Youths' attraction to Bernie symptomatic of Failed education system

[darin]

Perfectly-said.


"
It's disheartening that an avowed socialist is a viable candidate for president of the United States. Socialism is a dead end. For hundreds of years, it has failed everywhere it's been adopted. The enthusiasm of our youth for the candidacy of Bernie Sanders is a symptom of our failure to educate them, not only in history, government and economics, but also basic morality.
...
Human nature is corruptible. If government has the power to redistribute wealth, it will always act in the interests of the powerful segments of society. What made America great is not progressive government, but the genius and industry of a people freed from arbitrary power by the chains placed upon government by our Constitution."

http://m.newsok.com/article/5475578


This guy speaks to the most damning problem our society faces - we allowed progressives to teach our kids. Instead of putting them out, we encouraged our "teachers" to corrupt the minds of our youth. We pay

[fj1200]

Perfectly-said.

The problem though I think is that they look at the "socialism" of western Europe and not the failed Socialism of eastern Europe.

[LongTermGuy]

Perfectly-said.


"
It's disheartening that an avowed socialist is a viable candidate for president of the United States. Socialism is a dead end. For hundreds of years, it has failed everywhere it's been adopted. The enthusiasm of our youth for the candidacy of Bernie Sanders is a symptom of our failure to educate them, not only in history, government and economics, but also basic morality.
...
Human nature is corruptible. If government has the power to redistribute wealth, it will always act in the interests of the powerful segments of society. What made America great is not progressive government, but the genius and industry of a people freed from arbitrary power by the chains placed upon government by our Constitution."

http://m.newsok.com/article/5475578


This guy speaks to the most damning problem our society faces - we allowed progressives to teach our kids. Instead of putting them out, we encouraged our "teachers" to corrupt the minds of our youth. We pay

​Well stated and agree...

[sundaydriver]

The problem is that they will be getting health insurance until age 26 by their parents, living with them into their 30's, and only then will they have to worry.

[danielle]

This guy speaks to the most damning problem our society faces - we allowed progressives to teach our kids. Instead of putting them out, we encouraged our "teachers" to corrupt the minds of our youth. We pay

This is an incredibly stupid statement. Perhaps your kids are ignorant, but some of us are left to be creative thinkers. Too many older people have no clue what a good school system is. Maybe you sent your kids to a church school to have religion crammed down their throat. Or, worse, homeschooled them and produced clueless misfits who are unable to manage in real life.
If you think all public schools and teachers are bad, then you are truly an idiot. And I feel sorry for your kids.

[aboutime]

This is an incredibly stupid statement. Perhaps your kids are ignorant, but some of us are left to be creative thinkers. Too many older people have no clue what a good school system is. Maybe you sent your kids to a church school to have religion crammed down their throat. Or, worse, homeschooled them and produced clueless misfits who are unable to manage in real life.
If you think all public schools and teachers are bad, then you are truly an idiot. And I feel sorry for your kids.


Thank You GABBY! Verbatim words eventually expose.

[Black Diamond]

This is an incredibly stupid statement. Perhaps your kids are ignorant, but some of us are left to be creative thinkers. Too many older people have no clue what a good school system is. Maybe you sent your kids to a church school to have religion crammed down their throat. Or, worse, homeschooled them and produced clueless misfits who are unable to manage in real life.
If you think all public schools and teachers are bad, then you are truly an idiot. And I feel sorry for your kids.
Is mommy using your account? Sure sounds like it.

[Black Diamond]

Thank You GABBY! Verbatim words eventually expose.

Sounds like you were right. My apologies.

[aboutime]

Sounds like you were right. My apologies.


Just yesterday we were told there are NO POLITICAL discussions in the gabby house??? Funny stuff too!:laugh:

[Russ]

Perfectly-said.


