Milwaukee Going Through Ferguson? [Archive] - Debate Policy

Kathianne

08-14-2016, 08:53 AM

http://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/watch-crowd-burns-down-bp-gas-station-with-employees-trapped-inside

They didn't send in firemen because of bullets flying:

WATCH: Crowd burns down BP Gas station with employees trapped inside

Armored vehicle used to rescue employees

<address class="byline" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: normal; font-size: 12px; font-family: inherit; color: rgb(99, 100, 102);">Rebecca Klopf</address>2:16 AM, Aug 14, 2016

4 hours ago

Video shows some extremely scary moments for the employees of a BP Gas station as a crowd of demonstrators descended on the business during Saturday night's unrest on the north side of Milwaukee.

TODAY'S TMJ4'S Rebecca Klopf spoke with an eyewitness who recorded the situation at Sherman and Burleigh.

The man says people were upset and throwing rocks at police officers when they decided to turn their attention to the gas station.

Three employees were trapped inside the gas station as a couple of people tried to knock out the bulletproof glass.

The crowd then set the gas station on fire. Police brought in an armored vehicle to get the employees out. They were not harmed in the incident.

The fire department didn't immediately respond because of reports of gunfire.

According to the eyewitness, who asked to remain anonymous, the demonstrators then turned their attention to the street, knocking out glass from bus shelters and moving to other areas of the neighborhood.

The gas station has been targeted for demonstrations in recent weeks after an employee fired a gun in the air after an issue with a juvenile customer.

jimnyc

08-14-2016, 09:04 AM

Things will be better in about 16 or so more days.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

08-14-2016, 09:32 AM

http://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/watch-crowd-burns-down-bp-gas-station-with-employees-trapped-inside

They didn't send in firemen because of bullets flying:

THAT THEY DID NOT SEND IN SWAT AND START SHOOTING THE BASTARDS TRYING TO BURN THOSE INNOCENT PEOPLE ALIVE TELLS ALL WE NEED TO KNOW ABOUT THE OBAMA DICTATORIAL REGIME, ITS INFLUENCE, EDICTS, COMMANDS AND TYRANNY.
Sure one may say that is city responsibility but truth is that its well known (obama and his Federal government mandates issued to police departments under the obama) -- demand, to let the black people revolt , burn and destroy but under no circumstances shoot them as that would end the chaos/instability that the muslim/socialist obama wants in this nation.

Setting the stage for massive nationwide organized riots should Hillary lose the election and Trump win..
That way -the obama can declare martial law and only he can end it.. which he wouldn''t..
Just as my friend Gaffer and I discussed so often in our emails.
There is a damn good reason why Gaffer referenced the bastard obama as the Darklord..

America had best wake up to the absolute control they've put into that traitor's hands methinks.
Once martial law is declared by the President-only he can un-declare it..

Anybody that thinks that is not a real possibility just hasnt been paying attention to the deep hatred obama, his piece of shit wife and the dem party leadership has for this nation as it was founded IMHO..

Kat, I am glad your family is ok my friend....
We worry more about the ones we love than we do ourselves..-Tyr

Elessar

08-14-2016, 09:39 AM

Not to take anything away from Tyr's post above, but I have to
shake my head in sorrow and wonder just what the F*** is wrong with people.

pete311

08-15-2016, 06:33 AM

Kathianne

08-15-2016, 07:17 AM

I live 1/2 mile from where this happened. Milwaukee is the most segregated major city in the US. The shooting was just the straw that broke the camels back. These people live in a different world. A world that is easy to judge until you spend significant time in it.

That may well be, but those politicians that were somewhat fueling unrest, would better spend their time addressing the problems. The reaction of the mobs hurts only those with businesses that are employing and providing services to those in those same neighborhoods.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

08-15-2016, 07:27 AM

I live 1/2 mile from where this happened. Milwaukee is the most segregated major city in the US. The shooting was just the straw that broke the camels back. These people live in a different world. A world that is easy to judge until you spend significant time in it.

A world that is easy to judge until you spend significant time in it.

EASY TO JUDGE IF YOU ARE WILLING TO LAY BLAME WHERE IT TRULY BELONGS.......
MY ANCESTORS WERE NATIVE AMERICANS PETEY, WHY THE HELL AREN'T I OUT PROTESTING SINCE THEY GOT TREATED WORSE THAN BLACKS?

No sir, your comment hints at we that see clearly a group of people, demanding free stuff, special privileges and our bowing down to their black culture, violence, lust-filled urges and insanity.

They are easy to judge if one is not already (for whatever reason) committed to kissing their asses and proving white guilt..
As are the lousy dem/libs and PC enslaved ffing morons!

SOBS RIOTING, BURNING BUILDINGS, SHOOTING INNOCENT WHITE PEOPLE ,URGING KILL WHITE BABIES ARE NOT THE VICTIMS THAT YOU AND OTHERS CLAIM THAT THEY ARE.

NO, its you that needs to wake the hell up to reality and truth.
I have no sympathy for them or any damn dumb-ass fool that defends them.--Tyr

pete311

08-15-2016, 07:36 AM

That may well be, but those politicians that were somewhat fueling unrest, would better spend their time addressing the problems. The reaction of the mobs hurts only those with businesses that are employing and providing services to those in those same neighborhoods.

The story isn't the riot, nor the shooting. That is just the consequence of ignoring the situation. A situation that only people who live outside their world pay attention to when something like this happens. Riots are a cry for help. And I'm not talking gov handouts.

Kathianne

08-15-2016, 07:45 AM

The story isn't the riot, nor the shooting. That is just the consequence of ignoring the situation. A situation that only people who live outside their world pay attention to when something like this happens. Riots are a cry for help. And I'm not talking gov handouts.

No they're not. They are the manifestation of those that find any excuse to loot and riot.

If what you say is taken as a given, we'd see the entire community out rioting. They weren't. Indeed many showed up Sunday morning, young and old-male and female, to clean up the mess left behind.

pete311

08-15-2016, 08:07 AM

No they're not. They are the manifestation of those that find any excuse to loot and riot.

If what you say is taken as a given, we'd see the entire community out rioting. They weren't. Indeed many showed up Sunday morning, young and old-male and female, to clean up the mess left behind.

There are some opportunists of course, but that isn't the cause of the ignition for the fuel tank that builds over decades of injustice. The riot was wrong. But some feel it's the only way to get attention and guess what, it works. FYI I was there helping clean up and giving out water yesterday. I've never felt such emotional intensity from a community.

Kathianne

08-15-2016, 08:59 AM

There are some opportunists of course, but that isn't the cause of the ignition for the fuel tank that builds over decades of injustice. The riot was wrong. But some feel it's the only way to get attention and guess what, it works. FYI I was there helping clean up and giving out water yesterday. I've never felt such emotional intensity from a community.

I'm glad you got a feel good moment, that's great. Time for people in the community to communicate with the politicians, (aldermen or whatever system they have), schools, churches, and businesses. Change comes from those that work towards something, not destroying something.

pete311

08-15-2016, 09:14 AM

I'm glad you got a feel good moment, that's great. Time for people in the community to communicate with the politicians, (aldermen or whatever system they have), schools, churches, and businesses. Change comes from those that work towards something, not destroying something.

I wouldn't call it a feel good moment and your comment is exactly what the response would be of someone who doesn't live in their world.

Kathianne

08-15-2016, 09:44 AM

I wouldn't call it a feel good moment and your comment is exactly what the response would be of someone who doesn't live in their world.

You haven't a clue to my experiences.

jimnyc

08-15-2016, 10:55 AM

I live 1/2 mile from where this happened. Milwaukee is the most segregated major city in the US. The shooting was just the straw that broke the camels back. These people live in a different world. A world that is easy to judge until you spend significant time in it.

A black cop shot an ARMED black man. Same thing that would happen anywhere else in the nation. The response - now that's different depending on where you are. Yes, I will in fact judge. They acted like animals.

pete311

08-15-2016, 11:42 AM

You haven't a clue to my experiences.

If you are a black women living in poverty with an abusive husband with 4 kids who can't read, have lead poisoning and are involved in drug gangs then let me know and I'll rescind my comment.

A black cop shot an ARMED black man. Same thing that would happen anywhere else in the nation. The response - now that's different depending on where you are. Yes, I will in fact judge. They acted like animals.

If you don't want this happening again you will stop your tunnel vision and start focusing on the underlying issues that have been in development for decades. The issue is not the shooting or the riot. Look deeper.

jimnyc

08-15-2016, 12:12 PM

If you don't want this happening again you will stop your tunnel vision and start focusing on the underlying issues that have been in development for decades. The issue is not the shooting or the riot. Look deeper.

I can't think of a single "excuse" that should allow for folks rioting and trying to shoot others and burning down businesses AND AND AND going out of their way to attack and try and kill white people. WTF in the world woul'd I try and look deeper at that for? Those folks need JAIL and that's it. NOTHING excuses attacking others and their possessions. Times are tough - so suddenly it's ok, or excusable to do such things?

Perhaps look into the communities for the future - but those in the community NOW that were involved in this in ANY way should be prosecuted and stuck in a box.

jimnyc

08-15-2016, 01:01 PM

Maybe they're just misunderstood? Perhaps since the rich didn't fork over their money they figured it's Aok to just rob stores now? I'm sure we will hear excuses for this kind of behavior. "They were marginalized for so many years" :rolleyes:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=8ab1fe313c33" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

jimnyc

08-15-2016, 01:09 PM

Trouble just for the sake of starting trouble, and they KNOW this 100%. They want to protest and start trouble at locations where there are no trouble. Then the crowds will chant bad things about whitey and then likely rob and burn convenience stores. Idiots.

And WHO do they feel owes them a damn thing? They announce this crap, I would show up and arrest every single person that even remotely starts any trouble. I wouldn't give them JACK SHIT. Sure, they deserve things, simply for acting like animals by destroying things and attacking people.

-----

Activists for black lives release plans to "Shut Down Graceland"

It's been the summer of protests, and now another one is planned.

The Coalition of Concerned Citizens, including Black Lives Matter protesters and others groups announced their plan to "Shut Down Graceland."

Protest leaders say the mass demonstration is planned for 6:00 PM Monday. They said they specifically chose Graceland because it is Elvis week and they know it will raise awareness.

Leaders say they also chose Graceland because "it demonstrates one of Memphis's most common forms of financial inequality and because the site has ties to...the death of unarmed teen Darrius Stewart."

We feel like we still haven't been answered," said Frank Gottie, a community leader. "They're givin us the runaround."

http://www.fox13memphis.com/news/black-lives-matter-protesters-released-plans-to-shut-down-graceland/421640114

jimnyc

08-15-2016, 01:11 PM

New Unrest in Milwaukee After Police Shooting Sparks Violence

At least one person was wounded after shots were fired and protesters threw objects at police in Milwaukee late Sunday night, a day after violence erupted overnight in the wake of the fatal shooting of a man by police, authorities said.

Police said they were deploying armored vehicles to protect officers and to rescue a shooting victim, who was rushed to a hospital. At midnight Monday, police declared the protest an unlawful assembly and announced that they would begin making arrests.

The National Guard was activated Sunday, but Mayor Tom Barrett said they wouldn't be deployed unless police deemed that they were needed. "I'm hopeful that that will not be necessary," Barrett said. "But if it is necessary, we will do so."

Barrett urged parents to keep their children home Sunday night.

"This is still a volatile situation. I don't know what's going to happen tonight," he said, adding that a curfew would be enforced if needed. At least 150 specially trained officers will be patrolling in pairs Sunday night, police said.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/national-guard-deployed-milwaukee-cleans-after-police-shooting-protests-n630451

pete311

08-15-2016, 02:20 PM

Those folks need JAIL and that's it.

Guess what Jim, Wisconsin has the highest incarceration rate of blacks in the world. Guess it ain't working. Next idea.

jimnyc

08-15-2016, 02:26 PM

Guess what Jim, Wisconsin has the highest incarceration rate of blacks in the world. Guess it ain't working. Next idea.

Oh, well in that case, let everyone just be lawbreakers then, no point enforcing laws!! :rolleyes:

What if you have a town with the most murders in the world, and therefore the most murderers in the local prison - but murders still happen. I guess we should move to another idea, forget jailing and law enforcement?

I don't give a flying fuck about any of that. We are a nation of laws. If you break them, there are consequences.

You don't get a pass when targeting and assaulting white people.
You don't get a pass when you rob and loot stores.
You don't get a pass when you light buildings on fire.

Regardless of the incarceration rate - those who gleefully broke the law should be treated just like every other criminal - arrested, brought before the courts and sentenced appropriately. History, bad times, lack of money or any of that other crap doesn't allow for people to break laws.

Elessar

08-15-2016, 02:37 PM

If you are a black women living in poverty with an abusive husband with 4 kids who can't read, have lead poisoning and are involved in drug gangs then let me know and I'll rescind my comment.

If you don't want this happening again you will stop your tunnel vision and start focusing on the underlying issues that have been in development for decades. The issue is not the shooting or the riot. Look deeper.

Where exactly is your tunnel vision focused?

Defending the anarchists who riot, burn, loot, and assault others?
Or getting to the root problem that they do NOT want to give up a life of
handouts and freebies, and only demand to be catered to? They have
had opportunities to get educated, get out of the barrios and inner city jungles.
But NO...they stay in that filth and get mad that successful people do not come
swooping in to cater to them.

What is the problem then? They being ignorant and hateful, or everyone
else not groveling to their demands?

By the way Women is plural...Woman is singular.
It is not society's fault that a woman spreads her legs to let in any buck that comes along.
That is fully on her...but she wants the white people to support her? Laughable!

pete311

08-15-2016, 04:06 PM

Oh, well in that case, let everyone just be lawbreakers then, no point enforcing laws!! :rolleyes:

What if you have a town with the most murders in the world, and therefore the most murderers in the local prison - but murders still happen. I guess we should move to another idea, forget jailing and law enforcement?

I don't give a flying fuck about any of that. We are a nation of laws. If you break them, there are consequences.

You don't get a pass when targeting and assaulting white people.
You don't get a pass when you rob and loot stores.
You don't get a pass when you light buildings on fire.

Regardless of the incarceration rate - those who gleefully broke the law should be treated just like every other criminal - arrested, brought before the courts and sentenced appropriately. History, bad times, lack of money or any of that other crap doesn't allow for people to break laws.

No passes, never defended rioting, jail is needed for some, but what I am saying is jail is not the solution. You can't arrest yourself out of this problem. That is clear after the past 40 years. Work to fix the underlying issues facing the impoverished black communities or we'll see repeats of this every couple years. We are a nation of laws, but for the black community many are unjust laws. Read the "New Jim Crow" book and you'll see just how deep the injustice is.

pete311

08-15-2016, 04:08 PM

Where exactly is your tunnel vision focused?

