9/11: Freedom Attacked - Freedom Defended

[El Veto-Voter]

"Our Freedom" Defended (after 9/11)

In solemn memory of the devastation of the 9/11 attacks, of 15 years ago, I thought it proper to start a thread on its effects on the world, society, and especially "Our Freedom".

Immediately after the 911 attacks, President GW Bush said that "our freedom" had been attacked and that "our freedom" would be defended.

In order to defend our freedom he then took it away and locked it up tight (The Patriot Act).

Freedom is not like gold. You can't protect it in a vault.

[Abbey Marie]

With all the incredible changes in the world after 9-11, I knew you would solely focus on the Patriot Act. Not biting.

[Elessar]

"Our Freedom" Defended (after 9/11)

In solemn memory of the devastation of the 9/11 attacks, of 15 years ago, I thought it proper to start a thread on its effects on the world, society, and especially "Our Freedom".

Immediately after the 911 attacks, President GW Bush said that "our freedom" had been attacked and that "our freedom" would be defended.

In order to defend our freedom he then took it away and locked it up tight (The Patriot Act).

Freedom is not like gold. You can't protect it in a vault.

You are really blind. I'll wager you never served in the military, police, fire, or first responders.

Patriot Act is not in a vault. You know nothing you are speaking of.
You'd best learn your audience. I was Active Duty USCG when 9/11/01 went down.
I rushed into work even though I had just stood weekend duty and it was my day off.
I worked with NYPD and NYFD years before. Best friend's brother was almost killed
responding as a NYFD member.

What were you doing that day? Sucking your thumb? Fucking idiot!

[Elessar]

With all the incredible changes in the world after 9-11, I knew you would solely focus on the Patriot Act. Not biting.

Abbey, I love you to death, but FUCK this TROLL. He / it has no idea under the sun
what we had to go through. I apologize for my language to you, but TROLLs like this
are totally clueless.

[Elessar]

I do not know how many folks on this forum have worked through a mass casualty
or a serious situation. I am guessing there are a few, and the liberal whiners would
hide in the basement and toss shit-balls at those of us who have.

I am sure our Vets have because it is part of the job. The sideline experts only know
how to criticize, yet holding no experience.

[Drummond]

"Our Freedom" Defended (after 9/11)

In solemn memory of the devastation of the 9/11 attacks, of 15 years ago, I thought it proper to start a thread on its effects on the world, society, and especially "Our Freedom".

Immediately after the 911 attacks, President GW Bush said that "our freedom" had been attacked and that "our freedom" would be defended.

In order to defend our freedom he then took it away and locked it up tight (The Patriot Act).

Freedom is not like gold. You can't protect it in a vault.

Elessar's right. You are here to troll. More .. you have a contempt for those who've acted to do what must be done to keep your country safe.

Peacetime conditions are not the same as war conditions .. and undoubtedly, the scum responsible or 9/11 waged their version of war against the US on that day. They've been waging their version of it against the West for a long time.

You attack America's defender in GW Bush. You attack what he instituted to help keep your country secure ... powers implemented which, if they never had existed, would've left America's enemies better off than otherwise.

So there is no spirit of a 'solemn memory' involved, not for you, anyway -- just the need to attack those in power who've used that power for your safety and security. Considering the day you've chosen for your own attack, not to mention the contempt you show in making that choice, would I therefore be fair in assessing you as an enemy of America ?

[Elessar]

True words I saw in a Sunday Comic Strip of all places:

B.C. by Mastroinnni and Hart: "Herosim is Courage Despite Consequence"

[Elessar]

Elessar's right. You are here to troll. More .. you have a contempt for those who've acted to do what must be done to keep your country safe.

Peacetime conditions are not the same as war conditions .. and undoubtedly, the scum responsible or 9/11 waged their version of war against the US on that day. They've been waging their version of it against the West for a long time.

You attack America's defender in GW Bush. You attack what he instituted to help keep your country secure ... powers implemented which, if they never had existed, would've left America's enemies better off than otherwise.

So there is no spirit of a 'solemn memory' involved, not for you, anyway -- just the need to attack those in power who've used that power for your safety and security. Considering the day you've chosen for your own attack, not to mention the contempt you show in making that choice, would I therefore be fair in assessing you as an enemy of America ?

He's is a low-life wimp piece of shit. I get tired of telling idiots like him what GWB did to hike up and secure
our nation better, and was an influence to you Brits and the Canadians as well.

All of Europe has been going through terror attacks since I can remember, back in the 60's
and to the present. This punk has not a bit of a clue.

He's just here to Troll his idiocy and should be either ignored or bashed hard continuously.
I don't ignore!

[jimnyc]

I love how some folks talk about all the freedoms that have been taken away from us. Makes me giggle a little at their comical thoughts. And nope, before anyone says it, surely not giggling at any perceived loss of rights, but the lack thereof. Some will cry the same if they had to hear the pledge of allegiance. Those with perception issues can whine and cry together with some Merlot and Ritz for all I care.

[Drummond]

I don't know if anyone's noticed El Veto Voter's avatar in any detail ... but this individual undoubtedly has his agenda ... apparently an anarchic one ? The 'haltvote.com' part of his avatar really does lead to a website of that name (.. so he's advertising it with every post he makes). A troll - without a doubt.

It reminds me a little of Libertarian nonsense.

[Drummond]

He's is a low-life wimp piece of shit. I get tired of telling idiots like him what GWB did to hike up and secure
our nation better, and was an influence to you Brits and the Canadians as well.

All of Europe has been going through terror attacks since I can remember, back in the 60's
and to the present. This punk has not a bit of a clue.

He's just here to Troll his idiocy and should be either ignored or bashed hard continuously.
I don't ignore!:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Totally agree.

GWB has been attacked to such an extent by our Left that today, he's widely regarded as an idiot / warmonger / fanatic (take your pick). BUT ... I for one believe that, though his initial insular-looking Presidency was wrong-headed, 9/11 not only taught him a valuable lesson on that score, but that his reaction to it, his whole approach afterwards, simply cannot be faulted. When tested, he came through it superbly. GWB - in my view - is undoubtedly one of the all-time 'greats' amongst all your Presidents.

Europe, the free world, should've stood firm and uncompromisingly behind him throughout the War on Terror that 9/11 caused. The 'you are with us or, if not, you are against us' approach was exactly on the mark. The world's backsliding after Bush's rallying-call shames all those who didn't respond to it, or shunned it.

[fj1200]

"Our Freedom" Defended (after 9/11)

I'll say this, you've certainly violated some folks safe space around here. ;)

[jimnyc]

I'll say this, you've certainly violated some folks safe space around here. ;)

How so? And where? Folks disagreeing means they need a safe space? If so, you need to add up the liberal space from EVERY school included for yourself.

[fj1200]

How so? And where? Folks disagreeing means they need a safe space? If so, you need to add up the liberal space from EVERY school included for yourself.

1 OP and 10 posts mostly attacking him personally with little attempt at discussing his posit. And there are way to many people needing safe spaces out in the world today.

[Perianne]

1 OP and 10 posts mostly attacking him personally with little attempt at discussing his posit. And there are way to many people needing safe spaces out in the world today.

You frequently attack me and Drummond. But I don't think either of us care.

[fj1200]

You frequently attack me and @Drummond (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=2287). But I don't think either of us care.

Not really. I frequently point out truth. :)

[Perianne]

Not really. I frequently point out truth. :)

I am working on a "truth". To be delivered this week. Then you can be enlightened, sir. Some day you will look back and think "Perianne was right all along". Yep.

[fj1200]

I am working on a "truth". To be delivered this week. Then you can be enlightened, sir. Some day you will look back and think "Perianne was right all along". Yep.

Can't wait. I'm sure it will be riddled with ignorance per usual.

[jimnyc]

1 OP and 10 posts mostly attacking him personally with little attempt at discussing his posit. And there are way to many people needing safe spaces out in the world today.

Not for nothing, but what did you contribute? Perhaps you may have an angle in folks attacking, when instead debating may be the first option. But perhaps sometimes it's best to ignore, or not add to things? IMO, both would serve to add nothing to whatever the intended topic is. They attacked as you say, and you simply did it indirectly.

[fj1200]

Not for nothing, but what did you contribute? Perhaps you may have an angle in folks attacking, when instead debating may be the first option. But perhaps sometimes it's best to ignore, or not add to things? IMO, both would serve to add nothing to whatever the intended topic is. They attacked as you say, and you simply did it indirectly.

Not a thing. Just trying to figure out why folks would rather whine about trolls, a "troll" who merely raised a debate about the PATRIOT Act, than debate.

[jimnyc]

Not a thing. Just trying to figure out why folks would rather whine about trolls, a "troll" who merely raised a debate about the PATRIOT Act, than debate.

Why not just ask that then? Instead of indirectly tossing jabs, and then point out how they tossed jabs instead of responding?

[fj1200]

Why not just ask that then? Instead of indirectly tossing jabs, and then point out how they tossed jabs instead of responding?

I'm sorry that you don't like my approach. Some posters don't like when I ask questions either.

[jimnyc]

I'm sorry that you don't like my approach. Some posters don't like when I ask questions either.

I just don't like YOU! :laugh:

[fj1200]

I just don't like YOU! :laugh:

I can deal with that. :2up:

[Drummond]

You frequently attack me and @Drummond (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=2287). But I don't think either of us care.

Absolutely right, Perianne ... I don't care one jot. Thing of it is .. taking notice of FJ's stuff is an exercise in futility. I tried. I attempted debate a great many times, to only get snide put-downs at every turn.

Of course, it helps if the individual you debate with, debates - and represents himself - with HONESTY.

I never intended to block anybody, ever, on this site. With FJ, though, it ultimately became an inevitability. So even if FJ responds, I'll not see that response. Nor will I care to, of course.

[Abbey Marie]

1 OP and 10 posts mostly attacking him personally with little attempt at discussing his posit. And there are way to many people needing safe spaces out in the world today.

Perhaps you can show us how it's done by replying to his posit.

[aboutime]

fj....because you are nobody important to any of us. Which probably explains why being disliked, as much as you are. Somehow soothes your Misery that oozes from your arrogance.

[Elessar]

Not really. I frequently point out truth. :)

Truth is a term that is relevant to an individual.

Fact is a term that cannot be disputed.

You constantly ignore Fact and whine about your "Truth".

[aboutime]

Truth is a term that is relevant to an individual.

Fact is a term that cannot be disputed.

You constantly ignore Fact and whine about your "Truth".


Elessar. He's right. He often points out HIS truth, just like Obama, and Hillary always do, pointing out their VERSIONS of the truth, they call facts because they REPEAT the lies so often; to them they are true. But their truth can, and has been proven to be Lies.

[Kaimhel]

Elessar. He's right. He often points out HIS truth, just like Obama, and Hillary always do, pointing out their VERSIONS of the truth, they call facts because they REPEAT the lies so often; to them they are true. But their truth can, and has been proven to be Lies.


AMEN!:clap:

[Elessar]

Elessar. He's right. He often points out HIS truth, just like Obama, and Hillary always do, pointing out their VERSIONS of the truth, they call facts because they REPEAT the lies so often; to them they are true. But their truth can, and has been proven to be Lies.

There are a few that trumpet that damn TRUTH word, that cannot accept FACT. Hardheaded and narrow-minded
these TRUTH spoon pounders are.

[Elessar]

Not a thing. Just trying to figure out why folks would rather whine about trolls, a "troll" who merely raised a debate about the PATRIOT Act, than debate.

I just caught this. You show me how to 'debate' on a message forum and I will trade you
beach front property on Mars. I know you meant me, but did not have the balls to mention
me in the open, Troll!

All you do is insult. I can sniff out a Troll in an instant. Your one-liners insult only.

I know more about that Act than you can put of with your one-line insults.

The OP is far off course and an idiot just like you.

Let's see your one-line reply to this?

[fj1200]

I attempted debate a great many times...

:laugh:


Perhaps you can show us how it's done by replying to his posit.

I don't particularly care about this particular posit nor do I expect him to actually debate his position.


Truth is a term that is relevant to an individual.

Fact is a term that cannot be disputed.

You constantly ignore Fact and whine about your "Truth".

FACT: Someone named Johnson said something about Guam.
FACT: That someone was not named Gary Johnson.


There are a few that trumpet that damn TRUTH word, that cannot accept FACT. Hardheaded and narrow-minded
these TRUTH spoon pounders are.

TRUTH: You are, or were subject to the results of your search, ;) ignorant to the facts and loathe to admit it.


I just caught this. You show me how to 'debate' on a message forum and I will trade you
beach front property on Mars. I know you meant me, but did not have the balls to mention
me in the open, Troll!

All you do is insult. I can sniff out a Troll in an instant. Your one-liners insult only.

I know more about that Act than you can put of with your one-line insults.

The OP is far off course and an idiot just like you.

Let's see your one-line reply to this?

If you think it applied only to you then I can't help what you think. Did you whine about his posting and merely call him a troll? Pretty much yes. Simply ignoring him would make him go away faster than a good old fashioned pile on IMO.

As to your challenge, I can easily show you how to debate on a message forum but I don't expect you'd be able to hang in there. :) Now about your own one-line insults. :slap:

[Elessar]

:laugh:

FACT: Someone named Johnson said something about Guam.
FACT: That someone was not named Gary Johnson.

If you think it applied only to you then I can't help what you think. Did you whine about his posting and merely call him a troll? Pretty much yes. Simply ignoring him would make him go away faster than a good old fashioned pile on IMO.

:slap:

#1 I admitted my mistake. You conveniently missed that
#2 I know it applied to me. You missed my points on ignoring.
I'll pile onto an idiot in a heartbeat.

You do your one-liners and run. I won't run nor do I need a bunch of one-sided
cut and paste quotes from off the site like you and Pete try. Mine I show up with
are for information. Yours are to incite.

Are you and Pete in bed together?

[Perianne]

Are you and Pete in bed together?

I used to work with a guy who called annoying people "dog pecker gnats", hahaha. He usually just said DPG. That was probably 20 years ago and I still chuckle about it.

[aboutime]

#1 I admitted my mistake. You conveniently missed that
#2 I know it applied to me. You missed my points on ignoring.
I'll pile onto an idiot in a heartbeat.

You do your one-liners and run. I won't run nor do I need a bunch of one-sided
cut and paste quotes from off the site like you and Pete try. Mine I show up with
are for information. Yours are to incite.

Are you and Pete in bed together?


Elessar. fj and pete reminded me of a remedy for Crabs, from back in the Vietnam days, while I was still young, in the navy. The remedy for both of them..WITH CRABS...of course. Was to hand both of them ICE PICKS, and have them lay on their backs....to do the killing...ONE CRAB at a time!

It may not get rid of the crabs....but both fj, and pete wouldn't be here to bother us ever again!:clap:

[Perianne]

I read one time that a real man rids himself of crabs by using a ball peen hammer.

[Elessar]

I read one time that a real man rids himself of crabs by using a ball peen hammer.

OUCH! Not a fact at all....but never had them!

[fj1200]

#1 I admitted my mistake. You conveniently missed that
#2 I know it applied to me. You missed my points on ignoring.
I'll pile onto an idiot in a heartbeat.

You do your one-liners and run. I won't run nor do I need a bunch of one-sided
cut and paste quotes from off the site like you and Pete try. Mine I show up with
are for information. Yours are to incite.

Are you and Pete in bed together?

1. I saw that you said you were going to search so I might have missed where you admitted your mistake; That would be on me.
2. It applied to anyone who whined about the poster without addressing the subject matter; That applied to you.

You seem to be unable to argue your way out of a wet paper bag.

I don't think Pete has even posted in this thread. :confused:

[El Veto-Voter]

When I was a child, many years ago, I had a little squirrel that I dearly loved. One day in an emergency I accidentally stepped on my little squirrel. Then I didn't have a little squirrel any more.

It seems that whenever there is an emergency, those who love freedom the most, accidentally step on it.

That has been the history of wars and emergencies throughout the ages.

[aboutime]

OUCH! Not a fact at all....but never had them!



I also have heard from many of the veterans who were deployed in Iraq, and Afghanistan, that those NIGHT-TIME Goat lovers get rid of their cases of crabs by planting IED's under their sheets, in their SHORTS.:saluting2:

[GravyBoat]

We're no longer a United States, what we've become is a United Gulag Archipelagos of America, we've become a police state far and away more encroaching and evil than anything the Soviet Union had.

[aboutime]

We're no longer a United States, what we've become is a United Gulag Archipelagos of America, we've become a police state far and away more encroaching and evil than anything the Soviet Union had.


If you believe any part of what you said above. You obviously have never been anywhere oversea's, other than in a uniform that protected you.

Those Democrats have really brainwashed you. Repeating everything so often, you believe it.

[fj1200]

We're no longer a United States, what we've become is a United Gulag Archipelagos of America, we've become a police state far and away more encroaching and evil than anything the Soviet Union had.

Well that's just a hair overstated.

[El Veto-Voter]

I sinecerely thank everybody who tried to make relevant and insightful posts here, everybody who attempted to address the subject matter rationally, and everybody who managed to remain polite and considerate even when frothing at the mouth that such heresies were being expounded in their presence. Your consideration is appreciated.

That said, I wonder if there is anybody who logically disagrees with any of my assertions. So far, no one has given any argument of merit. Certainly, for there to be so much animated antagonism, there must be some sort of rationale, don't you think?

Does anybody disagree that the Patriot Act, instigated by GWB and passed overwhelmingly by both parties, was a serious decline in freedom? If so, how was it not? In what way did it help promote freedom?

Since that was the main contention of my original post, most everything that was not on that subject is just chatter and babble.

Hey, I've got a radical idea. How about trying to actually address the subjects presented?

Maybe we could start a conversation that would have some meaning. Who can tell until we try?

[El Veto-Voter]

I just caught this. You show me how to 'debate' on a message forum and I will trade you
beach front property on Mars. I know you meant me, but did not have the balls to mention
me in the open, Troll!

All you do is insult. I can sniff out a Troll in an instant. Your one-liners insult only.

I know more about that Act than you can put of with your one-line insults.

The OP is far off course and an idiot just like you.

Let's see your one-line reply to this?


Thank you for your reasonable replies, if you have attempted to make any.

I have looked at all youir posts here and have found it difficult to discern any actual statements of fact, logical reasoning, or even an argument against anything said here.

Maybe there is some sore of logic in your series of constant put-downs, but it doesn't lend itself to any sort of understanding that I can tell. Maybe it's only because I am an "idiot", as you say.

Since your code seems indeciferable to me, maybe you would be so kind as to present your logical arguments in plain English, without hiding them behind insults and ad hominems, so that we can actually have a discussion of real issues.

Otherwise, everybody will know who the real troll is -- know what I mean, Vern?

It would be genuilnely interesting to know the stuff you claim to know about the Patriot Act. I have read many parts of it and have found it to be a far-reaching document with many volumes of implemetations and interpretations. Not even the congress-critters who enacted it were privileged to know the entire contents.

So, what sort of security clearances allowed you to gather knowlege that nobody else is allowed, and would it violate your oathes and security clearances to share the truth of it with others?

It would also be enlightening to know why you think GWB is an intellectual. (Sorry, but I have listened to him speak, and he reminds me of kids I taught in special ed.) He may think he loves freedom, but that didn't keep him from stepping on it.

I am certainly glad that none of it is my responsibility. I don't vote. I just follow the show and laugh at all the clowns.

Weep and moan, froth at the mouth, roll on the ground, and continue to believe such stuff matters if that makes you feel good.

I prefer to avoid such hysterics.

Unflappable is reasonable it's the only way for me
To greet each trivial issue with blissful apathy
To live each day the considerate way
Content to stay above the fray
Halt! Vote!

[Drummond]

Thank you for your reasonable replies, if you have attempted to make any.

I have looked at all youir posts here and have found it difficult to discern any actual statements of fact, logical reasoning, or even an argument against anything said here.

Maybe there is some sore of logic in your series of constant put-downs, but it doesn't lend itself to any sort of understanding that I can tell. Maybe it's only because I am an "idiot", as you say.

Since your code seems indeciferable to me, maybe you would be so kind as to present your logical arguments in plain English, without hiding them behind insults and ad hominems, so that we can actually have a discussion of real issues.

Otherwise, everybody will know who the real troll is -- know what I mean, Vern?

It would be genuilnely interesting to know the stuff you claim to know about the Patriot Act. I have read many parts of it and have found it to be a far-reaching document with many volumes of implemetations and interpretations. Not even the congress-critters who enacted it were privileged to know the entire contents.

So, what sort of security clearances allowed you to gather knowlege that nobody else is allowed, and would it violate your oathes and security clearances to share the truth of it with others?

It would also be enlightening to know why you think GWB is an intellectual. (Sorry, but I have listened to him speak, and he reminds me of kids I taught in special ed.) He may think he loves freedom, but that didn't keep him from stepping on it.

I am certainly glad that none of it is my responsibility. I don't vote. I just follow the show and laugh at all the clowns.

Weep and moan, froth at the mouth, roll on the ground, and continue to believe such stuff matters if that makes you feel good.

I prefer to avoid such hysterics.

Unflappable is reasonable it's the only way for me
To greet each trivial issue with blissful apathy
To live each day the considerate way
Content to stay above the fray
Halt! Vote!

Consider these simple points, then.

The Patriot Act isn't applied by criminals. It isn't in existence to do harm to America. What it does is to empower those charged with the safety and security of citizens in America to further that very cause.

If 'freedom' is your concern .. consider the consequences were that Act to not exist. Authorities would not be empowered to act in accordance with it. This in turn gives America's enemies greater freedom to act against you.

Now .. do you contend that America's enemies are freedom loving ? That they act to give greater freedoms to American citizens ? OR, do they do what they do to act against America and all it stands for?

And what do THEY 'stand for', anyway ? Are THEY 'freedom loving' .. ? Yes or no ? Or would they wish, if they ever could, to wipe out the spirit and actuality of the freedom America already has ??

There's a war going on, between the dictatorial, repressive, freedom HATERS in this world, those who see the West as their enemies .. and those societies in the West, such as America, who have values which are freedom loving. In wartime, it just isn't practicable to maintain peacetime conditions. So, you do the best with the reality that exists.

The Patriot Act is a part of that picture. It needs to be.

Or, would you prefer America's enemies to gain a needless, avoidable, advantage instead ?

Let me simply ask you this question. Suppose that the Patriot Act were abolished. What would you replace it with, which would act to serve the security concerns that he Patriot Act already addresses ?

[Or would you just say that your enemies deserve the advantage that removal of the Patriot Act would give them ?]

[fj1200]

Does anybody disagree that the Patriot Act, instigated by GWB and passed overwhelmingly by both parties, was a serious decline in freedom? If so, how was it not? In what way did it help promote freedom?

I'm not sure anyone will disagree that it is a decline in freedom but a "serious decline" should be quantified. I would probably disagree that it's a "serious decline" in its own right, but I would argue that it's more serious because it reinforces the idea that we need big government and there won't be any check against those big government arguments and even that we need to have big government like the TSA protect us and accepting that those big government solutions are necessary with little thought to how well it does its job. When there is no one left to challenge the premise that government is the source of protection and entitlement then it will just continue to grow.