Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Some religions like Christianity and Islam teach that people are condemned by God and that we have to work to gain salvation. God created us ill, and orders us to be well, on pain of tremendous eternal torture and eventual death. This teaching follows the one where we are told that God is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways. This makes the notions of condemnation and the need for salvation obvious lies.

Gnostic Christianity does not use this type of carrot and stick motivation in its theology. We are Universalists and only see a heaven, no hell. We think God too good a creator to ever have to condemn anyone. Our God is a winner, not the loser God that Christianity has invented. All the Gods are myths created to help us reach our highest human potential and are only tools to open our inner eye. Our single eye as Jesus calls it.

How we can forgive ourselves is that as Universalists, we have tied righteousness to equality. The logic trail from there says that if God is to punish anyone, he would have to punish everyone as everyone contributes to what we all are.

For instance. If God were to punish Hitler, he would have to revue what made Hitler what he ended up being. God would follow his time line and see perhaps that his parents spanked him and God would know what we know today, that spanking creates resentment and a delinquent attitude. That beginning would see Hitler's parents setting his mindset which eventually flowered into his tyrannical nature. So to be just, God would automatically have to punish Hitler's parents. That same logic would apply to everyone who contributed or facilitated Hitler's rise to infamy.

So for you and me to blame just ourselves for what we are would be quite unjust. This is not to say that we hold no responsibility for our actions, just not all of them.

Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?

Regards
DL

[tailfins]

Yes it is, except for those that teach salvation through Jesus Christ and only Jesus Christ.

[Gunny]

If this ain't a meeting of the minds ....:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[darin]

Yes it is, except for those that teach salvation through Jesus Christ and only Jesus Christ.


And because christs work is done, there is no longer eternal punishment and torment. Except when the church wants control.

:-)

[Abbey Marie]

And another cheerful weekend ahead for gnostic

:cheers2:

[jimnyc]

Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Were you assaulted/beaten by a religious person?

[revelarts]

very interesting how Gnostic allways attempts to appeal 1st to people's personal opinions and feelings rather than simply asking people to consider if the Bible or any other messages are simply true or false , regardless of how it's negatively couched by some ..."carrot and stick" this time around. :rolleyes:
the question finally is, is it true. Not whether we feel this or that aspect is the way we want it. But before we even get there it's right to question whether or not Gnostic is even correct in describing the chrsitian faith. Anyone who reads 2 paragraphs of his stuff can see the hard core distain of all things christian and if anyone simply reads the Bible in context they'll see his systematic MIScharacterization of nearly EVERY teaching in scripture.

These mischaracterizations he claims are "true" and from the "real god" but again appealing to self knowledge i.e. personal opinion. And if you ask him for a source for his authoritative views he'll dodge like an NFL pro, hand wave and name call the questioner and then redouble his slurs and attacks against christianity, christians, the scriptures, the prophets and the jewish faith to boot.
But if he's truly a "gnostic" then his ideas flow from skeptics and a christian knockoff group that sprung up 200-300 years AFTER Christ rose and Christianity was already well established. the gnostic "gospels" writings are ALL long after (250+years after Christ) and historically known to be a mishmash of plagiarism of the gospels and other writings, wives tales, greek ideas, and skepticism.

In contrast to the already established tenets of Christianity which now have historical documentation/written texts that goes back the the 1st century that confirm all the core tenets of christianity.
John Chapter 1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 He was in the beginning with God.3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it..... The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."...

....“For God so loved the world,[i (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%203&version=KJV;ESV;NIV#fen-ESV-26126i)] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil....

...36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him....


Ephesians 2
...For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them....


the GOOD NEWS is that salvation is free, despite our sins. One simply has to trust in Jesus Christ.
The offer is there free for those who want it. It's the truth.

John 14 Jesus said
...“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also." ...

[darin]

Ephesians 2 sorta points to the work of "salvation" being done. Complete. No traditional eternal hell or torment.

[revelarts]

Ephesians 2 sorta points to the work of "salvation" being done. Complete. No traditional eternal hell or torment.

One might get that impression about that from that verse in Ephesians... if it were the only thing said about salvation in the new testament.
you seem to take Ephesians 2 as authoritative Scripture (the word of god maybe?) but call the concepts of eternal hell and torment "traditional" . but Paul wrote both Ephesians and Thessalonians and about both the free gift of Grace to all ...that believe and about eternal hell and punishment DMP.
2 Thessalonians 1
...God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you...

[Voted4Reagan]

How about instead of engaging "GNOGGIE" we all ignore his obvious trolling and just let him and BitchFins have a mutual admiration society.

Do any of you actually think you can convince Gnoggie to see your point of view??

If you do you're deluding yourselves...

IGNORE HIM!!

[tailfins]

How about instead of engaging "GNOGGIE" we all ignore his obvious trolling and just let him and BitchFins have a mutual admiration society.

Do any of you actually think you can convince Gnoggie to see your point of view??

If you do you're deluding yourselves...

IGNORE HIM!!

We now have an example that living in NYC doesn't exempt someone from being poor white trash.

[Gunny]

We now have an example that living in NYC doesn't exempt someone from being poor white trash.

Who are you insulting now? Don't have enough enemies, or what? I don't know who the fuck you think came down from Heaven and ordained God's Greatest Gift" but you're dumber'n a hitchpost me. And I AM poor white trash. I've worked my ass off and never had two extra nickels to rub together. But I'd rather be me than you and all your self-proclaimed success. I'm a human being that cares about others. You're none of the above. All you ever talk about is your fucking money. Big damned deal. Money can't buy you a personality, nor can it buy you love. It'll get you some shit at the mall though.

You need to grow up.

[tailfins]

Who are you insulting now? Don't have enough enemies, or what? I don't know who the fuck you think came down from Heaven and ordained God's Greatest Gift" but you're dumber'n a hitchpost me. And I AM poor white trash. I've worked my ass off and never had two extra nickels to rub together. But I'd rather be me than you and all your self-proclaimed success. I'm a human being that cares about others. You're none of the above. All you ever talk about is your fucking money. Big damned deal. Money can't buy you a personality, nor can it buy you love. It'll get you some shit at the mall though.

You need to grow up.

I know you're just yanking my chain, but Mr. PWT (Poor White Trash) started it. Maybe what you're feeling is what they call in Brazil, "Dor de cotovelo". He make me think of a spoof of Micheal Jackson: "He's such a PWT. I want slap you, PWT (Poor White Trash). But I shouldn't because slapping a turd makes your hand stink."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B0itw6rmmI

[Gunny]

I know you're just yanking my chain, but Mr. PWT (Poor White Trash) started it. Maybe what you're feeling is what they call in Brazil, "Dor de cotovelo".

Yanking your chain? Dude I had one pair of shoes to wear to church on Sunday when I was little otherwise, I was running barefoot. In cut off shorts and no shirt. Nobody cared and we didn't even know we were poor. We thought everyone lived like us because everyone around us did. When I started school I thought they were torturing me making me get all dressed up with a collared shirt, belt, and shoes and socks.

And your Portugese sucks. It's Spanish and has no relevance to anything I've said. Or did you miss where I'd rather be me than you? You can have all the material bullshit your money can buy. Won't buy you a soul. Something you seem to be seriously lacking.

[tailfins]

Yanking your chain? Dude I had one pair of shoes to wear to church on Sunday when I was little otherwise, I was running barefoot. In cut off shorts and no shirt. Nobody cared and we didn't even know we were poor. We thought everyone lived like us because everyone around us did. When I started school I thought they were torturing me making me get all dressed up with a collared shirt, belt, and shoes and socks.

And your Portugese sucks. It's Spanish and has no relevance to anything I've said. Or did you miss where I'd rather be me than you? You can have all the material bullshit your money can buy. Won't buy you a soul. Something you seem to be seriously lacking.

There were two other words: White trash. And that part has nothing to do with his money. And now you're an expert on Portuguese. :laugh: Someone's arteries are hardening. I will leave you to pounding your keyboard.