Defending the anarchists who riot, burn, loot, and assault others?
Or getting to the root problem that they do NOT want to give up a life of
handouts and freebies, and only demand to be catered to? They have
had opportunities to get educated, get out of the barrios and inner city jungles.
But NO...they stay in that filth and get mad that successful people do not come
swooping in to cater to them.

What is the problem then? They being ignorant and hateful, or everyone
else not groveling to their demands?

By the way Women is plural...Woman is singular.
It is not society's fault that a woman spreads her legs to let in any buck that comes along.
That is fully on her...but she wants the white people to support her? Laughable!

You clearly have no idea what the current issues are. You are on the outside looking in with demented goggles.

jimnyc

08-15-2016, 04:12 PM

No passes, never defended rioting, jail is needed for some, but what I am saying is jail is not the solution. You can't arrest yourself out of this problem. That is clear after the past 40 years. Work to fix the underlying issues facing the impoverished black communities or we'll see repeats of this every couple years. We are a nation of laws, but for the black community many are unjust laws. Read the "New Jim Crow" book and you'll see just how deep the injustice is.

There are perhaps things that can change in the long run... but there's a big difference between making changes to help a community in the long run - and excusing criminal behavior. NOTHING you have written changes the fact that these folks have acted like animals, and deserve criminal charges at the very least. They don't get lesser or alternative treatment just because things haven't worked out for them within the community. And that's THEIR problem if they want to commit crimes and then see laws as unjust. NOTHING that happened in the past allows for the current breaking of laws. No matter how unjust they see certain laws, it still doesn't allow for them to be broken. This applies to EVERYONE in EVERY community, regardless of race. One doesn't get to cry foul and suddenly get treated differently by the justice system.

And unjust laws. Does it make sense to anyone, that a community doesn't like unjust laws - so they then shoot at people, assault people, rob people, commit arson... That is IDIOTIC and also idiotic to believe that laws are to blame for folks breaking the law.

Kathianne

08-15-2016, 04:13 PM

Pete takes things to such an extreme, that even I who normally would engage in discussion of socioeconomic factors find myself saying it's not worth it.

Pete, not every woman living in any area is a single mom. Nor are all the kids there victims of lead poisoning. I'll wager that there are white, oriental, hispanic women facing much the same socioeconomic issues that you raised regarding that neighborhood in Milwaukee. A step further, I'll bet there are kids raised in that area that go to school and excel. You went for your moments of 'community' with the people living there, if you did work, good on you. There were people from that community, including men, women, youths that were as disgusted by the destruction of property as anyone here. They are black.

jimnyc

08-15-2016, 04:14 PM

You clearly have no idea what the current issues are. You are on the outside looking in with demented goggles.

One doesn't need to know the actual issues within another community to know that looting is illegal, assault is illegal, arson is illegal... There is NOTHING IN THE ENTIRE WORLD that can be their "current issues" that would allow for criminal behavior.

jimnyc

08-15-2016, 04:17 PM

hjmick

08-15-2016, 04:21 PM

Seems like some communities could learn from North Charleston...

pete311

08-15-2016, 04:35 PM

One doesn't need to know the actual issues within another community to know that looting is illegal, assault is illegal, arson is illegal... There is NOTHING IN THE ENTIRE WORLD that can be their "current issues" that would allow for criminal behavior.

Never defended the rioting. I'm trying to discuss the notion of solving the underlying causes of what lead to a riot. The shooting (whether justified or not) was just the straw the broke the camels back.

jimnyc

08-15-2016, 04:39 PM

Never defended the rioting. I'm trying to discuss the notion of solving the underlying causes of what lead to a riot. The shooting (whether justified or not) was just the straw the broke the camels back.

Perhaps different angles can be tried going forward. But that doesn't mean ANYONE did anything wrong prior to that - other than the communities themselves who are responsible for their own actions. Seeing a criminal rightfully getting shot should have been GOOD for the community, not a reason to act out, break laws and steal shit.

And let's face it, it's hardly just this area - every time there's an incident, it's been turning towards violence, then we see fires, then we see shitloads entering stores and stealing shit... it's like the same thing over and over in different communities. Folks often get treated based on how they act.

pete311

08-15-2016, 04:42 PM

There are perhaps things that can change in the long run... but there's a big difference between making changes to help a community in the long run - and excusing criminal behavior. NOTHING you have written changes the fact that these folks have acted like animals, and deserve criminal charges at the very least. They don't get lesser or alternative treatment just because things haven't worked out for them within the community. And that's THEIR problem if they want to commit crimes and then see laws as unjust. NOTHING that happened in the past allows for the current breaking of laws. No matter how unjust they see certain laws, it still doesn't allow for them to be broken. This applies to EVERYONE in EVERY community, regardless of race. One doesn't get to cry foul and suddenly get treated differently by the justice system.

And unjust laws. Does it make sense to anyone, that a community doesn't like unjust laws - so they then shoot at people, assault people, rob people, commit arson... That is IDIOTIC and also idiotic to believe that laws are to blame for folks breaking the law.

I implore you to spend significant time in an impoverished black community volunteering to better understand the situation and plight. There are plenty of unjust laws put in place that targeted black communities since the civil rights movement. One of the most damaging was the war on drugs which has been a colossal failure introduced by your savior Ronald Reagan. I implore you to read The New Jim Crow. Please read it.

pete311

08-15-2016, 04:44 PM

Perhaps different angles can be tried going forward. But that doesn't mean ANYONE did anything wrong prior to that - other than the communities themselves who are responsible for their own actions. Seeing a criminal rightfully getting shot should have been GOOD for the community, not a reason to act out, break laws and steal shit.

And let's face it, it's hardly just this area - every time there's an incident, it's been turning towards violence, then we see fires, then we see shitloads entering stores and stealing shit... it's like the same thing over and over in different communities. Folks often get treated based on how they act.

It's not about right and wrong. It's about doing what needs to be done to turn around black communities. You can sit here and judge all you want and guess what, in 50 years nothing will change. OR we can bite our lip and do what needs to be done. That is full engagement and participation working together to create policies, services and volunteer efforts to turn the communities around.

Kathianne

08-15-2016, 04:45 PM

pete311

08-15-2016, 04:47 PM

A step further, I'll bet there are kids raised in that area that go to school and excel. You went for your moments of 'community' with the people living there, if you did work, good on you. There were people from that community, including men, women, youths that were as disgusted by the destruction of property as anyone here. They are black.

Clearly not enough, is that not obvious?

pete311

08-15-2016, 04:49 PM

1. are you black?
2. most of the problems in the black community has to do with fatherless homes, thanks to the 'War on Poverty.'

I am white. Yes clearly the war on poverty worked. All black children say they want to be slobs when you grow up and dependent on welfare. That is every child's dream in the hood. Welfare is so great, that is why they turn to drug gangs. They don't even need the money. It's just fun for them............

Kathianne

08-15-2016, 04:50 PM

Clearly not enough, is that not obvious?
Not black enough? Huh? Or do you mean children not excelling. Why would that be? All the paint they ate? I think you are grasping. Is help needed? Yes. Is your bleeding heart the answer? Likely not.

jimnyc

08-15-2016, 04:57 PM

I implore you to spend significant time in an impoverished black community volunteering to better understand the situation and plight. There are plenty of unjust laws put in place that targeted black communities since the civil rights movement. One of the most damaging was the war on drugs which has been a colossal failure introduced by your savior Ronald Reagan. I implore you to read The New Jim Crow. Please read it.

It's not about right and wrong. It's about doing what needs to be done to turn around black communities. You can sit here and judge all you want and guess what, in 50 years nothing will change. OR we can bite our lip and do what needs to be done. That is full engagement and participation working together to create policies, services and volunteer efforts to turn the communities around.

Please be specific - which laws on the books are unjust, that somehow, in any way whatsoever, would make it even remotely OK to break the laws we continually see being broken? And you believe, that since OTHERS don't help their communities enough - that it means it's somehow ok for them to break some laws?

Kathianne

08-15-2016, 05:06 PM

About 2 hours ago water was approaching her house, she just posted this picture:

https://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14022120_10153520567922242_4179360166290679276_n.j pg?oh=55f13001c8e1000132ad0f8c8af16bc4&oe=5814D99A

Their house, last night:

https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13912652_10153523773017242_5411734627990013530_n.j pg?oh=89e39bb54cbab49944207dc53982e23a&oe=584818AD

jimnyc

08-15-2016, 05:19 PM

How they handle issues when they don't like a thug being shot, or unjust laws. This is the sister of the thug shot. She's correct about not burning their shit down, that they need it. But then she decides to turn into an animal and call for burning down of other folks stuff in the suburbs.

God forbid they just see things for what they are - that a black thug carrying a gun was shot by a black police officer.

But that may get in the way of getting some free goodies out of it. :rolleyes:

-----
(video at site)

Burn Down White Suburbs, Sister of Man Killed by Milwaukee Police Urges Rioters
"Take that sh*t to the suburbs. Burn that sh*t down! We need our sh*t! We need our weave!"

Video footage shows the sister of the man shot dead by police in Milwaukee calling on rioters to burn down white suburbs instead of their own neighborhoods.

“Burning down sh*t ain’t gonna help nothin’,” yells Sherelle Smith.

“You’re burnin’ down sh*t we need in our community.”

“Take that sh*t to the suburbs. Burn that sh*t down!” she demands.

“We need our sh*t! We need our weave! I don’t wear it, but we need it!”

http://www.infowars.com/burn-down-white-suburbs-sister-of-man-killed-by-milwaukee-police-urges-rioters/

jimnyc

08-15-2016, 05:28 PM

http://i.imgur.com/yruGnVp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/f3bomap.jpg

Elessar

08-15-2016, 07:18 PM

You clearly have no idea what the current issues are. You are on the outside looking in with demented goggles.

No. You state you are inside. I call BS on that. I lived with poor folk for years, black and white.
But they got off their asses and made a living, not sitting around for Uncle Rich White Man to come along
to allow their welfare sucking habits.

Your goggles are clearly blackened because you cannot accept reality.

aboutime

08-15-2016, 07:36 PM

Elessar

08-15-2016, 08:08 PM

NEVER MENTION THE more than 3000 BLACK MURDERS IN CHICAGO....all BLACK ON BLACK. But...let ONE cop....take out a BAD GUY who happens to be BLACK, and FERGUSON becomes the lame excuse to scream BLACK LIVES MATTER....ONLY IF YOU ARE A HOODY. from a GHETTO where Crime, Drugs, UNEMPLOYMENT, and UNWED GIRLS REPRODUCE LIKE RABBITS.

I welcome anyone who wishes to DISPUTE the HONEST TRUTH above!

Not going to dispute what is accurate. People need to wake up, take back their pride and dignity.
Quit waiting on 'Uncle Rich White Guy' to pull them up by their bootstraps. Quit drug dealing,
robbing, looting, burning down their own neighborhoods.

pete311

08-15-2016, 08:45 PM

Not black enough? Huh? Or do you mean children not excelling. Why would that be? All the paint they ate? I think you are grasping. Is help needed? Yes. Is your bleeding heart the answer? Likely not.

Most kids do beat the odds in the ghetto. Most do not. That is what I meant. A bleeding heart is someone looking at solve the real underlying issues instead of just saying arrest them all in a state that has the highest black incarceration rate in the world? Seriously, it's not working. That's the best you can do? Your solution is just to point fingers and say get better. Yah, that works... 60 years since the civil rights movement and all they really needed was to hear you tell them to get better. Who would have thought....

pete311

08-15-2016, 08:48 PM

http://i.imgur.com/yruGnVp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/f3bomap.jpg

I don't believe they know he pointed the gun at the officer. Last I read he was fleeing with the gun. Also it's a big deal when a cop kills a civilian. They are to protect. Cops are not trusted in these areas. That is a problem. Remember even my black neighbor was thrown face first into the ground for entering his own home.

pete311

08-15-2016, 08:49 PM

NEVER MENTION THE more than 3000 BLACK MURDERS IN CHICAGO....all BLACK ON BLACK. But...let ONE cop....take out a BAD GUY who happens to be BLACK, and FERGUSON becomes the lame excuse to scream BLACK LIVES MATTER....ONLY IF YOU ARE A HOODY. from a GHETTO where Crime, Drugs, UNEMPLOYMENT, and UNWED GIRLS REPRODUCE LIKE RABBITS.

I welcome anyone who wishes to DISPUTE the HONEST TRUTH above!

Cops are meant to protect. They aren't trusted in the ghetto. I see problems and no solutions. What are your solutions?

pete311

08-15-2016, 08:53 PM

Not going to dispute what is accurate. People need to wake up, take back their pride and dignity.
Quit waiting on 'Uncle Rich White Guy' to pull them up by their bootstraps. Quit drug dealing,
robbing, looting, burning down their own neighborhoods.

Exactly how do you think these ghettos were formed? Prior to civil rights movement blacks were a proud and artistic culture with strong families. They gained freedom but from behind the scenes polices formed that destroyed them. Now you just tell them to shape up when many of those policies are still in action? Seriously that is your genius idea. Telling someone to shape up is not a solution. With that mindset nothing will change.

pete311

08-15-2016, 08:54 PM

Please be specific - which laws on the books are unjust, that somehow, in any way whatsoever, would make it even remotely OK to break the laws we continually see being broken? And you believe, that since OTHERS don't help their communities enough - that it means it's somehow ok for them to break some laws?

It's not ok to break laws, it's also not ok to have unjust laws that target minorities.

Conservative Rand Paul even sees it
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/06/24/rand-paul-marijuana-arrests-column/2452259/

Elessar

08-15-2016, 09:17 PM

Most kids do beat the odds in the ghetto. Most do not. That is what I meant.

In one line you contradict yourself. Is it Most or Some, or Some or Most?

pete311

08-15-2016, 09:19 PM

In one line you contradict yourself. Is it Most or Some, or Some or Most?

Change first most to some

Elessar

08-15-2016, 09:25 PM

I don't believe they know he pointed the gun at the officer. Last I read he was fleeing with the gun. Also it's a big deal when a cop kills a civilian. They are to protect. Cops are not trusted in these areas. That is a problem. Remember even my black neighbor was thrown face first into the ground for entering his own home.

