If your "faith" in God depends on punishment and reward you don't know God

[darin]

I think that's a true statement. I think basing behavior and claims of love upon promise of reward is NOT love at all - except love for self. I wonder if folks have a Stockholm-syndrome relationship with God - God the great destroyer and tormentor of the vile "unbelievers". Most modern Christianity - and likely Islam - teaches God will effectively destroy untold BILLIONS of souls, assuming not every one ever born and died will have earned their way into heaven - earned via token prayers, obedience to dogma, or through rituals.

Think about that for a minute. The way folks tend to interpret the Bible tells the reader God has absolutely NO problem sending his creation into ETERNAL hell and torture. I mean, they will say "Sure it bothers God to lose even ONE soul!" I'm inclined to respond with 'Bullshit. Or if it does bother God it doesn't bother him enough to simply NOT do that."

Thus, religions tend to promise rewards for good behaviour and punishment for bad. But to have GOOD behaviour one must profess Love for God and then obey ever-changing laws and regulations; giving up pleasure and will. Then, God will know you are serious and give you a reward in the afterlife.

Isn't that kinda fucked up? Nobody who does ANYTHING with an agenda does that thing honestly - except the agenda being selflessness. And if we are selfless, we "love God" despite what He promises, right?

We don't worry about the promised reward because the reward - to those who love - is the very love itself. Yeah?

[revelarts]

Cornering the statement itself I Think the flaw is it assumes "dependence" on rewards+punishment etc.. Seems it's making up a position. Not honestly trying to approach those who straitfowardly believe God is love.... AND He says he's going to reward+punish. The statement acts like punishment and rewards were made up by believers. The Statement seems to assume that rewards and punishments are not something taught clearly by all the prophets and Jesus himself. But the mental and linguistic gymnastics that has to be done to avoid the obvious there is staggering. Seems to me it'd be more honest just to say something like 'I don't Like that view of God as a rewarder + punisher' . Rather than assert what comes across as 'OTHERS don't really know the real loving God who has nothing to do with parts of the Bible I think are too mean and unloving'.

[darin]

Cornering the statement itself I Think the flaw is it assumes "dependence" on rewards+punishment etc.. Seems it's making up a position. Not honestly trying to approach those who straightforwardly believe God is love.... AND He says he's going to reward+punish. The statement acts like punishment and rewards were made up by believers. The Statement seems to assume that rewards and punishments are not something taught clearly by all the prophets and Jesus himself. But the mental and linguistic gymnastics that has to be done to avoid the obvious there is staggering. Seems to me it'd be more honest just to say something like 'I don't Like that view of God as a rewarder + punisher' . Rather than assert what comes across as 'OTHERS don't really know the real loving God who has nothing to do with parts of the Bible I think are too mean and unloving'.

Your entire reply is simply made up because you refuse to even discuss the issue of eternal punishment. Then you go on with the fallacy "Clearly taught by all the prophets" when that absolutely isn't the case. It might be clear to you, but perhaps you're clearly wrong? God doesn't say he will eternally punish. Or if he does - and there's some scripture that paints that picture - there's also scripture teaching God will destroy hell, and death. Further, Christ already descended into Hell and brought-out those held prisoner. That implies anyone who has died and their soul entered that punishment is already out and done - UNLESS you believe hell and heaven are on the same time stream as earth. Further, Christ commanded - to unbelievers and believers - they SHALL love God with all their hearts, and they SHALL love their fellow man as themselves. Christ didn't say "Some of you might" or "You had better" He spoke "Shall." That's a commandment and a prophecy in my book. Then we see how Hell and Death are cast into what is likely God's consuming fire and is no more - Death becomes life.

To ask this question another way - if there was no promise of reward of Heaven, would people still believe? Still love?

Then I think about what those words mean. Love God. As in to physically and emotionally LOVE God? Do people feel warm-fuzzies about God? I argue the measure of one's love for God is equal to how second-nature it is for people to love those around them.


I don't like the view of God as a big fat loser in the game of 'salvation'.

[Noir]

Your entire reply is simply made up

And your posts on topics like this are not part of a personal narrative that you "made up"?

[darin]

And your posts on topics like this are not part of a personal narrative that you "made up"?

What are you asking?

Let me clarify - will try to be super-simple.


I posted some thoughts about the nature of Love and God.

A reply comes in without any measure of discussion to my op. The reply 'made up' things unrelated to the topic.

You reply.


That's the order of events.

[revelarts]

Your entire reply is simply made up because you refuse to even discuss the issue of eternal punishment. Then you go on with the fallacy "Clearly taught by all the prophets" when that absolutely isn't the case. It might be clear to you, but perhaps you're clearly wrong? God doesn't say he will eternally punish. Or if he does - and there's some scripture that paints that picture - there's also scripture teaching God will destroy hell, and death. Further, Christ already descended into Hell and brought-out those held prisoner. That implies anyone who has died and their soul entered that punishment is already out and done - UNLESS you believe hell and heaven are on the same time stream as earth. Further, Christ commanded - to unbelievers and believers - they SHALL love God with all their hearts, and they SHALL love their fellow man as themselves. Christ didn't say "Some of you might" or "You had better" He spoke "Shall." That's a commandment and a prophecy in my book. Then we see how Hell and Death are cast into what is likely God's consuming fire and is no more - Death becomes life.

To ask this question another way - if there was no promise of reward of Heaven, would people still believe? Still love?

Then I think about what those words mean. Love God. As in to physically and emotionally LOVE God? Do people feel warm-fuzzies about God? I argue the measure of one's love for God is equal to how second-nature it is for people to love those around them.


I don't like the view of God as a big fat loser in the game of 'salvation'.

Seems like we've done the "heaven and hell" talk before. But to the rephrased question. Yes, it's the question the book of Job deals with. goes to an even farther extreme. His answer was "though he kills me yet will I trust him." Yes, the love of God is not finally bound to rewards or punishments. Like the loves of an old friend and an adult parent child relationship is not tied to gifts. But to who the person is. But that kind of relationship isn't automatic. We all come to God as children with limited understanding of the Father. And the "fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom", not the end. Seems to me The love of God is something most believers GROW into various aspects of. And to be dismissive of other people's journey/growth in the love of God and assuming its false is not what we should doing. If you or others have technical questions or dispute features of the after life. OK that can be debated . But to assume that other's faith, knowledge and love of God is insincere or false because your theology has changed over time, well that's taking it further than we should go don't you think?

[darin]

Seems like we've done the "heaven and hell" talk before. But to the rephrased question. Yes, it's the question the book of Job deals with. goes to an even farther extreme. His answer was "though he kills me yet will I trust him." Yes, the love of God is not finally bound to rewards or punishments. Like the loves of an old friend and an adult parent child relationship is not tied to gifts. But to who the person is. But that kind of relationship isn't automatic. We all come to God as children with limited understanding of the Father. And the "fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom", not the end. Seems to me The love of God is something most believers GROW into various aspects of. And to be dismissive of other people's journey/growth in the love of God and assuming its false is not what we should doing. If you or others have technical questions or dispute features of the after life. OK that can be debated . But to assume that other's faith, knowledge and love of God is insincere or false because your theology has changed over time, well that's taking it further than we should go don't you think?


We'll have to define terms.

"fear" of the lord is not 'being afraid'.

'We all' will come to God as children. Implies 'everyone. For all time'?


___

Do you suspect anyone "loves" God or "serves" God out of fear of punishment? Or promise of reward? Anyone. Those are to whom I'm writing. Encouraging people to Feel the love, and let that love guide you. Because if you are acting out of love to others, you are acting out of Love to God. THAT IS the love.

Somebody who loves people should probably hope and pray NOBODY is sent to eternal punishment for what are probably, ultimately - in the big scope of things - stupid reasons.

[revelarts]

We'll have to define terms.

"fear" of the lord is not 'being afraid'.

'We all' will come to God as children. Implies 'everyone. For all time'?


___

Do you suspect anyone "loves" God or "serves" God out of fear of punishment? Or promise of reward? Anyone. Those are to whom I'm writing. Encouraging people to Feel the love, and let that love guide you. Because if you are acting out of love to others, you are acting out of Love to God. THAT IS the love.

Somebody who loves people should probably hope and pray NOBODY is sent to eternal punishment for what are probably, ultimately - in the big scope of things - stupid reasons.

