Rasmussen: 24% Would Opt Out of Trump v Hillary

[Kathianne]

As of today, always to keep in mind regarding polls:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections/election_2016/24_opt_out_of_a_clinton_trump_race?utm_source=news letter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=DailyNewsletter


Nearly one-in-four voters say they will stay home or vote third party if Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are the major party presidential candidates.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey of Likely U.S. Voters finds Trump and Clinton tied at 38% each. But 16% say they would vote for some other candidate if the presidential election comes down to those two, while six percent (6%) would stay home. Only two percent (2%) are undecided given those options. (To see survey question wording, click here (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/questions/pt_survey_questions/april_2016/questions_clinton_trump_april_25_26_2016).)

Still, the picture appears to be improving for both candidates. In early March, 49% of voters told us they would definitely vote against Trump if he is the presidential nominee of the Republican Party, but nearly as many (42%) said they would definitely vote against Clinton if she is the Democratic Party’s nominee (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/february_2016/trump_or_clinton_who_are_voters_most_likely_to_vot e_against).

Trump is more toxic within his own party than Clinton is in hers. If Trump is the Republican nominee, 16% of GOP voters say they would choose a third-party candidate, while five percent (5%) would stay home. Sixty-six percent (66%) would vote for Trump, but 10% would vote for Clinton instead.


...

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

As of today, always to keep in mind regarding polls:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections/election_2016/24_opt_out_of_a_clinton_trump_race?utm_source=news letter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=DailyNewsletter

YOU HAVE A WILY FOX AND A COBRA, TO CHOOSE FROM YET SUPPOSED REPUBLICANS CRY HOW THEY WILL VOTE FOR THE COBRA..
I'D CALL SUCH PEOPLE FFING MORONS, LYING ABOUT BEING REPUBLICAN AND IF THEY CLAIM TO BE CONSERVATIVE AND THEN CRY THEY WILL VOTE THE HILDABEAST THEN THEY ARE LYING BASTARDS ABOUT BEING CONSERVATIVE..
Because Hillary is the exact opposite of any conservative and a worthless, lying, corrupt piece of human waste.
Any man claiming conservative creds , standing face to face with me and cries out how he voted for Hillary- I will most likely slap him on his ass.
And dare him to get up to fight..
For such stupidity deserves harsh treatment in my book.
Note-- I said any man and I meant it. I dont play..-Tyr

[Elessar]

This is a cry-baby reaction to eventual choices.

Staying away does not prove anything.

Going third party only affects the eventual outcome,
because there is NO strong third party in this nation.

Pinch your nose and vote, cowards.

[Russ]

This is a cry-baby reaction to eventual choices.

Staying away does not prove anything.

Going third party only affects the eventual outcome,
because there is NO strong third party in this nation.

Pinch your nose and vote, cowards.

True, Elessar. Unfortunately, never underestimate the ability of your fellow voters to be incredibly stupid, cowardly, lazy, and selfish. Even some Republicans - Dems don't have a total monopoly on those "qualities".

[Kathianne]

True, Elessar. Unfortunately, never underestimate the ability of your fellow voters to be incredibly stupid, cowardly, lazy, and selfish. Even some Republicans - Dems don't have a total monopoly on those "qualities".
Sorry Russ and Elessar, I'm not any of those adjectives. I just am doing what is right for myself.

[aboutime]

In the end. No matter WHO votes, nor WHO they vote for, from WHATEVER party. The results of the election in November will ALWAYS REMAIN....the Blame of WE THE PEOPLE.
The same people who are perpetually uninformed, and easily-led, easily convinced to vote for only the familiar names, or the best looking, or the one who makes the most Promises (lies), and convinces the perpetually under-educated to follow the EASY, FREE path to STUPID.

[LongTermGuy]

Sorry Russ and Elessar, I'm not any of those adjectives. I just am doing what is right for myself.

:)



"Thats OK Kat my dear...not a problem...I will have plenty of votes"

http://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Donald-Trump.jpg?896bc4

[crin63]

Most of the Republicans I know will abstain from voting or vote 3rd party if Trump is the nominee.

They will not vote Trump, Hillary, or Bernie.

[Atticus Finch]

YOU HAVE A WILY FOX AND A COBRA, TO CHOOSE FROM YET SUPPOSED REPUBLICANS CRY HOW THEY WILL VOTE FOR THE COBRA..
I'D CALL SUCH PEOPLE FFING MORONS, LYING ABOUT BEING REPUBLICAN AND IF THEY CLAIM TO BE CONSERVATIVE AND THEN CRY THEY WILL VOTE THE HILDABEAST THEN THEY ARE LYING BASTARDS ABOUT BEING CONSERVATIVE..
Because Hillary is the exact opposite of any conservative and a worthless, lying, corrupt piece of human waste.
Any man claiming conservative creds , standing face to face with me and cries out how he voted for Hillary- I will most likely slap him on his ass.
And dare him to get up to fight..
For such stupidity deserves harsh treatment in my book.
Note-- I said any man and I meant it. I dont play..-Tyrslap my ass?...I might like that..(:....seriously though they are 2 sides of the same coin.I would vote Trump only on the premise that he has no elected political history.However that doesn't comfort me whatsoever.It actually scares the Hell out of me that this is all we have to choose from.

[Gunny]

YOU HAVE A WILY FOX AND A COBRA, TO CHOOSE FROM YET SUPPOSED REPUBLICANS CRY HOW THEY WILL VOTE FOR THE COBRA..
I'D CALL SUCH PEOPLE FFING MORONS, LYING ABOUT BEING REPUBLICAN AND IF THEY CLAIM TO BE CONSERVATIVE AND THEN CRY THEY WILL VOTE THE HILDABEAST THEN THEY ARE LYING BASTARDS ABOUT BEING CONSERVATIVE..
Because Hillary is the exact opposite of any conservative and a worthless, lying, corrupt piece of human waste.
Any man claiming conservative creds , standing face to face with me and cries out how he voted for Hillary- I will most likely slap him on his ass.
And dare him to get up to fight..
For such stupidity deserves harsh treatment in my book.
Note-- I said any man and I meant it. I dont play..-Tyr

I have to disagree with you on this one, tyr. The fact is Trump is lying about being conservative and he's a RINO.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

slap my ass?...I might like that..(:....seriously though they are 2 sides of the same coin.I would vote Trump only on the premise that he has no elected political history.However that doesn't comfort me whatsoever.It actually scares the Hell out of me that this is all we have to choose from.

We will face two choices, common sense and logic dictates we choose the lesser of two evils.
When people shout they will refrain from picking the lesser they abrogate their duty and thus give a positive vote for the greater evil.
May be a sad state of affairs to have only two choices both bad but one deals with what one has.
To do otherwise makes no sense, as even if its in protest, the protest only adds that which they abhor--the greater evil..-Tyr

[Gunny]

We will face two choices, common sense and logic dictates we choose the lesser of two evils.
When people shout they will refrain from picking the lesser they abrogate their duty and thus give a positive vote for the greater evil.
May be a sad state of affairs to have only two choices both bad but one deals with what one has.
To do otherwise makes no sense, as even if its in protest, the protest only adds that which they abhor--the greater evil..-Tyr

I agree with the choices thing. What I've learned is you just aren't going to win this argument. I've tried and tried and tried and tried again. It just doesn't work.

I understand both sides of the argument. Why should we settler for an idiot? Because he's a lesser idiot? However, while everyone bitches, no one does a thing about it. They just start crying at voting time. If you ain't part of the solution, don't be part of the problem.

The RNC is a total failure now. They're so afraid of their own shadows it's pathetic. "Oh no, a Dem called me *fill in the blank*". The whole establishment needs to be replaced. I agree with that. Trump is not the answer.

[crin63]

We will face two choices, common sense and logic dictates we choose the lesser of two evils.
When people shout they will refrain from picking the lesser they abrogate their duty and thus give a positive vote for the greater evil.
May be a sad state of affairs to have only two choices both bad but one deals with what one has.
To do otherwise makes no sense, as even if its in protest, the protest only adds that which they abhor--the greater evil..-Tyr

What you fail to factor in to your analysis is character and conviction. Some people actually have principles they will not betray. It's not about the lessor of 2 evils, it's about right and wrong. Most of the people I know could probably vote for Trump against Hillary if he were pro-life. He is not and they will not. I will never vote for anyone who supports the slaughter of Americans.

[indago]

slap my ass?...I might like that..(:....seriously though they are 2 sides of the same coin.I would vote Trump only on the premise that he has no elected political history.However that doesn't comfort me whatsoever.It actually scares the Hell out of me that this is all we have to choose from.

Then vote for Trump and go for the REAL scare...

[indago]

We will face two choices, common sense and logic dictates we choose the lesser of two evils.
When people shout they will refrain from picking the lesser they abrogate their duty and thus give a positive vote for the greater evil.
May be a sad state of affairs to have only two choices both bad but one deals with what one has.
To do otherwise makes no sense, as even if its in protest, the protest only adds that which they abhor--the greater evil..-Tyr

A vote for the lesser of two evils is a vote for evil

[fj1200]

Gary Johnson: The only true conservative.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

A vote for the lesser of two evils is a vote for evil

And how does that weigh against the fact that not voting for the lesser insures longer/greater power for the greater evil??
Simple math.. If only two choices exist choose the one that does less harm..
Not complicated except when people decide to use it as an excuse to vent their anger and thus give greater evil far more power!
All the while claiming --standing on greater principle..
If the ship sinks and all drown --where the hell did that stand take us??
We have an entrenched two party system--only a revolution can over turn that.
If we have revolution in the world as it exists today- think Russia, China and the Middle East-- we wil not return as the dominant force and we will not survive as a nation that insures this level of freedom for its citizens.
I doubt that we'd survive at all myself..----Tyr

[Gunny]

What you fail to factor in to your analysis is character and conviction. Some people actually have principles they will not betray. It's not about the lessor of 2 evils, it's about right and wrong. Most of the people I know could probably vote for Trump against Hillary if he were pro-life. He is not and they will not. I will never vote for anyone who supports the slaughter of Americans.

Interesting. Then why would you allow someone like Obama or Hillary into office? They've onesy-twosy'd the Hell out of the Middle East. THAT isn't the slaughter of Americans? I know what you meant but look at it on a broader scale. All of the service members wasted under the last 2 watches? We are Americans too. In case you missed the insignias we wear and the oath we take. Most of us are pro life.

I don't know what Trump is besides being a weirdo. I DO however know what the Clintons are. I spent 8 years with Jackass #1 as my CinC.

It IS a case of the lesser of two evils. It's a shame that it has come to that but nobody's done a thing about it. The Dems uses guilt and fear and the GOP is afraid and feels guilty. Works like a charm. The time to fix the system is NOT when the primaries begin.

[Atticus Finch]

I guess it's either a slow death or a quick one.

[Kathianne]

We will face two choices, common sense and logic dictates we choose the lesser of two evils.
When people shout they will refrain from picking the lesser they abrogate their duty and thus give a positive vote for the greater evil.
May be a sad state of affairs to have only two choices both bad but one deals with what one has.
To do otherwise makes no sense, as even if its in protest, the protest only adds that which they abhor--the greater evil..-Tyr


The problem for me is that I've yet to be convinced that he is the lesser evil. I know where Hillary would go. As I've said, I won't vote for her.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

The problem for me is that I've yet to be convinced that he is the lesser evil. I know where Hillary would go. As I've said, I won't vote for her.