How about we wait for an investigation before you cast judgement? The rioting crowds already passed judgement, blaming a cop
for shooting a long-time known criminal behaving like a criminal. Cops do not identify, on large, to skin color. Yet these rioters did
just that, going after white people. They should all be shackled and taken to a remote island in Lake Superior and let Obama and Sharpton
feed them.

pete311

08-15-2016, 09:44 PM

How about we wait for an investigation before you cast judgement? The rioting crowds already passed judgement, blaming a cop
for shooting a long-time known criminal behaving like a criminal. Cops do not identify, on large, to skin color. Yet these rioters did
just that, going after white people. They should all be shackled and taken to a remote island in Lake Superior and let Obama and Sharpton
feed them.

Tell that to Jim who posted the image. I have never once supported the riot.

aboutime

08-15-2016, 09:53 PM

Cops are meant to protect. They aren't trusted in the ghetto. I see problems and no solutions. What are your solutions?

My solutions begin with getting rid of the democrat politicians who have been intentionally driving Black Americans into permanent poverty situations with promises...they have never kept.
The good people who live in the Ghetto need the protection of the police, but because they are threatened by their OWN law breaking, drug, and crime dealers who would shoot them if they SNITCH, the neighborhoods stay the same.
More than 50 percent of young Black males in those cities (ghettos) are unemployed, and choose crime, and drugs to survive....so the COPS become their enemy.
There are TWO resolutions I can think of....but Racist Blacks do not want some CRACKER like me to speak, or make suggestions since I HAVE NOT WALKED IN THEIR SHOES (As I have been told many times).
1. The FAMILY where a father, and mother are around for the kids....IS GONE in most cases in the Ghettos. Consequently....young Black girls kind of go into the business of WELFARE, FOOD STAMPS, and GOVT. Assistance to support their Fatherless children.
2. Democrats EXTORT, and BLACKMAIL Black voters into voting for more money for schools, but their High school graduation records are Terrible across the board, PRIMARILY because the Democrats in charge....Politicians running the cities....never quite get all those HUGE SUMS OF SCHOOL FUNDING to anyone but the Administrators, School boards, and the kickbacks to the Politicians who PAY FOR THEIR VOTES with more promises of funding for FAILING SCHOOLS (Education...the Dems DO NOT WANT BLACK AMERICANS TO GET.....because KNOWLEDGE IS POWER, and the politicians do not want their voters to be smart enough to see, and learn....THEY ARE BEING RIPPED OFF.

Kathianne

08-15-2016, 10:20 PM

Kathianne

08-15-2016, 10:28 PM

Most kids do beat the odds in the ghetto. Most do not. That is what I meant. A bleeding heart is someone looking at solve the real underlying issues instead of just saying arrest them all in a state that has the highest black incarceration rate in the world? Seriously, it's not working. That's the best you can do? Your solution is just to point fingers and say get better. Yah, that works... 60 years since the civil rights movement and all they really needed was to hear you tell them to get better. Who would have thought....

Umm, you would not find me saying anything of the sort. I'm not big on 'locking them up,' for non-violent crimes. I am big on solutions though, but your posts are not really looking for solutions and you certainly haven't put forth any yourself.

1. community policing
2. programs of service for kids ages 7-18. Positive self-esteem comes from achieving and feeling empowered-only accomplished by goals and attainment. Might just be cutting an elderly neighbor's lawn or even cleaning up a vacant lot. Might be helping out younger children in church school. Lots of things that make one look beyond oneself.
3. Working with schools to welcome new parents of babies. Ongoing contact to help them, (especially teen parents) on what is expected at a given age and how to help their baby, toddler, young child achieve those expectations.

there's more, but then again, I see zippo from you.

pete311

08-15-2016, 10:59 PM

Since yesterday the police and mayor have said that he was running, stopped, while holding the stolen gun turned towards officer, was ordered to drop it, didn't and was shot.

Today the autopsy showed he was shot in arm and chest. NOT in back.

Just to be clear, turning towards the officer is not the same as pointing the gun at the officer.

pete311

08-15-2016, 11:11 PM

there's more, but then again, I see zippo from you.

Don't be like that, I've been busy with the members who just want to point fingers.

Adding to your list, decriminalize drugs, reform prison and release, more after school and night programs for kids etc etc

Kathianne

08-15-2016, 11:27 PM

Don't be like that, I've been busy with the members who just want to point fingers.

Adding to your list, decriminalize drugs, reform prison and release, more after school and night programs for kids etc etc

Actually you spent quite a bit of your time blowing your own horn, putting me and others down, and being a pompous ass without adding anything but snark. However, I'll play for now.

I disagree, with decriminalizing drugs-they are a scourge in poverty areas. Prison reform has a place, but isn't a panacea for long term change, regardless of it being brought up often. One caveat to both of my points, which has more to do with sentencing than prison reform, service programs for first/second convictions for drug use only. Not something like cleaning up a park though-something where there are either real work experience gained or serving others less fortunate. One of the hardest parts of being on lower socioeconomic groups is to be given the opportunity to realize that there are others in worse shape. Might be handicapped or wounded vets or the elderly. Might be a kid that needs a 'mentor' which sounds counter-intuitive but has worked with the proper supervision.

After school programs haven't been terribly successful, indeed often are an invitation for gang recruitment. Night school for those who've dropped out of regular school or need remedial help to pass GED or get skills for a job? Excellent. Of course those would be for 17 and up.

Elessar

08-16-2016, 12:31 AM

Just to be clear, turning towards the officer is not the same as pointing the gun at the officer.

Just to be clear, turning toward the officer with a pistol (not a gun. Learn the difference) in hand
or reaching for it is a direct threat to that cop. The Cop has 2 -3 seconds to respond. What if he waits?
Dead Cop.

Gun = Single shot pistol, meaning even with double action.
Gun = a cannon, single shot as on a tank or deck gun on a ship.

You are not as smart as you play up to be.

Elessar

08-16-2016, 12:37 AM

Don't be like that, I've been busy with the members who just want to point fingers.

Adding to your list, decriminalize drugs, reform prison and release, more after school and night programs for kids etc etc

Will they participate? Will their parents be there to make sure they do? There is
the problem. Inner city black parents sit on their asses and assume society will raise
their spawn.

Gunny

08-16-2016, 01:17 AM

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

08-16-2016, 07:20 AM

The story isn't the riot, nor the shooting. That is just the consequence of ignoring the situation. A situation that only people who live outside their world pay attention to when something like this happens. Riots are a cry for help. And I'm not talking gov handouts.

T
he story isn't the riot, nor the shooting.
HA, that is like saying , "the story is the bank having all that money--not the robbery"!!! ..
Sometimes, I wonder just how much of the rot you type out, you truly believe.-Tyr

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

08-16-2016, 07:25 AM

That's complete horseshit. Try being white in an impoverished community. It's no different at ground level except the politics and media. We're still just as poor.

Try fixing the system instead of pointing the finger at a color.
Pete completely ignores we whites that grew up in poverty yet somehow did not turn out to be free-loading, savage criminal types begging for more freebies everyday, selling drugs, running prostitutes and stealing cars and blaming all their vices ad evils on others.
While avoiding personal responsibility for their own actions like the plague.
Such is the way of the world for the raving lib/leftist/socialist types methinks .-Tyr

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 07:32 AM

Pete completely ignores we whites that grew up in poverty yet somehow did not turn out to be free-loading, savage criminal types begging for more freebies everyday, selling drugs, running prostitutes and stealing cars and blaming all their vices ad evils on others.
While avoiding personal responsibility for their own actions like the plague.
Such is the way of the world for the raving lib/leftist/socialist types methinks .-Tyr

I was going to go in that direction if the discussion continued.

Something to consider though is that of young, white, men that are arrested most often were born into and remained in the lower socioeconomic groups. More likely not to have a father in the home. Had low attendance records in school and consistently underperformed in schools after grade 3.

Socioeconomic level born into is one of the strongest predictors of future performance. When held constant, the huge differences in academic and criminality shrink to much closer levels.

pete311

08-16-2016, 08:25 AM

Actually you spent quite a bit of your time blowing your own horn, putting me and others down, and being a pompous ass without adding anything but snark. However, I'll play for now.

I disagree, with decriminalizing drugs-they are a scourge in poverty areas. Prison reform has a place, but isn't a panacea for long term change, regardless of it being brought up often. One caveat to both of my points, which has more to do with sentencing than prison reform, service programs for first/second convictions for drug use only. Not something like cleaning up a park though-something where there are either real work experience gained or serving others less fortunate. One of the hardest parts of being on lower socioeconomic groups is to be given the opportunity to realize that there are others in worse shape. Might be handicapped or wounded vets or the elderly. Might be a kid that needs a 'mentor' which sounds counter-intuitive but has worked with the proper supervision.

After school programs haven't been terribly successful, indeed often are an invitation for gang recruitment. Night school for those who've dropped out of regular school or need remedial help to pass GED or get skills for a job? Excellent. Of course those would be for 17 and up.

When you play in a snake pit, sometimes you gotta bite back ;)

The drug war is a major reason for the state of the black community. Putting people behind bars for a dime bag of weed is outrageous when white controlled industries like alcohol, tobacco and prescription meds exist. Addiction is a medical problem. Start treating it like one. No one wants to be a crack head. Give them health services instead of jail time.

A prison sentence is generally disaster. Hard to get a job once out. No resources when out. I remember watching a 20/20 where a guy got out after 10 years. They gave him $40 and a bus ticket and said good luck. You don't think he's likely to end up right back in there? Night school is a great idea. I've been thinking about volunteering to help review resumes.

pete311

08-16-2016, 08:32 AM

Just to be clear, turning toward the officer with a pistol (not a gun. Learn the difference) in hand
or reaching for it is a direct threat to that cop. The Cop has 2 -3 seconds to respond. What if he waits?
Dead Cop.

Gun = Single shot pistol, meaning even with double action.
Gun = a cannon, single shot as on a tank or deck gun on a ship.

You are not as smart as you play up to be.

According to this
http://www.differencebetween.net/object/difference-between-pistol-and-handgun/

A pistol is a sub type of hand "gun".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun
"A gun is a normally tubular weapon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapon) or other device designed to discharge projectiles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projectile) or other material"

Either way, the difference is not important here and you're just trying to be difficult.

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 08:36 AM

When you play in a snake pit, sometimes you gotta bite back ;)

The drug war is a major reason for the state of the black community. Putting people behind bars for a dime bag of weed is outrageous when white controlled industries like alcohol, tobacco and prescription meds exist. Addiction is a medical problem. Start treating it like one. No one wants to be a crack head. Give them health services instead of jail time.

A prison sentence is generally disaster. Hard to get a job once out. No resources when out. I remember watching a 20/20 where a guy got out after 10 years. They gave him $40 and a bus ticket and said good luck. You don't think he's likely to end up right back in there? Night school is a great idea. I've been thinking about volunteering to help review resumes.

Problem with your new focus on prison reform, it fails to bring up solutions to why people turn to drugs in the first place. It is a symptom of dysfunction, then a cause. It's not one of the main issues facing those in poverty.

1. Lack of education and parents that do not put an emphasis on attaining one.
2. Lack of fathers and male role models in said communities
3. Glamorization of the money to be had in illegal ways
4. Lack of attention to the evidence that 'easy money' leads most often to death or incarceration
5. Failure to provide the experiences that lead children to have aspirations and the self-confidence to achieve them

Just a few, again there's more that have been shown to be related indicators that often are present in children that succeed in spite of their socioeconomic conditions. They hold a different set of values than the vast majority of their communities.

pete311

08-16-2016, 08:36 AM

Will they participate? Will their parents be there to make sure they do? There is
the problem. Inner city black parents sit on their asses and assume society will raise
their spawn.

If the programs are run well, fun and beneficial. Ask a hood kid what they want to be when they grow up. They won't tell you crack head, pimp, drug lord, prison girlfriend. They want options and opportunities to step out of the system. A system where everything around them enforces a lifestyle no child would choose. You blame parents, sure, but it's generational now. Something needs to be done to break the cycle and pointing fingers isn't it.

pete311

08-16-2016, 08:38 AM

That's complete horseshit. Try being white in an impoverished community. It's no different at ground level except the politics and media. We're still just as poor.

Try fixing the system instead of pointing the finger at a color.

I'm sorry but there is a difference between poor white and black communities and if you don't know it, then you haven't spent significant time in a black community.

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 08:38 AM

pete311

08-16-2016, 08:43 AM

Problem with your new focus on prison reform, it fails to bring up solutions to why people turn to drugs in the first place. It is a symptom of dysfunction, then a cause. It's not one of the main issues facing those in poverty.

1. Lack of education and parents that do not put an emphasis on attaining one.
2. Lack of fathers and male role models in said communities
3. Glamorization of the money to be had in illegal ways
4. Lack of attention to the evidence that 'easy money' leads most often to death or incarceration
5. Failure to provide the experiences that lead children to have aspirations and the self-confidence to achieve them

Just a few, again there's more that have been shown to be related indicators that often are present in children that succeed in spite of their socioeconomic conditions. They hold a different set of values than the vast majority of their communities.

I'm just spit balling here, I don't have a comprehensive solution, that is for the sociologists. But I agree with you. Drugs are a symptom. They are an escape. People in healthy living situations don't often get addicted to drugs. Seattle has a new program where they work individually with low level drug users instead of treating them like dirt and the results have been stunning: http://www.drugpolicy.org/news/2015/04/report-seattles-new-approach-low-level-drug-offenses-produces-nearly-60-reduction-recid

The problem is there is no easy 12 step plan to inner city reform. It's a 50 step plan and it takes enormous collaboration, resources and political courage. Every resident however can do a small part and volunteer in these communities once a week for a couple hours. If everyone did that, it would be a massive massive difference.

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 08:48 AM

I'm just spit balling here, I don't have a comprehensive solution, that is for the sociologists. But I agree with you. Drugs are a symptom. They are an escape. People in healthy living situations don't often get addicted to drugs. Seattle has a new program where they work individually with low level drug users instead of treating them like dirt and the results have been stunning: http://www.drugpolicy.org/news/2015/04/report-seattles-new-approach-low-level-drug-offenses-produces-nearly-60-reduction-recid

The problem is there is no easy 12 step plan to inner city reform. It's a 50 step plan and it takes enormous collaboration, resources and political courage. Every resident however can do a small part and volunteer in these communities once a week for a couple hours. If everyone did that, it would be a massive massive difference.

Again, you are not addressing what are solutions to the environment that leads to those that do not value education; have no goals, much less the ability to form plans that would be personal solutions to climbing out of their situations.

Instead you want to provide excuses and rail about the results. That's been done over and over again, with no improvements for those that are in the situation.

Seems to help your own self-esteem though.

pete311

08-16-2016, 08:53 AM

There are a few that play your game there that I bolded. You are just like them, just inside out. Lots of name calling and pronouncements of how you are so superior, painting everyone else as inferior.

