View Full Version : Bush: Americans will realize need for aliens
82Marine89
07-21-2007, 07:20 AM
President Bush yesterday said Americans will soon realize they need the immigrants and foreign temporary workers that would have been allowed by his immigration bill, which was defeated in the Senate last month.
Mr. Bush, in a town hall session in Nashville, Tenn., also refused to say whether he will pardon two U.S. Border Patrol agents convicted of shooting a fleeing drug-smuggling suspect, saying the prosecutor was a friend of his who made his case to the jury that convicted the agents.
If Mr. Bush was hoping the immigration issue would disappear after his bill's failure, those hopes were dashed, as he was asked repeatedly about border security during the forum — meant to highlight his commitment to cutting the deficit.
"The bill failed and I can't make a prediction to you at this point, sir, where it's going to head," the president told one questioner. "I can make you a prediction, though, that pretty shortly people are going to be knocking on people's doors saying, man, we're running out of workers."
Mr. Bush said there are workers who will do jobs Americans aren't doing in the agriculture sector in particular, and without them the jobs will go unfilled.
Lawmakers in Congress say they accept defeat of a broad bill and are instead turning to piecemeal efforts, such as in-state tuition for illegal-alien college students, an agriculture worker program and enhanced law enforcement.
Even Sen. John McCain, Arizona Republican and Mr. Bush's partner in pressing for a broad bill over the last few years, said in an interview with New Hampshire Public Radio last week that it's time to look at a piece-by-piece approach.
But Mr. Bush yesterday continued to tie border security to plans for a temporary worker program and legalizing the 12 million to 20 million illegal aliens already in the country and giving them a path to citizenship.
"It's impractical to kick somebody out," he said.
With the immigration bill dead, many activists turned their attention to the case of the two Border Patrol agents, Ignacio Ramos and Jose Alonso Compean, who are serving 11- and 12-year prison terms, respectively. Pressure on Mr. Bush to pardon them or commute their sentences has grown since he commuted the sentence of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby Jr., the former chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney.
One questioner asked Mr. Bush if he would "pardon these men that are unjustly in prison."
"I'm not going to make that kind of promise in a forum like this," the president said, adding that he is a friend of Johnny Sutton, the prosecutor whose office handled the case against the two agents, and who he called "a fair guy."
The president said "people need to look at the facts," and said the agents were convicted by a jury after the facts were heard.
But after a Senate committee hearing on the facts of the case this week, Sens. Dianne Feinstein, California Democrat, and John Cornyn, Texas Republican, wrote Mr. Bush asking him to commute the agents' sentences. Mrs. Feinstein said it is clear the sentences "do not match the crime."
http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070720/NATION/107200087/1002&template=nextpage
82Marine89
07-21-2007, 07:32 AM
Well Mr. Bush, you can kiss my ass. I voted for you twice and have come to regret these votes. You have single handedly accomplished what the Democrats have tried to do for years. You have destroyed the Republican Party. I heard heard and read that donations to the RNC are down anywhere from 60-78%, but you continue to shoot yourself and the party in the foot with both barrels. I would like to say that if we didn't have boots on the ground, I would wholeheartedly support your impeachment. Domestically, you have destroyed this great Nation. I don't know who you get your marching orders from, but you have clearly forgotten who signs your paycheck.
When I joined the Corps, I took an oath to protect this country from enemies both foreign and domestic. When I reenlisted, I took it again. Just because I am no longer on active duty doesn't mean that oath has no meaning to me. I will always be a Marine and I will always keep my word. As of this moment Mr. Bush, I view you as a threat to the sovereignty of this great Nation. Maybe your 'legacy' and the NAU mean more to you, but we, the American people, will take this country back. How we do it has yet to be decided.
[/rant off]
Honest question: if amnesty doesn't happen and by some modern miracle you are able to deport all illegals who will do the work? I mean we agree the work still has to get done, right? Americans have not been beating down the doors to pick up the jobs that illegals currently hold, they are beneath most Americans or at least thats what most Americans think.
Anyway a vote against amnesty is just a vote for the status quo since in reality the illegals aren't going anywhere and we do not have the logistical or financial ability to roundup millions of people and deport them.
But hey if the status quo works for you it works for me, the work gets done still!
Psychoblues
07-21-2007, 07:45 AM
The ignorance never amazes to cease me.
The ignorance never amazes to cease me.
Nor does the lengths one will go to to lie in an attempt to falsely booster their stature on a messageboard.
Pathetic, a candidate for euthanasia.
glockmail
07-21-2007, 08:30 AM
President Bush yesterday said Americans will soon realize they need the immigrants and foreign temporary workers that would have been allowed by his immigration bill, which was defeated in the Senate last month..... Bullshit. I believe in supply and demand, and the free market system. Less workers = higher wages = increased incentives for higher productivity = increased wealth.
Hugh Lincoln
07-21-2007, 11:10 AM
Honest question: if amnesty doesn't happen and by some modern miracle you are able to deport all illegals who will do the work? I mean we agree the work still has to get done, right? Americans have not been beating down the doors to pick up the jobs that illegals currently hold, they are beneath most Americans or at least thats what most Americans think.
OCA, do you recall some national emergency prior to the illegal invasion where lettuce wasn't picked? Me neither. The truth is that Americans WILL do the jobs Asshole Bush says they won't. The whole "we need them" line is bullshit. We need 20 million illegal, crime-committing, drunk-driving, rapist illegal Mexicans like we need a hole in the head! I say deport Bush and the neocons.
Pale Rider
07-21-2007, 11:36 AM
Honest question: if amnesty doesn't happen and by some modern miracle you are able to deport all illegals who will do the work? I mean we agree the work still has to get done, right?
Just heard about a new program where they've been cracking down on businesses hiring illegals, so they've been using female inmates. A bit slow to kick off but, the employers are now liking it, and the inmates enjoy making the extra money and getting outside.
There's ALWAYS a solution. Thinking illegals aliens are the ONLY people that can do this or that is not the answer.
Dry up the jobs and this illegal alien problem will practically solve itself.
Pale Rider
07-21-2007, 11:41 AM
Well Mr. Bush, you can kiss my ass. I voted for you twice and have come to regret these votes. You have single handedly accomplished what the Democrats have tried to do for years. You have destroyed the Republican Party. I heard heard and read that donations to the RNC are down anywhere from 60-78%, but you continue to shoot yourself and the party in the foot with both barrels. I would like to say that if we didn't have boots on the ground, I would wholeheartedly support your impeachment. Domestically, you have destroyed this great Nation. I don't know who you get your marching orders from, but you have clearly forgotten who signs your paycheck.
I totally agree brother. I've said the exact same thing, almost word for word.
When I joined the Corps, I took an oath to protect this country from enemies both foreign and domestic. When I reenlisted, I took it again. Just because I am no longer on active duty doesn't mean that oath has no meaning to me. I will always be a Marine and I will always keep my word. As of this moment Mr. Bush, I view you as a threat to the sovereignty of this great Nation. Maybe your 'legacy' and the NAU mean more to you, but we, the American people, will take this country back. How we do it has yet to be decided.[/rant off]
I did two hitches in the Air Force, so replace Marines with Air Force, and I'm with ya here too.
diuretic
07-21-2007, 09:04 PM
Honest question: if amnesty doesn't happen and by some modern miracle you are able to deport all illegals who will do the work? I mean we agree the work still has to get done, right? Americans have not been beating down the doors to pick up the jobs that illegals currently hold, they are beneath most Americans or at least thats what most Americans think.
Anyway a vote against amnesty is just a vote for the status quo since in reality the illegals aren't going anywhere and we do not have the logistical or financial ability to roundup millions of people and deport them.
But hey if the status quo works for you it works for me, the work gets done still!
Interesting. Some years ago I remember reading a management text and the British writer was comparing American work culture with British work culture. He made the point that Britain, as a class-ridden culture, looked down on people who did so-called "lowly" work. And then he compared it to the US work culture. He made the point that Americans didn't care what you did as long as you did it the best you could. That point really hit home with me.
Is that still valid?
diuretic
07-21-2007, 09:07 PM
Bullshit. I believe in supply and demand, and the free market system. Less workers = higher wages = increased incentives for higher productivity = increased wealth.
I thought it was not so much a question of "less workers" as a combination of demand (an economic consideration) and high skills (an occupational consideration).
Anyone can do a labouring job. Most of us don't want to because it's (a) boring and repetititve and (b) hard work.
I think the link is demand plus skills. Only a few of us can be neurosurgeons, that's a high-skill job that has continued demand so it will always be highly paid. If there are no labourers then someone will invent a machine to do the job.
OCA, do you recall some national emergency prior to the illegal invasion where lettuce wasn't picked? Me neither. The truth is that Americans WILL do the jobs Asshole Bush says they won't. The whole "we need them" line is bullshit. We need 20 million illegal, crime-committing, drunk-driving, rapist illegal Mexicans like we need a hole in the head! I say deport Bush and the neocons.
Where are these mythical Americans? Could you produce em for me lol?:laugh2:
Interesting. Some years ago I remember reading a management text and the British writer was comparing American work culture with British work culture. He made the point that Britain, as a class-ridden culture, looked down on people who did so-called "lowly" work. And then he compared it to the US work culture. He made the point that Americans didn't care what you did as long as you did it the best you could. That point really hit home with me.
Is that still valid?
No the point is not still valid. We are an an overeducated want it all now society, nobody wants to start at the bottom anymore.
diuretic
07-21-2007, 10:01 PM
No the point is not still valid. We are an an overeducated want it all now society, nobody wants to start at the bottom anymore.
I wonder why. Is it credentialism? Strange thing here is that, we're not as class-ridden and snobbish as the Brits but there's a bit of it in our culture, that white collar jobs are now not as well paid as blue-collar jobs. Too many graduates from university and not enough from trade school. If you're a tradersperson here you're going to make a mint.
LiberalNation
07-21-2007, 10:30 PM
A lot of jobs illegals do Americans wouldn't be jumping on. IE ever been inside a tyson chicken plant. My aunt lasted three days there. Stinks to high heaven and the work sucks. Do you know how high the price of chicken would be if they had to pay enough to get an all American workforce.
As for illegals, I wouldn't call it an invasion and think the Bush idea has some merit. Has for it not being republican in idea. Sure it is, the big businesses and farms defiently want them here.
82Marine89
07-21-2007, 11:25 PM
A lot of jobs illegals do Americans wouldn't be jumping on. IE ever been inside a tyson chicken plant. My aunt lasted three days there. Stinks to high heaven and the work sucks. Do you know how high the price of chicken would be if they had to pay enough to get an all American workforce.
As for illegals, I wouldn't call it an invasion and think the Bush idea has some merit. Has for it not being republican in idea. Sure it is, the big businesses and farms defiently want them here.
So it's OK for Mexicans, just not your aunt? You and those with your mentality are nothing more than modern day slave drivers. I did plenty of shitty jobs as a kid, I was just smart enough not to make a career of it. Jobs like these are the things we used to do as summer hires or to pay our way through college. They are not meant as something to be head of household or retire on. They are minimum wage, a starting point, they are not meant to be a career choice.
By allowing the government to dictate a living wage, you have just removed the incentive to improve yourself. You have also created a society of people dependent upon government for their survival. I would prefer we give someone a hand up, not a hand out.
Just my 2¢
diuretic
07-22-2007, 04:36 AM
I was lucky as a kid at school with summer jobs, I worked in a steel plant rolling mill, a blast furnace (well not in the furnace, in the furnace area) and a shipyard, it was good exposure to the real world and it helped me a lot. I was only labouring, nothing skilled of course, but I didn't find the work undignified (just bloody hard work). I wouldn't work in chicken processing. I've had some involvement in primary industry (livestock) but no way would I work in a chicken processing area. But I wouldn't work in an abattoir either.
Oh and we have the highest minimum wage in the world, apparently. And we get by.
LiberalNation
07-22-2007, 09:42 AM
So it's OK for Mexicans, just not your aunt?
Mexicans will work there, most Americans wont if there are any other possible jobs they can do.
Mr. P
07-22-2007, 09:56 AM
Well Mr. Bush, you can kiss my ass. I voted for you twice and have come to regret these votes. You have single handedly accomplished what the Democrats have tried to do for years. You have destroyed the Republican Party. I heard heard and read that donations to the RNC are down anywhere from 60-78%, but you continue to shoot yourself and the party in the foot with both barrels. I would like to say that if we didn't have boots on the ground, I would wholeheartedly support your impeachment. Domestically, you have destroyed this great Nation. I don't know who you get your marching orders from, but you have clearly forgotten who signs your paycheck.
When I joined the Corps, I took an oath to protect this country from enemies both foreign and domestic. When I reenlisted, I took it again. Just because I am no longer on active duty doesn't mean that oath has no meaning to me. I will always be a Marine and I will always keep my word. As of this moment Mr. Bush, I view you as a threat to the sovereignty of this great Nation. Maybe your 'legacy' and the NAU mean more to you, but we, the American people, will take this country back. How we do it has yet to be decided.
[/rant off]
:clap: You said it all! Exactly how I feel! :salute:
I'm still waiting, and its been like two years now that i've been asking this, for someone to bring forward this mythical American willing to, for example, pick veges in 105 degree temps in July and August in the San Joaquin Valley, CA from sunup to sundown for around minimum wage because farmers aren't going to pay more, its as simple as that, the market dictates what they will pay plus farming is pretty much not very profitable anymore and most farmers nowadays take out a loan to plant and sell the crop to pay off the loan and do it all over again next year.
The ship has sailed on people willing to work shitty jobs as young people to get by, our society is simply not like that anymore.
Trigg
07-22-2007, 12:22 PM
Where are these mythical Americans? Could you produce em for me lol?:laugh2:
I invite you to come to small town America where there arn't many illegals. Go to the hospital and you will see WHITE people in the laundry and cafeteria jobs. AMERICANS will do the work when there arn't illegals around to do it because the companies are paying higher wages.
JUST WAIT until these illegals are made citizens and start demanding higher wages from those agricultural jobs. They'll come out of the dark and start demanding better pay and leave those kinds of jobs and getting something else.
82Marine89
07-22-2007, 12:32 PM
I'm still waiting, and its been like two years now that i've been asking this, for someone to bring forward this mythical American willing to, for example, pick veges in 105 degree temps in July and August in the San Joaquin Valley, CA from sunup to sundown for around minimum wage because farmers aren't going to pay more, its as simple as that, the market dictates what they will pay plus farming is pretty much not very profitable anymore and most farmers nowadays take out a loan to plant and sell the crop to pay off the loan and do it all over again next year.
The ship has sailed on people willing to work shitty jobs as young people to get by, our society is simply not like that anymore.
Those mythical Americans you seek are on this board, they walk past you in the street everyday. You are just to far out of the loop to notice. I have been in the landscape industry for 17 years. I started out digging trenches, planting trees, cutting grass, and sweating pipe. I did it during the San Diego summers, but they are not as bad as the Santa Ana's of September and October. Now I am an operations manager for a major landscape company. I still get dirty as required, but I sought to improve myself and moved forward in this industry.
Now let me say that I agree with you that a farmer will pay what the market dictates. That is simple economics. What you fail to state, and the same goes for Liberal Nation, is that if our government enforced immigration and labor laws, the market would dictate a higher wage because only legal Americans would be competing for the jobs.
As for the ship sailing, sorry, but you are wrong again. there are plenty of kids that would work those jobs, but we live in an 'I want it now' society where liberals tend to coddle people and tell them they don't have to do things if they don't want or that it's not their fault because of something that happened in their youth. Well, again they are right. They don't have do do things they don't want, just don't complain when you want something and you can't afford it. I've done plenty of things I didn't want to do only because I realized that if I didn't, I wouldn't achieve anything in life. It's called living outside your comfort zone. When you get comfortable, you get complacent. When you get complacent, you get passed up by others.
I could continue, but I have things I need to accomplish today. Later.
Trigg
07-22-2007, 12:43 PM
Those mythical Americans you seek are on this board, they walk past you in the street everyday. You are just to far out of the loop to notice. I have been in the landscape industry for 17 years. I started out digging trenches, planting trees, cutting grass, and sweating pipe. I did it during the San Diego summers, but they are not as bad as the Santa Ana's of September and October. Now I am an operations manager for a major landscape company. I still get dirty as required, but I sought to improve myself and moved forward in this industry.
Now let me say that I agree with you that a farmer will pay what the market dictates. That is simple economics. What you fail to state, and the same goes for Liberal Nation, is that if our government enforced immigration and labor laws, the market would dictate a higher wage because only legal Americans would be competing for the jobs.
As for the ship sailing, sorry, but you are wrong again. there are plenty of kids that would work those jobs, but we live in an 'I want it now' society where liberals tend to coddle people and tell them they don't have to do things if they don't want or that it's not their fault because of something that happened in their youth. Well, again they are right. They don't have do do things they don't want, just don't complain when you want something and you can't afford it. I've done plenty of things I didn't want to do only because I realized that if I didn't, I wouldn't achieve anything in life. It's called living outside your comfort zone. When you get comfortable, you get complacent. When you get complacent, you get passed up by others.
I could continue, but I have things I need to accomplish today. Later.
Great post.
I'd like to add that while in Kansas this summer. I talked to my cousin and he's doing field work this summer to earn money, as are every one of his friends. No illegals to do the work so they hire highschool kids.
Regular Americans are doing the work, you just need to leave the big cities to find them. The work is still getting done.
Kathianne
07-22-2007, 12:46 PM
Those mythical Americans you seek are on this board, they walk past you in the street everyday. You are just to far out of the loop to notice. I have been in the landscape industry for 17 years. I started out digging trenches, planting trees, cutting grass, and sweating pipe. I did it during the San Diego summers, but they are not as bad as the Santa Ana's of September and October. Now I am an operations manager for a major landscape company. I still get dirty as required, but I sought to improve myself and moved forward in this industry.
Now let me say that I agree with you that a farmer will pay what the market dictates. That is simple economics. What you fail to state, and the same goes for Liberal Nation, is that if our government enforced immigration and labor laws, the market would dictate a higher wage because only legal Americans would be competing for the jobs.
As for the ship sailing, sorry, but you are wrong again. there are plenty of kids that would work those jobs, but we live in an 'I want it now' society where liberals tend to coddle people and tell them they don't have to do things if they don't want or that it's not their fault because of something that happened in their youth. Well, again they are right. They don't have do do things they don't want, just don't complain when you want something and you can't afford it. I've done plenty of things I didn't want to do only because I realized that if I didn't, I wouldn't achieve anything in life. It's called living outside your comfort zone. When you get comfortable, you get complacent. When you get complacent, you get passed up by others.
I could continue, but I have things I need to accomplish today. Later.
I must agree. When I was in college, during the summers I'd work in a car wash during the day and at a retail bookstore in the evening. Which job did I enjoy? Duh. Which one paid more? I'll be dating myself but I believe I made $6.25 at the bookstore, which I had worked in through most of high school. At the car wash which I had just 'landed' that summer through my brother who was working there in high school, I think it was like $6 per hour, (well above minimum wage) + tips. I averaged about $11.00 per hour and that was a long time ago.
I was the only girl working at the car wash, the owner decided that I'd be 'better at the inside car windows' because of my size. So, I was the inside person, windows/vacuuming carpet and upholstery. It was very hard work, but it paid better than anything else I could find and I really needed the money.
Would I have stayed in that job for long? No. But it served my purposes at the time. I always did my best, hoping they'd move me to the outside parts of drying the car or doing the outside windows. I realize now that would never happen, as the guys were so damned glad not to have to go in and out of the car.
82Marine89
07-22-2007, 02:13 PM
Mexicans will work there, most Americans wont if there are any other possible jobs they can do.
Typical liberal. Why don't you address the other points I made in my post to you? :poke:
I invite you to come to small town America where there arn't many illegals. Go to the hospital and you will see WHITE people in the laundry and cafeteria jobs. AMERICANS will do the work when there arn't illegals around to do it because the companies are paying higher wages.
JUST WAIT until these illegals are made citizens and start demanding higher wages from those agricultural jobs. They'll come out of the dark and start demanding better pay and leave those kinds of jobs and getting something else.
Why is it just WHITE Americans? What happened to Blacks or aren't they American?
But you did hit the nail on the head on 1 thing, higher wages, well really its two fold, the American worker is going to demand more money than he's worth plus benefits up the wazoo whereas the illegal will demand less and give 10x the work.
Hell even Pale agrees that illegals work circles around Americans.
Again to all those who stated that Americans are still busting their asses....................yeah sure it was that way 30 yrs ago and yeah sure you can still find some high school and college kids busting their asses but its the exception rather than the rule just like hell you can find some white peole who can dance their ass off but they are the exception rather than the rule.
If you were a farmer and you could get help that would take 10.00/hr and work their asses off and you would literally have to tell them to stop working vs natives that didn't produce half as much and would demand this that and the other thing, what would you choose? Well really there is no choice since the latter really does not exist now does it?
Kathianne
07-22-2007, 04:28 PM
Again to all those who stated that Americans are still busting their asses....................yeah sure it was that way 30 yrs ago and yeah sure you can still find some high school and college kids busting their asses but its the exception rather than the rule just like hell you can find some white peole who can dance their ass off but they are the exception rather than the rule.
If you were a farmer and you could get help that would take 10.00/hr and work their asses off and you would literally have to tell them to stop working vs natives that didn't produce half as much and would demand this that and the other thing, what would you choose? Well really there is no choice since the latter really does not exist now does it?
Actually that point was made by this:
Originally Posted by LiberalNation View Post
Mexicans will work there, most Americans wont if there are any other possible jobs they can do. See, Americans, young or old, will do what they have to in order to reach their goals. Same as the hard working illegal Mexicans, but to whom should we have first loyalties to? Higher prices and salaries, yes. Worth it.
Actually that point was made by this:
See, Americans, young or old, will do what they have to in order to reach their goals. Same as the hard working illegal Mexicans, but to whom should we have first loyalties to? Higher prices and salaries, yes. Worth it.
Farmers won't pay it simply because they cannot afford it, they will simply go belly up and then guess who ends up paying? Thats right, you and I.
Kathianne
07-22-2007, 04:35 PM
Farmers won't pay it simply because they cannot afford it, they will simply go belly up and then guess who ends up paying? Thats right, you and I.
I'll still buy food. Promise.
jimnyc
07-22-2007, 04:44 PM
But you did hit the nail on the head on 1 thing, higher wages, well really its two fold, the American worker is going to demand more money than he's worth plus benefits up the wazoo whereas the illegal will demand less and give 10x the work.
But that's just it, they're ILLEGAL. I'll support their hard work once they enter our country legally. Otherwise, it will cost more to have Americans doing the job, which in turn will hit all of us in our wallets. Personally, I'm willing to pay more for my services/food if it means tossing out the illegals.
You know I live you, Mike, but if we don't put a halt to this illegal crap, and FAST, it's only a matter of time before they start moving up the food chain and taking bigger and better jobs at companies who will look to profit more from paying less. Just look at the rate that we are being infiltrated at:
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=5471
Kathianne
07-22-2007, 04:52 PM
Again to all those who stated that Americans are still busting their asses....................yeah sure it was that way 30 yrs ago and yeah sure you can still find some high school and college kids busting their asses but its the exception rather than the rule just like hell you can find some white peole who can dance their ass off but they are the exception rather than the rule.
If you were a farmer and you could get help that would take 10.00/hr and work their asses off and you would literally have to tell them to stop working vs natives that didn't produce half as much and would demand this that and the other thing, what would you choose? Well really there is no choice since the latter really does not exist now does it?
You are making the arguments for those that hire illegals. Some of us are arguing that the owners should pay more, to Americans.
I'll still buy food. Promise.
Of course you will because you need it to survive.........but in that scenario it wouldn't have to be that way.
LiberalNation
07-22-2007, 05:46 PM
Typical liberal. Why don't you address the other points I made in my post to you? :poke:
I made my own point. Americans will not work in those conditions unless they there are no other jobs to be had. It also just so happens that this is how things are now, unemployment is low.
As for the illegal hispanics who are not criminals (ie besides cross ing the boarder in the first place). I don't have a problem with them working and displacing Americans who refuse to compete. They are just trying to make a better life for themselves like any other group of poor immigrients America has opened her arms to. I don't think they should get benifits like food stamps and welfare but why deport them. It cost us a bunch of money and solves nothing.
You are making the arguments for those that hire illegals. Some of us are arguing that the owners should pay more, to Americans.
Excellent, but should those Americans be required to work just as hard as the illegals do for a lesser wage? Yes but...............hint hint..........they won't.
Kathianne
07-22-2007, 05:48 PM
Of course you will because you need it to survive.........but in that scenario it wouldn't have to be that way.
I lost something, what scenario?
Kathianne
07-22-2007, 05:50 PM
Excellent, but should those Americans be required to work just as hard as the illegals do for a lesser wage? Yes but...............hint hint..........they won't.
Whether they do or not, as I wrote about car wash, I doubt anyone could have worked harder, we'll pay. I think it's worth it in any case.
Trigg
07-22-2007, 05:50 PM
I made my own point. Americans will not work in those conditions unless they there are no other jobs to be had. It also just so happens that this is how things are now, unemployment is low.
As for the illegal hispanics who are not criminals (ie besides cross ing the boarder in the first place). I don't have a problem with them working and displacing Americans who refuse to compete. They are just trying to make a better life for themselves like any other group of poor immigrients America has opened her arms to. I don't think they should get benifits like food stamps and welfare but why deport them. It cost us a bunch of money and solves nothing.
Check out the articles already posted on this sight about the hospitals in California and other border states that are going out of business because the illegals come in and don't pay their bills.
They are a problem. I find it laughable that the you are so liberal and yet you are perfectly willing to continue to let the employers USE these people and pay them next to nothing.
Yes, America opened their arms to other immigrants WHO CAME HERE LEGALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's the whole point you see.
LiberalNation
07-22-2007, 05:50 PM
I lost something, what scenario?
Let the illegals stay, get cheaper food, you benifit all around unless you plan on doing manual labor on a farm or chicken plant.
LiberalNation
07-22-2007, 05:53 PM
Yes, America opened their arms to other immigrants WHO CAME HERE LEGALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's the whole point you see.
and people like you didn't like it one bit then either. Taking American jobs, communists, those immigrients went thru hell.
They are a problem. I find it laughable that the you are so liberal and yet you are perfectly willing to continue to let the employers USE these people and pay them next to nothing.
I'm so liberal, where you getting that? Anyway if they want to stop the using they can like leave and return to their own country or try for a union. Most aren't paid too bad, just don't as much as it would take to get Americans in enough numbers to do the same job.
jimnyc
07-22-2007, 05:54 PM
As for the illegal hispanics who are not criminals (ie besides cross ing the boarder in the first place). I don't have a problem with them working and displacing Americans who refuse to compete.
They refuse to compete because they CAN'T compete. Why compete for a job that some Mexicans are doing for less than minimum wage sometimes, and doing so illegally. If the jobs were offered legitimately, and the competitors were all legal, you would see a completely different scenario. I'm not going to take a job picking vegetables for 3 bucks an hour just because that's what illegals are willing to do.
The jobs SHOULD pay more, and US workers will make more, product will cost more and more money will enter our economy. I personally think it's all relative. How much money do you think the illegals pour back into our system? I'd wager it's probably less than what it's costing us to host the illegals in the first place.
Kathianne
07-22-2007, 05:54 PM
I made my own point. Americans will not work in those conditions unless they there are no other jobs to be had. It also just so happens that this is how things are now, unemployment is low.
As for the illegal hispanics who are not criminals (ie besides cross ing the boarder in the first place). I don't have a problem with them working and displacing Americans who refuse to compete. They are just trying to make a better life for themselves like any other group of poor immigrients America has opened her arms to. I don't think they should get benifits like food stamps and welfare but why deport them. It cost us a bunch of money and solves nothing.
Let me get this strait. You think it's ok for employers to demand sweat shop wages and working conditions, depriving American citizens of jobs they won't stand for given the wages and conditions. That's ok with you? Let's see, you say you are liberal. I say I'm conservative. We disagree on the point of this post. What is wrong with this picture? I guarantee you it isn't my pov.
But that's just it, they're ILLEGAL. I'll support their hard work once they enter our country legally. Otherwise, it will cost more to have Americans doing the job, which in turn will hit all of us in our wallets. Personally, I'm willing to pay more for my services/food if it means tossing out the illegals.
You know I live you, Mike, but if we don't put a halt to this illegal crap, and FAST, it's only a matter of time before they start moving up the food chain and taking bigger and better jobs at companies who will look to profit more from paying less. Just look at the rate that we are being infiltrated at:
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=5471
Illegal schmegal, if someone busts their ass and gives 100% I don't give two shits about their residence status. I don't owe no allegiance to anybody else in this country especially the labor unions and/or the American worker, I owe allegiance to myself and my family and the economic benefits of cheap labor and the prices that it keeps down is a big benefit to us.
You want them to go? Outwork them, prove that the American worker is a better value at the higher wage but i'll tell ya if the auto industry, where the Japs have been killing us for years is any indication then fugghedaboutit.
Sounds to me like Americans are afraid of a little competition in the jobplace.
I lost something, what scenario?
Meaning you shouldn't have to pay more for food if we would let true capitalism run its course.
jimnyc
07-22-2007, 05:56 PM
Let the illegals stay, get cheaper food, you benifit all around unless you plan on doing manual labor on a farm or chicken plant.
I benefit all around simply because of cheaper food produced by illegal workers?
Trigg
07-22-2007, 05:56 PM
Why is it just WHITE Americans? What happened to Blacks or aren't they American?
But you did hit the nail on the head on 1 thing, higher wages, well really its two fold, the American worker is going to demand more money than he's worth plus benefits up the wazoo whereas the illegal will demand less and give 10x the work.
Hell even Pale agrees that illegals work circles around Americans.
