Civilian vs Military

[Gunny]

This topic has come up more than once recently, so I thought I would dispel a few misconceptions. Thinking differently does NOT mean we think we are smarter. At what we do? You betcha. I also bet there isn't a one of you that can't do something we would be deer in the headlights about.
Kathianne, I use her as an example only because she's the only one on this board that I know what she does. Can you see ME as a school teacher?

"You will stand on the left hand side of your desk. Heels together feet at a 45 degree angle, knees slightly bent. Stomach in chest out. Head and eyes straight forward. Do not eyeball me or I will skull F*ck you to death. When I give you the command to sit you will do so as rapidly and quietly as possible. You will NOT speak in my classroom unless spoken to. If I ask a question you will raise your hand and wait to be addressed. If I catch you on a cell in my class, it goes in my desk and your parents can come get it. Does everyone understand or do I need to draw you a picture on the chalkboard? "

I'm just betting THAT would go over REAL big in today's schools. The fact that my daughter is a school teacher blows my mind. She's harder than I am. :laugh:

Point is, My father was raised by an Army SgtMaj. I was raised by an Air Force CMSgt. I went from that to 21 years in the Corps. what the Hell does anyone expect me to sound like? That doesn't make me better. It's just a different mindset. I don't understand y'all civilians, and as I've said many times over the years, I make a lousy civilian. We play for blood and for keeps. And to us, y'all live in your own little worlds. I never had that luxury.

[darin]

you forgot the part about "within the core of a warrior is the heart of a servant".

The real reason Soldiers are different than those who have never served?

Every Soldier, Airman, Sailor and Marine can identify with this story - if not specifically, they can read it and think "that's some plausible shit right there"



It’s about 11:00 p.m. but it is a hot night. I gulp down the whole bottle of Gatorade fast. When the convoy is almost ready to roll out, I have to piss. So I decided to go around to the other side of a dump truck. It’s dark and I’m wearing body armor with a large bulletproof groin protector hanging off the front. I’m also holding my helmet in my hand so all I can do is unbutton my fly by feel. I pee and something sounds strange. In the dark I’m pissing directly into my helmet which I can’t see. Now it’s full of my own urine. I dump it out on the ground and try not to get it on my boots. At that moment I hear my Chaplain Assistant yell for me to get back into the Humvee because the convoy is rolling out. I curse and take my canteen and dump the water from the canteen into the helmet. I swish it around, dump it out, and put it on my head. I fasten the chinstrap so no one confuses me with John Wayne. It smells like Gatorade and berry-scented piss. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-w-peters/heres-why-veterans-dont-t_b_6129896.html)

[Gunny]

you forgot the part about "within the core of a warrior is the heart of a servant".

The real reason Soldiers are different than those who have never served?

Every Soldier, Airman, Sailor and Marine can identify with this story - if not specifically, they can read it and think "that's some plausible shit right there"

I honestly can say I never pissed in my own helmet. :laugh: Back when we had steel pots I've shaved and cooked in them. But I never pissed in my own helmet. :laugh:

I DO get your point about about service though.

[darin]

I honestly can say I never pissed in my own helmet. :laugh: Back when we had steel pots I've shaved and cooked in them. But I never pissed in my own helmet. :laugh:




But...BUT - and here is the tie that binds us...I bet you know somebody who'd do that shit. :)

[Gunny]

But...BUT - and here is the tie that binds us...I bet you know somebody who'd do that shit. :)

More than one or two. :laugh:

[darin]

I work around Soldiers and Veterans. And non-veterans.

There's something different about the Soldiers and Vets. Not always - because people are still people and unpredictable - but frequently the Vets and Soldiers have an easier time understanding one-another. While most of those around me were not in the Army when I was - there's a certain "Okay - you held down this position until I did" mentality in the Soldiers. We tend to identify and solve vital differences quicker. We cuss a lot more. I am beyond blessed and fortunate to live this life, in this career around some of the best of the best.

[Gunny]

I work around Soldiers and Veterans. And non-veterans.

There's something different about the Soldiers and Vets. Not always - because people are still people and unpredictable - but frequently the Vets and Soldiers have an easier time understanding one-another. While most of those around me were not in the Army when I was - there's a certain "Okay - you held down this position until I did" mentality in the Soldiers. We tend to identify and solve vital differences quicker. We cuss a lot more. I am beyond blessed and fortunate to live this life, in this career around some of the best of the best.

Completely agree. There ARE quite a few vets here. We speak a different language. When we start chattering we all have a warped, sarcastic -bordering on evil - sense of humor. I catch myself explaining acronyms all the time. I don't however think a one of us is out to offend. When we DO want to offend,there's no guesswork involved.

I can say it's the same with me and Southern rednecks on this board which has nothing to do with military. We speak our own language. It's not to cut anyone out nor offend them. It's who we are.

[Kathianne]

Completely agree. There ARE quite a few vets here. We speak a different language. When we start chattering we all have a warped, sarcastic -bordering on evil - sense of humor. I catch myself explaining acronyms all the time. I don't however think a one of us is out to offend. When we DO want to offend,there's no guesswork involved.

I can say it's the same with me and Southern rednecks on this board which has nothing to do with military. We speak our own language. It's not to cut anyone out nor offend them. It's who we are.

I get that. It seems to me that the best thing of messageboards in the main is the different perspectives that each individual brings to the discussion. We are all products of our pasts: our families, our socioeconomic groups, our faith or lack thereof, our education, our professions, our core beliefs and our own personal angels and demons-those with us, those we left behind.

Some conversations by the very nature of topic are going to leave others out, that's fine. If a subject is on schools and what can be done to fix or how to address a particular problem, likely only educators and parents really give a fig for the most part. Same with military discussions, as Gunny said, the lingo alone precludes many from commenting, which is fine. It's a discussion for those with common interests and pasts.

To my way of thinking though, when the topic is not an 'exclusive interest one' such as politics or anything else of interest to us humans, one shouldn't dismiss others for their lack of experience in other areas, such as being a vet or having more formal education-neither of these are by their nature alone 'trump cards.' In fact they really have nothing to do with the conversation-though may well play a part in how one addresses their responses. They are part of the person, not part of the discussion.

I've used Gunny's and my own areas of expertise for the point of clarity. We all have our areas: Jim's with computers; Abbey's with law; Crin's with barbeque. ;)

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Completely agree. There ARE quite a few vets here. We speak a different language. When we start chattering we all have a warped, sarcastic -bordering on evil - sense of humor. I catch myself explaining acronyms all the time. I don't however think a one of us is out to offend. When we DO want to offend,there's no guesswork involved.

I can say it's the same with me and Southern rednecks on this board which has nothing to do with military. We speak our own language. It's not to cut anyone out nor offend them. It's who we are.

I was just about to bring up that distinction in regards to we Southern men.
There is a marked difference in how we react to others , how we speak(not just southern slang but instead steel core solid principles involved),why we are so prone to fight at the drop of a hat.
It not just that we are blood thirsty, violent and easily angered--which a great many of us(this excludes the younger generation now--most are punks-thanks lib education) are, rather we are more straightforward, speak our minds boldly and often do not give a flying piss who the hell does not like it..
My father was born 1901-- he gave we boys his moral and principled foundation (old school).
Trust me on this--that foundation is based upon honor and being a real man--not the crap so many movies,our current culture and schools influences/teach these days.
For instance--I'll fight any SOB THAT GIVES ME JUST CAUSE AND DO SO WITH UTTER DISREGARD TO THEIR SIZE, REPUTATION, AND-OTHER FAME AS A BADASS.
AM I A BIT CRAZY??? MAYBE--BUT KNOW THIS, MY FRIENDS ARE MY FRIENDS AND I DEFEND THEM SAME AS I DO ANY OF MY FAMILY.

Do people misjudge me?? Hell yes, they do...
I am kinder in person to those deserving and far more brutal to those not deserving than any of you know..A fact..
And I have the scars to prove it....
As my older brothers say- "Damn, Robert you'd fight a grizzly bear with a damn goose feather when you get mad. And thats crazy.
I reply--"Then just dont ever make me mad. My Injun blood in me is stronger than you guys."
And its my cross to bear..
Several of my buddies from my wild young days said, hell I rather have you as my back up in a fight with several unarmed attackers
than a damn loaded 45..
I didnt agree but I got the sentiment conveyed..
By the way--most people have some bit of crazy in them--its just that very few admit or show it IMHO..
I swore an oath to be truthful and to me its like breathing now... be it good or bad about me I say it like it is or else like it ""once was"(exception is, I am kinder and far more gentle now in my old age)- ;)...Tyr

[Kathianne]

Again, Tyr made my point. My experiences from up North really don't mesh well when you guys go 'all Southern' on me. ;) However, there are times that I can agree with statements of manners and how to treat others. Then there are the times when you all go 'all redneck' that I don't have experiences with. Doesn't mean that there aren't lots of things in common, but that isn't one of them.

Doesn't make any of us more right or more wrong, just different. Those differences play a big part in who we are, how we address certain issues, but again doesn't make one an expert in areas outside of those particular discussions.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I get that. It seems to me that the best thing of messageboards in the main is the different perspectives that each individual brings to the discussion. We are all products of our pasts: our families, our socioeconomic groups, our faith or lack thereof, our education, our professions, our core beliefs and our own personal angels and demons-those with us, those we left behind.

Some conversations by the very nature of topic are going to leave others out, that's fine. If a subject is on schools and what can be done to fix or how to address a particular problem, likely only educators and parents really give a fig for the most part. Same with military discussions, as Gunny said, the lingo alone precludes many from commenting, with is fine. It's a discussion for those with common interests and pasts.

To my way of thinking though, when the topic is not an 'exclusive interest one' such as politics or anything else of interest to us humans, one shouldn't dismiss others for their lack of experience in other areas, such as being a vet or having more formal education-neither of these are by their nature alone 'trump cards.' In fact they really have nothing to do with the conversation-though may well play a part in how one addresses their responses. They are part of the person, not part of the discussion.

I've used Gunny's and my own areas of expertise for the point of clarity. We all have our areas: Jim's with computers; Abbey's with law; Crin's with barbeque. ;)

TIS WHY I LOVE THIS SITE, THE MEMBERS HERE ARE TOPS, STRONG, INTELLIGENT, FUNNY AND OFTEN WILD..
I've said it before, I'd bet on the ladies here against any group from any other board in intelligence tests and
dedication to solid principles and holding their own against any group of men in most non-gender related discussions.-Tyr

[Gunny]

I get that. It seems to me that the best thing of messageboards in the main is the different perspectives that each individual brings to the discussion. We are all products of our pasts: our families, our socioeconomic groups, our faith or lack thereof, our education, our professions, our core beliefs and our own personal angels and demons-those with us, those we left behind.

Some conversations by the very nature of topic are going to leave others out, that's fine. If a subject is on schools and what can be done to fix or how to address a particular problem, likely only educators and parents really give a fig for the most part. Same with military discussions, as Gunny said, the lingo alone precludes many from commenting, with is fine. It's a discussion for those with common interests and pasts.

To my way of thinking though, when the topic is not an 'exclusive interest one' such as politics or anything else of interest to us humans, one shouldn't dismiss others for their lack of experience in other areas, such as being a vet or having more formal education-neither of these are by their nature alone 'trump cards.' In fact they really have nothing to do with the conversation-though may well play a part in how one addresses their responses. They are part of the person, not part of the discussion.

I've used Gunny's and my own areas of expertise for the point of clarity. We all have our areas: Jim's with computers; Abbey's with law; Crin's with barbeque. ;)

Thing is, I don't get how sensitive you all are to criticism. I've been call everything in the book, my mother insulted, drug through the mud, shot at, and some of y'all can't even take words. You take being disagreed with as a personal insult. Those of us -- especially those of us that are retirees -- are desensitized to that crap. They start calling you crap before you even get off the bus at the recruit depot. And every decision you make from Day One until your retirement ceremony is critiqued. And you stand there and listen to it.

