Heroin

[Perianne]

On C-SPAN right now, they are having a hearing about "Heroin & Prescription Drug Abuse".

Should we as a society be responsible for drug addicts' well-being and addiction recovery?

[jimnyc]

On C-SPAN right now, they are having a hearing about "Heroin & Prescription Drug Abuse".

Should we as a society be responsible for drug addicts' well-being and addiction recovery?

YES YES YES YES YES YES - at least for "some" of the prescription drugs problems - SOME.

My story here is old, put on a bunch of pain killers for months to help with the pain prior to my neck surgery, then a week or 2 afterwards till the incision area healed. I admit I loved them and often took them just to enjoy them, and more or less abused them at times, but it really wouldn't have mattered. After being on them for like 2 weeks or more, you ARE addicted. Coming off of them, the withdrawals are horrible. No one would help me, but doctors were quick to want to write me another prescription so that I didn't have withdrawals.

In cases like that, it would be nice if there was a way to help a patient not suffer for so long.

But if someone goes right to them with never getting a prescription, that's on them. If someone uses heroin, that's on them. I do have sympathy, and would love to see even the hardcore addicts getting help, I don't think "we" should pay for it.

[NightTrain]

I just don't know what the right answer is on this. I'm torn.

On one hand, if you were weak and dumb enough to start using heroin, then you deserve what you get. That's pretty harsh, I know.

On the other hand, prescription pain meds addiction is a common thing to occur when something major happens to you. My little brother, who is dead now, fell into that category. It was NOT his fault that he became addicted to them - you simply cannot eat those damn things for over a year and not be addicted to them.

The best route is to get through the medical necessity of using those, and then deal with that Monkey On Your Back. It's a harsh reality and no one can escape addiction when they're in that predicament.



So what happens when the guy who had cancer and is out of his mind with narcotic addiction is cut off from the pain meds? Many make that jump out of desperation to heroin, illegal as it may be. That didn't happen to my brother, but I've heard many stories of those who did.

Wouldn't the decent thing be to help those and try to rehabilitate them? Usually those in that category are dead broke, so obviously the taxpayer would pick up the tab on that.

I don't know. It's a very tough question.

[Perianne]

I don't know either.

I do know that the drug addicts I have had to care for have been the most conniving, lying, backstabbing, lowdown patients ever. We all roll our eyes when we get yet another addict. Sympathy for such people is hard to come by in the medical world.

I don't drink, smoke, take drugs, get fat, or any other addictive behavior. Why should my taxes pay for the weaknesses of others?

On the other hand, I do feel sorry for the addicts who started because of severe pain.

So again, I don't know what to do. My inclination is to throw them in a padded cell for thirty days. They will be over the addiction by then. On succeeding offenses, lock them away for increasingly longer terms. Tough love. We have too many people to care for.

[Gunny]

YES YES YES YES YES YES - at least for "some" of the prescription drugs problems - SOME.

My story here is old, put on a bunch of pain killers for months to help with the pain prior to my neck surgery, then a week or 2 afterwards till the incision area healed. I admit I loved them and often took them just to enjoy them, and more or less abused them at times, but it really wouldn't have mattered. After being on them for like 2 weeks or more, you ARE addicted. Coming off of them, the withdrawals are horrible. No one would help me, but doctors were quick to want to write me another prescription so that I didn't have withdrawals.

In cases like that, it would be nice if there was a way to help a patient not suffer for so long.

But if someone goes right to them with never getting a prescription, that's on them. If someone uses heroin, that's on them. I do have sympathy, and would love to see even the hardcore addicts getting help, I don't think "we" should pay for it.

Superman pills. I can lift the same on 20mg of oxy that I could as when I was 20. Unfortunately, once the pills ran out, the bod said WTF did you think you were doing? :laugh:

Should society be responsible? I think yes and no. I grew up when people and the MSM and the movies all made smoking look cool. Humphrey Bogart. Now we're like red-headed step-children when society created the image and encouraged it when I was kid. All of these fat slobs that'll die of heart disease long before I die of lung cancer trip me out. I don't care if you don't like my smoke. I don't like the fact your fat ass can't reach behind your scuzzy back to get that stench off you that you think is perfectly okay for me to breathe.

So society should be responsible for some addictions. Heroin, not so much.

I just want to know how all these damned criminal can get oxy and those of us in real pain can't even get a whiff of the crap.

[fj1200]

What price liberty?

Injuries soar after Michigan stops requiring motorcycle helmets (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-helmetlaws-michigan-injury-idUSKBN0UL2JN20160107)

[Gunny]

What price liberty?

Injuries soar after Michigan stops requiring motorcycle helmets (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-helmetlaws-michigan-injury-idUSKBN0UL2JN20160107)



What price indeed. Let's outlaw motorcycles along with the Big Gulp. I mean really .....

[fj1200]

What price indeed. Let's outlaw motorcycles along with the Big Gulp. I mean really .....

It's the lack of requiring helmets anymore that was the problem.

[indago]

It's the lack of requiring helmets anymore that was the problem.

I recall a few years back I had a motorcycle, a BMW R60US. It was a couple of years old when I bought it. One day I did some tuneup on it, and polished it up — it was black, with some white pinstriping on it — and took the saddlebags off of it. Then, took it out for a run. I went on the interstate and wound it up til the speedo hit the top pin. It was like flying through the air — no helmet. Then I slowed it down and returned home. I thought about that many times later, thinking about what would have happened if I lost control of it. I wouldn't be here talking about it.

[pete311]

I have a family member addicted to heroin and every day we prepare for "the call". The person made one bad choice. One we could have all made. Unfortunately once heroin takes you, it's near impossible to let it go by yourself. It changes your mind and makes you a slave. We need to stop treating addicts like criminals and get them the treatment they need. Depends what society you want to live in. I never understood this until my family member got involved.

[Gunny]

I have a family member addicted to heroin and every day we prepare for "the call". The person made one bad choice. One we could have all made. Unfortunately once heroin takes you, it's near impossible to let it go by yourself. It changes your mind and makes you a slave. We need to stop treating addicts like criminals and get them the treatment they need. Depends what society you want to live in. I never understood this until my family member got involved.

Not meaning to be offensive by any means whatsoever on this topic, but you aren't the only one on this board that knows about addiction. Try being the addict. We resent people like you. Heroin's illegal. A bottle of Jack ain't. I can walk right up to the store and and get one legally right now. And I'd LOVE to have a drink. Only it's never just one. I can kill a bottle in less than a day. I get up every morning knowing I can't have one. I'm a complete ass when I get going. And I am quite destructive when I get going. Good thing they got a babyfood section and I can can go choose Oatmeal with cinnamon and raisins instead.

Y'all act like this all about you, when it's really all about us. Y'all don't consider the fact that, at least in my case, reality was just a little too real and there are certain things you can't deal with. Y'all don't see babies set on fire. You might have a different opinion if you did.

So maybe that brother of yours can't deal with something. If he is willing to help himself, it's your responsibility to help him. If he isn't willing, don't waste your time until HE is ready.

[jimnyc]

I have a family member addicted to heroin and every day we prepare for "the call". The person made one bad choice. One we could have all made. Unfortunately once heroin takes you, it's near impossible to let it go by yourself. It changes your mind and makes you a slave. We need to stop treating addicts like criminals and get them the treatment they need. Depends what society you want to live in. I never understood this until my family member got involved.

I feel for you and your family member, Pete. I know addiction myself. I have lost 3 friends to addiction, 2 of them to heroin. Getting of that hook once it has you is extremely hard. I don't know heroin, but they say it's one of the worst. It's very close to the pain killers but even more addicting. It's a drug that reels you in, keeps you addicted by the sheer amount of hell one will go through if they stop. It takes over their lives, literally. The only way to win is rehab units and HELP. But there aren't nearly enough rehabs to help, nor is it affordable. Then much of society looks down upon them and often doesn't want to help.

I'd bet 8 out of 10 of the addicts would gladly stop if they could avoid the pain. I can speak for the pills, going cold turkey is awful. And thankfully I was on a smaller dosage for a small amount of time. But folks would rather keep doing the drugs, as opposed to suffering through what happens if they stop.

[Gunny]

I feel for you and your family member, Pete. I know addiction myself. I have lost 3 friends to addiction, 2 of them to heroin. Getting of that hook once it has you is extremely hard. I don't know heroin, but they say it's one of the worst. It's very close to the pain killers but even more addicting. It's a drug that reels you in, keeps you addicted by the sheer amount of hell one will go through if they stop. It takes over their lives, literally. The only way to win is rehab units and HELP. But there aren't nearly enough rehabs to help, nor is it affordable. Then much of society looks down upon them and often doesn't want to help.

I'd bet 8 out of 10 of the addicts would gladly stop if they could avoid the pain. I can speak for the pills, going cold turkey is awful. And thankfully I was on a smaller dosage for a small amount of time. But folks would rather keep doing the drugs, as opposed to suffering through what happens if they stop.

If that ain't the f-ing truth.

[Noir]

Help should be offered,
failure should be expected,
Help should be offered,
[repeat.]

[Perianne]

Help should be offered,
failure should be expected,
Help should be offered,
[repeat.]

And who pays for this repeated help?

[Noir]

And who pays for this repeated help?

The State, given it is unlikely the addict will have the funds to pay themselves.

[Perianne]

The State, given it is unlikely the addict will have the funds to pay themselves.

The addict should have thought about that before taking that first dose of heroin instead of expecting me to help pay for his treatment.

[Noir]

The addict should have thought about that before taking that first dose of heroin instead of expecting me to help pay for his treatment.

You'd want them to suffer without help?

[Perianne]

You'd want them to suffer without help?

I don't want them to suffer at all. I want them to be responsible for their own actions.

I said earlier that we should lock them in a padded room for thirty days. I am okay with helping to pay for feeding them and such. After thirty days, the physical addiction is broken.

You will find I have great solutions to may problems. You're welcome.

[Gunny]

Help should be offered,
failure should be expected,
Help should be offered,
[repeat.]

The help IS offered. Here's a straight to the point for you: You can offer all the help in the World to an addict, and it's tossing money down the drain until that addict wants the help. Enabling the addict is a waste of time, effort and money. And they'll tell you whatever you want to hear to get that next fix.

Most addicts are sincere in wanting to quit. They just don't know how to.

[Gunny]

And who pays for this repeated help?


