Brexit losers NOW want to change the rules

[jimnyc]

Over a million whiners? That's what it sounds like. I can understand if they lost by a few hundred votes.... but they didn't. So now unhappy, they want to petition to unwind the whole thing, knowing the vote total won't reach 60%. Sure sounds like a few American liberals in charge over there!!

-----

An online petition calling for a second referendum on the U.K.’s membership of the European Union attracted the support of more than 1.4 million people by early Saturday afternoon in London.

The petition to Parliament says: “We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the Remain or Leave vote is less than 60 percent based a turnout less than 75 percent there should be another referendum.” In Thursday’s referendum, U.K. voters backed a so-called Brexit by 51.9 percent to 48.1 percent with a turnout of 72.2 percent.

Quite how such a change could be implemented retrospectively by the government or lawmakers is unclear, even if there were any appetite for a new vote after a divisive campaign.

Parliament set no thresholds for participation in the legislation that set up the referendum, and the U.K. government ruled out a second vote during the campaign. Following the British vote to leave, European officials have said that the deal worked out with Prime Minister David Cameron to keep Britain in the EU is no longer on the table.

“The referendum has taken place; a decision has been made,” opposition Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn told reporters after a speech in London on Saturday. “I think you’ve got to accept that decision and work out our relationship with Europe in the future.”

http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/1-million-petition-brexit/2016/06/25/id/735623/

[revelarts]

Yep, that's how the world federalist play.

if that doesn't work, some "crisis" may try to force them back into the EU.

[jimnyc]

Yep, that's how the world federalist play.

if that doesn't work, some "crisis" may try to force them back into the EU.

I thought of that yesterday when reading a few articles. Some would definitely not mind finding a way to make that happen. And at the same time, the EU seems to want them out yesterday.

[Noir]

To be honest the Brexit leaders have been very subdued...one kinda gets the feeling that no one was expecting this result, most of all the Brexit leaders (with the exception of Farage) and now they're kinda just floating about instead of going for the throat, very interesting indeed.

Also if you want a laugh look up the stories of the people who voted Brexit who now want to change their vote because they didn't think Brexit would actually win and don't want to leave :laugh:

[jimnyc]

To be honest the Brexit leaders have been very subdued...one kinda gets the feeling that no one was expecting this result, most of all the Brexit leaders (with the exception of Farage) and now they're kinda just floating about instead of going for the throat, very interesting indeed.

Also if you want a laugh look up the stories of the people who voted Brexit who now want to change their vote because they didn't think Brexit would actually win and don't want to leave :laugh:

I know I didn't expect this. While I knew a lot were in favor, I thought for sure the remain was a lock.

[gabosaurus]

I know I didn't expect this. While I knew a lot were in favor, I thought for sure the remain was a lock.

The main mistake pollsters made was doing most of their surveys in London. Which voted overwhelmingly to remain. The rest of England proper went for leave.

[Noir]

How's this for a laugh - it would appear the petition was originally created by an English Democrat supporting the leave campaign, as it looked live leave where going to lose they started the petition to have a second referendum early...and they're now none too pleased that the Remain campaign have used his petition as a result of 'leave' winning.

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j176/jonathan-mcc/8F65C22E-2561-4AB4-840A-D341DC14FB96_zps7lpayc6j.jpeg (http://s80.photobucket.com/user/jonathan-mcc/media/8F65C22E-2561-4AB4-840A-D341DC14FB96_zps7lpayc6j.jpeg.html)

Top quality, that could bring a smile to the most wintery of faces.

[Bilgerat]

Sounds like a tune we've heard once before :laugh:

http://chelm.freeyellow.com/algoreiam.html

[Drummond]

The main mistake pollsters made was doing most of their surveys in London. Which voted overwhelmingly to remain. The rest of England proper went for leave.

This is actually true.

Our polls are proving unreliable these days. Nobody predicted an outright win for the Conservatives in last year's General Election, nobody at all (except for the BBC, just hours before all the results came rolling in !) ... and again, the 'too close to call' presumption was again proven to be false this time around.

Truth of the matter -- only the actual VOTE ITSELF means a damn. Until then, these things are all to play for.

[Atticus Finch]

This is actually true.

Our polls are proving unreliable these days. Nobody predicted an outright win for the Conservatives in last year's General Election, nobody at all (except for the BBC, just hours before all the results came rolling in !) ... and again, the 'too close to call' presumption was again proven to be false this time around.

Truth of the matter -- only the actual VOTE ITSELF means a damn. Until then, these things are all to play for.A British Independence Day of a sort

[darin]

This is actually true.

Our polls are proving unreliable these days. Nobody predicted an outright win for the Conservatives in last year's General Election, nobody at all (except for the BBC, just hours before all the results came rolling in !) ... and again, the 'too close to call' presumption was again proven to be false this time around.

Truth of the matter -- only the actual VOTE ITSELF means a damn. Until then, these things are all to play for.

Keep in mind, modern big-cities are absolutely built around dependence upon government for survival.

Things used to be like this: Men and women were hungry so they gathered and grew and hunted to eat; to stay alive. A cave-graphic-designer would go hungry. A Florist would starve. With cities we build our dependence - our very existence - upon our government's ability and desire to 'take care of us'. After time human psyche changes to accept being a slave-to-the-system as the defacto method of survival. Because human ego will not let us believe we chose poorly, we assume those who have chosen self-reliance are 'wrong' and 'anti-social'. Cities tend to think "If they chose against us, that means they think our choices are WRONG, and we CANNOT be wrong or bad or incapable, because EVERY TIME I EVEN TRIED the result was a trophy; the result was 'win' because we didn't keep score!...If they aren't choosing our method of slavery - erp, I mean 'dependence' they must be the opposite of GOOD. They must be BAD."

Thus - while "individuals" in cities vote 'collectively' for ever-increasing slavery to a centralized government as a substitute for feeling good about their poor life choices or inability to care for themselves, those away from their nanny...away from the teet of Big Broth- erp, BigMOTHER vote for things that enhance THEIR way of life, liberty and their pursuit of happiness.

[Drummond]

A British Independence Day of a sort

It certainly was. Even billed as such by one of the principle 'Leave' arguers, Boris Johnson (Conservative, ex-Mayor of London ... Nigel Farage belatedly said the very same).

[Drummond]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9042&stc=1

[gabosaurus]

To use one of my best friend's husband's favorite phrases, "that is bloody preposterous!"
If you lose, you lose.

[Noir]

Drummond The problem being whichever side lost would try and get the goal posts changed because the vote was always going to be close.

[darin]

Drummond The problem being whichever side lost would try and get the goal posts changed because the vote was always going to be close.

I disagree. I think people on the right value order. We value rule-of-law. Leftists (and I get this wasn't entirely a left/right issue. Because the gov't lied and the media lied so badly, many on the right were probably believing falsehoods and voted 'stay') typically don't give a rat's ass about law - they want whatever their pet issue is to be law.

[Noir]

I disagree. I think people on the right value order. We value rule-of-law. Leftists (and I get this wasn't entirely a left/right issue. Because the gov't lied and the media lied so badly, many on the right were probably believing falsehoods and voted 'stay') typically don't give a rat's ass about law - they want whatever their pet issue is to be law.

So the fact that the 2nd referendum petition was started by a leave campaigner when it looked like they were going to lose. Or a leading proponent of the leave camping, Farage, said that leave losing by something like 52:48 would settle nothing...doesn't cause you to reconsider?

[darin]

No. I'm speaking generally.

Here's what tends to happen:

TheLeft lies, cheats, steals, manipulates, intimidates to get the desired result.

ANY action the Right has to take to show truth? Generally okay. (shrug).

There's NOTHING GOOD from Liberals. Everything in their world view is distorted, ultimately evil, racist, and TERRIBLE for economies of societies.

[Noir]

So when the right creates a petition for a second referendum, thats fine.
When the left carries through on that same petition, its not so fine.
Nice.

[darin]

So when the right creates a petition for a second referendum, thats fine.
When the left carries through on that same petition, its not so fine.
Nice.

That's your jump to conclusion. (shrug)

[Drummond]

To use one of my best friend's husband's favorite phrases, "that is bloody preposterous!"
If you lose, you lose.

This is unusual for a Leftie.

Some Lefties ignore their defeats. Many will spin it for the best self-serving effect they can manage. Some try to change goalposts, or to wheedle some mini-victory out of a shambles.

Witness the SNP, in Scotland. A Leftie Nationalist party ... currently part of the UK, and so definitely 'affected' by Brexit ... still, (a) nonetheless trying to throw a spanner in the works and reject UK democracy as a whole, saying that Scotland didn't want a Brexit, therefore, it must not happen !! ... and, (b) wanting to be an independently separate country ... in order to be subsumed by the EU once more !!

There's a breakdown in logic in all of that. Obviously. But, heyy, these are LEFTIES, so, what do they care ? Winning out - even if it means defying democratic process, and overturning a Brexit vote democratically decided - they're up for it, if they can manage it (which I don't think they can, of course).

[darin]

This is unusual for a Leftie.

Some Lefties ignore their defeats. Many will spin it for the best self-serving effect they can manage. Some try to change goalposts, or to wheedle some mini-victory out of a shambles.

Witness the SNP, in Scotland. A Leftie Nationalist party ... currently part of the UK, and so definitely 'affected' by Brexit ... still, (a) nonetheless trying to throw a spanner in the works and reject UK democracy as a whole, saying that Scotland didn't want a Brexit, therefore, it must not happen !! ... and, (b) wanting to be an independently separate country ... in order to be subsumed by the EU once more !!

There's a breakdown in logic in all of that. Obviously. But, heyy, these are LEFTIES, so, what do they care ? Winning out - even if it means defying democratic process, and overturning a Brexit vote democratically decided - they're up for it, if they can manage it (which I don't think they can, of course).

She's a liar; don't take what she posts as having any basis in reality.


AND.....Leftists are not reasonable.

[Drummond]

She's a liar; don't take what she posts as having any basis in reality.


AND.....Leftists are not reasonable.

... Never were ... never will be ...

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9043&stc=1

[Noir]

... Never were ... never will be ...

The logic from the left has been much stronger -
'We need to leave the EU so we can control immigration by rejecting the Free Movement of peoples...having left the EU we will continue to trade within the single market, which requires acceptance of Free Movement of peoples to be a member of.'
Spot on.

[Gunny]

The logic from the left has been much stronger -
'We need to leave the EU so we can control immigration by rejecting the Free Movement of peoples...having left the EU we will continue to trade within the single market, which requires acceptance of Free Movement of peoples to be a member of.'
Spot on.

I almost fell out of my chair. Logic from the left? When did that happen? The left is completely illogical. Y'all ain't even smart enough to know how to defend yourselves.

[Noir]

I almost fell out of my chair. Logic from the left? When did that happen? The left is completely illogical. Y'all ain't even smart enough to know how to defend yourselves.

The sad part is it was a typo, was meant to read as 'logic of the right' but such is life.

[Gunny]

The sad part is it was a typo, was meant to read as 'logic of the right' but such is life.

I don't care about typo's. I'm not the spelling police. I look at the content of the statement. If you prefer the difference is the right is logical and the left is illogical based on the history of Mankind and our civilizations. The right creates them, the left implodes them.

[Drummond]

@Drummond (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=2287) The problem being whichever side lost would try and get the goal posts changed because the vote was always going to be close.

The 'Remain' side went to ridiculous extremes.

Who on the 'Brexit' side ever came up with an equivalent to 'you risk the demise of western political civilisation' .. ??

[Noir]

The 'Remain' side went to ridiculous extremes.

Who on the 'Brexit' side ever came up with an equivalent to 'you risk the demise of western political civilisation' .. ??

Those who were saying staying in the EU was tantamount to welcoming the EU with open arms as our Nazi overlords?

I see in recent days the Brexit campaign has continued to flop, with no real sense of purpose or direction. If the Torys don't elected a leader on the basis of a 'strong leave' mandate then I expect further flops.

[DLT]

Over a million whiners? That's what it sounds like. I can understand if they lost by a few hundred votes.... but they didn't. So now unhappy, they want to petition to unwind the whole thing, knowing the vote total won't reach 60%. Sure sounds like a few American liberals in charge over there!!

-----

An online petition calling for a second referendum on the U.K.’s membership of the European Union attracted the support of more than 1.4 million people by early Saturday afternoon in London.

The petition to Parliament says: “We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the Remain or Leave vote is less than 60 percent based a turnout less than 75 percent there should be another referendum.” In Thursday’s referendum, U.K. voters backed a so-called Brexit by 51.9 percent to 48.1 percent with a turnout of 72.2 percent.

Quite how such a change could be implemented retrospectively by the government or lawmakers is unclear, even if there were any appetite for a new vote after a divisive campaign.

Parliament set no thresholds for participation in the legislation that set up the referendum, and the U.K. government ruled out a second vote during the campaign. Following the British vote to leave, European officials have said that the deal worked out with Prime Minister David Cameron to keep Britain in the EU is no longer on the table.

“The referendum has taken place; a decision has been made,” opposition Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn told reporters after a speech in London on Saturday. “I think you’ve got to accept that decision and work out our relationship with Europe in the future.”

http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/1-million-petition-brexit/2016/06/25/id/735623/

It's too late now. They should have gotten their lazy arses out and voted instead of sitting back (or laying back) and letting someone else do all the work....lol.

UK has about 64+ million people. 1-2 million sore-loser whiners isn't going to accomplish anything other than entertainment re: the 'point and laugh' factor.

[DLT]

The main mistake pollsters made was doing most of their surveys in London. Which voted overwhelmingly to remain. The rest of England proper went for leave.

Which means.....as is usually the case.....the liberals (who tend to live mostly in the big cities) voted to remain but the more moderate or (gasp!) conservative UKers voted to get the hell out of the EU. And natch, now the liberals want a re-take.

Sorry, Charlie. No can or will do. Ya lost. Deal with it.

[Noir]

Which means.....as is usually the case.....the liberals (who tend to live mostly in the big cities) voted to remain but the more moderate or (gasp!) conservative UKers voted to get the hell out of the EU. And natch, now the liberals want a re-take.

Sorry, Charlie. No can or will do. Ya lost. Deal with it.

TBH it seems to be the leave camp that can't deal with the fact they won. No leadership or direction atm.

[Drummond]

Those who were saying staying in the EU was tantamount to welcoming the EU with open arms as our Nazi overlords?

I see in recent days the Brexit campaign has continued to flop, with no real sense of purpose or direction. If the Torys don't elected a leader on the basis of a 'strong leave' mandate then I expect further flops.

Though you overstate the case - a little - you nonetheless make, without meaning to, a valid point.

What's the ultimate point of having a lawmaking capacity within the EU, one which applies its laws to Member States, with a mandate implicit that they BECOME law, even in defiance of their autonomy ?

And tell me, what's the point of a single currency, if not to concentrate and centralise power ?

[Noir]

and now Farage had resigned from his position as UKIP leader, are there any more wheels left to fall off the Brexit bus?

[Drummond]

and now Farage had resigned from his position as UKIP leader, are there any more wheels left to fall off the Brexit bus?

I was a bit surprised at that. But ... so what ? Farage never made any secret of what he principally wanted UKIP to achieve. Having achieved their political goal, what reason does he have for continuing on as leader ?

Why do you interpret that as 'wheels falling off the Brexit bus' ? Are you trying to claim that Brexit is somehow a failure, that it's 'suffering' .. ? Noir, the Brexit camp have achieved their aim. They are victorious. Do try to face that fact, Noir, and don't be such a bad loser !!

[Noir]

I was a bit surprised at that. But ... so what ? Farage never made any secret of what he principally wanted UKIP to achieve. Having achieved their political goal, what reason does he have for continuing on as leader ?

Why do you interpret that as 'wheels falling off the Brexit bus' ? Are you trying to claim that Brexit is somehow a failure, that it's 'suffering' .. ? Noir, the Brexit camp have achieved their aim. They are victorious. Do try to face that fact, Noir, and don't be such a bad loser !!

We haven't even started the process of leaving Europe, and there's a niggle in my mind that the process will never start, in such a case would you consider that a 'Brexit success'?

We are still in the middle of this campign to leave, and after the huge boost the Brexit camp got from the referendum, there has been no great push for action or sense of direction.

[Drummond]

We haven't even started the process of leaving Europe, and there's a niggle in my mind that the process will never start, in such a case would you consider that a 'Brexit success'?

We are still in the middle of this campign to leave, and after the huge boost the Brexit camp got from the referendum, there has been no great push for action or sense of direction.

.. Eh ? The campaign 'to leave' is done & dusted, Noir. A done deal. It resulted in a democratically arrived-at outcome of Brexit !!

So, there seems to be some stalling from the British side ... something I don't much approve of. But, stalling is stalling ... it doesn't mean that nothing will EVER happen !! A process must be kick-started, and it's only a matter of time before it is.

You may wish otherwise, of course. To which I say ... respect democratic process !

[Noir]

.. Eh ? The campaign 'to leave' is done & dusted, Noir. A done deal. It resulted in a democratically arrived-at outcome of Brexit !!

So, there seems to be some stalling from the British side ... something I don't much approve of. But, stalling is stalling ... it doesn't mean that nothing will EVER happen !! A process must be kick-started, and it's only a matter of time before it is.

You may wish otherwise, of course. To which I say ... respect democratic process !

It is in no way done and dusted, if you believe it is then you could well be in for a shock.

[Drummond]

It is in no way done and dusted, if you believe it is then you could well be in for a shock.

Then you're claiming that a properly arrived-at democratic vote will be ignored. Disregarded and insulted.

At whose hands, Noir ... and what is it that gives you confidence that anyone would succeed in such a wrecking, anti-democracy action ?

By the way - this might interest you ...

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/684593/Brexit-Nicola-Sturgeon-keep-Scotland-in-EU-France-Spain?_ga=1.217518930.577893471.1462056284


NICOLA STURGEON’s bid to keep Scotland in the EU ended in humiliation after European leaders told the Scottish First Minister they will not cut her a special deal.

The SNP leader had travelled to Brussels on Wednesday in the hope of holding talks with Brussels chiefs over retaining Scotland’s EU membership, in defiance of last week’s Brexit vote.

But both France and Spain shot down her plans to negotiate a way for Scotland to remain part of the bloc.

Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy said Ms Sturgeon’s Scottish Government is not authorised to barter with other EU member states.

Following a summit of 27 EU leaders in Brussels, he told a news conference: "I want to be very clear Scotland does not have the competence to negotiate with the European Union.

“Spain opposes any negotiation by anyone other than the government of United Kingdom.”

He added: "I am extremely against it, the treaties are extremely against it and I believe everyone is extremely against it. If the United Kingdom leaves... Scotland leaves.”

French president Francois Hollande backed up his Spanish counterpart, insisting exit talks will only be held with the UK Government and not the Holyrood administration.

He said: "The negotiations will be conducted with the UK, not with a part of the UK.”

Despite meeting European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker, European Parliament president Martin Schulz and leading MEPs, the First Minister was pointedly snubbed by European Council president Donald Tusk.

Mr Juncker told a news conference: “Scotland has won the right to be heard in Brussels, so I will listen carefully to what the First Minister will tell me."

But with Spain and France signalling they will block separate talks with Scotland, Ms Sturgeon is likely to have to win an independence referendum to retain her hopes of the country staying an EU member.

[Noir]

Then you're claiming that a properly arrived-at democratic vote will be ignored. Disregarded and insulted.

At whose hands, Noir ... and what is it that gives you confidence that anyone would succeed in such a wrecking, anti-democracy action ?

The fact that a) nothing is happening and b) there is no clear direction for what *should* be happening gives me the thought that nothing may happen.

Its also worth noting the UK is a 'Representative Democracy' not a 'Direct Democracy'as far as 'ignoring the vote' goes.


By the way - this might interest you ...

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/684593/Brexit-Nicola-Sturgeon-keep-Scotland-in-EU-France-Spain?_ga=1.217518930.577893471.1462056284

This was inevitable, Spain and France don't want to give seeds of hope to the Basque region that they could do something similar.

[Drummond]

The fact that a) nothing is happening and b) there is no clear direction for what *should* be happening gives me the thought that nothing may happen.

Its also worth noting the UK is a 'Representative Democracy' not a 'Direct Democracy'as far as 'ignoring the vote' goes.



This was inevitable, Spain and France don't want to give seeds of hope to the Basque region that they could do something similar.

No, I disagree. It's not worth noting. A democratic vote, especially one held on such a scale, is a democratic vote. It shouldn't be outrageously sidelined through mere use of terminology !!

And is 'nothing' happening ? The Conservatives have said they want a new Leader to commence negotiations. An annoying delay to be sure, but we DO know what process is underway. And, Noir, it IS underway ...

[Noir]

No, I disagree. It's not worth noting. A democratic vote, especially one held on such a scale, is a democratic vote. It shouldn't be outrageously sidelined through mere use of terminology !!

Our political system is not a terminology.


And is 'nothing' happening ? The Conservatives have said they want a new Leader to commence negotiations. An annoying delay to be sure, but we DO know what process is underway. And, Noir, it IS underway ...

Maybe, but only a fool would say anything is certain at this point, there's a lot that can still go wrong from a Brexiters perspective.

[fj1200]

And tell me, what's the point of a single currency, if not to concentrate and centralise power ?

Economic efficiency.

[Drummond]

Our political system is not a terminology.



Maybe, but only a fool would say anything is certain at this point, there's a lot that can still go wrong from a Brexiters perspective.

Perhaps I'm fool enough to think that a democratically arrived-at vote should actually count for something, and worse, have a real capacity for change !!

I'm sure we all understood that the outcome of Brexit could throw up problems. But, then ... maybe we considered that ridding ourselves of the tyranny of the EU was worth it !!

Besides, I'm totally sure that, once hiccups are overcome, that the long-term future of the UK is decidedly rosy. The EU - as Greece proved, not too long ago - is a fragile edifice. Even very weak economies can threaten its stability ... and being free of the EU, we'll survive the EU's future problems far better than otherwise.

[Noir]

Theresa May to become next British prime minister, good news for Brexiters, but bad news for humans who value things like their privacy.

[sundaydriver]

Yup, totally focused on winning and no plan what so ever on what to do afterward, todays politics.