Some of y'all can't even stand being disagreed with about who is voting for who. There are people I've known from different boards that were posting here until y'all decided to make me a mod and we haven't heard a word from them since. Let's just say I know why. :laugh:

We don't necessarily dismiss you. Whole point to this thread. And if I can point to one thing it's y'all are all I/Me. Teamwork's not a concept with y'all. Look at this Bergdahl idiot. I'd have shot him myself. He let down the team. But with civilians, it's all about you. We take care of each other. Y'all will stand and watch.

[darin]

I've used Gunny's and my own areas of expertise for the point of clarity. We all have our areas: Jim's with computers; Abbey's with law; Crin's with barbeque; dmp's with Sexiness ;)

Fixed that for you, Love.

[Gunny]

Fixed that for you, Love.

You goof. LMAO. :laugh2:

[gabosaurus]

Thing is, I don't get how sensitive you all are to criticism. I've been call everything in the book, my mother insulted, drug through the mud, shot at, and some of y'all can't even take words. You take being disagreed with as a personal insult. Those of us -- especially those of us that are retirees -- are desensitized to that crap. They start calling you crap before you even get off the bus at the recruit depot. And every decision you make from Day One until your retirement ceremony is critiqued. And you stand there and listen to it.


This is also your biggest problem. You are unable to comprehend anything that is outside the military lifestyle. I see this in many military lifers. You are regimented from the day you are born.
Those of us who are civilians see things from the opposite perspective. We will never understand a precise, regimented way of life. We are used to waking up in the morning and deciding what we want to do.

I believe every job is equally important. The person who plucks chicken or works on the roads has just as much right to be proud of what he does as the person who decides to enlist.
The key word here is "decides." In this country, you can decide what you want to do. No one has the right to force you to do anything.

[Elessar]

you forgot the part about "within the core of a warrior is the heart of a servant".

The real reason Soldiers are different than those who have never served?

Every Soldier, Airman, Sailor and Marine can identify with this story - if not specifically, they can read it and think "that's some plausible shit right there"

That is a very good saying and I had never seen it until now.

Every Marine or Soldier who spent more than one hitch always told me they would rather be protecting
lives and property than destroying it.

Coasties have a unique place in the 5 Branches. We have to interact with civilians almost daily unless out at sea.
Especially those who were in Search and Rescue and Law Enforcement such as I was, and the folks who work in
the Marine Safety field - and their responsibilities to the public are huge!

The Air Force is responsible for Inland Search and Rescue and coordinates with each State government to provide that,
as well as providing very efficient Para-Rescue teams hundreds of miles offshore. I worked with many, and they are amazing.
The USAF also provides disaster relief overseas, delivering supplies and rescue/emergency medical teams.

The Navy excels at providing disaster relief by ferrying supplies to hard-hit areas as well as platforms
for medical assistance. You vets know how much a single aircraft carrier can do!

[Elessar]

This is also your biggest problem. You are unable to comprehend anything that is outside the military lifestyle. I see this in many military lifers. You are regimented from the day you are born.
Those of us who are civilians see things from the opposite perspective. We will never understand a precise, regimented way of life. We are used to waking up in the morning and deciding what we want to do.

I believe every job is equally important. The person who plucks chicken or works on the roads has just as much right to be proud of what he does as the person who decides to enlist.
The key word here is "decides." In this country, you can decide what you want to do. No one has the right to force you to do anything.

And with what I have done since I was 14 - being a lifeguard and then a Coastie, I certainly had to
work both sides of the fence. I worked with your kind of perspective damn near daily.

But as a SAR Controller in the CG, I often had to put on my 'Game Face' to get a mission accomplished.
Nobody calling into a Command Center by phone or radio controlled the conversation on MY Watch!
I controlled it and told my bosses that I am not PC, but can be diplomatic as hell when needed.

[Gunny]

This is also your biggest problem. You are unable to comprehend anything that is outside the military lifestyle. I see this in many military lifers. You are regimented from the day you are born.
Those of us who are civilians see things from the opposite perspective. We will never understand a precise, regimented way of life. We are used to waking up in the morning and deciding what we want to do.

I believe every job is equally important. The person who plucks chicken or works on the roads has just as much right to be proud of what he does as the person who decides to enlist.
The key word here is "decides." In this country, you can decide what you want to do. No one has the right to force you to do anything.

It is NOT my biggest problem. My biggest problem is people who can't read or you'd already know by now I'm the first person to say I don't understand you. To clarify, I can pick you apart by using YOUR own behavior against you. That doesn't explain your behavior.

You are discussing emotion when you say "pride". I have a mission to accomplish. Emotion gets in the way. That all gets shut down and I do what I have to do. I mentioned your pride in my "I/me" comment above. It ain't always about you. If there is no "us", there is no "you".

[aboutime]

For gabby...primarily. The real differences between those of us WHO WORE A UNIFORM, and civilians is, and always will be. WE know from many years of, and first hand experience in dealing with the UNEDUCATED...how those who brag about always being civilians, and claiming to be FIRST CLASS citizens...are simply FULL OF SHIT.

[Kathianne]

You goof. LMAO. :laugh2:

Don't you mess with my farm boy! ;)

[Kathianne]

Thing is, I don't get how sensitive you all are to criticism. I've been call everything in the book, my mother insulted, drug through the mud, shot at, and some of y'all can't even take words. You take being disagreed with as a personal insult. Those of us -- especially those of us that are retirees -- are desensitized to that crap. They start calling you crap before you even get off the bus at the recruit depot. And every decision you make from Day One until your retirement ceremony is critiqued. And you stand there and listen to it.

Some of y'all can't even stand being disagreed with about who is voting for who. There are people I've known from different boards that were posting here until y'all decided to make me a mod and we haven't heard a word from them since. Let's just say I know why. :laugh:

We don't necessarily dismiss you. Whole point to this thread. And if I can point to one thing it's y'all are all I/Me. Teamwork's not a concept with y'all. Look at this Bergdahl idiot. I'd have shot him myself. He let down the team. But with civilians, it's all about you. We take care of each other. Y'all will stand and watch.


I'm pretty good at getting in someone's face too, when I feel it necessary. I know, I hide it well. ;) I haven't taken offense on whomever wants to vote for whichever. That is on them, as mine is on me. I disagree with the whole argument of 'voting for someone else besides the two is a waste.' At the end of the day all votes are counted and most will not have voted for the winner. It's the way it is.

Those that plan on blaming folks that don't vote or vote outside the two parties, if Trump loses? Well some of us wonder why we ended up in that position. Nothing to be done about it now.

I'd like to repeat something that seemed very important a few months ago: 'Under no circumstances should the GOP try to dump Trump. While I seriously wonder why so many voted for him, he won. Case should be closed.

[Gunny]

I'm pretty good at getting in someone's face too, when I feel it necessary. I know, I hide it well. ;) I haven't taken offense on whomever wants to vote for whichever. That is on them, as mine is on me. I disagree with the whole argument of 'voting for someone else besides the two is a waste.' At the end of the day all votes are counted and most will not have voted for the winner. It's the way it is.

Those that plan on blaming folks that don't vote or vote outside the two parties, if Trump loses? Well some of us wonder why we ended up in that position. Nothing to be done about it now.

I'd like to repeat something that seemed very important a few months ago: 'Under no circumstances should the GOP try to dump Trump. While I seriously wonder why so many voted for him, he won. Case should be closed.

Don't confuse one idea with another. I've been more outspoken about Trump than you have. But voting 3rd party is a waste. Either way, WE, as a team lose. Nobody cares and this time next year, no one will remember. I can understand making a point. I also understand pointless. You think you're standing on some personal principle while not looking at the end game. If the Dems get the Presidency AND the Supreme Court, we are screwed. Some of y'all need to weigh your personal principle against the principles of the Constitution.

We don't live in the wild west. You're part of the team to win or you're not.

[Kathianne]

Don't confuse one idea with another. I've been more outspoken about Trump than you have. But voting 3rd party is a waste. Either way, WE, as a team lose. Nobody cares and this time next year, no one will remember. I can understand making a point. I also understand pointless. You think you're standing on some personal principle while not looking at the end game. If the Dems get the Presidency AND the Supreme Court, we are screwed. Some of y'all need to weigh your personal principle against the principles of the Constitution.

We don't live in the wild west. You're part of the team to win or you're not.

The only thing I'm doing with my vote is let both parties know that their presidential candidate is unacceptable TO ME. If others feel the same in substantial numbers, well that's the Party's fault.

I am not on Team Trump. Heck I left the GOP over this. Now I join you, registered Independent. I won't vote party, really never have. It's been a fall back when I know little about the candidates which really only happens with judges and some local offices, like 'Township' in IL.

AZ I'm not fully up to speed. Yeah, I know McCain and Flake, McCain is up and I'm not likely to vote for him. Local, even state offices, will take time. It's like soap operas, once you know the characters, it's easy to keep up.

[Gunny]

The only thing I'm doing with my vote is let both parties know that their presidential candidate is unacceptable TO ME. If others feel the same in substantial numbers, well that's the Party's fault.

I am not on Team Trump. Heck I left the GOP over this. Now I join you, registered Independent. I won't vote party, really never have. It's been a fall back when I know little about the candidates which really only happens with judges and some local offices, like 'Township' in IL.

AZ I'm not fully up to speed. Yeah, I know McCain and Flake, McCain is up and I'm not likely to vote for him. Local, even state offices, will take time. It's like soap operas, once you know the characters, it's easy to keep up.

Is there a name for this private little world you're living in? You're not telling anyone anything. There's a time to be an individual and a time to come together as a teem. Don't know if you pay attention to it, but game 7 of the NBA finals was lost by the Warriors, not won by the Cavaliers. The Warriors are a team and they set a record number of season wins playing as a team. They lost the title because they quit playing as a team.

Same principle applies. It takes a team to win in a team game. People who aren't part of the team are a waste. And I mean no personal offense. It goes back to the OP. You think I'd be here without my company backing me up? I'd have lasted about a half a second running out on my own doing my own thing. And I'd be just another name on a list somewhere no one cares about.

[Kathianne]

Is there a name for this private little world you're living in? You're not telling anyone anything. There's a time to be an individual and a time to come together as a teem. Don't know if you pay attention to it, but game 7 of the NBA finals was lost by the Warriors, not won by the Cavaliers. The Warriors are a team and they set a record number of season wins playing as a team. They lost the title because they quit playing as a team.

Same principle applies. It takes a team to win in a team game. People who aren't part of the team are a waste. And I mean no personal offense. It goes back to the OP. You think I'd be here without my company backing me up? I'd have lasted about a half a second running out on my own doing my own thing. And I'd be just another name on a list somewhere no one cares about.

You are failing to understand there are many teams. I just choose not to be part of the one you've chosen. "I hate Trump, but will vote for him." Sorry, no.

I would have had problems voting for Cruz, but would have done so. Seems lots of people felt that way with McCain and Romney, it would stink. This was just a bridge too far for me.

[Gunny]

You are failing to understand there are many teams. I just choose not to be part of the one you've chosen. "I hate Trump, but will vote for him." Sorry, no.

I would have had problems voting for Cruz, but would have done so. Seems lots of people felt that way with McCain and Romney, it would stink. This was just a bridge too far for me.

No. There are many PLAYERS. Not teams. I understand teamwork to the "T". You're not on anyone's team but your own. Quickest way to lose.

[Kathianne]

No. There are many PLAYERS. Not teams. I understand teamwork to the "T". You're not on anyone's team but your own. Quickest way to lose.
I'd say the same to you regarding not playing for the Team that matters, the USA. Neither of the two candidates should be in office. One will be.

[Gunny]

I'd say the same to you regarding not playing for the Team that matters, the USA. Neither of the two candidates should be in office. One will be.

Good point. So you put the lesser of 2 evils in office then fix the problem. Everyone bitches about the players but they don't cull the herd at the appropriate time. You don't make up your plan on the bird taking from the ship to the LZ. You make up your plan before you leave the boat. Everyone talks all this crap but no one ever does anything but cry when it's too late. You fall back, assess the situation, regroup and move forward. As a team.

[Kathianne]

Good point. So you put the lesser of 2 evils in office then fix the problem. Everyone bitches about the players but they don't cull the herd at the appropriate time. You don't make up your plan on the bird taking from the ship to the LZ. You make up your plan before you leave the boat. Everyone talks all this crap but no one ever does anything but cry when it's too late. You fall back, assess the situation, regroup and move forward. As a team.

Two evils are two evils. It really is that simple. Obama belonged in that group, I would not have voted for him in any case, for any reason. Jimmy Carter? Thought he'd be bad, he was, but I always thought he was trying to do good. Pretty hard to use the word 'evil' with someone trying to do good.

Johnson wasn't a nice man, in many ways like FDR he cause immeasurable harm to the country, imo. At the same time while I would like to say I wouldn't vote for him, (umm for more reasons than I was a kid), IF he was running against a Trump, Hillary, or Obama I seriously don't know and that's with knowing some bit of historical background!

[Gunny]

Two evils are two evils. It really is that simple. Obama belonged in that group, I would not have voted for him in any case, for any reason. Jimmy Carter? Thought he'd be bad, he was, but I always thought he was trying to do good. Pretty hard to use the word 'evil' with someone trying to do good.

Johnson wasn't a nice man, in many ways like FDR he cause immeasurable harm to the country, imo. At the same time while I would like to say I wouldn't vote for him, (umm for more reasons than I was a kid), IF he was running against a Trump, Hillary, or Obama I seriously don't know and that's with knowing some bit of historical background!

The greater point to this thread is there is idealism and there is reality. I've always had to deal with the reality of the situation. It's a different mindset. I don't like any of the above. But if I have pick one, I'm going with he who does less damage. Do you really believe those of us in the military were "aye aye. sir" and anchors aweigh? I worked for zero's I'd have just as soon hit with a 45 lb plate. In the end, you make the plan work. If I'd got my hands on my LT during the Gulf War he'd have looked like a rag doll.

You don't need to talk country to ME. But you have to know how to win the game. THAT is how we get our country back.

[Kathianne]

The greater point to this thread is there is idealism and there is reality. I've always had to deal with the reality of the situation. It's a different mindset. I don't like any of the above. But if I have pick one, I'm going with he who does less damage. Do you really believe those of us in the military were "aye aye. sir" and anchors aweigh? I worked for zero's I'd have just as soon hit with a 45 lb plate. In the end, you make the plan work. If I'd got my hands on my LT during the Gulf War he'd have looked like a rag doll.

You don't need to talk country to ME. But you have to know how to win the game. THAT is how we get our country back.

I can talk country to you, when speaking of who should be or not be president as far as decisions go. Your way is how the country goes downhill, as it has under Obama. It could well be argued that we are becoming more sharia influenced under his lead. Note what's gone on in just the past 24 hours or so regarding killer's transcripts. That is Obama's leadership, a man with poor character.

Hillary? More corruption than even imagined under Bill. In fact his 'largest scandals outside of Monica' always included or perhaps were led by her.

Trump? He's shown little tendencies to following rules, many towards authoritarianism. He's not found of the Constitution or its pesky amendments. Not real keen on the First or perhaps the second. He loves 'huge' like the fed, not so keen on the smaller. Not likely he's a fan of federalism. Checks and balances? Make him laugh, go ahead.

So no, I won't follow you there.

[Gunny]

I can talk country to you, when speaking of who should be or not be president as far as decisions go. Your way is how the country goes downhill, as it has under Obama. It could well be argued that we are becoming more sharia influenced under his lead. Note what's gone on in just the past 24 hours or so regarding killer's transcripts. That is Obama's leadership, a man with poor character.

Hillary? More corruption than even imagined under Bill. In fact his 'largest scandals outside of Monica' always included or perhaps were led by her.

Trump? He's shown little tendencies to following rules, many towards authoritarianism. He's not found of the Constitution or its pesky amendments. Not real keen on the First or perhaps the second. He loves 'huge' like the fed, not so keen on the smaller. Not likely he's a fan of federalism. Checks and balances? Make him laugh, go ahead.

So no, I won't follow you there.

Incorrect, ma'am. My way is dealing with the reality of the situation. Was up to me? I'd have kicked Trump off the card from the get-go.

HERE is how we go downhill. Hillary gets elected and gets to choose 1 or 2 Supreme Court Justices. She's 4 Years. THEY are for life. I'm looking at the end game which is more important than my personal little short term issues.

You aren't serving this country by contributing to its downfall.

[Kathianne]

Incorrect, ma'am. My way is dealing with the reality of the situation. Was up to me? I'd have kicked Trump off the card from the get-go.

HERE is how we go downhill. Hillary gets elected and gets to choose 1 or 2 Supreme Court Justices. She's 4 Years. THEY are for life. I'm looking at the end game which is more important than my personal little short term issues.

Logically, as things stand this minute, voting for Trump is still voting for Hillary by the logic of likely outcomes.

We're all going to do what we're going to do. If it makes you feel better you may chalk it up to logic. I think group think has much more to do with it. That's not teamwork, that's following.

[Gunny]

Logically, as things stand this minute, voting for Trump is still voting for Hillary by the logic of likely outcomes.

We're all going to do what we're going to do. If it makes you feel better you may chalk it up to logic. I think group think has much more to do with it. That's not teamwork, that's following.

I'll tell you straight up ... I follow no one. I'm an 0317. I carry out a mission. But you want to talk country? You know how many Christmas's I've missed? How many birthdays? Bobbing around on a tin can in halfway around the world? My youngest daughter learned to walk and talk while I was gone.

And I don't feel lonely in the boat. Every vet here has been through the same sh*t. Our country was more important. And to watch it become what it has makes us sick. There are people that are just against it, and then there are people like you. On your own program thinking you're making a point. You ain't.

[Kathianne]

I'll tell you straight up ... I follow no one. I'm an 0317. I carry out a mission. But you want to talk country? You know how many Christmas's I've missed? How many birthdays? Bobbing around on a tin can in halfway around the world? My youngest daughter learned to walk and talk while I was gone.

And I don't feel lonely in the boat. Every vet here has been through the same sh*t. Our country was more important. And to watch it become what it has makes us sick. There are people that are just against it, and then there are people like you. On your own program thinking you're making a point. You ain't.

You're not seeing that you are doing exactly what you are saying about myself.

In fact, we're all individuals and all part of something bigger. You know I respect your service, that I empathize with what you've sacrifice and the costs. You do not have to convince me, I never doubted.

With that said, it doesn't make you correct on all or the final voice on anything.

You've taken a reasonable debate and fall back on the sacrifices you've made. That doesn't win the argument or even further the cause.

[Gunny]

You're not seeing that you are doing exactly what you are saying about myself.

In fact, we're all individuals and all part of something bigger. You know I respect your service, that I empathize with what you've sacrifice and the costs. You do not have to convince me, I never doubted.

With that said, it doesn't make you correct on all or the final voice on anything.

You've taken a reasonable debate and fall back on the sacrifices you've made. That doesn't win the argument or even further the cause.

What it does is make me have an opinion based on my observation an experience and knowing how to read a grid square. Yes, we are individuals. Completely gree. But there is a time and place to be an individual and a time and place to be a team player.

I don't consider myself the final voice on anything unless we're on the line. We're on the line. It doesn't matter how we got here. Maybe somebody should have had a better plan? That doesn't change the fact that we're on the line NOW. Every decision you make can cost lives and you have about half a heartbeat to make them. I'm not counting on the PFC that's picking his nose.

[Kathianne]

What it does is make me have an opinion based on my observation an experience and knowing how to read a grid square. Yes, we are individuals. Completely gree. But there is a time and place to be an individual and a time and place to be a team player.

I don't consider myself the final voice on anything unless we're on the line. We're on the line. It doesn't matter how we got here. Maybe somebody should have had a better plan? That doesn't change the fact that we're on the line NOW. Every decision you make can cost lives and you have about half a heartbeat to make them. I'm not counting on the PFC that's picking his nose.

If it really comes down to saving lives, explain how Trump is a point in your favor, please. Please state his superior plans and something that leads you to believe his word. Oh and what does reading a grid square have to do with this?

[Gunny]

If it really comes down to saving lives, explain how Trump is a point in your favor, please. Please state his superior plans and something that leads you to believe his word. Oh and what does reading a grid square have to do with this?

Think about what you are saying. Saving this country is saving lives. I spent 21 years serving this country. Watching it go down the shitter is heartbreaking. And it's going down the shitter by people who can't see the forest for the trees.

I'm not defending Trump. But I'd prefer that idiot to Hillary. And voting for anyone else is a "you might as well just stay home" vote. I didn't create these choices. You continually don't mention that I've been against Trump since Day One.

How about you tell us what that left-libertarian lunatic from NM Johnson is going to do?

And being able to read a grid square? It means you have identified the enemy, his position, and you drop lead on his ass.

[Kathianne]

Think about what you are saying. Saving this country is saving lives. I spent 21 years serving this country. Watching it go down the shitter is heartbreaking. And it's going down the shitter by people who can't see the forest for the trees.

I'm not defending Trump. But I'd prefer that idiot to Hillary. And voting for anyone else is a "you might as well just stay home" vote. I didn't create these choices. You continually don't mention that I've been against Trump since Day One.

How about you tell us what that left-libertarian lunatic from NM Johnson is going to do?

And being able to read a grid square? It means you have identified the enemy, his position, and you drop lead on his ass.

I hate Hillary too. It's not the point, no one is going to drop lead on either, unless they are a nutso assassin. It did happen to Trump, though I've seen little in the media. Some whacko Brit who was here illegally. Go figure, must be something in the water.

If you don't think that either of these will continue the downward spiral, you're deluding yourself. While I agree with Johnson on some broad issues, no I'm not voting the 'win' vote, as I've said it's a real attempt to get both parties attention, in a way the whack-a-doodle won't. He's not for America, he's for idolization. He's good at that too! You're really comfortable voting someone who mainly speaks in the 3rd person?

[Gunny]

I hate Hillary too. It's not the point, no one is going to drop lead on either, unless they are a nutso assassin. It did happen to Trump, though I've seen little in the media. Some whacko Brit who was here illegally. Go figure, must be something in the water.

If you don't think that either of these will continue the downward spiral, you're deluding yourself. While I agree with Johnson on some broad issues, no I'm not voting the 'win' vote, as I've said it's a real attempt to get both parties attention, in a way the whack-a-doodle won't. He's not for America, he's for idolization. He's good at that too! You're really comfortable voting someone who mainly speaks in the 3rd person?

Okay. So we stop the spiral. Have a plan. Implement the plan. Going rogue doesn't do a damned thing towards that.

[Kathianne]

Okay. So we stop the spiral. Have a plan. Implement the plan. Going rogue doesn't do a damned thing towards that.

It wouldn't be rogue if everyone that don't want to vote for either did so. It's tough being green.

[gabosaurus]

You two need to get a room. :drillsarge::boobies: :coffee:

[Gunny]

It wouldn't be rogue if everyone that don't want to vote for either did so. It's tough being green.

Back to one of my original statements ... you have to stop the bleeding first. You can't fix anything until you do that.

[Kathianne]

Back to one of my original statements ... you have to stop the bleeding first. You can't fix anything until you do that.

I don't see your bandage as the way to accomplish that.

[Gunny]

You two need to get a room. :drillsarge::boobies: :coffee:

For what? We're both are almost 60. She's having surgery in a couple of hours. I need surgery on my right leg. What do you think we're going to do? Argue over the PPV? Or argue over who has to go get the ice for the Cokes?

You are so out of the loop sometimes.

[Gunny]

I don't see your bandage as the way to accomplish that.

But listen to the logic. You stop the bleeding. Start the breathing. Dress the wound. Treat for shock. You can't get past step 1 without step 1. We need to stop the bleeding. The left represents the bleeding. Stop them. THEN go for the next step.

You can't start at the the 4th step first. You bleed out.

[Kathianne]

But listen to the logic. You stop the bleeding. Start the breathing. Dress the wound. Treat for shock. You can't get past step 1 without step 1. We need to stop the bleeding. The left represents the bleeding. Stop them. THEN go for the next step.