The addict should have thought about that before taking that first dose of heroin instead of expecting me to help pay for his treatment.

You know what? You're part of the problem. All you see is the addiction and what it will cost. I'm one of the toughest assholes you'll EVER run into. And I got strung out feeling sorry for myself and drinking. No one's perfect.

Do we help our fellow Man, or just watch him die? What would Jesus do? I never look down on others unless it's to offer them a hand up.

[Perianne]

You know what? You're part of the problem. All you see is the addiction and what it will cost. I'm one of the toughest assholes you'll EVER run into. And I got strung out feeling sorry for myself and drinking. No one's perfect.

Do we help our fellow Man, or just watch him die? What would Jesus do? I never look down on others unless it's to offer them a hand up.

I am the person who cares for them when they can no longer care for themselves. Shame on me? I am there when they are so sick from infections that they poop and pee on themselves (which I clean up), they vomit (which I clean up), some hit with fists (which my body absorbs), I clean their respiratory secretions, give them oral care, and on and on.

I am part of the problem?

Again, Gunny, I have all the sympathy in the world for people like you who have given your best and your all in defense of our country and wound up addicted. And I have sympathy for people who wound up on heroin to relieve pain.

I have zero sympathy for people who got addicted to heroin because they wanted to party.

[pete311]

Not meaning to be offensive by any means whatsoever on this topic, but you aren't the only one on this board that knows about addiction. Try being the addict. We resent people like you. Heroin's illegal. A bottle of Jack ain't. I can walk right up to the store and and get one legally right now. And I'd LOVE to have a drink. Only it's never just one. I can kill a bottle in less than a day. I get up every morning knowing I can't have one. I'm a complete ass when I get going. And I am quite destructive when I get going. Good thing they got a babyfood section and I can can go choose Oatmeal with cinnamon and raisins instead.

Y'all act like this all about you, when it's really all about us. Y'all don't consider the fact that, at least in my case, reality was just a little too real and there are certain things you can't deal with. Y'all don't see babies set on fire. You might have a different opinion if you did.

So maybe that brother of yours can't deal with something. If he is willing to help himself, it's your responsibility to help him. If he isn't willing, don't waste your time until HE is ready.

What the hell are you talking about? You resent people like me? Exactly what part of what I posted is so offensive? I think we are on the same side here, but you don't write like you think so.

[pete311]

I don't want them to suffer at all. I want them to be responsible for their own actions.

I said earlier that we should lock them in a padded room for thirty days. I am okay with helping to pay for feeding them and such. After thirty days, the physical addiction is broken.

You will find I have great solutions to may problems. You're welcome.

Drugs don't play fair. This is chemistry, not mental toughness. No one should have to pay with their life because of one bad decision. I look back at my life and there are many times that if some situation was a little different or I wan't as lucky, I might not be here today. We all have those moments. Sometimes people aren't so lucky. Addiction is a health crisis, not a criminal crisis, stop treating them like criminals. Drugs these days alter minds and go against our natural biology. Even nicotine is evil. I had a perfectly intelligent friend who thought he was mentally tough enough to beat addiction so he started smoking cigarettes to prove it. He said he could stop at any time. A year later he's smoking a pack a day. How fucking stupid, but it shows just how unnaturally powerful these chemicals are. No one should have to be expected to beat them on their own.

[pete311]

I have zero sympathy for people who got addicted to heroin because they wanted to party.

Heroin is a very nasty and messy drug. No one takes it at a party. No one goes to a party and decides tonight is the night they want to smoke a pipe of heroin or shoot up in their veins. Drugs like heroin are done by very emotionally pained and lost people. It is an escape.

[jimnyc]

Heroin is a very nasty and messy drug. No one takes it at a party. No one goes to a party and decides tonight is the night they want to smoke a pipe of heroin or shoot up in their veins. Drugs like heroin are done by very emotionally pained and lost people. It is an escape.

Those that I knew either snorted the drug or evolved into shooting it up. 2 of them I knew well. You can see it coming like a freight train, and slowly, but just as deadly. These guys simply wouldn't listen. Or they did, but couldn't listen. I can only understand them and sympathize (to an extent), because of the issues I had myself. Once your sucked in, even if you do want to do the right thing, and stop and hopefully correct a wrong - you can't. The suffering is just that bad. And in this day and age, everyone knows that by now, which is what baffles me, that some would ever start this crap to begin with. I understand that some want to escape. I guess a lot of folks think they're invincible, and always believe they can stop when they want to. There's certain things you just don't mess with though.

[pete311]

Those that I knew either snorted the drug or evolved into shooting it up. 2 of them I knew well. You can see it coming like a freight train, and slowly, but just as deadly. These guys simply wouldn't listen. Or they did, but couldn't listen. I can only understand them and sympathize (to an extent), because of the issues I had myself. Once your sucked in, even if you do want to do the right thing, and stop and hopefully correct a wrong - you can't. The suffering is just that bad. And in this day and age, everyone knows that by now, which is what baffles me, that some would ever start this crap to begin with. I understand that some want to escape. I guess a lot of folks think they're invincible, and always believe they can stop when they want to. There's certain things you just don't mess with though.

My family member met a significant other who she initially trusted and in the end abused her and got her hooked. The biggest scumbag on earth. Once hooked there is no time for thinking of the future or any kind of responsibility. Your entire mental capacity is fixed on getting that next high. For many who take Heroin they know the danger and want to stop. Extremely few are actually happy about being a Heroin junkie. Many start because whatever is happening in their life is so bad that a 30min super high that lets them forget is worth it. Worth it for that moment. Unfortunately there is little escape from that prison by yourself once the high is gone. Only time to think about how to get the next fix.

[fj1200]

I recall a few years back I had a motorcycle, a BMW R60US. It was a couple of years old when I bought it. One day I did some tuneup on it, and polished it up — it was black, with some white pinstriping on it — and took the saddlebags off of it. Then, took it out for a run. I went on the interstate and wound it up til the speedo hit the top pin. It was like flying through the air — no helmet. Then I slowed it down and returned home. I thought about that many times later, thinking about what would have happened if I lost control of it. I wouldn't be here talking about it.

A. Nice.
B. It's nice to have the wind in your hair but not a good long-term strategy.

[Gunny]

I am the person who cares for them when they can no longer care for themselves. Shame on me? I am there when they are so sick from infections that they poop and pee on themselves (which I clean up), they vomit (which I clean up), some hit with fists (which my body absorbs), I clean their respiratory secretions, give them oral care, and on and on.

I am part of the problem?

Again, Gunny, I have all the sympathy in the world for people like you who have given your best and your all in defense of our country and wound up addicted. And I have sympathy for people who wound up on heroin to relieve pain.

I have zero sympathy for people who got addicted to heroin because they wanted to party.

It's not about what you do I'm commenting on. It's the attitude. It doesn't matter why they are addicted. There's a reason behind it whether or not you think it's to party. I have no more excuse for getting lost in a bottle than some "partier" does shooting up. It's running from reality, regardless the drug.

When we start addressing THAT instead of busting them and throwing them in jail so the government can make some money, we might get somewhere. The people I don't feel sorry for are the ones that know they need help and refuse to get it when it's all over the place for free.

[pete311]

The people I don't feel sorry for are the ones that know they need help and refuse to get it when it's all over the place for free.

I live in a large midwest city and it's not that obvious. I wouldn't know where to go. For serious addiction the free places are not enough. You need serious in-patient holistic care. The problem is that just treating the addiction is not enough. There is a reason they started. You need to also solve that or they will almost certainly relapse. Not to mention many people with addiction also suffer from mental illness. It horribly complicates the situation, as with my family member who is schizophrenic bi-polar. That is a nightmare combination and the system is totally failing her. There are extremely few places that dual treat. She either gets kicked out of a hospital for being high or kicked out of a treatment center for having a mental illness.

[indago]

A. Nice.
B. It's nice to have the wind in your hair but not a good long-term strategy.

Yes, it was a one time thing...

[Abbey Marie]

Help should be offered,
failure should be expected,
Help should be offered,
[repeat.]

Endlessly?

[pete311]

Endlessly?

Probably not, but the point is addiction is stigmatized and way too few resources are available. Put the money we're using on the failed war on drugs into rehab and medical programs. Portugal has done it and the results have been positive.

[Noir]

Endlessly?

The practicality of limited resources would probably dictate not, however, given the ability to do so I do not think someone who is trying to fight an addiction should have help withheld.

[Drummond]

And who pays for this repeated help?:clap::clap::clap:

EXACTLY !!

[Drummond]

What price liberty?

Injuries soar after Michigan stops requiring motorcycle helmets (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-helmetlaws-michigan-injury-idUSKBN0UL2JN20160107)



What the hell was the point of this post, FJ ? Michigan and helmeting issues have ZERO to do with heroin !! Congrats on a pointless thread derail-attempt.

[Drummond]

The practicality of limited resources would probably dictate not, however, given the ability to do so I do not think someone who is trying to fight an addiction should have help withheld.

Addictions don't last forever, IF the substance the addict is addicted to is withdrawn. I'm wholly in favour, as has been suggested, of throwing addicts in a padded cell for 30 days and let them lose their addiction that way. Minimal cost to 'The State' .. and a desired result at the end of the term. Job done !!!

To me, this is a criminality issue (heroin, hard drugs generally). See that they're outlawed. Institute the most aggressive program of law enforcement AGAINST THE PUSHERS, ensuring the eradication of the supply. Do that, and the 'padded cell' incarcerations can themselves be reduced to an absolute minimum. Oh, and if it can be proven that any addict has died from the drug supply from any particular addict, then the pusher should be charged with murder, a death sentence rendered mandatory from a successful conviction !

I've always been in favour of zero tolerance in society towards drug taking and 'pushing', and I've never seen reason to change my mind. Nor, I'm sure, will I.

FJ, instead of more thread derailing, how about you address the subject ? Treat us to the LIBERAL point of view you crave to 'push'. Go for it .......

[Drummond]

The practicality of limited resources would probably dictate not, however, given the ability to do so I do not think someone who is trying to fight an addiction should have help withheld.

Padded cells would help enormously.

[Drummond]

Probably not, but the point is addiction is stigmatized and way too few resources are available. Put the money we're using on the failed war on drugs into rehab and medical programs. Portugal has done it and the results have been positive.

'addiction is stigmatized' .. meaning, let's find a way of looking upon it as tolerantly as possible. Such tolerance leads to a social 'acceptance' of it, at least, to the point where it's felt that it's more of an 'illness' than the product of a CRIME, needing to be WIPED OUT.

Can you honestly tell me that such an attitude doesn't perpetuate its incidence, therefore, however indirectly, it LEADS TO MORE DEATHS ?? And I note you refer to 'the failed war on drugs' ... OR ... acceptance that it will perpetuate !!

I regard this as a good example of Leftie destructiveness in action. Lives should be SAVED from CRIMINAL ACTS, such as the criminal pushing of ultimately lethal substances !!! And - not consigned to the maximum chance of DEATH, for the sake of a preferred societal norm !!!!!!

You might as well dump a cocktail of poisons into a reservoir, and say the law should look the other way !!! Seriously, what's so very different between the two acts of drug dissemination, since both may kill in large numbers ??

[pete311]

'addiction is stigmatized' .. meaning, let's find a way of looking upon it as tolerantly as possible. Such tolerance leads to a social 'acceptance' of it, at least, to the point where it's felt that it's more of an 'illness' than the product of a CRIME, needing to be WIPED OUT.

Can you honestly tell me that such an attitude doesn't perpetuate its incidence, therefore, however indirectly, it LEADS TO MORE DEATHS ?? And I note you refer to 'the failed war on drugs' ... OR ... acceptance that it will perpetuate !!

I regard this as a good example of Leftie destructiveness in action. Lives should be SAVED from CRIMINAL ACTS, such as the criminal pushing of ultimately lethal substances !!! And - not consigned to the maximum chance of DEATH, for the sake of a preferred societal norm !!!!!!

You might as well dump a cocktail of poisons into a reservoir, and say the law should look the other way !!! Seriously, what's so very different between the two acts of drug dissemination, since both may kill in large numbers ??

You can talk all this and guess what it aint working. Let's keep doing what doesn't work. What kind of world you want to live in. Simply chastising people doesn't work. You can just say people should be better. That doesn't mean anything. You can just say all this stuff but guess what, nothing will change until you realize we need to take a 180 on this front and center instead of criminalizing and stigmatizing. Anti-Stigmatizing meaning stop driving drug abuse underground where no one gets helped because society makes them ashamed of a medical condition. Look what Portugal has done. They have decriminalized all drugs and all their stats are going down. It's a fact, get over it. We need to try something new.

[pete311]

Padded cells would help enormously.

You don't know shit. Yeah let's jail people for a medical condition. Guess what, they get clean and go back to their life, a life that drove them to drug a addiction. They need holistic care.

[Noir]

Addictions don't last forever, IF the substance the addict is addicted to is withdrawn. I'm wholly in favour, as has been suggested, of throwing addicts in a padded cell for 30 days and let them lose their addiction that way. Minimal cost to 'The State' .. and a desired result at the end of the term. Job done !!! To me, this is a criminality issue (heroin, hard drugs generally). See that they're outlawed. Institute the most aggressive program of law enforcement AGAINST THE PUSHERS, ensuring the eradication of the supply. Do that, and the 'padded cell' incarcerations can themselves be reduced to an absolute minimum. Oh, and if it can be proven that any addict has died from the drug supply from any particular addict, then the pusher should be charged with murder, a death sentence rendered mandatory from a successful conviction ! I've always been in favour of zero tolerance in society towards drug taking and 'pushing', and I've never seen reason to change my mind. Nor, I'm sure, will I.

I don't think you're taking into account
A) The mental issues that drove to taking the drug in the first place.
And
B) The mental issues caused by drug addiction.

[Gunny]

I live in a large midwest city and it's not that obvious. I wouldn't know where to go. For serious addiction the free places are not enough. You need serious in-patient holistic care. The problem is that just treating the addiction is not enough. There is a reason they started. You need to also solve that or they will almost certainly relapse. Not to mention many people with addiction also suffer from mental illness. It horribly complicates the situation, as with my family member who is schizophrenic bi-polar. That is a nightmare combination and the system is totally failing her. There are extremely few places that dual treat. She either gets kicked out of a hospital for being high or kicked out of a treatment center for having a mental illness.

I can speak only from my own experience. I certainly don't excuse addicts, because they bring lot of crap down on themselves, and worse, they bring Hell down on those that care about them. I will point out that while Obaa is more than willing to provide care for people that don't do a damned thing to earn it, there's very little that pays for standing up and addict, dusting him off and pointing him in the right direction. Addiction is seen a s a sign of weakness, even by people who are too weak to even land a damned job. Guess they got to feel good about themselves over something.

And anyone that wants to have an actual conversation on the matter gets met with the proverbial brick wall. Sure, I chose to lose everything I had in life but my clothes, a truck and a few tools. I was just too happy when I had everything. :rolleyes:

And wherever Drummond is, jail isn't the answer. You're not going to cure an addict by force. Throw me in jail for 30 days and I'm counting days to my next bottle. You can't forcefeed people that crap. I have to want to quit more than I don't, or you're wasting your time. Then there're the people like Pete's talking about that have a chemical issue. The addiction may be habit, but the process that leads you to it can be a REAL problem. If you ain't thinking straight, your decisions ain't going to be straight either.

As an example, I used to watch these goof addicts act like total retards and wonder why. I thought I was smarter than them, and fact is, I am. That's not bragging. It makes me worse than any of them. They can't help it. I had no excuse but feeling sorry for myself. Crap, I had everyone on these message boards hating me. You wonder why you think I'm something new when the reality is I was here before you. LONG before. I didn't pop up out of thin air. I had to walk away because I wasn't being fair to those around me.

It's a lot more complicated an issue than you think, and locking up and it affects us all. I constantly wonder why everyone on Planet Earth can get pain killers but me. I actually need the damned things for what they are designed for. But because some idiots (and I am referring to the dealers) have turned it into a market, I can't get shit. So why even make them if the people that need them can't have any but some unscrupulous f*ck can sell them at $50 a tab? Put THEM in jail. And as far as I'm concerned, you can line the tobacco and alcohol pushers right behind them.

[Gunny]

The practicality of limited resources would probably dictate not, however, given the ability to do so I do not think someone who is trying to fight an addiction should have help withheld.

If we got enough money to fight a global climate change we can't do jack sh*t about, we have enough to help those that truly are in need and want help.

[Gunny]

:clap::clap::clap:

EXACTLY !!

Know what ... I'd rather pay to help someone who is in need than give a single dime to one of these politicians to support their hair-brained crap. And DO not that "truly in need" is NOT the same as "I am entitled so give me." I have zero sympathy for those that won't help themselves.

[Gunny]

Addictions don't last forever, IF the substance the addict is addicted to is withdrawn. I'm wholly in favour, as has been suggested, of throwing addicts in a padded cell for 30 days and let them lose their addiction that way. Minimal cost to 'The State' .. and a desired result at the end of the term. Job done !!!

To me, this is a criminality issue (heroin, hard drugs generally). See that they're outlawed. Institute the most aggressive program of law enforcement AGAINST THE PUSHERS, ensuring the eradication of the supply. Do that, and the 'padded cell' incarcerations can themselves be reduced to an absolute minimum. Oh, and if it can be proven that any addict has died from the drug supply from any particular addict, then the pusher should be charged with murder, a death sentence rendered mandatory from a successful conviction !

I've always been in favour of zero tolerance in society towards drug taking and 'pushing', and I've never seen reason to change my mind. Nor, I'm sure, will I.

FJ, instead of more thread derailing, how about you address the subject ? Treat us to the LIBERAL point of view you crave to 'push'. Go for it .......

You are incorrect , sir. Withdrawing the substance does not change the underlying problem one bit. Addiction is a personality, not an item. You have to cure the disease, not the symptom.

[Gunny]

I don't think you're taking into account
A) The mental issues that drove to taking the drug in the first place.
And
B) The mental issues caused by drug addiction.

How come it is you can breeze in and make the right side of an argument sound stupid?

[pete311]

You are incorrect , sir. Withdrawing the substance does not change the underlying problem one bit. Addiction is a personality, not an item. You have to cure the disease, not the symptom.

I hear with Heroin especially (alcohol too) that you are never cured, but always recovering. There are stories of people who have been clean for 20 years and they say they still think about taking a hit every day. Absolutely evil stuff.

[Gunny]

I hear with Heroin especially (alcohol too) that you are never cured, but always recovering. There are stories of people who have been clean for 20 years and they say they still think about taking a hit every day. Absolutely evil stuff.

Heroin and alcohol are like in a single context ... you stop, you get sick. Only one way to fix sick. More of the same. I still want a drink every damned day. Especially when our lovely society is so looking out for us that they have Cuervo commercial making asshats look too cool for school. Go ahead and ask Jim or Abs, or Kathianne what a happy camper I am after a few shots. And I drink the shit straight, no mixer. Right out of the bottle.

We glamourize smoking and drinking in every facet of life and refuse to see it for what it is. Humphrey Bogart was my hero. He was always downing shots and having a smoke. My grandfather who was my real hero had the Boston Blackie moustache to go with it. He died before he was my age because of it. Just couldn't put down the smokes.

But as you have said and I am saying, there's got to be a way besides the blame game from people who think they're so much better to reach the actual issue. If you think your 300 pounds of lard ass is going to live longer than mine when I can still see my belt buckle and wear the same size clothes I did in high school, maybe you ought to quit whining about me smoking and go on a diet.

[fj1200]

What the hell was the point of this post, FJ ? Michigan and helmeting issues have ZERO to do with heroin !! Congrats on a pointless thread derail-attempt.

:facepalm99: It was an example of individuals engaging in risky behavior (i.e. drug use) and the possible costs to society (treatment).


Treat us to the LIBERAL point of view you crave to 'push'. Go for it .......

My answer would be nothing compared to your imaginary ravings.

[Drummond]

You can talk all this and guess what it aint working. Let's keep doing what doesn't work.

OR .. you find a way to make it work !! How about that ?? Is it really so hard to pass some laws, and then enforce them ? Did it occur to you that tough laws have a way of deterring, especially after some initial arrests are seen in the pursuit of them ? Try making specific deaths attributable to the pusher who supplied the poison that did it, apply a law that mandates the death penalty for it, then suddenly see successes happen where none did before. Or are you determined to fight all possible avenues of progress ... eh ?


What kind of world you want to live in. Simply chastising people doesn't work.

And giving in, DOES ???

How about a world where needless, avoidable deaths, DO NOT HAPPEN ? Would that be so very terrible ??


You can just say people should be better. That doesn't mean anything.

Because ... YOU said it .. ??


You can just say all this stuff but guess what, nothing will change until you realize we need to take a 180 on this front and center instead of criminalizing and stigmatizing. Anti-Stigmatizing meaning stop driving drug abuse underground where no one gets helped because society makes them ashamed of a medical condition. Look what Portugal has done. They have decriminalized all drugs and all their stats are going down. It's a fact, get over it. We need to try something new.

You absolutely insist on NOT cracking down on it !! You'll fight, tooth and nail, any argument that isn't defeatist, instead preferring to concede that poison-pushing MUST happen !! Well, guess what ? I am not a Leftie, and so I say, NO. NO. NO.

What's next ? Decriminalising terrorism ??? Hard drugs kill. Guess what .. so do terrorists. Suggest you join FJ on a 'Let's Be Kind To Terrorists' week .... after all, where are poppies chiefly grown, and whose coffers does that trade fill, anyway .. ??

Think about that one. Could it be that support of hard-drug taking facilitates terrorism ?? Care to show me that it definitely does NOT ???

[Drummond]

:facepalm99: It was an example of individuals engaging in risky behavior (i.e. drug use) and the possible costs to society (treatment).

Try crossing the road in the Strand, in central London, during rush hour. Or walking on Tube tracks in between trains arriving. THAT, too, could be classified as 'risky behaviour' ... but it's got zero to do with the thread subject !! Just as your attempt, here, at thread jacking, ALSO doesn't.

[Gunny]

'addiction is stigmatized' .. meaning, let's find a way of looking upon it as tolerantly as possible. Such tolerance leads to a social 'acceptance' of it, at least, to the point where it's felt that it's more of an 'illness' than the product of a CRIME, needing to be WIPED OUT.

Can you honestly tell me that such an attitude doesn't perpetuate its incidence, therefore, however indirectly, it LEADS TO MORE DEATHS ?? And I note you refer to 'the failed war on drugs' ... OR ... acceptance that it will perpetuate !!

I regard this as a good example of Leftie destructiveness in action. Lives should be SAVED from CRIMINAL ACTS, such as the criminal pushing of ultimately lethal substances !!! And - not consigned to the maximum chance of DEATH, for the sake of a preferred societal norm !!!!!!

You might as well dump a cocktail of poisons into a reservoir, and say the law should look the other way !!! Seriously, what's so very different between the two acts of drug dissemination, since both may kill in large numbers ??

I'll put it to you this way Drummond .. take it for what it's worth. You can't always just wash shit away. Y'all wonder why I'm so jacked up but you never ask why. Ever seen a baby set on fire just because of a stupid religion? You think that crap goes away 30 years later? Or do you wake up in the middle of the night seeing the same old shit? And nobody understands.

And when you can't deal, you can't deal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4zOSjjqAaw

[Drummond]

You are incorrect , sir. Withdrawing the substance does not change the underlying problem one bit. Addiction is a personality, not an item. You have to cure the disease, not the symptom.

We will have to disagree on that one, then. I'm inclined to think that if an addictive personality wants to shoot heroin into himself, but hey, there's none to be had (!!) ... then just maybe he won't die of heroin poisoning ?

I wonder. In a world where Socialism was totally discredited, where self-worth was always paramount as a dominant trait of the population, instead of the hive mind slavery of 'belonging to the State, as its property' ... could human existence be SO worthwhile, the opportunities so boundless, that any so-called 'addictive personality' traits might never emerge ? Because right now, what we've got is a Leftie or 2 finding endless excuses to pander to the drug victim, AND the availability of the drug itself !!!

If you learned of a group of people who wanted to chuck lethal substances in a reservoir, would you conclude that an ability to always catch the perpetrators at it wasn't possible to guarantee, therefore, they should be allowed to try it ???

Perhaps terrorism really should be legalised ? You can't always catch drug pushers. You can't always be sure of catching terrorists, either. Both kill. Better .. tolerate them, then ... ? After all, terrorists have the disease of subhumanity driving them. Let's be understanding to the scum ..........

[Gunny]

We will have to disagree on that one, then. I'm inclined to think that if an addictive personality wants to shoot heroin into himself, but hey, there's none to be had (!!) ... then just maybe he won't die of heroin poisoning ?

I wonder. In a world where Socialism was totally discredited, where self-worth was always paramount as a dominant trait of the population, instead of the hive mind slavery of 'belonging to the State, as its property' ... could human existence be SO worthwhile, the opportunities so boundless, that any so-called 'addictive personality' traits might never emerge ? Because right now, what we've got is a Leftie or 2 finding endless excuses to pander to the drug victim, AND the availability of the drug itself !!!

If you learned of a group of people who wanted to chuck lethal substances in a reservoir, would you conclude that an ability to always catch the perpetrators at it wasn't possible to guarantee, therefore, they should be allowed to try it ???

Perhaps terrorism really should be legalised ? You can't always catch drug pushers. You can't always be sure of catching terrorists, either. Both kill. Better .. tolerate them, then ... ? After all, terrorists have the disease of subhumanity driving them. Let's be understanding to the scum ..........

I know what it's like to kill someone. And I know what it's like to live with it.

[Drummond]

I'll put it to you this way Drummond .. take it for what it's worth. You can't always just wash shit away. Y'all wonder why I'm so jacked up but you never ask why. Ever seen a baby set on fire just because of a stupid religion? You think that crap goes away 30 years later? Or do you wake up in the middle of the night seeing the same old shit? And nobody understands.

And when you can't deal, you can't deal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4zOSjjqAaw

Yes, I see what you're saying. There are situation and experiences that can't be handled, or maybe coped with at all adequately. Even if I can't imagine it, I get that it happens and that you just can't resolve any of it with a snapping of your finger.

All the more reason, then, to keep poison away from those whose use of it may, and probably will, kill them ?

Don't tackle shit .. don't even try in any meaningful way .. and you risk the great likelihood of it overwhelming you. It may not be possible to eradicate it. Not entirely. But how about 50 percent of it. Or sixty percent. That's sixty percent of victims who'll not die of what it can do. A life lost, needlessly, is gone once it's gone, as I'm sure, Gunny, you know way better than I do !!!

And, by the way ... your clip. Taking its subject-matter very broadly ... as bad as the war was, as horrific as its effects and the human costs were, fighting it, fighting to WIN, made the world a better place. That victory was necessary. Just as the all-out war against heroin and other hard drugs supply is also necessary, just as the world will be a better place without it.

Imagine a mother hooked on heroin. Will her child fare well, maybe losing the mother way too soon ? How about a pregnant woman, who takes heroin out of sheer need, who is poisoning herself AND her unborn baby ?? Perhaps some Leftie will like to preach a message of TOLERANCE, and/or DEFEATISM, to me in the face of such horrors .. ?

[Drummond]

I know what it's like to kill someone. And I know what it's like to live with it.

I'm well aware that you do. Human life has worth (I'm damned sure you don't need the likes of me to tell you that !!). Working to save even one innocent life that'd otherwise be lost to poison, is surely a worthwhile effort ?

[Noir]

I wonder. In a world where Socialism was totally discredited, where self-worth was always paramount as a dominant trait of the population, instead of the hive mind slavery of 'belonging to the State, as its property' ... could human existence be SO worthwhile, the opportunities so boundless, that any so-called 'addictive personality' traits might never emerge ?

You are really are quite keen on getting a dig in on socialism/leftism/liberalism somehow some way - no matter the topic.
You seem about half a yard away from 'Waiter! I wish to complain about a hair in my soup, if only socialism were discredited maybe hairs would never find there way into soups'

[revelarts]

I say Yes, Help,
because in the long run it will cost us all more if we don't help.
HOW we help is another story.

getting people off. is best. but it's not easy.
I'm getting to the point where i think all drugs should be legal but controlled.
Drs given incentive NOT to over medicate. Big illegal sellers busted... Hard. Little sellers hit so it's not worth it... but not criminal. Addicts treated and made difficult to get a NEW fix.

All tall orders but that's the direction I'd like to go.

[Drummond]

You are really are quite keen on getting a dig in on socialism/leftism/liberalism somehow some way - no matter the topic.
You seem about half a yard away from 'Waiter! I wish to complain about a hair in my soup, if only socialism were discredited maybe hairs would never find there way into soups'

Your comments, I must observe, don't really have much of substance to them.

Socialism is its own brand of poison. How 'remarkable', then, that those most likely to find ways of defending the LESSENING of any fight to eradicate hard drug availability, instead finding excuses to be 'liberal' about it, just 'happen' to be Socialists ??

Facts are facts. Show me, here, a Socialist contributor who wants the strongest and most uncompromising crackdown on the hard drug 'trade' it's possible to try to bring about ?? NO .. they make EXCUSES to do far LESS, instead .. !!

In the meantime, it continues. Deaths happen. Can you know that uncompromising measures won't save lives ? OF COURSE YOU CAN'T.

Here's the thing. Socialists care about social order, to the extent that they have control over it. But individual lives have far less significance to them. This is how they can, and do, support policies which don't maximise the saving of those lives.

And you wonder why I'm against Socialism at every opportunity ? How can a decent human being, Noir, NOT BE ???

Any other Lefties care to excuse Society of responsibility for a life-saving, no-nonsense drug crackdown ? Form an orderly queue, why don't you ??

[Noir]

Any other Lefties care to excuse Society of responsibility for a life-saving, no-nonsense drug crackdown ? Form an orderly queue, why don't you ??

To clarify, do you think the responsibility lies with the society, and not individuals, on the issue of drugs?

[Drummond]

To clarify, do you think the responsibility lies with the society, and not individuals, on the issue of drugs?

With both, I'd say. Society has a responsibility to wipe it out to the very best of its ability, to adopt a zero policy to it, to regard it as poison, or if you 'prefer' (I've a funny feeling you won't !!) a social cancer. So .. criminalising it all to the fullest extent is an absolute necessity, and any society failing to, is derelict in its duty.

Individuals also have responsibilities to meet. To never threaten others with drug pushing, for example. Victims, to ensure they're never hooked on the stuff in the first place, or if they are, to report the scum supplying it to the police, before being admitted into an institution (even be it a padded cell) for immediate detoxification.