[Gunny]

There were two other words: White trash. And that part has nothing to do with his money. And now you're an expert on Portuguese. :laugh: Someone's arteries are hardening.

I'm not an expert on Portugese. I speak Spanish fluently. Portugese is a derivative of Spanish. Not all that hard to figure out. Just takes a few.

I got the white trash part. It's a name idiots call poor Southerners who aren't even smart enough to play a chess game with them. I've heard it all my life. See that avatar? I'm Southern and proud. And I don't care no one handed me shit on a silver spoon. I don't care that I have to work for a living. You are the antithesis of me. Spoiled little brat that thinks money is everything. You wear what you earn on your sleeve in neon.

I'd rather be a person that cares than have your money. Seems to me everyone on this board is just as intelligent as you think you are yet you want to wave a paycheck in everyone's face. SO have your money, bubba. Can't wait to see you figure out how to take it with you. Last I checked, St Peter ain't got a cover charge.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Yes it is, except for those that teach salvation through Jesus Christ and only Jesus Christ.

You are speaking of substitutionary atonement.

Can I have your thoughts on this clip?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKNup9gEBdg&feature=em-subs_digest-vrecs

I would not mind arguing Songs position I you car to engage.

Regards
DL


very interesting how Gnostic allways attempts to appeal 1st to people's personal opinions and feelings rather than simply asking people to consider if the Bible or any other messages are simply true or false , regardless of how it's negatively couched by some ..."carrot and stick" this time around. :rolleyes:
the question finally is, is it true. Not whether we feel this or that aspect is the way we want it. But before we even get there it's right to question whether or not Gnostic is even correct in describing the chrsitian faith. Anyone who reads 2 paragraphs of his stuff can see the hard core distain of all things christian and if anyone simply reads the Bible in context they'll see his systematic MIScharacterization of nearly EVERY teaching in scripture.

These mischaracterizations he claims are "true" and from the "real god" but again appealing to self knowledge i.e. personal opinion. And if you ask him for a source for his authoritative views he'll dodge like an NFL pro, hand wave and name call the questioner and then redouble his slurs and attacks against christianity, christians, the scriptures, the prophets and the jewish faith to boot.
But if he's truly a "gnostic" then his ideas flow from skeptics and a christian knockoff group that sprung up 200-300 years AFTER Christ rose and Christianity was already well established. the gnostic "gospels" writings are ALL long after (250+years after Christ) and historically known to be a mishmash of plagiarism of the gospels and other writings, wives tales, greek ideas, and skepticism.

In contrast to the already established tenets of Christianity which now have historical documentation/written texts that goes back the the 1st century that confirm all the core tenets of christianity.
John Chapter 1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 He was in the beginning with God.3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it..... The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."...

....“For God so loved the world,[i (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%203&version=KJV;ESV;NIV#fen-ESV-26126i)] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil....

...36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him....


Ephesians 2
...For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them....


the GOOD NEWS is that salvation is free, despite our sins. One simply has to trust in Jesus Christ.
The offer is there free for those who want it. It's the truth.

John 14 Jesus said
...“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also." ...


Thanks for talking so much about me instead of the issue but did you have answer for the question?

Regards
DL

[tailfins]

You are speaking of substitutionary atonement.

Can I have your thoughts on this clip?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKNup9gEBdg&feature=em-subs_digest-vrecs

I would not mind arguing Songs position I you car to engage.

Regards
DL

He seems just like another relativist theologian: I'm not impressed. I do however appreciate your courteous tone.


How about instead of engaging "GNOGGIE" we all ignore his obvious trolling and just let him and BitchFins have a mutual admiration society.

Do any of you actually think you can convince Gnoggie to see your point of view??

If you do you're deluding yourselves...

IGNORE HIM!!

I think from the above any reasonable person would conclude that Voted4Reagan is more angry and hostile to traditional Christianity than Gnostic. At least Gnostic isn't an evil occultist. If Voted4Obama doesn't like my reply, he can go pound his demon-possessed keyboard.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

How about instead of engaging "GNOGGIE" we all ignore his obvious trolling and just let him and BitchFins have a mutual admiration society.

Do any of you actually think you can convince Gnoggie to see your point of view??

If you do you're deluding yourselves...

IGNORE HIM!!

You think me evil and you good yet for evil to grow, all good people need di is ignore evil.

You are playing into Satan's hands by not being able to do apologetics for your faith.

Regards
DL

[Gunny]

You think me evil and you good yet for evil to grow, all good people need di is ignore evil.

You are playing into Satan's hands by not being able to do apologetics for your faith.

Regards
DL

You aren't smart enough to be evil. You're an idiot. There's a difference.

[tailfins]

You think me evil and you good yet for evil to grow, all good people need di is ignore evil.

You are playing into Satan's hands by not being able to do apologetics for your faith.

Regards
DL

If you stay courteous as you have been, you'll have accomplished more than many posters here have accomplished, irrespective of your opinions.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

If you stay courteous as you have been, you'll have accomplished more than many posters here have accomplished, irrespective of your opinions.

I try but have to ignore a lot of garbage like what you see just above.

No other place I visit has so many who are afraid to have a look at their beliefs.

This tells me that these theists are really shallow believers.

When one loves to hate as much as many in this bunch do. It shows how really good Christianity is for people.

Regards
DL

[crin63]

Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Some religions like Christianity and Islam teach that people are condemned by God and that we have to work to gain salvation. God created us ill, and orders us to be well, on pain of tremendous eternal torture and eventual death. This teaching follows the one where we are told that God is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways. This makes the notions of condemnation and the need for salvation obvious lies.

Gnostic Christianity does not use this type of carrot and stick motivation in its theology. We are Universalists and only see a heaven, no hell. We think God too good a creator to ever have to condemn anyone. Our God is a winner, not the loser God that Christianity has invented. All the Gods are myths created to help us reach our highest human potential and are only tools to open our inner eye. Our single eye as Jesus calls it.

How we can forgive ourselves is that as Universalists, we have tied righteousness to equality. The logic trail from there says that if God is to punish anyone, he would have to punish everyone as everyone contributes to what we all are.

For instance. If God were to punish Hitler, he would have to revue what made Hitler what he ended up being. God would follow his time line and see perhaps that his parents spanked him and God would know what we know today, that spanking creates resentment and a delinquent attitude. That beginning would see Hitler's parents setting his mindset which eventually flowered into his tyrannical nature.So to be just, God would automatically have to punish Hitler's parents. That same logic would apply to everyone who contributed or facilitated Hitler's rise to infamy.

So for you and me to blame just ourselves for what we are would be quite unjust. This is not to say that we hold no responsibility for our actions, just not all of them.

Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?

Regards
DL




What information do you use for the basis of your conclusions? Is the Holy Bible the final authority for your conclusions or is there something else?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

What information do you use for the basis of your conclusions? Is the Holy Bible the final authority for your conclusions or is there something else?

The bible was a handy tool but just one of many sources of my final moral positions.

Jesus indicated that we should have his laws written in our hearts and that should be the final authority for all of us and not a bible that is a plagiarized consolidation of many older beliefs.

Biblically speaking, if we are all created in God's image, then we should all end at the same place.

Right?

Regards
DL

[Voted4Reagan]

We now have an example that living in NYC doesn't exempt someone from being poor white trash.

I have friends... lots of them

I have a Girlfriend that I didn't have to purchase..

Thats plenty rich for me....

Render unto Ceaser....Bitchfins

[Black Diamond]

I have friends... lots of them

I have a Girlfriend that I didn't have to purchase..

Thats plenty rich for me....

Render unto Ceaser....Bitchfinsthought you were married to WiccanLiberal.. (Shrug)

[Voted4Reagan]

thought you were married to WiccanLiberal.. (Shrug)

We live in "SIN" ... and have been together a LONG time

[Gunny]

If you stay courteous as you have been, you'll have accomplished more than many posters here have accomplished, irrespective of your opinions.