"
It's disheartening that an avowed socialist is a viable candidate for president of the United States. Socialism is a dead end. For hundreds of years, it has failed everywhere it's been adopted. The enthusiasm of our youth for the candidacy of Bernie Sanders is a symptom of our failure to educate them, not only in history, government and economics, but also basic morality.
...
Human nature is corruptible. If government has the power to redistribute wealth, it will always act in the interests of the powerful segments of society. What made America great is not progressive government, but the genius and industry of a people freed from arbitrary power by the chains placed upon government by our Constitution."

http://m.newsok.com/article/5475578


This guy speaks to the most damning problem our society faces - we allowed progressives to teach our kids. Instead of putting them out, we encouraged our "teachers" to corrupt the minds of our youth. We pay

I agree. The fact that a Socialist like Bernie Sanders is so popular with voters in their 20's sounds to me like a sign that the next generation is more focused on being taken care of and getting free services, than they are focused on ambition and hard work.

[Abbey Marie]

This is an incredibly stupid statement. Perhaps your kids are ignorant, but some of us are left to be creative thinkers. Too many older people have no clue what a good school system is. Maybe you sent your kids to a church school to have religion crammed down their throat. Or, worse, homeschooled them and produced clueless misfits who are unable to manage in real life.
If you think all public schools and teachers are bad, then you are truly an idiot. And I feel sorry for your kids.

Now Danielle, that's kind of rough. You don't even know dmp, and making such assumptions about him and his children is not the mature way to behave. I think you should think about it and try again.

[NightTrain]

This is an incredibly stupid statement. Perhaps your kids are ignorant, but some of us are left to be creative thinkers. Too many older people have no clue what a good school system is. Maybe you sent your kids to a church school to have religion crammed down their throat. Or, worse, homeschooled them and produced clueless misfits who are unable to manage in real life.
If you think all public schools and teachers are bad, then you are truly an idiot. And I feel sorry for your kids.


Do you feel that your school is teaching a non-biased curriculum there in California, Danielle? Any teachers giving nudges towards Bernie in class?

[darin]

This is an incredibly stupid statement. Perhaps your kids are ignorant, but some of us are left to be creative thinkers. Too many older people have no clue what a good school system is. Maybe you sent your kids to a church school to have religion crammed down their throat. Or, worse, homeschooled them and produced clueless misfits who are unable to manage in real life.
If you think all public schools and teachers are bad, then you are truly an idiot. And I feel sorry for your kids.

So let me get this straight...it's okay for YOU to think all religious schools or home schooling produces idiots, but you're mad at ME for (not) saying Public schools are universally, without exception awful? Hypocrite much?

But lets take what you wrote at face value.

First off, private (to include religious) schools consistently out-perform public schools in meaningful ways when NOT using the public-school-cop-out filter "Adjusting for social and economic differences" in the test scores. Private schools offer centralized and local solutions Public schools take DECADES to find.


You're a lot like my 14 year old. EVERYTHING is either somebody else's fault, OR it's terrible. There's no middle ground. You sit there at your Hello Kitty computer screen alt-tab'ing between this site and FaceBook or Insta and you want the pretty people on the screen to tell you what to think because you're too lazy to form opinions based on wisdom or research or both.

Look at your reply to me - you provided NO EVIDENCE to support your opposition to what I wrote, you simply fell into ad hominem attack. You tried to say I'm 'stupid' as a way to seemingly invalidate my views. Then, THEN you went after my KIDS - whom you know nothing about. You don't know if my kids are attorneys or doctors or homeless or porn stars. Maybe my daughter scored 32 on her ACT (she scored 28). Maybe my son scored 36? You don't know my background. You don't know who I am. You don't know if I'm a member of triple 9s, or mensa, or if I'm homeless. You don't know if I have millions of dollars or live working two jobs paying minimum wage. You don't know if I've sacrificed to defend your ability to sit there on your judgment seat. You stat there, read what I wrote and personalized it for maybe a couple reasons. First reason could be you're immature and you get your rocks off finding ONCE OUNCE of where something doesn't apply within 4 tons of everything-else-that-does. You're a contrarian. Could be you're upset because you found yourself in the article I posted and that hurt your feelings. Maybe, just maybe, your needs are easier to fix - maybe you're tense and simply need to get laid.