I am superior to those who are racist, degrading, finger pointing, not educated on the issues and not willing to be part of the solution.

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 08:55 AM

I am superior to those who are racist, degrading, finger pointing, not educated on the issues and not willing to be part of the solution.

You think you're referring to others here, but it also pertains to those you condescendingly are purporting to be concerned about.

Now that's pretty much a definition of a 'bleeding heart.' All lamenting others, while propping yourself up.

Gunny

08-16-2016, 08:57 AM

I was going to go in that direction if the discussion continued.

Something to consider though is that of young, white, men that are arrested most often were born into and remained in the lower socioeconomic groups. More likely not to have a father in the home. Had low attendance records in school and consistently underperformed in schools after grade 3.

Socioeconomic level born into is one of the strongest predictors of future performance. When held constant, the huge differences in academic and criminality shrink to much closer levels.

I completely agree but let's call it what it is. Class warfare. Got nothing to do with race. The race baiters have just made a living off of a red herring. They have convinced people they are entitled because of skin color and white people hold them down. And people believe that crap. THAT is what gets me. Can't see through the ploy to the end game.

What do Sharpton and Jackson actually do? They aren't handing out money. They want us to pay for a contrived evil while living a life of luxury.

pete311

08-16-2016, 09:01 AM

Again, you are not addressing what are solutions to the environment that leads to those that do not value education; have no goals, much less the ability to form plans that would be personal solutions to climbing out of their situations.

All the issues we've mentioned are intertwined like the disintegration of the family structure, rise of street culture, loss of jobs, etc etc. I am not a sociologist, but what I do know doesn't work is racist degrading finger pointing and tell someone to shape up. You think that is a better route than actually debating the real issues?

pete311

08-16-2016, 09:03 AM

You think you're referring to others here, but it also pertains to those you condescendingly are purporting to be concerned about.

Now that's pretty much a definition of a 'bleeding heart.' All lamenting others, while propping yourself up.

A bleeding heart is overcome by compassion and not rational. I'm the only one trying to engage in debate over real issues instead of finger waging and name calling. If that is a bleeding heart, then yes I am one.

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 09:06 AM

I completely agree but let's call it what it is. Class warfare. Got nothing to do with race. The race baiters have just made a living off of a red herring. They have convinced people they are entitled because of skin color and white people hold them down. And people believe that crap. THAT is what gets me. Can't see through the ploy to the end game.

What do Sharpton and Jackson actually do? They aren't handing out money. They want us to pay for a contrived evil while living a life of luxury.

There wouldn't be 'class warfare' if folks wouldn't let the conversations go that way. Bottom line is that people get out of poverty by rejecting the mindset of poverty and it isn't easy. Getting rid of the anger or at least channeling it into propulsion to achieving. In order to move towards achievement though, self-esteem and self-direction have to be coupled with self-discipline. These can only happen when one is given the opportunities to meet goals that can be met through effort. It may be learning to picking up your toys, making your bed, putting garbage in it's place. It entails helping others-service. None of which needs to cost money. An easy excuse for no action is that 'they have more than me.' Not necessarily true.

The problem with the Pete's and those burning their own neighborhoods down is they are looking for someone else to do what needs to come from within.

pete311

08-16-2016, 09:07 AM

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 09:10 AM

It is racial. You think the civil rights movement ended in the 60s?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/13/how-we-built-the-ghettos.html

Sharpton and Jackson are corrupt fools.

There you go again.

Have you taken an untrained sociological eye to the demographics of criminals and race? Not huge differences when looking at the significant factors.

Gunny

08-16-2016, 09:19 AM

It is racial. You think the civil rights movement ended in the 60s?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/13/how-we-built-the-ghettos.html

Sharpton and Jackson are corrupt fools.

It should have. That was almost 60 years ago? The Civil War ended in 1865? I think blacks have had more than a chance to get their asses up and act like the rest of us.

As I said, it's a red herring. There's no real anything there. Do you owe me because I grew up poor? Or did I get off my ass and do something about it? In reverse, Sharpton and Jackson owe me. They live rich lifestyles on a lie while I have to dig in the dirt to make an honest living.

So who exactly owes who here?

pete311

08-16-2016, 09:26 AM

The problem with the Pete's and those burning their own neighborhoods down is they are looking for someone else to do what needs to come from within.

Haha so I am grouped in with the rioters now? Hilarious. I'll spend the money to fly you in to Milwaukee and take you to Sherman Park where the riot happened. You can then meet the people in the community. I'd love to hear you tell the local crack head he doesn't need outside help, to overcome the addiction on his own. To tell the malnourished kid living on ketchup packets he doesn't need outside help, that he needs to overcome his hunger himself. To tell the single mother of 4 working 3 jobs and that is why she's never home that she needs to overcome the lack of hours in a day and read to her kids. To tell a man who just got out of jail after 5 years for selling a dime bad of weed to feed himself that he must overcome his stigma, homelessness and lack of skills. Trust me, there are bad apples. Remember I live 1/2 mile from the riot. I deal with crime and idiots all day long, but there is hope and plenty of good people trapped in a system that you can't understand unless you are in it and yes part of that is being black. No man is an island. We need each other. We need community involvement. We need just policies and working together instead of isolation, finger pointing and condemnation.

pete311

08-16-2016, 09:28 AM

There you go again.

Have you taken an untrained sociological eye to the demographics of criminals and race? Not huge differences when looking at the significant factors.

Source? Not really sure what you are saying.

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 09:29 AM

Source? Not really sure what you are saying.

Surely someone with the interests you hold so dear would be capable of doing a bit of research regarding what you claim to be certainties?

pete311

08-16-2016, 09:29 AM

It should have. That was almost 60 years ago? The Civil War ended in 1865? I think blacks have had more than a chance to get their asses up and act like the rest of us.

You think just because some laws were added that people we suddenly ok with blacks? It just meant racism went underground. Read the link.

pete311

08-16-2016, 09:30 AM

Surely someone with the interests you hold so dear would be capable of doing a bit of research regarding what you claim to be certainties?

Except I don't know what you are getting at. That there are equal amounts of black and white criminals?

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 09:36 AM

Except I don't know what you are getting at. That there are equal amounts of black and white criminals?

Last time I'll state the obvious if one reads the above conversation.

The culture of poverty, not racism is the better predictor of future problems regarding both addictions and criminal behaviors. Addictions and criminality are symptoms of the problem, not a cause.

Giving money will not end poverty-check out those that won lotteries but kept the thinking of their pasts.

Break the culture of poverty mindset and legal success becomes possible, even likely. Check out those that do succeed in spite of the poverty they were born into. They weren't lucky, they worked and somehow rejected the cultural thinking.

That's where change starts.

Gunny

08-16-2016, 09:42 AM

You think just because some laws were added that people we suddenly ok with blacks? It just meant racism went underground. Read the link.

There always racism. Since the beginning of time. Racism has hardly gone underground. Blacks blame every problem they have on whites.

You can't fix a problem if you can't address the actual problem. Do you you think poor whites have it any better? Nah. We're trailer park trash racists while racist blacks who blame everything on the color of our skin are as pure as the driven snow? You are the delusional liars. Why we sit back and take it beats me. That guilt trip sh*t don't work on me.

Get out and get a job that doesn't include dealing drugs and robbing convenience stores. Y'all are the creation of your own mess and just want to blame whites same as you think I owe you.

Go back to Africa. They'll love your ass their. And I give you less than 2 weeks. You couldn't survive. Your a spoiled, entitled American. You couldn't hang.

pete311

08-16-2016, 09:42 AM

Last time I'll state the obvious if one reads the above conversation.

The culture of poverty, not racism is the better predictor of future problems regarding both addictions and criminal behaviors. Addictions and criminality are symptoms of the problem, not a cause.

Giving money will not end poverty-check out those that won lotteries but kept the thinking of their pasts.

Break the culture of poverty mindset and legal success becomes possible, even likely. Check out those that do succeed in spite of the poverty they were born into. They weren't lucky, they worked and somehow rejected the cultural thinking.

That's where change starts.

Now who's acting pompous?

I generally agree with you, but the inner city poverty was/is supported by racist policies and perception. White and black poor communities were not created the same way.

Gunny

08-16-2016, 09:45 AM

pete311

08-16-2016, 09:47 AM

So get out. Worked for me. Or wallow in your own swill.

Your comments show you don't understand the issues or reality.

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 09:48 AM

Now who's acting pompous?

I generally agree with you, but the inner city poverty was/is supported by racist policies and perception. White and black poor communities were not created the same way.

I'm nearly always pompous with those that act superior to others based upon their preconceived notions, otherwise known as prejudices. Sometimes I just get mean. I've nothing to prove with you, you chose to respond after you made blanket 'certainty' posts with no idea if what you claimed was based upon more than your own perceptions.

I don't doubt your 'feelings' on wanting to better things, just pointing out that you might want to actually get some education if you hope to make any real change. So far you fail to even be able to differentiate between causes and effects.

You pop in now and again to rail at others here, not having a clue to others experiences, just go with what you 'feel.' Good luck with that in real life.

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 09:52 AM

Now who's acting pompous?

I generally agree with you, but the inner city poverty was/is supported by racist policies and perception. White and black poor communities were not created the same way.

I forgot to respond to this:
I generally agree with you, but the inner city poverty was/is supported by racist policies and perception. White and black poor communities were not created the same way.

Actually 'inner city poverty' was created pretty much along the same lines, though at different times. The poor were pushed up and out of the most blighted areas, by the newest group(s) moving into the city. The only difference that blacks experienced was the "War on Poverty" created a new wrinkle of encouraging women raising children alone, thus removing male models. A serious problem though not one that could not be addressed.

Gunny

08-16-2016, 09:58 AM

Your comments show you don't understand the issues or reality.

I understand reality really well. I was as poor growing up as anyone else. I didn't know what racism was until my dad got stationed in DC and blacks were the racists, not me. It took me awhile to figure out it was because I was white. Blacks are assholes and as racist as anything you think we are.

You create your own situation. So you are the one that doesn't know what's going on,

Gunny

08-16-2016, 10:07 AM

And speaking of black, that mouthy SOB on First Take would get bitch slapped talking to me the way he does and being black wouldn't protect him. I could give a f- less what color his skin is. Idiots come in all shapes, sizes and colors.

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 10:09 AM

I didn't grow up poor. The blacks I knew didn't either. For the most part our lives pretty much took the same trajectories, which makes sense since our parents pretty much provided for us and held similar goals for their children.

Not everyone in poverty is predestined to be poor. Not everyone raised with middle class or higher status values will be successful. We all make choices, have gifts and limitations. It is easier though when the examples of success and opportunities are just the norm.

Gunny

08-16-2016, 10:28 AM

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 11:13 AM

I completely agree. My comments were about the racism crap. The opportunities are there. Take advantage of them. You think Ben Carson's white? The ability is there. It's the will that isn't.

Racism to a degree is used as an excuse for not succeeding, being held down, or demanding more just cause of 'racism.' I suppose those adopting 'white privilege' is an apology for one's birth happenstance? Pete seems to engender this thinking, then again maybe he's not white and is actually a minority? I didn't see him answer my direct query on such.

We all notice skin color, whether it's about race or hue within a race. At times and among certain groups being 'lighter' or 'darker' is seen as a positive indicator of status, purity, or some other feature.

Some are taught to hate others based upon race from their parents or their social milieu. Others don't make judgements based upon color, though it is noticed. No one is colorblind, other than those that are literally and that usually doesn't include skin tones.

There are racists across all the races.

pete311

08-16-2016, 11:52 AM

I know you guys won't watch this but I'll throw it out there
https://www.facebook.com/theconsciousandaware/videos/891969327561946/

jimnyc

08-16-2016, 11:53 AM

I don't believe they know he pointed the gun at the officer. Last I read he was fleeing with the gun. Also it's a big deal when a cop kills a civilian. They are to protect. Cops are not trusted in these areas. That is a problem. Remember even my black neighbor was thrown face first into the ground for entering his own home.

I would believe that subduing an armed criminal IS protecting the people in that neighborhood. And you say "I don't believe they know..." And if "they" don't, then neither do the citizens - then WHY are they protesting and rioting?

It's not ok to break laws, it's also not ok to have unjust laws that target minorities.

Conservative Rand Paul even sees it
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/06/24/rand-paul-marijuana-arrests-column/2452259/

Perhaps they should FOCUS. People being arrested for marijuana laws has JACK SHIT to do with people destroying a neighborhood and attacking white people.

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 11:54 AM

I know you guys won't watch this but I'll throw it out there
https://www.facebook.com/theconsciousandaware/videos/891969327561946/

I thought I'd take a look. Elizabeth Warren? The 'I'm a Native American if I can get a tenured position doing so?' Yeah, LOL! She 'really cares' so much she'll lie.

Elessar

08-16-2016, 12:00 PM

It's not about right and wrong. It's about doing what needs to be done to turn around black communities. You can sit here and judge all you want and guess what, in 50 years nothing will change. OR we can bite our lip and do what needs to be done. That is full engagement and participation working together to create policies, services and volunteer efforts to turn the communities around.

That is just plain stupid thinking. Until THEY are willing to correct their behavior,
nothing from the outside will matter. And that point is obvious.

pete311

08-16-2016, 12:05 PM

That is just plain stupid thinking. Until THEY are willing to correct their behavior,
nothing from the outside will matter. And that point is obvious.

How does a fighting dog correct its own behavior? It needs outside training and a safe environment to thrive.

Watch this link
https://www.facebook.com/theconsciousandaware/videos/891969327561946/

Elessar

08-16-2016, 12:07 PM

Just to be clear, turning towards the officer is not the same as pointing the gun at the officer.

Bullshit, Pete...when told to drop or not touch the pistol that criminal should have complied.
A Cop has 2-3 seconds response time unless they want to get shot. Have you ever taken a
police judgemental pistol course? I doubt you have.

pete311

08-16-2016, 12:10 PM

Bullshit, Pete...when told to drop or not touch the pistol that criminal should have complied.
A Cop has 2-3 seconds response time unless they want to get shot. Have you ever taken a
police judgemental pistol course? I doubt you have.

I have not once held an opinion on the shooting. I know the engagement law. I'm just making the point clear that it was reported the man turned towards the cop, but not reported he ever raised the gun at him. Get off your horse.

jimnyc

08-16-2016, 12:12 PM

Bullshit, Pete...when told to drop or not touch the pistol that criminal should have complied.
A Cop has 2-3 seconds response time unless they want to get shot. Have you ever taken a
police judgemental pistol course? I doubt you have.