Society has a protective duty to its population .. it's why they have armies to defend them, for example. Equally, police forces exist to obey laws which are meant to serve the people subject to them. Such laws as are necessary for that task need to be in place and rigorously enforced. Such as the strongest possible laws to sweep illicit, hard drugs from the streets and so to protect its would-be victims from harm.

[Drummond]

If we got enough money to fight a global climate change we can't do jack sh*t about, we have enough to help those that truly are in need and want help.

.. or, to add to police forces to enhance their ability to sweep the streets of drug-pushing scum ? Kill off the supply, and that 'supply' has no power or means to do any harm.

[Noir]

Society has a responsibility to wipe it out to the very best of its ability, to adopt a zero policy to it, to regard it as poison, or if you 'prefer' (I've a funny feeling you won't !!) a social cancer. So .. criminalising it all to the fullest extent is an absolute necessity, and any society failing to, is derelict in its duty.

This includes alcohol?

[Perianne]

I suppose it all comes down to how much society owes its members. We owe our veterans everything they need for a healthy life. As for others, I recall a quote by Thomas Sowell:

Since this is an era when many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your fair share of what someone else has worked for?

[indago]

I suppose it all comes down to how much society owes its members. We owe our veterans everything they need for a healthy life. As for others, I recall a quote by Thomas Sowell:

Since this is an era when many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your fair share of what someone else has worked for?

That brings to mind:

"I believe that that policy is best for this country which brings prosperity first to those who toil; give them first the inspiration to work and then protect them in the enjoyment of their rightful share of the proceeds of their toil, and their prosperity will find its way up to the other class of society which rests upon them. I challenge you to find in the pages of recorded history a single instance where prosperity came from the upper crust of society; it always comes from the masses, --- the foundation of society." — Congressman William Jennings Bryan - 1896

[Gunny]

Yes, I see what you're saying. There are situation and experiences that can't be handled, or maybe coped with at all adequately. Even if I can't imagine it, I get that it happens and that you just can't resolve any of it with a snapping of your finger.

All the more reason, then, to keep poison away from those whose use of it may, and probably will, kill them ?

Don't tackle shit .. don't even try in any meaningful way .. and you risk the great likelihood of it overwhelming you. It may not be possible to eradicate it. Not entirely. But how about 50 percent of it. Or sixty percent. That's sixty percent of victims who'll not die of what it can do. A life lost, needlessly, is gone once it's gone, as I'm sure, Gunny, you know way better than I do !!!

And, by the way ... your clip. Taking its subject-matter very broadly ... as bad as the war was, as horrific as its effects and the human costs were, fighting it, fighting to WIN, made the world a better place. That victory was necessary. Just as the all-out war against heroin and other hard drugs supply is also necessary, just as the world will be a better place without it.

Imagine a mother hooked on heroin. Will her child fare well, maybe losing the mother way too soon ? How about a pregnant woman, who takes heroin out of sheer need, who is poisoning herself AND her unborn baby ?? Perhaps some Leftie will like to preach a message of TOLERANCE, and/or DEFEATISM, to me in the face of such horrors .. ?


I'm well aware that you do. Human life has worth (I'm damned sure you don't need the likes of me to tell you that !!). Working to save even one innocent life that'd otherwise be lost to poison, is surely a worthwhile effort ?

I wish y'all would quit wanting to kill each other.

[sundaydriver]

The reasons and demographics for heroin addiction have changed over the years. No longer is it only recreational users or people self medicating their emotional issues but has become an issue for the largest part due to prescription opiate overuse for medical reasons. Never before have middle class, older, and women been addicts in such numbers. As initiatives to slow down use or the cost of the prescription drugs driven the use of heroins rise. As you can't afford your pain meds anymore you can replace it with something at 1/5th the cost and easier to get. You're already a legal addict so the next step isn't difficult.

http://www.drugabuse.gov/about-nida/legislative-activities/testimony-to-congress/2015/americas-addiction-to-opioids-heroin-prescription-drug-abuse

[Jeff]

I recall a few years back I had a motorcycle, a BMW R60US. It was a couple of years old when I bought it. One day I did some tuneup on it, and polished it up — it was black, with some white pinstriping on it — and took the saddlebags off of it. Then, took it out for a run. I went on the interstate and wound it up til the speedo hit the top pin. It was like flying through the air — no helmet. Then I slowed it down and returned home. I thought about that many times later, thinking about what would have happened if I lost control of it. I wouldn't be here talking about it.

I am not sure what the size the R60US is but if you where running flat out and went down a helmet wasn't going to do nothing for ya anyway. Had a Brother back in the day that was running in triple digits and was pushed off the road by a " I never seen the bike lady " when he left the road he hit a telephone pole and had limbs just blow off, but he had his helmet on, a yea he still went to the box.

[Jeff]

Not meaning to be offensive by any means whatsoever on this topic, but you aren't the only one on this board that knows about addiction. Try being the addict. We resent people like you. Heroin's illegal. A bottle of Jack ain't. I can walk right up to the store and and get one legally right now. And I'd LOVE to have a drink. Only it's never just one. I can kill a bottle in less than a day. I get up every morning knowing I can't have one. I'm a complete ass when I get going. And I am quite destructive when I get going. Good thing they got a babyfood section and I can can go choose Oatmeal with cinnamon and raisins instead.

Y'all act like this all about you, when it's really all about us. Y'all don't consider the fact that, at least in my case, reality was just a little too real and there are certain things you can't deal with. Y'all don't see babies set on fire. You might have a different opinion if you did.

So maybe that brother of yours can't deal with something. If he is willing to help himself, it's your responsibility to help him. If he isn't willing, don't waste your time until HE is ready.

I agree with both you and Pete more or less, addiction is horrible for all, the addict and his/her family all suffer. I was put on pain pills years ago and yea they run my life, and yes they are legal. See I didn't even have to go to the liquor store and buy them, I took them because getting up and down off the couch was getting near impossible the pain was so bad, hell when my feet would just go numb was the best, but of course after just a bit they would go to burning so bad they felt like they where in a fire, and the feet aren't the worst part. Well no sense going into my pain history but yea the only way I could do anything productive was to take these little red and blue pills. 2 a day of one 4 a day of the other ( I only take 3 a day unless the pain is that bad that night ) I would take the 2 a day at 7 and 7 the 3 a day 7,3 and 11 and have done so for years. After back surgery I was able to cut the dose in half of the one but now by 9 at night I start going through withdrawals, they are horrible. The pills are a have to in order to live any kind of normal life but when the withdrawals kick in I sometimes wonder if it is even worth it, all this and the Doc tells me it is possible I could wind up in a wheelchair someday anyway. Yea being a addict sucks ( legal or not ) but watching a loved one go through this must suck also, I see the look in my ol lady's eyes, I hear my kids asking Mommy if Dad is going to be OK, and hell I even watch my brothers in the club try their best to understand and not treat me any different than any one else, Yea it sucks for all.

[NightTrain]

What Gunny says is true. An addict cannot be forced to recover.

It doesn't matter how many 'free' treatment programs / facilities / groups there are available, every one of them will have a 100% failure rate if the addicts don't want to change.

Yeah, you can put them in jail for 30 days to dry them out. Or a year. But if they are being forced to sober up from their choice of poison, they will promptly return to it. That is a universal truth, and it does not change until that person decides internally to change.

Beyond that, even if you do lock them up to sober them up... I think we've all heard about the rampant drug problem inside prison. If a person wants something badly enough, they will figure out a way to get it.



I haven't been entirely forthcoming as to the circumstances of my little brother's death a year ago... it is still painful to talk about. He died of medical complications, but it was 100% brought about from drinking.

All of us 3 brothers enjoyed our booze. Travis, the youngest, mostly stuck to beer, along with my middle brother. I enjoyed both beer and hard liquor, depending on my mood and who I was with. We all led successful lives and prospered, starting our families and moving up the economic chain in our respective fields with no fallout from drinking... we were all responsible about it, for the most part.

Travis got married to a woman that I perceived as evil from the get-go, but there's nothing anyone can do to change something like that, so I kept my mouth shut. She quickly became the shrew that I'd suspected her of being, and would launch into vicious verbal attacks on him when he'd come home after work and have a few beers. It wasn't long before he began hiding his drinking from her, an action that really doesn't fool anyone. Molson Ice bottles are rather conspicuous, so he started buying fifths of vodka and ramming them down straight out in his shed. That didn't fool her either, of course, and her attacks escalated to the "I can't wait for you to die!" variety.

I tried talking to him, and so did my other brother, but he would not be dissuaded. He'd flat out lie about it, even while I was pointing out the dozen or so empty vodka bottles I'd spotted in his hidey-hole I stumbled across while helping him move something one day.

They ended up getting divorced, and she used the kids as a way to punish him. It was vicious, and they were both guilty of horrible behavior.

We as a family planned and executed an intervention, which is a very ugly scenario when the target is hostile to people interfering. It lasted about 2 hours before he called the cops and they told us that while they appreciated what we were trying to do, we had to leave his property. That made him sober up for about a week, but he was quickly back to gulping down straight vodka in short order and we all knew it wasn't going to be long before he killed himself drinking. Appeals to him about the future of his kids or his own deteriorating health didn't stop him. I flat out told him that I didn't want to raise his kids; I wanted HIM to raise his kids. Nothing worked. He always denied everything and got pissed that we were 'in his business'.

He ended up having a drinking induced seizure at my Mom's house while recovering from a 3-day bender, and fortunately she was standing right there when it happened. The hospital installed a trach while he was in a medically-induced coma for 3 weeks as they dealt with alcohol withdrawals, type-1 diabetes and combined with other injuries and was hopped up on painkillers. At first they didn't give him much hope, but he pulled through. All of us were at the hospital daily after work to help him, and we thought maybe this would change his mind. The doctors all told him that if he drank even one more time, he was a goner. He was good for about a month after he got out of the hospital, and he'd aged 20 years or so, but he reverted to his old ways again.

The local doc kept him supplied with some pretty potent Oxys, and he was addicted bigtime. Worse, he liked ramming vodka on the sly with those, which really multiplies the effect - and harm. His liver, what was left of it, was really taking a beating.

His ex-wife, in the meantime, had developed her own addiction to painkillers. She began a systematic program of reward / punishment with seeing his kids. If she got some of his painkillers, he was allowed to see the kids. No painkillers? You're a prick, no kids for you. The monthly prescription was issued in the form of a large bottle of oxys, and they would blow through that in a few days.

He finally keeled over and died by himself one day in his disabled person's apartment, and my Mom was the one who found him. The official report read that he'd had a massive heart attack, but the toxicology report told the story : lots of booze and painkillers in his system. I comforted my Mom as best I could as the paramedics and cops performed cpr on him to try and bring him back. They worked him over for about 45 minutes and finally gave up. I sent my Mom & family home and later helped the cops stuff him into a body bag and carry him out to the Medical Examiner's pickup when she finally showed up. I deal with death worse than anyone I know, but I'm the oldest sibling and did what had to be done. That night weighs on me greatly.

His ex-wife showed up at the scene and attempted to take some of his stuff before he was even in the body bag. I told her to put his laptop down and to get the fuck out. I knew she was looking for his painkillers, along with anything of value she could grab. The cops backed me up on that and she quickly left with a look of sheer hatred on her face.

I cleaned out his apartment by myself for the most part. My Mom (and myself) were guilt-ridden because we'd both failed to go over and check on him that day, and we'd both planned to but didn't because things cropped up.
That changed a bit when I found about 20 empty fifths hidden in his closet under some clothes. I stood them all on his kitchen table and called my Mom over, so she could see the proof of what he'd been up to. The bottles illustrated that it really didn't matter that we'd both failed to check up on him that day, because he was going to drink whether or not we'd checked on him that fateful day. If we had showed up and thereby prevented him from drinking, it would have happened as soon as we left.

The empty bottles were proof of that, all the while assuring us in a very irritated manner that he wasn't drinking.

Now none of us have any kind of contact with his kids, even though they were raised with all of us in our big family with all their cousins, camping, fishing, going to the cabin, BBQs, birthdays, holidays, etc.. I know they don't understand what happened and all they hear is what their mother is telling them - which, I'm sure, is nothing close to the truth. And that's heartbreaking, but eventually they'll learn the truth when they turn 18. I have quite a few things of his that I'm storing until they're 18, like his guns, coin collection, personal stuff... if I gave them his stuff now, they'd be quickly sold off to buy painkillers.

Even when staring death in the face and being told in no uncertain terms by doctors that any more drinking would kill him, he still chose the bottle over everything else.

Anyway, sorry for the wall of text... just my miserable experience with addiction and how it destroys otherwise wonderful lives - especially innocent ones. Not only were his kids robbed of their Daddy at a young age, (and his youngest won't remember him at all), they were also removed from the entire family and feel abandoned by everyone. It kills me.

[Jeff]

Wow, I am not going to pull threads but Wow :laugh:

How many folks put that needle in their arm for one reason, to find the ultimate high, they weren't running from a dam thing, they just wanted to get stoned, I agree there are many that are running from reality or hiding from something so painful they choose to skin pop instead of deal with it ( hell many can't ) but lets not fool ourselves, many get hooked for no other reason than they are looking for the ultimate high, hell I did all kind of bad things when I was younger, but my riding partner back in the day made me promise him never ever try heroin, he told me Bro I have know you since you where a kid and you have been chasing that high for a long time, if ya ever try it you may not put it down, I truly looked up to this guy ( he was 10 years or so older than myself, rode with a large outlaw club, yea back when I was a kid I sure enough listened to his advice ) So I never did heroin and never got hooked, instead I got hooked and drugs that I have never taken to just get high.

Then I see folks saying we should have to pay for these addictions, out of all you folks that believe that how many feel the sin tax on Liquor or cigarettes is OK ? Both addictions just like the big H that y'all want to throw money at but for some reason these addictions you should have to pay for yourself but because you wanted ( not all now ) but because you wanted the ultimate high everyone should pay.

We have a place in the upstate of SC, it's for folks with addictions to about anything, you go there and they get you clean, and then you stay there as long as a couple years helping others get clean, or basically paying back for what was done for you. I have a Brother there now, he is a alcoholic, he got in trouble with the law and well it was this place or prison ( where the drugs will cost more but are just as if not more plentiful then on the street ) This guy has like 14 more months to go, he was home at Thanksgiving time ( last I seen him anyway ) and looks great and is doing great, says he doesn't mind working up there at all because he is helping others, he just married his Ol Lady a couple of weeks ago, this place has really changed his life. Now not everyone can help with counseling and stuff like that, they all have a story to tell, and all can do something, whether it is cooking, maintenance on the building or medical all can help. And that is the cost of the help you get from them.

Then FJ :laugh: ( I'm sure ya knew I was going to have to chime in on the helmet deal ) every time I cross into SC I pull my helmet off and throw it on the dash of the bike, if on the Wide Glide I pull over and strap it to the bars, I honestly don't believe that while I am running 75-80 coming down 85 that if I go down that piece of plastic is going to help much, Now like yesterday I went down to Gwinett on 85 ( man what fun that is, we went to that bike show down there ) yea ya are in so much traffic the speeds for the most part aren't that high and yes I keep my helmet on there and believe it may help, but I also believe when it is time to punch out no helmet is going to help ya, just my opinion of course.

[Gunny]

Wow, I am not going to pull threads but Wow :laugh:

How many folks put that needle in their arm for one reason, to find the ultimate high, they weren't running from a dam thing, they just wanted to get stoned, I agree there are many that are running from reality or hiding from something so painful they choose to skin pop instead of deal with it ( hell many can't ) but lets not fool ourselves, many get hooked for no other reason than they are looking for the ultimate high, hell I did all kind of bad things when I was younger, but my riding partner back in the day made me promise him never ever try heroin, he told me Bro I have know you since you where a kid and you have been chasing that high for a long time, if ya ever try it you may not put it down, I truly looked up to this guy ( he was 10 years or so older than myself, rode with a large outlaw club, yea back when I was a kid I sure enough listened to his advice ) So I never did heroin and never got hooked, instead I got hooked and drugs that I have never taken to just get high.

Then I see folks saying we should have to pay for these addictions, out of all you folks that believe that how many feel the sin tax on Liquor or cigarettes is OK ? Both addictions just like the big H that y'all want to throw money at but for some reason these addictions you should have to pay for yourself but because you wanted ( not all now ) but because you wanted the ultimate high everyone should pay.

We have a place in the upstate of SC, it's for folks with addictions to about anything, you go there and they get you clean, and then you stay there as long as a couple years helping others get clean, or basically paying back for what was done for you. I have a Brother there now, he is a alcoholic, he got in trouble with the law and well it was this place or prison ( where the drugs will cost more but are just as if not more plentiful then on the street ) This guy has like 14 more months to go, he was home at Thanksgiving time ( last I seen him anyway ) and looks great and is doing great, says he doesn't mind working up there at all because he is helping others, he just married his Ol Lady a couple of weeks ago, this place has really changed his life. Now not everyone can help with counseling and stuff like that, they all have a story to tell, and all can do something, whether it is cooking, maintenance on the building or medical all can help. And that is the cost of the help you get from them.

Then FJ :laugh: ( I'm sure ya knew I was going to have to chime in on the helmet deal ) every time I cross into SC I pull my helmet off and throw it on the dash of the bike, if on the Wide Glide I pull over and strap it to the bars, I honestly don't believe that while I am running 75-80 coming down 85 that if I go down that piece of plastic is going to help much, Now like yesterday I went down to Gwinett on 85 ( man what fun that is, we went to that bike show down there ) yea ya are in so much traffic the speeds for the most part aren't that high and yes I keep my helmet on there and believe it may help, but I also believe when it is time to punch out no helmet is going to help ya, just my opinion of course.

Well said. I'd rep you but your stingy ass brother won't let me.:laugh:

It's a double edged sword. And as I pointed out, I don't need anyone's sympathy. I made my own bed. And I'm the last to feel sorry for someone that won't help himself. But when I needed help there was this grumpy old Vietnam vet named Bob that was about as kind and understanding as I am. He told me to quit feeling sorry for myself and grab ahold of my bootstraps. There wasn't nothing nice about Bob. Trust me.

But I made it through the day because of him. He's deceased now.

So I'm torn. I can't stand helping those who won't help themselves. But I understand what it's like to need help and being too proud to ask for it. I'm all for helping those that need it. But don't waste my time.

[Jeff]

Well said. I'd rep you but your stingy ass brother won't let me.:laugh:

It's a double edged sword. And as I pointed out, I don't need anyone's sympathy. I made my own bed. And I'm the last to feel sorry for someone that won't help himself. But when I needed help there was this grumpy old Vietnam vet named Bob that was about as kind and understanding as I am. He told me to quit feeling sorry for myself and grab ahold of my bootstraps. There wasn't nothing nice about Bob. Trust me.

But I made it through the day because of him. He's deceased now.

So I'm torn. I can't stand helping those who won't help themselves. But I understand what it's like to need help and being too proud to ask for it. I'm all for helping those that need it. But don't waste my time.


Yea Jim is a prick like that :laugh::laugh:

Bro I had someone very close to me that was molested when she was young, a real bad scene but we will just let that go, a good friend of mine ( who just happened to be a Vietnam Vet ) were talking about it in the yard one day and his exact words where, what the fuck, can't do a dam thing about it now, so she needs to pull up her big girl panties on and get on with life. Was it harsh advice , maybe, but to me it was spot on. I never cry like a beotch about my personal issues because if ya look someone always has it worse off. Between his advice and what I live by she has managed for the most part put all this sheot behind her. Again if ya listen sometimes ya learn something, no matter how crudely put it made perfect sense.

[Drummond]

This includes alcohol?

I was waiting for that ! Noir, obviously I see where you're going with this. However, heroin doesn't have the same status as alcohol. And this thread is about heroin, possibly about hard drugs as well. Alcohol discussions are therefore just a diversion.

Tell me, Noir, do you really need that diversion, to continue to argue your corner ??

And in any case, this still doesn't mean doing NOTHING. Even partial success in cracking down will save lives. Lives otherwise LOST.

Quite a pity Lefties can't value those particular lives ... eh ? ..

[Perianne]

I wonder what Darwin would think of people who insist on using heroin and other hard drugs? I wonder how his theory would view those who expect others to take care of them?

[sundaydriver]

It makes me wonder, which is more cost effective, treat or drug induced crime. Treatment is expensive but what are the hidden costs of addiction with crime costs, prison expenses, extra police, insurance for thefts, and etc.. I bet that tops treatment costs.

[Gunny]

I was waiting for that ! Noir, obviously I see where you're going with this. However, heroin doesn't have the same status as alcohol. And this thread is about heroin, possibly about hard drugs as well. Alcohol discussions are therefore just a diversion.

Tell me, Noir, do you really need that diversion, to continue to argue your corner ??

And in any case, this still doesn't mean doing NOTHING. Even partial success in cracking down will save lives. Lives otherwise LOST.

Quite a pity Lefties can't value those particular lives ... eh ? ..

Pete and I get along about as far as the color of the sky goes. But it takes one to know one. Noir is one of those people that is so secure in his smug ass shit he can't figure out the rest of us. Then he wants to cry about being picked on. Poor little victim.:rolleyes:

[Voted4Reagan]

Help should be offered,
failure should be expected,
Help should be offered,
[repeat.]

no matter the cost? when is enough enough??

[Noir]

no matter the cost? when is enough enough?? The cost is too much when the person asking for help isn't worth helping. You're free to consider when you think that is.

[Drummond]

no matter the cost? when is enough enough??

Exactly !! Follow this road, and there's never an end to it. The problem persists without hope in sight of any real resolution, even a partialy successful one. It's like being in a leaky boat. Bail out the water quickly enough ... you just barely keep afloat. But the 'solution' isn't one. The leak persists, and you can never stop bailing out that water.

Better to plug the leak. Tackle the problem meaningfully. A crackdown would do it. Would it be entirely successful ? FOR EACH AND EVERY LIFE SAVED FROM ENSLAVEMENT TO DRUG ADDICTION, AND ULTIMATE DEATH ... YES !!!

Lefties preferring to tackle 'a bigger picture', and be defeatist, would effectively betray every life that would otherwise be lost through far more stringent action, action stemming or eradicating supply entirely. But THEY'LL DO IT, BECAUSE TO THEM, THOSE LIVES CAN BE WRITTEN OFF. FOR THE 'BIGGER PICTURE' !!

[pete311]

Portugal is doing the right thing and all their stats are going down.
http://mic.com/articles/110344/14-years-after-portugal-decriminalized-all-drugs-here-s-what-s-happening

"The panel goes away, comes back and says, 'Decriminalize everything, from cannabis to crack. But -- and this is the crucial next step -- let's spend all the money we currently spend on arresting drug users, trying drug users, imprisoning drug users, and just put all that money to reconnect drug addicts with society. To give them a purpose in life.'"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/03/portugal-drug-decriminalization_n_6606056.html

[Drummond]

Portugal is doing the right thing and all their stats are going down.
http://mic.com/articles/110344/14-years-after-portugal-decriminalized-all-drugs-here-s-what-s-happening

"The panel goes away, comes back and says, 'Decriminalize everything, from cannabis to crack. But -- and this is the crucial next step -- let's spend all the money we currently spend on arresting drug users, trying drug users, imprisoning drug users, and just put all that money to reconnect drug addicts with society. To give them a purpose in life.'"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/03/portugal-drug-decriminalization_n_6606056.html

Decriminalise everything, you say. I see.

Pete, hard drugs are poison. Every and all deaths from it attest to that, just in case, somehow, in your Leftie zeal, you'd missed that !! So, OK ... what else that's deadly do we decriminalise, I mean, why stop JUST there ? How about a law decriminalising homicide itself ??? How about one decriminalising terrorist acts, and all their consequences, so that if a terrorist attack happens on a street in downtown USA, all the police can ever do is stand around and LET IT HAPPEN ????

No - I say you draw a line in the sand. Having drawn it, YOU ACT TO FIX THE PROBLEM !! You don't act to make sure it is NEVER fixed !!!!!!

As to your link .. three points. One, it seems to me that what we have here is a juggling, in the mind's eye, of how that problem is seen ... if it's viewed differently, the very impact of it to the ordinary person is lessened, so effectively, and to a point at least, it seems to 'go away'. Recategorise a problem, redefine the way it's regarded, as you may well do by the approach you take to it, then as something you're alert to, it can seem to be seen as something else. Like ... a Leftie saying you're more likely to be run over by a 52 bus than be blown up. Whether true or not, THE SAME DANGERS REMAIN THERE, ALWAYS, NEVER TACKLED. But, the same danger recedes in importance .. much though it never, EVER, should !!

Two .. seems to me that you can only see a problem if it's there to see. I question the stats saying that drug abuse has been cut in half. Decriminalise drugs, and what does that mean to the public's perception of it as a problem ? It says that it seems to lessen, or even go away, AS that problem. So ... what if addicts themselves are prone to that lessening of perception, and think decriminalisation means that a threat to life isn't actually there, that it's 'not' a major problem needing urgent and high-profile, dynamic cleaning-up, because the authorities show no signs of being galvanised into it ? RESULT .. an addict becomes one, thinks he's perfectly OK with the addiction, even though it's slowly killing him. He'll not become a statistic AT ALL, maybe, until he DIES.

Now, tell me that this is to be preferred !!

Three -- a simple point you gloss over (i.e actually ignore). Their program is one that leads to great and continuous expenditure. One only recoverable through such things as taxation, maybe ? And, you know what ? Portugal has an ailing economy !! In our media, over here, there was talk of Portugal one day going the way of Greece ! So face this fact ... what you're so keen to support, DRAINS economies, and with a cost that never stops.

And that's a GOOD thing ? I really don't think so, Pete. Never-ending expenditure on a problem which never really goes away, because it's NOT REALLY MEANINGFULLY TACKLED !!!!

Typical of the Left ... eh ?? And typical that your link was from the Huffington Post, too, a Leftie outfit peddling Leftie liberalism .. with a predictable result.

[Gunny]

The cost is too much when the person asking for help isn't worth helping. You're free to consider when you think that is.

Who are you to decide who is worth helping? Oh I forgot ... that book that preaches forgiveness is a bit too rough for you. :rolleyes:

[Gunny]

Portugal is doing the right thing and all their stats are going down.
http://mic.com/articles/110344/14-years-after-portugal-decriminalized-all-drugs-here-s-what-s-happening

"The panel goes away, comes back and says, 'Decriminalize everything, from cannabis to crack. But -- and this is the crucial next step -- let's spend all the money we currently spend on arresting drug users, trying drug users, imprisoning drug users, and just put all that money to reconnect drug addicts with society. To give them a purpose in life.'"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/03/portugal-drug-decriminalization_n_6606056.html

There is no "right answer". If I knew it, I'd be rich. Decriminalization is nothing more than giving the addict what he wants. I don't see that as the answer. Look at our country. We got a bunch of dopeheads that can't or won't even protect themselves. They'll vote for Hillary knowing she's a criminal.

Unlike some who want to toss the baby out with the bathwater, I'd prefer a solution. But that solution has to start with the person.

[Noir]

Who are you to decide who is worth helping? Oh I forgot ... that book that preaches forgiveness is a bit too rough for you. :rolleyes:

My posts are clear, if someone asks for help, you give them help. It's other people in this thread that are responding to me with comments like "endlessly?" "When is enough enough" 'why should i pay for them' etc.
They are the ones you should be directing these comments towards.

[Abbey Marie]

My posts are clear, if someone asks for help, you give them help. It's other people in this thread that are responding to me with comments like "endlessly?" "When is enough enough" 'why should i pay for them' etc.
They are the ones you should be directing these comments towards.


I am the one who queried the one word, "Endlessly?", to your comment "help, repeat, help, repeat".

That you cannot answer it, is your problem.

[Noir]

I am the one who queried the one word, "Endlessly?", to your comment "help, repeat, help, repeat".

That you cannot answer it, is your problem.

Given the ability to do so - help should not be denied to those asking for it.
Do you agree with that statement?

[Abbey Marie]

Given the ability to do so - help should not be denied to those asking for it.
Do you agree with that statement?

I agree in general. Do you think that repeated help should be given endlessly? Is there any corresponding responsibility on the druggie's part, in your mind?

[Perianne]

My posts are clear, if someone asks for help, you give them help. It's other people in this thread that are responding to me with comments like "endlessly?" "When is enough enough" 'why should i pay for them' etc.
They are the ones you should be directing these comments towards.

Who should have to pay for their corresponding healthcare?

[Noir]

I agree in general. Do you think that repeated help should be given endlessly? Is there any corresponding responsibility on the druggie's part, in your mind?

If you have the ability to help, and someone asks for help, then you help.
If you do not have the ability to help, and someone asks for help, then you can not help.
Fit in whatever you define as 'endlessly' between those to statements.
Ability is not endless, but the desire to help if able is.

[Noir]

Who should have to pay for their corresponding healthcare?

If they can not pay for their healthcare then the State should assist.

[Perianne]

The cost is too much when the person asking for help isn't worth helping. You're free to consider when you think that is.

Who I consider worth helping is probably different from who you consider worth helping. I am a strong advocate of Social Darwinism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism).

[Abbey Marie]

So, let's explore a bit:

Should we give new livers to alcoholics, etc., endlessly, also? For example, David Crosby has had two so far. Either of those could have gone to someone with non-lifestyle-caused liver disease, I'd assume.

How about new pancreas' to Diabetics who don't control their blood sugar?

[Abbey Marie]

http://hillsidefree.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/PrayerWorks-PageTitlesm.png

[Noir]

So, let's explore a bit:

Should we give new livers to alcoholics, etc., endlessly, also? For example, David Crosby has had two so far. Either of those could have gone to someone with non-lifestyle-caused liver disease, I'd assume.

How about new pancreas' to Diabetics who don't control their blood sugar?

You are pretty much never going to have parity when it comes to two people in need of an organ donation - maybe one person needs it because of drug abuse when the others failed due to a virus, maybe one of the patients is in their 50s and the other in their 30s, maybe one has a wife and kids and the other doesn't etc etc. That is for the doctors to discuss and decide and is not something that comes with a black/white yes/no answer.

[Kipper]

It is better with Marijana how Sanders want's in the US or what he say in election ? Marijana is better for sleep. And I take 3 pieces to mine for 12 and 13 or 14 year back step. I was 16 and 17 age when I taste 3 pieces. After my third I kill my dog in forest then police come to at home and take my to mental sickness. Arested for murderer my familys only one animal.

:cool: ;)

[Perianne]

It is better with Marijana how Sanders want's in the US or what he say in election ? Marijana is better for sleep. And I take 3 pieces to mine for 12 and 13 or 14 year back step. I was 16 and 17 age when I taste 3 pieces. After my third I kill my dog in forest then police come to at home and take my to mental sickness. Arested for murderer my familys only one animal.

:cool: ;)

Hmmm.

[Drummond]

You are pretty much never going to have parity when it comes to two people in need of an organ donation - maybe one person needs it because of drug abuse when the others failed due to a virus, maybe one of the patients is in their 50s and the other in their 30s, maybe one has a wife and kids and the other doesn't etc etc. That is for the doctors to discuss and decide and is not something that comes with a black/white yes/no answer.

Nothing ever DOES have a black and white answer, eh, Noir ... not to a Leftie. Truth be told, the only answers anyone should accept are those decreed by 'our Socialist masters'. Eh, Noir .. isn't this what you believe ??

To us 'neanderthal' Righties, Noir .. we see a problem, we feel a solution must be found, then, we work to apply it. Easy, maybe. Tough, maybe. But it's found and applied.

Nobody can die of drugs if the drugs aren't available. You cut off the supply. Problem solved.

[Kipper]

Hmmm.

Yes I am hurted too when familys dog missed life before 3 human year. One will I get dying in 17 year so I kill my dog. Only small dog so i get to forest stoned and hang over him. After he died I were in mental house and tell about marijana. Sickness when one will I die before I am 18 year old.

Jesus Christ save me from death in mental house.

[Gunny]

My posts are clear, if someone asks for help, you give them help. It's other people in this thread that are responding to me with comments like "endlessly?" "When is enough enough" 'why should i pay for them' etc.
They are the ones you should be directing these comments towards.

People get tired of trying to help when it's pouring money down the drain. I get that. I can recall sitting in an AA meeting and making up every excuse why I wasn't an addict but turns our I was. And not one of those people was judgmental of me. They'd all been there. They just sat ans listened to me talking all kinds of crap when I didn't have a clue. I was too busy being me.

I can understand people resenting that. But when you actually need help someone's got to be around to give it.

[Drummond]

Yes I am hurted too when familys dog missed life before 3 human year. One will I get dying in 17 year so I kill my dog. Only small dog so i get to forest stoned and hang over him. After he died I were in mental house and tell about marijana. Sickness when one will I die before I am 18 year old.

Jesus Christ save me from death in mental house.

I certainly agree with your last sentence, Kipper. You may need a prayer in that regard. Consider it done.

[fj1200]

Try crossing the road in the Strand, in central London, during rush hour. Or walking on Tube tracks in between trains arriving. THAT, too, could be classified as 'risky behaviour' ... but it's got zero to do with the thread subject !! Just as your attempt, here, at thread jacking, ALSO doesn't.

I can lead a horse to water... :unsure:

[Kipper]

I certainly agree with your last sentence, Kipper. You may need a prayer in that regard. Consider it done.

I need more money from my good man to alcoholic till exampel.

[fj1200]

Then FJ :laugh: ( I'm sure ya knew I was going to have to chime in on the helmet deal ) every time I cross into SC I pull my helmet off and throw it on the dash of the bike, if on the Wide Glide I pull over and strap it to the bars, I honestly don't believe that while I am running 75-80 coming down 85 that if I go down that piece of plastic is going to help much, Now like yesterday I went down to Gwinett on 85 ( man what fun that is, we went to that bike show down there ) yea ya are in so much traffic the speeds for the most part aren't that high and yes I keep my helmet on there and believe it may help, but I also believe when it is time to punch out no helmet is going to help ya, just my opinion of course.

I was surprised at the results from dropping the helmet requirement but I suppose I shouldn't have been. Riding a motorcycle certainly isn't drugs but engaging in "risky" behavior can have costs on society. When I cut through SC yesterday (check your PM ;) ) I saw a couple of riders without helmets and it didn't even dawn on me to ditch the lid; and it was cold. Liberty isn't liberty if it ends up costing society in the end.

[Abbey Marie]

You are pretty much never going to have parity when it comes to two people in need of an organ donation - maybe one person needs it because of drug abuse when the others failed due to a virus, maybe one of the patients is in their 50s and the other in their 30s, maybe one has a wife and kids and the other doesn't etc etc. That is for the doctors to discuss and decide and is not something that comes with a black/white yes/no answer.


Well, at least you appear to understand that some things are not limitless. The point is, regardless of the specific situation, do we use up valuable (and limited) resources for people who are recidivist in their risky behaviors? Your idea that if someone needs help, well, we should just help them, all the time, over and over again, sounds nice in theory. But we must live in reality. There will never actually be enough for everyone, because there will always be somewhere else the resources could be used beneficially. Which means someone loses out.

[Jeff]

I was surprised at the results from dropping the helmet requirement but I suppose I shouldn't have been. Riding a motorcycle certainly isn't drugs but engaging in "risky" behavior can have costs on society. When I cut through SC yesterday (check your PM ;) ) I saw a couple of riders without helmets and it didn't even dawn on me to ditch the lid; and it was cold. Liberty isn't liberty if it ends up costing society in the end.

Did so and responded. :thumb:

[Perianne]

Today on Washington Journal (C-SPAN) they are having a segment on opioid abuse. Ugggh. It reminds me of work.

An increasing number of our patients are drug addicts with serious healthcare problems.

[jimnyc]

Today on Washington Journal (C-SPAN) they are having a segment on opioid abuse. Ugggh. It reminds me of work.

An increasing number of our patients are drug addicts with serious healthcare problems.

I hate them. Heroin being the worst. I know 2 friends that died from heroin overdoses. And no, never even remotely touched that crap. And then the lesser stuff, the pills, from the higher end Oxycodone, down to the hydrocodone, vicodin & hydromorphone and the rest.

SO many get hooked simply from being injured, and then getting addicted. Others go for it without pain. Either way, opiods are very addictive, and then a lot of folks simply keep on the drug because getting off of them is so difficult. I don't need to tell you, but there are a LOT of people addicted to this crap across the nation.

[Perianne]

I hate them. Heroin being the worst. I know 2 friends that died from heroin overdoses. And no, never even remotely touched that crap. And then the lesser stuff, the pills, from the higher end Oxycodone, down to the hydrocodone, vicodin & hydromorphone and the rest.

SO many get hooked simply from being injured, and then getting addicted. Others go for it without pain. Either way, opiods are very addictive, and then a lot of folks simply keep on the drug because getting off of them is so difficult. I don't need to tell you, but there are a LOT of people addicted to this crap across the nation.

Where would Darwin rate them on his scale?

[jimnyc]

Where would Darwin rate them on his scale?

With the knowledge out there today, for those who jump into it anyway - give them a 10 out of 10.

For those that have no idea, and are legitimately in pain, and find out they are addicted after their surgeries when they go to get rid of the bottle? I don't know how I feel about that. I went through that, and I feel innocent - BUT - I knew damn well that it felt great, and I DID in fact take more than necessary at times because it felt so good. :(

[Perianne]

With the knowledge out there today, for those who jump into it anyway - give them a 10 out of 10.

For those that have no idea, and are legitimately in pain, and find out they are addicted after their surgeries when they go to get rid of the bottle? I don't know how I feel about that. I went through that, and I feel innocent - BUT - I knew damn well that it felt great, and I DID in fact take more than necessary at times because it felt so good. :(

I am different, so that makes me feel superior. Okay. I admit it.

When I had the stupid cervical radiculopathy (pinched nerve), I took 10mg percocets. I felt nothing from them except relief of pain. I did not get high or feel good, so I don't understand the feeling.

[jimnyc]

I am different, so that makes me feel superior. Okay. I admit it.

When I had the stupid cervical radiculopathy (pinched nerve), I took 10mg percocets. I felt nothing from them except relief of pain. I did not get high or feel good, so I don't understand the feeling.

You're not the only one. My Mom hated them and said they made her feel crappy, but certainly no "good" feeling. My wife was recently prescribed hydrocodone for her hip, and she said it only helped the pain a little, and she didn't really feel anything from them. I know quite a few people that have said similar to you. I also have talked to folks who said they took it for awhile, stopped abruptly and never had an issue. Weird!

[NightTrain]

I am different, so that makes me feel superior. Okay. I admit it.

When I had the stupid cervical radiculopathy (pinched nerve), I took 10mg percocets. I felt nothing from them except relief of pain. I did not get high or feel good, so I don't understand the feeling.

Sounds like you're one of the few that don't get the euphoria from them. I do, and it's feels good for a couple of days (when I'm recovering from one of my ghastly injuries) but then I quickly get to hating it.. possibly because I know the addiction is starting.

[Perianne]

This Republican congressman from NY, John Katko, is comparing the opioid epidemic to the Zika virus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zika_virus) and complaining how much worse the opioid problem is, but is getting much less attention.

What Mr. Katko is overlooking is that opioid use is a choice, while the Zika virus is not.

He thinks we should spend whatever it takes for treatment.

[WiccanLiberal]

Not sure I have the answer. Maybe there is no one good answer. I do know that addicts of any substance will NEVER give up their addiction unless they are ready. I have more career related experience with alcohol abuse. I worked in a facility that was in a kind of split personality town. Very expensive neighborhoods and, quite literally, the other side of the tracks. We got individuals admitted to the ICU all the time ranging from the very wealthy to the indigent poor with "impending DTs". Basically the cops had them for something related to their addiction and they had the option of hospital or jail. I can tell you I would see the same faces every three months like the swallows returning to Capistrano. We would dry them out on heavy doses of tranquilizers and send them out and they would stay sober for a bit then go back to old habits. ICU care is EXPENSIVE. But cold turkey is dangerous. People die of it because of the extreme catecholamine release. For every miserable filthy addict or drunk I have cared for, there always seemed to be someone who would be hurt if they were gone. For that reason alone, I would want to offer help as often as needed. Maybe the next time would be the time that something clicks.
There is another problem though that I don't believe has been addressed. Forgive me if I err. That is the issue of the undertreated mentally ill. Many of them should be under treatment but because they have no insurance or no real awareness of their illness do not get what they need. Instead they find alcohol or street drugs alleviating their symptoms.
We have ways of treating physical pain but all of these addictions are more about mental and emotional pain to my way of thinking. I work in a profession with an extremely high rate of substance abuse. Chemical dependence is a scourge in all medically related professions. I have seen good people lose careers over this issue. Like Gunny, many of us have seen too much we cannot assimilate. Maybe not in the same way, but we see life and death much more vividly and hauntingly than the average citizen.