And...AND...I'm right. The article I posted is right. That's the crux of this. Public schools (including colleges) are by-far populated by progressive and liberal educators and their ideology is ruining society to the point people actually SUPPORT Sanders AND/OR Clinton as viable presidents. That fact alone should scare you - if you weren't too busy being a whiney defensive little shit.



Now Danielle, that's kind of rough. You don't even know dmp, and making such assumptions about him and his children is not the mature way to behave. I think you should think about it and try again.

That user doesn't know my kids are verifiably better than any of their peers. :)

[Gunny]

Perfectly-said.


"
It's disheartening that an avowed socialist is a viable candidate for president of the United States. Socialism is a dead end. For hundreds of years, it has failed everywhere it's been adopted. The enthusiasm of our youth for the candidacy of Bernie Sanders is a symptom of our failure to educate them, not only in history, government and economics, but also basic morality.
...
Human nature is corruptible. If government has the power to redistribute wealth, it will always act in the interests of the powerful segments of society. What made America great is not progressive government, but the genius and industry of a people freed from arbitrary power by the chains placed upon government by our Constitution."

http://m.newsok.com/article/5475578


This guy speaks to the most damning problem our society faces - we allowed progressives to teach our kids. Instead of putting them out, we encouraged our "teachers" to corrupt the minds of our youth. We pay

Are you referring to the same youth on our colleges campuses that are willing to give away our 1st Amendment Rights? Good thing we pay all this money to allegedly educate these losers. Just a bunch of lazy f*cks that don't want to work for a living from MY POV.

I resent it more than most probably because I can't work. Hell, give me a minimum wage part time job. I'd LOVE to be off this computer and out from in front of the damned tube. I don't know how to play on my phone if I even wanted to. All these little wusses want to do is stick their heads up their phones and not deal with reality.

[aboutime]

Where has Danielle (gabby) gone? Such a wonderful addition to the forum for a few fleeting posts, then???:laugh:

Almost seems like a thread from "Law and Order, SVU", or "NCIS" has turned fiction into reality here.

Gee whiz....this stuff is fun.

[Trigg]

you'd be amazed how many kids in their early 20's love Sanders, listening to the friends of my older 2 is just sickening.

College is free in Europe= kids have to test into high school and have ONLY 2 chances to test into college.....at which time YES it is free

Healthcare is free in Europe= being taxed at 30% and 3/4 of the population buys private insurance so they can see an actual physician. They have a critical physician shortage due to low wages and most of the people see physician or nurse practitioners.

[aboutime]

you'd be amazed how many kids in their early 20's love Sanders, listening to the friends of my older 2 is just sickening.

College is free in Europe= kids have to test into high school and have ONLY 2 chances to test into college.....at which time YES it is free

Healthcare is free in Europe= being taxed at 30% and 3/4 of the population buys private insurance so they can see an actual physician. They have a critical physician shortage due to low wages and most of the people see physician or nurse practitioners.


Trigg.. Anybody who uses the word FREE as often as Sanders has used it...deserves to get the UNeducated vote. College kids have no idea what responsibility is, nor do they know what, or where, money comes from. Most of them depend on Mommy and Daddy, and their LIMITLESS Credit Cards that so easily can be used...SINCE THEY don't have to pay. IF IT'S FREE...it doesn't matter WHO has to pay for it. IGNORANCE IS BLISS.

College kids have status. The definition of Status is:

Spending money you don't have, on things you don't need, to impress people you don't know!

As for being responsible. Sanders is teaching them they DON'T NEED TO BE....

[Black Diamond]

you'd be amazed how many kids in their early 20's love Sanders, listening to the friends of my older 2 is just sickening.

College is free in Europe= kids have to test into high school and have ONLY 2 chances to test into college.....at which time YES it is free

Healthcare is free in Europe= being taxed at 30% and 3/4 of the population buys private insurance so they can see an actual physician. They have a critical physician shortage due to low wages and most of the people see physician or nurse practitioners.

Entitlement.....

[Trigg]

Trigg.. Anybody who uses the word FREE as often as Sanders has used it...deserves to get the UNeducated vote. College kids have no idea what responsibility is, nor do they know what, or where, money comes from. Most of them depend on Mommy and Daddy, and their LIMITLESS Credit Cards that so easily can be used...SINCE THEY don't have to pay. IF IT'S FREE...it doesn't matter WHO has to pay for it. IGNORANCE IS BLISS.

College kids have status. The definition of Status is:

Spending money you don't have, on things you don't need, to impress people you don't know!

As for being responsible. Sanders is teaching them they DON'T NEED TO BE....

Sadly these kids are voting in the next election and aren't listening to logic. Even the "free" college offered in the US has stipulations involving grade point average and income level, I believe they have to maintain a GPA of 2.5 in order to receive free tuition.

For some reason they don't understand that if you open up "free college" for everyone the stipulations will increase just as they have in European countries.

[aboutime]

Sadly these kids are voting in the next election and aren't listening to logic. Even the "free" college offered in the US has stipulations involving grade point average and income level, I believe they have to maintain a GPA of 2.5 in order to receive free tuition.

For some reason they don't understand that if you open up "free college" for everyone the stipulations will increase just as they have in European countries.


Right you are, but...That requires THINKING, and personal Responsibility....which...they are not taught. Not in class, and definately NOT AT HOME. Their parents are willing to INVEST thousands in tuition...ALSO A STATUS symbol, as a way of Impressing other people. Problem really is. Not every child needs College these days. Some have to learn to use their potential as Blue collar jobs. Not everybody becomes a Millionaire out of college, and going to Hollywood is nothing but a fantasy for most. The same with the RAPPERS. All believe they will make millions because they can RHYME (or try) to entertain. REALITY is a terrible truth most college kids will never know.

[NightTrain]

I recently had a long conversation with Sharon's 18 year old daughter who thought Sander's idea of 'free' college was a great idea.

Of course it sounds like a good idea to a kid, until they start having some cold, hard numbers given.

I had her sit down and watch this clip of Cuvuto and the girl who organized that 'Million Student March' :

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Zmji36q8E4o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Watching that is all it took. She now fully understands the folly of all that 'free' money that the progressives use to lure uninformed kids into their web.

She doesn't like Trump, but she now will not vote for Sanders or Hellary. And that's a good start.

[Black Diamond]

These millennials are going to destroy us

[LongTermGuy]

I recently had a long conversation with Sharon's 18 year old daughter who thought Sander's idea of 'free' college was a great idea.

Of course it sounds like a good idea to a kid, until they start having some cold, hard numbers given.

I had her sit down and watch this clip of Cuvuto and the girl who organized that 'Million Student March' :

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Zmji36q8E4o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>


Watching that is all it took. She now fully understands the folly of all that 'free' money that the progressives use to lure uninformed kids into their web.

She doesn't like Trump, but she now will not vote for Sanders or Hellary. And that's a good start.

​Yes it is a good start...Indoctrination is a hard mess to clean up....

[LongTermGuy]

These millennials are going to destroy us


They can try...but Hopefully not....I dont feel they can get down dirty and ugly if need be..."US" will do what it takes to preserve our country and we dont give up easily...(if at all).

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

These millennials are going to destroy us

Liberal/socialist education hitting high gear gonna destroy us. My generation is the last (born 1954 myself) one that had drilled into them that patriotism was the support of the kind of freedom that has blessed the entire world by its existence in USA.. Now lib indoctrination for 40+ years has turned out socialist loving morons-- sad but true. Hollywood and its leftist.lib fools helped in that as did the sold out leftist mainstream media.--Tyr

----------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------


http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki/index.php/The_tree_of_liberty...(Quotation)

"I do not know whether it is to yourself or Mr. Adams I am to give my thanks for the copy of the new constitution. I beg leave through you to place them where due. It will be yet three weeks before I shall receive them from America. There are very good articles in it: and very bad. I do not know which preponderate. What we have lately read in the history of Holland, in the chapter on the Stadtholder, would have sufficed to set me against a Chief magistrate eligible for a long duration, if I had ever been disposed towards one: and what we have always read of the elections of Polish kings should have forever excluded the idea of one continuable for life. Wonderful is the effect of impudent and persevering lying. The British ministry have so long hired their gazetteers to repeat and model into every form lies about our being in anarchy, that the world has at length believed them, the English nation has believed them, the ministers themselves have come to believe them, and what is more wonderful, we have believed them ourselves. Yet where does this anarchy exist? Where did it ever exist, except in the single instance of Massachusets? And can history produce an instance of a rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be 20. years without such a rebellion.[1] The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independant 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century and a half for each state. What country ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure. Our Convention has been too much impressed by the insurrection of Massachusets: and in the spur of the moment they are setting up a kite to keep the hen yard in order. I hope in god this article will be rectified before the new constitution is accepted." - Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, Paris, 13 Nov. 1787[2]


http://tjrs.monticello.org/letter/100

Extract from Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith

Paris Nov. 13. 1787.
the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it’s natural manure.



http://americancreation.blogspot.com/2009/08/jeffersons-tree-of-liberty-quote-in.html

Jefferson's "Tree of Liberty" Quote in Context

Over the past few weeks we have witness how the debate over healthcare has ignited the fires of political partisanship on both sides of the conservative/liberal spectrum. Whether taking the form of intense town hall meetings or fervent public protests -- in which some even chose to carry automatic weapons in public -- the debate over healthcare has caused scores of Americans to yet again invoke the founding principles of America to support their respective take on the issue.

In the wake of this public discourse one infamous and stirring quote has made its way onto the public stage: enter none other than Thomas Jefferson.

In 1787, Thomas Jefferson -- who was then living in France -- wrote a letter to his friend William Smith. In the letter Jefferson wrote the following words, which have, from time-to-time, been quoted to affirm the right of the people to rebel against one's government:

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure.
Simple enough, right? Well, not quite. And while Jefferson's "tree of liberty" quote has become a favorite of many who oppose the current direction being taken by the Obama Administration, the quote has an important and often forgotten context.

As mentioned before, Jefferson was still living and working in France in 1787. At the time, Jefferson was deeply concerned about some of the proposals for the new United States Constitution -- particularly the role of the executive branch, which he saw as being far too powerful. In addition, Jefferson believed that the recent rebellion in Massachusetts -- which became known as Shays' Rebellion -- had heightened the fears of the American elite, causing them to throw their weight behind a stronger executive government. Shays' Rebellion was essentially an armed rebellion against taxes being levied at Massachusetts farmers. It's leader, Daniel Shays -- who had served as a soldier during the American Revolution -- used the legacy of the American Revolution to garner support for his cause. As a result, scores of patriotic Massachusetts men, most of whom were farmers themselves, resurrected the legacy of the "liberty tree" to fight the perceived injustices of the newly created government. As a result, America's governing class -- and yes, it was a class -- believed that a strong centralized government was the only surefire way to ensure America's future security.

For Jefferson, this was a textbook example of how passions could cloud judgement, creating an atmosphere of panic and fear. As Jefferson states in his letter to William Smith:

Yet where does this anarchy exist? Where did it ever exist, except in the single instance of Massachusetts? And can history produce an instance of rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independent 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. What country before ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms
Simply put, Jefferson understood Shays' Rebellion to be a common and important component of republican government. Without it, the people could not be effectively represented and the communal "lethargy" would eventually destroy the nation. On the flip side, however, Jefferson also notes that the people are rarely if ever well informed on all issues. It is this communal ignorance -- Jefferson emphasises ignorance and not wickedness -- that Jefferson believes the government must endeavor to remedy. He continues:

The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them.
The remedy is not suppression or rejection of public discontent, rather persuasion and public discourse.

So would Jefferson support the current public dialogue on healthcare? There's a good chance that he would. We can debate whether or not he would like the current rhetoric of the conservatives/liberals but I think it's hard to deny that Jefferson would be pleased to see the outpouring of public interest.

With that said, I doubt Jefferson would support actual blood being shed on the proverbial "Tree of Liberty." After all, enough blood has been lost thanks in part to this often misunderstood quote. It was Timothy McVeigh, the convicted Oklahoma City bomber, who was so very misguided by his poor understanding of Jefferson's words. On the day he chose to murder 168 of his fellow Americans, McVeigh was wearing a shirt that carried Jefferson's infamous words:

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure.


May we ALWAYS remember to be cautious with the history we fail to understand!

[LongTermGuy]

Liberal/socialist education hitting high gear gonna destroy us. My generation is the last (born 1954 myself) one that had drilled into them that patriotism was the support of the kind of freedom that has blessed the entire world by its existence in USA.. Now lib indoctrination for 40+ years has turned out socialist loving morons-- sad but true. Hollywood and its leftist.lib fools helped in that as did the sold out leftist mainstream media.--Tyr

----------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------


http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki/index.php/The_tree_of_liberty...(Quotation)

"I do not know whether it is to yourself or Mr. Adams I am to give my thanks for the copy of the new constitution. I beg leave through you to place them where due. It will be yet three weeks before I shall receive them from America. There are very good articles in it: and very bad. I do not know which preponderate. What we have lately read in the history of Holland, in the chapter on the Stadtholder, would have sufficed to set me against a Chief magistrate eligible for a long duration, if I had ever been disposed towards one: and what we have always read of the elections of Polish kings should have forever excluded the idea of one continuable for life. Wonderful is the effect of impudent and persevering lying. The British ministry have so long hired their gazetteers to repeat and model into every form lies about our being in anarchy, that the world has at length believed them, the English nation has believed them, the ministers themselves have come to believe them, and what is more wonderful, we have believed them ourselves. Yet where does this anarchy exist? Where did it ever exist, except in the single instance of Massachusets? And can history produce an instance of a rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be 20. years without such a rebellion.[1] The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independant 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century and a half for each state. What country ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure. Our Convention has been too much impressed by the insurrection of Massachusets: and in the spur of the moment they are setting up a kite to keep the hen yard in order. I hope in god this article will be rectified before the new constitution is accepted." - Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, Paris, 13 Nov. 1787[2]



Extract from Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith

Paris Nov. 13. 1787.
the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it’s natural manure.


l

Jefferson's "Tree of Liberty" Quote in Context

Over the past few weeks we have witness how the debate over healthcare has ignited the fires of political partisanship on both sides of the conservative/liberal spectrum. Whether taking the form of intense town hall meetings or fervent public protests -- in which some even chose to carry automatic weapons in public -- the debate over healthcare has caused scores of Americans to yet again invoke the founding principles of America to support their respective take on the issue.

In the wake of this public discourse one infamous and stirring quote has made its way onto the public stage: enter none other than Thomas Jefferson.

In 1787, Thomas Jefferson -- who was then living in France -- wrote a letter to his friend William Smith. In the letter Jefferson wrote the following words, which have, from time-to-time, been quoted to affirm the right of the people to rebel against one's government:

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure.
Simple enough, right? Well, not quite. And while Jefferson's "tree of liberty" quote has become a favorite of many who oppose the current direction being taken by the Obama Administration, the quote has an important and often forgotten context.

As mentioned before, Jefferson was still living and working in France in 1787. At the time, Jefferson was deeply concerned about some of the proposals for the new United States Constitution -- particularly the role of the executive branch, which he saw as being far too powerful. In addition, Jefferson believed that the recent rebellion in Massachusetts -- which became known as Shays' Rebellion -- had heightened the fears of the American elite, causing them to throw their weight behind a stronger executive government. Shays' Rebellion was essentially an armed rebellion against taxes being levied at Massachusetts farmers. It's leader, Daniel Shays -- who had served as a soldier during the American Revolution -- used the legacy of the American Revolution to garner support for his cause. As a result, scores of patriotic Massachusetts men, most of whom were farmers themselves, resurrected the legacy of the "liberty tree" to fight the perceived injustices of the newly created government. As a result, America's governing class -- and yes, it was a class -- believed that a strong centralized government was the only surefire way to ensure America's future security.