I'm stating a fact about the place where I work and since there are only 2 blacks at the hospital I said white people.
So your all for illegals immigrants. Are you for the amnesty plan???????????
12 million people who work construction/farms/and other low income work, are then going to DEMAND the same wage everyone else does. Guess what, they won't work for the same wages once they're legal, then your senario goes into affect anyway with supposedly higher prices on food.
Maybe you like the employers using and abusing illegal labor, after all who cares about them, use them up and if they get hurt who cares. They aren't Americans after all and there are millions waiting to work for nothing.
Whether they do or not, as I wrote about car wash, I doubt anyone could have worked harder, we'll pay. I think it's worth it in any case.
Must've missed the car wash story.
Kathianne, do you support more pay for less work based solely on resident status?
Kathianne
07-22-2007, 05:57 PM
Meaning you shouldn't have to pay more for food if we would let true capitalism run its course.
I may be jumping the shark here, but if 'true capitalism' means slavery, I'd rather choose amended capitalism. Same with this illegal crap. If tomatoes should be $3.09 a lb, instead of .98, it's worth it.
LiberalNation
07-22-2007, 05:58 PM
Let me get this strait. You think it's ok for employers to demand sweat shop wages and working conditions, depriving American citizens of jobs they won't stand for given the wages and conditions. That's ok with you? Let's see, you say you are liberal. I say I'm conservative. We disagree on the point of this post. What is wrong with this picture? I guarantee you it isn't my pov.
I like cheaper veggies. You know how much they already cost. It'll soar when the farmers can't get their crops picked without loosing money cuz there's no one willing to pick at the price they can substain.
jimnyc
07-22-2007, 05:59 PM
Illegal schmegal, if someone busts their ass and gives 100% I don't give two shits about their residence status. I don't owe no allegiance to anybody else in this country especially the labor unions and/or the American worker, I owe allegiance to myself and my family and the economic benefits of cheap labor and the prices that it keeps down is a big benefit to us.
You want them to go? Outwork them, prove that the American worker is a better value at the higher wage but i'll tell ya if the auto industry, where the Japs have been killing us for years is any indication then fugghedaboutit.
Sounds to me like Americans are afraid of a little competition in the jobplace.
I have no problem with competition, I have a problem with ILLEGALS. I shouldn't have to outwork them for them to go, they should follow the laws of the United States to begin with.
I have an extensive background in landscaping. There are literally hundreds of landscaping firms near me doing work within very affluent neighborhoods. I can't get a job with any of them unless I'm willing to do so at a wage that is not enough to survive on, at least if I plan on doing things legally.
Trigg
07-22-2007, 06:00 PM
and people like you didn't like it one bit then either. Taking American jobs, communists, those immigrients went thru hell.
I'm so liberal, where you getting that? Anyway if they want to stop the using they can like leave and return to their own country or try for a union. Most aren't paid too bad, just don't as much as it would take to get Americans in enough numbers to do the same job.
Excuse me?????? People like me were immigrants back then and I'm thrilled my ancesters came here. I'm well aware of what the Irish went through back then since I can trace my family back there. CAN YOU???????
Your not liberal? Then you might want to change your screen name cause it reads LiberalNation.
People should continue to come to this country LEGALLY to seek a better life.
I'm stating a fact about the place where I work and since there are only 2 blacks at the hospital I said white people.
So your all for illegals immigrants. Are you for the amnesty plan???????????
12 million people who work construction/farms/and other low income work, are then going to DEMAND the same wage everyone else does. Guess what, they won't work for the same wages once they're legal, then your senario goes into affect anyway with supposedly higher prices on food.
Maybe you like the employers using and abusing illegal labor, after all who cares about them, use them up and if they get hurt who cares. They aren't Americans after all and there are millions waiting to work for nothing.
You see though you left out a vital part of amnesty, you left out that we start collecting taxes and other things from them that aren't being collected now, in other words they start paying into the system that everyone keeps bitching about them abusing.
Do you support congress's recent decision to keep the status quo and do nothing about illegals? I ask that because there are only two choices since deportation is financially and logistically impossible, its amnesty or status quo, whats your poison?
Kathianne
07-22-2007, 06:02 PM
I like cheaper veggies. You know how much they already cost. It'll soar when the farmers can't get their crops picked without loosing money cuz there's no one willing to pick at the price they can substain.
They'll get someone to pick the veggies, they'll just have to pay them a going wage.
If the temps are nearing 100 degrees, the hours are long, no thinking involved, $10 bucks seems fair, with adequate breaks. My guess are illegals are going with no breaks and probably for under $5 per hour. So I get tomatoes at .98 per pound.
I may be jumping the shark here, but if 'true capitalism' means slavery, I'd rather choose amended capitalism. Same with this illegal crap. If tomatoes should be $3.09 a lb, instead of .98, it's worth it.
Slavery denotes no wages being paid.........now thats hardly the truth. Lets keep the catchwords meant to enflame emotions out of this discussion Kath.
jimnyc
07-22-2007, 06:03 PM
You see though you left out a vital part of amnesty, you left out that we start collecting taxes and other things from them that aren't being collected now, in other words they start paying into the system that everyone keeps bitching about them abusing.
How about they come here legally to begin with, and pay taxes like the rest of us. Wouldn't that be fair?
Trigg
07-22-2007, 06:03 PM
Illegal schmegal, if someone busts their ass and gives 100% I don't give two shits about their residence status. I don't owe no allegiance to anybody else in this country especially the labor unions and/or the American worker, I owe allegiance to myself and my family and the economic benefits of cheap labor and the prices that it keeps down is a big benefit to us.
You want them to go? Outwork them, prove that the American worker is a better value at the higher wage but i'll tell ya if the auto industry, where the Japs have been killing us for years is any indication then fugghedaboutit.
Sounds to me like Americans are afraid of a little competition in the jobplace.
I don't know how else to say this. THEY ARE PUTTING AMERICANS OUT OF WORK EVERY TIME THEY GO TO A HOSPITAL AND DO NOT PAY THEIR BILLS. HOSPITALS IN BORDER STATES ARE ALREADY CLOSING.
But, you go ahead and not care about others so long as you get your cheap veggies.
Kathianne
07-22-2007, 06:05 PM
Slavery denotes no wages being paid.........now thats hardly the truth. Lets keep the catchwords meant to enflame emotions out of this discussion Kath.
Actually what is being done to illegals morally is worse than slavery or indentured servitude. No healthcare, no reward at the end.
If this is liberal solution, count me out.
LiberalNation
07-22-2007, 06:06 PM
Excuse me?????? People like me were immigrants back then and I'm thrilled my ancesters came here. I'm well aware of what the Irish went through back then since I can trace my family back there. CAN YOU???????
Yes I can.
Your not liberal? Then you might want to change your screen name cause it reads LiberalNation.
Well I would, but people across the net regconize me by that name so better keep it.
P
eople should continue to come to this country LEGALLY to seek a better life.
and most poor couldn't seeing all the fee's and long waits. Why when they can cross the boarder without the fuss. You have to give people an incentive to do so legaly if your going to make it so easy to not.
Trigg
07-22-2007, 06:06 PM
You see though you left out a vital part of amnesty, you left out that we start collecting taxes and other things from them that aren't being collected now, in other words they start paying into the system that everyone keeps bitching about them abusing.
Do you support congress's recent decision to keep the status quo and do nothing about illegals? I ask that because there are only two choices since deportation is financially and logistically impossible, its amnesty or status quo, whats your poison?
Neither. I'm for building a fence and slowly deporting them back to their countries. It might take time, but it is doable.
Stem the flow. Or we could to an amnesty now and 20 yrs from now another, 20 yrs another, 20 yrs another. The last amnesty didn't work why do you think this one will.
Trigg
07-22-2007, 06:09 PM
Yes I can. Actually am Irish, but one side of my family came before the revolution and big immigrient waves.
Well I would be people across the net regconize me by that name so better keep it.
P
and most poor couldn't seeing all the fee's and long waits. Why when they can cross the boarder without the fuss. You have to give people an incentive to do so legaly if your going to make it so easy to not.
so Your people were the ones who didn't want the immigrants...........
Plenty of poor people come here legally every year. Why should we start bending the rules now.
Kathianne
07-22-2007, 06:09 PM
Neither. I'm for building a fence and slowly deporting them back to their countries. It might take time, but it is doable.
Stem the flow. Or we could to an amnesty now and 20 yrs from now another, 20 yrs another, 20 yrs another. The last amnesty didn't work why do you think this one will.
and I'm more 'conservative' or 'liberal' than you. I think we should do zip to those undocumented. But think we should do major to those that hire them, with 3rd time, incarceration.
Most of those that want to better themselves, children will return to homeland. If there isn't 'legitimate employment.'
LiberalNation
07-22-2007, 06:10 PM
What would it hurt if you close up the boarder at the same time. I'd suggest both if people are let woried about the illegals getting "our" jobs.
LiberalNation
07-22-2007, 06:11 PM
Plenty of poor people come here legally every year. Why should we start bending the rules now.
Most getting refugee/other status status. Then you have the Cubans, ect.
Kathianne
07-22-2007, 06:11 PM
What would it hurt if you close up the boarder at the same time. I'd suggest both if people are let woried about the illegals getting "our" jobs.
I can't figure out your response here.
I have no problem with competition, I have a problem with ILLEGALS. I shouldn't have to outwork them for them to go, they should follow the laws of the United States to begin with.
I have an extensive background in landscaping. There are literally hundreds of landscaping firms near me doing work within very affluent neighborhoods. I can't get a job with any of them unless I'm willing to do so at a wage that is not enough to survive on, at least if I plan on doing things legally.
Who said they don't follow the laws?......forgetting the illegal shit which is simply fixable, and was on its way to being fixed before xenophobia ruled the day.
What if the new millenium means you have to bust your ass harder for less money and thats just the way it is?
jimnyc
07-22-2007, 06:12 PM
Yes I can.
Well I would, but people across the net regconize me by that name so better keep it.
P
and most poor couldn't seeing all the fee's and long waits. Why when they can cross the boarder without the fuss. You have to give people an incentive to do so legaly if your going to make it so easy to not.
We need to give people an incentive not to break the law? That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. How about they don't break the law because it's ILLEGAL? Start deporting every last one of them, put them in jail... I think THAT incentive will slow them down a bit.
How about they come here legally to begin with, and pay taxes like the rest of us. Wouldn't that be fair?
We all came here legally originally? Not.
Bush tried to get them to start paying taxes, the xenophobes squashed that.
LiberalNation
07-22-2007, 06:13 PM
But it would cost us a ton to do it. Cost vs. advantage. Is getting rid of them really worth the cost. Our government is already in the hole from the wars and programs.
I don't know how else to say this. THEY ARE PUTTING AMERICANS OUT OF WORK EVERY TIME THEY GO TO A HOSPITAL AND DO NOT PAY THEIR BILLS. HOSPITALS IN BORDER STATES ARE ALREADY CLOSING.
But, you go ahead and not care about others so long as you get your cheap veggies.
AND I WILL SAY THIS........BUSH TRIED TO FIX THIS BUT YOU GUYS SQUASHED IT BECAUSE LORDY WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE ILLEGALS TO BITCH ABOUT.
You do realize you support the status quo, right?
Actually what is being done to illegals morally is worse than slavery or indentured servitude. No healthcare, no reward at the end.
If this is liberal solution, count me out.
Bush tried to fix that, you realize that, eh?
Kathianne
07-22-2007, 06:16 PM
We all came here legally originally? Not.
Bush tried to get them to start paying taxes, the xenophobes squashed that.
Until the 1920's or so, there weren't laws about immigration, barring diseases. However, there are now, for good reasons, that you are ignoring.
Neither. I'm for building a fence and slowly deporting them back to their countries. It might take time, but it is doable.
Stem the flow. Or we could to an amnesty now and 20 yrs from now another, 20 yrs another, 20 yrs another. The last amnesty didn't work why do you think this one will.
Deportation is not doable, it will never happen or it would've already happened.
LiberalNation
07-22-2007, 06:17 PM
You guys are arguing conservative side me and OCA the liberal as far as I know. At least that's how it plays across the net. Conservative want a hardline against the illegals regardless of cost and liberals wouldn't mind giving them amenesty program. Unless of course there Union dems, then they don't like it cuz the hispanics are taking there jobs.
jimnyc
07-22-2007, 06:20 PM
Who said they don't follow the laws?......forgetting the illegal shit which is simply fixable, and was on its way to being fixed before xenophobia ruled the day.
What if the new millenium means you have to bust your ass harder for less money and thats just the way it is?
I did, and they do almost on a daily basis. The next town over from me, Mamaroneck, NY, is filled with illegal Mexicans. It's been documented in all of our local papers and investigated, yet they remain. They take many of the jobs from legal citizens. Then you have the day laborers that stand outside the Hess station about a mile from me. They do so right in front of a sign forbidding such activity! We pay about 12-13k per year in taxes and they pay zero. Also, although the town I live in is much different with little to no crime, the town they live in is a disgrace. They are a burden to our finances and lessen the value of what was once decent neighborhoods.
jimnyc
07-22-2007, 06:22 PM
We all came here legally originally? Not.
Bush tried to get them to start paying taxes, the xenophobes squashed that.
Not sure about you but I was born here. My great Grandparents came here many years ago, and did so legally, as did many, many before them.
Should I have the right to go to any country of my choosing, live tax free, not pay my bills, work illegally - and then demand amnesty because of my illegal activity?
jimnyc
07-22-2007, 06:24 PM
You guys are arguing conservative side me and OCA the liberal as far as I know.
I can't speak for the rest here, but I'm arguing legal versus illegal. We have laws in our nation for a reason. To blindly look away simply because it's easier and cheaper to do so is ridiculous.
Kathianne
07-22-2007, 06:33 PM
You guys are arguing conservative side me and OCA the liberal as far as I know. At least that's how it plays across the net. Conservative want a hardline against the illegals regardless of cost and liberals wouldn't mind giving them amenesty program. Unless of course there Union dems, then they don't like it cuz the hispanics are taking there jobs.
That's funny, I'm not for deportation, other than for criminals, after they've served their sentences.
I did, and they do almost on a daily basis. The next town over from me, Mamaroneck, NY, is filled with illegal Mexicans. It's been documented in all of our local papers and investigated, yet they remain. They take many of the jobs from legal citizens. Then you have the day laborers that stand outside the Hess station about a mile from me. They do so right in front of a sign forbidding such activity! We pay about 12-13k per year in taxes and they pay zero. Also, although the town I live in is much different with little to no crime, the town they live in is a disgrace. They are a burden to our finances and lessen the value of what was once decent neighborhoods.
Bush tried to fix all that.
Not sure about you but I was born here. My great Grandparents came here many years ago, and did so legally, as did many, many before them.
Should I have the right to go to any country of my choosing, live tax free, not pay my bills, work illegally - and then demand amnesty because of my illegal activity?
Bush tried to fix all that. As far as I know they didn't demand amnesty, hell there have been Latinos in this country illegally for decades and they made no peep about amnesty until the xenophobes got all fired up.
I can't speak for the rest here, but I'm arguing legal versus illegal. We have laws in our nation for a reason. To blindly look away simply because it's easier and cheaper to do so is ridiculous.
Look Jimmy, its not like they committed genocide, hell this country looks away all the friggin time on crime.....do I need to mention O.J.?
Deportation is not doable, it will never happen or it would've already happened.
You know that is not a tenable argument...
I disagree.
jimnyc;92962]They refuse to compete because they CAN'T compete. Why compete for a job that some Mexicans are doing for less than minimum wage
The depression. Are you saying that illegal borders make the wage?
sometimes, and doing so illegally. If the jobs were offered legitimately, and the competitors were all legal, you would see a completely different scenario. I'm not going to take a job picking vegetables for 3 bucks an hour just because that's what illegals are willing to do.
I am not sure. If you had not job, no nothing, there was no welfare, nothing, and you had only this job, you would not take it?
The jobs SHOULD pay more, and US workers will make more, product will cost more and more money will enter our economy. I personally think it's all relative. How much money do you think the illegals pour back into our system? I'd wager it's probably less than what it's costing us to host the illegals in the first place
Your shitting me. The "job" should pay more?
Yes, the illegals are costing us more and that is why Americans don't have jobs.
You know that is not a tenable argument...
How so? Explain how its financially and logistically possible? Hell we can't even roundup and police American cities with a minimal criminal population much less roundup and deport 12-18,000,000 people.
Everything you guys have a problem with in regards to illegals Bush tried to fix with the amnesty bill, you guys shot it down, don't you want things fixed?
jimnyc
07-22-2007, 07:19 PM
Bush tried to fix all that.
Bush tried to fix all that. As far as I know they didn't demand amnesty, hell there have been Latinos in this country illegally for decades and they made no peep about amnesty until the xenophobes got all fired up.
Again, I can't speak for everyone, but I've been against people entering and being able to stay in our country illegally for as long as I can remember.
Look Jimmy, its not like they committed genocide, hell this country looks away all the friggin time on crime.....do I need to mention O.J.?
I've committed crimes and paid my dues, and now I expect the same from the rest of society.
At least OJ was brought forth to court for his alleged crimes. Would have been a different ballgame if he was granted amnesty/immunity simply because it was cost efficient.
Again, I can't speak for everyone, but I've been against people entering and being able to stay in our country illegally for as long as I can remember.
I've committed crimes and paid my dues, and now I expect the same from the rest of society.
At least OJ was brought forth to court for his alleged crimes. Would have been a different ballgame if he was granted amnesty/immunity simply because it was cost efficient.
He was granted amnesty/immunity simply because he was Black.
Anyway how would you, Jimmy douchebag:laugh2: propose going about getting rid of all these illegals? Where you gonna find the manpower? The money? How you gonna hunt them all down? Hell how you gonna stop more from coming in(a fence isn't the solution)?
jimnyc
07-22-2007, 07:25 PM
I disagree.
The depression. Are you saying that illegal borders make the wage?
I am not sure. If you had not job, no nothing, there was no welfare, nothing, and you had only this job, you would not take it?
Your shitting me. The "job" should pay more?
Yes, the illegals are costing us more and that is why Americans don't have jobs.
Yes, the jobs SHOULD pay more. You do realize we have a federal minimum wage, no? You do realize that if you took a job at minimum wage AND paid your taxes, that you couldn't survive unless you lived in a house with about 20 others, no? I'm not speaking of 16 year olds fresh out of high school, I'm speaking of working class adults that have families to feed.
I'm willing to work the jobs, yes. But what would be the point of working a typical workweek and not barely being able to fill my gas tank after taxes? The only reason these jobs pay so little is because companies know the illegals will work for this amount. So yes, in a sense there are many jobs being dictated by the illegal borders.
Jimmy, Aug.18, party at my house, bring you and your clueless brother, i'm serving Mexican food served by illegals, can I count you in?:laugh2:
Its authentic Mexican bro, straight from the old country.
jimnyc
07-22-2007, 07:28 PM
He was granted amnesty/immunity simply because he was Black.
Anyway how would you, Jimmy douchebag:laugh2: propose going about getting rid of all these illegals? Where you gonna find the manpower? The money? How you gonna hunt them all down? Hell how you gonna stop more from coming in(a fence isn't the solution)?
No doubt, I fully agree as to why he beat the system. Many parts of our justice system are flawed as well. But as Americans we did our duty by bringing him forth to answer for the crimes.
I say toss them out on their asses one by one as we come across them. Whatever money spent will be well worth it in the long run, in my opinion. When tax paying citizens take over their jobs you will slowly see the money paid back.
jimnyc
07-22-2007, 07:30 PM
Jimmy, Aug.18, party at my house, bring you and your clueless brother, i'm serving Mexican food served by illegals, can I count you in?:laugh2:
Its authentic Mexican bro, straight from the old country.
Hey, if you're serious, I'll certainly try and make it, and drag Johnny along with me. I'll gladly eat Mexican food, but can't guarantee you that if I down some Tequila that I don't pick a few fights with the illegals by night's end! :)
Yes, the jobs SHOULD pay more. You do realize we have a federal minimum wage, no? You do realize that if you took a job at minimum wage AND paid your taxes, that you couldn't survive unless you lived in a house with about 20 others, no? I'm not speaking of 16 year olds fresh out of high school, I'm speaking of working class adults that have families to feed.
I'm willing to work the jobs, yes. But what would be the point of working a typical workweek and not barely being able to fill my gas tank after taxes? The only reason these jobs pay so little is because companies know the illegals will work for this amount. So yes, in a sense there are many jobs being dictated by the illegal borders.
Jimmy, I believe that many illegals make way more than the minimum wage simply because I think that many employers nowadays know that the work they are receiving from illegals is worth much more.
Minimum wage isn't driven by illegals , its driven by lib Demos who believe they are actually helping people by making sure the shitty burger flipping job they are working can only pay minimum wage wand not afford raises.
jimnyc
07-22-2007, 07:33 PM
Jimmy, I believe that many illegals make way more than the minimum wage simply because I think that many employers nowadays know that the work they are receiving from illegals is worth much more.
Minimum wage isn't driven by illegals , its driven by lib Demos who believe they are actually helping people by making sure the shitty burger flipping job they are working can only pay minimum wage wand not afford raises.
Of course not "all" jobs are paying at or below minimum wage to illegals, but I'd best most are.
And FWIW - I think those liable at these companies for giving jobs to illegals and hurting our economy via improper taxation should be tossed out on their asses too!
Hey, if you're serious, I'll certainly try and make it, and drag Johnny along with me. I'll gladly eat Mexican food, but can't guarantee you that if I down some Tequila that I don't pick a few fights with the illegals by night's end! :)
Pick a fight at my place and you'll be singing Greek out your asshole by night's end!
Yes i'm serious, i'll pm you with more info. No, i'm not serving any Latin food, just original white boy Greek eats.
Anybody else within earshot of Maryland wanna come? Let me rephrase that, anybody within earshot that I LIKE wanna come?
Of course not "all" jobs are paying at or below minimum wage to illegals, but I'd best most are.
And FWIW - I think those liable at these companies for giving jobs to illegals and hurting our economy via improper taxation should be tossed out on their asses too!
Why? They are simply looking for the best man to do the job.
Again Jimmy you complain about them paying no taxes, Bush tried to fix that and start collecting taxes from them, why didn't you support that you stupid fuck?:finger3:
jimnyc
07-22-2007, 07:37 PM
Pick a fight at my place and you'll be singing Greek out your asshole by night's end!
Yes i'm serious, i'll pm you with more info. No, i'm not serving any Latin food, just original white boy Greek eats.
Anybody else within earshot of Maryland wanna come? Let me rephrase that, anybody within earshot that I LIKE wanna come?
Ok, I'll grant amnesty to the illegals for the evening. But if your homo 49er loving ass tries to hit on me, then it's on, brother! LOL
I assume we'll be having shit tacos then? :)
jimnyc
07-22-2007, 07:39 PM
Why? They are simply looking for the best man to do the job.
But that man happens to be illegal, and what the company would be doing would be illegal. No way around that, partner!
But that man happens to be illegal, and what the company would be doing would be illegal. No way around that, partner!
Grant them amnesty and he suddenly becomes legal, voila! Really brother its the only way.
jimnyc
07-22-2007, 07:41 PM
Again Jimmy you complain about them paying no taxes, Bush tried to fix that and start collecting taxes from them, why didn't you support that you stupid fuck?:finger3:
Because they've already siphoned enough from our economy. I'd rather they toss them out. Asking them to start paying taxes now would be 'forgiving' their illegal activities already committed.
Don't do the crime if you can't do the time!
Ok, I'll grant amnesty to the illegals for the evening. But if your homo 49er loving ass tries to hit on me, then it's on, brother! LOL
I assume we'll be having shit tacos then? :)
Hit on you? Felons don't do it for me.
You'll get fucked up on the ouzo then i'll send you home wearing a Rice 49ers jersey.
You'll be eating smoked pole.
jimnyc
07-22-2007, 07:43 PM
Grant them amnesty and he suddenly becomes legal, voila! Really brother its the only way.
Why should lawbreakers be granted amnesty? Are there a lot of other criminals in the US that we should arbitrarily just grant amnesty to for their crimes?
Kathianne
07-22-2007, 07:43 PM
Grant them amnesty and he suddenly becomes legal, voila! Really brother its the only way.
Dry up the jobs, pay Americans what they are worth. What's wrong with that? No deportations, for those that aren't felons.
jimnyc
07-22-2007, 07:44 PM
Hit on you? Felons don't do it for me.
You'll get fucked up on the ouzo then i'll send you home wearing a Rice 49ers jersey.
You'll be eating smoked pole.
See that, you're offering me your pole already, you dirty Greek fuck!
Because they've already siphoned enough from our economy. I'd rather they toss them out. Asking them to start paying taxes now would be 'forgiving' their illegal activities already committed.
Don't do the crime if you can't do the time!
What illegal activities? The only activity I know of was crossing the border and really thats like low priority on my list.
More concerned with Iraq, getting my taxes lowered and the growing social decay in America.
Kathianne
07-22-2007, 07:46 PM
What illegal activities? The only activity I know of was crossing the border and really thats like low priority on my list.
More concerned with Iraq, getting my taxes lowered and the growing social decay in America.
What do you have against hiring legal Americans or legal immigrants for these jobs?
See that, you're offering me your pole already, you dirty Greek fuck!
No, actual pole.........what the fuck? See where your mind is, you are probably actually hoping i'll slip you a little Greek that night. I'm appalled!
Actually i'm gonna lay the pipe to Johnny:laugh2::laugh2:
Dry up the jobs, pay Americans what they are worth. What's wrong with that? No deportations, for those that aren't felons.
Americans aren't worth what they would want to be paid at these jobs, thats the simple and hard truth.
And the ones that aren't felons?
What do you have against hiring legal Americans or legal immigrants for these jobs?
Legal Americans simply do not produce at as high a rate or as high a quality labor wise as illegals, again thats just the simple hard truth.
Kathianne
07-22-2007, 07:54 PM
Legal Americans simply do not produce at as high a rate or as high a quality labor wise as illegals, again thats just the simple hard truth.
Based on what, oca? You are pulling that out of your hat.
Based on what, oca? You are pulling that out of your hat.
No, if it weren't true companies would not risk hiring them, they wouldn't care about saving money from low wages because production would drop which would mean PROFIT margin would drop.
Low wages are not the main reason for hiring of illegals, work ethic is.
Kathianne
07-22-2007, 08:10 PM
No, if it weren't true companies would not risk hiring them, they wouldn't care about saving money from low wages because production would drop which would mean PROFIT margin would drop.
Low wages are not the main reason for hiring of illegals, work ethic is.
How do you figure, they are doing more than they can get away with? If they knew the law would come down on them, they'd stop. They'd have to pay a going wage for the type of work.
Why do you think Americans should not get a decent wage?
Why do you think Americans should not get a decent wage?
The American worker's production nowadays simply does not equal what he receives in pay and benefits. We can blame unions for that.
Work ethic is the main reason for the hiring of illegals, not wage. If illegals were granted amnesty and all of a sudden their wages went up I guarantee their production would rise along with the wage, not so with the American worker, he demands more but production stays static.
Kathianne
07-22-2007, 08:27 PM
The American worker's production nowadays simply does not equal what he receives in pay and benefits. We can blame unions for that.
Work ethic is the main reason for the hiring of illegals, not wage. If illegals were granted amnesty and all of a sudden their wages went up I guarantee their production would rise along with the wage, not so with the American worker, he demands more but production stays static.
I disagree on several fronts. I think Americans would take the jobs, ala my example of car wash. I also think the illegals could not work any more than they do, which is you worst fallacy, which I doubt you believe. It undermines all you've posted before.
I disagree on several fronts. I think Americans would take the jobs, ala my example of car wash. I also think the illegals could not work any more than they do, which is you worst fallacy, which I doubt you believe. It undermines all you've posted before.
What makes you think they couldn't work anymore than they do?
BTW nothing has been undermined, i've never been refuted on any claim i've ever made on this issue from western state economy collapse to there being no Americans sitting around waiting for these jobs to the work ethic of illegals. All i've ever hearD was "but they are illegal".
Missed the car wash deal, expound.
Kathianne
07-22-2007, 08:38 PM
What makes you think they couldn't work anymore than they do?
BTW nothing has been undermined, i've never been refuted on any claim i've ever made on this issue from western state economy collapse to there being no Americans sitting around waiting for these jobs to the work ethic of illegals. All i've ever hearD was "but they are illegal".
Missed the car wash deal, expound.
I'm not going into any pissing match. If it makes you feel better I'll declare "Oca rules." As for the car wash thing, you must search, it was in the past 24 hours.
I'm not going into any pissing match. If it makes you feel better I'll declare "Oca rules." As for the car wash thing, you must search, it was in the past 24 hours.
Ok, then we are both in agreement..............."OCA rules".
jimnyc
07-23-2007, 05:12 AM
BTW nothing has been undermined, i've never been refuted on any claim i've ever made on this issue from western state economy collapse to there being no Americans sitting around waiting for these jobs to the work ethic of illegals.
Imagine that, OCA using "work ethics" and "illegals" in the same sentence! Sure is ethical of them to not pay taxes like everyone else! LOL
I'd probably work a little harder too if I didn't pay 1/3 of my money in taxes like the Americans do.
Psychoblues
07-23-2007, 05:24 AM
"Like the Americans do"?
Imagine that, OCA using "work ethics" and "illegals" in the same sentence! Sure is ethical of them to not pay taxes like everyone else! LOL
I'd probably work a little harder too if I didn't pay 1/3 of my money in taxes like the Americans do.
Your Swedishness is beginning to show most explicitly, jimmy!!!!!!!!!!!!!
jimnyc
07-23-2007, 05:27 AM
"Like the Americans do"?
Your Swedishness is beginning to show most explicitly, jimmy!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, as in the "illegals" ARE NOT Americans. We all may not like and/or agree with our system, or paying high taxes, but it's currently the American way. The illegal way is to be, well, illegal, and bypass our laws.
diuretic
07-23-2007, 05:46 AM
"Like the Americans do"?
Your Swedishness is beginning to show most explicitly, jimmy!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Great social democrats don't ya know? :laugh2:
Psychoblues
07-23-2007, 05:48 AM
You're kidding, right?
Yes, as in the "illegals" ARE NOT Americans. We all may not like and/or agree with our system, or paying high taxes, but it's currently the American way. The illegal way is to be, well, illegal, and bypass our laws.
Was DUI the American way,,,,,, never mind. I don't think you would understand unless it was in your own favor. Dig it? I doubt it.
jimnyc
07-23-2007, 05:49 AM
You're kidding, right?
Was DUI the American way,,,,,, never mind. I don't think you would understand unless it was in your own favor. Dig it? I doubt it.
I dig everything you say, buddy! :)
Spit it out though, Psycho, are you siding with illegals and their great work ethics?
Psychoblues
07-23-2007, 06:01 AM
Now, why in hell did you have to go and throw that "social" word into the conversation, dr?
Great social democrats don't ya know? :laugh2:
Americans ain't exactly into the "social" thing or don't ya know?
diuretic
07-23-2007, 06:16 AM
Now, why in hell did you have to go and throw that "social" word into the conversation, dr?
Americans ain't exactly into the "social" thing or don't ya know?
Yep I know, the great individualists, but that's a given, it's deeply rooted in American culture and it won't change and heck not up to me to even begin to lecture another nation on how it should conduct itself and I won't. We all have our pathways, I'm not going to piss on America's path.
But I might do a bit of watering :salute:
Psychoblues
07-23-2007, 06:32 AM
Not at all, jimmy.
I dig everything you say, buddy! :)
Spit it out though, Psycho, are you siding with illegals and their great work ethics?
I spit it out the best I can. How are you confused?
remie
07-23-2007, 02:02 PM
I disagree on several fronts. I think Americans would take the jobs, ala my example of car wash. I also think the illegals could not work any more than they do, which is you worst fallacy, which I doubt you believe. It undermines all you've posted before.
I understand I am a day late getting in on this conversation but here is my take. I am totally against the illegals being here. I employ about a dozen Mexicans that are all here legally through a government program. They are here seasonally here nine months and home for three. Where I am going with this Kathianne is the reason I have to hire them, is that I have been unable to hire Americans to do the work. The job is manual labor, cutting grass, landscaping, painting and whatever else I need them to do. In order for me to get these legal Mexicans I have to advertise the jobs for a months in the local papers so Americans get first chance. In the ten years I have been doing this I have had one inquiry. I hired him, told him the start date and guess who didnt show up. It is maddening as hell. So indeed there are jobs that Americans wont take. Further, I would have to have 20 Americans to get the same amount of work done as I do with 12 Mexicans. Just a fact. I think that until the US stops with all the assistance to perfectly fit US citizens we will never get them to work no matter what the job or what the pay.
jimnyc
07-23-2007, 02:26 PM
I understand I am a day late getting in on this conversation but here is my take. I am totally against the illegals being here. I employ about a dozen Mexicans that are all here legally through a government program. They are here seasonally here nine months and home for three. Where I am going with this Kathianne is the reason I have to hire them, is that I have been unable to hire Americans to do the work. The job is manual labor, cutting grass, landscaping, painting and whatever else I need them to do. In order for me to get these legal Mexicans I have to advertise the jobs for a months in the local papers so Americans get first chance. In the ten years I have been doing this I have had one inquiry. I hired him, told him the start date and guess who didnt show up. It is maddening as hell. So indeed there are jobs that Americans wont take. Further, I would have to have 20 Americans to get the same amount of work done as I do with 12 Mexicans. Just a fact. I think that until the US stops with all the assistance to perfectly fit US citizens we will never get them to work no matter what the job or what the pay.
Are the wages/benefits offered comparable to other landscaping firms? And your competition, do they employ non-Americans as well? Just curious!
FWIW - I commend you for ensuring those you hire are doing so legally. I have no issue with that scenario whatsoever if others don't want the jobs.
I'm still not sold on the "I would have to have 20 Americans to get the same amount of work done as I do with 12 Mexicans". I worked at a huge industrial landscaping firm in NJ years ago. Each job we did took most of the day, if we were lucky we got 2 companies completed in a day. We were doing all aspects of landscaping for major companies in Southern NJ. While I was no prize, I wasn't lazy either. I earned my pay by working M-F from 8-5 with a short lunch break. We had a few Mexicans working that refused to get along with the rest and did their own little thing. They showed up together, just in a nick of time, as none of them had licenses. They all left at closing time too, whether the job was completed or not. We had 2 guys working there that were an hour early each day, worked late every night, and rarely utilized their breaks other than for a short drink than back to work. They also happened to be the only 2 salaried employees, meaning they weren't getting paid for the overtime. Not all Mexicans will be the best workers, and not all Americans will be the laziest. But ALL of the illegals will avoid paying their taxes like the rest of us.
remie
07-23-2007, 02:53 PM
Are the wages/benefits offered comparable to other landscaping firms? And your competition, do they employ non-Americans as well? Just curious!
FWIW - I commend you for ensuring those you hire are doing so legally. I have no issue with that scenario whatsoever if others don't want the jobs.
I'm still not sold on the "I would have to have 20 Americans to get the same amount of work done as I do with 12 Mexicans". I worked at a huge industrial landscaping firm in NJ years ago. Each job we did took most of the day, if we were lucky we got 2 companies completed in a day. We were doing all aspects of landscaping for major companies in Southern NJ. While I was no prize, I wasn't lazy either. I earned my pay by working M-F from 8-5 with a short lunch break. We had a few Mexicans working that refused to get along with the rest and did their own little thing. They showed up together, just in a nick of time, as none of them had licenses. They all left at closing time too, whether the job was completed or not. We had 2 guys working there that were an hour early each day, worked late every night, and rarely utilized their breaks other than for a short drink than back to work. They also happened to be the only 2 salaried employees, meaning they weren't getting paid for the overtime. Not all Mexicans will be the best workers, and not all Americans will be the laziest. But ALL of the illegals will avoid paying their taxes like the rest of us.
Actually it is a thoroughbred horse farm and our pay package is as good or better than any others. I tried to entice US citizens by making them full time status with all the benefits, (full health coverage for employee and family at no cost to them, life insurance, disability insurance, simple IRA, uniforms all at no cost to them) The salary isnt all that great but its pretty good for what they are asked to do, mainly show up and give me a days work. I should not generalize about Americans vs Mexicans and how much work they do but I get so frustrated trying to hire Americans and they just wont do it. All of the skilled positions are Americans and they are extremely good at what they do and are loyal employees .The Mexicans I have all return year after year and they do pay taxes and social security which they will never benefit from. I understand the reason they are here is to earn money but they all work extremely hard and never complain. I hate seeing all those wages going to Mexico but at this point I cant run my business without them.
I dig everything you say, buddy! :)
Spit it out though, Psycho, are you siding with illegals and their great work ethics?
Jimmy seriously, are you trying to say they don't have great work ethics and work their asses off? Are you smoking the chronic again?:laugh2:
Bush tried to make illegals legal and to collect taxes from them, you guys shot it down because lord knows what would you have to bitch about if the problem got solved.
jimnyc
07-23-2007, 03:00 PM
Jimmy seriously, are you trying to say they don't have great work ethics and work their asses off? Are you smoking the chronic again?:laugh2:
I don't give a rats ass how hard they work, THEY ARE ILLEGAL! I know of many drug dealers that are willing to work 20hr days too! And for every illegal who works hard there are 2 more who sit back and siphon off of our system.
jimnyc
07-23-2007, 03:01 PM
Bush tried to make illegals legal and to collect taxes from them, you guys shot it down because lord knows what would you have to bitch about if the problem got solved.
Maybe we don't believe in just going *poof* and allowing their crimes to go away. Let them leave, come back here legally, then pay their taxes.
jimnyc
07-23-2007, 03:04 PM
Actually it is a thoroughbred horse farm and our pay package is as good or better than any others. I tried to entice US citizens by making them full time status with all the benefits, (full health coverage for employee and family at no cost to them, life insurance, disability insurance, simple IRA, uniforms all at no cost to them) The salary isnt all that great but its pretty good for what they are asked to do, mainly show up and give me a days work. I should not generalize about Americans vs Mexicans and how much work they do but I get so frustrated trying to hire Americans and they just wont do it. All of the skilled positions are Americans and they are extremely good at what they do and are loyal employees .The Mexicans I have all return year after year and they do pay taxes and social security which they will never benefit from. I understand the reason they are here is to earn money but they all work extremely hard and never complain. I hate seeing all those wages going to Mexico but at this point I cant run my business without them.
Like I said, I have no problem with utilizing foreign workers when done legally. Sounds as if the locals are missing out on a decent boss offering a decent job. The benefits alone make it sound worthwhile for someone with a small family.
I don't give a rats ass how hard they work, THEY ARE ILLEGAL! I know of many drug dealers that are willing to work 20hr days too! And for every illegal who works hard there are 2 more who sit back and siphon off of our system.
The illegal thing is something you guys are just gonna have to compromise on or else its the status quo forever! In fact did you know that this congress has shelved all discussion on illegals until after the presidential elections? Yep, its true and if Dems win more seats in congress and the oval office it will make this bill you guys wouldn't compromise on look like a totally sweet deal compared to the one that will be put forward then.
Lets face it, legal or illegal they are here for good.
And where did you come up with the 1 for two hard working scenario? I believe it to be the exact opposite of what you claim.........you stupid fuck.:laugh2:
remie
07-23-2007, 03:11 PM
Like I said, I have no problem with utilizing foreign workers when done legally. Sounds as if the locals are missing out on a decent boss offering a decent job. The benefits alone make it sound worthwhile for someone with a small family.
And it costs very little to live here.
I would vote for putting a bounty on the illegals and then see how hard it is to round them up.
Maybe we don't believe in just going *poof* and allowing their crimes to go away. Let them leave, come back here legally, then pay their taxes.
Jimmy *sigh*, they aren't going to leave, the cow is already out of the barn in another state.
jimnyc
07-23-2007, 03:16 PM
The illegal thing is something you guys are just gonna have to compromise on or else its the status quo forever! In fact did you know that this congress has shelved all discussion on illegals until after the presidential elections? Yep, its true and if Dems win more seats in congress and the oval office it will make this bill you guys wouldn't compromise on look like a totally sweet deal compared to the one that will be put forward then.
Lets face it, legal or illegal they are here for good.
And where did you come up with the 1 for two hard working scenario? I believe it to be the exact opposite of what you claim.........you stupid fuck.:laugh2:
Do you think the illegals just come here all by themselves? MANY of them come here with families. MANY of these families do NOTHING. What about their housing? What about healthcare? What about drivers licenses? What about the abundance of crimes they commit? Who pays for all of this, Mike?
And again, since you didn't answer previously. We are a nation of laws and principles, and for good reason. What other laws are you willing to blindly look away from?
And just because our government fucks things up worse that doesn't mean I have to support it. There are many politicians who feel like I do, that they should be tossed out on their collective asses, and those are the ones who will get my support.
jimnyc
07-23-2007, 03:19 PM
Jimmy *sigh*, they aren't going to leave, the cow is already out of the barn in another state.
That's why I'll support those who will try to have them forcibly removed. They deserve NOTHING from our country other than a boot in their illegal asses and a one way pass out of our country.
What other laws are you willing to blindly look away from?
Jaywalking
Marijuana posession
Vigilante killings of pedophiles
Concealed weapons laws
Tax evasion
Hate crime laws
Speeding
Public alcohol consumption
Hunting bag limits
I got lots more where those came from Jimmy.
No problem with the families coming, they would have been legal and paying into the system too if Bush had been allowed to fix the problem.
That's why I'll support those who will try to have them forcibly removed. They deserve NOTHING from our country other than a boot in their illegal asses and a one way pass out of our country.
Oh there are many who could try but hell I currently every year TRY to get out of paying taxes but......its impossible.......just like deportation is impossible.
If they don't deserve nothing what about Americans who don't work and mooch off the system? Does simply being born on American soil yet producing nothing make them deserving?
Honestly i'd rather keep the illegals and deport every motherfucker on welfare, at least the illegals will work.
jimnyc
07-23-2007, 03:28 PM
Well, there's really nothing to debate here as it seems to be just a matter of opinion. More power to you if you condone illegal activity. I'll stand by my belief in upholding the current laws. Those I don't like, I'll make an effort to have them changed. But I'll be damned if I just look away blindly, and then pay for it out of my own pocket.
I'm out of this one, thanks to you guys for a decent discussion!
Well, there's really nothing to debate here as it seems to be just a matter of opinion. More power to you if you condone illegal activity. I'll stand by my belief in upholding the current laws. Those I don't like, I'll make an effort to have them changed. But I'll be damned if I just look away blindly, and then pay for it out of my own pocket.
I'm out of this one, thanks to you guys for a decent discussion!
You bastard! Your gonna be drinking natty light and eating gristle at the bbq!:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:
LiberalNation
07-23-2007, 05:22 PM
Like I said, I have no problem with utilizing foreign workers when done legally. Sounds as if the locals are missing out on a decent boss offering a decent job. The benefits alone make it sound worthwhile for someone with a small family.
Except shoveling horse shit isn't a job anybody would really want if others are availble where they can get the same. That's what is probably the case.
Except shoveling horse shit isn't a job anybody would really want if others are availble where they can get the same. That's what is probably the case.
What are you saying? That only illegals should shovel horseshit? Give me a break, during the depression all skin tone took all types of jobs. A very weak theory LN. So because it is a non desirable job...... illegals are ok.
:poke:
82Marine89
07-23-2007, 06:57 PM
Except shoveling horse shit isn't a job anybody would really want if others are availble where they can get the same. That's what is probably the case.
Like I said, you are nothing more than a modern day slave master.
Gaffer
07-23-2007, 09:05 PM
Americans just won't shovel horse shit for $2 an hour. That's difference.
remie
07-24-2007, 07:18 AM
Americans just won't shovel horse shit for $2 an hour. That's difference.
Excuse me. Who said anything about $2 an hour. I have folks working for me that make $75 K. Dont try to discuss something you know nothing about.
Excuse me. Who said anything about $2 an hour. I have folks working for me that make $75 K. Dont try to discuss something you know nothing about.
I'll shovel horse shit for $75K/year. Where do I sign up?
Gaffer
07-24-2007, 09:47 AM
Excuse me. Who said anything about $2 an hour. I have folks working for me that make $75 K. Dont try to discuss something you know nothing about.
Are they illegals? Would any of them work for $2 an hour? Based on how you talk here they must spend a lot of time shoveling your shit.
What makes you think I know nothing about the discussion.
Hagbard Celine
07-24-2007, 09:56 AM
Jaywalking
Marijuana posession
Vigilante killings of pedophiles
Concealed weapons laws
Tax evasion
Hate crime laws
Speeding
Public alcohol consumption
Hunting bag limits
I got lots more where those came from Jimmy.
No problem with the families coming, they would have been legal and paying into the system too if Bush had been allowed to fix the problem.
I can look the other way on all of these except hate crimes. That's serious shit.
remie
07-24-2007, 12:46 PM
Are they illegals? Would any of them work for $2 an hour? Based on how you talk here they must spend a lot of time shoveling your shit.
What makes you think I know nothing about the discussion.
Spend a few minutes to read the thread before you jump in with an opinion. Had you bothered to do so you would know they are not illegals.
Kathianne
07-24-2007, 01:22 PM
Spend a few minutes to read the thread before you jump in with an opinion. Had you bothered to do so you would know they are not illegals.
Remie, as someone said earlier, I respect you dealing within the laws. I also respect the workers, if they come and go as agreed to.
I don't know where you are located or how you could have trouble hiring Americans at $75k per year. Is that for 120 work week? J/K. I have a son with a degree, working for $15.50 per hour in a bank. He's working on returning for his MS in finance, so he has a chance of making the kind of money you are talking about. I know that he would jump at physical labor, that paid that kind of money.
My youngest did physical labor for a city two summers ago, that paid $12.50 per hour, which was considered excellent by him. It involved moving torn up cement and laying blacktop, I know he'd rather do landscaping than that. His cousin made $17 for the same city, but literally meant 'shoveling shit', for public works. He got that job because it was his 2nd summer.
remie
07-24-2007, 01:37 PM
Remie, as someone said earlier, I respect you dealing within the laws. I also respect the workers, if they come and go as agreed to.
I don't know where you are located or how you could have trouble hiring Americans at $75k per year. Is that for 120 work week? J/K. I have a son with a degree, working for $15.50 per hour in a bank. He's working on returning for his MS in finance, so he has a chance of making the kind of money you are talking about. I know that he would jump at physical labor, that paid that kind of money.
My youngest did physical labor for a city two summers ago, that paid $12.50 per hour, which was considered excellent by him. It involved moving torn up cement and laying blacktop, I know he'd rather do landscaping than that. His cousin made $17 for the same city, but literally meant 'shoveling shit', for public works. He got that job because it was his 2nd summer.
Kathianne as you may well guess not every job here pays that kind of money. One of the positions I speak of is a department head without a college degree but is very good at what he does and no he works a 40 hr week just like everyone else unless there is an emergency. We pay people for what they know and how it will affect our business. I will say the lowest paid employees here make in the neighborhood of $10 hr plus all the benefits I described earlier. Average pay is in the neighborhood of $15-20 per hour.
Kathianne
07-24-2007, 02:02 PM
Kathianne as you may well guess not every job here pays that kind of money. One of the positions I speak of is a department head without a college degree but is very good at what he does and no he works a 40 hr week just like everyone else unless there is an emergency. We pay people for what they know and how it will affect our business. I will say the lowest paid employees here make in the neighborhood of $10 hr plus all the benefits I described earlier. Average pay is in the neighborhood of $15-20 per hour.
I was pretty sure the guys cutting grass were not making $75k. Serious question, those that are being hired under the program by you, what are they making, that Americans will not do for that kind of $$$?
remie
07-24-2007, 02:13 PM
I was pretty sure the guys cutting grass were not making $75k. Serious question, those that are being hired under the program by you, what are they making, that Americans will not do for that kind of $$$?
They make $12 /hour, they get free housing and utilities and we furnish them transportation, and uniforms. Oh and while not required, we buy them a plane ticket home at the end of their time here. Since they are not full time employees they are not eligable for health insurance, life and disability or simple IRA. If we were able to find Americans to do the job, they would be made full time with all the other benefits. Thats what is so frustrating.
Gaffer
07-24-2007, 02:19 PM
Spend a few minutes to read the thread before you jump in with an opinion. Had you bothered to do so you would know they are not illegals.
It's a thread about illegals working here. I was responding to what someone else had posted.
As for your workers. I asked before, are they illegals? Is your company paying illegals that kind of money and benefits? The simple fact is, illegals do work Americans won't do because Americans want a living wage for their work.
I will jump into the thread at any point I wish too. If you don't like my opinion, ignore me. :finger3:
Kathianne
07-24-2007, 02:20 PM
They make $12 /hour, they get free housing and utilities and we furnish them transportation, and uniforms. Oh and while not required, we buy them a plane ticket home at the end of their time here. Since they are not full time employees they are not eligable for health insurance, life and disability or simple IRA. If we were able to find Americans to do the job, they would be made full time with all the other benefits. Thats what is so frustrating.
I must admit surprise. I know that you couldn't hire most 16 year olds, the work would be too strenuous, but college kids? I know my sons would jump at it when they were looking. Yes, they would work their butts off, they do where they are.
remie
07-24-2007, 02:28 PM
I must admit surprise. I know that you couldn't hire most 16 year olds, the work would be too strenuous, but college kids? I know my sons would jump at it when they were looking. Yes, they would work their butts off, they do where they are.
Well I guess I have chalked it up to being in an agricultural area. The young men that will do that kind of work are on family farms and as much as it pains me to say it, the others dont want to work that hard.
Kathianne
07-24-2007, 02:36 PM
Well I guess I have chalked it up to being in an agricultural area. The young men that will do that kind of work are on family farms and as much as it pains me to say it, the others dont want to work that hard.
Rhemie are you in CA? My youngest seriously considered de-tasseling, but it was paying only $10.50, when he could make more for the city. We're in the plains.
Sir Evil
07-24-2007, 03:00 PM
Illegal schmegal, if someone busts their ass and gives 100% I don't give two shits about their residence status. I don't owe no allegiance to anybody else in this country especially the labor unions and/or the American worker, I owe allegiance to myself and my family and the economic benefits of cheap labor and the prices that it keeps down is a big benefit to us.
You want them to go? Outwork them, prove that the American worker is a better value at the higher wage but i'll tell ya if the auto industry, where the Japs have been killing us for years is any indication then fugghedaboutit.
Sounds to me like Americans are afraid of a little competition in the jobplace.
What a typical greek, bending over to take it in the ass. Illegals and work ethic? what a dumb bastard argument that is. Of course those fuckers got a good work ethic, they have to support the other 11 tenants in their 1 bedroom apartments. American have less a work ethic? Sure when some sap like yourself employs an illegal to do a job for less money so you can take the almighty dollar, and pay it to that self serving allegiance at the end of the day.
Illegals are called illegals for a reason you backward ass shit taco! Those leeching off unemployement and such would not be so abundant without those illegals absorbing the lesser jobs at lesser pays.
Bush tried to fix it? Damn, heard that reply until it was beat to death. Bush is trying to fight terrorism too so sure let the illegals pile in, and lets figure out the mexican from the middle easterns, hell why not put up welcome sign at all borders to welcome them in while we're at it. Save a buck now so later any illegal can enter the country at freewill, nice fucking argument you grape leaf eating unamerican green card holding sack of dookie!!! You best prepare one kick ass gyro at this bbq or I'll be certain to hold you in the same praise as the terrorists. :fu:
:laugh2:
What a typical greek, bending over to take it in the ass. Illegals and work ethic? what a dumb bastard argument that is. Of course those fuckers got a good work ethic, they have to support the other 11 tenants in their 1 bedroom apartments. American have less a work ethic? Sure when some sap like yourself employs an illegal to do a job for less money so you can take the almighty dollar, and pay it to that self serving allegiance at the end of the day.
Illegals are called illegals for a reason you backward ass shit taco! Those leeching off unemployement and such would not be so abundant without those illegals absorbing the lesser jobs at lesser pays.
Bush tried to fix it? Damn, heard that reply until it was beat to death. Bush is trying to fight terrorism too so sure let the illegals pile in, and lets figure out the mexican from the middle easterns, hell why not put up welcome sign at all borders to welcome them in while we're at it. Save a buck now so later any illegal can enter the country at freewill, nice fucking argument you grape leaf eating unamerican green card holding sack of dookie!!! You best prepare one kick ass gyro at this bbq or I'll be certain to hold you in the same praise as the terrorists. :fu:
:laugh2:
After that pile of drivel you and Jimmy better get prepared for alpo soup with basil.:laugh2:
Bush tried to fix every problem you guys bitch about.
jimnyc
07-24-2007, 04:02 PM
Bush tried to fix every problem you guys bitch about.
Well then, that makes everything different. Can you please link me to where he stated he would toss out those who entered our country illegally and abused our system, costing the rest of us?
Thanks!
Well then, that makes everything different. Can you please link me to where he stated he would toss out those who entered our country illegally and abused our system, costing the rest of us?
Thanks!
Well Christ he can't make the impossible possible, why don't you ask him to predict the winning powerball numbers for ya while you are at it?
BTW i'm having the bbq catered, all Latinos, not sure if they are illegal or not.:laugh2::laugh2:
jimnyc
07-24-2007, 04:28 PM
Well Christ he can't make the impossible possible, why don't you ask him to predict the winning powerball numbers for ya while you are at it?
BTW i'm having the bbq catered, all Latinos, not sure if they are illegal or not.:laugh2::laugh2:
It's possible alright, it's just a very long an expensive project, but one that's necessary to save our country from infiltration. I know you would rather save a few dollars and that's the important thing to you but I'm willing to pay more to get rid of the 'problems'. Surely if we can spend billions upon billions to help other countries, we can spend some money protecting our own and strengthening our borders.
Would you seriously hire illegals, for any work?
Kathianne
07-24-2007, 04:39 PM
Well then, that makes everything different. Can you please link me to where he stated he would toss out those who entered our country illegally and abused our system, costing the rest of us?
Thanks!
Shit Jim, I'd be ecstatic if he would say, "We shouldn't prosecute those that have come for work and salaries unavailable in their countries. At the same time, we recognize that we have many that would fill the jobs, legally. Thus, we will from X date on, require that employers be able to prove that their employees are legal workers."
Notice this does not say anything about deportation.
It's possible alright, it's just a very long an expensive project, but one that's necessary to save our country from infiltration. I know you would rather save a few dollars and that's the important thing to you but I'm willing to pay more to get rid of the 'problems'. Surely if we can spend billions upon billions to help other countries, we can spend some money protecting our own and strengthening our borders.
Would you seriously hire illegals, for any work?
Its just not an important topic, America has many more important issues that need funding and tending to.
Yeah I might hire an illegal or two for some odd jobs under the table type stuff, but you know I wouldn't know if they were illegal or not because I wouldn't ask, i'm a best man for the job type and residency status don't have no bearing on that.
jimnyc
07-24-2007, 06:35 PM
Its just not an important topic, America has many more important issues that need funding and tending to.
Yeah I might hire an illegal or two for some odd jobs under the table type stuff, but you know I wouldn't know if they were illegal or not because I wouldn't ask, i'm a best man for the job type and residency status don't have no bearing on that.
Not sure how you could do so without knowing. Wouldn't you have to pay taxes for any services provided? And in turn, the person making money would pay taxes as well. Never figured you for the type to commit crimes to save money, and perpetuate the problem even further. So as long as you save a few bucks, to hell go the laws?
Shit Jim, I'd be ecstatic if he would say, "We shouldn't prosecute those that have come for work and salaries unavailable in their countries. At the same time, we recognize that we have many that would fill the jobs, legally. Thus, we will from X date on, require that employers be able to prove that their employees are legal workers."
Notice this does not say anything about deportation.
Kath, there is simply nobody lining up to fill the jobs that illegals currently, you need to stop with the twenty yr old examples from the car wash and get into the 21st century. I'm not saying that every American is lazy and has zero work ethic but I am saying that there are simply more positions open than there are American willing to work them, thats a fact.
And if by all accounts, and even Pale agrees on this, that Mexicans, illegal or not, have a stronger work ethic and have more of an aptitude towards laborious work, then why in the hell should American business be shut off from this resource? Ok, ok, they came in illegally, its too damn late to do anything about that now, so why not legalize them and utilize their capabilities while at the same time adding to the tax base? What the hell is wrong with that? Oh but wait, i'm gonna get the assimilation thingy, thats bunk because in a generation or two the offspring will intermarry with other races and not even speak their mother tongue, its been that way with every wave of immigrants from every nation. Hell my father can hardly speak rudimentary English but he's as American as you and I, more so........he's a Yankees fan.
Not sure how you could do so without knowing. Wouldn't you have to pay taxes for any services provided? And in turn, the person making money would pay taxes as well. Never figured you for the type to commit crimes to save money, and perpetuate the problem even further. So as long as you save a few bucks, to hell go the laws?
Guess you never paid a kid twenty bucks to mow a lawn Jimmy? If you did did you take taxes out of that twenty bucks?:laugh2:
Come on now! You can't bullshit a bullshitter!
BTW fuck taxes, i'll get out of paying taxes anyway I can, taxes are nothing more than the government stealing money out of your wallet, money you earned not them.
jimnyc
07-24-2007, 06:59 PM
Guess you never paid a kid twenty bucks to mow a lawn Jimmy? If you did did you take taxes out of that twenty bucks?:laugh2:
Come on now! You can't bullshit a bullshitter!
BTW fuck taxes, i'll get out of paying taxes anyway I can, taxes are nothing more than the government stealing money out of your wallet, money you earned not them.
Sure, compare a kid mowing a lawn occasionally to an illegal wetback! LOL
You keep committing the crimes and increasing the illegal immigrant problem. That's your choice. I think I'll stick to my desire to toss out the leeches like the majority of our country wants. I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep if a nuke hit an area full of illegals and left them like overcooked cockroaches.
Sir Evil
07-24-2007, 07:05 PM
Its just not an important topic, America has many more important issues that need funding and tending to.
Yeah I might hire an illegal or two for some odd jobs under the table type stuff, but you know I wouldn't know if they were illegal or not because I wouldn't ask, i'm a best man for the job type and residency status don't have no bearing on that.
Yep, the same guy who would send knowingly his money to the terrorist orginizations through some sort of a transaction so long as it was a savings in his own pocket. That should be the new moniker under the taco, "Screw the country, Save a dollar" After awhile it will more than likely read "Terrorists for Labor! I saved a dollar So can you"
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1171/nurpleamericajb7.gif
Sure, compare a kid mowing a lawn occasionally to an illegal wetback! LOL
You keep committing the crimes and increasing the illegal immigrant problem. That's your choice. I think I'll stick to my desire to toss out the leeches like the majority of our country wants. I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep if a nuke hit an area full of illegals and left them like overcooked cockroaches.
Jimmy you dumb sumbitch! You noticed how I said "odd" jobs, eh? I wouldn't hire one to work with me regular, if I needed lets say a fence repaired or something along those lines well then I might get me a Mexican, legal or not, and pay him cash. As for regular work, hell no! Hell I won't hire anyone, i'm too damn greedy with the dollars!
Yep, the same guy who would send knowingly his money to the terrorist orginizations through some sort of a transaction so long as it was a savings in his own pocket. That should be the new moniker under the taco, "Screw the country, Save a dollar" After awhile it will more than likely read "Terrorists for Labor! I saved a dollar So can you"
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1171/nurpleamericajb7.gif
Quit drinking and babbling about terrorists, it has zero to do with this subject you dumb fucking monkey!
glockmail
07-24-2007, 07:10 PM
Well Christ he can't make the impossible possible, why don't you ask him to predict the winning powerball numbers for ya while you are at it?
BTW i'm having the bbq catered, all Latinos, not sure if they are illegal or not.:laugh2::laugh2:
How 'bout some hot mexican chics in a side tent? :poke:
Sir Evil
07-24-2007, 07:19 PM
Quit drinking and babbling about terrorists, it has zero to do with this subject you dumb fucking monkey!
:laugh:
So while you are ready to open the borders to illegals you can safely say that no terrorists could possibly slip in the mainstream posing as mexican for instance?
Hell look at you, you slipped in and blended in just fine looking like a fine upstanding all american white boy when in reality you are nothing more then the outcast of a metting between the whops & the tribal africans. :lol:
Seriously, you let one roach in legally you become infested, and no stopping a flow of terrorsist when they can't stop a handful now.
jimnyc
07-24-2007, 07:20 PM
Jimmy you dumb sumbitch! You noticed how I said "odd" jobs, eh? I wouldn't hire one to work with me regular, if I needed lets say a fence repaired or something along those lines well then I might get me a Mexican, legal or not, and pay him cash. As for regular work, hell no! Hell I won't hire anyone, i'm too damn greedy with the dollars!
I wouldn't hire them to do any odd jobs either, that's just helping them stick around. The best I could offer these scumbags is to 'maybe' piss on them if they were on fire. If the businesses would stop committing crimes and hiring illegals, and our government stopped assisting them with taxpayer money, they would eventually crawl back to where they came from. Probably after they ravage the towns they live in via crime first though, unfortunately.
:laugh:
So while you are ready to open the borders to illegals you can safely say that no terrorists could possibly slip in the mainstream posing as mexican for instance?
Hell look at you, you slipped in and blended in just fine looking like a fine upstanding all american white boy when in reality you are nothing more then the outcast of a metting between the whops & the tribal africans. :lol:
Seriously, you let one roach in legally you become infested, and no stopping a flow of terrorsist when they can't stop a handful now.
You two dumbfucks have turned this into an "OCA the stud" supports open borders bullshit fest. Look at all my discussions on this, my position is seal the border first and then grant amnesty to all non-felon illegals already in country since deportation will never ever happen as long as Repubs and Demos are in power and as long as it is not financially or logistically possible.
I wouldn't hire them to do any odd jobs either, that's just helping them stick around. The best I could offer these scumbags is to 'maybe' piss on them if they were on fire. If the businesses would stop committing crimes and hiring illegals, and our government stopped assisting them with taxpayer money, they would eventually crawl back to where they came from. Probably after they ravage the towns they live in via crime first though, unfortunately.
Why are they scumbags Jimmy?
glockmail
07-24-2007, 08:02 PM
You two dumbfucks have turned this into an "OCA the stud" supports open borders bullshit fest. Look at all my discussions on this, my position is seal the border first and then grant amnesty to all non-felon illegals already in country since deportation will never ever happen as long as Repubs and Demos are in power and as long as it is not financially or logistically possible. I wouldn't grant amnesty until they spent ten years building the border wall or other type work, learned english and american culture, stayed out of jail for 20 years and held jobs of increasing responsibility during that entire time. And of course no muzzies.
jimnyc
07-24-2007, 08:04 PM
Why are they scumbags Jimmy?
I believe I've stated this about 27x in this thread alone but I'll be happy to do so one more time.
They are ILLEGAL and they siphon our system and cost ME money to support them.
jimnyc
07-24-2007, 08:06 PM
You two dumbfucks have turned this into an "OCA the stud" supports open borders bullshit fest. Look at all my discussions on this, my position is seal the border first and then grant amnesty to all non-felon illegals already in country since deportation will never ever happen as long as Repubs and Demos are in power and as long as it is not financially or logistically possible.
Why do you want to make it personal, Mike?
And my position is to seal the border, and toss out all of the illegals. I see no reason whatsoever to just snap a finger and forgive them for their crimes and the money they cost the taxpayers.
I believe I've stated this about 27x in this thread alone but I'll be happy to do so one more time.
They are ILLEGAL and they siphon our system and cost ME money to support them.
Correct amundo. They are a drain, not a resource.
Why do you want to make it personal, Mike?
And my position is to seal the border, and toss out all of the illegals. I see no reason whatsoever to just snap a finger and forgive them for their crimes and the money they cost the taxpayers.
Jimmy quit being so fucking sensitive you big dope! You know I say dumbfuck with affection!
I believe I've stated this about 27x in this thread alone but I'll be happy to do so one more time.
They are ILLEGAL and they siphon our system and cost ME money to support them.
What money, you've seen your money go directly to them? How about American welfare cheats who siphon off taxpayer money and contribute nothing, Can I boot them too?
What money, you've seen your money go directly to them? How about American welfare cheats who siphon off taxpayer money and contribute nothing, Can I boot them too?
How bout kick out the illegals and put those folks to work
glockmail
07-24-2007, 08:25 PM
How bout kick out the illegals and put those folks to work Their sorry asses are incapable of working. Let's deport them and keep the hard working mexicans.
How bout kick out the illegals and put those folks to work
I could get behind that.
Their sorry asses are incapable of working. Let's deport them and keep the hard working mexicans.
I've been saying that all along.
glockmail
07-24-2007, 08:27 PM
I could get behind that.
I've been saying that all along.
Make up your sorry ass greek mind. :laugh2:
jimnyc
07-24-2007, 08:43 PM
What money, you've seen your money go directly to them? How about American welfare cheats who siphon off taxpayer money and contribute nothing, Can I boot them too?
Jesus, do you actually read what I write? I hate repeating myself!
Who do you think pays for the illegals? Their crimes? Their assistance? Their benefit programs? When they don't pay their healthcare bills?
That's right, us taxpaying citizens.
I could get behind that.
Sounds like a plan. I just wonder if any politician has the guts to get it going.
Jesus, do you actually read what I write? I hate repeating myself!
Who do you think pays for the illegals? Their crimes? Their assistance? Their benefit programs? When they don't pay their healthcare bills?
That's right, us taxpaying citizens.
Pays for their crimes lol! What crimes do you pay for Jimmy? They work, they don't receive welfare unlike many Americans.
Healthcare, ok i'll grant you that one............Bush tried to fix that.
Make up your sorry ass greek mind. :laugh2:
Either one would do.......I say you either work or get the fuck out.
jimnyc
07-24-2007, 10:00 PM
Pays for their crimes lol! What crimes do you pay for Jimmy? They work, they don't receive welfare unlike many Americans.
Healthcare, ok i'll grant you that one............Bush tried to fix that.
C'mon, Mike, stop acting dense. Who do you think pays to house the illegals that are imprisoned? Who do you think pays for all the court proceedings? The Mexicans maybe? Yeah right! All of us taxpayers pay for these scumbags.
And sure, they work, ILLEGALLY, and then don't pay a dime in taxes.
And I couldn't care less if Bush tried to forgive thousands upon thousands of cockroaches for their crimes. And apparently I'm not the only one who was against that ridiculous plan.
Pale Rider
07-24-2007, 11:57 PM
They make $12 /hour, they get free housing and utilities and we furnish them transportation, and uniforms. Oh and while not required, we buy them a plane ticket home at the end of their time here. Since they are not full time employees they are not eligable for health insurance, life and disability or simple IRA. If we were able to find Americans to do the job, they would be made full time with all the other benefits. Thats what is so frustrating.
Maybe the words out that what you have there is a taco pit, and no Americans are welcome... ever think of that? Kick the fucking illegals down the damn road where they belong and OBEY THE LAW, and maybe then you'll have some Americans show up for work.
You can NOT convince me that MEXICANS are the ONLY PEOPLE ON EARTH that are willing to do hard jobs. I worked physical jobs ALL MY LIFE... construction, farm hand, rail road, my own business... don't tell me there aren't Americans that WON'T do what the fucking ILLEGALS will do. BULLSHIT!!!
You've got to GET RID OF THE ILLEGALS, then others will show up. The fucking illegals are STEALING JOBS is what's happening. Now tell me I'm wrong.
Pale Rider
07-25-2007, 12:02 AM
Its just not an important topic, America has many more important issues that need funding and tending to.
YOU - HAVE - GOT - TO - BE - JOKING - - - :eek: The largest "ILLEGAL" land invasion from one country into another in HISTORY OF THE WORLD is UNIMPORTANT???!!!
Not to this "American." It is - THE - most important topic. And it is to MILLIONS of other Americans as well.
Just where does your loyalty lay? With Greece, or America? If you answer the later, then I can't for the life of me understand why you feel the way you do. If you say Greece, then I guess I understand why you think the way you do. Fuck America. It's secondary to you. If you don't like it here, you can always skip on back to Greece.
Sounds like a plan. I just wonder if any politician has the guts to get it going.
I thought about this, we don't politicians to get this started, we the people can do this!
Pale Rider
07-25-2007, 12:11 AM
Kath, there is simply nobody lining up to fill the jobs that illegals currently, you need to stop with the twenty yr old examples from the car wash and get into the 21st century. I'm not saying that every American is lazy and has zero work ethic but I am saying that there are simply more positions open than there are American willing to work them, thats a fact.
I wouldn't say that's a fact at all. I think the illegals are stealing jobs, and they are. That, is a fact.
And if by all accounts, and even Pale agrees on this, that Mexicans, illegal or not, have a stronger work ethic and have more of an aptitude towards laborious work, then why in the hell should American business be shut off from this resource?
But I don't agree with that. I'm an American, and can tell you that when I was younger, I could work damn near anybody into the dirt, ANYBODY. And I wasn't alone. There was plenty of people like me, and there still is. The illegals are crowding people out of these jobs, and it's wrong.
Pale Rider
07-25-2007, 12:16 AM
You two dumbfucks have turned this into an "OCA the stud" supports open borders bullshit fest. Look at all my discussions on this, my position is seal the border first and then grant amnesty to all non-felon illegals already in country since deportation will never ever happen as long as Repubs and Demos are in power and as long as it is not financially or logistically possible.
Wait until Tancredo gets elected President. You WILL see deportations. I guarantee it. To the absolute delight, and agreement, of the vast majority of Americans.
YOU - HAVE - GOT - TO - BE - JOKING - - - :eek: The largest "ILLEGAL" land invasion from one country into another in HISTORY OF THE WORLD is UNIMPORTANT???!!!
Not to this "American." It is - THE - most important topic. And it is to MILLIONS of other Americans as well.
Just where does your loyalty lay? With Greece, or America? If you answer the later, then I can't for the life of me understand why you feel the way you do. If you say Greece, then I guess I understand why you think the way you do. Fuck America. It's secondary to you. If you don't like it here, you can always skip on back to Greece.
Just might do that brother one of these days, America is becoming the land of the baby killers and where queers can get married. Not sure its a proper place for children anymore.
Wait until Tancredo gets elected President. You WILL see deportations. I guarantee it. To the absolute delight, and agreement, of the vast majority of Americans.
Pale I know you like this guy and I admire your passion, really I do but he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell.
remie
07-25-2007, 07:25 AM
Maybe the words out that what you have there is a taco pit, and no Americans are welcome... ever think of that? Kick the fucking illegals down the damn road where they belong and OBEY THE LAW, and maybe then you'll have some Americans show up for work.
You can NOT convince me that MEXICANS are the ONLY PEOPLE ON EARTH that are willing to do hard jobs. I worked physical jobs ALL MY LIFE... construction, farm hand, rail road, my own business... don't tell me there aren't Americans that WON'T do what the fucking ILLEGALS will do. BULLSHIT!!!
You've got to GET RID OF THE ILLEGALS, then others will show up. The fucking illegals are STEALING JOBS is what's happening. Now tell me I'm wrong.
PR please read what I posted. Everyone islegal. Im sorry I cant convince you that I have had the same job openings for going on 25 years and would prefer to have US citizens do them but they fucking wont. Ive tried. And please dont lecture me about working physical jobs...I have done the same so I know a little bit about hard labor. What I am telling you is that Americans absolutely have first crack at these jobs and they will not do them period. Check out my very first post in this thread where I said I am against illegals being here period
glockmail
07-25-2007, 07:48 AM
Pale I know you like this guy and I admire your passion, really I do but he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell.Yup. We have to face reality.
jimnyc
07-25-2007, 08:27 AM
I thought I would share an article I read about "Americans won't do the jobs"
Prior to the disastrous immigration act of 1965, there was very little immigration. Between 1925 and 1965, immigration levels were so low the number of immigrants in the country actually declined. In fact, there was even a period of net emigration out of the United States.
Yet, during that time, Americans invented computers, had a healthy labor movement, initiated the space program that put men on the moon, made great strides in civil rights and environmental legislation, built the largest economy the world has ever seen, and successfully prosecuted WWII against two great powers on two fronts simultaneously. We also got our grass cut, our meat packed. Our children were being watched, and our houses were being cleaned.
The idea that somehow we suddenly can't run a country without an endless supply of foreigners is absurd.
The falsehood repeated endlessly, that immigrants do the jobs Americans won't, is really tantamount to something like this:
The owner of the local McDonald's puts a sign in the window that says: "Dishwasher wanted. $1.00 / hour." He leaves the sign in the window for a month, but no one comes in to apply for the dishwashing job. "See?" the McDonald's owner might say, "Dishwashing is a job Americans won't do. But there are a billion people in China who work for less than a dollar per hour. I need to import some cheap workers from China (or Bangladesh or Mexico)."
Then he or she will import the worker, undercut American wages, and, as a bonus, stick the taxpayer with the cost of the new worker's health care, of educating his children, and so on.
The next time Tamar Jacoby tells you "our" economy "depends" on immigrant labor, tell her to buzz off, liar: a country should do its own work.
http://projectusa.org/arguments/jobs_Americans_wont_do.php?code=7
Pale Rider
07-25-2007, 10:19 AM
Pale I know you like this guy and I admire your passion, really I do but he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell.
We can agree to disagree, because I think he actually does have a decent chance. With so many millions of Americans just as passionate about the wetbacks as I am, the man promising to get rid of them is going to make the greatest strides towards President. Just watch. You'll see.
Pale Rider
07-25-2007, 10:25 AM
PR please read what I posted.
What the fuck you think I did.
Everyone islegal. Im sorry I cant convince you that I have had the same job openings for going on 25 years and would prefer to have US citizens do them but they fucking wont. Ive tried.
I don't believe it. You'll have to come up with some sort of proof. You're a little new here to just take your word for it.
And please dont lecture me about working physical jobs...I have done the same so I know a little bit about hard labor.
Do you need a little lesson on how this board works? Let me give you a clue... "I will say WHAT I want, WHEN I want, to WHOM I want. If you don't like it, cherry, then too damn bad. Move on. I don't need YOU to come here and discount what I said as just a lecture. It was FACT. I worked hard, and so did hundreds of thousands of other young Americans, BEFORE the fucking wetbacks took our jobs.
