Relations with the "sworn" friend and his people. Russia and the United States

[ruslanbag43]

Good time of day.
I am a citizen of Russia, sometimes looking through the Western press, or even the forums, I notice some discrepancy with the information that we have and the media and what have you. Particularly striking is the fact that American citizens on the forums, not very interested in Russia and the conflict in Eastern Ukraine and the situation with Crimea.
I would like to talk with Americans, learn how much it is important for you how much you are informed on these issues.

PS.: please forgive me for my English and hope for leniency if somewhere I will be wrong.

[NightTrain]

Hi Ruslanbag, welcome!

We generally are interested here on this forum in Russian matters, but lately have been preoccupied with our presidential election.

What do you wish to discuss?

And your English is fine, you're doing well with it.

[ruslanbag43]

What do you wish to discuss?

Thank you for your answer.
What I wanted to discuss... in fact to talk a lot.
First of all, how to cover you in the media, Russia today? How do you feel about that?

I've always wondered what is written in the Western press but even more interesting to know what people in the West think reading this.

The last two years the relations between our countries is quite complicated. In Russia are increasingly talking about a new "cold war".

[NightTrain]

First of all, how to cover you in the media, Russia today? How do you feel about that?

I don't understand your question.


I've always wondered what is written in the Western press but even more interesting to know what people in the West think reading this.

The last two years the relations between our countries is quite complicated. In Russia are increasingly talking about a new "cold war".

It is complicated lately, and many of us think that Putin's aggressive actions are the result of having an incompetent & weak President. Putin saw opportunity to expand Russia's borders with no repercussions except economic sanctions that did hurt, but was probably worth the gamble in the long run. Your economic crunch is probably more due to the collapse of oil prices than any sanctions levied against Russia.

I think that Putin is a strong leader who genuinely does care about Russia, but is not above enriching himself along the way - he's worth many millions of dollars and that's pretty good for a retired KGB Colonel.

I don't think a new Cold War will erupt, but it's certainly a possibility. I hope it doesn't.

Do you have access to Western Media on your internet or are those censored? BBC, CNN, FOX, etc?

[ruslanbag43]

I don't understand your question.
I'm sorry, like I said, it features my knowledge of the language. I'll try the other way, here's the news.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-33614982

Enough of "cannibal" article. Horror. SLAVERY! As an argument - the man in the hood.

I wonder, does doubt the average American this kind of news? Is there a feeling of fake?

[ruslanbag43]

I think that Putin is a strong leader who genuinely does care about Russia, but is not above enriching himself along the way - he's worth many millions of dollars and that's pretty good for a retired KGB Colonel.


Putin... I am not a big fan of our President. No, I'm not against foreign policy (with some exceptions), but to Putin as to a specific leader have a complaint, it has things that I will never support.
As the demarcation of the Russian-Chinese border in 2005. In my opinion, no politician has the right to dispose of state territories without a referendum vote of the citizens.
And of course the Kadyrov family as consecutive presidents of Chechnya... it's like Ben Ladan the Governor of Texas.

[Drummond]

Hello 'ruslanbag'. I hope you enjoy this forum - welcome ! For myself ... I'm not an American, but a British Conservative.

I can tell you, quite simply, what I think about the Ukrainian / Crimea situation.

What you have in Putin is a leader who misses the old Soviet days ... and in a fit of Soviet-style imperial arrogance, he's decided to start behaving as the Soviet Empire did. Crimea has been annexed, as a simple territorial grab. The so-called 'Referendum' held there to decide whether Russia takes it back, isn't considered legitimate on the international stage, and so isn't trusted.

As for Ukraine ... it's fighting for its freedom !! Everyone knows that Russian forces have a presence in the east of the country, but Putin hasn't the guts to admit it. More ... Russia hopes to see Ukraine brought to its knees financially, this facilitating Ukraine's eventual enforced takeover.

There's a singer / politician lady called Zlata Ognevic. Her resistance to Russia's arrogance is legendary .. she is highly inspiring. I invite you to do some research on her.

Then again, you could watch this video ....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANHMtnbXKzM

I hope you enjoy it.

Best wishes ....

[ruslanbag43]

Hello Drummond.
I could discuss and challenge virtually every line of your letter... but I'm tired of it. The last couple of years I watch almost hell on forums in Russia, for many Ukrainians, Poles, Estonians talk on forums of Russia and it often ends in insults and empty slogans that nested in people's heads.
However, all these disputes, it disputes theorists, people who believe the media in their countries.
And yet, one item I can challenge.

Hello 'ruslanbag'. I ... it's fighting for its freedom !! Everyone knows that Russian forces have a presence in the east of the country, but Putin hasn't the guts to admit it. More ...
I was there in Donetskoy region, Slavyansk, Debaltsevo and Lodowicke. There definitely are fighting on the side of the militia are citizens of Russia, it is natural, most of them ex-military... in Russia most of the men served in the army and many have military experience. But the Russian army is not in the Donbas and in Luhansk.
There are no military units, divisions, battalions. In the East of Ukraine is more than a thousand representatives of the OSCE and none of them found the presence of the army of Russia.

[Drummond]

Hello Drummond.
I could discuss and challenge virtually every line of your letter... but I'm tired of it. The last couple of years I watch almost hell on forums in Russia, for many Ukrainians, Poles, Estonians talk on forums of Russia and it often ends in insults and empty slogans that nested in people's heads.
However, all these disputes, it disputes theorists, people who believe the media in their countries.
And yet, one item I can challenge.

I was there in Donetskoy region, Slavyansk, Debaltsevo and Lodowicke. There definitely are fighting on the side of the militia are citizens of Russia, it is natural, most of them ex-military... in Russia most of the men served in the army and many have military experience. But the Russian army is not in the Donbas and in Luhansk.
There are no military units, divisions, battalions. In the East of Ukraine is more than a thousand representatives of the OSCE and none of them found the presence of the army of Russia.

Whatever the forces (or even lack of them) in eastern Ukraine, our reports indicate Russian intervention exists. It may come in the form of Russia arming rebels, for example.

What is unmistakeable is that Ukraine definitely IS fighting for its freedom. I wish them all possible success in their efforts against Putin's dreams of a new expansionist, Empire-building phase. I tell you, ruslanbag - in my view, and in the view of many of us in the West - Putin is a major threat to world stability. He's one day going to renew a form of Cold War between our nations, UNLESS he can somehow find some sanity within him that'll cause him to back down, and drop all the macho posturing he does on the world stage.

Unbidden incursions, regular ones, that the UK keeps suffering from Russian military planes penetrating UK airspace ... he could order their cessation. I doubt he will. But, he could. It would be an encouraging sign of non-belligerence from him.

[ruslanbag43]

Whatever the forces (or even lack of them) in eastern Ukraine, our reports indicate Russian intervention exists. It may come in the form of Russia arming rebels, for example.

And frolicking the US did not support the Mujahideen in that era when the USSR was in Afghanistan?
Ukrainians supported Dudayev in the first Chechen military campaign.

What are the claims? Why the US can support the Albanian separatists in Serbia, separated from the country of Kosovo... and Russia could not support the Donetska and Luhansk?
In 2014, as a result of Maidan, but it was a violent seizure of power, coup, governance in the country came to the Ukrainian nationalists, the most famous, the same Right Sector
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector
Among other things, they have been celebrating a Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera and achieved its recognition as a national hero, the one who organized the Volyn massacre in Poland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia
As representatives of the right sector participated in the may 2 tragedy in Odessa in 2014 when the House of trade Unions burned alive fifty pensioners.


Eastern Ukraine is inhabited by mostly Russian when Ukrainian nationalists have seized power in Kiev that illegally overthrew President Yanukovych, Russian East of the country did the same thing, but called terrorists are only Russian, weird.
Is the right to self-determination of peoples is applied selectively? Someone you can use, and who is not?

[ruslanbag43]

.

What is unmistakeable is that Ukraine definitely IS fighting for its freedom.
For the freedom fighting people of the East of Ukraine, people that slandered the whole World whose rights don't want to admit it.
They have to fight with people wearing Nazi symbols and honoring Hitler
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

[Abbey Marie]

Welcome, ruslanbag. :cool:

I am admittedly not well versed in Russian current events, but I will say that I admire Putin for his determination to fight Muslims.

[ruslanbag43]

Welcome, ruslanbag. :cool:

I am admittedly not well versed in Russian current events, but I will say that I admire Putin for his determination to fight Muslims.
Hello.
However, all such Putin... er, the army of Russia, more correctly... fighting not so much with Muslims and terrorism.
Islam - this culture, it is not bad, no worse and no better than Christianity and other faiths.
Just in the middle East we are faced with a situation where people are poor, no, they are poor or even lower. It's hard to imagine, because hardly anyone of the writers here know what real starvation... starvation, which is killing.
When people are born, grow up and live in such environment is rather naive to expect that they will be imbued with liberal values, i.e. human rights, etc. they will never be education, in order to understand the World, they will never be a medicine and more

However, they know that where people live in prosperity. And folding in the mind, all that I have listed that these people have? Hatred. For the fact that they have nothing and never will be. Natural to uneducated minds are easily influenced by all sorts of preachers who interpret Islam in a militant stance.

I suggest to visit Kazan, in 2018 there will be a football World Cup. Kazan is the capital of the Republic of Tatarstan, and the Tatars are Muslims. And they don't differ much from the Christians, Islam for them is a tradition, not a way of life. Their women cover their heads, no hijab, they don't happen prayers paralyzing the Republic a couple of times a day, women have all the same rights that are the norm like the Russian Christians, they work, do business, suffer from feminism, and dress as they want, as European women.
The essence only in that - in what conditions it grows and man lives, not in what he believes in God.

On the middle East and the war against terrorists... terrorist organization we need to win, but not enough. If the World will not help them, the people of that region will always be terrorists, all generations will be bitter, endless war in their land, the death of their loved ones. You need to understand that the terrorists appear not from good life

[Drummond]

Welcome, ruslanbag. :cool:

I am admittedly not well versed in Russian current events, but I will say that I admire Putin for his determination to fight Muslims.

You have a point, Abbey ... though he proved to be selective about it. His chief aim has been to support Assad against all his enemies. We had reports in our media to show that Putin didn't draw distinctions between groups opposing Assad, with the result that ISIS didn't prove to be his top priority.

[Drummond]

For the freedom fighting people of the East of Ukraine, people that slandered the whole World whose rights don't want to admit it.
They have to fight with people wearing Nazi symbols and honoring Hitler
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

What this says is that the bona fides (i.e the beliefs) of groups involved in fighting Ukraine's enemies are open to question. But I'm failing to find evidence that their opposition to Russia is itself wrong.

Not everyone who fights for freedom had snow-white credentials, unfortunately .. but it doesn't of itself show that what they fight FOR, is wrong.

[Drummond]

Hello.
However, all such Putin... er, the army of Russia, more correctly... fighting not so much with Muslims and terrorism.
Islam - this culture, it is not bad, no worse and no better than Christianity and other faiths.
Just in the middle East we are faced with a situation where people are poor, no, they are poor or even lower. It's hard to imagine, because hardly anyone of the writers here know what real starvation... starvation, which is killing.
When people are born, grow up and live in such environment is rather naive to expect that they will be imbued with liberal values, i.e. human rights, etc. they will never be education, in order to understand the World, they will never be a medicine and more

However, they know that where people live in prosperity. And folding in the mind, all that I have listed that these people have? Hatred. For the fact that they have nothing and never will be. Natural to uneducated minds are easily influenced by all sorts of preachers who interpret Islam in a militant stance.

I suggest to visit Kazan, in 2018 there will be a football World Cup. Kazan is the capital of the Republic of Tatarstan, and the Tatars are Muslims. And they don't differ much from the Christians, Islam for them is a tradition, not a way of life. Their women cover their heads, no hijab, they don't happen prayers paralyzing the Republic a couple of times a day, women have all the same rights that are the norm like the Russian Christians, they work, do business, suffer from feminism, and dress as they want, as European women.
The essence only in that - in what conditions it grows and man lives, not in what he believes in God.

On the middle East and the war against terrorists... terrorist organization we need to win, but not enough. If the World will not help them, the people of that region will always be terrorists, all generations will be bitter, endless war in their land, the death of their loved ones. You need to understand that the terrorists appear not from good life

You say ... 'Islam - this culture, it is not bad, no worse and no better than Christianity and other faiths.' Wow ... you will not find much, if any, agreement with that amongst other forum members !! Indeed ... explore a little, while you're here. Note a certain thread which catalogues a great many Islamic atrocities ... I'd challenge you to show me that Christianity does any of what's reported, itself !!

I also note that you offer a case which is 'apologist' in favour of the incidence of terrorism. I suggest in reply that normal human beings have a sense of right v wrong, and that those who don't, who see nothing wrong with terrorism, can most definitely have their very humanity thrown into question !!! You don't favour regions which turn out to be hotbeds of terrorism ... you deal with the terrorism as the manifestation of savage, subhuman criminality, that it truly is !!

Perhaps, in the wake of 9/11, America should've gone to Afghanistan 'bearing gifts', not attacking with bombs ????

[Drummond]

And frolicking the US did not support the Mujahideen in that era when the USSR was in Afghanistan?
Ukrainians supported Dudayev in the first Chechen military campaign.

What are the claims? Why the US can support the Albanian separatists in Serbia, separated from the country of Kosovo... and Russia could not support the Donetska and Luhansk?
In 2014, as a result of Maidan, but it was a violent seizure of power, coup, governance in the country came to the Ukrainian nationalists, the most famous, the same Right Sector
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector
Among other things, they have been celebrating a Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera and achieved its recognition as a national hero, the one who organized the Volyn massacre in Poland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia
As representatives of the right sector participated in the may 2 tragedy in Odessa in 2014 when the House of trade Unions burned alive fifty pensioners.


Eastern Ukraine is inhabited by mostly Russian when Ukrainian nationalists have seized power in Kiev that illegally overthrew President Yanukovych, Russian East of the country did the same thing, but called terrorists are only Russian, weird.
Is the right to self-determination of peoples is applied selectively? Someone you can use, and who is not?

Back in the days when the Mujahiddeen received foreign support, what was being supported was their quest for freedom in the wake of a Russian invasion of their country !! The Russian presence in Afghanistan was one of your country's more shameful acts of invasive aggression against a Nation State.

May I remind you that Afghanistan's Mujahiddeen was NOT Al Qaeda ? Al Qaeda formed after the Mujahiddeen had done its job and begun to know freedom from the Russian takeover. Previously, they were genuinely classifiable as freedom fighters.

I'm saddened to see that you look to 'quality of opposition' rather than the value of the CAUSE being fought for. Ukraine wants to be free of Russia (certainly in the more Western provinces, anyway) and not controlled rigidly by Russia instead, as they were in the disgusting Soviet era. I say to you .. they have a right to be free !!

If I understand you correctly, you seem not to sympathise with such a right. I am saddened by that, and I hope that you can separate yourself from whatever pro-Russian propaganda you've been fed sufficiently well to at least recognise that national freedom is a prize, and A RIGHT, well worth fighting for and defending.

[ruslanbag43]

Back in the days when the Mujahiddeen received foreign support, what was being supported was their quest for freedom in the wake of a Russian invasion of their country !! The Russian presence in Afghanistan was one of your country's more shameful acts of invasive aggression against a Nation State.

May I remind you that Afghanistan's Mujahiddeen was NOT Al Qaeda ? Al Qaeda formed after the Mujahiddeen had done its job and begun to know freedom from the Russian takeover. Previously, they were genuinely classifiable as freedom fighters.

)))
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda
You want to say that when in Afghanistan were Russian, they trampled on freedom, and when the Americans came, fighting with these same people they are at war with terrorists?
It's funny, as your further arguments about the influence of propaganda.

[ruslanbag43]

Ukraine wants to be free of Russia (certainly in the more Western provinces, anyway) and not controlled rigidly by Russia instead, as they were in the disgusting Soviet era. I say to you .. they have a right to be free !!
I understand you and believe me, for many years Russia has no influence over Ukraine, even with Maidan 2005.

Only here the counter question - and the residents of the East have the right to be free?
Ukrainian nationalists came to power, go your own way, create battalions with swastikas, acknowledged national heroes at the state level Nazi collaborators of world war II, Stepan Bandera, read about it the link?
But the inhabitants of the East do not agree with this state of Affairs, apparently has to die for their freedom.

[ruslanbag43]

You say ... 'Islam - this culture, it is not bad, no worse and no better than Christianity and other faiths.' Wow ... you will not find much, if any, agreement with that amongst other forum members !! Indeed ... explore a little, while you're here. Note a certain thread which catalogues a great many Islamic atrocities ... I'd challenge you to show me that Christianity does any of what's reported, itself !!

I also note that you offer a case which is 'apologist' in favour of the incidence of terrorism. I suggest in reply that normal human beings have a sense of right v wrong, and that those who don't, who see nothing wrong with terrorism, can most definitely have their very humanity thrown into question !!! You don't favour regions which turn out to be hotbeds of terrorism ... you deal with the terrorism as the manifestation of savage, subhuman criminality, that it truly is !!

Perhaps, in the wake of 9/11, America should've gone to Afghanistan 'bearing gifts', not attacking with bombs ????
Yeah, I don't think Islam is better or worse than other faiths.
And ask you to be correct in his statements, it looks like xenophobia. I don't want to discuss religion and indiscriminately smear mud people and Nations. There are bad people, concrete, but there are no bad Nations, there are no bad religions

[Drummond]

Yeah, I don't think Islam is better or worse than other faiths.
And ask you to be correct in his statements, it looks like xenophobia. I don't want to discuss religion and indiscriminately smear mud people and Nations. There are bad people, concrete, but there are no bad Nations, there are no bad religions

There are no bad religions ??

Christianity does not spawn the worldwide terrorism that Islam does. Or perhaps you can point me to evidence of a Christian '9/11' attack ?

It's not as though anyone can credibly claim that there are 'misguided extremists', with their incidence being very rare in this world. On the contrary ... versions of Islamic terrorism surface, and are led by various groups, thousands of miles apart. Not the one group. Not offshoots of the one group. But various groups.

If Islam isn't a LOT worse ... can you explain all of the contents of this following thread .. ? Here's a link to just one entry, amongst several hundreds there ...

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?37131-Most-recent-muslim-terrorist-attacks&p=818497#post818497

[Drummond]

I understand you and believe me, for many years Russia has no influence over Ukraine, even with Maidan 2005.

Only here the counter question - and the residents of the East have the right to be free?
Ukrainian nationalists came to power, go your own way, create battalions with swastikas, acknowledged national heroes at the state level Nazi collaborators of world war II, Stepan Bandera, read about it the link?
But the inhabitants of the East do not agree with this state of Affairs, apparently has to die for their freedom.

Regardless of the exact makeup of Ukrainian politics these days, the fact remains that they're scared of another Soviet-style takeover of Ukraine by Russia. The land-grab of Crimea shows that their concerns are justified. I repeat .. the 'Referendum' conducted to decide Crimea's future isn't seen in the West as having been conducted with any legitimacy.

See this ... which, no doubt, your Russian media is entirely silent about ....

https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/11/17/crimea-human-rights-decline


Russian and local authorities have severely curtailed human rights protections in Crimea since Russia began its occupation of the peninsula in February 2014. The report, based on recent, on-the-ground research in Crimea, describes the human rights consequences of the extension of Russian law and policy to Crimea since the occupation. Russia has violated multiple obligations it has as an occupying power under international humanitarian law – in particular in relation to the protection of civilians’ rights, Human Rights Watch found.

The 37-page report, “Rights in Retreat: Abuses in Crimea,” and accompanying video document the intimidation and harassment of Crimea residents who oppose Russia’s actions in Crimea, in particular Crimean Tatars, as well as activists and journalists. The authorities have failed to rein in abuses by paramilitary groups implicated in serious human rights abuses, including enforced disappearances of pro-Ukrainian activists and others perceived as critical of Russia.

The authorities have compelled Crimea residents who were Ukrainian citizens either to become Russian citizens or, if they reject Russian citizenship, to be deemed foreigners in Crimea, removing any guarantee against any future potential expulsion.

“As the world’s attention has been on the hostilities in eastern Ukraine, rights abuses in Crimea have surged,” said Yulia Gorbunova, Europe and Central Asia researcher at Human Rights Watch. “Under various pretexts, such as combating extremism, the authorities have been persecuting people who dared to openly voice criticism of Russia’s actions on the peninsula.”

Soviet Russia, Mark #2, in its fledgling stages ? I think so !

[Drummond]

)))
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda
You want to say that when in Afghanistan were Russian, they trampled on freedom, and when the Americans came, fighting with these same people they are at war with terrorists?
It's funny, as your further arguments about the influence of propaganda.

That Russia just 'walked' into Afghanistan and took it over, is established, historical fact. The Mujahiddeen worked to regain their country from the invaders.

And I say again ... the Mujahiddeen, back then, were solely concerned with fighting to regain their own country - in the face of Russian aggression. They mutated in later years ... and not before 1988, EIGHT YEARS after Russia took Afghanistan over ... into a terrorist group.

The link you've provided records the origin-year of Al Qaeda, backing up what I'm telling you.

[ruslanbag43]

There are no bad religions ??

Yes, there are no bad religions. I wrote it, because it is not necessary to ask twice.

And I want to remind you about one product of the Christian World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler
No terrorists have caused such damage to humanity as is creation. In Russia you will not find any families where not killed anyone else during World war II.

We know what a tragedy is and why we hold a grudge against the Germans.

[ruslanbag43]

Regardless of the exact makeup of Ukrainian politics these days, the fact remains that they're scared of another Soviet-style takeover of Ukraine by Russia. The land-grab of Crimea shows that their concerns are justified. I repeat .. the 'Referendum' conducted to decide Crimea's future isn't seen in the West as having been conducted with any legitimacy.

See this ... which, no doubt, your Russian media is entirely silent about ....
You have some kind of complex Gods... the West! You the Supreme court?
You decide to determine to who and what?

But now to the point, You were in the Crimea? You talked with the inhabitants of the Crimea? They don't want to have anything to do with the current nationalist Ukraine, where people were burned alive, at a rally against the current government. It's their choice

[ruslanbag43]

That Russia just 'walked' into Afghanistan and took it over, is established, historical fact. The Mujahiddeen worked to regain their country from the invaders.

And I say again ... the Mujahiddeen, back then, were solely concerned with fighting to regain their own country - in the face of Russian aggression. They mutated in later years ... and not before 1988, EIGHT YEARS after Russia took Afghanistan over ... into a terrorist group.

The link you've provided records the origin-year of Al Qaeda, backing up what I'm telling you.So people do the same.
If Russia seized and repaired tyranny (for what? For the sake of laughter?). What do You there?

You yourself don't seem to be your opus ridiculous. Russia in Afghanistan was for the capture... er, apparently bare rocks. And You are there to spread democracy.
Very funny.

Propaganda. Well, you can see that you know how to do it

[ruslanbag43]

https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/11/17/crimea-human-rights-decline



Soviet Russia, Mark #2, in its fledgling stages ? I think so !
For me, this source is not authoritative. As they say in Russia - paper can endure

[Drummond]

Yes, there are no bad religions. I wrote it, because it is not necessary to ask twice.

And I want to remind you about one product of the Christian World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler
No terrorists have caused such damage to humanity as is creation. In Russia you will not find any families where not killed anyone else during World war II.

We know what a tragedy is and why we hold a grudge against the Germans.

I note from the link you've offered that Hitler is recorded as being 'skeptical of religion generally'. So, can Hitler be said to be a product of the Christian world, if his mindset was one of skepticism ?

If terrorism is given sufficient latitude, it'll create more and ever more atrocities. What happens if they get their hands on nukes, or other WMD's ? The chief source (almost the ONLY source) of world terrorism comes from the 'religion' of Islam.

Have you yet taken a look at the link I provided ? One containing hundreds of posts, reporting a terrible catalogue of continuing Islamic terrorism ? One which I say has no equivalent, nowhere near it, from any other religion.

I don't doubt for a second that, in WWII, Russia paid a terrible human price thanks to Hitler. I'd nonetheless suggest that this still doesn't justify Russia's imperialistic Soviet Union - nor its current, albeit creeping, belligerence under Putin.

[Drummond]

So people do the same.
If Russia seized and repaired tyranny (for what? For the sake of laughter?). What do You there?

You yourself don't seem to be your opus ridiculous. Russia in Afghanistan was for the capture... er, apparently bare rocks. And You are there to spread democracy.
Very funny.

Propaganda. Well, you can see that you know how to do it

Russia's invasion and takeover of Afghanistan is recorded historic fact. Scornful you may be of the West's understanding of it, but fact is fact. It's not propaganda - it happened.

[Drummond]

For me, this source is not authoritative. As they say in Russia - paper can endure

I suspect that no source which asserts what that one has, will ever be seen by you as authoritative. You'll reject them all, without further consideration. Am I right ?

You prefer the version of events and conditions which your own - highly controlled ? - media feeds you.

[ruslanbag43]

Russia's invasion and takeover of Afghanistan is recorded historic fact. Scornful you may be of the West's understanding of it, but fact is fact. It's not propaganda - it happened.
The entrance of Soviet troops into Afghanistan was coordinated with the legal authorities of the country.
And with whom NATO has agreed?
Stay in power of the Communists, which was before the entry of the red Army, led the country to a culture where the woman is not a thing but a person. And the Red Army fought against the people who proclaimed the Sharia law, where there is slavery, where the woman's standing in society below the dog. For the freedom of the Mujahideen vocali? Yeah [sarcasm]

[ruslanbag43]

I suspect that no source which asserts what that one has, will ever be seen by you as authoritative. You'll reject them all, without further consideration. Am I right ?

You prefer the version of events and conditions which your own - highly controlled ? - media feeds you.I prefer to trust people, not corrupt journalists, no matter Russian or Western. I was vacationing in the Crimea that year, I talked to inhabitants of the Crimea. They don't want to be with Ukraine and never wanted the story of this controversy in the Crimea comes from the collapse of the Soviet Union

Look
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/eur50/002/2010/en/
This is the same terrorist who recently organized a terrorist attack in Turkey, where dozens of people were killed.
He was released thanks to the dozens of Western human rights organizations. Who is responsible for this?

Your human rights organisations cynical and corrupt, and the words mean nothing. The blood of the innocent killed in Turkey on their hands.

[Drummond]

The entrance of Soviet troops into Afghanistan was coordinated with the legal authorities of the country.
And with whom NATO has agreed?
Stay in power of the Communists, which was before the entry of the red Army, led the country to a culture where the woman is not a thing but a person. And the Red Army fought against the people who proclaimed the Sharia law, where there is slavery, where the woman's standing in society below the dog. For the freedom of the Mujahideen vocali? Yeah [sarcasm]

The 'legal authorities of the country' were, at that precise time, a Communist regime which was failing. Since it was failing, the USSR moved to ensure that it ceased to fail. This they did by militarily intervening ... because to see Afghanistan run by any form of power that wasn't friendly to it, one that wouldn't resemble the USSR's own, was intolerable to them.

So, the invasion happened.

What the PEOPLE of Afghanistan wanted, wasn't a consideration. The USSR didn't care, any more than they did when they militarily invaded Hungary in 1956, or Czechoslovakia in 1968. No - to them, the form of Government in Afghanistan had to be one that THEY could accept.

The very nature of Communist rule is that of placing the almighty State above all else. People as individuals are an irrelevance to anyone running such a system. Thus it was that the Russians had contempt for Afghanistan's own freedom. A Communist Government had to succeed there, so far as they were concerned, because the people of Afghanistan had to be ruled with iron control.

So it was that Afghanistan became ruled by a Communist puppet regime, under Babrak Karmal.

Interestingly, you're most 'disparaging' when it comes to Sharia Law, itself a product of Islam ... which, according to you, is no worse than other religions. Yet, when applied politically and socially, you are critical of Islam's outcome in human terms?

I suggest that you reconsider your own position on Islam. You simultaneously accept, yet do not accept at all, Islam's great faults as a religion !

[Drummond]

I prefer to trust people, not corrupt journalists, no matter Russian or Western. I was vacationing in the Crimea that year, I talked to inhabitants of the Crimea. They don't want to be with Ukraine and never wanted the story of this controversy in the Crimea comes from the collapse of the Soviet Union

Look
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/eur50/002/2010/en/
This is the same terrorist who recently organized a terrorist attack in Turkey, where dozens of people were killed.
He was released thanks to the dozens of Western human rights organizations. Who is responsible for this?

Your human rights organisations cynical and corrupt, and the words mean nothing. The blood of the innocent killed in Turkey on their hands.

I suspect that people you met in Crimea told you what you wanted to hear, because they feared consequences arising out of doing otherwise.

And I say again ... the Crimea Referendum wasn't accepted as legitimate, and many questions were asked about the way it was run.

As for your diversionary point about a 'terrorist' who organised that terrorist attack ... well, Leftie authorities ARE known for their favouring of undesirables ! The ECHR in Europe has taken similarly controversial decisions which favour other terrorists.

But this proves nothing in terms of the correctness of my case. The report about Crimea's conditions isn't disproven. Far from it.

[ruslanbag43]

The 'legal authorities of the country' were, at that precise time, a Communist regime which was failing. Since it was failing, the USSR moved to ensure that it ceased to fail. This they did by militarily intervening ... because to see Afghanistan run by any form of power that wasn't friendly to it, one that wouldn't resemble the USSR's own, was intolerable to them.

So, the invasion happened.

What the PEOPLE of Afghanistan wanted, wasn't a consideration.
It was the legitimate authority in the country, but you have imagined himself to those who will distribute the labels to find out who is the puppet and who is not?
Hmm... it's really a God complex. Always right [ironic]

[ruslanbag43]

Interestingly, you're most 'disparaging' when it comes to Sharia Law, itself a product of Islam ... which, according to you, is no worse than other religions. Yet, when applied politically and socially, you are critical of Islam's outcome in human terms?

I suggest that you reconsider your own position on Islam. You simultaneously accept, yet do not accept at all, Islam's great faults as a religion !
)))
I am a Chechen, I'm from the clans Kay and believe me, about Islam, I know more than You.
The Sharia, for many Muslims it's not relevant and tratitsya wittingly or not enforced. The Christians were all the same, only time it changed.

To review you say))) will put a mirror as anything else.

[ruslanbag43]

I suspect that people you met in Crimea told you what you wanted to hear, because they feared consequences arising out of doing otherwise.

And I say again ... the Crimea Referendum wasn't accepted as legitimate, and many questions were asked about the way it was run.

As for your diversionary point about a 'terrorist' who organised that terrorist attack ... well, Leftie authorities ARE known for their favouring of undesirables ! The ECHR in Europe has taken similarly controversial decisions which favour other terrorists.

But this proves nothing in terms of the correctness of my case. The report about Crimea's conditions isn't disproven. Far from it.I don't know how to tell you, I have friends in the Crimea, there are co-workers, my knowledge is not from the lying media.
And about the "afraid of consequences" - ))) who in your country is responsible for propaganda? Do you really believe that in the 21st in Russia touring the KGB and punish those who are against Putin?

Yes, we have opposition media, dozens, hundreds of publications, which pour dirt on the government and the people - freedom of speech
About the fact that the West does not recognize the Crimean referendum, uh, you still think yourselves superior court?

Not accept, it is your headaches.

[Gunny]

)))
I am a Chechen, I'm from the clans Kay and believe me, about Islam, I know more than You.
The Sharia, for many Muslims it's not relevant and tratitsya wittingly or not enforced. The Christians were all the same, only time it changed.

To review you say))) will put a mirror as anything else.

Write this down. In the end, we'll be on the same side. Trying to save our cultures. The Islamic plague is on its way and spreading. Terrorism seems to be the preferred method of warfare, both external and internal. It's got to stop.

You've covered a lot of ground here. I'm a Cold War military baby and retired Marine. I'm born, bred and trained to hate you. But let's put the blame where it belongs. The aggressors here are fundamental Islamists. Not Russians nor Americans. We stop it before it's too late or it will jut cost us more.

[Drummond]

I don't know how to tell you, I have friends in the Crimea, there are co-workers, my knowledge is not from the lying media.
And about the "afraid of consequences" - ))) who in your country is responsible for propaganda? Do you really believe that in the 21st in Russia touring the KGB and punish those who are against Putin?

Yes, we have opposition media, dozens, hundreds of publications, which pour dirt on the government and the people - freedom of speech
About the fact that the West does not recognize the Crimean referendum, uh, you still think yourselves superior court?

Not accept, it is your headaches.

I would say that we have a far greater love of freedom here in the West. This does lend us a certain 'superiority' ... I'd suggest. Not for us the building of empires through sheer subjugation.

Anyway ... that said, Gunny talks good sense (Putin's own ambitions notwithstanding).

[ruslanbag43]

Write this down. In the end, we'll be on the same side. Trying to save our cultures. The Islamic plague is on its way and spreading. Terrorism seems to be the preferred method of warfare, both external and internal. It's got to stop.

You've covered a lot of ground here. I'm a Cold War military baby and retired Marine. I'm born, bred and trained to hate you. But let's put the blame where it belongs. The aggressors here are fundamental Islamists. Not Russians nor Americans. We stop it before it's too late or it will jut cost us more.Can't boast that I was trained to hate Americans. I was born before the beginning of "Perestroika" in the USSR, when the state ideological machine did not know what to do.
I was the second Chechen military campaign, and saw the extreme.
What is happening in the middle East by force of arms will not be solved. Destroy the Islamic state is necessary, but not enough. It is impossible to destroy the country and just walk away, these fragments will grow children who will repeat everything.
It is not Islam, it's the people who have nothing.

[Gunny]

Can't boast that I was trained to hate Americans. I was born before the beginning of "Perestroika" in the USSR, when the state ideological machine did not know what to do.
I was the second Chechen military campaign, and saw the extreme.
What is happening in the middle East by force of arms will not be solved. Destroy the Islamic state is necessary, but not enough. It is impossible to destroy the country and just walk away, these fragments will grow children who will repeat everything.
It is not Islam, it's the people who have nothing.

At this point, force of arms is the only way to solve it. You can't un-train a belief. Especially one that's 14 centuries old and been radicalized. You destroy it. That's the only way we've ever kept them in check.

And you got a bunch of war vets on this board. You ain't the only one that's seen it all.

[ruslanbag43]

I would say that we have a far greater love of freedom here in the West. This does lend us a certain 'superiority' ... I'd suggest. Not for us the building of empires through sheer subjugation.

Anyway ... that said, Gunny talks good sense (Putin's own ambitions notwithstanding).
)))If that works for you, then believe it that there are people who love freedom do not like you.

And Yes, of course, we have common challenges that can be solved together... but the questions remain. Who supplies the Islamists in the middle East? The war has been going on for a long time, but someone postavlyaet weapons, ammunition, equipment, food, medicines, etc. In an Islamic State is fighting more than 100,000 people, who in fact contains them.

But there are other challenges that will end badly. The conflict between the leaders of Russia and the USA pushes Russia into an Alliance with China... for me, it's a friend that is worse than the enemy.
China after the annexation of Tibet behaves modestly, but it will not go long.
Today it is the second country in the World, power, influence... one day they will want to be the first

[Gunny]

)))If that works for you, then believe it that there are people who love freedom do not like you.

And Yes, of course, we have common challenges that can be solved together... but the questions remain. Who supplies the Islamists in the middle East? The war has been going on for a long time, but someone postavlyaet weapons, ammunition, equipment, food, medicines, etc. In an Islamic State is fighting more than 100,000 people, who in fact contains them.

But there are other challenges that will end badly. The conflict between the leaders of Russia and the USA pushes Russia into an Alliance with China... for me, it's a friend that is worse than the enemy.
China after the annexation of Tibet behaves modestly, but it will not go long.
Today it is the second country in the World, power, influence... one day they will want to be the first

Since you want to get all cerebral, what problems are there between the US and Rusiia that haven't been created by the media? Somebody does something. The media demands an explanation. Politicians start posturing for the media.

The MSM are the ones in control. They choose our Presidents and choose our wars. Maybe the sheep should wake up to that fact.

[Drummond]

)))If that works for you, then believe it that there are people who love freedom do not like you.

And Yes, of course, we have common challenges that can be solved together... but the questions remain. Who supplies the Islamists in the middle East? The war has been going on for a long time, but someone postavlyaet weapons, ammunition, equipment, food, medicines, etc. In an Islamic State is fighting more than 100,000 people, who in fact contains them.

But there are other challenges that will end badly. The conflict between the leaders of Russia and the USA pushes Russia into an Alliance with China... for me, it's a friend that is worse than the enemy.
China after the annexation of Tibet behaves modestly, but it will not go long.
Today it is the second country in the World, power, influence... one day they will want to be the first

For what my opinion is worth ... if Russia worked at it, it could easily win America as a friend. Abandoning empire-building such as Putin's craving of Ukraine, for example, would count for something. Putin's attitude, reminiscent of the old USSR, is a major damaging factor, and if it could be halted, that would achieve a lot.

[ruslanbag43]

At this point, force of arms is the only way to solve it. You can't un-train a belief. Especially one that's 14 centuries old and been radicalized. You destroy it. That's the only way we've ever kept them in check.

And you got a bunch of war vets on this board. You ain't the only one that's seen it all.You do not understand some things and I think the problem comes from the fact that your people and society does not know what war is like in your home. No, I don't want you.

The people of the middle East have no chance to education, to understanding that life can be different. The Soviet Union therefore had imposed its ideology in Afghanistan, so the people abandoned the barbarous principles of the past, where each person has the right, where the confession is the past.
Freedom for those not burdened with the mind, civilised culture, resulting in Anarchy, violence and the freedom to do anything.

Beautiful word - freedom. But what to say to the victims of wild freedom? Nothing, they are often dead.

[ruslanbag43]

Since you want to get all cerebral, what problems are there between the US and Rusiia that haven't been created by the media? Somebody does something. The media demands an explanation. Politicians start posturing for the media.

The MSM are the ones in control. They choose our Presidents and choose our wars. Maybe the sheep should wake up to that fact.
It will always be. Those who choose presidents, will always share this World with each other... and will always be compromises, because there will be wars

[Gunny]

You do not understand some things and I think the problem comes from the fact that your people and society does not know what war is like in your home. No, I don't want you.

The people of the middle East have no chance to education, to understanding that life can be different. The Soviet Union therefore had imposed its ideology in Afghanistan, so the people abandoned the barbarous principles of the past, where each person has the right, where the confession is the past.
Freedom for those not burdened with the mind, civilised culture, resulting in Anarchy, violence and the freedom to do anything.

Beautiful word - freedom. But what to say to the victims of wild freedom? Nothing, they are often dead.

I understand a lot more than you think. I totally understand YOU. I'm completely logical. And I bet I've got more time in the Middle East than you. I know exactly what it's like there. Right down to the last mosquito.

How does that excuse these people who have made a business out of making war on noncombatants in the name of a religion? They're making a living off of a perceived hatred and won't even get on an actual battlefield. They like to blow up women and children in a market.

Bet your ass I don't get that. I'm a warrior. I don't fight little girls nor their mommies. I want Daddy to come out and man up.

[ruslanbag43]

For what my opinion is worth ... if Russia worked at it, it could easily win America as a friend. Abandoning empire-building such as Putin's craving of Ukraine, for example, would count for something. Putin's attitude, reminiscent of the old USSR, is a major damaging factor, and if it could be halted, that would achieve a lot.

I hope that our politicians will find a common language. For muscle-flexing in front of each other... it's... who needs it in the long run?
In my opinion, countries will get better when I leave Putin, Merkel and Obama from the leadership of their countries. They have done so much that can no longer properly communicate with each other.
What do you call - the Lame Duck?
The uniqueness of our leaders that they have created a situation which can't go first to compromise.

Russia needs Putin to quit... no, not because he is bad etc.. But because he is not immortal. Russia must learn to live without "the Indispensable strong leader" - need to create a system of government, which in any, even the worst leader, the state apparatus could operate without interruption.
I'm sorry, but when the United States was an idiot in power, Bush, and the country was overall not bad. When Russia was an idiot in power, Yeltsin, we've fallen back to default and 2/3 of the citizens of the country become beggars. The state apparatus should not be arranged so much on one person

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Can't boast that I was trained to hate Americans. I was born before the beginning of "Perestroika" in the USSR, when the state ideological machine did not know what to do.
I was the second Chechen military campaign, and saw the extreme.
What is happening in the middle East by force of arms will not be solved. Destroy the Islamic state is necessary, but not enough. It is impossible to destroy the country and just walk away, these fragments will grow children who will repeat everything.
It is not Islam, it's the people who have nothing.

1. "It is not Islam, it's the people who have nothing."

^^^^ Utter ignorance on full display.

It is Islam.. They fight die and murder under that banner and have been doing so for over 1400 years.
Yet you tell us its not the religion but the poverty of the people!
You would be better served to research the so-called religion better since your lack of knowledge of its violent history from its birth right up to today is so sorely lacking.-Tyr

2."Destroy the Islamic state is necessary, but not enough."
Finally some sense shown in that one fragment of a statement.
Yet you fail to understand, the Hydra has many heads --only when the last head is cut off will the monster die.
Destroy the -- SO-CALLED GOD THEY WORSHIP-- AND THEY ARE NO MORE..
That GOD is the Koran and its commands to murder and enslave ALL none believers.
That you fail to see this proves to me you are lacking in understanding the subject that you discuss (like so many others that defend that disease).
And I myself find ignorance to be no valid excuse..
Poverty my ass-- other nations and religions live in poverty, yet do not go out murdering innocent women and children by the tens of thousands yearly now and by the millions historically, to get attention.
Neither your ignorance nor your lies, can refute the history, that reveals your statement and tossed in "poverty" excuse for Islam are born of either abject ignorance or deliberate deception IMHO..

ISLAM EXISTS ONLY TO MURDER.. Its entire 1400+ year history so amply proves that TRUTH..


http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?37131-Most-recent-muslim-terrorist-attacks
--Tyr

[Black Diamond]

1. "It is not Islam, it's the people who have nothing."

^^^^ Utter ignorance on full display.

It is Islam.. They fight die and murder under that banner and have been doing so for over 1400 years.
Yet you tell us its not the religion but the poverty of the people!
You would be better served to research the so-called religion better since your lack of knowledge of its violent history from its birth right up to today is so sorely lacking.-Tyr

2."Destroy the Islamic state is necessary, but not enough."
Finally some sense shown in that one fragment of a statement.
Yet you fail to understand, the Hydra has many heads --only when the last head is cut off will the monster die.
Destroy the -- SO-CALLED GOD THEY WORSHIP-- AND THEY ARE NO MORE..
That GOD is the Koran and its commands to murder and enslave ALL none believers.
That you fail to see this proves to me you are lacking in understanding the subject that you discuss (like so many others that defend that disease).
And I myself find ignorance to be no valid excuse..
Poverty my ass-- other nations and religions live in poverty, yet do not go out murdering innocent women and children by the tens of thousands yearly now and by the millions historically, to get attention.
Neither your ignorance nor your lies, can refute the history, that reveals your statement and tossed in "poverty" excuse for Islam are born of either abject ignorance or deliberate deception IMHO..

ISLAM EXISTS ONLY TO MURDER.. Its entire 1400+ year history so amply proves that TRUTH..


--Tyr
What is it, in your opinion, that makes people turn to Islam?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

What is it, in your opinion, that makes people turn to Islam?

Fear, stupidity, oppression and Fear
Once in control they tolerate not even the tiniest bit of dissent.
They charge into the streets to murder, even before establishing that that the accusation is true.
That is the mark of abject fear and total intolerance....
Always sitting and praying for a chance to murder to prove their embrace and loving for their Allah.
Such is total darkness born from just one place--Lucifer himself, so cleverly renamed Allah....

No other entity on earth so resembles the fictional Borg or the all too real Nazi's..--Tyr

[Abbey Marie]

What is it, in your opinion, that makes people turn to Islam?

Like any religion, many of us just go with what we were raised to believe.
But Islam, unlike other religions, also attracts the disaffected, because they perceive it will give them power over others. Disaffected does not equal poor, btw. It often stems from internal/emotional inadequacies, imo.

[Gunny]

Fear, stupidity, oppression and Fear
Once in control they tolerate not even the tiniest bit of dissent.
They charge into the streets to murder, even before establishing that that the accusation is true.
That is the mark of abject fear and total intolerance....
Always sitting and praying for a chance to murder to prove their embrace and loving for their Allah.
Such is total darkness born from just one place--Lucifer himself, so cleverly renamed Allah....

No other entity on earth so resembles the fictional Borg or the all too real Nazi's..--Tyr

As I said I don't care about the specific religion. I do care about the FEAR factor. Our own government, this Russian dude's government, and these Islamic extremists make a living off of it. I don't see much difference between an Islamic extremist and the IRS.

But when was it we started living in fear of everyone and everything? You got fireants in the yard, time to break out the Ortho. I ain't waiting on them to take over my yard then cry for someone to come help me.

The religion is not the disease. The stupid people using it as an excuse are.

[ruslanbag43]

1. "It is not Islam, it's the people who have nothing."

^^^^ Utter ignorance on full display.

It is Islam.. They fight die and murder under that banner and have been doing so for over 1400 years.
Yet you tell us its not the religion but the poverty of the people!
You would be better served to research the so-called religion better since your lack of knowledge of its violent history from its birth right up to today is so sorely lacking.-Tyr

2."Destroy the Islamic state is necessary, but not enough."
Finally some sense shown in that one fragment of a statement.
Yet you fail to understand, the Hydra has many heads --only when the last head is cut off will the monster die.
Destroy the -- SO-CALLED GOD THEY WORSHIP-- AND THEY ARE NO MORE..
That GOD is the Koran and its commands to murder and enslave ALL none believers.
That you fail to see this proves to me you are lacking in understanding the subject that you discuss (like so many others that defend that disease).
And I myself find ignorance to be no valid excuse..
Poverty my ass-- other nations and religions live in poverty, yet do not go out murdering innocent women and children by the tens of thousands yearly now and by the millions historically, to get attention.
Neither your ignorance nor your lies, can refute the history, that reveals your statement and tossed in "poverty" excuse for Islam are born of either abject ignorance or deliberate deception IMHO..

ISLAM EXISTS ONLY TO MURDER.. Its entire 1400+ year history so amply proves that TRUTH..


--TyrI am sorry that did not immediately respond... been busy.

Ignorance... hmm. And you know that Islam is divided into many sects, soufisme, Shiite, alavieska etc And many of these movements the Quran is interpreted in different ways. As in Christianity and muslman there are more Orthodox currents, more radical.
Apparently you do not know that Islam and Christianity have much in common, such as the prophet ISA... is Jesus. Many dogmas are completely identical.
Ignorance... Yes, that's it.

What you write here, this is scary stuff, your reasoning about Muslims reminiscent of the arguments of the Jews by the Germans of the era of the third Reich. You smear mud at a billion people, adults, children, the elderly, people who hate you do not. This is the road of fascism, pardon the bluntness.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I am sorry that did not immediately respond... been busy.

Ignorance... hmm. And you know that Islam is divided into many sects, soufisme, Shiite, alavieska etc And many of these movements the Quran is interpreted in different ways. As in Christianity and muslman there are more Orthodox currents, more radical.
Apparently you do not know that Islam and Christianity have much in common, such as the prophet ISA... is Jesus. Many dogmas are completely identical.
Ignorance... Yes, that's it.

What you write here, this is scary stuff, your reasoning about Muslims reminiscent of the arguments of the Jews by the Germans of the era of the third Reich. You smear mud at a billion people, adults, children, the elderly, people who hate you do not. This is the road of fascism, pardon the bluntness.

Islam--means total obedience. It is a cult that when in --total-- control of any nation/territory murders all that do not adhere to that( only exception being made only for slaves and those in dhimmitude).
1400+ year history proves that .......-TYR


Link---



http://www.dhimmitude.org/

The Status of Non-Muslim Minorities Under Islamic Rule

Dhimmitude: the Islamic system of governing populations conquered by jihad wars, encompassing all of the demographic, ethnic, and religious aspects of the political system. The word "dhimmitude" as a historical concept, was coined by Bat Ye'or in 1983 to describe the legal and social conditions of Jews and Christians subjected to Islamic rule. The word "dhimmitude" comes from dhimmi, an Arabic word meaning "protected". Dhimmi was the name applied by the Arab-Muslim conquerors to indigenous non-Muslim populations who surrendered by a treaty (dhimma) to Muslim domination. Islamic conquests expanded over vast territories in Africa, Europe and Asia, for over a millennium (638-1683). The Muslim empire incorporated numerous varied peoples which had their own religion, culture, language and civilization. For centuries, these indigenous, pre-Islamic peoples constituted the great majority of the population of the Islamic lands. Although these populations differed, they were ruled by the same type of laws, based on the shari'a.

This similarity, which includes also regional variations, has created a uniform civilization developed throughout the centuries by all non-Muslim indigenous people, who were vanquished by a jihad-war and governed by shari'a law. It is this civilization which is called dhimmitude. It is characterized by the different strategies developed by each dhimmi group to survive as non-Muslim entity in their Islamized countries. Dhimmitude is not exclusively concerned with Muslim history and civilization. Rather it investigates the history of those non-Muslim peoples conquered and colonized by jihad.

Dhimmitude encompasses the relationship of Muslims and non-Muslims at the theological, social, political and economical levels. It also incorporates the relationship between the numerous ethno-religious dhimmi groups and the type of mentality that they have developed out of their particular historical condition which lasted for centuries, even in some Muslim countries, till today.

Dhimmitude is an entire integrated system, based on Islamic theology. It cannot be judged from the circumstantial position of any one community, at a given time and in a given place. Dhimmitude must be appraised according to its laws and customs, irrespectively of circumstances and political contingencies.



^^^ -Hoss, you only know more than I about the curse called Islam if you are muslim yourself, so do not accuse me of ignorance.
And even , IF YOU ARE MUSLIM YOURSELF, YOUR CRY OF MY CONDEMNING BILLIONS PROVES EXACTLY WHAT--IF THE CONDEMNATION IS TRUTH????
SO THE FACT NOT ALL ARE MURDERING PROVES WHAT?
DID EVERY MEMBER OF EVERY RACE , RELIGION, CULT OR NATION COMMIT ACTS THAT HISTORY AND CIVILIZATION NOW RIGHTLY CONDEMNS?.-Tyr

ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY ARE JUST ABOUT AS FAR APART AS ANY TWO RELIGIONS CAN BE..
ISLAM TEACHES ,HATE, MURDER AND BLIND TOTAL OBEDIENCE-WHILE CHRISTIANITY TEACHES, LOVE, FORGIVENESS AND PEACE.
ISLAM TEACHES SALVATION BY MAN'S OWN HAND(TOTAL BLIND OBEDIENCE) , WHILE CHRISTIANITY TEACHES SALVATION IS A GIFT FROM GOD BY WAY OF ACCEPTING THE SACRIFICE MADE BY HIS SON- JESUS CHRIST..-TYR

I fear your words betray you quite early on--but we shall see....
Are you muslim or just another apologist/appeaser??--Tyr

[ruslanbag43]

-



^^^ -Hoss, you only know more than I about the curse called Islam if you are muslim yourself, so do not accuse me of ignorance.
And even , IF YOU ARE MUSLIM YOURSELF, YOUR CRY OF MY CONDEMNING BILLIONS PROVES EXACTLY WHAT--IF THE CONDEMNATION IS TRUTH????
SO THE FACT NOT ALL ARE MURDERING PROVES WHAT?
DID EVERY MEMBER OF EVERY RACE , RELIGION, CULT OR NATION COMMIT ACTS THAT HISTORY AND CIVILIZATION NOW RIGHTLY CONDEMNS?.-Tyr

ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY ARE JUST ABOUT AS FAR APART AS ANY TWO RELIGIONS CAN BE..
ISLAM TEACHES ,HATE, MURDER AND BLIND TOTAL OBEDIENCE-WHILE CHRISTIANITY TEACHES, LOVE, FORGIVENESS AND PEACE.
ISLAM TEACHES SALVATION BY MAN'S OWN HAND(TOTAL BLIND OBEDIENCE) , WHILE CHRISTIANITY TEACHES SALVATION IS A GIFT FROM GOD BY WAY OF ACCEPTING THE SACRIFICE MADE BY HIS SON- JESUS CHRIST..-TYR

I fear your words betray you quite early on--but we shall see....
Are you muslim or just another apologist/appeaser??--Tyrfacepalm... it's kind of your word? It is used in certain circumstances... and now it is.

Your texts give a fierce xenophobia and propaganda that it's ridiculous. ))

[Gunny]

You do not understand some things and I think the problem comes from the fact that your people and society does not know what war is like in your home. No, I don't want you.

The people of the middle East have no chance to education, to understanding that life can be different. The Soviet Union therefore had imposed its ideology in Afghanistan, so the people abandoned the barbarous principles of the past, where each person has the right, where the confession is the past.
Freedom for those not burdened with the mind, civilised culture, resulting in Anarchy, violence and the freedom to do anything.

Beautiful word - freedom. But what to say to the victims of wild freedom? Nothing, they are often dead.

Again, I got the picture. Don't don't confuse me with you you. You appear to be the one that won't listen to anything but yourself. I've come across people like you in droves. I am quite aware of the socio-economic issues in the Middle East. I know the difference between the Sunni and Shia and which radical groups are supported by who.

YOU are doing exactly what I didn't do. Underestimating your opponent. I started living in the Middle East when I was 2. When Dad is an Arabic linguist just where do you think you're going to get stationed? Then there are of those expense paid vacations there courtesy of the Marine Corps.

So why don't you quit feeling superior and posturing and try having a discussion? You're not saying anything I haven't said for years and years. How do you offer and explain democracy (you use the word "freedom") to a people and culture that have no idea what the word means? You can't. Americans tend to believe that because they think something, everyone else does and if you say things like this then the left hauls out the racist card as their argument. I totally get your statement in that regard.

I will also offer this point: We made this damned mess. It's our responsibility to fix it. Doesn't matter who did what to whom at this point. Fix the problem. Our media and politicians are too busy posturing in a blame game to actually focus on the issue for all of the above mentioned reasons.

Our President has screwed this up by the numbers. And just so you know, I was totally against going into Iraq in the first place.

[Drummond]

facepalm... it's kind of your word? It is used in certain circumstances... and now it is.

Your texts give a fierce xenophobia and propaganda that it's ridiculous. ))

Here's a question for you ... I'd like you to give as precise an answer as you can.

How many bombings, killings, maimings, attacks, will it take from Islamic terrorists for you to finally concede that you're wrong ? Come on ... put a figure on it.

Because, you see, Islam's catalogue of atrocities on this planet grows by the day. It's been doing so for many years, and yet, there are people such as yourself who absolutely insist upon blinding themselves to that fact. It IS going on. It will CONTINUE TO.

How much is TOO much to excuse ???

[aboutime]

ruslanbag1. Welcome to your introduction into our Western way of living, here on this Forum.

As someone who has visited many nations while in our Navy for 30 years. I believe, The one, and only TRUE way for someone like yourself, or others to understand...even in small ways, what WE ARE LIKE here in the USA. You must experience Being Here, just as WE must experience being THERE in Russia.

What I am trying to explain is; based on my own personal experiences, and travel throughout the World. The One, and Only way for you, or anyone else to fully understand is...TO BE HERE IN PERSON, or for us to BE THERE IN PERSON to fully appreciate, and recognize how we LOVE our nations.

We Americans have constantly bragged about living in the Greatest, Free nation on Earth for all of my nearly seventy years. And I have seen the differences personally. So...I ALSO BELIEVE WE LIVE IN THE GREATEST NATION ON EARTH.

You will never know how we feel until you come here to feel the FREEDOM, LIBERTY, and RIGHTS on your own.
The best remedy for all of your questions would be to SEE them in person.

[Gunny]

Here's a question for you ... I'd like you to give as precise an answer as you can.

How many bombings, killings, maimings, attacks, will it take from Islamic terrorists for you to finally concede that you're wrong ? Come on ... put a figure on it.

Because, you see, Islam's catalogue of atrocities on this planet grows by the day. It's been doing so for many years, and yet, there are people such as yourself who absolutely insist upon blinding themselves to that fact. It IS going on. It will CONTINUE TO.

How much is TOO much to excuse ???

Good question. What I know is you can't beat a belief that is centuries old with bullets. You have to beat the belief. All the West has done is exploit the Middle East. And DO keep that in context with the times. We carved the place up after WWI.

But those people still ride around on camels in their bedsheets by their own choice. They will fight to the death over a sand dune. They have no middle class. You're rich or dirt poor. But blaming that on the West is stupid and West trying to fix it is equally stupid. In THAT regard I agree with Russian guy.

Where I draw the line is when they start exporting their poison at the barrel of a gun. Then it's time to do something.

And in line with AT's comment, try taking a trip to Africa or SE Asia where they have no oil to sell and look at how THEY live. Anyone taking care of them? Nope. We sit and watch them live in squalor and die of diseases easily preventable or starve. They have nothing the West nor anyone else wants so screw 'em.

If you're poor here, you still get a free check and a phone compliments of the welfare state. So to reverse AT's statement I'd say these welfare babies that have all this time to whine and complain should have to go on deployment and see the rest of the world they think they know about for what it really is.