Yeah? Stupid is STILL stupid despite the window dressing you stick on it.

[Gunny]

I try but have to ignore a lot of garbage like what you see just above.

No other place I visit has so many who are afraid to have a look at their beliefs.

This tells me that these theists are really shallow believers.

When one loves to hate as much as many in this bunch do. It shows how really good Christianity is for people.

Regards
DL

Speak of the devil ...

People aren't afraid to look at their beliefs just because they disagree with yours. That's a dumbass assumption on your part.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vngjoSb-XrE


Regards
DL

[crin63]

The bible was a handy tool but just one of many sources of my final moral positions.

Jesus indicated that we should have his laws written in our hearts and that should be the final authority for all of us and not a bible that is a plagiarized consolidation of many older beliefs.

Biblically speaking, if we are all created in God's image, then we should all end at the same place.

Right?

Regards
DL

Wrong!

Your style is interesting. I see how you get people pulled into your discussion, however unless we can arrive at a final authority in which we both agree it's pointless to have a discussion.

The only final authority in which I will grant is the Holy Bible, translated from or the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. Not my heart and not your heart as only God can truly know the heart. I prefer the KJV as I don't know Hebrew and Greek but can look up as necessary in Strongs.

I'm also not willing to grant that we should end at the same place. The most learned and studied of men seldom end up at the same place and I am not even one of them.

[aboutime]

http://icansayit.com/images/idiotstupid.jpg

[Gunny]

We live in "SIN" ... and have been together a LONG time

Damned sinners. Yeah, I say unto you verily you will both burn in the pit of Hell. :laugh:

[Black Diamond]

Damned sinners. Yeah, I say unto you verily you will both burn in the pit of Hell. :laugh:

Verily. I haven't heard that word since elementary school.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Wrong!

Your style is interesting. I see how you get people pulled into your discussion, however unless we can arrive at a final authority in which we both agree it's pointless to have a discussion.

The only final authority in which I will grant is the Holy Bible, translated from or the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. Not my heart and not your heart as only God can truly know the heart. I prefer the KJV as I don't know Hebrew and Greek but can look up as necessary in Strongs.

I'm also not willing to grant that we should end at the same place. The most learned and studied of men seldom end up at the same place and I am not even one of them.

I see. So as long as I agree with you and your bible on all moral issues, we can debate.

:lol::lol:

Regards
DL

[Voted4Reagan]

Damned sinners. Yeah, I say unto you verily you will both burn in the pit of Hell. :laugh:

If Satan only punishes the wicked.... why is he considered the bad guy?

and at least we'll be among friends....

[crin63]

I see. So as long as I agree with you and your bible on all moral issues, we can debate.

:lol::lol:

Regards
DL

Since it's the only guide for faith and practice that really matters, yes.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Since it's the only guide for faith and practice that really matters, yes.

Let's have a quick look to see if we are even close. After all, I do not now just how you interpret what you read.

Is it ever moral and just to purposely torture a baby with an illness for 6 days before finally killing it?

Regards
DL

[tailfins]

I try but have to ignore a lot of garbage like what you see just above.

No other place I visit has so many who are afraid to have a look at their beliefs.

This tells me that these theists are really shallow believers.

When one loves to hate as much as many in this bunch do. It shows how really good Christianity is for people.

Regards
DL

Your premise is flawed. Do a poll on how many people in this forum attend church at least three times per month. You'll see lots of non-practicing Christians.


We live in "SIN" ... and have been together a LONG time

One positive thing I can say about you, Mister: You haven't reproduced.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Your premise is flawed. Do a poll on how many people in this forum attend church at least three times per month. You'll see lots of non-practicing Christians.

I believe you.

I did not mention church. Just Christianity.

Regards
DL

[Voted4Reagan]

One positive thing I can say about you, Mister: You haven't reproduced.

Actually...I have 3 kids. All honor students and all popular among their peers.

Do you have something to say about that?

[tailfins]

Actually...I have 3 kids. All honor students and all popular among their peers.

Do you have something to say about that?

That would be against the forum rules.

[Gunny]

Is this the epic fail thread, or what? Gnostic and TF think it's just fine to insult whoever they want and cry like little bitches if anyone calls them on it. Well, you're both little whiny-ass little sissy-ass bitches.

And to add on to V4R's post, my daughter's a war vet and currently a school teacher. You two goofs want to drag family in I'll be more than happy to play. Don't talk about peoples' kids unless you want a fucking war. Y'all think you're smart yet THAT is one of the dumbest things you can do on a message board. Ain't no one going to let your stupid asses talk about their kids. I'd think less of them if they did, and I definitely think less of you two useless fucks for doing so.

Why don't you insult someone that's here? Oh yeah, you're both too fucking stupid to get when you've had your asses handed to you. :rolleyes:

[darin]

You guys are a collection of chuckleheads. You don't want to learn or explore you want to brow-beat and insult as children of Democrats - or full grown democrats.

[darin]

The only final authority in which I will grant is the Holy Bible, translated from or the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. Not my heart and not your heart as only God can truly know the heart. I prefer the KJV as I don't know Hebrew and Greek but can look up as necessary in Strongs.

I'm also not willing to grant that we should end at the same place. The most learned and studied of men seldom end up at the same place and I am not even one of them.

But beyond the translations - Just understand the glimpse of God we have in scripture is the final result of a political and religious convention where other texts were banished or changed to be included. I'm saying God is so much vastly bigger than the Bible - and limiting our scope of God's grace to words we find in text limits our ability - our capacity - to know Love.

Here's my stance on the 'ending place'...I struggle thinking God is a big fat bully who sends his kids to eternal and unending torment. In fact, scripture tells us - some of us who read it that way - Christ has emptied hell; he did so after the crucifixion. You think if Paul knew he was writing 'the bible' he would have been a little more blatant with his guidance? Another thing; I don't believe every instruction to every church/group/person is tantamount to an instruction to me personally. Or 'The Church'.

Here's what I know - at least as best I can. "The Church" tends to act like a political party. The Church labels and frames the argument on its terms. The Church would lose MILLIONS, BILLIONS? of dollars if folks understood their 'crime' of sin is already done, paid for - and the Law is no more. See - and this goes back to nasty human nature - people don't want to 'be good' for the sake of being good - they want to 'be good' to avoid punishment. People who "love God" for the sake of avoiding Hell (or their understanding of eternal punishment for simply being made the way we are) do not in fact love God. They are strangers to Love and God.

Christ was pretty clear telling us the least of among us - the "sinners" will inhabit his Kingdom. Never once did he say 'Ex-sinners'. God is a consuming fire - and through him all who are, plainly, dickheads to others, will be purged through his fire and made anew. And every knee will bow and everyone and everything made whole. Anew.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

But beyond the translations - Just understand the glimpse of God we have in scripture is the final result of a political and religious convention where other texts were banished or changed to be included. I'm saying God is so much vastly bigger than the Bible - and limiting our scope of God's grace to words we find in text limits our ability - our capacity - to know Love.

Here's my stance on the 'ending place'...I struggle thinking God is a big fat bully who sends his kids to eternal and unending torment. In fact, scripture tells us - some of us who read it that way - Christ has emptied hell; he did so after the crucifixion. You think if Paul knew he was writing 'the bible' he would have been a little more blatant with his guidance? Another thing; I don't believe every instruction to every church/group/person is tantamount to an instruction to me personally. Or 'The Church'.

Here's what I know - at least as best I can. "The Church" tends to act like a political party. The Church labels and frames the argument on its terms. The Church would lose MILLIONS, BILLIONS? of dollars if folks understood their 'crime' of sin is already done, paid for - and the Law is no more. See - and this goes back to nasty human nature - people don't want to 'be good' for the sake of being good - they want to 'be good' to avoid punishment. People who "love God" for the sake of avoiding Hell (or their understanding of eternal punishment for simply being made the way we are) do not in fact love God. They are strangers to Love and God.

