Loretta Lynch Slaps FBI: No-Fly List Can Be Used to Ban Gun Buyers

[Elessar]

This woman is an idiot with not one thread of L.E. Experience at all.

No-fly List is bullshit in regard to weapons purchases. Even the Ultra-Lib ACLU
disagrees with her. She does not even understand her own Department and the
Law!

From Newsmax: http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/lynch-justice-no-fly-guns/2016/06/17/id/734404/?ns_mail_uid=28698617&ns_mail_job=1674083_06172016&s=al&dkt_nbr=od7ozsqa

[Kathianne]

Unsurprisingly to me, Trump agrees with her. The fact that there's no due process is like a bonus, not a flaw.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/donald-trump-nra-meeting-224362


<header style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: proxima-nova, &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">Trump to meet with NRA about banning gun sales for terror watch list</header><footer class="meta" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: proxima-nova, &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">By Nolan D. McCaskill (http://www.politico.com/staff/nolan-d-mccaskill), Seung Min Kim (http://www.politico.com/staff/seung-min-kim) and Nick Gass (http://www.politico.com/staff/nick-gass)
<time datetime="2016-06-15T10:01-0400" style="box-sizing: border-box;">06/15/16 10:01 AM EDT</time>
Updated <time datetime="2016-06-15T05:10-0400" style="box-sizing: border-box;">06/15/16 05:10 PM EDT</time>
</footer>

Donald Trump thrust himself to the fore of the gun debate on Wednesday, announcing that he'll meet with the National Rifle Association to discuss banning people on the terror and no-fly watch lists from purchasing firearms.


The announcement came in a tweet in the morning, roughly 90 minutes before Senate Democrats launched a filibuster to prompt action on the same issue, which is regaining attention after the Orlando massacre in which the gunman slaughtered 49 people and injured 53 others inside an LGBT nightclub.


“I will be meeting with the NRA, who has endorsed me, about not allowing people on the terrorist watch list, or the no fly list, to buy guns,” Trump tweeted.


His unprompted announcement pressures the gun lobby to help reach a compromise on the contentious proposal in the wake of the worst mass shooting in American history. While the gunman, Omar Mateen, was not on a terror watch list at the time of the shooting, he had previously been investigated by the FBI on concerns he had been radicalized.


...

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Unsurprisingly to me, Trump agrees with her. The fact that there's no due process is like a bonus, not a flaw.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/donald-trump-nra-meeting-224362

Trump is right in a way.
The idiots want to ban guns from law abiding citizens yet they have no problem allowing muslims or muslims being investigated buying guns or flying overseas to muslim terrorist nations..
Insanity seems to be a trademark with those idiots...

Nobody ever won a war by refusing to fight...
Islam makes war upon us and we refuse to fight Islam---its utter insanity..-Tyr

[aboutime]

Knowing how the Obama administration nearly always ignores our Constitution, and intentionally Avoids our laws....What is to stop O-dumbell from issuing an Executive Order that places...ALL AMERICANS on a NO-FLY LIST.....And, thereby...single-handedly FORBIDS-PREVENTS Americans from owning, having, or buying ANY WEAPONS????
Hillary, and Obama have said they want to Get rid of the 2nd Amendment!!!

There is ALWAYS an Ulterior Motive....the DUMBEST Americans among us...NEVER UNDERSTAND.

[Elessar]

I'll stand corrected to a point. But I still think Lynch is an idiot...

[jimnyc]

Trump is right in a way.
The idiots want to ban guns from law abiding citizens yet they have no problem allowing muslims or muslims being investigated buying guns or flying overseas to muslim terrorist nations..
Insanity seems to be a trademark with those idiots...

Nobody ever won a war by refusing to fight...
Islam makes war upon us and we refuse to fight Islam---its utter insanity..-Tyr

I have no issue with the no fly list, especially considering 9/11 of course. The folks on the list are pretty much on there for a reason. I don't have an issue with them using this to catch the cockroaches. And if someone is on the no fly list, and they are buying guns, the appropriate agencies should be automatically notified as well, not just a denied purchase. It would also be perfect if it would pop up on the screen at the gun stores, let them know and make them aware that this person is on the no fly list, or let them know if they need to contact any agency.

[Russ]

I'll bet the terrorists are loving this. Remember - most people on the no-fly list don't even know they are on the list until they try to board a plane, and then it becomes an incident and they are on airport video.

If this becomes law, any terrorist can find out if they are on the no-fly list without ever having to buy an airline ticket or even driving to the airport. They just go to the nearest gun shop and try to buy a gun. If the sale goes through, then they know they can buy airline tickets with no worries. If it doesn't go through, then they've just been told they're on the no-fly list, and so they plan appropriately.

[Black Diamond]

I'll bet the terrorists are loving this. Remember - most people on the no-fly list don't even know they are on the list until they try to board a plane, and then it becomes an incident and they are on airport video.

If this becomes law, any terrorist can find out if they are on the no-fly list without ever having to buy an airline ticket or even driving to the airport. They just go to the nearest gun shop and try to buy a gun. If the sale goes through, then they know they can buy airline tickets with no worries. If it doesn't go through, then they've just been told they're on the no-fly list, and so they plan appropriately.

Good to see you, Russ

[Kathianne]

I'll bet the terrorists are loving this. Remember - most people on the no-fly list don't even know they are on the list until they try to board a plane, and then it becomes an incident and they are on airport video.

If this becomes law, any terrorist can find out if they are on the no-fly list without ever having to buy an airline ticket or even driving to the airport. They just go to the nearest gun shop and try to buy a gun. If the sale goes through, then they know they can buy airline tickets with no worries. If it doesn't go through, then they've just been told they're on the no-fly list, and so they plan appropriately.