For Jefferson, this was a textbook example of how passions could cloud judgement, creating an atmosphere of panic and fear. As Jefferson states in his letter to William Smith:

Yet where does this anarchy exist? Where did it ever exist, except in the single instance of Massachusetts? And can history produce an instance of rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independent 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. What country before ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms
Simply put, Jefferson understood Shays' Rebellion to be a common and important component of republican government. Without it, the people could not be effectively represented and the communal "lethargy" would eventually destroy the nation. On the flip side, however, Jefferson also notes that the people are rarely if ever well informed on all issues. It is this communal ignorance -- Jefferson emphasises ignorance and not wickedness -- that Jefferson believes the government must endeavor to remedy. He continues:

The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them.
The remedy is not suppression or rejection of public discontent, rather persuasion and public discourse.

So would Jefferson support the current public dialogue on healthcare? There's a good chance that he would. We can debate whether or not he would like the current rhetoric of the conservatives/liberals but I think it's hard to deny that Jefferson would be pleased to see the outpouring of public interest.

With that said, I doubt Jefferson would support actual blood being shed on the proverbial "Tree of Liberty." After all, enough blood has been lost thanks in part to this often misunderstood quote. It was Timothy McVeigh, the convicted Oklahoma City bomber, who was so very misguided by his poor understanding of Jefferson's words. On the day he chose to murder 168 of his fellow Americans, McVeigh was wearing a shirt that carried Jefferson's infamous words:

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure.


May we ALWAYS remember to be cautious with the history we fail to understand!

http://greatestinstruments.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/treeofliberty.jpg

[Perianne]

This is an incredibly stupid statement. Perhaps your kids are ignorant, but some of us are left to be creative thinkers. Too many older people have no clue what a good school system is. Maybe you sent your kids to a church school to have religion crammed down their throat. Or, worse, homeschooled them and produced clueless misfits who are unable to manage in real life.
If you think all public schools and teachers are bad, then you are truly an idiot. And I feel sorry for your kids.

I didn't post last week and missed this gem. Who is this danielle? Is she gabby? Why is she attacking family members? Is that allowed here?

[jimnyc]

I didn't post last week and missed this gem. Who is this danielle? Is she gabby? Why is she attacking family members? Is that allowed here?

We were told in the introductions section by this person that their name was danielle and that she was Gabby's daughter. It took much less than ten posts and this person was suddenly posting IDENTICALLY to the way Gabby posts.

"I feel sorry for your kids" IS in fact a :poke:at someone, but I don't think a poke at their family members themselves. Besides, this person has apparently left anyway, likely realizing based on the comments that "she" wasn't going to get away with the sloppy attempt at being someone else.

[Perianne]

We were told in the introductions section by this person that their name was danielle and that she was Gabby's daughter. It took much less than ten posts and this person was suddenly posting IDENTICALLY to the way Gabby posts.

"I feel sorry for your kids" IS in fact a :poke:at someone, but I don't think a poke at their family members themselves. Besides, this person has apparently left anyway, likely realizing based on the comments that "she" wasn't going to get away with the sloppy attempt at being someone else.
jimnyc, I wasn't criticizing moderation for allowing it. It was simply low class on "danielle's" part to criticize someone's kids. Ya just don't do that and in real life she would get her face slapped.

[jimnyc]

@jimnyc (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=1), I wasn't criticizing moderation for allowing it. It was simply low class on "danielle's" part to criticize someone's kids. Ya just don't do that and in real life she would get her face slapped.

Oh, no doubt, I didn't think you were. The funny thing is, not just danielle, someone else used to say the EXACT same thing, AND to Darin, about kids...

[Perianne]

Oh, no doubt, I didn't think you were. The funny thing is, not just danielle, someone else used to say the EXACT same thing, AND to Darin, about kids...

Who is Darin?

[darin]

Good question. I struggle with that answer. Esoteric almost.

have a good day!
- Darin

[jimnyc]

Who is Darin?

The guy above me ^^ :)

[Perianne]

Good question. I struggle with that answer. Esoteric almost.

have a good day!
- Darin

I didn't mean any disrespect, Darin. I didn't know your name.

[darin]

I didn't mean any disrespect, Darin. I didn't know your name.

I would be heartbroken if you believed I thought you were being disrespectful. No worries, ever.

[NightTrain]

Who is Darin?


He's our resident International Man of Mystery.