Nobody belives in hell. Not believing is hell. And Finding your voice [Archive] - Debate Policy

View Full Version : Nobody belives in hell. Not believing is hell. And Finding your voice

darin

12-30-2015, 09:21 AM

This guy's series of videos are fantastic. Touching. And scripture-based and the 'institutional church' probably hates them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F27jxwHDrzM

fj1200

12-30-2015, 05:30 PM

This guy's series of videos are fantastic. Touching. And scripture-based and the 'institutional church' probably hates them

And anyone else who frequently dooms people to hell.

revelarts

12-30-2015, 08:19 PM

Black Diamond

12-30-2015, 08:29 PM

darin

12-31-2015, 01:03 AM

“...And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell,....”
Jesus (Matthew 5:29-30)

Gehenna. Not "eternal hell". A place of wasteland. The point Christ made is this: Better lose your arm than suffer because you stole something, or hurt someone. Does not speak to the point of the video, nor the points made in the video.

[/B]"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Jesus (Matthew 23:28

that's not mathew 23:28.
Mathew 23:27-28 “You’re hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You’re like manicured grave plots, grass clipped and the flowers bright, but six feet down it’s all rotting bones and worm-eaten flesh. People look at you and think you’re saints, but beneath the skin you’re total frauds.

"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."
Jesus (Luke 12:5)

Again Gehenna. And it's not 'be afraid' - it's 'show reverance'.

"I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have [B]the keys of hell and of death."
Jesus (Revelations 1:18)

And why does he have the keys of hell and death? Because He went there, freed the captives (So that part is already done from a time perspective), and will throw hell into...the (lake of fire) substance of heaven and Hell and Death (note: not PEOPLE/SOULS) will be NO MORE.

Seems like something Jesus believed in, so we might want to take it seriously as well.
but if this guy in the video knows better than Jesus, well then maybe we should listen to him instead.

Maybe you should research what is written. Bounce that off what you know of God's love. And come to terms with why the Church is okay worshipping an ego maniac and petulent tyrant.

You are missing the word play. And your last quote goes perfectly to the video's point. AND without knowing which "hell" is being translated your verses are not adding to the discussion.

darin

12-31-2015, 01:05 AM

And anyone else who frequently dooms people to hell.

Too mang "christians" get their rocks off thinking - like muslims think - people will be punished forever. Huge scientific and spiritual problems with that line of thinking

revelarts

12-31-2015, 03:18 AM

Gehenna. Not "eternal hell". A place of wasteland. The point Christ made is this: Better lose your arm than suffer because you stole something, or hurt someone. Does not speak to the point of the video, nor the points made in the video.
where does Jesus say it's NOT eternal hell? where does Jesus talk about TEMPORARY hell "forever and ever" dmp?

the point of the video is Hell,
Jesus uses the term Ghenna... also known as Hell.
in general terms potato poTAto.

that's not mathew 23:28.
Again Gehenna. And it's not 'be afraid' - it's 'show reverance'.

you're right, it was Mathew 10:28
New International Version
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

English Standard Version
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Berean Study Bible
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Berean Literal Bible
And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

New American Standard Bible
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

King James Bible
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And you shall not be afraid of those who kill the body that are not able to kill the soul; rather be afraid of him who can destroy soul and body in Gehenna.”

it looks like SOULS have problem in Ghenna as well as bodies.

And why does he have the keys of hell and death? Because He went there, freed the captives (So that part is already done from a time perspective), and will throw hell into...the (lake of fire) substance of heaven and Hell and Death (note: not PEOPLE/SOULS) will be NO MORE.

Seems Matthew 10 Jesus says someones souls are in hell.
and at the end of Revelations 21:
Jesus says

4 And He will wipe-away every tear from their eyes. And there will no longer be death, nor will there be mourning nor crying nor pain any longer, because the first thingspassed away”. And the One sitting on the throne said, “Behold— I am making all things new”. And he says, “Write, because these words are trustworthy and true”. And He said to me, “They are done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. Tothe one thirsting, I will give from the spring of the water of life as-a-gift. The one overcoming will inherit these things, and I will be God to him and he will be a son to Me. But for the cowardly ones, and unbelieving[ ones, and ones having been abominable, and murderers, and sexually-immoral ones, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars— their part will be in the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death”...

Maybe you should research what is written. Bounce that off what you know of God's love. And come to terms with why the Church is okay worshipping an ego maniac and petulent tyrant.
I've done a fair amount of research. and i start with what God says and align that with my "feelings" and personally notions of what i think God's love should look like.
and Alllow God to be God and understand that he's Loving and Righteous and punishing evil is not a fault, and he's perfectly JUST in doing judgment and what he wills with his creation.

You are missing the word play. And your last quote goes perfectly to the video's point. AND without knowing which "hell" is being translated your verses are not adding to the discussion.
It seems you're MAKING the word play, and the video -and you- assert that the use of the terms lake of fire and Ghenna are significantly different than what they imply in every instance. a literal place of punishment for the soul and body.

if you want to argue about the various judgments to get there etc OK sure there's "play" there. If you want to debate if it's Just the soul at one point and then the soul AND the body at another then Ok,
If you want to debate if PRE-Christ return and after Hell/lake of fire are the exact same things OK fine.
but one can not with much credibility dispute the fact that Jesus teaches that souls and bodies who have not trusted him for salvation, who've continued in sins, will be punished in a flame like environment. And that punishment is not given an end date.

Revelation 14
9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself will also drink from the wine of the fury of God having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they do not have a rest by day and by night

Revelation 19:2
2 Because His judgments are true and righteous.

DMP if you have a problem with that don't assume i have bad motives for pointing this out. I came to Jesus as savior of my ignorant and rebellious soul to His reality. I then decided early on that God knew better than me. Look If i thought Jesus and the disciples taught there was NO hell, i wouldn't pretend that they did. But i refuse to pretend the opposite just to make you or others feel better or to try and make God seem "more loving" to today's confused western mind.

And as Jesus said no matter what God does some people will complain.

... "For John the Baptist came neither eating nor drinking, and they said ‘He has a demon!’. The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say ‘LOOK— a man who is a glutton and drunkard, a friend of tax-collectors and sinners’....

darin

12-31-2015, 03:50 AM

where does Jesus say it's NOT eternal hell? where does Jesus talk about TEMPORARY hell "forever and ever" dmp?

the point of the video is Hell,
Jesus uses the term Ghenna... also known as Hell.
in general terms potato poTAto.

you're right, it was Mathew 10:28
New International Version
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

English Standard Version
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Berean Study Bible
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Berean Literal Bible
And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

New American Standard Bible
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

King James Bible
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And you shall not be afraid of those who kill the body that are not able to kill the soul; rather be afraid of him who can destroy soul and body in Gehenna.”

it looks like SOULS have problem in Ghenna as well as bodies.

Seems Matthew 10 Jesus says someones souls are in hell.
and at the end of Revelations 21:
Jesus says

4 And He will wipe-away every tear from their eyes. And there will no longer be death, nor will there be mourning nor crying nor pain any longer, because the first thingspassed away”. And the One sitting on the throne said, “Behold— I am making all things new”. And he says, “Write, because these words are trustworthy and true”. And He said to me, “They are done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. Tothe one thirsting, I will give from the spring of the water of life as-a-gift. The one overcoming will inherit these things, and I will be God to him and he will be a son to Me. But for the cowardly ones, and unbelieving[ ones, and ones having been abominable, and murderers, and sexually-immoral ones, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars— their part will be in the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death”...

I've done a fair amount of research. and i start with what God says and align that with my "feelings" and personally notions of what i think God's love should look like.
and Alllow God to be God and understand that he's Loving and Righteous and punishing evil is not a fault, and he's perfectly JUST in doing judgment and what he wills with his creation.

It seems you're MAKING the word play, and the video -and you- assert that the use of the terms lake of fire and Ghenna are significantly different than what they imply in every instance. a literal place of punishment for the soul and body.

if you want to argue about the various judgments to get there etc OK sure there's "play" there. If you want to debate if it's Just the soul at one point and then the soul AND the body at another then Ok,
If you want to debate if PRE-Christ return and after Hell/lake of fire are the exact same things OK fine.
but one can not with much credibility dispute the fact that Jesus teaches that souls and bodies who have not trusted him for salvation, who've continued in sins, will be punished in a flame like environment. And that punishment is not given an end date.

Revelation 14
9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself will also drink from the wine of the fury of God having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they do not have a rest by day and by night

Revelation 19:2
2 Because His judgments are true and righteous.

DMP if you have a problem with that don't assume i have bad motives for pointing this out. I came to Jesus as savior of my ignorant and rebellious soul to His reality. I then decided early on that God knew better than me. Look If i thought Jesus and the disciples taught there was NO hell, i wouldn't pretend that they did. But i refuse to pretend the opposite just to make you or others feel better or to try and make God seem "more loving" to today's confused western mind.

And as Jesus said no matter what God does some people will complain.

... "For John the Baptist came neither eating nor drinking, and they said ‘He has a demon!’. The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say ‘LOOK— a man who is a glutton and drunkard, a friend of tax-collectors and sinners’....

Summarize that for me?

What I'm taking from that is this: You are, uh, hell-beant on arguing for something you already believe. Yet there is strong evidence what you and I and millions other believe is simply fear-mongering and attempts to control. The arguments against you using any of the three states of "hell" and considering them synonimous with 'eternal and ever-lasting torment' are short-sighted. The video shows why plain use of 'hell' in this way is innacurate and incompatible with scripture. Couple that with the biblical fact Christ already freed those in captivity - in hell - and I think it's pretty clear our understanding of "hell" - as taught by "The Church" is probably wrong. There is no biblical reference to 'endless death'.

God is love. God makes all things new. God's consuming Fire - his consuming fire makes ALL things new (Rev. 21). Death and Sin(ners) shall be refined in the lake that burns with brimsone (brimstone: divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease.) That last part is the second death. It is an event. That event does what to the cowardly and murderers? It PURIFIES them. Does not destroy them or does not cause them torment for beyond the end of time.

To assume things are so cut and dry is to probably deny the power of god's Love.

revelarts

12-31-2015, 05:05 AM

Summarize that for me?

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And you shall not be afraid of those who kill the body that are not able to kill the soul; rather be afraid of him who can destroy soul and body in Gehenna.”

Revelations
4 And He will wipe-away every tear from their eyes. And there will no longer be death, nor will there be mourning nor crying nor pain any longer, because the first thingspassed away”. ... But for the cowardly ones, and unbelieving[ ones, and ones having been abominable, and murderers, and sexually-immoral ones, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars— their part will be in the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death”...

"will be in" this is AFTER Jesus has wiped every tear,
which IS not was or is going away and non existent.

What I'm taking from that is this: You are, uh, hell-beant on arguing for something you already believe. arguing for what seems to be the way it is. and not wishing it was the way that fits MY personal picture of "love"

Yet there is strong evidence what you and I and millions other believe is simply fear-mongering and attempts to control.
Whether or not someone MISUSES facts doesn't change the facts.

The arguments against you using any of the three states of "hell" and considering them synonimous with 'eternal and ever-lasting torment' are short-sighted.
is it generally and genuinely TRUE is the 1st question i want to answer.

The video shows why plain use of 'hell' in this way is innacurate and incompatible with scripture. I think many of the "translation techniques that guy uses are fanciful. and as you've done several times, applied symbolic meaning and structures around items that that the text doesn't clearly support but happen to fit your peculiar view.

Couple that with the biblical fact Christ already freed those in captivity - in hell - and I think it's pretty clear our understanding of "hell" - as taught by "The Church" is probably wrong. There is no biblical reference to 'endless death'.
"...And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they do not have a rest by day and by night..."

God is love. God makes all things new. God's consuming Fire- his consuming fire makes ALL things new (Rev. 21).Death and Sin(ners) shall be refined in the lake that burns with brimsone (brimstone: divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease.)
ALSO
...God is Holy, God is Just, GOD hates Sin, the face of the Lord is against them that do evil...
Thank God he's merciful and loving but he will punish evil. and all evil is not said to be purged generically just because God is a fire.
(BTW it's convient to think of God as literal fire of some sort but not Hell, nice trick)

That last part is the second death. It is an event. That event does what to the cowardly and murderers? It PURIFIES them. Does not destroy them or does not cause them torment for beyond the end of time.
To assume things are so cut and dry is to probably deny the power of God's Love.
to ASSUME it purifies is to extrapolate in the most extreme way just to see what you want to see.