My friend, if the two choices are Hillary or Trump and you at your high intelligence level do not know which one is worse , I can think of nothing to say to convince you that my judgment is better on the matter.
However, to me its as easy as breathing going with Trump or any of the other 16 candidates that ran in the Republican primary and know this three of those other 16 I dearly despised.
Yet I'd voted for any of those three over Hillary the corrupt socialist, arrogant elitist jerk and truly despicable human being..--Tyr

[LongTermGuy]

My friend, if the two choices are Hillary or Trump and you at your high intelligence level do not know which one is worse , I can think of nothing to say to convince you that my judgment is better on the matter.
However, to me its as easy as breathing going with Trump or any of the other 16 candidates that ran in the Republican primary and know this three of those other 16 I dearly despised.
Yet I'd voted for any of those three over Hillary the corrupt socialist, arrogant elitist jerk and truly despicable human being..--Tyr


...it is written...a few will vote for Gary Johnson ...or not at all





http://s18.postimg.org/oi3xv66op/evil_witch.jpg
"Yes....vote for Gary Johnson"..................

http://cdn.breitbart.com/mediaserver/Breitbart/Big-Government/2012/11/03/gary-johnson-ap.jpg






:laugh:

[Kathianne]

My friend, if the two choices are Hillary or Trump and you at your high intelligence level do not know which one is worse , I can think of nothing to say to convince you that my judgment is better on the matter.
However, to me its as easy as breathing going with Trump or any of the other 16 candidates that ran in the Republican primary and know this three of those other 16 I dearly despised.
Yet I'd voted for any of those three over Hillary the corrupt socialist, arrogant elitist jerk and truly despicable human being..--Tyr

You're certainly not alone in thinking that. I hope I'm wrong and you are proven correct.

[aboutime]

Gary Johnson is an Unknown who hasn't got a snowball's chance of anything.


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/07/presidential-hopeful-gary-johnson-is-no-libertarian-hes-a-pro-pot-trump

[Russ]

I'm really surprised that people here who are 'conservative' are implying they would not vote for him in November is he is the Republican nominee and Hillary is the Dem nominee. Let's face it, the winner in November will be either the Republican nominee or the Dem nominee. It will not be the nominees of the Libertarian, Green, Communist, or the who-the-hell-cares parties, so voting for one of them is not an intelligent option, no matter how much you might like the person.

So if you are generally conservative person and Trump is the Republican candidate, you may as well vote for him. Otherwise you are just helping out Hillary, and you can't complain if she becomes President.

I'm not that big on Trump, but will vote from him over Hillary or Sanders in a second. If you don't like Trump, then you can complain about the stinkin' voters of Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, and Florida that weeded out all the other candidates, but don't vote for Hillary or 3rd party.

[Kathianne]

I'm really surprised that people here who are 'conservative' are implying they would not vote for him in November is he is the Republican nominee and Hillary is the Dem nominee. Let's face it, the winner in November will be either the Republican nominee or the Dem nominee. It will not be the nominees of the Libertarian, Green, Communist, or the who-the-hell-cares parties, so voting for one of them is not an intelligent option, no matter how much you might like the person.

So if you are generally conservative person and Trump is the Republican candidate, you may as well vote for him. Otherwise you are just helping out Hillary, and you can't complain if she becomes President.

I'm not that big on Trump, but will vote from him over Hillary or Sanders in a second. If you don't like Trump, then you can complain about the stinkin' voters of Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, and Florida that weeded out all the other candidates, but don't vote for Hillary or 3rd party.

You are welcome to your choice, as we all are. I'd rather vote for Johnson with whom I agree on many issues and make quite clear that a 'conservative' like Trump does not represent what I want in a conservative. Now maybe if he wins in November, I'll feel very silly for having seen him as a true threat. Hillary belongs in jail; Sanders is a socialist at best. So, I'll be left with Libertarian.

[Russ]

You are welcome to your choice, as we all are. I'd rather vote for Johnson with whom I agree on many issues and make quite clear that a 'conservative' like Trump does not represent what I want in a conservative. Now maybe if he wins in November, I'll feel very silly for having seen him as a true threat. Hillary belongs in jail; Sanders is a socialist at best. So, I'll be left with Libertarian.

I understand, but my point isn't about feeling silly if Trump wins and isn't as bad as you worry about. My point was more that it will be worse than silly if people that feel your way all vote for Johnson, and then it makes the difference that results in Hillary being elected President over Trump. Are you okay with that possible result?

[Kathianne]

I understand, but my point isn't about feeling silly if Trump wins and isn't as bad as you worry about. My point was more that it will be worse than silly if people that feel your way all vote for Johnson, and then it makes the difference that results in Hillary being elected President over Trump. Are you okay with that possible result?

Yes, if that is what happens it will be just the same as when I voted for another and Obama won. It happens.

[Gunny]

Yes, if that is what happens it will be just the same as when I voted for another and Obama won. It happens.

I never figured you for one that would just throw in the towel.

[aboutime]

Only One Way to describe those who only vote, knowing their choice has no chance of winning.....

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Albert Einstein

Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/alberteins133991.html

[Abbey Marie]

Most of the Republicans I know will abstain from voting or vote 3rd party if Trump is the nominee.

They will not vote Trump, Hillary, or Bernie.

This is why the Dems will continue to win. While we stand by our principles, they gleefully vote for their nominee, however corrupt or distasteful. And then continue to stack the SC with liberal activist judges who look upon the Constitution as toilet paper.

[LongTermGuy]

Most of the Republicans I know will abstain from voting or vote 3rd party if Trump is the nominee.

They will not vote Trump, Hillary, or Bernie.


Thats their issue...Most of the Americans I know *will `support the nominee` (Cruz or Trump)....Good thing about Donald...he is not worried about the emotional riffraff of a few cause their guy wasn't chosen ....besides...Trump pulls in many from all parties and all walks of life... and when he wins...those few can stay butt hurt for at least 4 years...and guess what? No one will give a damn...Life goes on...:laugh:

[LongTermGuy]

This is a cry-baby reaction to eventual choices.

Staying away does not prove anything.

Going third party only affects the eventual outcome,
because there is NO strong third party in this nation.

Pinch your nose and vote, cowards.


That be a big 10-4 brotha...

[Noir]

Not surprised by those numbers, i know a lot of conservatives who say they'll never vote for trump and a lot of liberals who say they'll never vote for hillary.

However when it comes to the crunch i'm guessing the Russ types of each side will push many into voting for them with a 'not voting for x is a vote for y' strategy.

[Kathianne]

I never figured you for one that would just throw in the towel.

Indeed. It's so much better to say that you'll go with the crowd, under protest. :rolleyes:

[Atticus Finch]

Then vote for Trump and go for the REAL scare...I'm a Cruz man but the raging mob is going to give us Trump who I loathe.So, what am I to do? I loathe Hillary even more.Sitting on my hands and not voting forfeits my right to protest does it not?

[Russ]

Not surprised by those numbers, i know a lot of conservatives who say they'll never vote for trump and a lot of liberals who say they'll never vote for hillary.

However when it comes to the crunch i'm guessing the Russ types of each side will push many into voting for them with a 'not voting for x is a vote for y' strategy.

I, for one, think we need more 'Russ types' in this country. ;)

I don't consider myself to be pushing anyone, though. I'm just reminding 3rd party voters that they are accomplishing nothing other than helping elect the main-party candidate that they don't like. The phrase "cutting off your nose to spite your face" comes to mind.

There have been a lot of 3rd party candidates in the last hundred years, and what have they accomplished?
- Ross Perot, a conservative, ran 3rd party and accomplished the election of Democrat Bill Clinton. We're still paying for that one.
- Ralph Nader, a super liberal, ran 3rd party and may have helped elect George W Bush over Al Gore.
- Teddy Roosevelt ran 3rd party against Taft. They were both Republicans, and Taft was the incumbent President and Roosevelt was a two-term previous President, but what was accomplished was a win by Woodrow Wilson, a Democrat. Bretton Woods, anyone? WWI, anyone?

I'm just saying that when you vote 3rd party, you're spitting in the wind at best, and shooting yourself in the foot at worst.

[crin63]

Interesting. Then why would you allow someone like Obama or Hillary into office? They've onesy-twosy'd the Hell out of the Middle East. THAT isn't the slaughter of Americans? I know what you meant but look at it on a broader scale. All of the service members wasted under the last 2 watches? We are Americans too. In case you missed the insignias we wear and the oath we take. Most of us are pro life.

I don't know what Trump is besides being a weirdo. I DO however know what the Clintons are. I spent 8 years with Jackass #1 as my CinC.

It IS a case of the lesser of two evils. It's a shame that it has come to that but nobody's done a thing about it. The Dems uses guilt and fear and the GOP is afraid and feels guilty. Works like a charm. The time to fix the system is NOT when the primaries begin.

I totally get what you're saying (both Clintons should be in prison) but where do you draw the line on compromising your core beliefs and convictions? What's the next thing you compromise? And the next thing? Where does it stop? Just a little compromise is how we got to where we are today. There has to be a personal line in sand that you do not cross.

[crin63]

This is why the Dems will continue to win. While we stand by our principles, they gleefully vote for their nominee, however corrupt or distasteful. And then continue to stack the SC with liberal activist judges who look upon the Constitution as toilet paper.

Ok so which principles and core values do we compromise on next? Fidelity in marriage? You've already crossed the line so why not. We're not talking about mildly held take it or leave it values or as you put it principles. We're talking core of who you are. You don't wanna be faced with this then don't vote for Liberal pretending to be a Republican.

[Noir]

I, for one, think we need more 'Russ types' in this country. ;)

Sorry to say i'd rather have less - people should vote for who they want, not just for whoever happens to have an R or a D by their name.

[jimnyc]

I totally get what you're saying (both Clintons should be in prison) but where do you draw the line on compromising your core beliefs and convictions? What's the next thing you compromise? And the next thing? Where does it stop? Just a little compromise is how we got to where we are today. There has to be a personal line in sand that you do not cross.


Ok so which principles and core values do we compromise on next? Fidelity in marriage? You've already crossed the line so why not. We're not talking about mildly held take it or leave it values or as you put it principles. We're talking core of who you are. You don't wanna be faced with this then don't vote for Liberal pretending to be a Republican.

A lot of folks write in candidates as well, which also have no chance at all of winning. I've actually done so before. But honestly? I wouldn't do so again, I don't think so anyway. While I voted for the person closest to my beliefs and what I wanted - it was clear to me afterwards that while my vote wasn't "wasted", it had no power behind it at all. One of the 2 major candidate will win this election.

I don't disagree with you. It's tough decisions for folks to make. It's personal decisions for folks to make. But for ME, at the end of the day, in THIS election, the thought of Hillary making decisions in the white house is terrifying. It's almost just as important to keep her out, as it is to get someone in there that will do a good job. Some will compare Hillary to Trump, but not even remotely close or in the same universe. Trump may not be what some want, and in comparison to other candidates that they liked or supported, but there are just endless issues that Trump is different than Hillary. But I disagree that he is a liberal. I admit he has had liberal stances on a few things, and has donated funds to liberals/democrats. But I also believe the majority of his stances are not liberal at all. And I'm confident in his changes, at least enough to know he won't be using his pen to change such things as abortion or banning guns or anything like that.

[jimnyc]

Sorry to say i'd rather have less - people should vote for who they want, not just for whoever happens to have an R or a D by their name.

And yet each party has a long set of ideals that they stand for. It's rare, for the most part, that someone from the other side will be standing for all of the beliefs you stand for. So while I agree in theory what you're saying, based on freedoms, the fact remains that you won't and shouldn't see many going to the other side and voting - unless the other side somehow, their stances all align with your own.

[Abbey Marie]

Ok so which principles and core values do we compromise on next? Fidelity in marriage? You've already crossed the line so why not. We're not talking about mildly held take it or leave it values or as you put it principles. We're talking core of who you are. You don't wanna be faced with this then don't vote for Liberal pretending to be a Republican.

Would you vote unwinnable third party if we had Trump vs Hitler? Or stick to your principles?

[Russ]

Sorry to say i'd rather have less - people should vote for who they want, not just for whoever happens to have an R or a D by their name.

You are in the distinct minority there, Noir. Recent surveys overwhelmingly call for more Russ-types.

So if all you care about is vote for someone who has exactly your values, regardless of their chance of winning, then just vote for yourself as a write-in candidate. You'd have the same chance of winning the election as any other 3rd party candidate, which is to say "zero".

[Noir]

You are in the distinct minority there, Noir. Recent surveys overwhelmingly call for more Russ-types.

So if all you care about is vote for someone who has exactly your values, regardless of their chance of winning, then just vote for yourself as a write-in candidate. You'd have the same chance of winning the election as any other 3rd party candidate, which is to say "zero".

I don't recall saying you have to "vote for someone who has exactly your values". I did say people should vote for who they want.

[Russ]

I don't recall saying you have to "vote for someone who has exactly your values". I did say people should vote for who they want.

Yes, but you did say to vote for the candidate that is closer to your values, even if that candidate has zero chance of winning. I'm just taking your way of thinking one step further as an example of what I think is wrong with it.

In contrast, my thinking is consider only the candidates that have a non-zero chance of winning, and then select the person that is closest to your values.

I do not think symbolic votes accomplish anything, but if you do, then please respond with an example. I'd be interested in hearing it.

[Little-Acorn]

Rasmussen: 24% Would Opt Out of Trump v Hillary

That would make it one of the highest-voting-percentage elections in history. Good job!

Usually anywhere from 30 to 50 percent of the voting population, doesn't bother voting in an election.

If Trump vs. Hillary can cut that down to 24%, they have accomplished something very good.

[Abbey Marie]

I don't recall saying you have to "vote for someone who has exactly your values". I did say people should vote for who they want.

Whats wrong with wanting an "R" over a "D" as your primary (no pun intended) goal?

[Noir]

Yes, but you did say to vote for the candidate that is closer to your values, even if that candidate has zero chance of winning. I'm just taking your way of thinking one step further as an example of what I think is wrong with it.

In contrast, my thinking is consider only the candidates that have a non-zero chance of winning, and then select the person that is closest to your values.

I do not think symbolic votes accomplish anything, but if you do, then please respond with an example. I'd be interested in hearing it.

So Kang or Kodos?

http://youtu.be/4v7XXSt9XRM

//second Simpsons link in a week wut//

You voting for who you want is fine, telling others they shouldn't vote for who they want ain't so fine. (My phrasing on this is terrible but heyho...)

[Noir]

Whats wrong with wanting an "R" over a "D" as your primary (no pun intended) goal?

If that's all someone cares about fair enough, but the more that is considered the better.

[jimnyc]

Slightly OT...

Hillary has less votes than she did in 2008 at this point. While some like to point out that Trump has a less favorable rating with many R's, he also has set records, already, for the total amount of votes and there is plenty left. So while the hatred is in fact there for the man, so are the record amounts of people coming out to vote for him - and that was with plenty in the race from the beginning sharing votes, and then still sharing them 3-way for quite some time. Additionally, the polls that myself and others post, Trump has cut into Hillary's lead by 4 points in the past 2 weeks - with no debates against her and barely campaigning against her at all.

So while some will opt out of these 2 come November, right now a fair amount of signs are looking good for Trump.

[jimnyc]

If that's all someone cares about fair enough, but the more that is considered the better.

Again, the R and D have a long list of ideals that the party stands for - so in most likelihood, the R or D will lean mostly towards your beliefs, and farther from the other candidate. So it's not like someone is voting wholly against what they believe in, just to vote along the R or D lines.

I thought I would clear that up for you, since you answered the others and breezed past my simple explanation.

[Abbey Marie]

If that's all someone cares about fair enough, but the more that is considered the better.

Yes, of course, and earlier in the primary season, we were all able to choose our favorite candidates based on our most important issues. But thanks to NH, Iowa, etc., we are stuck with who we're stuck with, and they are still better than Hillary or Bernie, imo.

[jimnyc]

To give idea, Noir, since you seem to lean left IMO. (and this can go for others as well, in either direction).

Candidates aside, can you quickly give me a list of 7 stances you are very much in support of - that the (R) or right leaning folks stand for?

[Noir]

Again, the R and D have a long list of ideals that the party stands for - so in most likelihood, the R or D will lean mostly towards your beliefs, and farther from the other candidate. So it's not like someone is voting wholly against what they believe in, just to vote along the R or D lines.

I thought I would clear that up for you, since you answered the others and breezed past my simple explanation.

"I didn't vote wholly against what I believe in" should be a Election Day voting badge (:

[jimnyc]

Yes, of course, and earlier in the primary season, we were all able to choose our favorite candidates based on our most important issues. But thanks to NH, Iowa, etc., we are stuck with who we're stuck with, and they are still better than Hillary or Bernie, imo.

I would imagine that Hillary has less than 1 stance that I would agree with her about. Voting against her isn't necessarily voting against a D just because they are a D - but rather because she stands for everything that sucks and that is wrong with our country.

[jimnyc]

"I didn't vote wholly against what I believe in" should be a Election Day voting badge (:

Umm, yeah, I voted with the things I DO believe in, which 99 out of 100 times are down the R line. Sorry that is a foreign sounding thing for you. :)

[Russ]

You voting for who you want is fine, telling others they shouldn't vote for who they want ain't so fine. (My phrasing on this is terrible but heyho...)

Noir, your capacity to misconstrue my point is impressive. You can vote for whoever you want, but my point is just this: a 3rd-party vote is symbolic and pointless at best, and is helping elect the person you like the least, at worst.

[crin63]

A lot of folks write in candidates as well, which also have no chance at all of winning. I've actually done so before. But honestly? I wouldn't do so again, I don't think so anyway. While I voted for the person closest to my beliefs and what I wanted - it was clear to me afterwards that while my vote wasn't "wasted", it had no power behind it at all. One of the 2 major candidate will win this election.

