American bombs are still buried under German towns. And they're blowing up.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://www.theweek.com/articles/603635/american-bombs-are-still-buried-under-german-towns-theyre-blowing

American bombs are still buried under German towns. And they're blowing up.
Adam Higginbotham

On March 15, 1945, the first of more than 1,300 bombers crossed the Channel coast north of Amsterdam at an altitude of almost five miles. They flew on into Germany, and around 2:40 p.m., 10 miles northwest of Berlin, the city of Oranienburg appeared beneath them. Sitting in the lead plane, the bombardier stared through his bombsight into the haze below. Five bombs tumbled into the sky.

Between 1940 and 1945, U.S. and British air forces dropped 2.7 million tons of bombs on Europe, half of them on Germany. By the time the Nazi government surrendered, in May 1945, the industrial infrastructure of the Third Reich — railheads, arms factories, and oil refineries — had been crippled, and dozens of cities across Germany had been reduced to moonscapes of cinder and ash.

Under Allied occupation, reconstruction began almost immediately. Yet as many as 10 percent of the bombs dropped by Allied aircraft had failed to explode, and as East and West Germany rose from the ruins of the Reich, thousands of tons of unexploded airborne ordnance lay beneath them. In both East and West, responsibility for defusing these bombs — and for removing the innumerable hand grenades, bullets, and mortar and artillery shells left behind — fell to police bomb-disposal technicians and firefighters, the KMBD.

Even now, 70 years later, more than 2,000 tons of unexploded munitions are uncovered on German soil every year. Before any construction project begins in Germany, the ground must be certified as cleared of unexploded ordnance. Last May, some 20,000 people were evacuated from an area of Cologne while authorities removed a 1-ton bomb that had been discovered during construction work. In November 2013, another 20,000 people in Dortmund were cleared out while experts defused a 4,000-pound "blockbuster" — a bomb that could destroy most of a city block. In 2011, 45,000 people were forced to leave their homes — the largest evacuation in Germany since World War II — when a drought revealed a similar device lying on the bed of the Rhine in the middle of Koblenz.

German bomb-disposal squads are among the busiest in the world. Eleven bomb technicians have been killed in Germany since 2000, including three in 2010 who died in a single explosion while trying to defuse a 1,000-pound bomb on the site of a popular flea market in Göttingen.

Early one winter morning, Horst Reinhardt, chief of the Brandenburg state KMBD, told me that when he started in bomb disposal in 1986, he never believed he would still be at it almost 30 years later. Yet his men discover more than 500 tons of unexploded munitions every year and defuse an aerial bomb every two weeks or so. "People simply don't know that there's still that many bombs under the ground," he said.

In one city in his district, the events of 70 years ago ensure that unexploded bombs remain a daily menace. The place looks ordinary enough: a drab main street, pastel-painted apartment houses, a McDonald's. Yet, according to Reinhardt, Oranienburg is the most dangerous city in Germany.

Between 2:51 and 3:36 p.m. on March 15, 1945, more than 600 aircraft of the Eighth Air Force dropped 1,500 tons of high explosives over Oranienburg, a cluster of strategic targets including rail yards, a Heinkel aircraft plant, and two factories run by the chemical conglomerate Auergesellschaft.

As one squadron of B-17s followed another, almost 5,000 500- and 1,000-pound bombs fell across the rail yards, the chemical factory, and into the residential streets nearby. These bomb loads were unlike almost any others the Air Force dropped over Germany during the war. The majority of the bombs were armed not with percussion fuses, which explode on impact, but with time-delay fuses. The sophisticated, chemical-based fuses were intended to be used sparingly; U.S. Air Force guidelines recommended fitting them in no more than 10 percent of bombs in any given attack. But for reasons that have never become clear, almost every bomb dropped during the March 15 raid on Oranienburg was armed with one.

Screwed into a bomb's tail beneath its stabilizing fins, the fuse contained a small glass capsule of corrosive acetone mounted above a stack of paper-thin celluloid disks. The disks held back a spring-loaded firing pin, cocked behind a detonator. As the bomb fell, it tilted nose-down, and a windmill in the tail stabilizer began spinning in the slipstream, turning a crank that broke the glass capsule. The bomb was designed to hit the ground nose-down, so the acetone would drip toward the disks and begin eating through them. This could take minutes or days, depending on the concentration of acetone and the number of disks. When the last disk weakened and snapped, the spring was released, the firing pin struck the priming charge, and — finally, unexpectedly — the bomb exploded.

Around 3 o'clock that afternoon, a B-17 released a 1,000-pound bomb some 20,000 feet above the rail yards. Quickly reaching terminal velocity, it fell southwest, missing the yards and the chemical plants, hurtling instead toward the canal and the two bridges connecting Oranienburg and the suburb of Lehnitz. Before the war this had been a quiet spot beside the water, leading to four villas among the trees. But now it was occupied by anti-aircraft guns and a pair of narrow, single-story wooden barracks. This was where the bomb finally found the earth — plunging into the sandy soil at more than 150 miles per hour before coming to rest deep underground, nose up.

As the shadows of the trees on Lehnitzstrasse lengthened in the low winter sun, acetone dripped slowly from the shattered glass capsule within the bomb's fuse. Taken by gravity, it trickled harmlessly downward, away from the celluloid disks it was supposed to weaken.

Less than two months later, Nazi leaders capitulated. In the months following V-E Day that May, a woman who had been bombed out of her home found her way, with her young son, out to Oranienburg. The town was a constellation of yawning craters and gutted factories, but not far from the canal, she found a small wooden barracks empty and intact. She moved in with her boyfriend and her son.

Paule Dietrich bought the house on the cul-de-sac in Oranienburg in 1993. He and the German Democratic Republic had been born on the same day, Oct. 7, 1949, and for a while the coincidence seemed auspicious. When he turned 10, he and a dozen or so other children who shared the birthday were taken to tea with President Wilhelm Pieck. At 20, he and the others were guests at the opening of the Berlin TV tower, the tallest building in all of Germany. Over the next 20 years, the republic was good to him. He drove buses and subway trains for the Berlin transit authority. He was given an apartment, and he became a taxi driver.

In nearby Oranienburg, where his mother had lived since the 1960s, Dietrich met an elderly lady who was trying to sell a small wooden house down by the canal — an old Wehrmacht barracks she'd lived in since the war. It needed a lot of work, but it was right by the water. Dietrich sold his car and mobile home to buy it and began working on it whenever he could. His girlfriend and Willi, their only son, joined him, and slowly the house came together. By 2005, it was finished — with a garage, a new bathroom, and a brick fireplace. Dietrich began living there full-time from May to December and planned to move in permanently when he retired.

Like everyone else in Oranienburg, he knew the city had been bombed during the war, but so had a lot of places in Germany. And parts of Oranienburg were evacuated so frequently that it was easy to believe there couldn't be many bombs left. Most people simply preferred not to think about it.

The state of Brandenburg, however, knew Oranienburg presented a unique problem. Between 1996 and 2007, the local government spent nearly $50 million on bomb disposal — more than any other town in Germany. In 2006, the state's ministry of the interior commissioned Wolfgang Spyra of the Brandenburg University of Technology to determine how many unexploded bombs might remain in the city. Spyra calculated that 326 bombs — 57 tons of high-explosive ordnance — remained hidden beneath the city's streets and yards.

The celluloid disks in the timing mechanisms had become brittle with age and acutely sensitive to vibration and shock, and the bombs had begun to go off spontaneously. A decayed fuse of this type was responsible for the deaths of the three KMBD technicians in Göttingen in 2010. They had dug out the bomb, but weren't touching it when it went off.

In January 2013, Dietrich read in the newspaper that the city of Oranienburg was going to start looking for bombs in his neighborhood. He had to fill out some forms, and in July, city contractors arrived. They drilled 38 holes in his yard, each more than 30 feet deep, and dropped a magnetometer into every one. A month later, they drilled more holes. They were zeroing in on something, but didn't say what.

It was nine in the morning on Oct. 7, 2013 — the day Dietrich turned 64 — when a delegation of city officials arrived at his front gate. "There's something here," the officials told him. "We need to get at it." Nobody used the word "bomb."

They marked the spot beside the house with an orange traffic cone and prepared to pump out groundwater from around it. Throughout October, the contractors had pumps running round the clock. They started digging at 7 every morning and stayed until 8 every night. They drank coffee in Dietrich's carport. "Paule," they said, "this will be no problem."

It took them another month to uncover the bomb, more than 12 feet down: 1,000 pounds, big as a man, rusted, its tail stabilizer gone. They shored up the hole with steel plates and chained the bomb so it couldn't move. Every night, Dietrich stayed in the house with his German shepherd, Rocky. They slept with their heads just a few feet from the hole.

On Nov. 19, the contractors were drinking coffee when their boss arrived. "Paule, you need to take your dog and get off the property immediately," he said.

Dietrich took his TV set and his dog and drove to his girlfriend's house. The streets around his house were sealed off. Two days later, he heard on the news that the KMBD said the bomb couldn't be defused; it would have to be detonated. He was walking with Rocky in the forest a mile away when he heard the explosion.

Two hours later, when the all-clear siren sounded, Dietrich drove over to his place with a friend and his son. He could barely speak. Where his house had once stood was a crater more than 60 feet across, filled with water and scorched debris. The wreckage of Dietrich's front porch leaned precariously at the edge of the crater. Dietrich wiped away tears. He was less than a year from retirement.

Sitting at a small table, Dietrich chain-smoked Chesterfields. He said he realized that he and his family had been lucky: Every summer, his grandchildren had played in a plastic pool near wher

[revelarts]

Similar situation in Iraq. especially near the iranian boarders.

Plus in Iraq we used depleted uranium shells.
It's already known to have cause many birth defects and illnesses is expected to cause many more because there's no way to clean it all up.

[Drummond]

Similar situation in Iraq. especially near the iranian boarders.

Plus in Iraq we used depleted uranium shells.
It's already known to have cause many birth defects and illnesses is expected to cause many more because there's no way to clean it all up.

Nice little attempted guilt trip, there, Rev ... a speciality of the Left.

I for one will never feel a moment's regret for the 2003 Iraq war. Nor for WWII, either. 'War Is Hell' ... but there are nonetheless just wars. Both I've mentioned most certainly qualify as such, and if neither had been fought as they were, then in each case, brutal dictators would've won out.

A pity that you're unable to celebrate our victories over them ... eh ?

[namvet]

I don't know how many fell on England but they still find em buried today. its a worldwide problem

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Similar situation in Iraq. especially near the iranian boarders.

Plus in Iraq we used depleted uranium shells.
It's already known to have cause many birth defects and illnesses is expected to cause many more because there's no way to clean it all up.

Before you get all worked up Rev, perhaps you'd be better served if you factored in who started each of those wars and then notice also that the right side won.. -Tyr

[Drummond]

I don't know how many fell on England but they still find em buried today. its a worldwide problem

Very true. 'Finds' of them are becoming ever rarer, but they still happen. Only a couple of days ago, Victoria Station in central London had to be evacuated because an unexploded bomb had been found nearby. Considering how many fell on London, they'll still be finding more, decades from now.

See ....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3433296/Victoria-station-evacuated-unexploded-WW2-bomb-discovered-building-site.html


London Victoria station has been evacuated this morning after an unexploded Second World War bomb was discovered at a nearby building site.

Thousands of people were ordered out of both the mainline rail and Tube stations while police attended the scene.

The entrance was cordoned off with tape and police cars as crowds gathered outside amid the dramatic scenes.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8359&stc=1


I hope Rev wouldn't like to suggest that we should've allowed Hitler to win ?

[Drummond]

Before you get all worked up Rev, perhaps you'd be better served if you factored in who started each of those wars and then notice also that the right side won.. -Tyr:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

[jimnyc]

I don't have an issue with the left over stuff. It sucks, but war is hell. While I'm sure we dropped the overwhelming majority, it wasn't just the USA in Iraq. And it's something that countries use all over, for better or worse.

-----

Ammunition

Most military use of depleted uranium has been as 30 mm caliber ordnance, primarily the 30 mm PGU-14/B armour-piercing incendiary round from the GAU-8 Avenger cannon of the A-10 Thunderbolt II used by the United States Air Force. 25 mm DU rounds have been used in the M242 gun mounted on the U.S. Army's Bradley Fighting Vehicle and the Marine Corps's LAV-25.

The U.S. Marine Corps uses DU in the 25 mm PGU-20 round fired by the GAU-12 Equalizer cannon of the AV-8B Harrier, and also in the 20 mm M197 gun mounted on AH-1 Cobra helicopter gunships. The United States Navy's Phalanx CIWS's M61 Vulcan Gatling gun used 20 mm armor-piercing penetrator rounds with discarding plastic sabots made using depleted uranium, later changed to tungsten.

Another use of depleted uranium is in kinetic energy penetrators, anti-armor rounds such as the 120 mm sabot rounds fired from the British Challenger 1, Challenger 2,[33] M1A1 and M1A2 Abrams.[34] Kinetic energy penetrator rounds consist of a long, relatively thin penetrator surrounded by a discarding sabot. Staballoys are metal alloys of depleted uranium with a very small proportion of other metals, usually titanium or molybdenum. One formulation has a composition of 99.25% by mass of depleted uranium and 0.75% by mass of titanium. Staballoys are approximately 1.67 times as dense as lead and are designed for use in kinetic energy penetrator armor-piercing ammunition. The US Army uses DU in an alloy with around 3.5% titanium.
1987 photo of Mark 149 Mod 2 20mm depleted uranium ammunition for the Phalanx CIWS aboard USS Missouri.

According to 2005 research,[35] at least some of the most promising tungsten alloys that have been considered as replacement for depleted uranium in penetrator ammunitions, such as tungsten-cobalt or tungsten-nickel-cobalt alloys, also possess extreme carcinogenic properties, which by far exceed those (confirmed or suspected) of depleted uranium itself: 100% of rats implanted with a pellet of such alloys developed lethal rhabdomyosarcoma within a few weeks.

Depleted uranium is favored for the penetrator because it is self-sharpening and flammable.[31] On impact with a hard target, such as an armored vehicle, the nose of the rod fractures in such a way that it remains sharp. The impact and subsequent release of heat energy causes it to ignite.[31] When a DU penetrator reaches the interior of an armored vehicle it catches fire, often igniting ammunition and fuel, killing the crew and possibly causing the vehicle to explode. DU is used by the U.S. Army in 120 mm or 105 mm cannons employed on the M1 Abrams tank. The Russian military has used DU ammunition in tank main gun ammunition since the late 1970s, mostly for the 115 mm guns in the T-62 tank and the 125 mm guns in the T-64, T-72, T-80, and T-90 tanks.

The DU content in various ammunition is 180 g in 20 mm projectiles, 200 g in 25 mm ones, 280 g in 30 mm, 3.5 kg in 105 mm, and 4.5 kg in 120 mm penetrators. DU was used during the mid-1990s in the U.S. to make hand grenades, cluster bombs, and land mines, but those applications have been discontinued, according to Alliant Techsystems.[citation needed] The US Navy used DU in its 20 mm Phalanx CIWS guns, but switched in the late 1990s to armor-piercing tungsten.

It is thought that between 17 and 20 countries have weapons incorporating depleted uranium in their arsenals. They include the U.S., the UK, France, Russia, China, India, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Bahrain, Egypt, Kuwait, Pakistan, Thailand, Iraq and Taiwan.[citation needed] Iran also has performed wide research on DU penetrators since 2001[citation needed]. DU ammunition is manufactured in 18 countries. Only the US and the UK have acknowledged using DU weapons.[36]

In a three-week period of conflict in Iraq during 2003, it was estimated that over 1000 tons of depleted uranium munitions were used.[37]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium#Ammunition

[revelarts]

Nice little attempted guilt trip, there, Rev ... a speciality of the Left.
I for one will never feel a moment's regret for the 2003 Iraq war. Nor for WWII, either. 'War Is Hell' ... but there are nonetheless just wars. Both I've mentioned most certainly qualify as such, and if neither had been fought as they were, then in each case, brutal dictators would've won out. A pity that you're unable to celebrate our victories over them ... eh ?

Is what mentioned false?
no.

I guess you just feel it was all justified somehow.
Yes, Iraq had a brutal dictator. But now they have Isis in much of the country as well as live and spent radioactive munitions scattered across it. It has a weak corrupt gov't with more ties to Iran than before, 100s of thousands of dead and displaced Iraqis, and a once solid infrastructure blown to crap.

But OK you still might think the Iraqi people are better off because we used radioactive munitions that we DID NOT have to use to get the "victory" we see today.
well we disagree.

BTW I do celebrate the WWII victory. but i don't see you berating Tyr for bringing up a negative consequence of that war.
Drummond It doesn't diminish or smear a REAL victory to admit that there are negatives to be aware of and deal with.
And it doesn't show the strength of our nation if we try to justified ALL our actions. we should admit and do better next time even if we can't "fix" the problems we've caused. thats what STRONG people and countries do it seems to me.



Before you get all worked up Rev, perhaps you'd be better served if you factored in who started each of those wars and then notice also that the right side won.. -Tyr

Uh yes, Bush started the war with Iraq.
Saddam never attacked us or our allies. Bush had to make up a NEW way for the U.S. to get into war , it's now called "the BUSH Doctrine" a so called pre emptive war. What used to be called invading another country.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Is what mentioned false?
no.

I guess you just feel it was all justified somehow.
Yes, Iraq had a brutal dictator. But now they have Isis in much of the country as well as live and spent radioactive munitions scattered across it. It has a weak corrupt gov't with more ties to Iran than before, 10s of thousands of dead and displaced Iraqis, and a once solid infrastructure blown to crap.

But OK you still might think the Iraqi people are better off because we used radioactive munitions that we DID NOT have to use to get the "victory" we see today.
well we disagree.

BTW I do celebrate the WWII victory. but i don't see you berating Tyr for bringing up a negative consequence of that war.
Drummond It doesn't diminish or smear a REAL victory to admit that there are negatives to be aware of and deal with.
And it doesn't show the strength of our nation if we try to justified ALL our actions. we should admit and do better next time even if we can't "fix" the problems we've caused. thats what STRONG people and countries do it seems to me.




Uh yes, Bush started the war with Iraq.
Saddam never attacked us or our allies. Bush had to make up a NEW way for the U.S. to get into war , it's now called "the BUSH Doctrine" a so called pre emptive war. What used to be called invading another country.


Uh yes, Bush started the war with Iraq.
Saddam never attacked us or our allies. Bush had to make up a NEW way for the U.S. to get into war , it's now called "the BUSH Doctrine" a so called pre emptive war. What used to be called invading another country.

^^^^^^^^^^^^ WRONG!!! SADDAM STARTED IT AND FOR THE REASONS PRESENTED HERE HUNDREDS OF TIMES BY AT LEAST A DOZEN DIFFERENT CONSERVATIVE MEMBERS.
I will not trouble myself to repeat those reasons as you've argued against them every time they have been cited.-Tyr

[jimnyc]

I wonder, if say 5 years down the road from now, if we'll see complaints about ISIS and other terror groups, and how much stuff they left behind. It's weird now when many will jump all over their own country, and pay little attention to terrorists. I just can't get that through my thick skull. And it's not just one person, I've seen others do the same, and not just here. But how can folks be so loud and openly spoken about their own country and their own military, but seem to prefer to ignore, or want to leave the terrorists alone. So much so that even 12 years of resolutions are completely forgotten, dictators get passes, the past is forgotten and the USA are the bad guys - while the terrorists thrive.

Sorry, I don't give a flying fuck for them. They antagonized and ignored and played games. They got what was coming. This ended up with a shitload of ammunition landing on them. Shock and awe left behind a lot of shock and awe. It's solely on the bloody hands of those who flipped their noses at the world for 12 years. My heart bleeds for them. At least until I shake my head and realize I was day dreaming, and that my heart thinks nothing of them.

And no, I'm not debating the Iraq war again with anyone. So if anyone reads what I wrote and doesn't like it, sorry about that! :cheers2:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I wonder, if say 5 years down the road from now, if we'll see complaints about ISIS and other terror groups, and how much stuff they left behind. It's weird now when many will jump all over their own country, and pay little attention to terrorists. I just can't get that through my thick skull. And it's not just one person, I've seen others do the same, and not just here. But how can folks be so loud and openly spoken about their own country and their own military, but seem to prefer to ignore, or want to leave the terrorists alone. So much so that even 12 years of resolutions are completely forgotten, dictators get passes, the past is forgotten and the USA are the bad guys - while the terrorists thrive.

Sorry, I don't give a flying fuck for them. They antagonized and ignored and played games. They got what was coming. This ended up with a shitload of ammunition landing on them. Shock and awe left behind a lot of shock and awe. It's solely on the bloody hands of those who flipped their noses at the world for 12 years. My heart bleeds for them. At least until I shake my head and realize I was day dreaming, and that my heart thinks nothing of them.

And no, I'm not debating the Iraq war again with anyone. So if anyone reads what I wrote and doesn't like it, sorry about that! :cheers2:

Did you ever notice how Rev seems to not recall Saddam blowing up all those oil fields in Kuwait??
As if that wasn't some major pollution and lasting crap to deal with. And that pollution spread across the world for months and months.
Very, Very Selective outrage on his part methinks.....-Tyr

[jimnyc]

Did you ever notice how Rev seems to not recall Saddam blowing up all those oil fields in Kuwait??
As if that wasn't some major pollution and lasting crap to deal with. And that pollution spread across the world for months and months.
Very, Very Selective outrage on his part methinks.....-Tyr

There were all kinds of things that Saddam and Iraq were supposed to do, and to return, that were all planned out after 1991 and in various resolutions. They were cool with this at the time, and then ignored the world for 12 years.

"It's ok that Saddam killed his own people, because it was less people than have died in the war"
"We should have left the dictator in place, as good folks in office lead to death"
"Ignore the weapons that Saddam had, were 100% accounted for..."
"Then also ignore the fact that these very same TONS of chemical weapons disappeared"
"ignore the people tied at their hands and feets and pushed off buildings"
"While I defend homosexuals and their rights here, I'll be quiet as they try to kill every one of them in Iraq"

^^ These are the things I see/hear over the years, here and at other places. Odd stuff man, just odd.

[revelarts]

I don't have an issue with the left over stuff. It sucks, but war is hell. While I'm sure we dropped the overwhelming majority, it wasn't just the USA in Iraq. And it's something that countries use all over, for better or worse.

-----..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium#Ammunition

The thing is many inside the U.S. military are also affected by these munitions including their children being born with deformities.
AND Prior to it's use, there had been recommendations NOT to use those types of munitions by Military doctors and others but the officials in leadership were like you . They didn't really care how many innocent people would get deformities and illnesses for the next few generations or longer. OR that our own troops would be have to deal with similar. they thought it was worth it to make war MORE hellish.

Also the U.N. and many other countries have decided not to use it or banned it all together because it is so bad. But we've decided it's worth it.
I'd ask you to do a google image search for D.U. deformities or depleted uranium deformities.
It may be to emotional... or not... but maybe a look something like
U.S. soldiers Daughter of Soldier Contaminated with Depleted Uranium in Iraq Born with Deformities
(http://www.democracynow.org/2004/9/30/daughter_of_soldier_contaminated_with_depleted)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-center-for-constitutional-rights/iraqi-birth-defects-cover_b_4046442.html

U.S. military Dr Doug Rokke goes into some detail of the problems and the history, HE does have a problem with it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-VkpR-wka8

[jimnyc]

Also the U.N. and many other countries have decided not to use it or banned it all together because it is so bad. But we've decided it's worth it.

And even yet, as I posted, many major countries have such munitions in their arsenal. So apparently at said time, they as well felt it was worth it. But you only condemn your own country and ignore the fact that others have used it, or did use it in Iraq.

[revelarts]

Did you ever notice how Rev seems to not recall Saddam blowing up all those oil fields in Kuwait??
As if that wasn't some major pollution and lasting crap to deal with. And that pollution spread across the world for months and months.
Very, Very Selective outrage on his part methinks.....-Tyr
And even yet, as I posted, many major countries have such munitions in their arsenal. So apparently at said time, they as well felt it was worth it. But you only condemn your own country and ignore the fact that others have used it, or did use it in Iraq.



OK here we go.
You guys have even MADE UP my views.
"....But you only condemn your own country..."
"...Rev seems to not recall Saddam.."

Is that true Jim? do i only ...in other threads or in this one even "condemn" my own country.
Have i forgotten what Saddam has done Tyr?

and why is it about me anyway?

Tyr pointed out U.S munitions in Germany being a problem i point out similar in Iraq.
But don't you remember HITLER Tyr? Why do you only condemn your own country?


I just wish you guys would be honest and stop pretending that I support dictators or terrorist just because you don't like the fact that i point out REAL problems with the way the U.S. conducts business. And that we should CHANGE or FIX it.
EXACTLY LIKE YOU DO on other issues.

But hey if that's the Best you can do in reply , so be it.
It doesn't make problems or crimes or responsibilities i've mentioned go away but if it makes you feel better to attack the messenger.... well ok.

[jimnyc]

OK here we go.
You guys have even MADE UP my views.
"....But you only condemn your own country..."
"...Rev seems to not recall Saddam.."

Is that true Jim? do i only ...in other threads or in this one even "condemn" my own country.
Have i forgotten what Saddam has done Tyr?

and why is it about me anyway?

Tyr pointed out U.S munitions in Germany being a problem i point out similar in Iraq.
But don't you remember HITLER Tyr? Why do you only condemn your own country?


I just wish you guys would be honest and stop pretending that I support dictators or terrorist just because you don't like the fact that i point out REAL problems with the way the U.S. conducts business. And that we should CHANGE or FIX it.
EXACTLY LIKE YOU DO on other issues.

But hey if that's the Best you can do in reply , so be it.
It doesn't make problems or crimes or responsibilities i've mentioned go away but if it makes you feel better to attack the messenger.... well ok.

Anyone who posts here KNOWS your stance on the police, and the government. But are you as vocal, and do you start threads and such to condemn other countries, to condemn terrorists? I can only go by what you post, and then yes, base my views off of that. Do I think you actually support terrorism? Of course not. But you seem to spend a LOT more time on subjects condemning the US police and government, and a whole lot less about terrorists.

The point I was making was related to the topic, which I believe you then added Iraq onto the list - in order to condemn the USA for using such munitions - was that there was a long list of countries using such munitions, but apparently only one country was blamed that I saw.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

OK here we go.
You guys have even MADE UP my views.
"....But you only condemn your own country..."
"...Rev seems to not recall Saddam.."

Is that true Jim? do i only ...in other threads or in this one even "condemn" my own country.
Have i forgotten what Saddam has done Tyr?

and why is it about me anyway?

Tyr pointed out U.S munitions in Germany being a problem i point out similar in Iraq.
But don't you remember HITLER Tyr? Why do you only condemn your own country?


I just wish you guys would be honest and stop pretending that I support dictators or terrorist just because you don't like the fact that i point out REAL problems with the way the U.S. conducts business. And that we should CHANGE or FIX it.
EXACTLY LIKE YOU DO on other issues.

But hey if that's the Best you can do in reply , so be it.
It doesn't make problems or crimes or responsibilities i've mentioned go away but if it makes you feel better to attack the messenger.... well ok.


Tyr pointed out U.S munitions in Germany being a problem i point out similar in Iraq.
But don't you remember HITLER Tyr? Why do you [B][I]only condemn your own country?

I did not post the article to condemn anybody. I thought it interesting and an example of the high costs of wars. In your comment you seem to forget not just unexploded german bombs dropped but also entire cities that they destroyed(bombed into rubble and nations conquered etc.
I laid no guilt on anybody other than those that started both wars.
Yes, I've studied WW2 FOR OVER 4 DECADES NOW. I STILL READ UP ON WW2 EVERY CHANCE I GET WHEN FINDING NEW MATERIAL.

I RARELY EVER SPEAK ABOUT STUFF I HAVE NO GREAT KNOWLEDGE ON MY FRIEND.
Much to my many opponent 's deep chagrin.. :laugh:--Tyr

[revelarts]

Anyone who posts here KNOWS your stance on the police, and the government. But are you as vocal, and do you start threads and such to condemn other countries, to condemn terrorists? I can only go by what you post, and then yes, base my views off of that. Do I think you actually support terrorism? Of course not. But you seem to spend a LOT more time on subjects condemning the US police and government, and a whole lot less about terrorists.

The point I was making was related to the topic, which I believe you then added Iraq onto the list - in order to condemn the USA for using such munitions - was that there was a long list of countries using such munitions, but apparently only one country was blamed that I saw.

Well For one thing I live in America. And we LEAD the war in Iraq.. and hold the greatest responsibility, we used the most arms.
Seems Tyr and Drummond are ready for the US to take all the credit for the "victory" without mentioning the "coalition of the willing" either Jim. you have a problem with that?
no.

As far as more comments on police than terrorism goes. ...since you brought it up.
well one simple answer is that IN the U.S. we don't suffer from terrorism on a monthly basis. We see police everyday.
OTHER countries suffer more from terrorism far more than we do.
In the US we're still more likely to be hit by lightening than to suffer from a terror attack.

But someone on this board will probably engage with a police officer in some way within the week.
And also, unlike terrorism, the issues with the police are often ignored, denied or covered up.

No one disputes whether or not terrorism is a issue. But some seem to think there's NO real problem with policing. It's a point i try to make clear by offering examples. As Tyr and Drummond do by constantly posting info about terrorism and or muzzies ... in other countries... weekly. And unlike them i don't claim that ALL or even MOST police are subhuman, animal, beast, crazy, hate filled, monsters that must be destroyed or mankind will be lost. I just want acknowledgement of a widespread problem and reform, with Good cops rising to the top of the food chain.

sorry if my choice of topics bugs you.

But many of my post on fighting terrorism have been po pooed, dismissed and obviously completely forgotten, so why should i comment on that anymore? You many here seem to ONLY want the banning and killing of all muslims and more war until muslims are practically extinct. period. end of story. And there are only so many walls i want to bang my head against on this board.


Anyone counting the number of anti-US gun bills threads, anti U.S.budgets, Anti-Obama threads, anti U.S economics,, Anti-Obamacare, anti-U.S. education, anti-U.S. unconstitutional acts etc? Anyone else here considered as "condemning" the U.S. government.

as Tyr mentioned "selective condemnation" maybe of a member here?

[jimnyc]

as Tyr mentioned "selective condemnation" maybe of a member here?

Not really, no. I'm talking about folks that don't seem to care much about terrorism while condemning so many other things instead within their own country. Who else is doing just that? I will be more than happy to equally condemning them for doing so as well. In fact, I had felt that Noir was doing similarly, and called him out on it several times.

It's selective based on a members own words. Sorry if that bugs you.

[Drummond]

Is what mentioned false?
no.

What you mention, Rev, is highly selective. Designed to achieve a purpose of your choosing and preference. Tell me why I should play this game according to your agenda ?


Yes, Iraq had a brutal dictator. But now they have Isis in much of the country as well as live and spent radioactive munitions scattered across it. It has a weak corrupt gov't with more ties to Iran than before, 100s of thousands of dead and displaced Iraqis, and a once solid infrastructure blown to crap.

And under Saddam, had he not been successfully dealt with, it would've had a dictator capable of anything, newly bolstered by a proven realisation that he was free to do ANYTHING without incurring the proper consequences. I'm sure that by now, nobody at all would, or could, doubt the existence of an Iraqi WMD arsenal being under his control, to use to kill as the whim took him.

But he WAS successfully dealt with. Much of what followed was good .. including Iraq knowing democracy. BUT, along came a Leftie called Obama, and put an almighty spanner in the works. He made sure NOT ONLY that American forces were withdrawn, but that the arrangements to do so were publicised YEARS in advance.

So, surprise surprise. We have the emergence of ISIS. Shall I wait for your willingness to blame OBAMA for that ?

I somehow think I'll be waiting a very long time for that. Eh, Rev ?


But OK you still might think the Iraqi people are better off because we used radioactive munitions that we DID NOT have to use to get the "victory" we see today.
well we disagree.

Ah, but aren't you against EVERYTHING to do with the 2003 Iraq War ? Be honest. All you're really doing is using an excuse to shore up your more general hatred of that war.


BTW I do celebrate the WWII victory.

Do you really ? Well done !


but i don't see you berating Tyr for bringing up a negative consequence of that war.

And your reason for trying this line - considering your own claimed 'celebration' of that war - is, what, exactly ?

Perhaps 'celebrate' was putting it too strongly ? Are you sure you even used the right word ?


Drummond It doesn't diminish or smear a REAL victory to admit that there are negatives to be aware of and deal with.

But on the other hand ... why would you SEEK TO ?

A victory could be much better, overall, than any so-called 'negative' thinking about it. Imagine any victory speech given by a victorious politician, or general, following a war. Do such speeches CELEBRATE, or BERATE ?

When the Falklands conflict ended, Margaret Thatcher's message was 'REJOICE'. She didn't take any defeatist line. Why would she ? Why would anyone in that position ?


And it doesn't show the strength of our nation if we try to justified ALL our actions. we should admit and do better next time even if we can't "fix" the problems we've caused. thats what STRONG people and countries do it seems to me.

You're really keen on your displays of negativity, aren't you ? And here's something for you to chew on ... any such display HAS PROPAGANDA VALUE TO THE ENEMY, EVEN A DEFEATED ENEMY.

Consider this. A defeated force, IF given ammunition to say that its enemy was disreputable in any way, might be a defeated force that can go on to recruit again, or, to inspire others to recommence the fight. Now .. is this a GOOD, or a BAD thing .. eh, Rev ?


Uh yes, Bush started the war with Iraq.

LEFTIE CRAP. Truth be told, SADDAM started it, by defying UN Resolution after UN Resolution, notably 1441. He could've played ball, but chose the alternative instead. The 2003 invasion was a REaction to defiance from Saddam lasting years. It was ultimately inevitable.


Saddam never attacked us or our allies. Bush had to make up a NEW way for the U.S. to get into war , it's now called "the BUSH Doctrine" a so called pre emptive war. What used to be called invading another country.

What alliances did he have ? What dodgy deals was he doing ? Maybe no direct attacks, no. But he was friendly with those who wouldn't have thought twice about it. Al Qaeda, for example .. perhaps you've forgotten his SHELTERING of a key Al Q operative in the region, called Zarqawi ??

Add this to concerns about his WMD stocks. No .. Saddam's deposing was absolutely necessary. Besides, do you imagine that his actions in that region of the world, destabilising actions, were GOOD for world security .. something that the US cannot help but think of as a legitimate concern ??

[revelarts]

What you mention, Rev, is highly selective.
thread title = "American bombs are still buried under German towns. And they're blowing up."
my reply = "Similar situation in Iraq. especially near the iranian boarders. Plus in Iraq we used depleted uranium shells..."

Seems my comment is exactly parallel.




Designed to achieve a purpose of your choosing and preference. Tell me why I should play this game according to your agenda ?
the fact that it seems to provoke you into defense and justifications and into accusing me of games YET you avoid addressing the serious reality that there are in fact many today that are still suffering from our use of DU is telling.
Your reaction to a few lines of fact indicates me that you likely do see some problem with the use of DU yourself, especially when compared to our bombing in WW2



And under Saddam, had he not been successfully dealt with, it would've had a dictator capable of anything, newly bolstered by a proven realisation that he was free to do ANYTHING without incurring the proper consequences. I'm sure that by now, nobody at all would, or could, doubt the existence of an Iraqi WMD arsenal being under his control, to use to kill as the whim took him.
But he WAS successfully dealt with. Much of what followed was good .. including Iraq knowing democracy. BUT, along came a Leftie called Obama, and put an almighty spanner in the works. He made sure NOT ONLY that American forces were withdrawn, but that the arrangements to do so were publicised YEARS in advance.
So, surprise surprise. We have the emergence of ISIS. Shall I wait for your willingness to blame OBAMA for that ?
I somehow think I'll be waiting a very long time for that. Eh, Rev ?
Ah, but aren't you against EVERYTHING to do with the 2003 Iraq War ? Be honest. All you're really doing is using an excuse to shore up your more general hatred of that war.


hmm yeah, we disagree.
Concerning Obama he's got to own his part in Isis's growth But it was Brenen under Bush who did more to CREATE it when he fired Saddam's bathist army and left them without jobs or pensions. THEY became ISIS in Iraq. the Former Iraqi Army. That under Saddam had only ever attack Iran and Kuwait before our "victory".



Do you really ? Well done !
And your reason for trying this line - considering your own claimed 'celebration' of that war - is, what, exactly ?
Perhaps 'celebrate' was putting it too strongly ? Are you sure you even used the right word ?

now you question my sincerity.
well I guess i can question yours too. If we're just making things up.
I guess you are little sorry Hilter didn't have some partial victory right Drummond?




But on the other hand ... why would you SEEK TO ?
A victory could be much better, overall, than any so-called 'negative' thinking about it. Imagine any victory speech given by a victorious politician, or general, following a war. Do such speeches CELEBRATE, or BERATE ?
When the Falklands conflict ended, Margaret Thatcher's message was 'REJOICE'. She didn't take any defeatist line. Why would she ? Why would anyone in that position ?
You're really keen on your displays of negativity, aren't you ? And here's something for you to chew on ... any such display HAS PROPAGANDA VALUE TO THE ENEMY, EVEN A DEFEATED ENEMY.
Consider this. A defeated force, IF given ammunition to say that its enemy was disreputable in any way, might be a defeated force that can go on to recruit again, or, to inspire others to recommence the fight. Now .. is this a GOOD, or a BAD thing .. eh, Rev ?


I'm going to be blunt here.
ignorant, stupid or brainwashed people will believe anything even balled faced lies. ANY lying propaganda will work.
But most reasonable people of good will if given enough info will not fall for BS that trys to paint honest confessions of mistakes or wrong doing ..with corrective measures.. as weakness or a cause to fight. If the wrong is confessed and addressed what's to fight Drummond.

And by your reality, If muslims are subhumans koran bent on our destruction anyway it doesn't matter what we say on any subject good or bad. They'll still come after us. Unless you think some muslims DO care what we REALLY DO and REaLLY Say. But that'd be LEFTIE CRAP.!!!



LEFTIE CRAP. Truth be told, SADDAM started it, by defying UN Resolution after UN Resolution, notably 1441. He could've played ball, but chose the alternative instead. The 2003 invasion was a REaction to defiance from Saddam lasting years. It was ultimately inevitable.
What alliances did he have ? What dodgy deals was he doing ? Maybe no direct attacks, no. But he was friendly with those who wouldn't have thought twice about it. Al Qaeda, for example .. perhaps you've forgotten his SHELTERING of a key Al Q operative in the region, called Zarqawi ??
Add this to concerns about his WMD stocks. No .. Saddam's deposing was absolutely necessary. Besides, do you imagine that his actions in that region of the world, destabilising actions, were GOOD for world security .. something that the US cannot help but think of as a legitimate concern ??

I think you haven't taken into account the whole of the evidence.
so we disagree.

[hjmick]

Okeedokee... Now that you guys have turned this into a "You're a dick... No you're a dick... My penis is bigger than yours pissing match...


There is a very good piece in the current issue of Smithsonian magazine about unexploded ordinance in Germany. It's the one that features "The Search Fro Jesus" on the cover.

Go ahead, buy a copy, read it. Very good.


Oh nevermind...


There Are Still Thousands of Tons of Unexploded Bombs in Germany, Left Over From World War II (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/seventy-years-world-war-two-thousands-tons-unexploded-bombs-germany-180957680/)


It even has pictures...

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Okeedokee... Now that you guys have turned this into a "You're a dick... No you're a dick... My penis is bigger than yours pissing match...


There is a very good piece in the current issue of Smithsonian magazine about unexploded ordinance in Germany. It's the one that features "The Search Fro Jesus" on the cover.

Go ahead, buy a copy, read it. Very good.


Oh nevermind...


There Are Still Thousands of Tons of Unexploded Bombs in Germany, Left Over From World War II (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/seventy-years-world-war-two-thousands-tons-unexploded-bombs-germany-180957680/)


It even has pictures...

Does it ask why Germany has not spent the money to seek out and remove that ordinance?
Or why its more important for them to take in muslims spending billions on them instead?

Perhaps Rev could send them a letter asking why the money is there for the muslims but no money seems available for removing unexploded ordinance and keeping their own citizens safe..-Tyr


Okeedokee... Now that you guys have turned this into a "You're a dick... No you're a dick... My penis is bigger than yours pissing match...

By the way, I did no penis measuring myself. I've known exactly its size for a long, long time and tried as I may-I haven't gained another bleeping extra inch after its already in full functioning mode. :laugh:
However, my wife seems to think I am just fine as is. ;)
And thats all that matters to me on that front..... :laugh: -Tyr

[Little-Acorn]

American bombs are still buried under German towns. And they're blowing up.


Gee, maybe the Germans shouldn't have started a war. Looks like they left quite a legacy for their descendants.

[Little-Acorn]

thread title = "American bombs are still buried under German towns. And they're blowing up."
my reply = "Similar situation in Iraq. especially near the iranian boarders."Plus in Iraq we used depleted uranium shells."

And American philosophy remained the same for both conflicts: "We fight them over there so we won't have to fight them here."

Again, if they don't like the result, maybe those various people should think twice before dragging us into a war. Look what their actions resulted in.

[Drummond]

American bombs are still buried under German towns. And they're blowing up.


Gee, maybe the Germans shouldn't have started a war. Looks like they left quite a legacy for their descendants.

Excellent point that Rev has entirely overlooked. Maybe those who start wars, hold responsibility for the consequences of them ??

Ditto with Saddam. He could've avoided was by behaving responsibly in the international community .. not starting wars in his own region, wars proving him to be a maverick belligerent. Or by not deploying a WMD against the Kurds ?? Or, shock horror, by FULLY COOPERATING with the UN, and removing any need for a war against his regime ?

Revelarts, seemingly, has no time or inclination to include any of this in his thinking. Better to foist blame game stuff on AMERICAN forces, and GW Bush, instead .....

[Drummond]

thread title = "American bombs are still buried under German towns. And they're blowing up."
my reply = "Similar situation in Iraq. especially near the iranian boarders. Plus in Iraq we used depleted uranium shells..."

Seems my comment is exactly parallel.

I'll agree with that, I think. Parallel .. accepted.

Parallel in that, in each case, A BELLIGERENT FORCE, A MAVERICK DICTATORSHIP, WAS BEING DEFEATED. PARALLEL IN THAT, IN EACH CASE, WORLD SECURITY BENEFITTED FROM THOSE DEFEATS.

Ah, but in your case, Rev, you still want to blame GW Bush for daring to deal with the long-standing WMD issue. Perhaps Churchill was 'to blame' for dealing (amongst others) with the long-standing Hitler issue ?

You continue berating on the issue of uranium shells ... propaganda useful to an enemy ? Eh ? BUT, what if all our fears about Saddam's WMD stocks had been exactly correct, and GW Bush had not acted at all ? What about the effects of THEIR deployments, had there ever been any ? I'm guessing that, today, you'd be firing another 'blame game' salvo at Bush for failing to act ???

Be 'selective' in your reply, Revelarts .....


the fact that it seems to provoke you into defense and justifications and into accusing me of games YET you avoid addressing the serious reality that there are in fact many today that are still suffering from our use of DU is telling.

What do you expect me to do about it ? Arrange for a wholesale excavation of Iraq to remove remaining ones ?

Saddam arranged a war - so he got one. Blame the instigator, not the power choosing to react to an intolerable position !


Your reaction to a few lines of fact indicates me that you likely do see some problem with the use of DU yourself, especially when compared to our bombing in WW2

Good God. You're REALLY pushing your 'blame' tactics to the hilt, aren't you ? Revelarts, war is hell ... and the one Saddam started can certainly qualify.


Concerning Obama he's got to own his part in Isis's growth But it was Brenen under Bush who did more to CREATE it when he fired Saddam's bathist army and left them without jobs or pensions. THEY became ISIS in Iraq. the Former Iraqi Army. That under Saddam had only ever attack Iran and Kuwait before our "victory".

Sorry, what ? ISIS consists of disgruntled unemployed people, and pensioners ??? That's a new one ... :laugh:

I hope that if we ever do get ground troops in to mop up the post-bombed ISIS scum, they'll look out for the telltale sign of fast-moving zimmerframes ..:laugh:

... and I 'really love' this bit ...


That under Saddam had only ever attack Iran and Kuwait before our "victory"

... ONLY ?? Well, that's all right, then !! Now, how selective with your blame game stuff are you being HERE ???? Good God ....

OK, summarising. Obama's share of responsibility for ISIS should be minimised. Bush's 'culpability' for ISIS (by daring to overthrow a tyrannical maniac who'd ONLY attacked two other counties, and was feared to have a WMD arsenal !!) is 'far more total', because, erm' he did NOT arrange a troop withdrawal, this allowing ISIS to emerge ???

Care to look at that one again, Revelarts ? Or perhaps your selectivity will get in the way ??


now you question my sincerity.

I'm sure you're completely sincere in your many attacks on GW Bush, and your 'blame game' tactics (as sincere as any Leftie would be in following his bog-standard pro-Leftie agenda !). I'm sure you're very sincere in wanting to defend Obama from blame for his obvious irresponsibility (TREASONOUS irresponsibility, at that !).


I guess you are little sorry Hilter didn't have some partial victory right Drummond?

That would be the 'Mr Hilter' of Monty Python fame, Revelarts ? Do tell ... :laugh:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xwMVJ-QmUQ

Feel free to try and justify your accusation, Revelarts. But of course, you'll do a classic FJ, and duck that one ...


I'm going to be blunt here.

I say, steady on there, Revelarts ...


ignorant, stupid or brainwashed people will believe anything even balled faced lies. ANY lying propaganda will work.

... well, if you say so ! You seem to have some experience of such things ? What other source of personal knowledge do you have to draw on, for that one ??


But most reasonable people of good will if given enough info will not fall for BS that trys to paint honest confessions of mistakes or wrong doing ..with corrective measures.. as weakness or a cause to fight. If the wrong is confessed and addressed what's to fight Drummond.

More of your selectivity at work ? All this tries to divert away from my earlier point, which as we both know, was fully valid. You do NOT work to give your enemy a gift of propaganda they can then work to use against you !!

.. or .. DO you ? H'mmm ? Please advise !!


And by your reality, If muslims are subhumans koran bent on our destruction anyway it doesn't matter what we say on any subject good or bad. They'll still come after us. Unless you think some muslims DO care what we REALLY DO and REaLLY Say. But that'd be LEFTIE CRAP.!!!

You make a good point here, Revelarts. It's always good to recognise the true nature of your enemy, then be prepared to do what you MUST do, against that enemy, to defeat it. We did that with Saddam. We - thanks in no small part to LEFTIE PC SELLOUT TYPES - are spectacularly FAILING to grasp the complete nature of the Islamic enemy.

High time that changed. Ah, but Revelarts, I'm sure you'd not agree with that one .. would you ?

Cue a timely attack on GW Bush by way of desperate diversion, Rev .. ?


I think you haven't taken into account the whole of the evidence.
so we disagree.

You know, I bet the humour and irony of that remark escapes you .. eh ? :laugh::laugh::eek::laugh: