Democracy has come to Ukraine.

[ruslanbag43]

Hello.
I wanted to introduce you to an episode of modern Ukraine, like is unlikely to show the Western media, so to whom it may be interesting.
I have taken the source from blogger Anatoly Sharia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Shariy
The video consists of three parts, but focus more on the first part. And so...

In the first part of the video filmed by the voting members in one Ukrainian town, raised the question about the allocation of municipal land for the Kyiv of the Patriarchal Church. In the hall there are representatives of the Church and activists of the Right Sector https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector battalion Azov https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

I want to remind you that the organization the Right Sector and the armed formation of the battalion Azov (this is not a police structure and not a division of the army of Ukraine) accused of several crimes, and the organizations themselves unconcealed associate themselves with Nazism...

And again video. The vote on the allocation of land to the Church is successful, Anatoly Shary is commented with sarcasm. And immediately the question is raised about the allocation of another plot of land to the Church... members vote... and the decision is negative, do not allocate land. Then begins the most interesting part of the episode, "activists" the Right Sector and Azov are beginning to demand a raise of hands of those MPs who voted against... Yes, folks, the members of which are accused of crimes, including the military, are beginning to demand from deputies of recognition in his choice. Then begin to chant "Shame," blogger Shary focuses on what is the priest chanting... for Ukraine and Russia is not quite normal when a Minister of the Church chanting something to the political debate. And then "activists" start demanding from deputies to vote again... everyone here is clear that the MPs won't come out until you need the Right Sector and Azov result.
Of course MPs want to live and vote as they are required people who in principle should be in jail.
And like today in Ukraine is everywhere, the kind of democracy brought by the West.
The other two parts are the video is about the stupid meeting, where the measure of one of Ukrainian cities does not support the local population at the meeting and he pretends like everything is fine. And the third part of this video with the labour exchange, which shows wages, which fluctuate from $ 50 to $ 100 per month for 8-hour workday, a five-day working week.

In fact, the video itself https://youtu.be/TiUh1CCUJvE

[Drummond]

Hello.
I wanted to introduce you to an episode of modern Ukraine, like is unlikely to show the Western media, so to whom it may be interesting.
I have taken the source from blogger Anatoly Sharia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Shariy
The video consists of three parts, but focus more on the first part. And so...

In the first part of the video filmed by the voting members in one Ukrainian town, raised the question about the allocation of municipal land for the Kyiv of the Patriarchal Church. In the hall there are representatives of the Church and activists of the Right Sector https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector battalion Azov https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

I want to remind you that the organization the Right Sector and the armed formation of the battalion Azov (this is not a police structure and not a division of the army of Ukraine) accused of several crimes, and the organizations themselves unconcealed associate themselves with Nazism...

And again video. The vote on the allocation of land to the Church is successful, Anatoly Shary is commented with sarcasm. And immediately the question is raised about the allocation of another plot of land to the Church... members vote... and the decision is negative, do not allocate land. Then begins the most interesting part of the episode, "activists" the Right Sector and Azov are beginning to demand a raise of hands of those MPs who voted against... Yes, folks, the members of which are accused of crimes, including the military, are beginning to demand from deputies of recognition in his choice. Then begin to chant "Shame," blogger Shary focuses on what is the priest chanting... for Ukraine and Russia is not quite normal when a Minister of the Church chanting something to the political debate. And then "activists" start demanding from deputies to vote again... everyone here is clear that the MPs won't come out until you need the Right Sector and Azov result.
Of course MPs want to live and vote as they are required people who in principle should be in jail.
And like today in Ukraine is everywhere, the kind of democracy brought by the West.
The other two parts are the video is about the stupid meeting, where the measure of one of Ukrainian cities does not support the local population at the meeting and he pretends like everything is fine. And the third part of this video with the labour exchange, which shows wages, which fluctuate from $ 50 to $ 100 per month for 8-hour workday, a five-day working week.

In fact, the video itself https://youtu.be/TiUh1CCUJvE

Some anti-Ukrainian propaganda ? 'Thanks' ...

You've taken care to try and demomise, in your account, those forces which have taken an anti-Russian position. But the truth is that Ukraine has a long-term fight on its hands to remain free of Russian domination.

Evidently, annexing Crimea wasn't enough .. was it ?

Here's a display of the spirit of freedom still existing in Ukraine today, in noble defiance of the threat ranged against it. Perhaps you'll find it inspiring ?

.... Well ... maybe not (?) ....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANHMtnbXKzM

[Drummond]

Crimea's fate, following Russia's annexation of it .....

http://www.epc.eu/documents/uploads/pub_5432_crimea_one_year_after_russian_annexation. pdf


Life on the Peninsula is increasingly difficult. Prices, along with unemployment have risen. The banking sector is paralysed with international investors long gone. While pensioners, some 500.000 people, have seen their pensions increase, many residents struggle to make ends meet. An embargo on any goods originating from Crimea, unless accompanied by a certificate of origin from the Ukrainian authorities, has been imposed, and trade and investment restrictions are in place. Russia has illegally taken control over more than 400 Ukrainian enterprises and seized some 18 onshore and offshore hydrocarbon fields. In 2013, Ukraine signed exploration and production agreements for large areas of Crimea's eastern and western coast with a number of international energy giants including eni, EDF, ExxonMobil and Royal Dutch Shell.

The tourism sector in particular has been badly hit. Prior to annexation Crimea received some six million tourists annually. 60% came from Ukraine. Russians amounted to some 30%, with the remainder being mainly passengers from international cruise liners docking at the Peninsula. According to the Crimean authorities tourist numbers more than halved in 2014, despite the Russian government launching a programme promoting tourism. The economic impact of sanctions, the drop in oil price and subsequent devaluation of the Ruble has made Russians more cautious about spending money. Furthermore, other destinations, in particular Turkey and Egypt, are more popular – and often cheaper – than Crimea.

While Crimea remains dependent on water and electricity from Ukraine, there are frequent blackouts and disruptions.

The closure of the North Crimean Canal, the main irrigation source for Crimea's interior dry steppe lands, has adversely affected agriculture, with numerous crops failing. Crimeans hope that the construction of a bridge connecting Crimea to Russia across the Strait of Kerch will bring an economic upturn, although it is not due to be completed before 2019. Furthermore, the economic downturn in Russia means there are less employment opportunities for seasonal workers. While Putin originally pledged $18 billion for development, most of that money is yet to be seen. Instead Crimea has witnessed a huge influx of administrative and security personnel from Russia, along with a consolidated and enlarged Russian military presence.

Erosion of human rights

According to UNDP some 20.000 people have left Crimea for mainland Ukraine. While this is partly a consequence of the worsening economic situation, it is also a result of the deteriorating human rights situation, with a harsh crackdown on voices of dissent under way.

In a statement marking the one year anniversary of Crimea's annexation, Federica Mogherini, High Representative of the EU for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy stated that she felt "deep concern at the deterioration of the human rights situation in the Crimean peninsula, including the denial of free speech and the persecution of persons belonging to minorities". The United Nations Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine has noted a continuation of worrying trends, including cases of enforced disappearances, arbitrary detentions, violence and ill-treatment committed by the so-called Crimean self-defence forces, often targeting journalists, human rights defenders and political opponents,. According to Human Rights Watch, "media freedom is under siege in Crimea". All Ukrainian-language printed media and regional or municipal media in Ukrainian are closed, the use of Ukrainian websites is banned and only one Ukrainian TV programme is available for Crimean residents. Most independent or critical journalists and activists have left for mainland Ukraine. Those who remain are constantly at risk of being attacked or worse, especially if they are perceived as pro-Ukraine.

Do you feel proud of Russia's hand in all this, Ruslanbag ? Was the annexation, in your view, 'a job well done' .. ?

[ruslanbag43]

Some anti-Ukrainian propaganda ? 'Thanks' ...

You've taken care to try and demomise, in your account, those forces which have taken an anti-Russian position. But the truth is that Ukraine has a long-term fight on its hands to remain free of Russian domination.

Evidently, annexing Crimea wasn't enough .. was it ?

Here's a display of the spirit of freedom still existing in Ukraine today, in noble defiance of the threat ranged against it. Perhaps you'll find it inspiring ?