Christ was pretty clear telling us the least of among us - the "sinners" will inhabit his Kingdom. Never once did he say 'Ex-sinners'. God is a consuming fire - and through him all who are, plainly, dickheads to others, will be purged through his fire and made anew. And every knee will bow and everyone and everything made whole. Anew.

There is at least a couple of decent minds here.

This links speaks to how things should still be in terms of God and his unknowable attributes.

I found it well put and hope you enjoy it.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Regards
DL


You guys are a collection of chuckleheads. You don't want to learn or explore you want to brow-beat and insult as children of Democrats - or full grown democrats.

They do certainly run from this good advice.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.


I think they show a great insecurity for their positions and that is why they just pop in to throw insults at the more secure.

Regards
DL

[darin]

There is at least a couple of decent minds here.

This links speaks to how things should still be in terms of God and his unknowable attributes.

I found it well put and hope you enjoy it.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Regards
DL

Thank you. Thought-provoking to say the least!

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Thank you. Thought-provoking to say the least!

Indeed. Literalists, the majority here, will not likely think of what scholars say.

Here is sort of the next chapter in that thinking of God.

A little longer but it shows how much fun and enjoyable seeking God was back then as compared to the back biting that goes for discussions and debate in literalist places like this one.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html



Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."


Please listen as to what is said about literal reading.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Regards
DL

[Voted4Reagan]

That would be against the forum rules.

Smart move retard.... now shut the fuck up and go back in to your fucking hole.

[darin]

Indeed. Literalists, the majority here, will not likely think of what scholars say.

Here is sort of the next chapter in that thinking of God.

A little longer but it shows how much fun and enjoyable seeking God was back then as compared to the back biting that goes for discussions and debate in literalist places like this one.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html



Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."


Please listen as to what is said about literal reading.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Regards
DL



...which is akin to Christ's answer as to what is the greatest of all commandments? Love god and your neighbors/mankind. Funny thing is - Love cannot be commanded; love must grow from desire for goodness - not obedience to the law.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

...which is akin to Christ's answer as to what is the greatest of all commandments? Love god and your neighbors/mankind. Funny thing is - Love cannot be commanded; love must grow from desire for goodness - not obedience to the law.

I agree that love cannot be commanded.

I do not see I growing from a desire for goodness --- although I could agree if you see that growth being pushed by our survival instincts. Those seem to default to cooperation/good and not competition/evil.

Cooperation for weak animals like man is way better for survival than competition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIc-4h9RIvY

Regards
DL


...which is akin to Christ's answer as to what is the greatest of all commandments? Love god and your neighbors/mankind. Funny thing is - Love cannot be commanded; love must grow from desire for goodness - not obedience to the law.

I just wanted to add that you show good insight in seeing Jesus reject the law.

I see Jesus doing that when he said that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.

IOW, work could be done on the Sabbath and for his fellow Jews to stone a person for working it would be quite wrong. I also think Jesus had the same view for institutionalize religions.

Regards
DL

[crin63]

Let's have a quick look to see if we are even close. After all, I do not now just how you interpret what you read.

Is it ever moral and just to purposely torture a baby with an illness for 6 days before finally killing it?

Regards
DL


I apologize for my hasty response but if you make an assertion about Christians and Christianity then you are making assertions about Christ. Since the Bible is the foremost accepted authority on the subject of Jesus Christ and the Bible is the origin of information about Christ beyond oral tradition then the Bible has to be the final authority on the subject.

I'm not playing your loaded question game. I know you're planning to use my answer to attempt to discredit the source. I'm not biting.

[Gunny]

You guys are a collection of chuckleheads. You don't want to learn or explore you want to brow-beat and insult as children of Democrats - or full grown democrats.

Says the goof with an avatar that could make a 2 years old have nightmares. And I AM a child of Democrats. Which means I understand how they think. Nothing like knowing your enemy. And some of these people get old with their rhetoric. And you of all people know my default position is they can f*ck off.

I'd be happy to discuss Christianity/the Bible with you. What I won't do is waste my time on a moron like Gnostic. God, or whatever you choose to call him created us and Gnostic wants to blame him for doing so. The alternative is? Oh yeah, we wouldn't be here.

[Gunny]

Indeed. Literalists, the majority here, will not likely think of what scholars say.

Here is sort of the next chapter in that thinking of God.

A little longer but it shows how much fun and enjoyable seeking God was back then as compared to the back biting that goes for discussions and debate in literalist places like this one.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html



Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."


Please listen as to what is said about literal reading.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Regards
DL


Just stupid. You're about as scholarly as this baby. What you are is an antagonist with no cause. Grow the f*ck up, huh. Call yourself a scholar and you have yet to make even ONE legitimate argument. You're likea woodpecker with a rubber beak. Beating your head against a wall accomplishing nothing. A scholar is smart enough to know when they're wasting their time. So please include yourself in a lower form of life. There's nothing scholarly about you.

[darin]

Says the goof with an avatar that could make a 2 years old have nightmares. And I AM a child of Democrats. Which means I understand how they think. Nothing like knowing your enemy. And some of these people get old with their rhetoric. And you of all people know my default position is they can f*ck off.

I'd be happy to discuss Christianity/the Bible with you. What I won't do is waste my time on a moron like Gnostic. God, or whatever you choose to call him created us and Gnostic wants to blame him for doing so. The alternative is? Oh yeah, we wouldn't be here.

http://louderwithcrowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/IMG_3077.gif


Hows that one?

Here's the thing - I don't think GCB is a moron. I think he instigates; I think he approaches things the wrong way. But what scares the hell out of me is seeing folks feeling like they have to DEFEND their idea of Christ. As if GCB offended or insulted Christ and now folks must come to christ's rescue. I try to remember - and I fail in this a lot - but I try to remember the adage - I love God exactly as much as the person I love least.

Instead of getting offended I want to engage. I honestly don't NEED God to be a celebrity. I don't need Jesus to be protected. I don't need to defend what has become the western idea of Jesus. Further, I don't need the Bible to be the complete picture of God. And I absolutely detest reading single lines not written TO me or ABOUT me and applying them universally.

[Gunny]

http://louderwithcrowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/IMG_3077.gif


Hows that one?

Here's the thing - I don't think GCB is a moron. I think he instigates; I think he approaches things the wrong way. But what scares the hell out of me is seeing folks feeling like they have to DEFEND their idea of Christ. As if GCB offended or insulted Christ and now folks must come to christ's rescue. I try to remember - and I fail in this a lot - but I try to remember the adage - I love God exactly as much as the person I love least.

Instead of getting offended I want to engage. I honestly don't NEED God to be a celebrity. I don't need Jesus to be protected. I don't need to defend what has become the western idea of Jesus. Further, I don't need the Bible to be the complete picture of God. And I absolutely detest reading single lines not written TO me or ABOUT me and applying them universally.

Sure he instigates. He wouldn't be here otherwise. I get bored. Especially at midnight. I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. The Bible is a historical record of the Jews and Jesus was the first hippie. There STILL is a creator. All depends on how you see him.

But when you take Gnostic's approach I'm backing up with my sword. Right to where I get to the point of I have the advantage. I think you and he think he's smarter than he is.

Oh, and Jesus was an Arab. I don't go for the blonde hair and blue eyes thing. I'll give you creds on that one.

[darin]

I agree that love cannot be commanded.

I do not see I growing from a desire for goodness --- although I could agree if you see that growth being pushed by our survival instincts. Those seem to default to cooperation/good and not competition/evil.

Cooperation for weak animals like man is way better for survival than competition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIc-4h9RIvY



I'm saying if we love, we love because we are bent towards loving. Nothing we can 'do' IS love. We don't do something and that means love. When we love people, what we do is the consequence of how we feel. That make sense? Love must be love for the sake of love -not for compulsion based on fear of hell, punishment, etc.




I just wanted to add that you show good insight in seeing Jesus reject the law.

I see Jesus doing that when he said that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.