""fear" of the lord is not 'being afraid'.
Do you suspect anyone "loves" God or "serves" God out of fear of punishment? Or promise of reward? Anyone."

I think you've sort of pointed to answers to your own question.
It seems when we look at the word "fear" the Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic sometimes it does IN FACT mean "FEAR" as we normally understand it.

I don't know about your home or your relation with your parents but was there ever a time that you FEARED your parents? Ever a time where you did things they ask simply based on fear of punishment or for rewards?
My answer to those questions is yes. Does it mean i didn't really LOVE my mother and father? If i acted out of fear to cut the grass before my Dad got home, does it mean that i had no REAL love for him? And he had no real love for me?

But Ok, should my relationship ONLY be about fear or should it have continued into adulthood based on fears like that. Of course not.
But even as an adult if my father remained strong and challenges me for something i've done wrong in his eyes, maybe i've hurt a lil sister, shouldn't i fear his anger still? Even if it's not my main emotion. Or should i blithely go on as if i've done nothing wrong in some blissfully knowledge that my father loves me no matter what i do?
Knowing that my father loves me no matter what is one thing, but pretending that he loves everything thing i do is another.
Loving God and trying to live in His love and in His image is the positive we want to walk in. But I'd be lying if i said I'm ALWAYS in mind and heart even trying to live there. Does that show a lack of the love of God on my part, yep. But I know there's grace to cover me but the disappointment and even anger of God is not something to dismiss or much less deny. But acknowledging all of his emotions and power and being thankfully for his overwhelming love and grace seems to me the honest way to understand our relationship with Him.


As far as everyone being children of God by default.
I think we've talked about that before as well.
We disagree.

[GravyBoat]

I believe in a Creator. I also believe that we're our own godhead. Of course, the vast majority thinks a belief in an external godhead; Jesus, Allah, Buddha achieves them Glory. But not me, I'm all alone in this world. I've seen the entire course of humanity unfold in my mind, from Adam until now; now is the best. And my only concern now is myself and anything related to me. The religiously faithful are usually fixated on reward, punishment, and death. But not me, I like good old fashioned money. "In God We Trust - All Others Pay Cash" just like it says on the dollar bill. That's my creed and I'm sticking to it.

[crin63]

I think that's a true statement. I think basing behavior and claims of love upon promise of reward is NOT love at all - except love for self. I wonder if folks have a Stockholm-syndrome relationship with God - God the great destroyer and tormentor of the vile "unbelievers". Most modern Christianity - and likely Islam - teaches God will effectively destroy untold BILLIONS of souls, assuming not every one ever born and died will have earned their way into heaven - earned via token prayers, obedience to dogma, or through rituals.

Think about that for a minute. The way folks tend to interpret the Bible tells the reader God has absolutely NO problem sending his creation into ETERNAL hell and torture. I mean, they will say "Sure it bothers God to lose even ONE soul!" I'm inclined to respond with 'Bullshit. Or if it does bother God it doesn't bother him enough to simply NOT do that."

Thus, religions tend to promise rewards for good behaviour and punishment for bad. But to have GOOD behaviour one must profess Love for God and then obey ever-changing laws and regulations; giving up pleasure and will. Then, God will know you are serious and give you a reward in the afterlife.

Isn't that kinda fucked up? Nobody who does ANYTHING with an agenda does that thing honestly - except the agenda being selflessness. And if we are selfless, we "love God" despite what He promises, right?

We don't worry about the promised reward because the reward - to those who love - is the very love itself. Yeah?

I'm very fatigued this morning so I hope this all makes sense.

Personally, I find some of this line of thinking flawed. I don't see heaven as a reward that leads folks to Jesus, it's just a reality for those who trust in Jesus to the saving of their eternal souls. It will be wonderful beyond all our imagination and rewarding but not the reason or reward to make someone come to Christ.

Eternal punishment is a reality in the Bible so either one accepts the Bible as God's word or they redact it to fit their own beliefs whether preconceived or otherwise.

Sin is what separates us from God. Our own willful acts of rebellion against God that are clearly shown in scriptures to be sinful. They are crimes against a holy God. God is holy and cannot allow sin to continue forever. He and only He knows when our time of sinning will end both individually and collectively. Ther has to be a reckoning eventually.

Once we commit a single sin there is nothing in ourselves or of ourselves that we can do to erase that sin. No amount of prayer, rituals or good deeds will ever remove that sin from our record. No penance can be paid to eliminate it. If you could do it then there would have been no reason for Jesus to have ever left heaven, no reason for Jesus to have given a spirit body for a human body, no reason for Jesus to have walked among us, no reason for Jesus to have been in the presence of sin, and there would have been no reason for Jesus to be tortured and crucified. If you could buy forgiveness then none of that was necessary.

Jesus left heaven and came to earth. He lived a sinless life and all that is required for that. He was unjustly tried and convicted for crimes he never committed. He was beaten more than any man who has ever lived. He suffered the humiliation of being crucified. He did all that willingly so He could be the worthy sacrifice to appease God's judgement. All one has to do is agree with God about their sinful condition, recognize their is nothing they or anyone else can do to pay for that debt of sin except for Jesus. Then come to Jesus, trusting Him by faith to be saved and receive a pardon for their sins. Not because of their act of Faith but because of Jesus doing and dying in their stead.

Jesus said if you love Me keep My commandments. So demonstrating love for Jesus means keeping His commandments. Obviously, we are flawed individuals who cannot fulfil that to its full extent but we should be striving to be better at it today than we were yesterday.

[darin]

I'm very fatigued this morning so I hope this all makes sense.

Personally, I find some of this line of thinking flawed. I don't see heaven as a reward that leads folks to Jesus, it's just a reality for those who trust in Jesus to the saving of their eternal souls. It will be wonderful beyond all our imagination and rewarding but not the reason or reward to make someone come to Christ.

Eternal punishment is a reality in the Bible so either one accepts the Bible as God's word or they redact it to fit their own beliefs whether preconceived or otherwise.

Sin is what separates us from God. Our own willful acts of rebellion against God that are clearly shown in scriptures to be sinful. They are crimes against a holy God. God is holy and cannot allow sin to continue forever. He and only He knows when our time of sinning will end both individually and collectively. Ther has to be a reckoning eventually.

Once we commit a single sin there is nothing in ourselves or of ourselves that we can do to erase that sin. No amount of prayer, rituals or good deeds will ever remove that sin from our record. No penance can be paid to eliminate it. If you could do it then there would have been no reason for Jesus to have ever left heaven, no reason for Jesus to have given a spirit body for a human body, no reason for Jesus to have walked among us, no reason for Jesus to have been in the presence of sin, and there would have been no reason for Jesus to be tortured and crucified. If you could buy forgiveness then none of that was necessary.

Jesus left heaven and came to earth. He lived a sinless life and all that is required for that. He was unjustly tried and convicted for crimes he never committed. He was beaten more than any man who has ever lived. He suffered the humiliation of being crucified. He did all that willingly so He could be the worthy sacrifice to appease God's judgement. All one has to do is agree with God about their sinful condition, recognize their is nothing they or anyone else can do to pay for that debt of sin except for Jesus. Then come to Jesus, trusting Him by faith to be saved and receive a pardon for their sins. Not because of their act of Faith but because of Jesus doing and dying in their stead.

Jesus said if you love Me keep My commandments. So demonstrating love for Jesus means keeping His commandments. Obviously, we are flawed individuals who cannot fulfill that to its full extent but we should be striving to be better at it today than we were yesterday.


Makes a ton of sense. I take issue with a couple things - maybe you're interested?

How many - rhetorical questions - preachers preach 'hell fire'? How many preach what is tantamount to a 'warning'? Anytime people talk about others needing to be 'saved', the logical question is 'from what'? And don't forget, upon His death Christ descended into hell and freed those held captive. That's already done. If there was no eternal torment there would be nothing to be saved-from. The Bible does not agree with itself universally when it comes to eternal punishment for our souls - or if it does it does so based on agenda or belief of the particular translation being used. But to that point, every christian should beg and pray and petition God to avoid tormenting souls for eternity, no? That's the thing about Love. Love wants what's best.

But exactly to the point of this thread: If you love God you WILL keep his commandments - but keeping his commandments is NOT Love. Make sense? Obeying is not Love. But Love MAY mean obedience. But not obedience out of fear of reprisal - but obedience because of love. Christians often talk about their obedience as demonstration of their love - except love would never tell anyone how much THEY love God because that would be arrogant. Love would take no pride in how well they 'obey'.

Christ's commandments? Christ said you (mankind) WILL love God and WILL love our neighbors as ourselves. That sounds like a prophecy and one that can't happen if billions upon billions of souls are tormented night and day for all eternity simple out of their ignorance of what Christ did.

I'd argue the Thief on the Cross had NO idea Christ was 'dying for his sins'. I'd bet everything I own the Thief saw what he thought was a Godly man unjustly murdered. The Thief didn't obey anything. The thief likely, though, likely displayed LOVE for what he thought was just some preacher, at most. So Maybe it wasn't the Thief suddenly "becoming a Christian" that inspired Christ to make that famous utterance. Maybe...just Maybe...the Thief's Love for a stranger was enough.

[crin63]

Makes a ton of sense. I take issue with a couple things - maybe you're interested?QUOTE]

[QUOTE]How many - rhetorical questions - preachers preach 'hell fire'? How many preach what is tantamount to a 'warning'? Anytime people talk about others needing to be 'saved', the logical question is 'from what'? And don't forget, upon His death Christ descended into hell and freed those held captive. That's already done. If there was no eternal torment there would be nothing to be saved-from. The Bible does not agree with itself universally when it comes to eternal punishment for our souls - or if it does it does so based on agenda or belief of the particular translation being used. But to that point, every christian should beg and pray and petition God to avoid tormenting souls for eternity, no? That's the thing about Love. Love wants what's best.

At the moment this is all I will be able to comment on. I will try to get back to read and comment on the rest later in the day.

When Christ descended into Hades (the place of the dead) it was to bring those who were in the place referred to as Abraham's Bosom out and take them to heaven. Abraham's Bosom would have been a paradise. From Abraham's Bosom, they could also see the place of the damned as demonstrated with the conversation between the rich man and Abraham in Luke. There was a great chasm between. Abraham's Bosom was the place for those people who would not suffer eternal torment prior to Christ's crucifixion on the cross. That place no longer exists. It was obvious that there was nothing that would be done for those in the place of the damned. That was Hell. All who die without Christ will immediately go to Hell which should be thought of as a holding cell as they await judgement where every sin they have ever committed will read out for all to hear and then the Lamb's Book of Life will be opened to see if their name is in there. It won't be. They will be made to kneel before Christ, confess he is king and then cast into the Lake of Fire which is the 2nd death. Those who have trusted in Christ will observe and testify against those who they personally warned of the judgement to come. Those "Christians" will never see torment.

With regards to love. Love is doing what's best for a person for you and me. Sure there are emotions involved for us but it's doing what is best for that someone we claim to love. We cannot hold God to our understanding of, ability to, or execution of love. God demonstrated His love when He created us. God demonstrated His love when He did not immediately destroy us for the sin of Adam. God demonstrated His love when He provided a way for us to avoid the penalty of our sins (Old Testament is was through atonement and faith in God, New Testament it is through trusting in Christ). Then God demonstrated His greatest act of love by sending His Son Jesus to be the perfect sacrifice for sins but that only matters for those will believe. Christ's work on the cross is not a blanket pardon for the whole world.

[Gunny]

Why can't y'all say something simple instead of writing novels? God forgives all but an unrepentant soul.

[crin63]

Why can't y'all say something simple instead of writing novels? God forgives all but an unrepentant soul.

Gunny, I typically prefer brevity (I think I can do that) but Darin's proposal and subsequent follow-up question required more depth in the answer.

[Gunny]

Gunny, I typically prefer brevity (I think I can do that) but Darin's proposal and subsequent follow-up question required more depth in the answer.

Let's get something clear. Y'all do what you want. I'm just not reading it. I can't see it when it's in that little font. So I don't get to participate because I have no idea WTH is going on other than the thread title.

[darin]

At the moment this is all I will be able to comment on. I will try to get back to read and comment on the rest later in the day.

When Christ descended into Hades (the place of the dead) it was to bring those who were in the place referred to as Abraham's Bosom out and take them to heaven. Abraham's Bosom would have been a paradise. From Abraham's Bosom, they could also see the place of the damned as demonstrated with the conversation between the rich man and Abraham in Luke. There was a great chasm between. Abraham's Bosom was the place for those people who would not suffer eternal torment prior to Christ's crucifixion on the cross. That place no longer exists. It was obvious that there was nothing that would be done for those in the place of the damned. That was Hell. All who die without Christ will immediately go to Hell which should be thought of as a holding cell as they await judgement where every sin they have ever committed will read out for all to hear and then the Lamb's Book of Life will be opened to see if their name is in there. It won't be. They will be made to kneel before Christ, confess he is king and then cast into the Lake of Fire which is the 2nd death. Those who have trusted in Christ will observe and testify against those who they personally warned of the judgement to come. Those "Christians" will never see torment.

With regards to love. Love is doing what's best for a person for you and me. Sure there are emotions involved for us but it's doing what is best for that someone we claim to love. We cannot hold God to our understanding of, ability to, or execution of love. God demonstrated His love when He created us. God demonstrated His love when He did not immediately destroy us for the sin of Adam. God demonstrated His love when He provided a way for us to avoid the penalty of our sins (Old Testament is was through atonement and faith in God, New Testament it is through trusting in Christ). Then God demonstrated His greatest act of love by sending His Son Jesus to be the perfect sacrifice for sins but that only matters for those will believe. Christ's work on the cross is not a blanket pardon for the whole world.


Disagree on the first part in a big way. Christ went to free "to those who were disobedient long ago". Not to free saints in some sort of holding-place. The greek word used is "apeitheō" which means "uncompliant; to refuse belief, disbelieve". Christ taught/freed those who had previously refused to believe. Further, Ephesians says when Christ ascended into heaven he lead a host of those previously 'captive'. Captive, not patiently chillin'. The greek says he lead what was once a "captive multitude". Acts chapter two says Christ was raised up to "unbind" people from their "forfeiture of salvation". I think it's pretty clear Christ descent into the actual grave; hell - where spirits were held - those spirits who had forfeited their salvation. And I content: Entirely possible because of what we know of Time - and of course under the assumption time is based only on the person perceiving the time - and Hell and heaven are NOT bound by our linear time - everyone who ever "died in sin" or who will do so has subsequently been freed because of Christ's work.

And We cannot know Love apart from God. There can't be "our love vs god's love" because God IS love. It's like saying we cannot know salt because we didn't taste the original form of salt, still stuck inside the earth. Knowing salt - as refined as table salt, etc, we absolutely know the genesis of salt - we are tasting the same thing - albeit in a digestible form - as the rock that is the origin of salt we use at the table. Make any sense?


God didn't create us because he loved us, he created us to commune with him. Just as Adam's sin was a blanket sentence for all of mankind for all of time, I think it's quite possible so was Christ's atonement.


Why can't y'all say something simple instead of writing novels? God forgives all but an unrepentant soul.

Disagree. We have examples of God forgiving unrepentant sinners. First off - the parable of the Prodigal Son. The father has forgiven the child LONG before the child even apologized in the first place. Before the Father knew if the Son had changed or not; Before the father knew if the son was approaching to demand more money. Before the son uttered a word the Father's love demonstrated forgiveness. Further, the thief on the cross next to christ did no repenting. He never accepted christ into his heart. The thief said merely this: To the thief who was mocking Christ - stop being a dick to this guy, he hasn't done anything wrong. And to christ 'if you get a minute, remember me (not save, me, not forgive me) when you reach or establish your kingdom.

Christ said to the man - via the greek - I will arrange, to gather; to say; to enjoin, to term, or designate, or cull, (legō) you (either plural or specific) to Paradise (same word used for the Garden of Eden).

No mention that the thief must 'turn away from his life of sin'. No mention that the other thief goes to eternal torment.

Further - 1 Corinthians tells us "as with Adam all die ( to die the death of final condemnation and misery; to die to a thing by renunciation or utter separation) with Christ all will be made alive (to quicken with the life of salvation)". Romans reads "God has consigned all to disobedience so he may have mercy upon all." All.

Every knee will bow to christ, and everyone will swear allegiance to God. Christ said he will draw ALL ( the whole, entire) of humanity to himself (greek: emautou, meaning to myself, my own). Implies he will make All mankind 'one of his own kind. One of himself - his kindred, beloved. Christ made no separation or delineation in his meaning of 'all mankind'.