I don't disagree with you. It's tough decisions for folks to make. It's personal decisions for folks to make. But for ME, at the end of the day, in THIS election, the thought of Hillary making decisions in the white house is terrifying. It's almost just as important to keep her out, as it is to get someone in there that will do a good job. Some will compare Hillary to Trump, but not even remotely close or in the same universe. Trump may not be what some want, and in comparison to other candidates that they liked or supported, but there are just endless issues that Trump is different than Hillary. But I disagree that he is a liberal. I admit he has had liberal stances on a few things, and has donated funds to liberals/democrats. But I also believe the majority of his stances are not liberal at all. And I'm confident in his changes, at least enough to know he won't be using his pen to change such things as abortion or banning guns or anything like that.

I believe Trump will do whatever is best for Trump and his brand. That may or may not be good for America. He went from being my 2nd choice to can't vote for him. That's drastic. The more he talked the more I believed it was all a reality show he was playing. I can't see him as anything but a liar since his position changes depending on who he is talking to. I believe Hillary would be worse on abortion. I believe Hillary and her husband should both be in prison.

My line in the sand is abortion. That line doesn't move and I won't waver in that position. I will never vote for someone who I do not believe is pro-life. If he had a believable change of heart on anything I might take him at his word but since he still insists that Planned Parenthood does some terrific things for women. I don't buy for a moment that he is pro-life.

[jimnyc]

I believe Trump will do whatever is best for Trump and his brand. That may or may not be good for America. He went from being my 2nd choice to can't vote for him. That's drastic. The more he talked the more I believed it was all a reality show he was playing. I can't see him as anything but a liar since his position changes depending on who he is talking to. I believe Hillary would be worse on abortion. I believe Hillary and her husband should both be in prison.

My line in the sand is abortion. That line doesn't move and I won't waver in that position. I will never vote for someone who I do not believe is pro-life. If he had a believable change of heart on anything I might take him at his word but since he still insists that Planned Parenthood does some terrific things for women. I don't buy for a moment that he is pro-life.

Was just speaking of that in another thread. Would love to see the beginning of that before long with Hillary, but I wouldn't bet much on it. But if there is any truth and justice within our government, she will be found "not above the law" and get indicted and pay the price for acting like she can do whatever she pleases, as if SHE is the government.

I don't blame you with the abortion issue. Please don't think I don't care about 54+ million lost lives since Woe. :( I'm not here to convince you otherwise, so don't take it as such, just explaining myself. :) I'm against abortion 100%. I do believe Trump is against it as we speak as well. I think he spoke up for PP, but against abortion. And he has kids that are growing, and grandchildren. Having the little ones sure does have a way of making folks look at things differently. And lastly, I just don't think he would be doing anything with abortion should he get in there regardless. I know that sounds weak, but it's true. For me, there are bigger fish to fry this go 'round, as I just don't see him having anything to do with it anyway. BUT, we both know that it's extremely important to get a good SC judge in there. No way is Trump going with a liberal as some have said, or his sister. Besides, whoever gets nominated still has to go through the process like anyone else. I have no doubt myself that we'll see a nominee that leans more to the right. :)

[crin63]

Would you vote unwinnable third party if we had Trump vs Hitler? Or stick to your principles?

LOL! I realize that to some people principles are just mild guidelines in which they kinda sorta stick too when it's convenient but are willing to jump ship on soon as the waters have a ripple.

If Hillary gets elected it isn't the fault of those who cannot vote for Trump. This is the fault of those who have pushed Trump. Trump supporters have known for months that principled conservatives won't vote for Trump in November and why. Yet they want them to abandon their principles in November rather than them abandoning Trump for someone the majority of Republicans can vote for. They wanna shove Trump down our throats and then tell us it's our fault when we can't vote for him.

Nice try but I won't feel any guilt or remorse for sticking to my principles.

[jimnyc]

LOL! I realize that to some people principles are just mild guidelines in which they kinda sorta stick too when it's convenient but are willing to jump ship on soon as the waters have a ripple.

If Hillary gets elected it isn't the fault of those who cannot vote for Trump. This is the fault of those who have pushed Trump. Trump supporters have known for months that principled conservatives won't vote for Trump in November and why. Yet they want them to abandon their principles in November rather than them abandoning Trump for someone the majority of Republicans can vote for. They wanna shove Trump down our throats and then tell us it's our fault when we can't vote for him.

Nice try but I won't feel any guilt or remorse for sticking to my principles.

Why aren't the majority of republicans voting for that person now?

[crin63]

Why aren't the majority of republicans voting for that person now?

By the time the race came down to 2 it's pretty much been split. It's going back and forth. I have heard most Trump supporters say they could vote for Ted Cruz in November and I have heard most Cruz supporters say they cannot vote for Donald Trump in November.

[Abbey Marie]

LOL! I realize that to some people principles are just mild guidelines in which they kinda sorta stick too when it's convenient but are willing to jump ship on soon as the waters have a ripple.

If Hillary gets elected it isn't the fault of those who cannot vote for Trump. This is the fault of those who have pushed Trump. Trump supporters have known for months that principled conservatives won't vote for Trump in November and why. Yet they want them to abandon their principles in November rather than them abandoning Trump for someone the majority of Republicans can vote for. They wanna shove Trump down our throats and then tell us it's our fault when we can't vote for him.

Nice try but I won't feel any guilt or remorse for sticking to my principles.

So, by your non-answer, I take its a Hitler-enabling third party vote, for you?

[jimnyc]

By the time the race came down to 2 it's pretty much been split. It's going back and forth. I have heard most Trump supporters say they could vote for Ted Cruz in November and I have heard most Cruz supporters say they cannot vote for Donald Trump in November.

I've spoken with folks and have the opposite reactions. But either way, the reasons were all the same from the Trump folks I have spoken to, for why they would vote Cruz if it came to that - to keep Hillary out of office. So it's not like they would all be doing so because Cruz is more palatable as a secondary selection, but rather because folks don't want to see a criminal in office! :laugh:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I believe Trump will do whatever is best for Trump and his brand. That may or may not be good for America. He went from being my 2nd choice to can't vote for him. That's drastic. The more he talked the more I believed it was all a reality show he was playing. I can't see him as anything but a liar since his position changes depending on who he is talking to. I believe Hillary would be worse on abortion. I believe Hillary and her husband should both be in prison.




My line in the sand is abortion. That line doesn't move and I won't waver in that position. I will never vote for someone who I do not believe is pro-life. If he had a believable change of heart on anything I might take him at his word but since he still insists that Planned Parenthood does some terrific things for women. I don't buy for a moment that he is pro-life.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Ok, I am firmly against abortion too.

Now lets look at facts.
1. Hillary is without any doubt loudly and proudly in the lets kill babies camp
2. You only believe Trump is lying.
3. SO YOU DONT VOTE Trump THUS INSURING that the one(Hillary) that is without any doubt pro-abortion gains power ..
4. That is you betting on him being no better against you already knowing she is an avowed abortion loving , lets kill those babies bitch..

I see an illogical misstep but hey its your choice to make not mine..
Just dont dare cry when she is prez and goes obama on steriods in destroying his nation continuing his globalist policies..--ok?-Tyr

Those 4 points are all valid and as is my conclusion derived from those stated facts..,-Tyr

[fj1200]

I'm really surprised that people here who are 'conservative' are implying they would not vote for him in November is he is the Republican nominee and Hillary is the Dem nominee. Let's face it, the winner in November will be either the Republican nominee or the Dem nominee. It will not be the nominees of the Libertarian, Green, Communist, or the who-the-hell-cares parties, so voting for one of them is not an intelligent option, no matter how much you might like the person.

It would have been the wise decision to vote against Hoover in '28.

[Gunny]

I believe Trump will do whatever is best for Trump and his brand. That may or may not be good for America. He went from being my 2nd choice to can't vote for him. That's drastic. The more he talked the more I believed it was all a reality show he was playing. I can't see him as anything but a liar since his position changes depending on who he is talking to. I believe Hillary would be worse on abortion. I believe Hillary and her husband should both be in prison.

My line in the sand is abortion. That line doesn't move and I won't waver in that position. I will never vote for someone who I do not believe is pro-life. If he had a believable change of heart on anything I might take him at his word but since he still insists that Planned Parenthood does some terrific things for women. I don't buy for a moment that he is pro-life.

That's about the size of it.

[Gunny]

It would have been the wise decision to vote against Hoover in '28.

Hoover was a scapegoat. He just didn't know how to act fast on his feet. He inherited what he got. Opposite side of the coin: activist President that thinks he's a king, above the law, and uses a pen and a phone.

[fj1200]

Hoover was a scapegoat. He just didn't know how to act fast on his feet. He inherited what he got. Opposite side of the coin: activist President that thinks he's a king, above the law, and uses a pen and a phone.

Nope. He wasn't forced to sign Smoot-Hawley or increase taxes.


Retaliation[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Smoot%E2%80%93Hawley_Tariff_Act&action=edit&section=3)]Threats of retaliation began long before the bill was enacted into law in June 1930. As it passed the House of Representatives in May 1929, boycotts broke out and foreign governments moved to increase rates against American products, even though rates could be increased or decreased by the Senate or by the conference committee. By September 1929, Hoover's administration had received protest notes from 23 trading partners, but threats of retaliatory actions were ignored.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot%E2%80%93Hawley_Tariff_Act#cite_note-economist-11)
In May 1930, the greatest trading partner, Canada (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Canada), retaliated by imposing new tariffs on 16 products that accounted altogether for around 30% of U.S. exports to Canada.[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot%E2%80%93Hawley_Tariff_Act#cite_note-17)Canada later also forged closer economic links with the British Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire) via the British Empire Economic Conference (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire_Economic_Conference) of 1932. France and Britain protested and developed new trade partners. Germany developed a system of autarky (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autarky).
Both Reed Smoot and Willis Hawley were defeated for reelection in 1932, the depression had worsened for workers and farmers despite their promises of prosperity with a high tariff.[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot%E2%80%93Hawley_Tariff_Act#cite_note-18)

[Gunny]

Nope. He wasn't forced to sign Smoot-Hawley or increase taxes.

Oh. A President made a dumb decision. There's something new. :rolleyes:

We've had plenty of Presidents that have made stupid decisions. Hoover's was no worse than the rest. He inherited what he got. In THAT specific theme, changing presidents every 4 years is dumb. No continuity and the successor always gets screwed by the predecessors BS. You'd have to come up with a nice fat check to get me to follow O-blah-blah.

[fj1200]

Oh. A President made a dumb decision. There's something new. :rolleyes:

We've had plenty of Presidents that have made stupid decisions. Hoover's was no worse than the rest. He inherited what he got. In THAT specific theme, changing presidents every 4 years is dumb. No continuity and the successor always gets screwed by the predecessors BS. You'd have to come up with a nice fat check to get me to follow O-blah-blah.

Point of order; he made a dumb decision that cost the country and the world? for 20 years and the Republican party for decades. He did not inherit what he got, he was the cause of it. We went from the last actual conservative-governing POTUS to a highly interventionist-governing POTUS. It didn't turn out well.

[Black Diamond]

Point of order; he made a dumb decision that cost the country and the world? for 20 years and the Republican party for decades. He did not inherit what he got, he was the cause of it. We went from the last actual conservative-governing POTUS to a highly interventionist-governing POTUS. It didn't turn out well.
Was hilarious listening to lefties squeal during 2009-10 about how faxes on rich should be raised when hoover raised taxes during depression.

[Black Diamond]

Wasn't it Hoover's idea to lend Germany money for war debt?

[fj1200]

Was hilarious listening to lefties squeal during 2009-10 about how faxes on rich should be raised when hoover raised taxes during depression.

They are a funny bunch.


Wasn't it Hoover's idea to lend Germany money for war debt?

The Dawes Plan? Not sure if it was his idea but do you think it led to WWII? The DP looked to coincide with the end of the hyperinflation of the Weimar Republic. Either way I don't think it was linked as closely with the Great Depression.

[Elessar]

I'm a Cruz man but the raging mob is going to give us Trump who I loathe.So, what am I to do? I loathe Hillary even more.Sitting on my hands and not voting forfeits my right to protest does it not?

Not in reality; however, a mature individual would think so.

[Elessar]

I, for one, think we need more 'Russ types' in this country. ;)

I don't consider myself to be pushing anyone, though. I'm just reminding 3rd party voters that they are accomplishing nothing other than helping elect the main-party candidate that they don't like. The phrase "cutting off your nose to spite your face" comes to mind.

There have been a lot of 3rd party candidates in the last hundred years, and what have they accomplished?
- Ross Perot, a conservative, ran 3rd party and accomplished the election of Democrat Bill Clinton. We're still paying for that one.
- Ralph Nader, a super liberal, ran 3rd party and may have helped elect George W Bush over Al Gore.
- Teddy Roosevelt ran 3rd party against Taft. They were both Republicans, and Taft was the incumbent President and Roosevelt was a two-term previous President, but what was accomplished was a win by Woodrow Wilson, a Democrat. Bretton Woods, anyone? WWI, anyone?

I'm just saying that when you vote 3rd party, you're spitting in the wind at best, and shooting yourself in the foot at worst.

Above are perfect examples.

There are many 'third parties' out there. None of them
strong enough to force the main issue, though. Most are
just special interest groups that cannot see the forest for
the trees.

Until one is established that can compete toe-to-toe with
the Republicans and Democrats, it is pure folly to even
bother with them.

[Elessar]

Sorry to say i'd rather have less - people should vote for who they want, not just for whoever happens to have an R or a D by their name.

What you do not understand, young fella, is
that many do just that. It is a sign of wisdom
and maturity to use Freedom of Choice rather
than be led around by the nose.

I've voted for people in both major parties and
even independents in local elections.

I just will not sit back and refuse to vote.

[Gunny]

Point of order; he made a dumb decision that cost the country and the world? for 20 years and the Republican party for decades. He did not inherit what he got, he was the cause of it. We went from the last actual conservative-governing POTUS to a highly interventionist-governing POTUS. It didn't turn out well.

In reference to which president? Which President do you think would have saved the US from a World-wide depression? We staved it off longer than most and it took a war to get us out of it. Neither event was the policy of a single president. And again, it's repeating history. The Depression was an event orchestrated by Wilson's policies.

Same goes now, as it did in 2000. Bush was responsible for Clinton's crap the second he was nominated. Everything wrong on Obama's watch is still Bush's fault. The next President is going to have to live with the results of Obama. And he's he's been a monumental F*ck-up.

[Trigg]

Let's be honest.

From what I remember most on this site didn't like John McCain, I know I couldn't stand him. But, I voted for him anyway, to at least try and keep bambam from getting Indiana.

I read the other day that Trump has gotten more votes during the primary than any other republican. He has energized the base like we haven't seen in decades.

Trump wasn't my first choice, but I'd vote twice if I could to keep Sanders or Hillary from screwing up this country anymore than bambam has already done.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Let's be honest.

From what I remember most on this site didn't like John McCain, I know I couldn't stand him. But, I voted for him anyway, to at least try and keep bambam from getting Indiana.

I read the other day that Trump has gotten more votes during the primary than any other republican. He has energized the base like we haven't seen in decades.

Trump wasn't my first choice, but I'd vote twice if I could to keep Sanders or Hillary from screwing up this country anymore than bambam has already done.

Here here now, such wisdom and sanity should not go unrewarded my friend when so many are announcing how they will abstain and thus gift that monster Hildabeast with the win.
SO HERE YA GO AND ENJOY.. :beer::wine::bow2::bow3::rock::flyflag:---TYR

[LongTermGuy]

Let's be honest.

From what I remember most on this site didn't like John McCain, I know I couldn't stand him. But, I voted for him anyway, to at least try and keep bambam from getting Indiana.

I read the other day that Trump has gotten more votes during the primary than any other republican. He has energized the base like we haven't seen in decades.

Trump wasn't my first choice, but I'd vote twice if I could to keep Sanders or Hillary from screwing up this country anymore than bambam has already done.

:salute::beer:

[aboutime]

Ya know. When everyone really, really thinks about this. There's just one question that applies using common sense, logic, and a desperate need to KEEP WE THE PEOPLE Free. And that question is..."Do you want Four, or Eight more years of the Obama agenda, or will you vote for Trump?:salute:

[Elessar]

Let's be honest.

From what I remember most on this site didn't like John McCain, I know I couldn't stand him. But, I voted for him anyway, to at least try and keep bambam from getting Indiana.

I read the other day that Trump has gotten more votes during the primary than any other republican. He has energized the base like we haven't seen in decades.

Trump wasn't my first choice, but I'd vote twice if I could to keep Sanders or Hillary from screwing up this country anymore than bambam has already done.

That really sums a lot up in a nutshell!:clap:

[fj1200]

In reference to which president? Which President do you think would have saved the US from a World-wide depression? We staved it off longer than most and it took a war to get us out of it. Neither event was the policy of a single president. And again, it's repeating history. The Depression was an event orchestrated by Wilson's policies.

Same goes now, as it did in 2000. Bush was responsible for Clinton's crap the second he was nominated. Everything wrong on Obama's watch is still Bush's fault. The next President is going to have to live with the results of Obama. And he's he's been a monumental F*ck-up.

We could have been saved from the GD by not creating the circumstances by which it came into being. The primary circumstances being the protectionist policies that were passed by Congress, signed by Hoover and retaliated against by other countries before they even took effect; Hoover proceeded to make further mistakes from there. Those were a 180 from where Coolidge governed. But of course FDR didn't save us from the continued ravages of the GD; he made them worse. I'd love to hear how you tie Wilson to the Great Depression.