IOW, work could be done on the Sabbath and for his fellow Jews to stone a person for working it would be quite wrong. I also think Jesus had the same view for institutionalize religions.

Regards
DL

The only folks Christ condemned were the religious leaders of the day. That's my starting point. I assume religious leaders - especially, and no offense intended - anyone calling themselves Reverend, or bishop, or Elder, etc, ad nauseam.

[Gunny]

I'm saying if we love, we love because we are bent towards loving. Nothing we can 'do' IS love. We don't do something and that means love. When we love people, what we do is the consequence of how we feel. That make sense? Love must be love for the sake of love -not for compulsion based on fear of hell, punishment, etc.



The only folks Christ condemned were the religious leaders of the day. That's my starting point. I assume religious leaders - especially, and no offense intended - anyone calling themselves Reverend, or bishop, or Elder, etc, ad nauseam.

I don't disagree. Even Mr Hippie went off on the Pharisees. Point taken.

[Black Diamond]

I don't disagree. Even Mr Hippie went off on the Pharisees. Point taken.
I read Mark and Luke in my own. Jesus seems frustrated throughout.

[darin]

I read Mark and Luke in my own. Jesus seems frustrated throughout.

...but never with "sinners" - only those accusing the "sinners". Again, it's not FORMER prostitutes and tax-collectors will enter heaven...it's "Prostitutes", etc... :)

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I apologize for my hasty response but if you make an assertion about Christians and Christianity then you are making assertions about Christ. Since the Bible is the foremost accepted authority on the subject of Jesus Christ and the Bible is the origin of information about Christ beyond oral tradition then the Bible has to be the final authority on the subject.

I'm not playing your loaded question game. I know you're planning to use my answer to attempt to discredit the source. I'm not biting.

Not at all my friend I was allowing that the bible was the source and I wanted to question one of the stories of God in it.

I was willing to read it literally for our discussion.

Seems that have already won the debate by your default.

I guess our other friend was correct when saying that those here feared to actually do as scriptures encourage us to do.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

You must know the story I was going to test and decided to throw in the towel.

Can't say I blame you.

Regards
DL

[darin]

Not at all my friend I was allowing that the bible was the source and I wanted to question one of the stories of God in it.

I was willing to read it literally for our discussion.

Seems that have already won the debate by your default.

I guess our other friend was correct when saying that those here feared to actually do as scriptures encourage us to do.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

You must know the story I was going to test and decided to throw in the towel.

Can't say I blame you.

Regards
DL


If you really want to be christ-like, at all..stop worrying about "winning" debates on this shit. ;)

Further - people - nobody will change their paradigm until they find their own truth or perspective.

[Gunny]

Not at all my friend I was allowing that the bible was the source and I wanted to question one of the stories of God in it.

I was willing to read it literally for our discussion.

Seems that have already won the debate by your default.

I guess our other friend was correct when saying that those here feared to actually do as scriptures encourage us to do.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

You must know the story I was going to test and decided to throw in the towel.

Can't say I blame you.

Regards
DL

The Bible is not a suicide contract. We are ALL sinners. One way or another. So you haven't won a thing. You try to hold people to literal crap and it hasn't worked for a few thousand years. Playing literal games around here don't work. We all can do the same.

Try going with the content of the message instead of playing a word at a time. That makes YOU the loser from the start.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Here's the thing - I don't think GCB is a moron. I think he instigates; I think he approaches things the wrong way.

.

You will note that I approached things the right way with crin63 yet he just ran away with his tail tucked before even an attempt at dialog or discussion. He just put his head right back in the sand.

I do admit to trying to instigate because that is a way of getting rid of such quickly as all they do as exampled with crin63, is to waste my time.

Regards
DL


I'm saying if we love, we love because we are bent towards loving. Nothing we can 'do' IS love. We don't do something and that means love. When we love people, what we do is the consequence of how we feel. That make sense? Love must be love for the sake of love -not for compulsion based on fear of hell, punishment, etc.



The only folks Christ condemned were the religious leaders of the day. That's my starting point. I assume religious leaders - especially, and no offense intended - anyone calling themselves Reverend, or bishop, or Elder, etc, ad nauseam.

I have no argument with any of this.

I have a comment on, --- "Nothing we can 'do' IS love.".

This is true but as Jesus said about his followers and faith, you will know them by their works and deeds and that without them, faith is dead.

This same can be said of love. Without works and deeds, love is dead.

So, yes, --- "Nothing we can 'do' IS love.", ---- but we must do something if we love.

Regards
DL


If you really want to be christ-like, at all..stop worrying about "winning" debates on this shit. ;)

Further - people - nobody will change their paradigm until they find their own truth or perspective.

You do not quite understand me.


I debate in the hope of losing it.
Learning something new, to me, is one of the greatest pleasures I can have.
In that sense, I debate to lose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTN9Nx8VYtk&feature=youtu.be

Regards


If you really want to be christ-like, at all..stop worrying about "winning" debates on this shit. ;)

Further - people - nobody will change their paradigm until they find their own truth or perspective.

You do not quite understand me.


I debate in the hope of losing it.
Learning something new, to me, is one of the greatest pleasures I can have.
In that sense, I debate to lose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTN9Nx8VYtk&feature=youtu.be

Regards
DL


The Bible is not a suicide contract. We are ALL sinners. One way or another. So you haven't won a thing. You try to hold people to literal crap and it hasn't worked for a few thousand years. Playing literal games around here don't work. We all can do the same.

Try going with the content of the message instead of playing a word at a time. That makes YOU the loser from the start.

Our friend is the one who wanted to go literal.

You are correct in that I did not win anything. But our friend lost something.

Regards
DL

[crin63]

Not at all my friend I was allowing that the bible was the source and I wanted to question one of the stories of God in it.

I was willing to read it literally for our discussion.

Seems that have already won the debate by your default.

I guess our other friend was correct when saying that those here feared to actually do as scriptures encourage us to do.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

You must know the story I was going to test and decided to throw in the towel.

Can't say I blame you.

Regards
DL


LOL, you're funny! I never threw in the towel.

I'm still establishing a baseline in which to discuss. Because unless there is an agreed upon authority then everything is subjective and will end up with a moving target of your feelings.

I don't know what story you're in reference to off the top of my head, but by your style you were trying to set up your narrative with a gotcha type question. Make your case instead of playing games.

[Abbey Marie]

You will note that I approached things the right way with crin63 yet he just ran away with his tail tucked before even an attempt at dialog or discussion. He just put his head right back in the sand.

I do admit to trying to instigate because that is a way of getting rid of such quickly as all they do as exampled with crin63, is to waste my time.

Regards
DL

Mark 8:17-18
…17 (http://biblehub.com/mark/8-17.htm)And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet see or understand? Do you have a hardened heart? 18 (http://biblehub.com/mark/8-18.htm)"Having eyes, do you not see? And having ears, do you not hear?

[glockmail]

Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?




What a sad troll post. I can't believe y'all got suckered into 5 pages of this shit. :laugh:

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

LOL, you're funny! I never threw in the towel.

I'm still establishing a baseline in which to discuss. Because unless there is an agreed upon authority then everything is subjective and will end up with a moving target of your feelings.

I don't know what story you're in reference to off the top of my head, but by your style you were trying to set up your narrative with a gotcha type question. Make your case instead of playing games.

I already said that for here that I would defer to the bible that you said was to be the authority we would use.

I then proceeded to ask --- Is it ever moral and just to purposely torture a baby with an illness for 6 days before finally killing it?

I did not qualify that question in any way as coming from your bible.
It does happen that there is such a story in there but that should not hamper you from an answer on my general question which did not pertain to the bible.

Lets start or discussion or not. Your choice.

A simple yes or no from you or your bible will be a good start.

Regards
DL


Mark 8:17-18
…17 (http://biblehub.com/mark/8-17.htm)And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet see or understand? Do you have a hardened heart? 18 (http://biblehub.com/mark/8-18.htm)"Having eyes, do you not see? And having ears, do you not hear?