You can't start at the the 4th step first. You bleed out.

I get what your trying to say, just really don't get how you apply this metaphor to the notion that one must support Trump or die.

[Gunny]

I get what your trying to say, just really don't get how you apply this metaphor to the notion that one must support Trump or die.

Because you are looking through a different set of glasses. I'm looking at defeating the real enemy. If I have a suck-ass officer, I got to get around him too.

You aren't listening when it comes to Trump. I can't stand him. He's a big-mouth bully. He'd never want to be around me. But I want the Supreme Court. THAT is the prize.

[Kathianne]

Because you are looking through a different set of glasses. I'm looking at defeating the real enemy. If I have a suck-ass officer, I got to get around him too.

You aren't listening when it comes to Trump. I can't stand him. He's a big-mouth bully. He'd never want to be around me. But I want the Supreme Court. THAT is the prize.


I agree that SCOTUS matters, no argument. If I thought for one moment that Trump would actually deliver, I'd pause more. I don't. I believe he's every bit as liberal as Hillary, without much thought for the repercussions.

I'm more and more certain that he's just a stooge in the first place. Today his campaign a 'matching' fundraiser, the first ever. He'll 'match' up to $2m raised in 48 hours. These numbers are peanuts, like the $100k email of the other day.

[Gunny]

I agree that SCOTUS matters, no argument. If I thought for one moment that Trump would actually deliver, I'd pause more. I don't. I believe he's every bit as liberal as Hillary, without much thought for the repercussions.

I'm more and more certain that he's just a stooge in the first place. Today his campaign a 'matching' fundraiser, the first ever. He'll 'match' up to $2m raised in 48 hours. These numbers are peanuts, like the $100k email of the other day.

You need to divorce yourself from the idea I'm defending Trump. I'm in attack Hillary mode. With what I'm stuck with to attack with. I've benn calling this for a yea and no one listens. THEN was the time to get rid of his ass. And THAT is the point of this thread.

So no one gave you an M-60. The mission hasn't changed. You improvise, adapt and overcome. Sorry I'm missing my gunner. Suck it up.

[Kathianne]

You need to divorce yourself from the idea I'm defending Trump. I'm in attack Hillary mode. With what I'm stuck with to attack with. I've benn calling this for a yea and no one listens. THEN was the time to get rid of his ass. And THAT is the point of this thread.

So no one gave you an M-60. The mission hasn't changed. You improvise, adapt and overcome. Sorry I'm missing my gunner. Suck it up.

Sorry, I just can't get past their being two peas in a pod. Neither worth a plug nickle.

[Gunny]

Sorry, I just can't get past their being two peas in a pod. Neither worth a plug nickle.

Can't disagree with that.

[Gunny]

lynyrd skynyrd comin home live

[Gunny]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro4_u0DtFaI

[Black Diamond]

You need to divorce yourself from the idea I'm defending Trump. I'm in attack Hillary mode. With what I'm stuck with to attack with. I've benn calling this for a yea and no one listens. THEN was the time to get rid of his ass. And THAT is the point of this thread.

So no one gave you an M-60. The mission hasn't changed. You improvise, adapt and overcome. Sorry I'm missing my gunner. Suck it up.

Overcome? Besides Christie , none of Trump's opponents exuded the idea they could overcome a wet dream.

[crin63]

Myself, I'm a So-Cal Redneck. Raised by Rednecks and Southern Rebels. Admittedly, many of my rough Redneck edges have been polished but in my heart, I'm all Redneck.

I have worked with dozens of Veterans over the years. I have several friends who are Veterans. Worked partners with guys who were in the jungles of Vietnam. I grew up during the Vietnam era where the war was the only topic of discussion. I have always gotten along best with Marines. I can't say why for sure but my best friends are Marines. I got along pretty well with guys who served in the Navy as well because of their professional understanding of precision equipment. My former best friend was 82nd Airborne. My pastor is Air Force.

Out of respect, I try very hard not to comment on things Military because I am and always have been a civilian. I know there are things I don't understand and can't understand because I wasn't there. I have political opinions on the Military but will defer to my friends who have served for clarity. I spent enough time working in crews where mistakes would have cost us our lives to understand that I don't understand what it's like to be in the trenches of war. I will always make an exception with a Veteran that I won't make with others, except pastors I respect (which is very few). I will allow that they earned a differing view and give them the benefit of the doubt when we disagree. I won't do that for most people because I know why I believe what I believe.

Our Veterans deserve the respect to be heard, listened to and cared for in whatever manner they need.

[Kathianne]

Myself, I'm a So-Cal Redneck. Raised by Rednecks and Southern Rebels. Admittedly, many of my rough Redneck edges have been polished but in my heart, I'm all Redneck.

I have worked with dozens of Veterans over the years. I have several friends who are Veterans. Worked partners with guys who were in the jungles of Vietnam. I grew up during the Vietnam era where the war was the only topic of discussion. I have always gotten along best with Marines. I can't say why for sure but my best friends are Marines. I got along pretty well with guys who served in the Navy as well because of their professional understanding of precision equipment. My former best friend was 82nd Airborne. My pastor is Air Force.

Out of respect, I try very hard not to comment on things Military because I am and always have been a civilian. I know there are things I don't understand and can't understand because I wasn't there. I have political opinions on the Military but will defer to my friends who have served for clarity. I spent enough time working in crews where mistakes would have cost us our lives to understand that I don't understand what it's like to be in the trenches of war. I will always make an exception with a Veteran that I won't make with others, except pastors I respect (which is very few). I will allow that they earned a differing view and give them the benefit of the doubt when we disagree. I won't do that for most people because I know why I believe what I believe.

Our Veterans deserve the respect to be heard, listened to and cared for in whatever manner they need.
Totally agree. Gunny knows that. I respect him enough to fight with. He adores that.

[Elessar]

Totally agree. Gunny knows that. I respect him enough to fight with. He adores that.

You get a lot of respect around here as well, M'Lady. Gunny and all the Vets get mine, even if we do not agree at times.
Some Civilians, unless they are in Emergency Response, cannot fathom Focus, Adaptation, and Mission.

Example: A Search and Rescue Case...first thing is "What is the Mission" (Focus), next is "What are My Options", next is to
prepare those options in case Plan A falls apart (Adaptation), next is to complete that Mission - hopefully with success.
Driving down the freeway and getting a flat tire is far easier to deal with than a boat taking on water or losing power and
going aground or smashing into rocks.

[Gunny]

Myself, I'm a So-Cal Redneck. Raised by Rednecks and Southern Rebels. Admittedly, many of my rough Redneck edges have been polished but in my heart, I'm all Redneck.

I have worked with dozens of Veterans over the years. I have several friends who are Veterans. Worked partners with guys who were in the jungles of Vietnam. I grew up during the Vietnam era where the war was the only topic of discussion. I have always gotten along best with Marines. I can't say why for sure but my best friends are Marines. I got along pretty well with guys who served in the Navy as well because of their professional understanding of precision equipment. My former best friend was 82nd Airborne. My pastor is Air Force.

Out of respect, I try very hard not to comment on things Military because I am and always have been a civilian. I know there are things I don't understand and can't understand because I wasn't there. I have political opinions on the Military but will defer to my friends who have served for clarity. I spent enough time working in crews where mistakes would have cost us our lives to understand that I don't understand what it's like to be in the trenches of war. I will always make an exception with a Veteran that I won't make with others, except pastors I respect (which is very few). I will allow that they earned a differing view and give them the benefit of the doubt when we disagree. I won't do that for most people because I know why I believe what I believe.

Our Veterans deserve the respect to be heard, listened to and cared for in whatever manner they need.

I don't disrespect civilians. That isn't the point with me. I was a commercial electrician after I retired from the military for almost as long as I was a Marine. I totally get the danger. I did some wild crap as an electrician. But I didn't quite fit in. I was always early and never looked for an excuse to get OT; which, is not how it goes. I quit several electrical companies over that crap. I don't to BS around all day. I want my 8, and bye. They'd get mad as Hell at me but I was like, Hey, I started work at 7 and worked all day while goofed off and decided to go work and do something around 3 PM. I'm not hanging around until 8 PM while you suck off the boss's dollar.

I'm used to you get paid the same no matter how many hours you work. Get it done and get out. I value my time. I sure as Hell don't want to spend it in the S Texas sun 10 hours a day. But that mentality went all the way to the top. Mandatory OT. Why should I pay because your employees are lazy? I could do jobs by myself faster than if I was stuck on a crew.

I never did adjust to that mentality.

[Gunny]

You move forward. You don't stand still. You don't retreat. We're standing still. And getting shot to pieces.

[crin63]

I don't disrespect civilians. That isn't the point with me. I was a commercial electrician after I retired from the military for almost as long as I was a Marine. I totally get the danger. I did some wild crap as an electrician. But I didn't quite fit in. I was always early and never looked for an excuse to get OT; which, is not how it goes. I quit several electrical companies over that crap. I don't to BS around all day. I want my 8, and bye. They'd get mad as Hell at me but I was like, Hey, I started work at 7 and worked all day while goofed off and decided to go work and do something around 3 PM. I'm not hanging around until 8 PM while you suck off the boss's dollar.

I'm used to you get paid the same no matter how many hours you work. Get it done and get out. I value my time. I sure as Hell don't want to spend it in the S Texas sun 10 hours a day. But that mentality went all the way to the top. Mandatory OT. Why should I pay because your employees are lazy? I could do jobs by myself faster than if I was stuck on a crew.

I never did adjust to that mentality.

I was much the same as a Millwright and Ironworker. When I went to work for a contractor I would tell them I don't work Sundays, I only work until 4pm on Saturday, I take off when there is something important enough that I can afford to lose a days pay, when I was going to be out of town with my kids school, and my churches summer camp.

We were union so I expected that we would give the employer and customer more for their money. If they're going to pay extra for us then they darn sure ought to get something more for that extra money. My first meeting with guys that came out to work for me I told them that. I expected it of myself as well as my men. We were supposed to be professionals so we should act like it. We should be doing our work better, cleaner and faster otherwise why pay us extra. Do their jobs right the 1st time even if it takes a little longer. The finish work is where you see the craftsman so I want the next guy coming through to know we were professional craftsmen. I stayed with most companies for 2 or 3 years at a time, until work got slow.

We made big picks with cranes where the rigging was a multi-million dollar decision at times. Obviously, at different times but I was on all sides of that. I made the decisions, rigged the parts, landed the parts, and ran the cranes. Hanging iron and working iron was fun most of the time. There were times when it would make your butthole pucker and your testes crawl up inside to hide though. Watching a piece you just rigged flying overhead is satisfying and sometimes scary.

[Gunny]

I was much the same as a Millwright and Ironworker. When I went to work for a contractor I would tell them I don't work Sundays, I only work until 4pm on Saturday, I take off when there is something important enough that I can afford to lose a days pay, when I was going to be out of town with my kids school, and my churches summer camp.

We were union so I expected that we would give the employer and customer more for their money. If they're going to pay extra for us then they darn sure ought to get something more for that extra money. My first meeting with guys that came out to work for me I told them that. I expected it of myself as well as my men. We were supposed to be professionals so we should act like it. We should be doing our work better, cleaner and faster otherwise why pay us extra. Do their jobs right the 1st time even if it takes a little longer. The finish work is where you see the craftsman so I want the next guy coming through to know we were professional craftsmen. I stayed with most companies for 2 or 3 years at a time, until work got slow.

We made big picks with cranes where the rigging was a multi-million dollar decision at times. Obviously, at different times but I was on all sides of that. I made the decisions, rigged the parts, landed the parts, and ran the cranes. Hanging iron and working iron was fun most of the time. There were times when it would make your butthole pucker and your testes crawl up inside to hide though. Watching a piece you just rigged flying overhead is satisfying and sometimes scary.

I was never union. What do they have to offer a retired military person? I never held it against union people because had I not joined the Marines I would have probably been a union electrician. My grandfather was related to the President of Local 37 in San Antonio :) I was looking at the end game.

But I used to piss them quite off on that "I don't work Sundays" thing. Sorry. Count on someone else come Sunday.