I had control, which probably wouldn't be that great of an idea for anyone but me, tv and the internet would be 'cleaned up.' I just realize that my ideas of that, might differ greatly from others.

Some adjustments are made-there are limits to what can appear during hours considered 'Children's hours.' Most networks also self-impose certain guidelines at what they consider 'family hours.'

However, there is no way to predict when someone will be offended or by what. Some have very low thresholds.

It reminds me of some 'orthodox Evangelicals' who literally went to war over Halloween celebrations in schools. It was not in reaction, other than inspired perhaps, by changes in calling 'Christmas Break' into 'Winter Break.'

Abbey Marie
02-01-2017, 10:52 AM
The problem with the 'bans' is while we basically agree that 'we know porn when we see it,' the 'when' differs for many people. For some, soft is hard and XXX is just getting started. That is why I think, the court rules on the side of narrow rulings, as just a 'porn ban' would have parameters too far.

It is not the existence of this dreck that is the biggest problem. It is the accessibility, and even worse, the actual pushing that goes on to lure people in. Primarily men. It is far from harmless in that regard. Not to mention the young women whose lives are ruined by participating in it. Too many drugs to notice. And as I've mentioned, marriages ruined by it. Most notably that of an assistant pastor in our church. There is just too much $$ to be made by the companies that promote it. (I have heard from an employee that Comcast makes most of its money from it. Have not verified that, though no doubt the earnings are significant either way).

I studied these cases in law school, and was made aware of the various opinions, most notably Potter's "I know it when I see it". I do not lack the knowledge needed to explain rulings protecting it. I just disagree with it, much like I disagree with the decision in Roe. (Although Roe has much bigger legal fictions involved).

I am fully cognizant of the fact that much of the world, and probably this very board, have decided that this stuff is rather harmless and worthy of protection. And that I am "out of step" with such thinking. That is perfectly fine with me. :)

Here's a thought we can ponder: Would a Constitutional "originalist" logically think that the Founders would find pornograpic content protected under the 1st?

Gunny
02-01-2017, 10:59 AM
For you it isn't. For me it is. How nicely you try to characterize it. Conviently leaving out the fact that these adults are putting their filth on film and pushing it on society any way they can.

Tough, isn't it, when something bothers you, but others just shrug and essentially tell you you're wrong and you should get over it?

I don't want that trash on my tv. We had to go through and block it all. one at a time. We have little kids in the house.

Kathianne
02-01-2017, 11:05 AM
It is not the existence of this dreck that is the biggest problem. It is the accessibility, and even worse, the actual pushing that goes on to lure people in. Primarily men. It is far from harmless in that regard. Not to mention the young women whose lives are ruined by participating in it. Too many drugs to notice. And as I've mentioned, marriages ruined by it. Most notably that of an assistant pastor in our church. There is just too much $$ to be made by the companies that promote it. (I have heard from an employee that Comcast makes most of its money from it. Have not verified that, though no doubt the earnings are significant either way).

I studied these cases in law school, and was made aware of the various opinions, most notably Potter's "I know it when I see it". I do not lack the knowledge needed to explain rulings protecting it. I just disagree with it, much like I disagree with the decision in Roe. (Although Roe has much bigger legal fictions involved).

I am fully cognizant of the fact that much of the world, and probably this very board, have decided that this stuff is rather harmless and worthy of protection. And that I am "out of step" with such thinking. That is perfectly fine with me. :)

Here's a thought we can ponder: Should a Constitutional "originalist" think that the Founders would find pornograpic content protected under the 1st?

I doubt are personal standards are far apart, likely pretty close together from what you've written. I do understand your point, indeed would say to anyone considering 'checking out' adult entertainment to exercise self discipline. I would not have that filth in my home, nor remain quiet if I turned on the television in one of my kid's homes or even a friend's. I'd be concerned of what might result.

However, I do believe there has to be free will. I choose what and whom I will associate and pick my interactions with those whom I choose to believe will respect my parameters. Doesn't mean they hold the same, just won't overstep or force things I don't wish to deal with. Just as I choose what to watch and what to buy or not to buy.

When sites or conversations go too dark or what I deem too offensive, I avoid. If I run into too many, I leave. It's a choice we all make, some how more or less tolerance than others.

I don't doubt the soul corruption of pornography, far from it. I don't doubt the same from drugs and other possible vices.

It seems some can 'dabble' and not be ensnared, others are doomed from the introduction. That first step though? That's a choice.

Gunny
02-01-2017, 11:13 AM
We do have the right to turn off our TVs. The problem comes when children see such things. And we all know they will see it; if not at home, then at a friend's house.

I leave the room. And you hit the nail on the head. Kids.

When I want to watch something my granddaughters are not allowed to, I go up to my room and close the door. And no, I don't watch porn. :slap: They aren't allowed to watch anything violent, or horror ... stuff like that.

I find it unfair to them that they can't watch anything but the Disney Channel because of all the trash on the tube. I find the abuse of animals appalling. I find exploiting the abuse of animals just as bad.