That's correct. Some seem to think that since there has been much racial injustice over the years - that maybe folks like this guy should fall under a different set of rules. Or that other criminals should get a pass. THAT kind of shit needs to change no matter what else changes in the community. And sending in money or other kinds of help doesn't have anything to do with this. That's simply common sense, and being taught to respect the law, the police and have decency about one's self.

For example... look at folks now, attacking whites, stating to go to the suburbs to burn their stuff down. It's common sense that this is illegal, and that the people they are targeting have NOTHING to do with anything that happened. But they do it anyway, time after time after time. And why? Because effing excuses are made for them time after time!

Elessar

08-16-2016, 12:12 PM

jimnyc

08-16-2016, 12:13 PM

I have not once held an opinion on the shooting. I know the engagement law. I'm just making the point clear that it was reported the man turned towards the cop, but not reported he ever raised the gun at him. Get off your horse.

Even if he didn't raise it, he should have dropped it, that's MORE than enough to make it a legit shooting. It was HIM who needed to get off his criminal horse, and I think the bullet that hit this thug did just that, he got EXACTLY what he deserved. There was NOTHING AT ALL for anyone to be angry about in this shooting, but burning shit down cannot be stopped!

jimnyc

08-16-2016, 12:14 PM

That is insane! Doing that adds to the problems and does nothing to resolve them.
Better try again.

But, but, but... Ron Paul and Gary Johnson think it's a great idea!!

pete311

08-16-2016, 12:19 PM

That is insane! Doing that adds to the problems and does nothing to resolve them.
Better try again.

But you have no problem with white legal controlled drugs like alcohol, tobacco (nicotine) and prescription opiates right? Those white legal drugs kill way more people than the illegal drugs. The war on drugs was lost a long time ago. Addiction is a medical issue, not criminal.

pete311

08-16-2016, 12:22 PM

Even if he didn't raise it, he should have dropped it, that's MORE than enough to make it a legit shooting. It was HIM who needed to get off his criminal horse, and I think the bullet that hit this thug did just that, he got EXACTLY what he deserved. There was NOTHING AT ALL for anyone to be angry about in this shooting, but burning shit down cannot be stopped!

I didn't know the man. Not saying he was a good man, not saying the shot wasn't legal or justified, but I think it's rash to declare this man deserved to die. People are not rioting over this singular event. It's decades in the making. This event was the ignition for the fuel tank that has been filling over the years.

Elessar

08-16-2016, 12:25 PM

I have not once held an opinion on the shooting. I know the engagement law. I'm just making the point clear that it was reported the man turned towards the cop, but not reported he ever raised the gun at him. Get off your horse.

I'll remain on my horse because YOU have no idea what you are talking about.

If you know the engagement law, recite it! You've never taken that course, have you?

jimnyc

08-16-2016, 12:25 PM

I didn't know the man. Not saying he was a good man, not saying the shot wasn't legal or justified, but I think it's rash to declare this man deserved to die. People are not rioting over this singular event. It's decades in the making. This event was the ignition for the fuel tank that has been filling over the years.

He DIDN'T deserve to die - but HIS OWN actions made it so that this tragedy took place. HIS OWN ACTIONS.

Same as the burning and attacks - ALL THEIR ACTIONS.

If they want to riot from shit from over the years, at least figure out a way to do so towards people that harmed them. Why attack innocent people, and businesses of their neighbors? And rioting and such from things over years and years - that's similar to some who expect some sort of reparations over so many years and years, which is absolutely retarded at even the thought.

pete311

08-16-2016, 12:26 PM

pete311

08-16-2016, 12:26 PM

I'll remain on my horse because YOU have no idea what you are talking about.

What have I gotten wrong?

pete311

08-16-2016, 12:29 PM

He DIDN'T deserve to die - but HIS OWN actions made it so that this tragedy took place. HIS OWN ACTIONS.

Same as the burning and attacks - ALL THEIR ACTIONS.

If they want to riot from shit from over the years, at least figure out a way to do so towards people that harmed them. Why attack innocent people, and businesses of their neighbors? And rioting and such from things over years and years - that's similar to some who expect some sort of reparations over so many years and years, which is absolutely retarded at even the thought.

You don't have any argument from me on this. I never once supported the riot nor said the shooting wasn't justified. When you help create an environment for animals you shouldn't be surprised when they act like an animal.

Elessar

08-16-2016, 12:29 PM

But, but, but... Ron Paul and Gary Johnson think it's a great idea!!

Screw Them. They are a large part of the problem, and the weak druggies
suck up to them.

jimnyc

08-16-2016, 12:29 PM

The number of drug deaths in the US in a typical year is as follows:

Tobacco kills about 390,000.
Alcohol kills about 80,000.
Sidestream smoke from tobacco kills about 50,000.
Cocaine kills about 2,200.
Heroin kills about 2,000.
Aspirin kills about 2,000.
Marijuana kills 0.

Yeah those illegal drugs man, they're killing everyone!

There is ZERO ZERO need to legalize heroin and methamphetamines, just for starters

Drug-Induced Deaths1 46,471

http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/30#sthash.QKRvvSd7.dpbs

pete311

08-16-2016, 12:34 PM

There is ZERO ZERO need to legalize heroin and methamphetamines, just for starters

Drug-Induced Deaths1 46,471

http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/30#sthash.QKRvvSd7.dpbs

My sister in law is a serious heroin addict. When you at least decriminalize you shift funding from law enforcement to health services which is what is needed. My sister in law is not a criminal. She does not belong in jail. She needs medical attention and believe me she is not getting it and it's not because she's not trying. Addiction is not criminal, it's a medical issue that requires treatment and not jail and fines.

Elessar

08-16-2016, 12:34 PM

What have I gotten wrong?

Never answered my question on judgemental shooting.
Put yourself in the Cop's place. See how you would react.
Curl up in a ball and hope the criminal does not shoot you?

Never responded correctly to legalizing all drugs. You support
all these thugs dealing and using drugs? Where is YOUR solution?

pete311

08-16-2016, 12:37 PM

Never answered my question on judgemental shooting.
Put yourself in the Cop's place. See how you would react.
Curl up in a ball and hope the criminal does not shoot you?

Never responded correctly to legalizing all drugs. You support
all these thugs dealing and using drugs? Where is YOUR solution?

What are you talking about. I never argued against the cops judgement. The cop has a right to shoot if the suspect has a gun and is determined to be a dangerous threat. I understand that. Can we move on?

Take the market away from the thugs. What do you think happened in alcohol prohibition? Who controlled the booze? The mafia thugs. Duh

Elessar

08-16-2016, 12:41 PM

pete311

08-16-2016, 12:44 PM

Was it her choice to get hooked on smack, or was it the public's choice? That is on her,
not everyone else.

What does that have to do with addiction being a medical condition and effect of decriminalizing street drugs to shift funds to medical care and treatment?

fj1200

08-16-2016, 12:46 PM

All the issues we've mentioned are intertwined like the disintegration of the family structure, rise of street culture, loss of jobs, etc etc. I am not a sociologist, but what I do know doesn't work is racist degrading finger pointing and tell someone to shape up. You think that is a better route than actually debating the real issues?

The problem with the Pete's and those burning their own neighborhoods down is they are looking for someone else to do what needs to come from within.

I don't think you two are that far apart. There is clearly a government component that caused the issues today and there has to be a government component to fix what has been wrought.

Elessar

08-16-2016, 12:47 PM

What are you talking about. I never argued against the cops judgement. The cop has a right to shoot if the suspect has a gun and is determined to be a dangerous threat. I understand that. Can we move on?

Take the market away from the thugs. What do you think happened in alcohol prohibition? Who controlled the booze? The mafia thugs. Duh

You're all over the map once again.

Duh indeed. Prohibition fueled the marijuana 'industry'. My Dad was raised in Al Capone's
neighborhood in Cicero, IL. The liquor and brewery industry forced the criminalization of MJ once
Prohibition was rescinded. They saw it as a threat to their profits.

pete311

08-16-2016, 12:50 PM

Duh indeed. Prohibition fueled the marijuana 'industry'. My Dad was raised in Al Capone's
neighborhood in Cicero, IL. The liquor and brewery industry forced the criminalization of MJ once
Prohibition was rescinded. They saw it as a threat to their profits.

We agree on that and the liquor industry is still one of the major forces keeping MJ illegal.

Elessar

08-16-2016, 12:50 PM

What does that have to do with addiction being a medical condition and effect of decriminalizing street drugs to shift funds to medical care and treatment?

What do you want addressed? Your SIL's choice to take up smack or taking down the dealers?
Again, all over the map. Take down the damn dealers.

I have a rock in my driveway that is smarter than your arguments.

pete311

08-16-2016, 12:55 PM

What do you want addressed? Your SIL's choice to take up smack or taking down the dealers?
Again, all over the map. Take down the damn dealers.

The war on drugs has been trying for decades and lost. People want the product. There will always be people to deliver it. Decriminalize or legalize it. Take away the street market. Tax it and push funds into health services. No child responds to the question of what do you want to be when you grow up with "a crack head". As long as white controlled drugs are legal and killing by the hundreds of thousands there is no excuse not to at least decriminalize street drugs. Let people get high if they want, aren't you about freedom? If they want to get treatment, give them lots of options and end the stigma and shame. Don't throw them in jail. It's costly to us and ends their options real quick.

Elessar

08-16-2016, 01:04 PM

The war on drugs has been trying for decades and lost. People want the product. There will always be people to deliver it. Decriminalize or legalize it. Take away the street market. Tax it and push funds into health services. No child responds to the question of what do you want to be when you grow up with "a crack head". As long as white controlled drugs are legal and killing by the hundreds of thousands there is no excuse not to at least decriminalize street drugs. Let people get high if they want, aren't you about freedom? If they want to get treatment, give them lots of options and end the stigma and shame. Don't throw them in jail. It's costly to us and ends their options real quick.

Right....so they lay on their asses, get high, then assault, burglarize, steal, and kill to get more
ill-gotten money and property to fuel the addiction. What is white-controlled drugs? Control comes from
Mexican mobs and black dealers on the largest part.

That's your solution, Pete?

No incitive given to stand up straight and act like a part of the greater
society? You are a part of the problem by being an enabler.

pete311

08-16-2016, 01:10 PM

Right....so they lay on their asses, get high, then assault, burglarize, steal, and kill to get more
ill-gotten money and property to fuel the addiction. What is white-controlled drugs? Control comes from
Mexican mobs and black dealers on the largest part.

That's your solution, Pete?

No incitive given to stand up straight and act like a part of the greater
society? You are a part of the problem by being an enabler.

White controlled drugs are alcohol, Tobacco and prescription drugs.

Give the addicted options for treatment. Right now they have to live in the shadows or risk going to jail. Few want to be addicted.

pete311

08-16-2016, 01:11 PM

Portugal decriminalized all drugs a few years back
https://mic.com/articles/110344/14-years-after-portugal-decriminalized-all-drugs-here-s-what-s-happening

jimnyc

08-16-2016, 01:19 PM

My sister in law is a serious heroin addict. When you at least decriminalize you shift funding from law enforcement to health services which is what is needed. My sister in law is not a criminal. She does not belong in jail. She needs medical attention and believe me she is not getting it and it's not because she's not trying. Addiction is not criminal, it's a medical issue that requires treatment and not jail and fines.

Sure, there does need to be more done to concentrate on addicts. I was addicted to opiates after my surgery. Maybe implement more things to help addicts looking for assistance. I have no issue with trying to help folks.

But if someone is in possession of heroin, I'm sorry, but they are also a criminal. Same with meth, and cocaine, and other synthetic type drugs. Legalizing them won't help as it will only lead to easier access for the addicted, and the non-addicted. Maybe they should implement help in parallel, for those truly looking for a way out of their predicaments. And I also believe the lions share of criminality should be pointed at the dealers.

Elessar

08-16-2016, 01:20 PM

White controlled drugs are alcohol, Tobacco and prescription drugs.

Give the addicted options for treatment. Right now they have to live in the shadows or risk going to jail. Few want to be addicted.

This has gone far off topic, but I know the steps for treatment are simple.
The individual has to seek treatment unless a court decision demands it.
The risks of using that crap are well known. Too bad some do not listen to
or comprehend the risks. Is that society's fault? No! That is the person.

Take down the dealers and begin the steps to cleanse things.

My last on this particular part unless you want to open a new thread elsewhere.

pete311

08-16-2016, 01:24 PM

But if someone is in possession of heroin, I'm sorry, but they are also a criminal. Same with meth, and cocaine, and other synthetic type drugs. Legalizing them won't help as it will only lead to easier access for the addicted, and the non-addicted. Maybe they should implement help in parallel, for those truly looking for a way out of their predicaments. And I also believe the lions share of criminality should be pointed at the dealers.

The addicted will get the fix no matter what and the easier the more safer. Make it hard on them and they have to go to some alley to get mugged or given something that was cut with other chemicals. We already hand out methadone to herion addicts. The dealers will always exist if there is a market. That is econ 101 and we've been losing since day one. How do you justify alcohol and tobacco existing? Alcohol has done way more damage to my network than hard drugs ever has. Just last month an old classmate got wasted and drove up a highway exist and killed herself and an elderly couple. Where is the call to make alcohol illegal?

jimnyc

08-16-2016, 01:25 PM

Portugal decriminalized all drugs a few years back
https://mic.com/articles/110344/14-years-after-portugal-decriminalized-all-drugs-here-s-what-s-happening

Prescription pain killers are mainly legal in the US - and is also turning into one of the leading causes of deaths by drugs. Perhaps help folks in need - but decriminalizing drugs that I have pointed out is ASININE.

I agree 100% with everything revolving around helping addicts. But making drugs easier for kids to get, or for those very same addicts to get, is d-u-m-b.

pete311

08-16-2016, 01:28 PM

This has gone far off topic, but I know the steps for treatment are simple.
The individual has to seek treatment unless a court decision demands it.
The risks of using that crap are well known. Too bad some do not listen to
or comprehend the risks. Is that society's fault? No! That is the person.

Take down the dealers and begin the steps to cleanse things.

My last on this particular part unless you want to open a new thread elsewhere.

You'll never shut down dealers. Never. It's a losing battle. Bring addiction out in the open. Give addicts real treatment options. Make it safer to get high just like we make it safe to get a buzz off a drink or smoke. No one said it was anyone else's fault but their own, but as a society we do need to act. That is exactly the purpose of a society. That is the last I'll speak to you on this unless you want to open a new thread elsewhere.

jimnyc

08-16-2016, 01:29 PM

The addicted will get the fix no matter what and the easier the more safer. Make it hard on them and they have to go to some alley to get mugged or given something that was cut with other chemicals. We already hand out methadone to herion addicts. The dealers will always exist if there is a market. That is econ 101 and we've been losing since day one. How do you justify alcohol and tobacco existing? Alcohol has done way more damage to my network than hard drugs ever has. Just last month an old classmate got wasted and drove up a highway exist and killed herself and an elderly couple. Where is the call to make alcohol illegal?

