A question for Pale

[Sitarro]

Pale,
Knowing the experience you have had with jet aircraft in the U.S. Air Force, I have a question. I have heard that modern jetfighters need a great deal of maintenance pretty often, What is the breakdown in hours of flight....... maintenance needed(i.e. rebuilding of engine, need for parts)?

The point being is that if we sell the Saudis aircraft that need to be maintained with parts and qualified technicians, isn't that itself a potential gold mine of cash that they will be shoveling out each year? Won't we still have a great deal of control over the viability of those aircraft by being the supplier of parts and qualified people to work on them? Seems like it would be a bit like what parents today do with teenagers...... they get them a car with the understanding that if they act up the keys are taken away. Doesn't Venezuala have American weapons systems that need parts and can't do anything without them? Seems like Iran has some of our planes also that are grounded.

The Saudis are going to buy weapon systems whether we sell them to them or not....... if we do the selling, we maintain a certain amount of control while making a shitload of money.

[darin]

Iran has F16s - I don't assume we're sending over parts and technicians, etc.

[glockmail]

Iran has F16s - I don't assume we're sending over parts and technicians, etc.
That's news to me. How'd they get 'em?

[Hagbard Celine]

That's news to me. How'd they get 'em?

I'd assume that we sold them to them. Iran was our ally for a long time--back when the Shah was in power. Of course, we all know that being "allies" isn't really an issue when money's involved anyway.

[darin]

That's news to me. How'd they get 'em?

I believe they were sold during the Carter Administration.

[glockmail]

I'd assume that we sold them to them. Iran was our ally for a long time--back when the Shah was in power. Of course, we all know that being "allies" isn't really an issue when money's involved anyway.


I believe they were sold during the Carter Administration.


Hag: you should ask the peace-nik Carter why he chose money over security. :laugh2:

dmp: That's the story that I remember, and the liberals wish to forget. But wth regards to the use of these jets without spare parts, my understanding that they have been forced to sit idle since the Reagan Administration.

[Sitarro]

This site has an interesting article about 80 F-14s that were sold to Iran in 1974. It has some nice shots of their F-14s.

http://aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0077.shtml

Is there a list of countries that have the F-14?
- question from Paul Billard
I would like to know about the F-14A Tomcat used by Iran. How was it employed in the Iran-Iraq war. What are the kills/losses figures? How many are left in service? Will they be upgraded? And is it true that they were sabotaged so that they could not fire they Phoenix missiles? If yes, How?
- question from Sergei Ivanov

By "have," I assume you mean countries that operate the F-14, as opposed to nations like the Soviet Union that may have "acquired" a handful of them over the years. The users of this aircraft are listed in our entry on the Grumman F-14 Tomcat which indicates that only the US and Iran purchased the design.
While service of the F-14 in the US Navy is well-known and well-documented, by the classic film Top Gun, at the very least, its operations with the Imperial Iranian Air Force (IIAF) and Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force (IRIAF) have largely remained a mystery. Under the pro-western Shah of Iran, the IIAF had benefitted greatly by interaction with the West, and Iran was able to purchase large amounts of sophisticated US military equipment to protect against the Soviet threat. By the early 1970s, the bulk of the IIAF was made up of Northrop F-5A and E, McDonnell Douglas F-4D and E Phantom II, and Lockheed P-3F Orion aircraft. However, none of these were able to ward off Soviet MiG-25 reconnaissance fighters that were making frequent flights over Iranian terrirory. This fact was made clear to US President Richard Nixon during his visit to Iran in May 1972 during which the Shah requested a means of intercepting the high-speed Soviet aircraft.



F-14 of the Imperial Iranian Air Force
Having received permission from the US government, Iran decided to purchase the F-14 Tomcat over a competing F-15 Eagle offer. An intial order for 30 F-14s was signed in January 1974, and this number was later increased to 80. The first of these aircraft arrived in Iran in January 1976, differing only from their American counterparts in the removal of certain classified avionics systems. These aircraft were also fitted with the improved TF30-414 engine, standard on later production models. Twelve aircraft were delivered by May 1977, and one of these was used to shoot down a BQM-34E target drone flying at 50,000 feet with an AIM-54 Phoenix missile in August of that year. This successful demonstration quickly convinced the Soviets to end the MiG-25 overflights. Deliveries continued until 1978 when the 79th unit was delivered, one example remaining in the US as a testbed (this plane was later transferred to US Navy flight test duties at the Point Mugu Naval Air Station following the Revolution). Some 714 Phoenix missiles were also ordered, but only 284 of these were delivered by the time of the Iranian Revolution in 1979.

Following the overthrow of the Shah and the ascension of Ayatolla Khomeini to power, the new government cancelled further contracts for Phoenix missiles and other Western arms. Continuing decay in relations with the US led Pres. Carter to impose an arms embargo on Iran that still continues today. Without Western contractor assistance, a lack of spare parts and maintenance support quickly degraded the ability of the IRIAF to operate its fleet of US-built aircraft. Fundamentalist purges of Air Force officers, pilots, and personnel who were perceived to support the Shah further worsened the situation.

In addition to the effects of the embargo itself, rumors suggest that all 77 remaining Tomcats (two had been lost in 1977 during training flights) were somehow sabotaged so that they could no longer fire their Phoenix missiles. Whether or not these rumors have any merit to them is debated, as is the identity of who may have performed this sabotage and how. Various accounts credit the act to either departing Grumman technicians or Iranian Air Force personnel friendly to the US. Perhaps the simplest and most effective means of performing this sabotage would have been to remove or somehow corrupt the software in the aircraft's flight computer that interfaces with and commands the missiles, but there is no proof this was done. Some sources even go so far as to claim that Iranian revolutionaries performed the sabotage as revenge against an Air Force perceived to be pro-Shah, but this seems very unlikely given the technical skill required.

[Hagbard Celine]

Hag: you should ask the peace-nik Carter why he chose money over security. :laugh2:

dmp: That's the story that I remember, and the liberals wish to forget. But wth regards to the use of these jets without spare parts, my understanding that they have been forced to sit idle since the Reagan Administration.

Laugh all you want, but he was probably trying to put an end to the Iranian hostage crisis.

[Black Lance]

Iran has F16s - I don't assume we're sending over parts and technicians, etc.

I think it was the F-14 we sold them. There was actually discussion of selling spare parts and supplies for these planes to Iran, but the idea met with a mixed reaction, at best.

[theHawk]

Alot of good information about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Force
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-14

Nixon made a deal with Shah led Iran after visiting there in 1972.
79 F-14s were delivered up until 1979, when the Shah was overthrown during the Carter years.
Shortly after they stopped delivery and held the spare parts too.

[Black Lance]

Laugh all you want, but he was probably trying to put an end to the Iranian hostage crisis.

That certainly seems possible, and to be honest selling Iran obsolete military surplus doesn't seem like a bad idea to me. Hamas isn't going to be able to use spare F-14 parts, and selling these to Iran would not only be a way of making some money for the USA, but it also might provide us with some leverage to use when dealing with Tehran diplomatically. Not to mention the obvious advantage in terms of military intelligence.

[glockmail]

Laugh all you want, but he was probably trying to put an end to the Iranian hostage crisis. Oh I'm sure Carter would have gave the Iranians his wife and kids, as well as his own sphincter for their pleasure to solve that crisis. :lol:

Hag let me help you view Mr. Carter in my perspective. Carter was elected in 1976, and I graduated from HS 6 months later. We had to wait in line to get gas on odd or even days. I went right into college into a tri-semester system, working every other one to help pay my bills. I was lucky to have chosen a technical field that had jobs; most of my friends were not so lucky. When I goy my paychecks I would go straight to the store to get what I needed for the next two weeks, because inflation was 18% and the cost of everything would go up every week. I had planned on a job after college in wastewater treatment but Carter’s policies ripped the bottom out of that market. During Carter’s last 1.5 years we had to endure the shame of the hostage crisis. Even as a naïve but studly 20 year old I saw all this for what it was: a weak president who did not have a clue how to handle bullies.

Carter played right into their hands as the inept appeaser. His weakness gave them power. Ahmajinadad was one of the hostage takers and owes his current stature to Jiminy Carter.

Reagan promised to kick some Iranian ass and as a result won the 1980 election by a landslide, and the hostages were released the day of his inauguration.

[nevadamedic]

Iran has F16s - I don't assume we're sending over parts and technicians, etc.

I have herd that they have more advanced Air Craft then that. I also read somewhere that they have a couple Submarines............

[diuretic]

They - the Saudis - used to buy their aircraft from the Brits - they had EE/BAe Lightnings for a long while. I don't know what they purchased when they replaced them. However I suppose they could always go to the Russians, they have some pretty good aircraft now.