When did things change? About rights and stuff

[darin]

I wonder what happened with the right to do something or to be free FROM something became tangible. The other "rights" - or actual "rights" were things Citizens were allowed to pursue independent of government hindrance. Rights were a shield against road blocks in our pursuit of happiness and now have become a good or service the public DEMANDS of those who contribute to society. Does that make sense?

We think "Healthcare" is now a "right" - but more than it being a right, we demand it be given to us. At the expense of 49% of Americans, 51% of american not only have a RIGHT to access of healthcare, they have the healthcare given to them. They do not have to go out and find their healthcare (insurance). They have the "right" to have that healthcare provided free of cost to them.


1776 to about 1900....Rights= Statements of law that protect citizens from Government influence/interference.

From about 1900-on, but even moreso today:

Rights = Something tangible, or a service the government PROVIDES to its citizens.

We - society - are broken and weak. And wrong as fuck.

[Gunny]

I wonder what happened with the right to do something or to be free FROM something became tangible. The other "rights" - or actual "rights" were things Citizens were allowed to pursue independent of government hindrance. Rights were a shield against road blocks in our pursuit of happiness and now have become a good or service the public DEMANDS of those who contribute to society. Does that make sense?

We think "Healthcare" is now a "right" - but more than it being a right, we demand it be given to us. At the expense of 49% of Americans, 51% of american not only have a RIGHT to access of healthcare, they have the healthcare given to them. They do not have to go out and find their healthcare (insurance). They have the "right" to have that healthcare provided free of cost to them.


1776 to about 1900....Rights= Statements of law that protect citizens from Government influence/interference.

From about 1900-on, but even moreso today:

Rights = Something tangible, or a service the government PROVIDES to its citizens.

We - society - are broken and weak. And wrong as fuck.

I'll contest your first dates only by saying we really lost our Rights in 1865. The government has been eroding them since.

The very people that demand the government give them these "Rights" are also the very people more than willing to trample all over the Rights of others. Rights are only as good as what backs up the paper they're written on.

Note the violence at this last KKK rally and Trump's meetings. The "Party of Peace" has been protesting violence by using violence since the 60s. I honestly don't understand why they can't see their own hypocrisy.

And I by no means am I a proponent of the KKK. However, they have as much Right to peacefully assemble as anyone else. I used have this argument on that other board all the time. What's the difference between your hatred towards them and them towards you. It's "different". Really? Is it? And Obama had been the divisive President since Lincoln.

I completely agree with the point to your post though. We are weak as a society.

[gabosaurus]

Society is defined by a progression of human rights.
Everyone should have a right to decent healthcare. Many people either don't have jobs, or have jobs that don't provide decent healthcare options.
If you have a job where healthcare come with it and follows you wherever you go, then you are spared the ridiculous prices of private companies.
If you are envious of living in the "good old days" before the mid-20th century or so, I think you need to do more research.

[Gunny]

Society is defined by a progression of human rights.
Everyone should have a right to decent healthcare. Many people either don't have jobs, or have jobs that don't provide decent healthcare options.
If you have a job where healthcare come with it and follows you wherever you go, then you are spared the ridiculous prices of private companies.
If you are envious of living in the "good old days" before the mid-20th century or so, I think you need to do more research.

There is no such ting as human rights. You have the rights you are willing to fight for and keep.

You should do some research. We started going downhill as a society the second you lefties and your stupid ideas and stupid lawyers started running the show. It's happened to every society since Greece, and probably before that. You don't have the right to live off me, taking what I earn. You have the right to go find a job. If you need to, 2 jobs. I've done it.

Instead all y'all do is cry about what you don't have handed to you. You don't deserve jack from me. Go out and earn it. I had to.

[Little-Acorn]

I wonder what happened with the right to do something or to be free FROM something became tangible. The other "rights" - or actual "rights" were things Citizens were allowed to pursue independent of government hindrance. Rights were a shield against road blocks in our pursuit of happiness and now have become a good or service the public DEMANDS of those who contribute to society. Does that make sense?
Yep. In a nutshell, rights were prohibitions against government doing certain things. Shutting down your printing press, arresting you without telling you why, trying you without jury, taking away your gun, searching your house without a warrant etc.


We think "Healthcare" is now a "right"
What you mean "we", Kimosabe?

- but more than it being a right, we demand it be given to us. At the expense of 49% of Americans, 51% of american not only have a RIGHT to access of healthcare, they have the healthcare given to them. They do not have to go out and find their healthcare (insurance). They have the "right" to have that healthcare provided free of cost to them.
Pretty silly, eh?

Many people today seem to think a "right" is something that would be handy, or would benefit certain people. Chalk it up to an educational system that never points out (or even discusses) the idea that the govt using tax money to "provide" those "rights", is flatly forbidden by the Constitution... to say nothing of a violation of the Declarations of Indepencence's declaration of what the duties of government are in the first place.

Chalk it up to an educational system that spends more time discussing Prince than the American founding documents.

[Elessar]

There is no such ting as human rights. You have the rights you are willing to fight for and keep.

You should do some research. We started going downhill as a society the second you lefties and your stupid ideas and stupid lawyers started running the show. It's happened to every society since Greece, and probably before that. You don't have the right to live off me, taking what I earn. You have the right to go find a job. If you need to, 2 jobs. I've done it.

Instead all y'all do is cry about what you don't have handed to you. You don't deserve jack from me. Go out and earn it. I had to.

I think what you said outlines it perfectly.

Our Laws outline what are 'Rights'. "You", collectively speaking, have a Right to be a Responsible Citizen according to those
Laws. There is nothing in those Laws that says "You" have the 'Right' to keep reaching into other's pockets and taking what
they had a 'Right' to earn.

Instead of being a constantly whining minority, why not stand up on your own two feet and be a Responsible Citizen? All that
lefties want to be is an exception to the greater good.

[gabosaurus]

Instead of being a constantly whining minority, why not stand up on your own two feet and be a Responsible Citizen? All that
lefties want to be is an exception to the greater good.

Do you guys ever stop whining? All this stuff about "being a responsible citizen," "we earn everything and you take everything" and "exception to the greater good." :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Don't you guys get free health care? What exactly have you "earned" that I haven't? How exactly are you not an exception?

Sorry, but none of you have earned anything that I haven't.
And Gunny, no one is living off of you. If nothing else, you are living off us. You haven't accomplished anything or done anything that surpasses anything I have done. You just think you have.
Get off your high horse and admit the real reality, which is that you are no better than anyone. Quit playing the privilege card.

[aboutime]

Do you guys ever stop whining? All this stuff about "being a responsible citizen," "we earn everything and you take everything" and "exception to the greater good." :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Don't you guys get free health care? What exactly have you "earned" that I haven't? How exactly are you not an exception?

Sorry, but none of you have earned anything that I haven't.
And Gunny, no one is living off of you. If nothing else, you are living off us. You haven't accomplished anything or done anything that surpasses anything I have done. You just think you have.
Get off your high horse and admit the real reality, which is that you are no better than anyone. Quit playing the privilege card.


Thanks Hillary. Or would you rather I call you Elizabeth? Or, Mrs. Obama? The only thing you earn is more disrespect, when you constantly pretend to be better than everyone else. Your hypocrisy in even answering this thread is more than LAUGHABLE, coming from both sides of your MOUTH.

[Gunny]

Do you guys ever stop whining? All this stuff about "being a responsible citizen," "we earn everything and you take everything" and "exception to the greater good." :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Don't you guys get free health care? What exactly have you "earned" that I haven't? How exactly are you not an exception?

Sorry, but none of you have earned anything that I haven't.
And Gunny, no one is living off of you. If nothing else, you are living off us. You haven't accomplished anything or done anything that surpasses anything I have done. You just think you have.
Get off your high horse and admit the real reality, which is that you are no better than anyone. Quit playing the privilege card.

Are you shitting me? I don't get free health care. I have to pay for it. I earned a retirement check just the same as you're trying to do. Why don't you quit comparing you pointless ass to me? I purposefully don't live off your whiny ass because I've got some pride. I don't need you. And I pay taxes just the same as you so you can just forget this bullshit line.

I fought for YOUR right to run your big mouth about nothing. When I retired from the military, I built things for people. Your dumbshit ideas and big mouth do nothing but destroy and serve your petty little self. You preaching peace while preaching hate makes YOU the f*ckup here, not me. You think you should just get things because you exist? Bullshit. Try the real world because when y'all get done destroying our society? I still won't need you.

[Elessar]

Do you guys ever stop whining? All this stuff about "being a responsible citizen," "we earn everything and you take everything" and "exception to the greater good." :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Don't you guys get free health care? What exactly have you "earned" that I haven't? How exactly are you not an exception?

Sorry, but none of you have earned anything that I haven't.
And Gunny, no one is living off of you. If nothing else, you are living off us. You haven't accomplished anything or done anything that surpasses anything I have done. You just think you have.
Get off your high horse and admit the real reality, which is that you are no better than anyone. Quit playing the privilege card.

If I have to use Tri-Care I must pay a co-payment just like everyone else. As a Disabled Vet, if I go through the VA system, I may
have to do the same in some instances. I earned those options as a retired Vet as well as disabled. So, No. We do not get 'free' health care.

You're the one who preaches and whines all of the time that everyone needs to follow your lead. It don't work that way!
We just give examples of what we have done and KNOW...something liberal non-servers cannot fathom. You are no better
than anyone in this room, so get off your hobby-horse and grow up. Growing up is reality, not your preaching ways.

[gabosaurus]

I fought for YOUR right to run your big mouth about nothing. When I retired from the military, I built things for people. Your dumbshit ideas and big mouth do nothing but destroy and serve your petty little self. You preaching peace while preaching hate makes YOU the f*ckup here, not me. You think you should just get things because you exist? Bullshit. Try the real world because when y'all get done destroying our society? I still won't need you.

I don't preach hate. I preach love, harmony and tolerance for all people, regardless of race, religion or national origin.
I don't have anything that I didn't work for. You don't have anything that you didn't work for.
Your thought process is totally misguided.



You're the one who preaches and whines all of the time that everyone needs to follow your lead. It don't work that way!
We just give examples of what we have done and KNOW...something liberal non-servers cannot fathom. You are no better
than anyone in this room, so get off your hobby-horse and grow up. Growing up is reality, not your preaching ways.

My primary problem with conservatives is that they believe they are the only chosen ones. And that everyone freeloads off their efforts. That is entirely incorrect.
No one has to follow my lead. And surely no one has to follow your lead. Or that of anyone else. Everyone needs to find their own way in life.
I don't need anyone's examples to determine the course of my life. I didn't grow up destined for one occupation. I was given a choice of opportunities. Everyone should have the same choice.
The way you have led your life is not a beacon of life. Nor should it be.

[Gunny]

I don't preach hate. I preach love, harmony and tolerance for all people, regardless of race, religion or national origin.
I don't have anything that I didn't work for. You don't have anything that you didn't work for.
Your thought process is totally misguided.



My primary problem with conservatives is that they believe they are the only chosen ones. And that everyone freeloads off their efforts. That is entirely incorrect.
No one has to follow my lead. And surely no one has to follow your lead. Or that of anyone else. Everyone needs to find their own way in life.
I don't need anyone's examples to determine the course of my life. I didn't grow up destined for one occupation. I was given a choice of opportunities. Everyone should have the same choice.
The way you have led your life is not a beacon of life. Nor should it be.

You preach intolerance and hate. My thought process is completely logical. Yours is irrationally, politically motivated. Try again.

[aboutime]

If I have to use Tri-Care I must pay a co-payment just like everyone else. As a Disabled Vet, if I go through the VA system, I may
have to do the same in some instances. I earned those options as a retired Vet as well as disabled. So, No. We do not get 'free' health care.

You're the one who preaches and whines all of the time that everyone needs to follow your lead. It don't work that way!
We just give examples of what we have done and KNOW...something liberal non-servers cannot fathom. You are no better
than anyone in this room, so get off your hobby-horse and grow up. Growing up is reality, not your preaching ways.


Elessar. Gabby is just like millions of other completely UNINFORMED, UNEDUCATED Americans who are convinced WE VETERANS are somehow getting a FREE RIDE with everything related to life....as in Healthcare. In fact. Most of those millions are also convinced that WE VETERANS who retired from the military, spend our retired years...Fishing, Golfing, Traveling, Eating, and being Entertained....ON THEIR DIME.

If only part of it was true, since the politicians love to brag about taking care of our VETERANS, then pretend they didn't know....WE HAVE TO PAY FOR EVERYTHING OURSELVES.
NOTHING IS FREE....not even for the scumbags who refuse to work, since they take OUR dollars to live, and always complain about being treated badly???

I feel sorry for the GABBY'S. Their IGNORANCE never goes away.

[Gunny]

Elessar. Gabby is just like millions of other completely UNINFORMED, UNEDUCATED Americans who are convinced WE VETERANS are somehow getting a FREE RIDE with everything related to life....as in Healthcare. In fact. Most of those millions are also convinced that WE VETERANS who retired from the military, spend our retired years...Fishing, Golfing, Traveling, Eating, and being Entertained....ON THEIR DIME.

If only part of it was true, since the politicians love to brag about taking care of our VETERANS, then pretend they didn't know....WE HAVE TO PAY FOR EVERYTHING OURSELVES.
NOTHING IS FREE....not even for the scumbags who refuse to work, since they take OUR dollars to live, and always complain about being treated badly???

I feel sorry for the GABBY'S. Their IGNORANCE never goes away.


I've spent my retied years trying to figure out how to pay bills with that pittance of a check I get on my "free ride".

[aboutime]

I've spent my retied years trying to figure out how to pay bills with that pittance of a check I get on my "free ride".


Gunny. Agreed. Too bad most civilians who have no idea about Vets, would never be able to survive a week, or a month on what we get for our service-retirement.

I had relatives back in the 90's, after I retired, who were convinced I was being paid over 100K a year for my retirement, and all medical. They thought I was lying when I told them (at that time), how TRICARE did not pick up the tab (at all) for the 8 weeks of Chemo, and Radiation treatments I went through. We almost lost everything we had, and had to resort to circumstances I am not proud to announce here. But it took SEVEN years before we were in the Black.

[jimnyc]

Guys, I wouldn't let her get on your nerves, as if she has the first clue. I've never seen anyone MORE full of shit than her. She'll talk hard when it comes to rights when it comes to - say the 2nd amendment. She'll want to change or take that away. And then in the next breath claim that others have a RIGHT to healthcare.


Sorry, but none of you have earned anything that I haven't

Respect.

[Gunny]

Gunny. Agreed. Too bad most civilians who have no idea about Vets, would never be able to survive a week, or a month on what we get for our service-retirement.

I had relatives back in the 90's, after I retired, who were convinced I was being paid over 100K a year for my retirement, and all medical. They thought I was lying when I told them (at that time), how TRICARE did not pick up the tab (at all) for the 8 weeks of Chemo, and Radiation treatments I went through. We almost lost everything we had, and had to resort to circumstances I am not proud to announce here. But it took SEVEN years before we were in the Black.

They'd spend that check in week and then bitch for the next 3.

And I hear you on the losing everything. I just hold my head up. All I could do.

[Black Diamond]

She gets her rocks off by pissing in veterans' faces and people keep saying she's not that bad.

[aboutime]

Guys, I wouldn't let her get on your nerves, as if she has the first clue. I've never seen anyone MORE full of shit than her. She'll talk hard when it comes to rights when it comes to - say the 2nd amendment. She'll want to change or take that away. And then in the next breath claim that others have a RIGHT to healthcare.



Respect.

Thanks jim, but I actually tend to enjoy everything gabby brings here. She's the best advertisement, or reminder anyone needs, that shows exactly how ignorant, dumb, and nearly brain-dead so many liberal thinking(joke) people are here in America. In fact. The more gabby says, the more opportunity we get to be reminded just how terribly stupid so many Americans really are. So THANK YOU GABBY. Please feel free...thanks to American veterans everywhere, to enjoy your willingness to be the perpetual DUMMY of DP.

[Elessar]

Elessar. Gabby is just like millions of other completely UNINFORMED, UNEDUCATED Americans who are convinced WE VETERANS are somehow getting a FREE RIDE with everything related to life....as in Healthcare. In fact. Most of those millions are also convinced that WE VETERANS who retired from the military, spend our retired years...Fishing, Golfing, Traveling, Eating, and being Entertained....ON THEIR DIME.

If only part of it was true, since the politicians love to brag about taking care of our VETERANS, then pretend they didn't know....WE HAVE TO PAY FOR EVERYTHING OURSELVES.
NOTHING IS FREE....not even for the scumbags who refuse to work, since they take OUR dollars to live, and always complain about being treated badly???

I feel sorry for the GABBY'S. Their IGNORANCE never goes away.


It's just not best to try and back me in a corner. I will discuss, I will listen, but DON'T try to back me into a corner. I've seen more life than
Gabby has, yet...less than some of you other Vets...

[gabosaurus]

She gets her rocks off by pissing in veterans' faces and people keep saying she's not that bad.

BS. I have never done that and I never will. You have a habit of exaggerating and overstating things.
If veterans don't have free health care, they should. If you don't have a better than decent pension, you should. You know every member of Congress does. So do the fat cats in the Pentagon.
If you are a veteran and you don't take advantage of everything that is available to you, whose fault is that?

Some of you have this convoluted idea that anyone outside the military doesn't work for a living. Or that conservatives give and liberal take. Both of which are grounded in arrogance and stupidity.
No one here is special. Not you or me or anyone else.

Respect? Sorry, you have to earn respect.

[Elessar]

Gunny. Agreed. Too bad most civilians who have no idea about Vets, would never be able to survive a week, or a month on what we get for our service-retirement.

I had relatives back in the 90's, after I retired, who were convinced I was being paid over 100K a year for my retirement, and all medical. They thought I was lying when I told them (at that time), how TRICARE did not pick up the tab (at all) for the 8 weeks of Chemo, and Radiation treatments I went through. We almost lost everything we had, and had to resort to circumstances I am not proud to announce here. But it took SEVEN years before we were in the Black.

A lot of Civ jobs give you retirement pay equal to what was earned when employed. Military does not, it is a pay scale taken from your pay grade compared to a 30 year
retirement at the same level, the max being 75%. Mine was 66% when I retired..

[Elessar]

She gets her rocks off by pissing in veterans' faces and people keep saying she's not that bad.

No, BD...she thinks she is "BAD", Sometimes very nice, but most often just completely affrontive...

[gabosaurus]

A lot of Civ jobs give you retirement pay equal to what was earned when employed. Military does not, it is a pay scale taken from your pay grade compared to a 30 year
retirement at the same level, the max being 75%. Mine was 66% when I retired..

The max is 75 pct? Considering that military pay is not substantial in the first place, that is not promising.
Teachers in California get retirement based on an ascending scale. My mom got full retirement because she had 25 years experience, all in the same district. My dad could also take full retirement, but he doesn't because still enjoys what he does.

[Elessar]

BS. I have never done that and I never will. You have a habit of exaggerating and overstating things.
If veterans don't have free health care, they should. If you don't have a better than decent pension, you should. You know every member of Congress does. So do the fat cats in the Pentagon.
If you are a veteran and you don't take advantage of everything that is available to you, whose fault is that?

Some of you have this convoluted idea that anyone outside the military doesn't work for a living. Or that conservatives give and liberal take. Both of which are grounded in arrogance and stupidity.
No one here is special. Not you or me or anyone else.

Respect? Sorry, you have to earn respect.

Arrogance and stupidity? Try again. Yours is ignorance and stupidity.

That is two-way street.
You have to earn Respect yourself. We vets know the difference, so you are pissing up a rope with that comment.

Maybe we should be better off, but your earlier missives do not suggest that. You change faces on topics so often it is hard
to figure out which Gabby is speaking.

[Elessar]

The max is 75 pct? Considering that military pay is not substantial in the first place, that is not promising.
Teachers in California get retirement based on an ascending scale. My mom got full retirement because she had 25 years experience, all in the same district. My dad could also take full retirement, but he doesn't because still enjoys what he does.

I'll give you an impropriety...

When I was in Long Beach CA, it was shown that County Officials retired or separated at Full Salary, to be paid by the
taxpayers for life.

Simple example: The L.A. County Sheriff back then was paid around $254K a year. If he/she quit a year, only a year, later then
$254K was payable for life. No damned wonder CA went down hard in budget.

[Gunny]

BS. I have never done that and I never will. You have a habit of exaggerating and overstating things.
If veterans don't have free health care, they should. If you don't have a better than decent pension, you should. You know every member of Congress does. So do the fat cats in the Pentagon.
If you are a veteran and you don't take advantage of everything that is available to you, whose fault is that?

Some of you have this convoluted idea that anyone outside the military doesn't work for a living. Or that conservatives give and liberal take. Both of which are grounded in arrogance and stupidity.
No one here is special. Not you or me or anyone else.

Respect? Sorry, you have to earn respect.

Take advantage of handouts? What kind of man would that make me? You need to grow up. You sound like my p*ssy-ass brother, who proclaims to be a Republican. He sucking off every dime he can. I walk through the hospital and the VA and see all these people that served YOU broken, crippled and I'm supposed to whine about my knees and ankles? THAT will be the fucking day.

You talk "love"? You don't know what the word means beyond some talking points. You are the one whose thinking is convoluted. You don't deserve something just because you breathe. Oh, and I worked as a civilian almost as long as I was in the Corps. Y'all suck. You're undisciplined and lazy.

People that really need the help should get it. People like you should get nothing. Here's convoluted: this country was founded on the principle of what can you do for the country? Your mind is stuck on what can you do for me? I owe you nothing.

[Little-Acorn]

Do you guys ever stop whining?

It's typical of a criminal or thief that, when caught red-handed, they say that the people who caught them are being unreasonable, or "merely whining", or some other desperate diversion in an attempt to get people's mnds off the fact that they can't refute or disprove what the people have seen them do.

I see the tradition continues.

[fj1200]

We think "Healthcare" is now a "right" - but more than it being a right, we demand it be given to us.

That particular "right" has been the holy grail for much longer than prior to 1900 but it's the direct election of senators that removed the Constitutional control from it eventually happening.

[aboutime]

BS. I have never done that and I never will. You have a habit of exaggerating and overstating things.
If veterans don't have free health care, they should. If you don't have a better than decent pension, you should. You know every member of Congress does. So do the fat cats in the Pentagon.
If you are a veteran and you don't take advantage of everything that is available to you, whose fault is that?

Some of you have this convoluted idea that anyone outside the military doesn't work for a living. Or that conservatives give and liberal take. Both of which are grounded in arrogance and stupidity.
No one here is special. Not you or me or anyone else.

Respect? Sorry, you have to earn respect.


gabby. Not even looking, or hoping to find any respect for, or from you. Your ignorance, backed by your proven, often bragged about liberal education DOES NOT EARN you any respect either.