Sorry, other verses make clear that "there's no rest day and night" and Humans," the beast" the "false prophet" etc are in the "lake of fire"
Revelation 20:10
And the devil, the one deceiving them, was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur— where both the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented by day and by night forever and ever.

there's no talk of Satan's or Hells "purification" outside of fanciful extrapolation that clearly IGNORE verse like those above.

darin

12-31-2015, 05:33 AM

Summarize that for me?

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And you shall not be afraid of those who kill the body that are not able to kill the soul; rather be afraid of him who can destroy soul and body in Gehenna.”

Revelations
4 And He will wipe-away every tear from their eyes. And there will no longer be death, nor will there be mourning nor crying nor pain any longer, because the first thingspassed away”. ... But for the cowardly ones, and unbelieving[ ones, and ones having been abominable, and murderers, and sexually-immoral ones, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars— their part will be in the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death”...

And yet you refuse to read the rest of that passage. And you refuse to understand the purpose of word usage. Brimstone. Why the author wrote that. Used that word. The true intent of the author doesn't matter to your ideology.

What I'm taking from that is this: You are, uh, hell-beant on arguing for something you already believe. arguing for what seems to be the way it is. and not wishing it was the way that fits MY personal picture of "love"

Yet there is strong evidence what you and I and millions other believe is simply fear-mongering and attempts to control.
Whether or not someone MISUSES facts doesn't change the facts.

Do you believe God wins or loses?

The arguments against you using any of the three states of "hell" and considering them synonimous with 'eternal and ever-lasting torment' are short-sighted.
is it generally and genuinely TRUE is the 1st question i want to answer.

You can't decide FIRST if it's true or false THEN try to understand it.

The video shows why plain use of 'hell' in this way is innacurate and incompatible with scripture. I think many of the "translation techniques that guy uses are fanciful. and as you've done several times, applied symbolic meaning and structures around items that that the text doesn't clearly support but happen to fit your peculiar view.

Translation techniques used by King James were built from intent to control. The guy in the video, and I tend to agree with his process, refers to the orgin of the text while maintaining context; context - the intend of the author.

Couple that with the biblical fact Christ already freed those in captivity - in hell - and I think it's pretty clear our understanding of "hell" - as taught by "The Church" is probably wrong. There is no biblical reference to 'endless death'.
"...And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they do not have a rest by day and by night..."

So that line you wrote contradicts this: 23 You see, all have sinned, and all their futile attempts to reach God in His glory fail. 24 Yet they (They means 'all) are now saved and set right by His free gift of grace through the redemption available only in Jesus the Anointed.

God is love. God makes all things new. God's consuming Fire- his consuming fire makes ALL things new (Rev. 21).Death and Sin(ners) shall be refined in the lake that burns with brimsone (brimstone: divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease.)
ALSO
...God is Holy, God is Just, GOD hates Sin, the face of the Lord is against them that do evil...
Thank God he's merciful and loving but he will punish evil. and all evil is not said to be purged generically just because God is a fire.
(BTW it's convient to think of God as literal fire of some sort but not Hell, nice trick)

...which is why God speaks through scripture about destroying sin. And Sin and Death 'shall be no more'. Hell = Sin/Death. God destroys them through HIS fire that burns with Cleansing incense (brimstone). Folks need god to punish the evil-doers because it builds ourselves up. "See, TOLD YA!".

That last part is the second death. It is an event. That event does what to the cowardly and murderers? It PURIFIES them. Does not destroy them or does not cause them torment for beyond the end of time.
To assume things are so cut and dry is to probably deny the power of God's Love.
to ASSUME it purifies is to extrapolate in the most extreme way just to see what you want to see.

So you're saying because I'm writing about what words actually mean, and what the words mean is contrary to your views that God is a loser, you're dismissing the argument.

revelarts

12-31-2015, 11:03 AM

And yet you refuse to read the rest of that passage. And you refuse to understand the purpose of word usage. Brimstone. Why the author wrote that. Used that word. The true intent of the author doesn't matter to your ideology.

yes the context of Brmstone every time it's used in the old and new testament seems to be about punishment.
Jesus first uses it in reference to Sodom and Gomorrah. which was punished and burned up. (but If you prefer cleaned Ok.)
And in the context in revelation it's used in context with the words torment and for ever
defined as

to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
to question by applying torture
to torture
to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
to be harassed, distressed

of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind

for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
the worlds, universe
period of time, age

Do you believe God wins or loses?
God gets all he wants from his creation. holiness (purity) via love and justice.

You can't decide FIRST if it's true or false THEN try to understand it.
exactly.

Translation techniques used by King James were built from intent to control. The guy in the video, and I tend to agree with his process, refers to the orgin of the text while maintaining context; context - the intend of the author.
then use the 500 other translations, or the Geneva bible before the KJV, or the tyndale bible or the Wycliff bible. the Genva bible was seen as illegal because it DIDN'T emphasis the rule of kings enough. But the question is irrelevant when it come to verses in question here.
You pretend that the KJV was COMPLETELY corrupted because King James was corrupt, sorry, it's just not the case, the translators have been scrutinized and even there NOTES are available for many to see in museums in Europe. AND today we have more and older greek text to use than the KJV translators but there's still Little change of any significant doctrine to be seen in 500 years DMP. it's a solid translation.

So that line you wrote contradicts this: 23 You see, all have sinned, and all their futile attempts to reach God in His glory fail. 24 Yet they (They means 'all) are now saved and set right by His free gift of grace through the redemption available only in Jesus the Anointed.
we've debated the idea of Jesus sacrifice being for All
or
for all but only applying to those who believed, before. But briefly
the new testament is very Clear the blood of Christ applies to those that believe. and that others who "reject the grace of God" are not covered by the sacrifice.
That whosoever believes in him, should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he has given his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world, that he should condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believes in him, is not condemned: but he that believes not, is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the Name of that only begotten Son of God.
Jesus John 3:15-18
1599 Geneva Bible ("ths" removed) (hated and outlawed by Kings BTW)

we can't honestly IGNORE the "but", and the "because" here AND ELSEWHERE.
And assume that it doesn't REALLY apply because it's not "loving" enough for our taste.

So you're saying because I'm writing about what words actually mean, and what the words mean is contrary to your views that God is a loser, you're dismissing the argument.
I'm saying you and this video guy are reading MORE into certain words than the text and context allows. And are IGNORING certain qualifiers and other words that make the case for the doctrine that you don't like... that frankly few "like". but not liking it doesn't mean it's not true.

darin

12-31-2015, 11:16 AM

two facts from all this. #1 Grace means justice doesnt apply. #2 you can choose to mot understand Love but you still benefit from Him

revelarts

12-31-2015, 11:32 AM

two facts from all this. #1 Grace means justice doesnt apply. #2 you can choose to mot understand Love but you still benefit from Him

"#1 Grace means justice doesnt apply." ..to those who believe.

"#2 you can choose to mot understand Love but you still benefit from Him"...
the rain falls on the just and the unjust TODAY, but in the end there are days of final judgment and they aren't for show.

darin

12-31-2015, 01:45 PM

"#1 Grace means justice doesnt apply." ..to those who believe.

..even after their death.

"#2 you can choose to mot understand Love but you still benefit from Him"...
the rain falls on the just and the unjust TODAY, but in the end there are days of final judgment and they aren't for show.

And judgement means eternal love and grace. Yup.

BoogyMan

12-31-2015, 07:44 PM

There have been those who would deny the existence and purpose of Hell almost from the beginning, but the contextual information in the New Testament just doesn't support such a scenario. There most assuredly will be a judgement day and the outcome of that judgement will be an eternity spent in one of only two destination.

John 5:26-29
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Christ himself spoke of God's judgement and the eternal destination of those outside of Christ, and he spoke of this place as a specific prepared place.
Matthew 25:41
41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!

darin

01-01-2016, 03:35 AM

What if your interpretation of what you read is wrong? How will it make you feel?

BoogyMan

01-01-2016, 01:04 PM

You do understand that Koine Greek is a dead language, right? It has not changed at all and the textual meanings of the words are just as when the Greek texts were penned.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8225&stc=1

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8226&stc=1

Gunny

01-01-2016, 01:09 PM

BoogyMan

01-01-2016, 01:20 PM

Hel is Nordic, not Greek.

The original text that is being discussed is Greek.

Gunny

01-01-2016, 01:36 PM

The original text that is being discussed is Greek.

I haven't read that crap since I was 12 years old. :laugh: