This is Nuts!

[Elessar]

California Guard vets told to repay millions in enlistment bonuses
http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/24/us/national-guard-recruitment-bonus-repayment/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/24/us/national-guard-recruitment-bonus-repayment/index.html)

[gabosaurus]

I read about this last week and was stunned into disbelief. The military makes a mistake and expects former recruits to pay for it? How disrespectful is that?

[Elessar]

What is not clear here is the CA National Guard, mobilized, responded and served.
They were given incentives to continue service and took those in good faith and kept going in service.

They get home and find they have lost their jobs in the public sector. Some had to refinance
their homes.

Now this crooked state wants the money back? CA is worse than NJ.

Public Works Commissioner for water dept in LA County earns over $440,000 a year.
LA County Sheriff gets over $225,000 a year.
....and here's the rub...all both have to do is stay in office for ONE YEAR, and their pension
is 100% of the salary.

So....CA is going to pull back incentives to it's Citizen Soldiers?
The ones who turn out and respond for disasters, civil insurrection, and humanitarian response?

Fuc*** Up State is CA.

[gabosaurus]

Worse yet, members of the California National Guard reported this injustice to Congress two years ago. Congress took no action.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-bonus-guard-20161024-snap-story.html

[Elessar]

I read about this last week and was stunned into disbelief. The military makes a mistake and expects former recruits to pay for it? How disrespectful is that?

Gabby..

It was not the military. It was the State!

Aye, they are funded under the DOD, but it was the State, their Command
that issued the incentives.
'

[Elessar]

Worse yet, members of the California National Guard reported this injustice to Congress two years ago. Congress took no action.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-bonus-guard-20161024-snap-story.html

That sucks because it is a State matter.

It should have been resolved by Pete two years ago.

CA is crooked. Many wrongs are blamed on D.C., when the
corruption begins in Sacramento.

[gabosaurus]

I haven't seen anything that lays the blame for this debacle on the state. Everything I have read points the finger at the Pentagon and the California National Guard. The Pentagon saddled recruiters with unrealistic enlistment goals and the Guard used cash incentives to meet them.

[Elessar]

I don't know, Gabby. The command of the National Guard is at state level unless called
up to deploy by the Pentagon.

So the fault appears to be two-fold - State and Federal. None the less, it is a bitter pill
these fine volunteers have to swallow unless someone brings this debacle to
a screeching halt.

[Kathianne]

I'd heard the story, but not details. First look seems to be much more Washington, than CA at fault. One, it's NOT just CA, but throughout the country:

http://blog.theveteranssite.com/takeback-enlistment-bonuses/?utm_source=vet-troops&utm_medium=social-fb&utm_term=20161025&utm_content=link&utm_campaign=takeback-enlistment-bonuses&origin=vet_troops_social_fb_link_takeback-enlistment-bonuses_20161025


POSTED <time itemprop="datePublished" datetime="2016-10-24T14:26:02+00:00" style="color: rgb(196, 196, 196); font-family: &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: small; letter-spacing: 2px; text-transform: uppercase; box-sizing: border-box;">1 DAY AGO</time> BY JACOB H.Thousands Of Veterans Being Forced To Repay Enlistment BonusesThousands of soldiers who enlisted during the height of the war efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan a decade ago we given enlistment bonuses of $15,000 or more, due to the shortage of soldiers at the time. The government is now saying that those bonuses should not have been given – so they are coming after the soldiers who risked their lives, many serving multiple tours in the Middle East, to collect the money. To those soldiers, it is at best a slap in the face and disrespect of their service to their country, and at worst it is destroying the lives of veterans and their families.


The Pentagon’s National Guard Bureau, which oversees state Guard organizations, has already sent out letters to nearly 10,000 soldiers in California alone demanding repayment of $15,000, $20,000, or more and threatening collection, liens, garnished wages, and other penalties if the soldiers fail to repay the money. However, many of those soldiers are fighting back, saying they lived up to their end of the contract, and they are not the ones who made a mistake.


The overpayments that the Pentagon is now collecting from soldiers who enlisted during the height of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are mostly re-enlistment bonuses of $15-20,000, but also include college tuition payments and other incentives and bonuses given to those soldiers. The overpayments took place in every state, the Pentagon admits, but the L.A. Times recently (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-national-guard-bonus-20161020-snap-story.html) covered the controversy since California has the largest National Guard of any state.

...

[Elessar]

Update:

The fault lays within the CA NG leadership. Pete Wilson as governor should have had oversight:

http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/10/24/thousands-california-national-guard-soldiers-forced-repay-enlistment-bonuses

[Kathianne]

Update:

The fault lays within the CA NG leadership. Pete Wilson as governor should have had oversight:

http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/10/24/thousands-california-national-guard-soldiers-forced-repay-enlistment-bonuses

I'm not getting what you're saying, as the Pentagon appears to be leading this, according to both your link and mine. From the one I posted, I think a vet's site, it seems this is going on all over the country, but CA picked up attention, via a LA Times story?

[Elessar]

I'm not getting what you're saying, as the Pentagon appears to be leading this, according to both your link and mine. From the one I posted, I think a vet's site, it seems this is going on all over the country, but CA picked up attention, via a LA Times story?

Tell me, and us, why all other 49 states that sent NG folks overseas are not implicated?

It makes no sense at all. If CA is the only one to be brought up, then the liability is strictly
on them. Pete Wilson is in charge, as governor, of the National Guard in that state. The burden
is on CA, yet somewhat less on DC.

CA is crooked. Caught in an error, they will whine and blame 'Big Daddy' - DC, for their screw-up.
Even Fienstine and Boxer are in shock at this. And they are both howling liberals in many cases.

[Kathianne]

Tell me, and us, why all other 49 states that sent NG folks overseas are not implicated?

It makes no sense at all. If CA is the only one to be brought up, then the liability is strictly
on them. Pete Wilson is in charge, as governor, of the National Guard in that state. The burden
is on CA, yet somewhat less on DC.

CA is crooked. Caught in an error, they will whine and blame 'Big Daddy' - DC, for their screw-up.
Even Fienstine and Boxer are in shock at this. And they are both howling liberals in many cases.

Posted this earlier. CA has the most, but all states have members that are affected:

http://blog.theveteranssite.com/takeback-enlistment-bonuses/?utm_source=vet-troops&utm_medium=social-fb&utm_term=20161025&utm_content=link&utm_campaign=takeback-enlistment-bonuses&origin=vet_troops_social_fb_link_takeback-enlistment-bonuses_20161025


...The Pentagon’s National Guard Bureau, which oversees state Guard organizations, has already sent out letters to nearly 10,000 soldiers in California alone

...The overpayments took place in every state, the Pentagon admits, but the L.A. Times recently (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-national-guard-bonus-20161020-snap-story.html) covered the controversy since California has the largest National Guard of any state...

[Elessar]

From a retired Senior Chief USCG Boatswains Mate:

Go to: thepetitionsite.com
Chief Mac



They put on a uniform to protect our country and thr Commander in Chief puts his hand in
their pockets. God help America

[gabosaurus]

At last, decency and common sense prevails. For now.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-defense-chief-pentagon-repayments-20161026-story.html

Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter on Wednesday ordered the Pentagon to suspend efforts to claw back enlistment bonuses improperly given to thousands of California National Guard members during the height of the Iraq war.

[Gunny]

I haven't seen anything that lays the blame for this debacle on the state. Everything I have read points the finger at the Pentagon and the California National Guard. The Pentagon saddled recruiters with unrealistic enlistment goals and the Guard used cash incentives to meet them.

Sorry. You are wrong. Again. The Guard belongs to the state and is enlisted by the state to serve the state. For the Fed to usurp the State's authority and federalize Guard troops, the Feds say so and the State has no recourse. If you'd tryiny sticking to the facts and topic instead of your usual politicizing you might learn something.

No military person is going to agree with this. It's a State Action of which the Commander in Chief is the State Governor. The Pentagon does not set the Guard recruiting mission, The Army does not set the Guard recruiting mission. If your Guard unit is Fwderalized for temporary active duty with the Army, the are STILL in the Guard. They are NOT interchangeable parts. If a Guarsman wants to be in the Army, he has to join it like everyone else.

There's nothing about your argument that is even close to correct.

[jimnyc]

Sorry. You are wrong. Again.

Use a program like I do that allows for many things to be copied into your 'clipboard' at once. This way you can be prepared at a moments notice to "paste" what your wrote above. It gets tiring writing that stuff to the same person over and over and over. :)

[Gunny]

At last, decency and common sense prevails. For now.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-defense-chief-pentagon-repayments-20161026-story.html

Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter on Wednesday ordered the Pentagon to suspend efforts to claw back enlistment bonuses improperly given to thousands of California National Guard members during the height of the Iraq war.

There is no common sense here except for whoever realized this attempted money grab and blame-shrt wouldn't work. Wilson's a moron. Surprised he isn't Hillary's running mate. Peas in a pod.

[Elessar]

At last, decency and common sense prevails. For now.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-defense-chief-pentagon-repayments-20161026-story.html

Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter on Wednesday ordered the Pentagon to suspend efforts to claw back enlistment bonuses improperly given to thousands of California National Guard members during the height of the Iraq war.

Super news none the less, Gabby!:clap:

Our citizen soldiers should not be held liable for the NG's and DC's screwup!

[Elessar]

Sorry. You are wrong. Again. The Guard belongs to the state and is enlisted by the state to serve the state. For the Fed to usurp the State's authority and federalize Guard troops, the Feds say so and the State has no recourse. If you'd tryiny sticking to the facts and topic instead of your usual politicizing you might learn something.

No military person is going to agree with this. It's a State Action of which the Commander in Chief is the State Governor. The Pentagon does not set the Guard recruiting mission, The Army does not set the Guard recruiting mission. If your Guard unit is Fwderalized for temporary active duty with the Army, the are STILL in the Guard. They are NOT interchangeable parts. If a Guarsman wants to be in the Army, he has to join it like everyone else.

There's nothing about your argument that is even close to correct.

Thanks Partner. You explained it better than I was able to. And you are completely correct!:beer:

[Kathianne]

Thanks Partner. You explained it better than I was able to. And you are completely correct!:beer:

So, who pays the reserves?

[Elessar]

So, who pays the reserves?

Fully Federal. They are an arm of the Active Duty Branch, not state level.

[Kathianne]

Fully Federal. They are an arm of the Active Duty Branch, not state level.

Ok, how is it that all the states are having this problem, identified by the Pentagon, ordered to be repaid by the Pentagon, stopped by the Secretary of Defense, yet it's CA at fault?

I'm just curious how this works.

[Gunny]

So, who pays the reserves?

Here's part of the confusion. The US Army Reserve belongs to the US Army. It is what it says. A US Army unit in reserve. It is funded by the Army.

National Guardsmen are not Reservists, nor in the Reserve. The Guard is the State Militia.

The Army HAS blurred the lines at times; especially, when they started federalizing Guard Units for temp duty with the Regular Army. They also can find those units once federalized for specific periods of time and missions.

The funding for enlistment in the Guard comes from the State budget, regardless how the state comes by it. Guard bonuses are paid by the state.

[Kathianne]

Here's part of the confusion. The US Army Reserve belongs to the US Army. It is what it says. A US Army unit in reserve. It is funded by the Army.

National Guardsmen are not Reservists, nor in the Reserve. The Guard is the State Militia.

The Army HAS blurred the lines at times; especially, when they started federalizing Guard Units for temp duty with the Regular Army. They also can find those units once federalized for specific periods of time and missions.

The funding for enlistment in the Guard comes from the State budget, regardless how the state comes by it. Guard bonuses are paid by the state.

BUT, it's the Pentagon that is calling in the bonuses, until they put a stop to it today. So how does it fall on CA? Especially in light of all the states having the same problem? It seems CA wanted to put a stop to theirs, but they don't have the power, it's the Fed.

[Elessar]

Ok, how is it that all the states are having this problem, identified by the Pentagon, ordered to be repaid by the Pentagon, stopped by the Secretary of Defense, yet it's CA at fault?

I'm just curious how this works.
Gunny got it below! More familiar with the correct wording than I am.
I just know the Guard is State owned and run unless called up, in which point the Pentagon
will augment them.

I've been saying that all along....Gunny is a bit better at this than I am.

[Kathianne]

@Gunny (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=30) got it below! More familiar with the correct wording than I am.
I just know the Guard is State owned and run unless called up, in which point the Pentagon
will augment them.

I've been saying that all along....Gunny is a bit better at this than I am.

I didn't think either of you are bad/wrong/whatever. I'm more curious why it's being called 'state' when the state seems to not be alone on the problem-all the states have the same problem. They do not appear to have the power to stop the action, as they are saying that the feds have that control and indeed today the Sec of Defense said to 'stop' the collections.

[Gunny]

@Gunny (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=30) got it below! More familiar with the correct wording than I am.
I just know the Guard is State owned and run unless called up, in which point the Pentagon
will augment them.

I've been saying that all along....Gunny is a bit better at this than I am.

My brother is an Army Recruiting Officer. ;)

[Elessar]

My brother is an Army Recruiting Officer. ;)

Cool! Then you have probably got some non-Jar Head tales to tell!:laugh:

[Elessar]

I didn't think either of you are bad/wrong/whatever. I'm more curious why it's being called 'state' when the state seems to not be alone on the problem-all the states have the same problem. They do not appear to have the power to stop the action, as they are saying that the feds have that control and indeed today the Sec of Defense said to 'stop' the collections.

It's complicated. The Guard is State funded, period. If the Pentagon calls them up to deploy, it shifts to the Fed
for funding. At least that is how I understand it.

Bottom line is that they recruited and extended Guard members over incentives, then want to pull them
back....State level..... Pentagon just said NO! Fault lies on the state Guard and not the individuals.

Correct me if I am wrong, Gunny.
'

[Gunny]

I didn't think either of you are bad/wrong/whatever. I'm more curious why it's being called 'state' when the state seems to not be alone on the problem-all the states have the same problem. They do not appear to have the power to stop the action, as they are saying that the feds have that control and indeed today the Sec of Defense said to 'stop' the collections.

A separate issue. I don't think the Federal government should be allowed to force Guardsmen into regular Army roles. It's not what they sign up for. I have a like opinion of US troops being farmed out to the UN. People were refusing to go in the 90s. I agree with their stance. I didn't join the Corps to wear a baby blue helmet and serve a French commander under someone else's flag.

The Fed gets around everything it wants to. The 10 Amendment went out the window with Lincoln.

Specifically how the states and Feds screwed the pooch on this one is anyone's guess. Not like they're going to tell us. I'd guess a lot of robbing Peter to pay Paul. It's probably worse than it sounds.

[Kathianne]

A separate issue. I don't think the Federal government should be allowed to force Guardsmen into regular Army roles. It's not what they sign up for. I have a like opinion of US troops being farmed out to the UN. People were refusing to go in the 90s. I agree with their stance. I didn't join the Corps to wear a baby blue helmet and serve a French commander under someone else's flag.

The Fed gets around everything it wants to. The 10 Amendment went out the window with Lincoln.

Specifically how the states and Feds screwed the pooch on this one is anyone's guess. Not like they're going to tell us. I'd guess a lot of robbing Peter to pay Paul. It's probably worse than it sounds.

The argument that the Fed is in things it doesn't belong in, well no argument here.

Still, what one wishes and what is are two different things. Elessar said that it was CA screwing up, I'm just trying to figure out why he thought so. He said earlier, you explained it better. I understand what you were saying, but not seeing evidence of it being the case in THIS instance.