Any substance that is killing people on a mass scale - less would be killed if it didn't exist, or was much harder to get. So yeah, MANY lives would be saved if those 2 were cut as well, you wouldn't get an argument from me. But alcohol simply isn't nearly addictive as heroin and meth, for example. Cigarettes, I think they're worse, and I would applaud anyone that got rid of them.

But I surely don't want society going backwards and having a society where people can legally by such deadly things.

Your relative won't be any less addicted or facing death if heroin was legalized. She may be able to get her hands on even more and die as a result. YES, she should have an opportunity to seek help if she chooses that route. And if so, she shouldn't be arrested for going to such a place. But I don't think the answer is to let her have easier access.

pete311

08-16-2016, 01:30 PM

Prescription pain killers are mainly legal in the US - and is also turning into one of the leading causes of deaths by drugs. Perhaps help folks in need - but decriminalizing drugs that I have pointed out is ASININE.

I agree 100% with everything revolving around helping addicts. But making drugs easier for kids to get, or for those very same addicts to get, is d-u-m-b.

What is dumb is continuing the war on drugs which pretty much everyone involved in knows is lost. Again, with the death stats how can you support booze and smokes being legal?

pete311

08-16-2016, 01:33 PM

Your relative won't be any less addicted or facing death if heroin was legalized. She may be able to get her hands on even more and die as a result. YES, she should have an opportunity to seek help if she chooses that route. And if so, she shouldn't be arrested for going to such a place. But I don't think the answer is to let her have easier access.

She has absolutely no problem now. She is desperate for real treatment. She is also bipolar schizophrenic. She can't get the help she needs until there are real treatment options. The funding isn't there as long as they are most interested in throwing her into jail which solves positively nothing.

jimnyc

08-16-2016, 01:34 PM

What is dumb is continuing the war on drugs which pretty much everyone involved in knows is lost. Again, with the death stats how can you support booze and smokes being legal?

I believe I answered you about the booze/smokes.

And why can't their be a war on illegal drugs, to try and keep them from killing people - AND - implement things as discussed to where these folks can get help before they kill themselves or end up in prison?

jimnyc

08-16-2016, 01:37 PM

She has absolutely no problem now. She is desperate for real treatment. She is also bipolar schizophrenic. She can't get the help she needs until there are real treatment options. The funding isn't there as long as they are most interested in throwing her into jail which solves positively nothing.

Pete, I am bipolar, and have hypomania, and I've done a LOT of drugs over the years, and even addicted. It was NO ONE'S fault but my own. Sure, it sucked to be faced with criminal actions over medication, but those laws are there to save lives and protect society.

I agree that it's VERY hard to get into a rehab unit today, and not a ton offered for the indigent as far as assistance is concerned. So maybe add some things to help. But I still disagree 100% with legalizing this shit as something that will help these folks.

pete311

08-16-2016, 01:38 PM

I believe I answered you about the booze/smokes.

And why can't their be a war on illegal drugs, to try and keep them from killing people - AND - implement things as discussed to where these folks can get help before they kill themselves or end up in prison?

How can you get proper help if you admit to doing something illegal? These people operate in a murky world of trying to get help and not out themselves as doing something illegal. The war is lost. The only ones benefiting from this war are the cartels.

jimnyc

08-16-2016, 01:43 PM

Any substance that is killing people on a mass scale - less would be killed if it didn't exist, or was much harder to get. So yeah, MANY lives would be saved if those 2 were cut as well, you wouldn't get an argument from me. But alcohol simply isn't nearly addictive as heroin and meth, for example. Cigarettes, I think they're worse, and I would applaud anyone that got rid of them.

But I surely don't want society going backwards and having a society where people can legally by such deadly things.

Your relative won't be any less addicted or facing death if heroin was legalized. She may be able to get her hands on even more and die as a result. YES, she should have an opportunity to seek help if she chooses that route. And if so, she shouldn't be arrested for going to such a place. But I don't think the answer is to let her have easier access.

How can you get proper help if you admit to doing something illegal? These people operate in a murky world of trying to get help and not out themselves as doing something illegal. The war is lost. The only ones benefiting from this war are the cartels.

Choices, Pete, choices.

But care to wager how many addicts prefer to stay addicted, and would rather take advantage of the new legal drugs law? When I was addicted, I would have avoided anything to continue getting high on drugs. It wasn't until I hit the withdrawal stage that I wanted help, and even then many/most turn back to the drugs to avoid the withdrawals - especially heroin users who hit that stage every 6-8 hours after their last whatever. I never did heroin, but that addiction is horrid, and I watched a few friends pass away from that shit.

pete311

08-16-2016, 01:43 PM

Pete, I am bipolar, and have hypomania, and I've done a LOT of drugs over the years, and even addicted. It was NO ONE'S fault but my own. Sure, it sucked to be faced with criminal actions over medication, but those laws are there to save lives and protect society.

I agree that it's VERY hard to get into a rehab unit today, and not a ton offered for the indigent as far as assistance is concerned. So maybe add some things to help. But I still disagree 100% with legalizing this shit as something that will help these folks.

I'm not waving off my sister in laws responsibility, but like many other things in society we need to setup proper system and institutions to deal with this issues instead of finger pointing and tell them to fuck off sucks for you.

I have not done the research on the effects of full legalization, but I am fully committed to decriminalization. This would also help the black communities where a man in my state can get 5 years for selling a dime bag of weed. I think we can all agree that is insane. Give him a fine and be on your way.

pete311

08-16-2016, 01:46 PM

Choices, Pete, choices.

But care to wager how many addicts prefer to stay addicted, and would rather take advantage of the new legal drugs law? When I was addicted, I would have avoided anything to continue getting high on drugs. It wasn't until I hit the withdrawal stage that I wanted help, and even then many/most turn back to the drugs to avoid the withdrawals - especially heroin users who hit that stage every 6-8 hours after their last whatever. I never did heroin, but that addiction is horrid, and I watched a few friends pass away from that shit.

I would argue most relapse because they don't have the full support they need. I'm not talking some out patient AA meetings. It will be costly but the money to support the programs come from the money saved from ending the war on drugs and shifting it to medical treatment services.

jimnyc

08-16-2016, 02:03 PM

I'm not waving off my sister in laws responsibility, but like many other things in society we need to setup proper system and institutions to deal with this issues instead of finger pointing and tell them to fuck off sucks for you.

I have not done the research on the effects of full legalization, but I am fully committed to decriminalization. This would also help the black communities where a man in my state can get 5 years for selling a dime bag of weed. I think we can all agree that is insane. Give him a fine and be on your way.

The change in marijuana laws are slowly on the way. I do agree with the change in those laws, but marijuana is not a chemical that will kill people. So we're on the same page with that one.

I would argue most relapse because they don't have the full support they need. I'm not talking some out patient AA meetings. It will be costly but the money to support the programs come from the money saved from ending the war on drugs and shifting it to medical treatment services.

The majority will choose drugs even if free, and non-jail free stuff is an option for them. Those drugs ARE that bad, especially heroin. I've seen folks having to spend $100-200 per day, and they don't work!! But they find a way, or they will be in a world of hurt. And they are afraid of that, so prefer to keep getting high than face the pain of rehab and withdrawals. Even rehab won't allow them to escape that misery of withdrawals. And you'll find similar with cocaine, meth and a bunch of other drugs that have severe withdrawals.

And YES, I believe they should be able to seek help, as opposed to keeping things going simply out of fear of the withdrawals. But once/if something like that were to be implemented, they would still need to make that final step and choose to get clean.

*so yes, ADD "medical treatment services" as you keep pointing out, but also keep things illegal. If faced with treatment, or LEGAL drugs, well I know what most will choose. Faced with treatment - or the option of living illegally day by day, not knowing how to get your next fix... treatment seems a little better than.

pete311

08-16-2016, 02:24 PM

The change in marijuana laws are slowly on the way. I do agree with the change in those laws, but marijuana is not a chemical that will kill people. So we're on the same page with that one.

The majority will choose drugs even if free, and non-jail free stuff is an option for them. Those drugs ARE that bad, especially heroin. I've seen folks having to spend $100-200 per day, and they don't work!! But they find a way, or they will be in a world of hurt. And they are afraid of that, so prefer to keep getting high than face the pain of rehab and withdrawals. Even rehab won't allow them to escape that misery of withdrawals. And you'll find similar with cocaine, meth and a bunch of other drugs that have severe withdrawals.

And YES, I believe they should be able to seek help, as opposed to keeping things going simply out of fear of the withdrawals. But once/if something like that were to be implemented, they would still need to make that final step and choose to get clean.

*so yes, ADD "medical treatment services" as you keep pointing out, but also keep things illegal. If faced with treatment, or LEGAL drugs, well I know what most will choose. Faced with treatment - or the option of living illegally day by day, not knowing how to get your next fix... treatment seems a little better than.

I generally agree with all of this. Money should be pumped into research for better withdrawal medications. I've seen my sister in law in withdrawal and it's brutal to watch.

Something else to consider is getting clean and the addiction under control is only the first step. Addiction is a life long illness. Most long time users use to escape something and often end up destroying their lives in the process. You can't simply get the clean and send them out the door. Just like prison release. They need post detox treatment, resources and programs to work on what drove them to use and to help keep to off by helping rebuild their lives. This is the problem with my sister in law. She's been in an out of treatments, hospitals and detox whatevers hundreds of times. You can't get clean and go right back into the environment that drove you to use drugs. A lot of this is on the user, but they still need extended care.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

08-16-2016, 02:28 PM

There wouldn't be 'class warfare' if folks wouldn't let the conversations go that way. Bottom line is that people get out of poverty by rejecting the mindset of poverty and it isn't easy. Getting rid of the anger or at least channeling it into propulsion to achieving. In order to move towards achievement though, self-esteem and self-direction have to be coupled with self-discipline. These can only happen when one is given the opportunities to meet goals that can be met through effort. It may be learning to picking up your toys, making your bed, putting garbage in it's place. It entails helping others-service. None of which needs to cost money. An easy excuse for no action is that 'they have more than me.' Not necessarily true.

The problem with the Pete's and those burning their own neighborhoods down is they are looking for someone else to do what needs to come from within.

Its always easier to go downstream. Its also far more tempting since man by Nature will seek the easiest path.
In the case of blacks, which Pete and his like use to gain advantage, wealth and power- the dem party has organized a plantation system to buy their votes and convince them that it is we evil white Republicans to blame for all their ills and grievances.
And just vote dem for the freebies, after all you deserve it because you've been so badly mistreated.

Pure fffing lies and bullshit but it sells big time and has kept the black race back for many decades now--all to the advantages of the monsters selling the damn lie.
Blacks are not inferior but they are easily mislead and easily tempted to just go with the flow, accept every freebie tossed their way(on our tax dollars) and keep voting in their masters!

Sad, tragic and a bitter reality but hey government, media, Hollywood and higher education(colleges) teach that its the truth.

Vicious cycle that dearly needs to be broken..
Never happen unless the dem party(that true monster) is utterly destroyed!
Another sad fact, easily proven to be true if one carefully examines the dem party and its platform and agenda.....-Tyr

jimnyc

08-16-2016, 02:36 PM

I generally agree with all of this. Money should be pumped into research for better withdrawal medications. I've seen my sister in law in withdrawal and it's brutal to watch.

Something else to consider is getting clean and the addiction under control is only the first step. Addiction is a life long illness. Most long time users use to escape something and often end up destroying their lives in the process. You can't simply get the clean and send them out the door. Just like prison release. They need post detox treatment, resources and programs to work on what drove them to use and to help keep to off by helping rebuild their lives. This is the problem with my sister in law. She's been in an out of treatments, hospitals and detox whatevers hundreds of times. You can't get clean and go right back into the environment that drove you to use drugs. A lot of this is on the user, but they still need extended care.

Right now, not much to help with withdrawals. I was on painkillers for like 3 months. The withdrawals from that small amount of time were worse than my neck injury, the surgery and everything that came along with it. I would have taken ANYTHING that gave me relief, but the only thing that may help is OTHER drugs that may slow your body down or knock you out instead of feeling the horrible effects. Another reason I'd just like to see certain drugs just disappear. Or somehow find shit that doesn't make people so addicted/dependent.

A lot of folks have extended issues with addiction, or are just addictive folks with everything, like myself. Hell, I'm addicted to coffee, and advil! I agree with that, having a therapist or a place to go for dual therapy is a great idea. Now that part isn't too hard and it's not that bad money wise. If an addict can afford $100 a day for heroin, surely once clean they can afford $40 a month for therapy - but they need to get that far.

Make rehabs more affordable
Make more rehabs
Outreach programs and places to "guide" an addict to being clean
KEEP it illegal, the WORST thing for any addict is the very drug that they are addicted to
And on that front, perhaps make it so that if someone truly reaches out and goes to such places, it's covered under all privacy laws and they cannot be arrested.

Getting rid of addicts will actually pay for the rehabs in the long run.

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 02:38 PM

I have not once held an opinion on the shooting. I know the engagement law. I'm just making the point clear that it was reported the man turned towards the cop, but not reported he ever raised the gun at him. Get off your horse.

Again, though reports may not be correct, but it's already said that the body video shows the criminal WAS raising the gun.

jimnyc

08-16-2016, 02:40 PM

Its always easier to go downstream. Its also far more tempting since man by Nature will seek the easiest path.
In the case of blacks, which Pete and his like use to gain advantage, wealth and power- the dem party has organized a plantation system to buy their votes and convince them that it is we evil white Republicans to blame for all their ills and grievances.
And just vote dem for the freebies, after all you deserve it because you've been so badly mistreated.

Pure fffing lies and bullshit but it sells big time and has kept the black race back for many decades now--all to the advantages of the monsters selling the damn lie.
Blacks are not inferior but they are easily mislead and easily tempted to just go with the flow, accept every freebie tossed their way(on our tax dollars) and keep voting in their masters!

Couldn't agree more!!

I hear a lot of talk for years and years about how evil the R's are, and how the Dems are good for black people. But just what have the evil republicans done to them? And what great things have the Dems done for them? (outside of freebies of course, which I hope they vote for them for more than that).

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 02:40 PM

Screw Them. They are a large part of the problem, and the weak druggies
suck up to them.

LOL! Yep, all their supporters are druggies! Better than being neo-fascists I guess.