I see nothing relevant so you might want to say what you think is pertinent in it.

You an write? Yes?

Regards
DL


What a sad troll post. I can't believe y'all got suckered into 5 pages of this shit. :laugh:

If by a trolling question, you mean something you are not comfortable in answering.

Why do you think others should also be uncomfortable?

And do you not follow this good advice?

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
Seems not.

Regards
DL

[Abbey Marie]

I see nothing relevant so you might want to say what you think is pertinent in it.

You an write? Yes?

Regards
DL

Look, you proved my point for me!

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Look, you proved my point for me!

Regards
DL

[Gunny]

I already said that for here that I would defer to the bible that you said was to be the authority we would use.

I then proceeded to ask --- Is it ever moral and just to purposely torture a baby with an illness for 6 days before finally killing it?

I did not qualify that question in any way as coming from your bible.
It does happen that there is such a story in there but that should not hamper you from an answer on my general question which did not pertain to the bible.

Lets start or discussion or not. Your choice.

A simple yes or no from you or your bible will be a good start.

Regards
DL

And as crin said, you're loading your questions. Where in the Bible does it say it's okay to torture a baby for 6 days then kill it? I must have missed THAT Sunday School lesson.

[aboutime]

http://icansayit.com/images/troll.jpg Sometimes he just can't stop it.

[Russ]

Here's a question for you, Gnostic - why do agnostics or atheists feel the need to try to get believers to question their faith? I know why believers try to get agnostics to believe - because they want to save souls. But an agnostic arguing the other way... why? Because misery loves company?

[aboutime]

Here's a question for you, Gnostic - why do agnostics or atheists feel the need to try to get believers to question their faith? I know why believers try to get agnostics to believe - because they want to save souls. But an agnostic arguing the other way... why? Because misery loves company?


RUSS. The One, most important question I have never been able to get answered by an agnostic, or atheist is...

"IF you insist there is NO GOD.
Why must you make so much noise, and complain about something YOU INSIST...does not exist?"
(a quote from aboutime)

[darin]

You do not quite understand me.


I debate in the hope of losing it.
Learning something new, to me, is one of the greatest pleasures I can have.
In that sense, I debate to lose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTN9Nx8VYtk&feature=youtu.be

Regards
DL

That's tap-dancing. To claim victory in stuff like this - regardless - is to have a desire to win. Nobody HAS To 'win' this discussion. People sure can lose though - by logical fallacy and storming-off. They can lose by getting personally offended.


...There is no God...

[Voted4Reagan]

Here's a question for you, Gnostic - why do agnostics or atheists feel the need to try to get believers to question their faith?

It is the hypocrisy of Agnostics and Atheists... in order to increase support for their "NON-BELIEF" they have to proselytize just like those of Faith they condemn.

Agnosticism and Atheism have become that they most despise...

Religions in and unto themselves....

This renders them Hypocrites... and invalidates everything they say.

JUST IGNORE GNOGGIE FOLKS...

He is just Troll Baiting you...

[Gunny]

I see. So as long as I agree with you and your bible on all moral issues, we can debate. :lol::lol: Regards DL I hate to point out the obvious Gnostic but you're getting your ass handed to you on a silver platter. The cool part is it ain't even me doing it this time.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

And as crin said, you're loading your questions. Where in the Bible does it say it's okay to torture a baby for 6 days then kill it? I must have missed THAT Sunday School lesson.

I did not load anything. I asked a simple moral question.

I will be happy to show what prompted it after I get the answer to the question.

Why do you people fears simple questions so much?

Any child could answer what I asked.

Regards
DL



Sometimes he just can't stop it.



More of the same fear of discussion from those here.

No wonder Christianity is dying.

It does not have any apologists worthy that title.

This place, is analogist to this church and the people in it as shown at about the 9.30 mark.

You guys are like the dude in the red shirt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uxVMUwVmRE

Regards
DL

[fj1200]

I then proceeded to ask --- Is it ever moral and just to purposely torture a baby with an illness for 6 days before finally killing it?

For man, no. For God, yes (subject to definition of terms).

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Here's a question for you, Gnostic - why do agnostics or atheists feel the need to try to get believers to question their faith? I know why believers try to get agnostics to believe - because they want to save souls. But an agnostic arguing the other way... why? Because misery loves company?

No. Because they seem to follow your scriptures better than so called believers do.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
I see some of the Christian moral tenets as evil but as you can see from the dialog here, your friends are afraid to test them.

They refuse to try to correct me which would be the loving thing to do.

All they are showing is hate.

Regards
DL


That's tap-dancing. To claim victory in stuff like this - regardless - is to have a desire to win. Nobody HAS To 'win' this discussion. People sure can lose though - by logical fallacy and storming-off. They can lose by getting personally offended.

I agree that I do not want to be wrong in my thinking, in a general way, but recognize that if I am wrong, then to accept a loving correction is my best possible position and will give me the greatest pleasure n the long run.

Regards
DL


It is the hypocrisy of Agnostics and Atheists... in order to increase support for their "NON-BELIEF" they have to proselytize just like those of Faith they condemn.

Agnosticism and Atheism have become that they most despise...

Religions in and unto themselves....

This renders them Hypocrites... and invalidates everything they say.

JUST IGNORE GNOGGIE FOLKS...

He is just Troll Baiting you...

You show the usual fear of logic that I elude to in the post above with the link to Religulous. You are urging people to act like that red shirted mental coward who fears the truth and does not dare follow this scripture.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Keep your head in the sand.


Regards
DL


I hate to point out the obvious Gnostic but you're getting your ass handed to you on a silver platter. The cool part is it ain't even me doing it this time.

:laugh::laugh:

Our friend has not even answered to or spoken to the question, yet you and you see that as his win.

Wow.

Get the quote that has him even speaking to the question please. I must have missed it.

Regards
DL


For man, no. For God, yes (subject to definition of terms).

The terms seem well enough defined for you to answer.

Your bible says that we are to emulate God in all ways.

As above so below type of thinking.

How then can you have a double standard of morality where you praise God for doing what you condemn a man for doing?

If murder is not a good thing for a man to do, why is it good for God to do it under he same conditions?

Regards
DL

[fj1200]

The terms seem well enough defined for you to answer.

Your bible says that we are to emulate God in all ways.

As above so below type of thinking.

How then can you have a double standard of morality where you praise God for doing what you condemn a man for doing?

If murder is not a good thing for a man to do, why is it good for God to do it under he same conditions?

Regards
DL

If they were well enough defined 1) I wouldn't have added a proviso, 2) you would not have changed from "killing" to "murder" for example, and 3) I wouldn't have given you two answers. Your "conditions" were also completely undefined; "is it ever" has holes so large I can drive a truck through it. Nevertheless the biggest undefined term involves "purpose." Does God cause everything to occur or does he not choose to stop every bad thing that could happen? Thus there is no double standard for man and God as there is no complete understanding of God.

[Gunny]

:laugh::laugh:

Our friend has not even answered to or spoken to the question, yet you and you see that as his win.

Wow.

Get the quote that has him even speaking to the question please. I must have missed it.

Regards
DL

I see him as a sincere poster and you as an insincere one. That's a win for him to me.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

If they were well enough defined 1) I wouldn't have added a proviso, 2) you would not have changed from "killing" to "murder" for example, and 3) I wouldn't have given you two answers. Your "conditions" were also completely undefined; "is it ever" has holes so large I can drive a truck through it. Nevertheless the biggest undefined term involves "purpose." Does God cause everything to occur or does he not choose to stop every bad thing that could happen? Thus there is no double standard for man and God as there is no complete understanding of God.


You condemning the man made the killing murder did it not?

You forgiving God for the same deed makes it you forgiving God for murder.

I did define the conditions and kept them as simple as possible for clarity.

I do not mind if you complicate them.

What possible condition could you add that would exonerate God while still leaving the man guilty for the same killing, murder, or whatever you would like to call the torture an destruction of an innocent baby?

Regards
DL


I see him as a sincere poster and you as an insincere one. That's a win for him to me.

Nothing quite like a lie to cover your original show of hate. Typical Christian hypocrisy.

Regards
DL

[Gunny]

Nothing quite like a lie to cover your original show of hate. Typical Christian hypocrisy.

Regards
DL

I got news for you, Einstein ... I hate nothing. I AM a Christian and it has saved me more than once. Nothing quite like someone that doesn't participate or read the board or you'd know that. I quit hating things 30 years ago. You're just a target to me.

Your hatred on the other hand is quite obvious. You come on here once every month or so and bitch about our religion. Go take a good long look in the mirror, f*cker.

[aboutime]

A never ending example of Gnostic Hypocrisy is...the signature..."REGARDS DL" What a joke. And Gnostic actually believes all of us pay attention to the endless Dung he spews???

[Abbey Marie]

I will just say this:

I would not want to be responsible for leading anyone away from God.

(Especially a child. Jesus really doesn't like that).

[Gunny]

I will just say this:

I would not want to be responsible for leading anyone away from God.

(Especially a child. Jesus really doesn't like that).

You never lead a child away from God. THAT is evil. ANYONE that hurts a child in my book is just .... (I can't think of a good word here). I HATE people that hurt children. And I ain't nice about letting it be known. They haven't done anything.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I will just say this:

I would not want to be responsible for leading anyone away from God.

Neither would I unless it as your God.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins (http://www.debatepolicy.com/author/show/1194.Richard_Dawkins), The God Delusion (http://www.debatepolicy.com/work/quotes/3044365)

Regards
DL





You never lead a child away from God. THAT is evil. ANYONE that hurts a child in my book is just .... (I can't think of a good word here). I HATE people that hurt children. And I ain't nice about letting it be known. They haven't done anything.

???

Your own God is shown to torture and kill many innocent children and babes.

What would you tell him?

Or do you also have an immoral double moral standard that allows you to love God even more for doing what you would condemn a man for doing?

Regards
DL

[fj1200]

You condemning the man made the killing murder did it not?

You forgiving God for the same deed makes it you forgiving God for murder.

I did define the conditions and kept them as simple as possible for clarity.

I do not mind if you complicate them.

What possible condition could you add that would exonerate God while still leaving the man guilty for the same killing, murder, or whatever you would like to call the torture an destruction of an innocent baby?

Regards
DL

That's an interesting way to admit that your terms were not "well defined." :unsure:

Besides you're making assumptions about what I "condemn," "forgive," "praise," etc. and you're also assigning a purpose to God based on your's, and my own, limited understanding of God. What you've done is create a scenario without specifics where you are able to condemn no matter what answer is presented to you. It doesn't sound like you're living up to your goal of "losing" to gain knowledge.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

That's an interesting way to admit that your terms were not "well defined." :unsure:

Besides you're making assumptions about what I "condemn," "forgive," "praise," etc. and you're also assigning a purpose to God based on your's, and my own, limited understanding of God. What you've done is create a scenario without specifics where you are able to condemn no matter what answer is presented to you. It doesn't sound like you're living up to your goal of "losing" to gain knowledge.

I went by what you put, and I am not here to throw a fight. I am here to have you earn your win and you have yet to do so.

I set no purpose at all for God. Where did that come form?

I also have no need or want to talk about what we understand of God as that has nothing to do with the issue or people forgiving God for what thy condemn men for.

If you want to define the situation I put in a more complicated way then do so.

My point of an immoral double standard has been shown.

Regards
DL

[Gunny]

???

Your own God is shown to torture and kill many innocent children and babes.

What would you tell him?

Or do you also have an immoral double moral standard that allows you to love God even more for doing what you would condemn a man for doing?

Regards
DL

Seems to me when you're getting your ass handed to you by EVERYONE you might want to consider your stance? None of us are the same religion, nor do we get along about most things ... except YOU are full of it. You've been handed your ass by all walks of life here. Might be a clue in that.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Seems to me when you're getting your ass handed to you by EVERYONE you might want to consider your stance? None of us are the same religion, nor do we get along about most things ... except YOU are full of it. You've been handed your ass by all walks of life here. Might be a clue in that.

Indeed.

The clue that your sense of discernment is not worth much as you have not shown where what you say happened.

That or you are just a liar.

Show the argument that did me in or stop lying.

Regards
DL

[aboutime]

Indeed.

The clue that your sense of discernment is not worth much as you have not shown where what you say happened.

That or you are just a liar.

Show the argument that did me in or stop lying.

Regards
DL


Gnostic. No need for anyone to show you an argument in any case. You did yourself in by insisting only you are to be listened to, followed, and blindly accepted as the messenger with the LAST WORD.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Gnostic. No need for anyone to show you an argument in any case. You did yourself in by insisting only you are to be listened to, followed, and blindly accepted as the messenger with the LAST WORD.

Get the quote or be seen for the liar you are.

Regards
DL

[aboutime]

Get the quote or be seen for the liar you are.

Regards
DL


No need. YOU just proved it by feeling so compelled to respond, and defend something you can't.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

:lame2:

As I said above. You guys are just like that guy in the red shirt hat church.

Regards
DL

[aboutime]

:lame2:

As I said above. You guys are just like that guy in the red shirt hat church.

Regards
DL


Say whatever you want. But we all see how YOU...didn't DENY what I told you.

[tailfins]

Seems to me when you're getting your ass handed to you by EVERYONE you might want to consider your stance? None of us are the same religion, nor do we get along about most things ... except YOU are full of it. You've been handed your ass by all walks of life here. Might be a clue in that.

He's no further off base than a Catholic. Mormon. Muslim or Atheist. They all lead to the lake of fire.

[Gunny]

He's no further off base than a Catholic. Mormon. Muslim or Atheist. They all lead to the lake of fire.

There are many pathways to the top of the mountain. In case you haven't noticed, I may have an opinion but I don't judge others unless they're judging me. I think some of the crap I read is stupid, but I'd rather not hurt someone's feelings for nothing. God is God. The alpha and the omega. What he calls Himself to others is not for me to say.

And If you want call names, Moses, David, and Joshua were warriors. If they're going to Hell I guess I'm along for the ride.

[darin]

He's no further off base than a Catholic. Mormon. Muslim or Atheist. They all lead to the lake of fire.

...in which all things are made new; and God reconciles all to himself. :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBM2XDOX94Q

Think about it.

[fj1200]

I went by what you put, and I am not here to throw a fight. I am here to have you earn your win and you have yet to do so.

I set no purpose at all for God. Where did that come form?

I also have no need or want to talk about what we understand of God as that has nothing to do with the issue or people forgiving God for what thy condemn men for.

If you want to define the situation I put in a more complicated way then do so.

My point of an immoral double standard has been shown.

Regards
DL

This is why you ask loaded questions. You change terms mid stream, you don't define terms up front, you change the definition of terms you use mid argument, etc. and then when someone can't disprove your already derived conclusion you claim your point "has been shown." Nothing could be further from the truth. To that point you're apparently arguing that God "purposely" did something but haven't posited something that he actually did.

Lastly you "have no need or want to talk about what we understand of God" and say it has nothing to do with the argument but it is exactly the point of the argument. You browbeat others by taking the bible literally on the one hand but rejecting the bible as a whole and within context on the other. You can't have it both ways and have a discussion of the nature of God. You say you're trying to have a discussion but you're completely set up to avoid the actual discussion when it arises. This is why you don't get anywhere here... and other places too I imagine.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

This is why you ask loaded questions. You change terms mid stream, you don't define terms up front, you change the definition of terms you use mid argument, etc. and then when someone can't disprove your already derived conclusion you claim your point "has been shown." Nothing could be further from the truth. To that point you're apparently arguing that God "purposely" did something but haven't posited something that he actually did.

Lastly you "have no need or want to talk about what we understand of God" and say it has nothing to do with the argument but it is exactly the point of the argument. You browbeat others by taking the bible literally on the one hand but rejecting the bible as a whole and within context on the other. You can't have it both ways and have a discussion of the nature of God. You say you're trying to have a discussion but you're completely set up to avoid the actual discussion when it arises. This is why you don't get anywhere here... and other places too I imagine.

The terms were clear as you gave an answer.

You forgave God for what you condemned in a man.

Your immoral double standard of morality is noted above for all to see.

You have been trying to back pedal, deflect ad go to the personal from the time you put it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SocczClb4U

Regards
DL
Regards
DL

[fj1200]

The terms were clear as you gave an answer.

You forgave God for what you condemned in a man.

Your immoral double standard of morality is noted above for all to see.

You have been trying to back pedal, deflect ad go to the personal from the time you put it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SocczClb4U

Regards
DL
Regards
DL

You prove my point. :(

[aboutime]

The terms were clear as you gave an answer.

You forgave God for what you condemned in a man.

Your immoral double standard of morality is noted above for all to see.

You have been trying to back pedal, deflect ad go to the personal from the time you put it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SocczClb4U

Regards
DL
Regards
DL




WRONG AGAIN GNostic Idiot. None of us have to forgive God. But you, on the other hand, are the reason GOD has a great sense of Humor, and uses you to demonstrate how unendingly funny you are.

[Russ]

No. Because they seem to follow your scriptures better than so called believers do.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
I see some of the Christian moral tenets as evil but as you can see from the dialog here, your friends are afraid to test them.

They refuse to try to correct me which would be the loving thing to do.

All they are showing is hate.



As always, you are wrong. Non-believers don't know the scriptures at all. They just scan through the scriptures to look for verses that they can take out of context while they make some anti-Christian argument.

I, and the other people on the board here, are not afraid to test anything. We just are firm in our faith, and are not going to be led astray by some pesky argument-monger and misery-loves-company, faithless twit like you.

I'd say you are the one showing hate. What could be more hateful than trying to harm someone else's faith. You are on an evil path, Gnostic, and I don't think it will end well.

[aboutime]

As always, you are wrong. Non-believers don't know the scriptures at all. They just scan through the scriptures to look for verses that they can take out of context while they make some anti-Christian argument.

I, and the other people on the board here, are not afraid to test anything. We just are firm in our faith, and are not going to be led astray by some pesky argument-monger and misery-loves-company, faithless twit like you.

I'd say you are the one showing hate. What could be more hateful than trying to harm someone else's faith. You are on an evil path, Gnostic, and I don't think it will end well.



Totally agree Russ. And, with your on-the-money comment above. May I add how Gnostic gives me the uneasy feeling his representation of ISIS here on DP has failed miserably? There might be a beheading coming his way...preaching his hatred, and failing with every attempt to impress himself with hypocrisy.

[Gunny]

Totally agree Russ. And, with your on-the-money comment above. May I add how Gnostic gives me the uneasy feeling his representation of ISIS here on DP has failed miserably? There might be a beheading coming his way...preaching his hatred, and failing with every attempt to impress himself with hypocrisy.

I don't want them to cut his head off. HIS HANDS. Then he can't type his miserable, duplicitous crap.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

"Non-believers don't know the scriptures at all."

Surveys and statistics say otherwise.

Regards
DL

[darin]

As always, you are wrong. Non-believers don't know the scriptures at all. They just scan through the scriptures to look for verses that they can take out of context while they make some anti-Christian argument.



Do you concede Christians do that too? At least those who claim a certain level of Christianity.

I think the problem is self-proclaimed 'believers'. See - from a "time" aspect, everyone is a believer, because every knee will bow and all that stuff. From our limited perspective none of that has happened 'yet' , but to God who is outside of the constraints of our perception of time that has/is/did happen already. See, here's what I struggle with.

Christ was not a christian. Not like we think about Christianity. Christ was unpredictable to even his closest followers/friends in many ways.

Regardless of the concept of 'salvation' humans adopt there are a few trump cards:

1. God IS Love.
2. Jesus is God - Jesus is Love.
3. Grace = Unfair. People say "God is JUST and therefore WILL send people to eternal hell." Grace means to give something to somebody NOT according to what they deserve. I ask 'Which is greater - God's Justice OR his Grace.
3. God IS a consuming Fire. What does God's fire consume? Hell and Death - and both shall be no-more. Shall be NO. MORE. Means hell/the grave/all that. That will be consumed and shall no longer exist. That sorta puts the kabash on the idea of eternal punishment. At least to me.

[Abbey Marie]

Gnostic's daily routine:

1. Wake up
2. Think of ways to turn people away from God
3. Search the Internet for places to accomplish step #2
4. Reflect on a day well-spent

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Gnostic's daily routine:

1. Wake up
2. Think of ways to turn people away from God
3. Search the Internet for places to accomplish step #2
4. Reflect on a day well-spent

Yep. While other advocate for this God.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins (http://www.debatepolicy.com/author/show/1194.Richard_Dawkins), The God Delusion (http://www.debatepolicy.com/work/quotes/3044365)

Regards
DL

[Gunny]

"Non-believers don't know the scriptures at all."

Surveys and statistics say otherwise.

Regards
DL

You'd be surprised, junior. I can quote from the bible. I'm just not on here pushing BS like you are. Someone mentioned all you do is misconstrue crap and I completely agree with that. You twist everything. You do it on purpose and your motive is obvious. There's NOTHING sneaky, cool, nor intelligent about your snake in the grass crap. All you're trying to do is screw with people. You offer nothing else to a conversation.

People like you piss me off. You screw with others just to screw with them. Because you can hide on the internet. That makes you a coward and a liar. So what do you think you're proving 'round here?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

You'd be surprised, junior. I can quote from the bible. I'm just not on here pushing BS like you are. Someone mentioned all you do is misconstrue crap and I completely agree with that. You twist everything. You do it on purpose and your motive is obvious. There's NOTHING sneaky, cool, nor intelligent about your snake in the grass crap. All you're trying to do is screw with people. You offer nothing else to a conversation.

People like you piss me off. You screw with others just to screw with them. Because you can hide on the internet. That makes you a coward and a liar. So what do you think you're proving 'round here?

Truth pisses fools off for sure and there are many fools here.

If I did the misconstruing of facts the way you say I do, then the fools would argue against me.
They do not as they cannot.

All they can do is pop there heads out of the sand, throw a few insults and slink away with their tails tucked.

Look at the posts where insults are given without any reference to the topic and see how many thank those posts get.

That is the kind of men that your religion has created.

You may well know your bible but you are the exception according to surveys an statistics.
That would also mean that you do not have their excuse for following an immoral creed.

Regards
DL

[Russ]

"Non-believers don't know the scriptures at all."

Surveys and statistics say otherwise.



Ha! Surveys and statistics can say anything you want them to, 99% of the time.

[Black Diamond]

Ha! Surveys and statistics can say anything you want them to, 99% of the time.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Mark Twain.

[Russ]

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
―Richard Dawkins (http://www.debatepolicy.com/author/show/1194.Richard_Dawkins), The God Delusion (http://www.debatepolicy.com/work/quotes/3044365)


Surveys have shown that every faithless twit in the world eventually quotes Richard Dawkins. :slap:

[Russ]

Truth pisses fools off for sure and there are many fools here.

If I did the misconstruing of facts the way you say I do, then the fools would argue against me.
They do not as they cannot.

All they can do is pop there heads out of the sand, throw a few insults and slink away with their tails tucked.

Look at the posts where insults are given without any reference to the topic and see how many thank those posts get.

That is the kind of men that your religion has created.

You may well know your bible but you are the exception according to surveys an statistics.
That would also mean that you do not have their excuse for following an immoral creed.


It is pathetic the way you rapid-fire out these baseless statements that apparently you think sound like facts, but are really just moronic ramblings. They are not worth countering, because they are just so stupid.
:poke: