Need a little help with a pole barn I am building.

[KitchenKitten99]

Due to the complexity of my question, googling or youtube isn't much help.

So I am building a 60x120 pole barn (yes... myself, with a little help from hubby and my tractor and a couple contractors for the bigger tasks...)
Anyway, I am building on a grade to help with drainage. I plan on back filling to make up the difference. The holes in the back were drilled a little deeper than I wanted them to be but I had forgotten to tell the guy with the bobcat doing it to go shallow on the back two, which is where the slope goes downwards to.

The concrete pads that were poured are already about 12" thick. They were poured sooner than I intended only because of impending rain that was supposed to last several days so I did it a little early to avoid the holes filling back in from rainwash. I can still add more and I do need to add more. The question is, how much in each?

I used a builder's transit to shoot the grade levels with the stick inside each of the corner holes, and did so length, width, (on the outside) and diagonally (from the appx middle center on the inside). I have drawn these up with the numbers.

So now to bring the concrete bases of those back two, using the numbers I shot and noted, how much more concrete do I need to add to the back two so that the posts come up to the correct height so the posts in back go tall enough? Assume the BARN side is North.

Thanks in advance for any and all help!!
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[Elessar]

I would think cutting back the upslope and the pilings remain
level would work. Granted, not knowing what kind of soil does not help.
Is it clay soil? Sand? Mixed? Is it rocky?

@NightTrain (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=89) is a good one to shoot this question to.

Not being present I would not be much help on-line!

[NightTrain]

I'm somewhat confused as to your measurements, Kitten... your depth is varying on the same hole, are you moving your transit between measurements? You can't move the transit once you start or the previous numbers are meaningless.

We also used a transit to shoot all 12 foundation poles from outside of the building pad, but it doesn't matter where you set the transit up so long as the tripod base isn't moved once you start and is perfectly level. Working from the center is a good place if you only have 4.

We picked the first hole, put a tape measure within view of the transit for the desired elevation -- let's call it 5 feet even -- and rotated the transit to the next pole and marked it at exactly 5' on the transit view and so on for all 12. You're trying to get the holes the same elevation instead of cutting the poles, but the same process would apply.

Pick your first hole on the southern side that has the highest elevation between the two (let's assume it's at the SouthWest corner), get your measurement, then rotate to your SouthEast corner to see how much more you need to make those two level. Then rotate to NorthWest, measure, then rotate NorthEast.

Your transit shows you exactly where the level point is on all holes relative to each other. Measurements should always be taken Center-to-Center.

So if your measurements for SW are 5', that's your number and that won't deviate; that's your target. Then SE comes in at 5'2", then you need 2" more concrete in SE to make it 5'. Then NW comes in at 7', then you need 2' more concrete in that hole, and NE is 7'4", then it gets 2'4" more concrete. At that point your holes will be level with each other and they'll all report 5' even on your transit.

Note that I'm just pulling numbers out of the air here because I don't know what your actual measurements are due to your deviation on your drawings - I'm just explaining the process that I would use.

[Gunny]

I would think cutting back the upslope and the pilings remain
level would work. Granted, not knowing what kind of soil does not help.
Is it clay soil? Sand? Mixed? Is it rocky?

@NightTrain (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=89) is a good one to shoot this question to.

Not being present I would not be much help on-line!

Geez. Did you EVER drop a nickel in him. :laugh2:

If I had to frame something it would like the Hillbilly Bear's shack. I completely agree with the premise of having to be there. I have people ask me electrical questions and I can give you the basics but I have to look something myself to fix it.

[Elessar]

Geez. Did you EVER drop a nickel in him. :laugh2:

If I had to frame something it would like the Hillbilly Bear's shack. I completely agree with the premise of having to be there. I have people ask me electrical questions and I can give you the basics but I have to look something myself to fix it.

Awwww, Sh*t...

He's a big boy and can take it!

[Gunny]

Awwww, Sh*t...

He's a big boy and can take it!

Judging by the size of that post, I'd say so. I'm the lousiest carpenter I know. I just get my 2 cents in, in fun, but if you need framing help you best put me last on the list. :laugh:

[sundaydriver]

If I had to frame something it would like the Hillbilly Bear's shack. I completely agree with the premise of having to be there. I have people ask me electrical questions and I can give you the basics but I have to look something myself to fix it.

Gunny, after a nasty lightening storm last week half of my garage is without power and I'm stuck as to why a blown fuse keeps blowing when replaced. I'll draw a diagram so you can diagnose it and tell me what to do. Thanks!

[NightTrain]

Judging by the size of that post, I'd say so. I'm the lousiest carpenter I know. I just get my 2 cents in, in fun, but if you need framing help you best put me last on the list. :laugh:


I'm no carpenter by any stretch, but I've been a part of many construction projects.

The timing of this problem was perfect because we just did this exact same procedure last week up at the cabin - and I haven't forgotten it yet. Yet.

[Elessar]

I'm no carpenter by any stretch, but I've been a part of many construction projects.

The timing of this problem was perfect because we just did this exact same procedure last week up at the cabin - and I haven't forgotten it yet. Yet.

Well...at least you were helpful!:beer:

[fj1200]

Thanks in advance for any and all help!!

Not sure why it matters. Can't you just set your posts and cut them to the correct height?

[KitchenKitten99]

I'm somewhat confused as to your measurements, Kitten... your depth is varying on the same hole, are you moving your transit between measurements? You can't move the transit once you start or the previous numbers are meaningless.

We also used a transit to shoot all 12 foundation poles from outside of the building pad, but it doesn't matter where you set the transit up so long as the tripod base isn't moved once you start and is perfectly level. Working from the center is a good place if you only have 4.

We picked the first hole, put a tape measure within view of the transit for the desired elevation -- let's call it 5 feet even -- and rotated the transit to the next pole and marked it at exactly 5' on the transit view and so on for all 12. You're trying to get the holes the same elevation instead of cutting the poles, but the same process would apply.

Pick your first hole on the southern side that has the highest elevation between the two (let's assume it's at the SouthWest corner), get your measurement, then rotate to your SouthEast corner to see how much more you need to make those two level. Then rotate to NorthWest, measure, then rotate NorthEast.

Your transit shows you exactly where the level point is on all holes relative to each other. Measurements should always be taken Center-to-Center.

So if your measurements for SW are 5', that's your number and that won't deviate; that's your target. Then SE comes in at 5'2", then you need 2" more concrete in SE to make it 5'. Then NW comes in at 7', then you need 2' more concrete in that hole, and NE is 7'4", then it gets 2'4" more concrete. At that point your holes will be level with each other and they'll all report 5' even on your transit.

Note that I'm just pulling numbers out of the air here because I don't know what your actual measurements are due to your deviation on your drawings - I'm just explaining the process that I would use.


Ok I figured I would need to make more clarifications.

The NW-SE and NE-SW measurements were done from the appx center of the barn as it sits. I did all 4 corners without moving the transit, as I know that is not to be done.

I only did the N-S and E-W as an alternate just to see how much each differs based on the location of the transit, if any. If those won't work, they can be ignored and just focus on the previous, which I separated the drawings, but i went and combined them as shown below, since all were taken on same spot of measurement. I might have been overthinking it with doing the other measurements but I have never done anything like this before so I try to think of everything I can, just because some of this stuff I have had to rent so I have limited time to use the things like the transit, etc.

I can't scrape all this down as I need at least 48" of post in the ground to meet code. I also have all clay that my homestead sits on. 250' bed of it to be exact, lol. At least that is what our well tap is at.

Based on the from-center-to-corners diagram, that lowest back corner post still has to come up another 2.55 ft, if I use the NW corner as the 'key' post, which I am because that is the one that is on the highest point of all 4 corners (at least that is what I was told to do). Is that correct?
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[KitchenKitten99]

Not sure why it matters. Can't you just set your posts and cut them to the correct height?

No because they are tongue/groove to set the trusses on. Plus I have to have a 16' wall height to truss base and the corner (and side) posts are 20' long with 4ft of that needing to be below the ground.

There is no cutting with the corner posts. The sides along the long side are a little less of an issue and I can cut those and make a new notch if I need to but the corner posts have no room for play with that.

[NightTrain]

Ok I figured I would need to make more clarifications.

The NW-SE and NE-SW measurements were done from the appx center of the barn as it sits. I did all 4 corners without moving the transit, as I know that is not to be done.

I only did the N-S and E-W as an alternate just to see how much each differs based on the location of the transit, if any. If those won't work, they can be ignored and just focus on the previous, which I separated the drawings, but i went and combined them as shown below, since all were taken on same spot of measurement. I might have been overthinking it with doing the other measurements but I have never done anything like this before so I try to think of everything I can, just because some of this stuff I have had to rent so I have limited time to use the things like the transit, etc.

I can't scrape all this down as I need at least 48" of post in the ground to meet code. I also have all clay that my homestead sits on. 250' bed of it to be exact, lol. At least that is what our well tap is at.

Based on the from-center-to-corners diagram, that lowest back corner post still has to come up another 2.55 ft, if I use the NW corner as the 'key' post, which I am because that is the one that is on the highest point of all 4 corners (at least that is what I was told to do). Is that correct?
http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9288&stc=1


Ahh, gotcha. The different depths for the same hole threw me.

You are correct, you'll use your NW hole as your target at 4'10" because that's your highest elevation and the others need to all come up to meet that level. Since that's our magic number :

NE would need 11" more inches of concrete to make it 4'10".

SW would need 32.5" more inches of concrete to get 4'10".

SE would need 30.5" more inches of concrete to get 4'10".

Double check my math on that, but I think it's correct. Easier just to break it down into inches IMO, but everyone has their preference.

[KitchenKitten99]

Ahh, gotcha. The different depths threw me.

You are correct, you'll use your NW hole as your target at 4'10" because that's your highest elevation and the others need to all come up to meet that level. Since that's our magic number :

NE would need 11" more inches of concrete to make it 4'10".

SW would need 32.5" more inches of concrete to get 4'10".

SE would need 30.5" more inches of concrete to get 4'10".

Double check my math on that, but I think it's correct. Easier just to break it down into inches IMO, but everyone has their preference.
There is an alternative to adding that much concrete in that the way the posts are, they are 3-2x6 planks bolted together. They are staggered in a way that allows for adding on which is what we had to do with the end gables because the posts only are deliverable in 22ft lengths or less and the ends have 24, 26, 28 and 30 lengths to support the end trusses so we built them out with the instructions.

Would that be ok to do structurally instead? Just because it would be hella faster than pouring 30" of concrete and waiting for it to set and i can do this alone with the help of my tractor instead of waiting 6 hours for hubby to be done with work and help.

[NightTrain]

I think what I'd do just to make sure everything is correct, is to take a survey stake (or even a thin stick) and cut them to the length I listed above for their respective holes, and put them in standing on the concrete you already have poured in the NE, SW & SE holes.

Then just take your tape measure and verify with your transit that all of the holes are reporting the exact same number from the top of the stakes - in this case 4'10" if you haven't moved it. Using concrete is pretty final, so you want to get it perfect on your next pour.

Additionally, using those stakes as an easy visual for when you pour the additional concrete will make that a breeze to get it just right. I'd remove those before the concrete hardens, though, just because.

[NightTrain]

There is an alternative to adding that much concrete in that the way the posts are, they are 3-2x6 planks bolted together. They are staggered in a way that allows for adding on which is what we had to do with the end gables because the posts only are deliverable in 22ft lengths or less and the ends have 24, 26, 28 and 30 lengths to support the end trusses so we built them out with the instructions.

Would that be ok to do structurally instead? Just because it would be hella faster than pouring 30" of concrete and waiting for it to set and i can do this alone with the help of my tractor instead of waiting 6 hours for hubby to be done with work and help.


Are you asking if you can just use three 2x6s bolted together and standing upright on the existing concrete to come up to 4'10" on the other 3 holes?

[NightTrain]

Kitten, I just talked to my brother who is a concrete construction guy.

Definitely need to continue with your concrete to make those level, but there's another problem now.

Because you didn't pour the holes all at once, you've got 2 pours - which in effect means that there is no lateral strength because the 2nd pour will just be sitting on top of your first pour. Think about an earthquake - those 3 foundations could very easily slip off the first pour, especially in light of that huge building that will sway bigtime just because of the size. If that happened, you'll have one massive problem to deal with.

He strongly recommends that you take a hammer drill using a 5/8" bit, drill a hole in the concrete and hammer a 5/8" rebar down the center of your existing holes. Naturally, you're going to want to get your depth of the drilling and the length of the rebar coordinated so that the rebar doesn't protrude up higher than the top where everything is level after you're done at the 4'10".

If the diameter of the holes you dug is greater than 12", he said you should use two 5/8" rebar, or at the least 1/2" rebar about 3" from each other straddling the center of the existing concrete.

Then, once you have your rebar set, just add your 2nd pour of concrete to the correct depth and your foundation will be good to go.

Also, he cautioned against having any dirt on top of the first pour because that'll act as lube during an earthquake - or any lateral stress - so try to clean those up as much as you can prior to pouring the 2nd level.

You can rent a hammer drill & bit from any equipment rental outfit, probably the same place you got your transit from.

I know you probably don't want to hear this, but he knows what he's talking about when it comes to concrete construction and this is without question how he'd go about doing your project at this stage.

[fj1200]

There is an alternative to adding that much concrete in that the way the posts are, they are 3-2x6 planks bolted together. They are staggered in a way that allows for adding on which is what we had to do with the end gables because the posts only are deliverable in 22ft lengths or less and the ends have 24, 26, 28 and 30 lengths to support the end trusses so we built them out with the instructions.

Would that be ok to do structurally instead? Just because it would be hella faster than pouring 30" of concrete and waiting for it to set and i can do this alone with the help of my tractor instead of waiting 6 hours for hubby to be done with work and help.

3 2x6s will not be as strong as one post depending on the connections you use and connections are what provides the strength. That's a question for an engineer.

[KitchenKitten99]

Are you asking if you can just use three 2x6s bolted together and standing upright on the existing concrete to come up to 4'10" on the other 3 holes?
Kind of.
The 5 posts that are set between the corner posts on the shorter gable ends had to be built up to the proper lengths of 24, 26, 28, and 30ft. They came delivered at 22ft. The corner and long side posts are at 20 but they are built the same as the 22ft in that i can build them out taller the same way i did the others. This is done by popping out the center board and putting a longer one in its place, then tacking on the 2 other 2x6s to sandwich the center.

Rather than pouring more concrete, structurally is it ok to build them up that same way and avoid pouring concrete altogether to get the same height result? I am back filling the low spots anyway and using treated boards to hold the fill in place.

I tried pulling photos from my phone i took of the instructions to upload but the site doesnt seem to upload them.

[NightTrain]

Kind of.
The 5 posts that are set between the corner posts on the shorter gable ends had to be built up to the proper lengths of 24, 26, 28, and 30ft. They came delivered at 22ft. The corner and long side posts are at 20 but they are built the same as the 22ft in that i can build them out taller the same way i did the others. This is done by popping out the center board and putting a longer one in its place, then tacking on the 2 other 2x6s to sandwich the center.

Rather than pouring more concrete, structurally is it ok to build them up that same way and avoid pouring concrete altogether to get the same height result? I am back filling the low spots anyway and using treated boards to hold the fill in place.

I tried pulling photos from my phone i took of the instructions to upload but the site doesnt seem to upload them.


Text them to me... check your PM.

[NightTrain]

3 2x6s will not be as strong as one post depending on the connections you use and connections are what provides the strength. That's a question for an engineer.

No engineer here by any stretch, but I'm sure it wouldn't be anywhere near as strong as the concrete. Plus, then there's the issue of buried lumber and that has a lifespan, treated or not. And I don't know how you would go about securing the 2x6s to the concrete without drilling & brackets... in the end I suspect there wouldn't be much time saved and the overall strength and longevity would suffer.

[Gunny]

Gunny, after a nasty lightening storm last week half of my garage is without power and I'm stuck as to why a blown fuse keeps blowing when replaced. I'll draw a diagram so you can diagnose it and tell me what to do. Thanks!

Sounds to me like you got a problem. Fuse box? Means most likely your panel is not grounded. If that's the case, Houston, you got problems. How old is it?

You could also have a damaged line that is grounding you out. If the lightning damaged any of your lines, they will trip a breaker.

What you might want to ought to do is head down to Home Depot and look for the bulletin board. Tradesmen will put their cards on and do sidework. Negotiate a price, then make sure when he's working, be there to watch him. They WILL milk the clock on you.

You call an electric company, depending on where you live, you're giving up at least a hundred just for the service call and first hour.

[Gunny]

I'm no carpenter by any stretch, but I've been a part of many construction projects.

The timing of this problem was perfect because we just did this exact same procedure last week up at the cabin - and I haven't forgotten it yet. Yet.

Construction was my second career. I can do a lot of crap. Electricians are jacks of all trades. Framing, for me, ain't one of them. I can alter it, and I can run underground in your slab before you pour it. You might as well get Marvin the Martian when it's time to frame. :laugh:

[fj1200]

No engineer here by any stretch, but I'm sure it wouldn't be anywhere near as strong as the concrete. Plus, then there's the issue of buried lumber and that has a lifespan, treated or not. And I don't know how you would go about securing the 2x6s to the concrete without drilling & brackets... in the end I suspect there wouldn't be much time saved and the overall strength and longevity would suffer.

No question. As my structural engineer brother once told me it's all about the connections. You can start out with the best lumber but if you go weak on the connectors then it's like you haven't done it at all. KK didn't mention the connection of the post to the footings but I'm sure code has something to say about it.

[hjmick]

Help building a barn? Do you know any Amish folk?

[Elessar]

Help building a barn? Do you know any Amish folk?

That's kind of amusing, but a good point!:laugh:

No idea where KK is located, though!

Hogwarts? (Not picking on you KK!)