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 02:42 PM

Was it her choice to get hooked on smack, or was it the public's choice? That is on her,
not everyone else.
and there's plenty of rehab places if one chooses to go.

Gunny

08-16-2016, 02:43 PM

Right now, not much to help with withdrawals. I was on painkillers for like 3 months. The withdrawals from that small amount of time were worse than my neck injury, the surgery and everything that came along with it. I would have taken ANYTHING that gave me relief, but the only thing that may help is OTHER drugs that may slow your body down or knock you out instead of feeling the horrible effects. Another reason I'd just like to see certain drugs just disappear. Or somehow find shit that doesn't make people so addicted/dependent.

A lot of folks have extended issues with addiction, or are just addictive folks with everything, like myself. Hell, I'm addicted to coffee, and advil! I agree with that, having a therapist or a place to go for dual therapy is a great idea. Now that part isn't too hard and it's not that bad money wise. If an addict can afford $100 a day for heroin, surely once clean they can afford $40 a month for therapy - but they need to get that far.

Make rehabs more affordable
Make more rehabs
Outreach programs and places to "guide" an addict to being clean
KEEP it illegal, the WORST thing for any addict is the very drug that they are addicted to
And on that front, perhaps make it so that if someone truly reaches out and goes to such places, it's covered under all privacy laws and they cannot be arrested.

Getting rid of addicts will actually pay for the rehabs in the long run.

Try quitting drinking. You and your toilet will become intimate. And before you get there you will lose everything.

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 02:44 PM

I don't think you two are that far apart. There is clearly a government component that caused the issues today and there has to be a government component to fix what has been wrought.

Honestly, it seems to me there's little to no reason for the government involvement. Perhaps some with costs in getting folks off drugs, though they should have to want to. Prison or rehab?

Most of what ails these communities could be dealt with by community or regions.

pete311

08-16-2016, 02:49 PM

Again, though reports may not be correct, but it's already said that the body video shows the criminal WAS raising the gun.

Got it, I see that now

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 02:49 PM

White controlled drugs are alcohol, Tobacco and prescription drugs.

Give the addicted options for treatment. Right now they have to live in the shadows or risk going to jail. Few want to be addicted.

Bullshit. Poor people are the smokers in significant numbers. It's almost like you just throw shit off the top of your head and call it a debate. Poor people also drink to excess and are less likely to get help when hitting bottom.

Again, I guess you just want to talk about your opinion on symptoms, argue that they should be 'legal,' then bemoan the additional lack of responsibilities these actions bring to the next generation born into poverty.

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 02:53 PM

How can you get proper help if you admit to doing something illegal? These people operate in a murky world of trying to get help and not out themselves as doing something illegal. The war is lost. The only ones benefiting from this war are the cartels.
Ummm, that is where the privacy laws with medical experts comes in. Rehab places are like sanctuary cities, though legal.

pete311

08-16-2016, 02:53 PM

and there's plenty of rehab places if one chooses to go.

Not in Milwaukee. I know this first hand with my sister in law. They are also not effective. Most are detox only. That generally does nothing as the user is still addicted. Also the good ones you need to book months in advance. They also don't dual treat which is important because many drug users have a mental illness like my sister in law. One time she couldn't get in to a hospital to treat her schizophrenia because she tested positive for heroin but the rehab place wouldn't take her because she was having a schizophrenia episode. Exactly what is she to do?

pete311

08-16-2016, 02:54 PM

Ummm, that is where the privacy laws with medical experts comes in. Rehab places are like sanctuary cities, though legal.

Rehab is only the beginning and most of the time they are like a merry go round.

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 02:55 PM

Not in Milwaukee. I know this first hand with my sister in law. They are also not effective. Most are detox only. That generally does nothing as the user is still addicted. Also the good ones you need to book months in advance. They also don't dual treat which is important because many drug users have a mental illness like my sister in law. One time she couldn't get in to a hospital to treat her schizophrenia because she tested positive for heroin but the rehab place wouldn't take her because she was having a schizophrenia episode. Exactly what is she to do?
Then apply for involuntary commitment where she can't check out.

pete311

08-16-2016, 02:58 PM

Bullshit. Poor people are the smokers in significant numbers. It's almost like you just throw shit off the top of your head and call it a debate. Poor people also drink to excess and are less likely to get help when hitting bottom.

Again, I guess you just want to talk about your opinion on symptoms, argue that they should be 'legal,' then bemoan the additional lack of responsibilities these actions bring to the next generation born into poverty.

Not sure how this is a response to my message. When do I mention poor people smoking or poor people drinking?

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 02:58 PM

I'm off to PT, it seems that my thread was hijacked from black riots in Milwaukee to Pete's SIL. Perhaps someone would like to start their own thread?

Decriminalize drugs?
War on drug dealers?
My SIL has a heck of a lot of problems?

pete311

08-16-2016, 02:59 PM

Then apply for involuntary commitment where she can't check out.

That is a court order as she is over 18

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 03:00 PM

Not sure how this is a response to my message. When do I mention poor people smoking or poor people drinking?

OMG! Your lists of the afflictions of the poor and the rich. Why any legal vices-though you DID forget coffee-are even in this thread is beyond me.

You might want to try to focus on the topic or perhaps better yet, start your own threads.

pete311

08-16-2016, 03:01 PM

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 03:02 PM

Decriminalizing drugs was one of my solutions and Elessar started the debate.... but yeah my bad

Decriminalizing drugs is not a solution to the problem, but only to one symptom of poverty.

pete311

08-16-2016, 03:03 PM

OMG! Your lists of the afflictions of the poor and the rich. Why any legal vices-though you DID forget coffee-are even in this thread is beyond me.

You might want to try to focus on the topic or perhaps better yet, start your own threads.

Afflictions of the rich and poor? What post was that? Seriously this thread is like 170 posts long. If you're not reply to a thread but it's not the actually reply then link to what you are replying to. In the post you replied to I said white controlled drugs are alcohol, tobacco and prescription drugs and then you reply how the poor are drinkers and smokers. How does that follow?

Gunny

08-16-2016, 03:04 PM

Rehab is only the beginning and most of the time they are like a merry go round.

Has a lot do with a lot of things. Smoking was "cool" when I was kid. Now it's almost a Federal crime. They test you for drugs in the military but you can get beer for a dollar at the E-Club.

To this day, which actor doesn't have a tumbler in his hand? From Humphrey Bogart to Ironman? It's all about being "cool". That is societal and programs kids. And as Kath says, it's always the damned poor kids. And it's ridiculous.

I can quit drinking but not smoking. I'd go nuts and probably start drinking again.

pete311

08-16-2016, 03:06 PM

Decriminalizing drugs is not a solution to the problem, but only to one symptom of poverty.

The heroin and prescription drug epidemic is not a symptom of poverty. Most afflicted are well off moms and dads and white kids. I got cars with tinted windows hanging on my block all day with rich white kids driving in and doing a deal.

In any case, what do you think the core cause of poverty is?

Gunny

08-16-2016, 04:39 PM

The heroin and prescription drug epidemic is not a symptom of poverty. Most afflicted are well off moms and dads and white kids. I got cars with tinted windows hanging on my block all day with rich white kids driving in and doing a deal.

In any case, what do you think the core cause of poverty is?

People want something for nothing. I see jobs available every day. And I know one guy who's 40-something and never had a job because he's too damned good for them. I washed dishes, pumped gas, humped a lawn mower ... the idea is do something. I never sat around waiting on someone else to give me crap. I wanted what I wanted and I went out and got it. And I had ZERO excuses. I'm a straight white male.

Excuses is your answer.

jimnyc

08-16-2016, 05:25 PM

-----
(video at site)

Burn Down White Suburbs, Sister of Man Killed by Milwaukee Police Urges Rioters
"Take that sh*t to the suburbs. Burn that sh*t down! We need our sh*t! We need our weave!"

Video footage shows the sister of the man shot dead by police in Milwaukee calling on rioters to burn down white suburbs instead of their own neighborhoods.

“Burning down sh*t ain’t gonna help nothin’,” yells Sherelle Smith.

“You’re burnin’ down sh*t we need in our community.”

“Take that sh*t to the suburbs. Burn that sh*t down!” she demands.

“We need our sh*t! We need our weave! I don’t wear it, but we need it!”

http://www.infowars.com/burn-down-white-suburbs-sister-of-man-killed-by-milwaukee-police-urges-rioters/

To give an idea on how CNN is biased and how the slant the news:

-----

CNN Edits Out Milwaukee Police Shooting Victim’s Sister Calling For Violence [VIDEO]

In a report about the rioting in Milwaukee airing on CNN, the network selectively edited the footage of the sister of an armed man shot by police to make it seem like she simply called for peace, when in-fact she also called for violence.

In the segment airing on Monday’s “CNN Newsroom,” with correspondent Ana Cabrera, her report portrayed the protesters as peaceful, holding a vigil “marked by prayers.”

Cabrara then said the deceased’s sister was “calling for peace” followed by a brief clip where she said, “don’t bring the violence here and the ignorance here.”

Media watchdog Newsbusters notes that Sherelle Smith, the victim’s sisters also called for violence.

Smith said, “Burnin down shit ain’t going to help nothin! Y’all burnin’ down shit we need in our community. Take that shit to the suburbs. Burn that shit down! We need our shit! We need our weaves. I don’t wear it. But we need it.”

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2016/08/16/cnn-edits-out-milwaukee-police-shooting-victims-sister-calling-for-violence-video/#ixzz4HXLOU0LY

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 06:30 PM

The heroin and prescription drug epidemic is not a symptom of poverty. Most afflicted are well off moms and dads and white kids. I got cars with tinted windows hanging on my block all day with rich white kids driving in and doing a deal.

In any case, what do you think the core cause of poverty is?

There's not one, but a cascade that begins with the breakdown of family unit. Oftentimes this would be overcome by multi-generation, but since the 1960's what is left is women and kids, with the men present in gangs and/or on drugs. Too many of the women too are druggies, the kids being left to fend for themselves.

Funny that you brought up the well off addicts, I was going to earlier, but I had an appointment. To get to the 'core' as you say, you'll notice that the well off addict certainly creates mayhem for themselves and those who love them, but the spillover effects are mitigated. Why? Support structures are in place, mostly by the mores of the community and families that live there.

Elessar

08-16-2016, 06:47 PM

What does that have to do with addiction being a medical condition and effect of decriminalizing street drugs to shift funds to medical care and treatment?

You brought it up. Why don't you live with bringing it up?

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 06:48 PM

People want something for nothing. I see jobs available every day. And I know one guy who's 40-something and never had a job because he's too damned good for them. I washed dishes, pumped gas, humped a lawn mower ... the idea is do something. I never sat around waiting on someone else to give me crap. I wanted what I wanted and I went out and got it. And I had ZERO excuses. I'm a straight white male.

Excuses is your answer.

I hear you. As I said I wasn't raised poor or even really wanting anything reasonable, the luck of the draw. However, my folks and most of those around our area had the kids working at something or other pretty much from the time they were little. I had paper routes, shoveled snow, (free for elderly folks, but for $ for most), cut lawns, washed cars. My friend and I sold greeting cards-from back of comic books and started a bread baking service.

My brother had more jobs-jerk always made more too. ;) All of us had regular jobs by 14 or 15, I was a waitress in a pretty sweet place, made a lot of money there. LOL! Enough that I thought it made sense to keep working and get an apartment. Um, parents wouldn't go along with that one.

My dad was in steel industry. Friends dads pretty much were all executives of railroads, banking, chemical companies, utilities. Truth is money wasn't really what parents were looking at, but skills needed to get and keep a job. Dealing with the public, with other employees, especially those from differing groups, showing up on time, keeping grades up and dealing with getting schedules that fit with other commitments.

Pretty much the same experiences my kids and friends kids grew up with. Yes, times changed and restaurants wouldn't hire 14 year olds, nor car washes. However they did set up lawn service businesses and pet care services. They still learned the same type of skills.

Kids in lower socioeconomic groups do not have that type of guidance or those that can help them get those skills. They don't see their parents going out for work at 5:30 am and not getting home until after 6 or 7. It just seems that 'they got it easy.'

My parents were pretty mellow regarding pushing us, but certain things were just expected. Doing well in school, being polite, helping the young and old when needed, etc., weren't lectured-just expected. Chores at home were just that, to be done. No excuses.

My last two years of high school, when I had decided that getting an apartment and keeping my job seemed like such a great idea, attending stupid high school seemed pretty much a dumb idea. When I was 'caught' the next day I was out of my job and my Mustang was sold. No talking, no bargaining, just done. For the rest of the year I was driven to school and picked up. Crap my parents had us walking to parochial school when I was 6 and that was nearly 2 miles from our house. I'd broken some of the 'understood rules' and there was suddenly this parental force on my back. I was shipped off to state school for summer session, the day after graduating. I didn't know that I could have said, "No." LOL!

Elessar

08-16-2016, 07:02 PM

Gunny

08-16-2016, 07:23 PM

I hear you. As I said I wasn't raised poor or even really wanting anything reasonable, the luck of the draw. However, my folks and most of those around our area had the kids working at something or other pretty much from the time they were little. I had paper routes, shoveled snow, (free for elderly folks, but for $ for most), cut lawns, washed cars. My friend and I sold greeting cards-from back of comic books and started a bread baking service.

My brother had more jobs-jerk always made more too. ;) All of us had regular jobs by 14 or 15, I was a waitress in a pretty sweet place, made a lot of money there. LOL! Enough that I thought it made sense to keep working and get an apartment. Um, parents wouldn't go along with that one.

My dad was in steel industry. Friends dads pretty much were all executives of railroads, banking, chemical companies, utilities. Truth is money wasn't really what parents were looking at, but skills needed to get and keep a job. Dealing with the public, with other employees, especially those from differing groups, showing up on time, keeping grades up and dealing with getting schedules that fit with other commitments.

Pretty much the same experiences my kids and friends kids grew up with. Yes, times changed and restaurants wouldn't hire 14 year olds, nor car washes. However they did set up lawn service businesses and pet care services. They still learned the same type of skills.

Kids in lower socioeconomic groups do not have that type of guidance or those that can help them get those skills. They don't see their parents going out for work at 5:30 am and not getting home until after 6 or 7. It just seems that 'they got it easy.'

My parents were pretty mellow regarding pushing us, but certain things were just expected. Doing well in school, being polite, helping the young and old when needed, etc., weren't lectured-just expected. Chores at home were just that, to be done. No excuses.

My last two years of high school, when I had decided that getting an apartment and keeping my job seemed like such a great idea, attending stupid high school seemed pretty much a dumb idea. When I was 'caught' the next day I was out of my job and my Mustang was sold. No talking, no bargaining, just done. For the rest of the year I was driven to school and picked up. Crap my parents had us walking to parochial school when I was 6 and that was nearly 2 miles from our house. I'd broken some of the 'understood rules' and there was suddenly this parental force on my back. I was shipped off to state school for summer session, the day after graduating. I didn't know that I could have said, "No." LOL!

You're kind of missing my point, Kath. I don't know anything about you specifically nor were my comments aimed at you specifically. I'm Southern. I say "you" and "y'all" in a ubiquitous sense.

And you in the personal sense are as old as I am. We grew up having to earn what we got. My point is I had nothing I didn't earn. And I will admit admit to being a class snob. I hated Officer's kids. They always had everything just handed to them. I watched my mother cry over a broken egg. That was part of dinner.

This isn't about me; although, I don't know anyone else's story. It's about the situation and encompasses more than one thread. Quit whining and get a job. I resent people that think they are entitled. Work. Or is that another 4 letter word?

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 07:29 PM

You're kind of missing my point, Kath. I don't know anything about you specifically nor were my comments aimed at you specifically. I'm Southern. I say "you" and "y'all" in a ubiquitous sense.

And you in the personal sense are as old as I am. We grew up having to earn what we got. My point is I had nothing I didn't earn. And I will admit admit to being a class snob. I hated Officer's kids. They always had everything just handed to them. I watched my mother cry over a broken egg. That was part of dinner.

This isn't about me; although, I don't know anyone else's story. It's about the situation and encompasses more than one thread. Quit whining and get a job. I resent people that think they are entitled. Work. Or is that another 4 letter word?

and you missed my point. Some with a little, some with a lot, share common values that were passed on from their parents/grandparents. Certain values are part and parcel of moving up and out or not. What has happened to many in some black and white lower socioeconomic areas is a lack of those values, through the generations raised since the 'War on Poverty.' While it's seen in the urban areas of our cities in the past few years with the rioting and civil unrest; it's also found in Appalachia and other areas of white poverty.

Gunny

08-16-2016, 07:41 PM

and you missed my point. Some with a little, some with a lot, share common values that were passed on from their parents/grandparents. Certain values are part and parcel of moving up and out or not. What has happened to many in some black and white lower socioeconomic areas is a lack of those values, through the generations raised since the 'War on Poverty.' While it's seen in the urban areas of our cities in the past few years with the rioting and civil unrest; it's also found in Appalachia and other areas of white poverty.

I have not missed your point. I just gave up trying to make it. Nobody's listening.

Kathianne

08-16-2016, 07:42 PM

Whatever, Gunny.

Gunny

08-16-2016, 08:13 PM

Whatever, Gunny.

Missing the fact I'm agreeing with you? I totally agree about the socioeconomics. I've supported your argument through this thread. Just because I have a different viewpoint from a different position doesn't mean I've disagreed with you. It means I saw the situation from a different set of eyes.

God y'all people are getting so testy around here over nothing.

pete311

08-16-2016, 09:04 PM

Again, you refuse to acknowledge INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY.

One of the main problems of the black community is drug addiction. It's relevant.

The individuals should be justly held responsible. Unfortunately many think we should kick them to the curb to fend for themselves and tell them sucks for you now fuck off. Addiction only leads to death. They don't deserve that. That's not a society I want to live in. People make mistakes. You should have to die for a stupid mistake. One that nearly every addict regrets. No kid grows up wanting to be a crack head.

Elessar

08-16-2016, 11:06 PM

One of the main problems of the black community is drug addiction. It's relevant.

The individuals should be justly held responsible. Unfortunately many think we should kick them to the curb to fend for themselves and tell them sucks for you now fuck off. Addiction only leads to death. They don't deserve that. That's not a society I want to live in. People make mistakes. You should have to die for a stupid mistake. One that nearly every addict regrets. No kid grows up wanting to be a crack head.

Partial Bullshit. You still refuse to address Individual Responsibility! Where does that play
into the cards you are dealing?

They made those choices, the rest of society did not. Who is to blame?
The users or suppliers? Going to coddle them for a 'feel good'?

If your love these addicts so much, take them into your home, and let them
leech off you. You will wake up dead from them stealing from you.

Gunny

08-17-2016, 05:06 AM

Partial Bullshit. You still refuse to address Individual Responsibility! Where does that play
into the cards you are dealing?

They made those choices, the rest of society did not. Who is to blame?
The users or suppliers? Going to coddle them for a 'feel good'?

If your love these addicts so much, take them into your home, and let them
leech off you. You will wake up dead from them stealing from you.

I have an addictive personality. Drives me nuts because it is not logical. One reason why I won't take anything stronger than ibuprofen. I have to be careful. Gets old watching everything you do.

But I can attest to the fact an addict will destroy themselves and anything and everyone around them. And this "get help" crap is for the birds. You get treated like sh*t. I got treated better in boot camp. They just keep you doped up and wandering the halls. Good thing you swapped out my booze for some pills. :rolleyes:

I honestly don't know the answers. I wish I did. I wouldn't be sitting outside at 3 AM having a smoke and could certainly find a better place to put the smoke money.

Which is another issue and DOES create criminals. The government taxes the Hell out of everything you want. Gas, smokes and booze. Most of the price for any of them go to the government and Bill Clinton was one of the worst at jacking our taxes. So these people that can't afford their habits go out and steal it. Then the vendor has to jack prices on everything else to make up the difference.

Neverending circle. I will point out the hypocrisy of those that want to sit in judgement of others when they're big fat pigs addicted to food. Last time they saw their belt it was hanging in the closet. The biggest anti=smoking activist in SA weighed over 300 pounds. But smoke in a freakin' bar annoyed her. You can eat and drink your fat ass to death but I can't have a smoke? GMAFB.

Kathianne

08-17-2016, 08:30 AM

I have an addictive personality. Drives me nuts because it is not logical. One reason why I won't take anything stronger than ibuprofen. I have to be careful. Gets old watching everything you do.

But I can attest to the fact an addict will destroy themselves and anything and everyone around them. And this "get help" crap is for the birds. You get treated like sh*t. I got treated better in boot camp. They just keep you doped up and wandering the halls. Good thing you swapped out my booze for some pills. :rolleyes:

I honestly don't know the answers. I wish I did. I wouldn't be sitting outside at 3 AM having a smoke and could certainly find a better place to put the smoke money.

Which is another issue and DOES create criminals. The government taxes the Hell out of everything you want. Gas, smokes and booze. Most of the price for any of them go to the government and Bill Clinton was one of the worst at jacking our taxes. So these people that can't afford their habits go out and steal it. Then the vendor has to jack prices on everything else to make up the difference.

Neverending circle. I will point out the hypocrisy of those that want to sit in judgement of others when they're big fat pigs addicted to food. Last time they saw their belt it was hanging in the closet. The biggest anti=smoking activist in SA weighed over 300 pounds. But smoke in a freakin' bar annoyed her. You can eat and drink your fat ass to death but I can't have a smoke? GMAFB.

I'm not trying to be heartless here, but if one doesn't have the $$ to pay for a nice 'away' place to dry out or get off of drugs, one is pretty much at the mercy of other's help. Before one can begin 'recovery' one has to be safely off the physical addiction.

pete311

08-17-2016, 08:43 AM

I'm not trying to be heartless here, but if one doesn't have the $$ to pay for a nice 'away' place to dry out or get off of drugs

This is a whole other debate we could do. Should rich junkies get better treatment than poor junkies? Where is the morality in that? Especially those born into money or poverty.

Kathianne

08-17-2016, 08:49 AM

This is a whole other debate we could do. Should rich junkies get better treatment than poor junkies? Where is the morality in that? Especially those born into money or poverty.

Start a thread. Do not shorten other's quotes, see rules.

DLT

08-17-2016, 11:33 AM

I got online at 4am, found Milwaukee had riots-my newly married niece lives in Milwaukee. Waiting to hear via return text.

My cousin in LA went to bed at 10pm with dry neighborhood, her husband woke at 2am, to find the water had gone over half their yard, could no longer see in ground pool. They are evacuating-it's raining still.

It's beginning to look a lot like Armageddon. Floods, earthquakes, "predicted" mega tsunamis, riots, terrorism, burning neighborhoods and general murder and mayhem.

Somebody needs to invent a stun gun that will knock an entire crowd off of their feet and render them helpless long enough for police to cuff them all. Oh wait....that wouldn't be politically correct. Best to just let them riot, burn and murder innocents in the process. Nevermind.

DLT

08-17-2016, 11:35 AM

Their house, last night:

https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13912652_10153523773017242_5411734627990013530_n.j pg?oh=89e39bb54cbab49944207dc53982e23a&oe=584818AD

Holy crap. Were they taking the one last night from a boat? How did they get that shot? I hope they have flood insurance.

fj1200

08-17-2016, 12:08 PM

Honestly, it seems to me there's little to no reason for the government involvement. Perhaps some with costs in getting folks off drugs, though they should have to want to. Prison or rehab?

Most of what ails these communities could be dealt with by community or regions.

Government involvement can be many things but certainly is the removal of what caused the problem in the first place; bad welfare rules, poor economic growth policies, poor drug policies, etc. Communities or regions isn't going to fix what ails these communities because unless there is a change in the environment there isn't anything to spur the change.

Kathianne

08-17-2016, 12:13 PM

Government involvement can be many things but certainly is the removal of what caused the problem in the first place; bad welfare rules, poor economic growth policies, poor drug policies, etc. Communities or regions isn't going to fix what ails these communities because unless there is a change in the environment there isn't anything to spur the change.

Rempval of some of the bad laws, I. agree. Perhaps combine with community based programs. I'm on break, mote when home

fj1200

08-17-2016, 12:18 PM

Rempval of some of the bad laws, I. agree. Perhaps combine with community based programs. I'm on break, mote when home

No question on community based programs. At least someone who acknowledges the root problems:

...

The failed progressive urban policy causes anger and resentment in people that simmers below the surface. The officer-involved-shooting was simply a catalyst that ignited the already volatile mixture of inescapable poverty, failing K-12 public schools, dysfunctional lifestyle choices like father absent homes, gang involvement, drug/alcohol abuse and massive unemployment.

Here are the facts: Milwaukee is run by progressive Democrats. Their decades-long Democrat regime has done nothing to reduce these urban pathologies, in fact, their strategies have exacerbated the situation by expanding the welfare state.

...
http://www.thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/crime/291435-sheriff-david-clarke-liberal-politics-and-media-fueled-milwaukee

Gunny

08-17-2016, 01:06 PM

I'm not trying to be heartless here, but if one doesn't have the $$ to pay for a nice 'away' place to dry out or get off of drugs, one is pretty much at the mercy of other's help. Before one can begin 'recovery' one has to be safely off the physical addiction.

I don't call it heartless. I'm responsible for my own behavior. Before one can begin recovery one has to admit they have a problem. THAT is a problem all itself. And if you can be safely off the physical addiction on your own, what help do you need?

People that need help need it. I do not begrudge them that. Better to ask for help than destroy everyone around you. People who are not addicts don't get that and love to preach. How'd you like your first chore of the day being puking your guts out? Then you arrange your daily schedule around your addiction.

What a way to live, huh?

Kathianne

08-17-2016, 04:15 PM

No question on community based programs. At least someone who acknowledges the root problems:

http://www.thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/crime/291435-sheriff-david-clarke-liberal-politics-and-media-fueled-milwaukee

I think the Dems have been running that city nearly as long as they've been running Chicago, 1920's.

Gunny

08-17-2016, 04:35 PM

I think the Dems have been running that city nearly as long as they've been running Chicago, 1920's.

You can take mine and Pete's post and make a new thread. You'll have to participate though since I think I'm a victim of the ignore rule with him.

And I am not trying to be mean. I'm trying to be honest. I've been sober (minus a couple of slips) for a couple of years now.

Kathianne

08-17-2016, 04:38 PM

You can take mine and Pete's post and make a new thread. You'll have to participate though since I think I'm a victim of the ignore rule with him.

And I am not trying to be mean. I'm trying to be honest. I've been sober (minus a couple of slips) for a couple of years now.

I don't want to start a thread on the topic. Mr. Pete should have started at least 2 separate threads already. I'm bowing out.

Elessar

08-17-2016, 09:19 PM

I don't want to start a thread on the topic. Mr. Pete should have started at least 2 separate threads already. I'm bowing out.

You can take mine and Pete's post and make a new thread. You'll have to participate though since I think I'm a victim of the ignore rule with him.

And I am not trying to be mean. I'm trying to be honest. I've been sober (minus a couple of slips) for a couple of years now.

Pete can be a complete idiot, derailing discussion all the time.

jimnyc

08-18-2016, 05:55 AM

Kathianne

08-18-2016, 06:16 AM

I know it sucks being the person to start a thread, and then come back and see different subjects being discussed. But it happens, rarely do I see a thread reach 8 pages or more and still be on the same subject exactly. Hell, it's usually curved by page 3. I don't think Pete meant or went out of his way to go off topic. One tends to float around in different directions when looking for various excuses. :thumb: I kid, I kid.

Kath, let me know if you would like me to split things, I can make this into 2 good threads if you like!! It's a PITA but I'm already on cup 3 at 6:55am!!

I don't care, it happens. I don't mind change in topic, if it's related to the original. My point from the beginning, which Pete seemed to acknowledge time and again, is the topic had changed by HIS instigation to the causes of the riots, to the symptoms. I kept trying to bring it back to causes/possible solutions-like many he kept circling back to 'his experiences' not the topic. It became about junkies, not Milwaukee.

Anyways, I think I'm done, folks can continue to tell us their personal redemption stories or how tough their relatives have it.

jimnyc

08-18-2016, 06:34 AM

I don't care, it happens. I don't mind change in topic, if it's related to the original. My point from the beginning, which Pete seemed to acknowledge time and again, is the topic had changed by HIS instigation to the causes of the riots, to the symptoms. I kept trying to bring it back to causes/possible solutions-like many he kept circling back to 'his experiences' not the topic. It became about junkies, not Milwaukee.

Anyways, I think I'm done, folks can continue to tell us their personal redemption stories or how tough their relatives have it.

Whew, good, cause I really didn't feel like going through 14 pages and splitting. :) :coffee:

I agree. I was trying to compare Milwaukee with the rest of the events that have been happening in the past year due to BLM and/or shootings. While I believe that you can perhaps tie them in from WAY out in right field, in the same state, the topics really aren't the same. But I can see how some can go from discussing the events that took place - to finding EXCUSES as to why the events took place. But yes, junkies and and such, I not only think is a different topic, I don't even think the 'stretch' made to blame them is on topic.

Ok, now you made me feel bad, splitting anyway, gimme a bit... :)