There are infants on the list, there are elderly on the list, there are folks named Jim and Tyr on the list, though not 'our' Jim or Tyr, too bad though if their last names are the same. Just a few pieces on the 'no fly list' and you all think it should be the final word on how many people's 2nd amendment rights?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/12/15/one-woman-s-case-proves-it-s-basically-impossible-to-get-off-the-no-fly-list.html

https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/what-do-if-you-think-youre-no-fly-list

http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/07/politics/no-fly-mistakes-cat-stevens-ted-kennedy-john-lewis/

[Kathianne]

Just one more:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/no-fly-list-offers-no-hope-correcting-mistakes-judge-rules-n139896


The federal government lacks an effective system for allowing people to get off the no-fly list who are put there by mistake, a federal judge ruled Tuesday.

The ruling came in a lawsuit filed by 13 American citizens and permanent residents, including four military veterans, who have been barred from flights to or from the United States or over U.S. airspace. Many of them have been told they're on the government's no-fly list.

...

If the government mistakenly puts someone on the list, the judge said, the redress process "does not provide a meaningful mechanism for travelers who have been denied boarding to correct erroneous information in the government's terrorism databases."


Those who file a complaint are merely told, after the government considers it, that the review has been completed. It does not reveal whether a person's name was on the no-fly list in the past, remains on it or has been removed.


Without knowing what information the government relied on, the judge said, a traveler has no way to contest or correct what may be a mistake. "Without proper notice and an opportunity to be heard, an individual could be doomed to indefinite placement on the no-fly list."


The Obama administration had argued that the risk of errors is low because of extensive quality controls and frequent reviews of the names on the list. But Judge Brown noted the case of Rahinah Ibrahim, a Malaysian architect, who successfully sued when she was wrongly put on the list after a federal agent checked the wrong box on a form.


Given the low standard for putting a name in the master terrorism database from which the no-fly list is derived, the judge said, the process "contains a high risk of erroneous deprivation" of constitutional rights.
...

[Gunny]

I am s-o-o-o glad I don't fly anymore. Lynch is where the term "dumb broad" comes from.

[revelarts]

There are infants on the list, there are elderly on the list, there are folks named Jim and Tyr on the list, though not 'our' Jim or Tyr, too bad though if their last names are the same. Just a few pieces on the 'no fly list' and you all think it should be the final word on how many people's 2nd amendment rights?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/12/15/one-woman-s-case-proves-it-s-basically-impossible-to-get-off-the-no-fly-list.html

https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/what-do-if-you-think-youre-no-fly-list

http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/07/politics/no-fly-mistakes-cat-stevens-ted-kennedy-john-lewis/


the no-fly list is 98% BS!
always has been.


"I have no issue with the no fly list, especially considering 9/11 of course. The folks on the list are pretty much on there for a reason."

C'mon jim you just posted that great clip (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?55486-Should-we-abolish-the-1st-admendment&p=821648#post821648) of the congressmen berating the DHS official for basically proposing the EXACT same thing.

I know it's not because Trump says it , so now you think it's a good idea.
that's not like you. please tell me that's not how it works Jim.

the congressman you posted made it clear. "When do citizens loose due process for 2nd amendment rights? What is the process afforded to U.S citizens to get on a list?" What other rights should we loose WITHOUT due process because someone somewhere in the gov't thinks they have a good "reason" to put you on an arbitrary secret gov't list?

[Kathianne]

Trump is right in a way.
The idiots want to ban guns from law abiding citizens yet they have no problem allowing muslims or muslims being investigated buying guns or flying overseas to muslim terrorist nations..
Insanity seems to be a trademark with those idiots...

Nobody ever won a war by refusing to fight...
Islam makes war upon us and we refuse to fight Islam---its utter insanity..-Tyr

So you're good with skipping due process and using the no fly list?

[Kathianne]

Actually Trump's statements regarding this and his attempting to influence the NRA to join in using the no fly list seems another indicator that he may well be acting as Hillary's stooge. This is just the most blatant and direct contradiction to what most of his supporters would believe. For most of them, whether gun owning or not, the importance of the second amendment would be important.

The NRA released a statement about Trump's comments. They'll meet with him, but their stance is clear.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20160615/nra-statement-on-terror-watchlists


Fairfax, Va.— The executive director of the National Rifle Association's Institute for Legislative Action, Chris W. Cox, released the following statement regarding terror watchlists:

We are happy to meet with Donald Trump. The NRA's position on this issue has not changed. The NRA believes that terrorists should not be allowed to purchase or possess firearms, period. Anyone on a terror watchlist who tries to buy a gun should be thoroughly investigated by the FBI and the sale delayed while the investigation is ongoing. If an investigation uncovers evidence of terrorist activity or involvement, the government should be allowed to immediately go to court, block the sale, and arrest the terrorist.

At the same time, due process protections should be put in place that allow law-abiding Americans who are wrongly put on a watchlist to be removed. That has been the position of Sen. John Cornyn (R.-Tex.) and a majority of the U.S. Senate. Sadly, President Obama and his allies would prefer to play politics with this issue.




In other words, using the 'no fly list' could be used for 'vetting' start, but if not warranted, should result in removal from the list. Problem is, since there's no due process from the start, they've yet to come up with a way for removal.

[revelarts]

yep, just nope.

I hate to say it but many of you long timers here know I told you so, I told ya so.

all this TSA NSA putting citizens on East German style list for "our safety" BS, is just going to bite us in asre.

Secret list to come and take your guns now.
I told everyone that if we start playing with our rights "for safety" they'll use those SAME rules to take more and more rights.

All you military guys are on some list. Why because you have training. you also know that all your medical and psych records are on file and they want to assume that many vets are a danger with PTS, depression etc..

AnyONE . vet or not, taking any type of psych meds, or under any kind of psych care now or in the past is on a list they want to take guns away from too.

What's the list of mass shooters that were just crazy and not muslim look like?
which list would make more practical sense to take guns from?

Trump is a knee jerk Anti-constitutionalist.
Hillary is a systematic Anti-constitutionalist.

Trump wants us all to wave the flag and curse muslims while he burns the bill of rights to gunfire.
Hillary wants us to think she's doing us a favor while she burns it behind her back.

I've now lost ALL respect for Trump views. period end of story.
Anyone who can think that using some BS gov't to take citizens guns is NO conservative.

[Gunny]

I'm lost here. Freedom of movement was a Supreme Court ruling in 1869. What's that got to do with the Second Amendment?

As far as Lynch's rhetoric goes, she should be fired. I see Jim's point on the terrorist watch list. How can you enforce a list that includes everyone but the terrorists?

[Kathianne]

I'm lost here. Freedom of movement was a Supreme Court ruling in 1869. What's that got to do with the Second Amendment?

As far as Lynch's rhetoric goes, she should be fired. I see Jim's point on the terrorist watch list. How can you enforce a list that includes everyone but the terrorists?

I'm not sure what you are talking about with freedom of movement.

The 'no fly list' is being proposed to be used as a base for not allowing folks on it to be able to buy guns, the second amendment. Both Lynch and Trump think it's a great idea.

The discussion of the problems with due process and 'no fly list' have been discussed above.

[Kathianne]

Oh and Gunny, if you don't fly, you have no way of determining if you are on the 'no fly list,' it's not available. I guess if the idea of using it were to go into effect, you'd only find out if you're on it, if you tried to legally purchase a gun.

[Gunny]

Oh and Gunny, if you don't fly, you have no way of determining if you are on the 'no fly list,' it's not available. I guess if the idea of using it were to go into effect, you'd only find out if you're on it, if you tried to legally purchase a gun.

I used to fly all the time, ma'am. Since they got more rules than airplanes now, I'd rather just drive. And if I was a good little terrorist, I'd be laughing at us. They're just slow. I get you to overreact in one direction and hit you in the ass.

Lynch and O-blah-blah politicizing this is a travesty of intelligence.

[revelarts]

One Million+ names on the terror watchlist..
20,000 new names added every month

Fox news reporters
CNN news Reporters
Former state attorney Generals
Former Senators congressmen
Former Governors
Air Marshalls on terror watch list
on duty military and veterans
surfers
grandmas
children
babies

etc...

Air Marshals: Innocent People Placed On 'Watch List' To Meet Quota
Marshals Say They Must File One Surveillance Detection Report, Or SDR, Per Month

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...-to-meet-quota (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/marshals-innocent-people-placed-on-watch-list-to-meet-quota)
You could be on a secret government database or watch list for simply taking a picture on an airplane. Some federal air marshals say they're reporting your actions to meet a quota, even though some top officials deny it.The air marshals, whose identities are being concealed, told 7NEWS that they're required to submit at least one report a month. If they don't, there's no raise, no bonus, no awards and no special assignments.
"Innocent passengers are being entered into an international intelligence database as suspicious persons, acting in a suspicious manner on an aircraft ... and they did nothing wrong," said one federal air marshal.
These unknowing passengers who are doing nothing wrong are landing in a secret government document called a Surveillance Detection Report, or SDR. Air marshals told 7NEWS that managers in Las Vegas created and continue to maintain this potentially dangerous quota system.
"Do these reports have real life impacts on the people who are identified as potential terrorists?" 7NEWS Investigator Tony Kovaleski asked.
"Absolutely," a federal air marshal replied.....
more at link (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/marshals-innocent-people-placed-on-watch-list-to-meet-quota)







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvOeRlXZm5M&feature=youtu.be


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luKtR4qSkyA&feature=youtu.be

[Kathianne]

I used to fly all the time, ma'am. Since they got more rules than airplanes now, I'd rather just drive. And if I was a good little terrorist, I'd be laughing at us. They're just slow. I get you to overreact in one direction and hit you in the ass.

Lynch and O-blah-blah politicizing this is a travesty of intelligence.

I agree with the politicizing, but it seems Trump is also doing so, no? Does that not matter to those that say they are supporting him, whether enthusiastically or not?

[Gunny]

I agree with the politicizing, but it seems Trump is also doing so, no? Does that not matter to those that say they are supporting him, whether enthusiastically or not?

I think the whole situation is stupid. You got politicians doing stupid crap and amounts to nothing. Trump's not a politician. His position is evidence of that. He thinks he can bully his way into office by alienating everyone. Brilliant strategy. :rolleyes:

However this is about President Dipstick and his equally as stupid AG. You an think what you like about Trump and I don't appreciate being put in the position of defending him. But you just can't get dumber than Obama and the people he appoints. That ain't kuddo's for Trump but I want these dumbass Dems out. I guess if I had 6 armed bodyguards I wouldn't need a gun either. Fire the Secret Service. They're Treasury agents. Let's see how that works on the left.

[Kathianne]

I think the whole situation is stupid. You got politicians doing stupid crap and amounts to nothing. Trump's not a politician. His position is evidence of that. He thinks he can bully his way into office by alienating everyone. Brilliant strategy. :rolleyes:

However this is about President Dipstick and his equally as stupid AG. You an think what you like about Trump and I don't appreciate being put in the position of defending him. But you just can't get dumber than Obama and the people he appoints. That ain't kuddo's for Trump but I want these dumbass Dems out. I guess if I had 6 armed bodyguards I wouldn't need a gun either. Fire the Secret Service. They're Treasury agents. Let's see how that works on the left.

Actually it was about the 'no fly list' and what Lynch said about using it to prevent those on it from being able to exercise their second amendment rights.

[Gunny]

Actually it was about the 'no fly list' and what Lynch said about using it to prevent those on it from being able to exercise their second amendment rights.

I get it. Didn't I call her dumb? I'm absolutely sick of these leftwingnuts twisting every subject. How do you equate gun ownership with no fly lists? Maybe they ought to keep these people out to start with? All of these morons refuse to accept the circumstances.

The media is our worst enemy. They beat all of these isolated incidences to death. Then you got politicians trying to capitalize on isolated incidences. They better hope they're never my enemy. They're so predictable it wouldn't take crap to take them out.

[Kathianne]

I get it. Didn't I call her dumb? I'm absolutely sick of these leftwingnuts twisting every subject. How do you equate gun ownership with no fly lists? Maybe they ought to keep these people out to start with? All of these morons refuse to accept the circumstances.

The media is our worst enemy. They beat all of these isolated incidences to death. Then you got politicians trying to capitalize on isolated incidences. They better hope they're never my enemy. They're so predictable it wouldn't take crap to take them out.

We agree with that. Seems the disagreement comes from applying the same to both parties.

[Gunny]

We agree with that. Seems the disagreement comes from applying the same to both parties.

Nope. We agree. What we don't agree on is how to try and stay above water and fix things. We, the people, need to fix things. top to bottom. But as I keep saying, we have to stop this crap or it's just going to get worse. And in case you haven't noticed, I'm more than willing to call the RNC a bunch of p*ssies. They have no rhyme, no reason and no direction.

[Kathianne]

Nope. We agree. What we don't agree on is how to try and stay above water and fix things. We, the people, need to fix things. top to bottom. But as I keep saying, we have to stop this crap or it's just going to get worse. And in case you haven't noticed, I'm more than willing to call the RNC a bunch of p*ssies. They have no rhyme, no reason and no direction.

It seems to me that those saying that there has to be 'change' are ignoring all the signs that regardless of which of the two parties 'wins' there will be no change for the better, only more of what's gone before. The only difference would be if the person you voted for is doing it or the other.

That's what the 'burn the house down,' has accomplished, smoke and no change.

Want change? Use the tools that have been available since the founding. Hound those that represent you. Publically disagree or call out when you feel they aren't working in your interests. Go to your local meet and greets, ask questions on what concerns you. Don't just vote for a party, vote for the individual, then watch what they do if elected. Base your next vote on their record.

Even political junkies can't watch every politician or every issue, but there are plenty of things to check out before voting, it just takes a bit of time.

As I said awhile ago, I'm just mourning what was and watching what unfurls. It's not going to be pretty.

[Gunny]

It seems to me that those saying that there has to be 'change' are ignoring all the signs that regardless of which of the two parties 'wins' there will be no change for the better, only more of what's gone before. The only difference would be if the person you voted for is doing it or the other.

That's what the 'burn the house down,' has accomplished, smoke and no change.

Want change? Use the tools that have been available since the founding. Hound those that represent you. Publically disagree or call out when you feel they aren't working in your interests. Go to your local meet and greets, ask questions on what concerns you. Don't just vote for a party, vote for the individual, then watch what they do if elected. Base your next vote on their record.

Even political junkies can't watch every politician or every issue, but there are plenty of things to check out before voting, it just takes a bit of time.

As I said awhile ago, I'm just mourning what was and watching what unfurls. It's not going to be pretty.

You're telling me? All I've said i you don't wait until the stupidity of running for office sets in. As far as I'm concerned I'd clean house. It takes voters to do that. It takes people with balls. It doesn't take last minute changes. I have and DO blame the party. The RNC is responsible for Trump. He wouldn't even have been allowed in if up to me. The right is also just as responsible. IF by some miracle Trump wins, we'll just have another shit-talking, unqualified President. But it beats a known criminal.

I'm for compulsory service. Y'all need some classes on basic strategy and tactics. You don't get to go running off on your own because you don't like the weather. You figure out how to win with what you have.

[Kathianne]

You're telling me? All I've said i you don't wait until the stupidity of running for office sets in. As far as I'm concerned I'd clean house. It takes voters to do that. It takes people with balls. It doesn't take last minute changes. I have and DO blame the party. The RNC is responsible for Trump. He wouldn't even have been allowed in if up to me. The right is also just as responsible. IF by some miracle Trump wins, we'll just have another shit-talking, unqualified President. But it beats a known criminal.

I'm for compulsory service. Y'all need some classes on basic strategy and tactics. You don't get to go running off on your own because you don't like the weather. You figure out how to win with what you have.

Gunny, do you really think only those who serve or have served have just opinions? Sometimes it sounds that way.

[Gunny]

Gunny, do you really think only those who serve or have served have just opinions? Sometimes it sounds that way.

It's not about those who serve. It's about reality. Yes, I have a certain point of view. But logic is not denied to anyone. Your personal beliefs are not more important than winning. And yes, when it comes to THAT? I think I'm smarter than people that go with their self-interest, self-indulgence, and put that above the good of the whole.

I might be a dumb grunt but I know how to win a battle and I know how to keep my personal crap where it belongs.

So I'd say those that have served DO have one up on you. We care about saving something and know how to fight. You don't. You're too worried about making a statement no one will ever hear.

[Kathianne]

It's not about those who serve. It's about reality. Yes, I have a certain point of view. But logic is not denied to anyone. Your personal beliefs are not more important than winning. And yes, when it comes to THAT? I think I'm smarter than people that go with their self-interest, self-indulgence, and put that above the good of the whole.

I might be a dumb grunt but I know how to win a battle and I know how to keep my personal crap where it belongs.

So I'd say those that have served DO have one up on you. We care about saving something and know how to fight. You don't. You're too worried about making a statement no one will ever hear.

On that we definitely disagree. It does not seem logical to vote for the candidate for the highest office that is not just flawed, but a buffoon to boot. Not only that, but you disagree with him on nearly all issues, the highest praise being, 'he's not a criminal.' That should be amended to, 'that you know of.' That doesn't seem logical to me.

If Trump loses, your vote counts just as much or as little as mine for Johnson.

As for voting for my principles, I don't have a problem with those that disagree, just when they throw 'civilian' around, as if we are lesser citizens. I don't have an issue with any military person saying those that haven't served do not have a real picture of things that involve the military or decisions regarding that. To those I'll always defer. But like the politicians, being a vet or active duty does not mean that you have some superiority over your fellow citizens in deciding what's important to each.

[Gunny]

On that we definitely disagree. It does not seem logical to vote for the candidate for the highest office that is not just flawed, but a buffoon to boot. Not only that, but you disagree with him on nearly all issues, the highest praise being, 'he's not a criminal.' That should be amended to, 'that you know of.' That doesn't seem logical to me.

If Trump loses, your vote counts just as much or as little as mine for Johnson.

As for voting for my principles, I don't have a problem with those that disagree, just when they throw 'civilian' around, as if we are lesser citizens. I don't have an issue with any military person saying those that haven't served do not have a real picture of things that involve the military or decisions regarding that. To those I'll always defer. But like the politicians, being a vet or active duty does not mean that you have some superiority over your fellow citizens in deciding what's important to each.

You are a civilian to me. It's not an insult. It's a question. I don't understand y'all. But y'all mostly couldn't win a fight if your enemy had his arm tied behind his back. And yeah, we DO have superiority over you when it comes to a fight. And you're making my point for me. Should try and listen instead of getting all butt hurt. Let the people that know what they're talking about talk about what they know about. I don't tell you how to teach school. Don't try to tell me how how to win a war.

[Abbey Marie]

Oh and Gunny, if you don't fly, you have no way of determining if you are on the 'no fly list,' it's not available. I guess if the idea of using it were to go into effect, you'd only find out if you're on it, if you tried to legally purchase a gun.


Yes, that last part was Russ' point.

I find it bizarre that our gov't can't manage data with more precision than this. Scratch that; it is choosing not to. It's sloppy, AND unconstitutional. My Con Law professor would have had a field day with this.

[Kathianne]

You are a civilian to me. It's not an insult. It's a question. I don't understand y'all. But y'all mostly couldn't win a fight if your enemy had his arm tied behind his back. And yeah, we DO have superiority over you when it comes to a fight. And you're making my point for me. Should try and listen instead of getting all butt hurt. Let the people that know what they're talking about talk about what they know about. I don't tell you how to teach school. Don't try to tell me how how to win a war.

Donald Trump's stand on the no fly list is not a damn war. Same with what Obama's done to the country and the stand Lynch took. You know I like and respect you, my guess is you actually are in a bad place now, so using 'civilian' and the red herrings war or teaching are covers. I can understand that.

[Kathianne]

Can't even use 'he doesn't understand' arguement:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/donald-trump-inclination-terrorism-shouldnt-buy-guns/story?id=39961668


Presumptive Republican nominee Donald Trump (http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/donald-trump.htm) is reaffirming his stance on potentially restricting individuals on the terror watch list from being able to purchase firearms, a week after the worst mass shooting in U.S. history."We have to make sure that people that are terrorists or have even an inclination toward terrorism (http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/world/terrorism.htm) cannot buy weapons, guns," Trump told ABC News Chief White House Correspondent Jonathan Karl in an interview to air Sunday on "This Week."


Asked by Karl if his position is that those on the no-fly or terror watch list should not be able to purchase a gun, Trump responded, "I'd like to see that, and I'd like to say it. And it's simpler. It's just simpler." (No pesky due process).


In a tweet Wednesday (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/743078235408195584), Trump announced he would meet with the NRA to discuss banning those on the terror watch list or no fly list (http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/issues/no-fly-list.htm) from buying guns.


The NRA responded with a tweet (https://twitter.com/NRA/status/743110378272350208) saying they are happy to meet with the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, and that their position is "no guns for terrorists—period. Due process & right to self-defense for law-abiding Americans.”

Trump says he understands the NRA wants to protect the Second Amendment (http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/us/second-amendment.htm), and that creating a gun ban for those on the no-fly list may deny those individuals their Second Amendment rights (http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/issues/gun-control.htm) without due process.


"Now, but what they say, and I understand that also, is the Second Amendment, they're depriving them of those rights. And that it could be that people are on there that shouldn't be on, you know, etc. etc.," Trump said.


The NRA announced its endorsement (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/nra-endorse-donald-trump-president/story?id=39253893) of Trump in May at its leadership forum in Kentucky.

[Gunny]

Donald Trump's stand on the no fly list is not a damn war. Same with what Obama's done to the country and the stand Lynch took. You know I like and respect you, my guess is you actually are in a bad place now, so using 'civilian' and the red herrings war or teaching are covers. I can understand that.

I don't need red herrings. I'm in your face. Of all the things to accuse me of. :laugh: THAT is actually a new one.

But this argument is a perfect example of where we on the right stand and exactly what the left wants. We're so busy fighting among ourselves we aren't fighting THEM. Focus. THEY are the enemy. You know I don't like Trump. I didn't like my last Capt a LOT more. It's what we're stuck with if we want to win. I don't care if he runs around running his mouth doing nothing. I DO care when the left wages a war against the Bill of Rights.

I didn't choose these candidates. I'm just stuck with the choice. Up to me, Hitlery would be in prison and Carson would be the GOP nominee. The media chooses our nominees for us. If anything needs to be attacked, it's the MSM. But I'm not going to just waste a vote on someone who nobody knows even exists when there IS a chance to win.

[Kathianne]

I don't need red herrings. I'm in your face. Of all the things to accuse me of. :laugh: THAT is actually a new one.

But this argument is a perfect example of where we on the right stand and exactly what the left wants. We're so busy fighting among ourselves we aren't fighting THEM. Focus. THEY are the enemy. You know I don't like Trump. I didn't like my last Capt a LOT more. It's what we're stuck with if we want to win. I don't care if he runs around running his mouth doing nothing. I DO care when the left wages a war against the Bill of Rights.

I didn't choose these candidates. I'm just stuck with the choice. Up to me, Hitlery would be in prison and Carson would be the GOP nominee. The media chooses our nominees for us. If anything needs to be attacked, it's the MSM. But I'm not going to just waste a vote on someone who nobody knows even exists when there IS a chance to win.

What the heck do you think Trump is doing? Same as Obama, Lynch, Hillary. Good lord, man.

[Gunny]

What the heck do you think Trump is doing? Same as Obama, Lynch, Hillary. Good lord, man.

Apparently you haven't read my posts. I see exactly what he's doing. He's still the lesser of two evils. If you think I agree with that alligator mouth and bumblebee ass, think again. I can't stand him. I can't stand Hillary more. My idealism and reality don't always coincide. You're the one not listening, woman. You stop the bleeding first. THEN you fix it. Trump isn't going to do anything he says he's going to do. He'll have both sides of Congress against him. He's just Jimmy Carter Jr.

The Dems on the other hand have done serious damage to the Constitution. Going rogue solves nothing, Billy Jack.