What I am telling you is that Americans absolutely have first crack at these jobs and they will not do them period. Check out my very first post in this thread where I said I am against illegals being here period
Bullshit. Just pure bullshit. Prove it.
Pale Rider
07-25-2007, 10:31 AM
I thought I would share an article I read about "Americans won't do the jobs"
Prior to the disastrous immigration act of 1965, there was very little immigration. Between 1925 and 1965, immigration levels were so low the number of immigrants in the country actually declined. In fact, there was even a period of net emigration out of the United States.
Yet, during that time, Americans invented computers, had a healthy labor movement, initiated the space program that put men on the moon, made great strides in civil rights and environmental legislation, built the largest economy the world has ever seen, and successfully prosecuted WWII against two great powers on two fronts simultaneously. We also got our grass cut, our meat packed. Our children were being watched, and our houses were being cleaned.
The idea that somehow we suddenly can't run a country without an endless supply of foreigners is absurd.
The falsehood repeated endlessly, that immigrants do the jobs Americans won't, is really tantamount to something like this:
The owner of the local McDonald's puts a sign in the window that says: "Dishwasher wanted. $1.00 / hour." He leaves the sign in the window for a month, but no one comes in to apply for the dishwashing job. "See?" the McDonald's owner might say, "Dishwashing is a job Americans won't do. But there are a billion people in China who work for less than a dollar per hour. I need to import some cheap workers from China (or Bangladesh or Mexico)."
Then he or she will import the worker, undercut American wages, and, as a bonus, stick the taxpayer with the cost of the new worker's health care, of educating his children, and so on.
The next time Tamar Jacoby tells you "our" economy "depends" on immigrant labor, tell her to buzz off, liar: a country should do its own work.
http://projectusa.org/arguments/jobs_Americans_wont_do.php?code=7
You fuckin' A brother....
You must spread some reputation around before giving it to jimnyc again.
Monkeybone
07-25-2007, 10:31 AM
The owner of the local McDonald's puts a sign in the window that says: "Dishwasher wanted. $1.00 / hour." He leaves the sign in the window for a month, but no one comes in to apply for the dishwashing job. "See?" the McDonald's owner might say, "Dishwashing is a job Americans won't do. But there are a billion people in China who work for less than a dollar per hour. I need to import some cheap workers from China (or Bangladesh or Mexico)."
apparently Mexicans won't either. that is a retarded way to make an arguement. if that is a substantial arguement, PETA should offer ppl rancid meat and when no one takes it go " See! ppl don't like to eat meat!" or a sign that says frre cake with a kick to the groin! see no one likes cake!...except those wierdos in the leather....
have you noticed where some of these "Only Mexicans will do the work' places are? seems to me like it is mostly the coast states, like Cali and such? or am i just being ignorant?
Pale Rider
07-25-2007, 10:31 AM
Yup. We have to face reality.
With the election almost a year a half away, I see no such reality.
glockmail
07-25-2007, 01:04 PM
With the election almost a year a half away, I see no such reality. There is plenty of time. I beleive its a good thing that a guy like T is in it and garnering support. I'd probably vote for him in the primary. Heck I've put a lot of real support- cash- to some very conservative candidtaes in the past even though I knew that they had little chance. But I'm also a realist and when the general election comes I will plan on voting for the most conservtive candidate still standing. If that's T, great, but if its Rudy vs any of the Democrats that they are fielding that it means Rudy. And I don't like Rudy.
I am for the first time in my USMB/DP history going to bow out of further discussion on illegals, i'm fighting with people whom I like and it just makes me uneasy.
They stay or they go, my life doesn't change 1 iota.
glockmail
07-25-2007, 03:01 PM
I am for the first time in my USMB/DP history going to bow out of further discussion on illegals, i'm fighting with people whom I like and it just makes me uneasy.
They stay or they go, my life doesn't change 1 iota. This is exactly the time that you need to stay, to find common ground. I understnad that you think that you can simply watch the whole country go to pot tyem move to Greece, but to most of, this is our country and we'll fight for it. That's called patriotism.
I'm a practical guy on this issue and realize that we can't just deport 12 million people. Even if we had the resources the effect on the recieving countries would be such that they'd be like huge refugee camps, and we'd be taking he blame deserved or not. So we'd end up spending all sorts of cash to have people live in squalor and not work. Besides the political will for that ain't in the majority.
That's why I think we need to shut down the borders right now. Require all employers to verify the leaglity of their workers and fine those who don't comply. Set up guv'mint work camps at the borders to build the wall, and give the illegals the option of working in the camps or taking their chances in the private sector. Then start deportation at a reasonable rate, say 250,000/ year, 500,000, or whatever.
I've been typically consistent saying all along that peope are our most important resource. These illegals working at the camps should get education at night to learn english, US history, and a trade. They get health care for themselves and family, a roof and 3 squares. They must pay for this out of their wages. No SS taxes and no benefits until they become citizens. After, say, 5 years of working off their debt to society, passing all the exams and crap then they can apply for citizenship, at the end of the line from everyone else. In the meantime they can work in the camps or get a visa to go off into the private sector. If they are found doing anythin illegal at any time then they get immeadiate deportation.
jimnyc
07-25-2007, 03:56 PM
I am for the first time in my USMB/DP history going to bow out of further discussion on illegals, i'm fighting with people whom I like and it just makes me uneasy.
They stay or they go, my life doesn't change 1 iota.
I hear ya, brother. But remember, just because we are at opposite ends of the spectrum on this issue that doesn't mean we still aren't friends. I'd like to think we're capable of beating up one another on an issue and then return to other threads as if nothing happened.
It's like me an Jackass. He's a flaming homo, but I still went out for drinks with him and the gals and had a blast! :)
glockmail
07-25-2007, 04:24 PM
....
It's like me an Jackass. He's a flaming homo, but I still went out for drinks with him and the gals and had a blast! :) I suppose enough drinks, a thick enough rubber and plenty of KY a stretched-out bung-hole would feel the same as a tight clam. Don't think I could get past that hairy back, though. :poke:
jimnyc
07-25-2007, 04:29 PM
I suppose enough drinks, a thick enough rubber and plenty of KY a stretched-out bung-hole would feel the same as a tight clam. Don't think I could get past that hairy back, though. :poke:
There's not enough drinks in the entire universe that would ever allow that to happen! I'd cut off my little friend rather than subject him to that!
Abbey Marie
07-25-2007, 04:38 PM
There's not enough drinks in the entire universe that would ever allow that to happen! I'd cut off my little friend rather than subject him to that!
"There is nothing like a dame.
Nothing in the world.
There is nothing you can name,
That is anything like a dame"
-South Pacific
jimnyc
07-25-2007, 04:43 PM
"There is nothing like a dame.
Nothing in the world.
There is nothing you can name,
That is anything like a dame"
-South Pacific
Oh, how true!
I love women. And now if I can only find one to love me back!
glockmail
07-25-2007, 04:47 PM
There's not enough drinks in the entire universe that would ever allow that to happen! I'd cut off my little friend rather than subject him to that!
:lol:
True story:
A good buddy of mine finally got a date with this woman he'd been eyeing for about two years. This is one seriously beautiful woman- she looks like Miss America. She told him no several times but he kept at it. He finally gets a date with her and they hit it off well. After about their third or fourth date they both get real drunk and hit the bedroom. He can't get enough of this babe, and they make love over and over. He gets so tired and drunk that he slips it in the bung by mistake. Once he realizes what he's done, he pulls out and tries to pretend like nothing happened. Needless to say that was the end of the evening and they both washed up and went to sleep.
The next morning they don't say much to each other until he sheepishly asks her if what he thought happened really did, and she raises her eyebrows and slowly nods her head yes- doesn't say a word. He told her that he was damn sorry and it was a mistake and he doesn't do that shit and all- totally grovelling for about 5 minutes. She said that she doesn't do that either and then they both had a big laugh.
6 months later they got married and that was over ten years ago. :laugh2:
Pale Rider
07-25-2007, 05:35 PM
There is plenty of time. I beleive its a good thing that a guy like T is in it and garnering support. I'd probably vote for him in the primary. Heck I've put a lot of real support- cash- to some very conservative candidtaes in the past even though I knew that they had little chance. But I'm also a realist and when the general election comes I will plan on voting for the most conservtive candidate still standing. If that's T, great, but if its Rudy vs any of the Democrats that they are fielding that it means Rudy. And I don't like Rudy.
I've done this all my life gm... vote for a republican even if I wasn't happy with them, just to keep a dem out of office. Well, those days are over. I'm voting my conscience this year, and if Giuliani is the repub, I'll vote libertarian, or independent, or write someone in, I don't care. Thing is, I will vote for WHO I BELIEVE IN this time around, and every one to follow.
Pale Rider
07-25-2007, 05:40 PM
I am for the first time in my USMB/DP history going to bow out of further discussion on illegals, i'm fighting with people whom I like and it just makes me uneasy.
They stay or they go, my life doesn't change 1 iota.
Well son of a bitch brother. That's the last thing I'd want ya to do. Far as I'm concerned, I don't give a flyin' fuck HOW BAD we disagree on this, I still think you're a kick ass good mother fucker. Nothing is going to change that. Hell, it's just a forum.
Sooner or later I gotta get back out there to the east coast, to retake pictures of Gettysburg that my wife stool when we divorced. I may as well side trip to meet you fuckers, don't ya think?
glockmail
07-25-2007, 06:06 PM
I've done this all my life gm... vote for a republican even if I wasn't happy with them, just to keep a dem out of office. Well, those days are over. I'm voting my conscience this year, and if Giuliani is the repub, I'll vote libertarian, or independent, or write someone in, I don't care. Thing is, I will vote for WHO I BELIEVE IN this time around, and every one to follow.
If that attitude prevails among our kind, then we will se a defeat worse than 06. Hellow Democrat Executive and Congress. Goodbye SCOTUS.
Well son of a bitch brother. That's the last thing I'd want ya to do. Far as I'm concerned, I don't give a flyin' fuck HOW BAD we disagree on this, I still think you're a kick ass good mother fucker. Nothing is going to change that. Hell, it's just a forum.
Sooner or later I gotta get back out there to the east coast, to retake pictures of Gettysburg that my wife stool when we divorced. I may as well side trip to meet you fuckers, don't ya think?
Gettysburg is 20 minutes from my new house, 25 to the battlefield.
Sir Evil
07-25-2007, 08:05 PM
I am for the first time in my USMB/DP history going to bow out of further discussion on illegals, i'm fighting with people whom I like and it just makes me uneasy.
They stay or they go, my life doesn't change 1 iota.
No backbone! Damn, and Bush tried to fix it!!:laugh2:
glockmail
07-25-2007, 08:05 PM
Gettysburg is 20 minutes from my new house, 25 to the battlefield.
Good place to have a knock-down, drag out. :laugh2:
I am for the first time in my USMB/DP history going to bow out of further discussion on illegals, i'm fighting with people whom I like and it just makes me uneasy.
They stay or they go, my life doesn't change 1 iota.
Don't fight, join us :coffee:
Seriously, no need to back out. Let's keep the discussion intense and interesting, but cool at the same time. :cool:
If that attitude prevails among our kind, then we will se a defeat worse than 06. Hellow Democrat Executive and Congress. Goodbye SCOTUS.
Another topic, but had to say:
SCOTUS should not be political.
glockmail
07-25-2007, 08:14 PM
Another topic, but had to say:
SCOTUS should not be political. I don't see why not. The founders developed the current sytem of having the Prez make the appointments and it seems to have worke, albeit not perfectly. Its only been lately that the Democrats have fought every appointment. When Hillary is Prez and names 2 or 3 lesbians it will be interesting to see of the GOP has the balls that the Dems have shown.
I don't see why not. The founders developed the current sytem of having the Prez make the appointments and it seems to have worke, albeit not perfectly. Its only been lately that the Democrats have fought every appointment. When Hillary is Prez and names 2 or 3 lesbians it will be interesting to see of the GOP has the balls that the Dems have shown.
I think you made my point that it SCOTUS should not be political. If so, it weakens their branch of government and makes SCOTUS a mob ruling court if we follow it all the way through.
glockmail
07-25-2007, 08:37 PM
I think you made my point that it SCOTUS should not be political. If so, it weakens their branch of government and makes SCOTUS a mob ruling court if we follow it all the way through. OOps- I didn't mean to. :laugh2:
Seriously though I agree in principle that it should not be political. All SC judges should be strict constructionists and interpret the Constitution the way it was written. But in reality here comes the Democrats and progressives who care little about the Constitution and wish the US to be part of the EU. So politics is involved and there is no way around that.
Here in NC we have made popular elections for judges "non-partisan". In reality it is a ruse by the Democrats to prevent that dreaded D in front of theri name on the ballot- a clear indicator of being soft on crime. So in order to find out who the GOP judges are I have to log onto a special website.
Many of the little towns around here also do the same thing for local elections. So there is very little information available for these blokes, except for some yard signs and what you glean from te local liberal rag. And there is no website to go and at least find out their affiliation.
glockmail;94488]OOps- I didn't mean to. :laugh2:
:cool:
Seriously though I agree in principle
Sorry, had to pause here, this always puzzles me. Then what exactly comes after this? Oh, ""reality""
that it should not be political. All SC judges should be strict constructionists and interpret the Constitution the way it was written. But in reality here comes the Democrats and progressives who care little about the Constitution and wish the US to be part of the EU. So politics is involved and there is no way around that.
Tis true. However, in the founder's minds, that is why the president is allowed to nominate and the senate is allowed to confirm. In their minds, IMHO, this was the best way to avoid politics. And maybe if their vision "really" worked, we would see "reality."
Here in NC we have made popular elections for judges "non-partisan". In reality it is a ruse by the Democrats to prevent that dreaded D in front of theri name on the ballot- a clear indicator of being soft on crime. So in order to find out who the GOP judges are I have to log onto a special website.
Actually, state courts are different from federal courts. The powers/jurisdiction are different.
82Marine89
07-25-2007, 11:15 PM
I am for the first time in my USMB/DP history going to bow out of further discussion on illegals, i'm fighting with people whom I like and it just makes me uneasy.
They stay or they go, my life doesn't change 1 iota.
This arguing is what makes your bond grow stronger. Some of my best friends disagree with me politically yet we get along great. We do argue politics, yet we do so civilly. No name calling allowed. It forces you/me/us to stick to the facts and leave emotion out of it.
Pale Rider
07-27-2007, 03:28 AM
Gettysburg is 20 minutes from my new house, 25 to the battlefield.
Holy shit... REALLY???!!! That is fucking AWESOME!!!!
My last wife was from Hanover. The next town down the road from Gettysburg. I'm a huge history buff about early America, the Civil War, Louis and Clark, Wyatt Earp, Hickock, that stuff. I was REALLLLY pissed off when I discovered my wife had taken the Gettysburg pics when I threw her out of the house. There was one of me standing in front of the Wisconsin volunteers monument, and my great, great, great uncle was in that. I "HAVE" to get new pictures of that stuff someday. I'll see ya...
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