.... Well ... maybe not (?)
You know... very amusing to read accusations of propaganda, for quite objective information.
I have attached links to the sources... Wikipedia is quite reputable resource.
In response heard accusations, accusations... you want to say that I'm lying? Hmm.

I was very surprised when in a serious and adult discussion, people begin to "pour water", to write about freedom, inspiration songs... it's weird in my opinion.

[ruslanbag43]

Crimea's fate, following Russia's annexation of it .....

http://www.epc.eu/documents/uploads/pub_5432_crimea_one_year_after_russian_annexation. pdf


It's a bit like facts... that's just not true.
Most of this information and numbers taken from the ceiling and have no relation to reality.
Prices for food, this... fun in the 21st century is stupid to believe a newspaper article and check it out
Look, just hammer into a search engine (in Russian of course) "the price of Chicken in Kiev/Sevastopol"
and here are the links
http://krym.kupiprodai.ru/produkt/sevastopol_myaso_optom_kuricu_85128
http://kiev.prom.ua/p315370706-tushka-kur-ohol.html
Prices in rubles and hryvnias, I hope the administration don't think this is spam... and with any Converter, you will see that 45 hryvnias and 110 rubles, which is about 1.7 USD. That is, prices are the same.
However, the difference is that Ukraine is a country in technical default and rasskazy that people are leaving Crimea due to the fact that there is worse conditions than in Ukraine... well, it's not serious.
Regarding the violation of rights and "of missing persons", I beg to give the facts of specific people whose rights are violated and the fact that they ignore, and most importantly, who is gone... let me explain, in the Russian media are already laughing at these disappearances, because of specific people I can not name the Ukrainian media

[Drummond]

You know... very amusing to read accusations of propaganda, for quite objective information.
I have attached links to the sources... Wikipedia is quite reputable resource.
In response heard accusations, accusations... you want to say that I'm lying? Hmm.

I was very surprised when in a serious and adult discussion, people begin to "pour water", to write about freedom, inspiration songs... it's weird in my opinion.

You're not necessarily lying. You could be completely convinced of the worth of propaganda your Russian State has fed you for many years.

For example: how silent has your media been about the Ukrainian Holocaust, under Stalin ? How fondly, I wonder, do Russians look back, even now, upon the Stalin era ? See ...

http://www.faminegenocide.com/resources/unknown.html


In 1932, Soviet leader Josef Stalin unleashed genocide in Ukraine. Stalin determined to force Ukraine's millions of independent farmers - called kulaks - into collectivized Soviet agriculture, and to crush Ukraine's growing spirit of nationalism.

Faced by resistance to collectivization, Stalin unleashed terror and dispatched 25,000 fanatical young party militants from Moscow - earlier versions of Mao's Red Guards - to force 10 million Ukrainian peasants into collective farms. Secret police units of OGPU began selective executions of recalcitrant farmers.

When Stalin's red guards failed to make a dent in this immense number, OGPU was ordered to begin mass executions. But there were simply not enough Chekists (secret police) to kill so many people, so Stalin decided to replace bullets with a much cheaper medium of death - mass starvation.

All seed stocks, grain, silage and farm animals were confiscated from Ukraine's farms. (Ethiopia's Communist dictator Mengistu Haile Marjam used the same method in the 1970s to force collectivization: the resulting famine cased one million deaths.)

OGPU agents and Red Army troops sealed all roads and rail lines. Nothing came in or out of Ukraine. Farms were searched and looted of food and fuel. Ukrainians quickly began to die of hunger, cold and sickness.

When OGPU failed to meet weekly execution quotas, Stalin sent henchman Lazar Kaganovitch to destroy Ukrainian resistance. Kaganovitch, the Soviet Eichmann, made quota, shooting 10,000 Ukrainians weekly. Eighty percent of all Ukrainian intellectuals were executed. A Ukrainian party member named Nikita Khruschchev helped supervise the slaughter.

During the bitter winter of 1932-33, mass starvation created by Kaganovitch and 0GPU hit full force. Ukrainians ate their pets, boots and belts, plus bark and roots. Some parents even ate infant children.

The precise number of Ukrainians murdered by Stalin's custom-made famine and Cheka firing squads remains unknown to this day. The KGB's archives, and recent work by Russian historians, show at least seven million died. Ukrainian historians put the figure at nine million, or higher. Twenty-five percent of Ukraine's population was exterminated.

Millions of victims

Six million other farmers across the USSR were starved or shot during collectivization. Stalin told Winston Churchill he liquidated 10 million peasants during the 1930s. Add mass executions by the Cheka in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania; the genocide of three million Muslims in the USSR; massacres of Cossacks and Volga Germans and Soviet industrial genocide accounted for at least 40 million victims, not including 20 million war dead.

Kaganovitch and many senior OGPU officers (later, NKVD) were Jewish. The predominance of Jews among Bolshevik leaders, and the frightful crimes and cruelty inflicted by Stalin's Cheka on Ukraine, the Baltic states and Poland, led the victims of Red Terror to blame the Jewish people for both communism and their suffering. As a direct result, during the subsequent Nazi occupation of Eastern Europe, the region's innocent Jews became the target of ferocious revenge by Ukrainians, Balts and Poles.

While the world is by now fully aware of the destruction of Europe's Jews by the Nazis, the story of the numerically larger holocaust in Ukraine has been suppressed, or ignored. Ukraine's genocide occurred 8-9 years before Hitler began the Jewish Holocaust, and was committed, unlike Nazi crimes, before the world's gaze. But Stalin's murder of millions was simply denied, or concealed by a left-wing conspiracy of silence that continues to this day.

Is it any wonder that Ukraine is desperate to never be ruled by Russia again ???

As for Wikipedia, that so many people can add what they like to the site is well known. It's a useful tool, to be sure, but it isn't unassailably accurate in everything.

From your post, you say:


Ukraine is a country in technical default and rasskazy that people are leaving Crimea due to the fact that there is worse conditions than in Ukraine... well, it's not serious.
Here's the point. Russia would prefer to take over Ukraine in its entirety, and of course it has the military might to do it by force. But what would that say to the world about the untrustworthiness and belligerence of Putin, were that to be ordered ? No ... since Ukraine has trouble paying its way, I believe Putin is waiting for Ukraine to implode of its own accord, so that then, 'as a humanitarian gesture', they can then walk in and start to rule it directly.

Crimea has been annexed. It's well known that Russian influence extends, via rebel activity, in the east of the country. The Russian Administration is waiting for deterioration to develop, to move yet further.

I'm sorry to learn that you regard a crackdown on freedoms and humanitarian violations in Crimea as 'not serious', following the annexation. Because you have total and blind faith in an aggressor regime led by Putin ? Or because you really don't care about such things ? YOU tell ME.

[ruslanbag43]

You're not necessarily lying. You could be completely convinced of the worth of propaganda your Russian State has fed you for many years.
Like there is an American expression - facepalm.
And he belongs here. I opened the topic, about the violation of democracy, a specific video, a specific reference to the participants, more precisely on the organization... and in response I begin to tell about Crimea, hunger 30 years... is the norm of communication in America? What in our discussion of Crimea, other then the hunger and the repression of Stalin? As you have in mind these things are connected?
View what is open theme, and you forgot...

[ruslanbag43]

For example: how silent has your media been about the Ukrainian Holocaust, under Stalin ? How fondly, I wonder, do Russians look back, even now, upon the Stalin era ? See ...
But still, let's see... I was very amused by your accusing me of propaganda, because you do do.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932-33
That is, you don't know, have not studied the issue but have got to say something. The famine was in all the USSR not only in Ukraine but also in Central regions, in the Caucasus, in Kazakhstan, I don't know what you have education, but apparently you do not know that the beginning of 30 years, the Great Depression... a famine where there was a lot on the planet.
And all these stories about the bloody genocide of the Ukrainians, not more than fraasii, half the party leadership in Moscow consisted of Ukrainians.

[ruslanbag43]

I'm sorry to learn that you regard a crackdown on freedoms and humanitarian violations in Crimea as 'not serious', following the annexation. Because you have total and blind faith in an aggressor regime led by Putin ? Or because you really don't care about such things ? YOU tell ME.[/COLOR]I am also very sorry that you believe any writings do not have the facts.
I hear accusations about violations of human rights in the Crimea for the first time. Only I see no facts, no specifics, whose rights have been violated? Specific people can call?
And most importantly, violation of the rights of citizens... Yes, I can and USA to blame. It happens everywhere, it's symbolic of life, people, officials, police officers can violate the rights of citizens. Now of course you can tell that USA is the country of elves, and no violations of citizens ' rights is not there... I am very amused.
The question is, what makes the state mechanism in case of violation of the rights of citizens. What you can tell about the violation of citizens ' rights in Crimea, but the fact that this was followed by the trial and the culprit was punished... you about this tactfully keep silence.

[Drummond]

I am also very sorry that you believe any writings do not have the facts.
I hear accusations about violations of human rights in the Crimea for the first time. Only I see no facts, no specifics, whose rights have been violated? Specific people can call?
And most importantly, violation of the rights of citizens... Yes, I can and USA to blame. It happens everywhere, it's symbolic of life, people, officials, police officers can violate the rights of citizens. Now of course you can tell that USA is the country of elves, and no violations of citizens ' rights is not there... I am very amused.
The question is, what makes the state mechanism in case of violation of the rights of citizens. What you can tell about the violation of citizens ' rights in Crimea, but the fact that this was followed by the trial and the culprit was punished... you about this tactfully keep silence.

Yes - I'm sure of that. The very first time anyone's allowed you to know how badly Crimean people are faring under Russian domination, eh ? Ruslanbag, repressive dictatorships invariably do keep their people in the dark about outrages they commit, because, of course, they CAN, and MUST.

You resist such an account as the one I've posted because, like it or not, you've been brainwashed to follow a preferred Party line. You WILL reject truth that it is 'preferred' you do not believe. Such is the nature of propaganda.

However ... you have some respect for Wikipedia ? Very well. See this ....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation


On 27 February masked Russian troops without insignia took over the Supreme Council of Crimea, and captured strategic sites across Crimea, which led to the installation of the pro-Russian Aksyonov government in Crimea and the declaration of Crimea's independence.

Ukraine considers the annexation to be a violation of international law and agreements by Russia, including Agreement on Establishing the Commonwealth of Independent States in 1991, Helsinki Accords, Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons of 1994 and Treaty on friendship, cooperation and partnership between the Russian Federation and Ukraine. The event was condemned by many world leaders as an illegal annexation of Ukrainian territory, in violation of the 1994 Budapest Memorandum on sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine, signed by Russia. It led to the other members of the then G8 suspending Russia from the group, then introducing the first round of sanctions against the country. The United Nations General Assembly also rejected the vote and annexation, adopting a non-binding resolution affirming the "territorial integrity of Ukraine within its internationally recognised borders".

Following a Crimean referendum, held on 16 March 2014, in which separation was favoured by a large majority of voters, the UN resolution also "underscores that the referendum having no validity, cannot form the basis for any alteration of the status of [Crimea]." The resolution calls upon all States and international organizations not to recognize or to imply the recognition of Russia's annexation.

Let me guess. You also knew nothing about any of that, either, until 'right now'. Yes ?

Russia, especially during its USSR days, has a history of heavy-handed iron-fist rule of satellite States. Certainly so under Stalin, whose rule killed millions of people. Oh, and what do Russian history books tell you about the treatment of countries such as Hungary, in 1956 ? Czechoslovakia, in 1968 ? The Afghanistan invasion, in 1980 (do you notice the curious twelve year gaps between each ??). Will you dismiss reports of Russian jack-bootedness such as the West knew about each of those examples, as 'propaganda', maybe things that never happened ?

Check out - if you genuinely DON'T know what I'm talking about - references to each on the Internet. I hope your authorities don't ban access to such historical accounts, and that you CAN do research.

The fact is this .. Russia has a long history of repressive and dictatorial treatment of countries under its influence. Crimean annexation is just the latest example to follow a VERY well known and established pattern of abuse from Russia. You may dismiss it all as propagandist pap, and presumably will. More frighteningly, it's even possible that you think you're justified in doing that !!!

BUT YOU ARE NOT.

And we in the West know of Russia's many abuses. It's common knowledge. You will not succeed in convincing us we're wrong.

One final point, for clarification. You're mistaken in thinking I'm American. I am British, posting from the UK ...