[Kathianne]

Apparently you haven't read my posts. I see exactly what he's doing. He's still the lesser of two evils. If you think I agree with that alligator mouth and bumblebee ass, think again. I can't stand him. I can't stand Hillary more. My idealism and reality don't always coincide. You're the one not listening, woman. You stop the bleeding first. THEN you fix it. Trump isn't going to do anything he says he's going to do. He'll have both sides of Congress against him. He's just Jimmy Carter Jr.

The Dems on the other hand have done serious damage to the Constitution. Going rogue solves nothing, Billy Jack.

Unless he stops what he's doing, you all have elected Hillary and likely lost the Senate. Now there's something to crow about. Yeah, I'll stick with my principles.

For now, I'm back to letting this go, there really isn't anything else to say. If he again agrees with that he's supposed to be 'bringing down,' I'm sure I'll speak out. :laugh2:

[revelarts]

Just one "credible tip" and that person is put on the "terrorist watch list"



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjMa7y-qfrQ

[Russ]

Good to see you, @Russ (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=3576)

Thanks, BD! I've been offline for a while because of some several really busy weeks at work, sandwiched around a trip to Bermuda. Thanks for noticing. :beer:

[revelarts]

...., The Intercept published (https://firstlook.org/theintercept/article/2014/07/23/blacklisted/) a 166-page document outlining the government’s guidelines (https://firstlook.org/theintercept/document/2014/07/23/march-2013-watchlisting-guidance/) for placing people on an expansive network of terror watch lists, including the no-fly list. In their report, Jeremy Scahill and Ryan Devereaux highlighted the extremely vague and loosely defined criteria developed by 19 federal agencies, supposedly to fight terrorism.

Using these criteria, government officials have secretly characterized an unknown number of individuals as threats or potential threats to national security. In 2013 alone, 468,749 watch-list nominations (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/terrorist-database-continues-grow-rapid-rate) were submitted to the National Counterterrorism Center. It rejected only 1 percent of the recommendations.

Critics say the system is bloated and imprecise, needlessly sweeping up thousands of people while simultaneously failing to catch legitimate threats, like Boston Marathon bomber Tamerlan Tsarnaev (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/25/us/tamerlan-tsarnaev-bomb-suspect-was-on-watch-lists.html?_r=0&gwh=CA8A4A2200C0AD38A5035D2F8CA67BCA&gwt=pay)....


link (https://theintercept.com/2014/07/23/blacklisted/)

[Gunny]

Unless he stops what he's doing, you all have elected Hillary and likely lost the Senate. Now there's something to crow about. Yeah, I'll stick with my principles.

For now, I'm back to letting this go, there really isn't anything else to say. If he again agrees with that he's supposed to be 'bringing down,' I'm sure I'll speak out. :laugh2:

My biggest concern is not letting the Dems get hold of the Supreme Court. And not keeping them out is letting them do exactly that.

[revelarts]

Nelson Mandela Was On The U.S. Terrorist Watch List Until 2008 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/05/nelson-mandela-terrorist_n_4394392.html)...
Drew Griffin of CNN. And David Nelson, (son of Ozzie and Harriet of 60s TV fame.) And Nobel Peace Prize Winner Nelson Mandela. And Major General Vernon Lewis, who holds the Army’s Distinguished Service Medal and has a top secret security clearance. And Marine Staff Sgt. Daniel Brown who flew home from combat duty in Iraq to discover he was not able to board a flight in the country he had just served. And six year-old John William Anderson, who was born on the Fourth of July and was stopped by airport security enroute to Disney World... the Ford Motor Co. is on the list ... Sen. Ted Kennedy... And the list goes on and on and on and on....

link (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-moore/the-breath-taking-incompe_b_114126.html)

WASHINGTON — The Federal Bureau of Investigation (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/f/federal_bureau_of_investigation/index.html?inline=nyt-org) has incorrectly kept nearly 24,000 people on a terrorist watch list on the basis of outdated or sometimes irrelevant information, while missing people with genuine ties to terrorism who should have been on the list, according to a Justice Department report released Wednesday.
The report said the mistakes posed a risk to national security, because of the failure to flag actual terrorism suspects, and an unnecessary nuisance for nonsuspects who may be questioned at traffic stops or kept from boarding airplanes.
By the beginning of 2009, the report said, this consolidated government watch list comprised about 400,000 people, recorded as 1.1 million names and aliases, an exponential growth from the days before the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001...
....

One of the biggest problems identified in the report was the use of outdated information, or material unconnected to terrorism, to keep people on the bureau’s own terror watch list, which is incorporated in the consolidated list. The report, examining nearly 69,000 referrals to the F.B.I. list that were either brought or processed by the bureau, found that 35 percent of those people, both Americans and foreigners, remained on the list despite inadequate justification.
“Many of these watch-listed records were associated with outdated terrorism case classifications or case classifications unrelated to terrorism,” the report said.
In some cases, it said, subjects of F.B.I. investigations that had been closed years earlier without action either were never removed from watch lists or were not removed in a timely fashion.
Potentially even more problematic were the cases of people who were not listed despite evidence of terrorist ties.
The inspector general looked at a sampling of 216 F.B.I. terrorism investigations and found that in 15 percent of them, a total of 35 subjects were not referred to the list even though they should have been.
In one case, for instance, a Special Forces soldier was investigated and ultimately convicted of stealing some 16,500 rounds of ammunition, C-4 explosives and other matériel from Afghanistan and shipping them to the United States in what investigators suspected might be the makings of a domestic terrorist plot. Yet the suspect was not placed on the watch list until nearly five months after the investigation opened....

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB124165546488694141
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/07/us/07terror.html?_r=2&ref=global-home

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/02/terrorist-watch-list-database_n_1936515.html

[jimnyc]

C'mon jim you just posted that great clip (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?55486-Should-we-abolish-the-1st-admendment&p=821648#post821648) of the congressmen berating the DHS official for basically proposing the EXACT same thing.

I know it's not because Trump says it , so now you think it's a good idea.
that's not like you. please tell me that's not how it works Jim.

the congressman you posted made it clear. "When do citizens loose due process for 2nd amendment rights? What is the process afforded to U.S citizens to get on a list?" What other rights should we loose WITHOUT due process because someone somewhere in the gov't thinks they have a good "reason" to put you on an arbitrary secret gov't list?

Real simple, and it's hardly because "Trump said it". It's common sense to prevent potential terrorists from gaining firearms. And it was NOT the same.


The NRA believes that terrorists should not be allowed to purchase or possess firearms, period. Anyone on a terror watchlist who tries to buy a gun should be thoroughly investigated by the FBI and the sale delayed while the investigation is ongoing. If an investigation uncovers evidence of terrorist activity or involvement, the government should be allowed to immediately go to court, block the sale, and arrest the terrorist.

At the same time, due process protections should be put in place that allow law-abiding Americans who are wrongly put on a watchlist to be removed.

I agree with them 100%. And I would also say, I have no issue with them implementing a system that would allow folks to quickly, and fairly, contest their name being on the list. So basically, my stance is 100% in alignment with the NRA. Oh my, I'm horrible. :rolleyes:

[jimnyc]

I'm not sure what you are talking about with freedom of movement.

The 'no fly list' is being proposed to be used as a base for not allowing folks on it to be able to buy guns, the second amendment. Both Lynch and Trump think it's a great idea.

The discussion of the problems with due process and 'no fly list' have been discussed above.

And the NRA to an extent, the biggest 2nd amendment supporters out there.

[revelarts]

Real simple, and it's hardly because "Trump said it". It's common sense to prevent potential terrorists from gaining firearms. And it was NOT the same.



I agree with them 100%. And I would also say, I have no issue with them implementing a system that would allow folks to quickly, and fairly, contest their name being on the list. So basically, my stance is 100% in alignment with the NRA. Oh my, I'm horrible. :rolleyes:


simple and unconstitutional.
just as the congressmen you posted the other day made very clear.

#4 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?55486-Should-we-abolish-the-1st-admendment&p=821509#post821509)

[Gunny]

Real simple, and it's hardly because "Trump said it". It's common sense to prevent potential terrorists from gaining firearms. And it was NOT the same.



I agree with them 100%. And I would also say, I have no issue with them implementing a system that would allow folks to quickly, and fairly, contest their name being on the list. So basically, my stance is 100% in alignment with the NRA. Oh my, I'm horrible. :rolleyes:

The bureaucracy couldn't do anything quickly if you put them on meth.

[revelarts]

And the NRA to an extent, the biggest 2nd amendment supporters out there.

the NRA is Big and has done some good work but they've also stabbed gun owners in the back by supporting many gun restrictions over the years as well.
their record is mixed. Despite their rep.

in this case they are making another clear error.

[Kathianne]

Real simple, and it's hardly because "Trump said it". It's common sense to prevent potential terrorists from gaining firearms. And it was NOT the same.



I agree with them 100%. And I would also say, I have no issue with them implementing a system that would allow folks to quickly, and fairly, contest their name being on the list. So basically, my stance is 100% in alignment with the NRA. Oh my, I'm horrible. :rolleyes:

Actually what they are saying is that they support not having terrorists getting guns. They then broach the idea of the no fly lists or other secret government lists and say, 'Not without due process. Can't use something there's no way of checking out/appeal/etc.' First they make unsubstantiated lists, then they want to take away rights based upon their lists. Really, you go along with that? The NRA doesn't.

[Kathianne]

And the NRA to an extent, the biggest 2nd amendment supporters out there.

And they disagree with both Lynch and Trump.

[Kathianne]

the NRA is Big and has done some good work but they've also stabbed gun owners in the back by supporting many gun restrictions over the years as well.
their record is mixed. Despite their rep.

in this case they are making another clear error.

If you think that, read it again. They are in alignment with the ACLU and they've made it clear.

[revelarts]

If you think that, read it again. They are in alignment with the ACLU and they've made it clear.

I hope you're right.

the way i read it it sounds like they're trying to have their cake and eat it.
hopefully i've mis read them.

[Kathianne]

I hope you're right.

the way i read it it sounds like they're trying to have their cake and eat it.
hopefully i've mis read them.

No, I don't think so. They are very big on bringing up due process. I do believe though they maybe regret having done that endorsement, but maybe not.

[Gunny]

the NRA is Big and has done some good work but they've also stabbed gun owners in the back by supporting many gun restrictions over the years as well.
their record is mixed. Despite their rep.

in this case they are making another clear error.

I agree AND disagree. Some people need restrictions. The NRA's are based mostly on common sense. The last seems to sorely lacking nowadays.

My issue with the NRA was: okay, I paid money to join your club. Stop f-ing sending me paranoid, hysterical pleas for money 3 times a month or my 2nd Amendment Rights will go up in smoke by tomorrow. You got me on your rolls and can count me as a statistic, but stop asking me for money every other day. Take a cut in pay and donate it on my behalf.

[Elessar]

I agree AND disagree. Some people need restrictions. The NRA's are based mostly on common sense. The last seems to sorely lacking nowadays.

My issue with the NRA was: okay, I paid money to join your club. Stop f-ing sending me paranoid, hysterical pleas for money 3 times a month or my 2nd Amendment Rights will go up in smoke by tomorrow. You got me on your rolls and can count me as a statistic, but stop asking me for money every other day. Take a cut in pay and donate it on my behalf.

I did the same thing several years ago. I do NOT need anyone to think for me!

[Gunny]

Actually what they are saying is that they support not having terrorists getting guns. They then broach the idea of the no fly lists or other secret government lists and say, 'Not without due process. Can't use something there's no way of checking out/appeal/etc.' First they make unsubstantiated lists, then they want to take away rights based upon their lists. Really, you go along with that? The NRA doesn't.

Neither do I. We don't need to become NAZI Germany Jew hunters. At the same time, some reality and common sense needs to be used here. I listened this idiot Lynch on TV this morning. She just talks in circles and never makes any valid points. What is with these people that they can't focus on a problem and fix it? And just for Kathianne ... It was the same as an electrician as it was military. ;)

Secure the damned border and quit letting people in until we can get a system that works. That isn't that hard of a concept. Obama and Lynch want to blame gun owners when the fact is, it's THEIR failed policies. No one wants to offend the bad guys. He's spent 8 years offend US. And Lynch is just a stooge.

[Elessar]

the NRA is Big and has done some good work but they've also stabbed gun owners in the back by supporting many gun restrictions over the years as well.
their record is mixed. Despite their rep.

in this case they are making another clear error.

Some restrictions are already supported by Law! I've stated that over and over
in this forum but few seem to read that.

By ATF Regulation (which is Law) to acquire an automatic weapon legally requires a
background check. Normally only collectors and recreational shooters will be
granted a permit to LEGALLY purchase and own one.

Illegal purchases are hard to detect...so how do you restrict that? I'd like to
find a genius to solve that puzzle.

Gunsmithing and converting a Semi-auto into full auto is also illegal by ATF Law.

Why don't people listen?

[gabosaurus]

A year or so from now, you people are going to be lamenting how easy buying weapons and firearms was in 2016. :cool:

[Gunny]

A year or so from now, you people are going to be lamenting how easy buying weapons and firearms was in 2016. :cool:

Fascist. Why don't y'all cut the chase and change theDemocratic Party's name to NAZI?

You've been killing the 10th Amendment since the Civil War. You've been attacking the 2nd Amendment since before that. And now y'all want to get rid of the First Amendment. Anything else you want to screw about that which made you? Because you leftwingers wouldn't last a day on your own, nor in a foreign country.

You people are dumb. You would destroy that which protects you.

[Elessar]

A year or so from now, you people are going to be lamenting how easy buying weapons and firearms was in 2016. :cool:

Are you ready to surrender the ones you brag of? Did you purchase them legally or
in some back alley in Hawaiian Gardens or Westminster?

[Gunny]

Are you ready to surrender the ones you brag of? Did you purchase them legally or
in some back alley in Hawaiian Gardens or Westminster?

I know where to buy a street gun in quite a few cities.

[Elessar]

I know where to buy a street gun in quite a few cities.

That, unfortunately, is quite simple. Yet these liberal hounds do not wish to realize that.
They want to penalize persons that follow the laws and regulations, and make excuses
for those that will not.

"Don't blame the instrument; blame the one who plays it." <-- My own saying.

[revelarts]

http://orig15.deviantart.net/c8b5/f/2015/352/b/a/gun_control__by_kumdang_2-d9kjuvp.jpg

[jimnyc]

http://orig15.deviantart.net/c8b5/f/2015/352/b/a/gun_control__by_kumdang_2-d9kjuvp.jpg


Terrorists after nukes: :)

https://i.imgur.com/GJlBqFj.jpg

[aboutime]

A year or so from now, you people are going to be lamenting how easy buying weapons and firearms was in 2016. :cool:


A year from now. We the People, will finally have a president who obeys the laws, follows the constitution, reminds himself of that OATH of Office, and begins to do the job he/she was elected to do for WE THE PEOPLE, and not a Magical Legacy of Pretending how Lies are facts.

[Gunny]

How bad is it you can listen to people like Obama and Lynch and say "Damn, I could do a better job." And I'm just a dumb grunt.

[Black Diamond]

How bad is it you can listen to people like Obama and Lynch and "Damn, I could do a better job." And I'm just a dumb grunt.

She and holder follow(Ed) Obama's orders. And were chosen based on skin color.

[Gunny]

She and holder follow(Ed) Obama's orders. And were chosen based on skin color.


It's just not logical thinking. The LAST thing I want are yes men. I want "Here's the problem and this is a plan that might work."

[Black Diamond]

It's just not logical thinking. The LAST thing I want are yes men. I want "Here's the problem and this is a plan that might work."

Yeah but Obama wants his agenda carrier out

[Gunny]

Yeah but Obama wants his agenda carrier out

He's an idiot. And I think pretty much the same about anyone that voted for the unqualified moron.

[Black Diamond]

He's an idiot. And I think pretty much the same about anyone that voted for the unqualified moron.

I voted against him both times I think people were desperate the first time and stupid the second.

[Gunny]

I voted against him both times I think people were desperate the first time and stupid the second.

Agreed. How many times in a row are we going to try the same failed plan expecting a different result?

[Elessar]

I voted against him both times I think people were desperate the first time and stupid the second.

I say stupid both times. I knew he was unqualified from the start.

[Black Diamond]

I say stupid both times. I knew he was unqualified from the start.

Maybe so Hillary was more qualified than Obama. But she voted for Iraq. . So the left chose Obama

I think if the economy doesn't crash, McCain beats Obama in general election .

[Gunny]

I say stupid both times. I knew he was unqualified from the start.

Said the same. Was just on a different board at the time. Said the same about Hillary being more qualified. Which says nothing. She thinks she's above the law. She got over in the 90s on Whitewater because of Monica. I'm STILL not sure that wasn't a pre-planned thing to bail her out. What did Bill have to lose? He was already a lame duck.

I considered McCain unqualified and I can't stand the guy. It was the same then as now. Who's the worst choice? I don't like Trump but we need to get those Dems out.

[Elessar]

Maybe so Hillary was more qualified than Obama. But she voted for Iraq. . So the left chose Obama

I think if the economy doesn't crash, McCain beats Obama in general election .

He was a better bet to begin with and for a start. At least he was willing to cross the aisle
and work with the opposition, instead of this quagmire of the last 7 years. Precipitated largely
by Obama.

[Gunny]

He was a better bet to begin with and for a start. At least he was willing to cross the aisle
and work with the opposition, instead of this quagmire of the last 7 years. Precipitated largely
by Obama.

That's exactly what I can't stand about him. He's been stabbing the GOP in the back for a few decades. Now you want us to vote for you? I definitely had to hold my nose on THAT vote.

And I'm sick and tired of the left and the media going after him because he was a vet. Vet to vet, he sucked as a pilot, got shot down (was the 3rd or 4th plane he lost), and got captured by the enemy. That don't make you no hero in MY vet handbook. Mine says you're going to have to kill me, cuz I ain't going home with your ass.

My 7 years old granddaughter is more qualified than Obama.