2 Turkish Fighter Jets Shoot Down Russian War Plane

[Kathianne]

Warned 10 times in 5 minutes before they attacked. Russia claiming it just 'crashed' according to CNN tv coverage:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/24/turkey-shoots-down-jet-near-border-with-syria


Turkey downs Russian warplane near Syria border
Kareem Shaheen (http://www.theguardian.com/profile/kareem-shaheen) in Beirut and Shaun Walker (http://www.theguardian.com/profile/shaun-walker) in Moscow
<time itemprop="datePublished" datetime="2015-11-24T04:21:50-0500" data-timestamp="1448356910000" class="content__dateline-wpd js-wpd content__dateline-wpd--modified tone-colour" style="color: rgb(0, 86, 137); cursor: pointer; display: inline-block;">Tuesday 24 November 2015 04.21 EST</time>

Nato-member Turkey (http://www.theguardian.com/world/turkey) has shot down a Russian warplane in the first time the alliance and Moscow have come to blows directly over the crisis in Syria.

Ankara and Moscow gave conflicting accounts of the incident, which appears to have occurred in an area near the Turkish-Syrian border straddling Iskenderun and Latakia.


The Turkish military said it scrambled two F-16 fighter jets after a plane penetrated Turkish airspace in the province of Hatay at 9.20am on Tuesday morning, warning it to leave 10 times in five minutes before it was shot down.


<aside class="element element-rich-link element--thumbnail element-rich-link--upgraded" data-component="rich-link" data-link-name="rich-link-1 | 1" style="float: left; margin: 0.3125rem 1.25rem 0.75rem -15rem; clear: both; width: 13.75rem; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'Guardian Text Egyptian Web', Georgia, serif; font-size: medium; line-height: 24px;">Live Russian fighter jet downed near Turkey-Syria border – live updates
Follow live updates after a Russian jet was downed near Turkey’s border with Syria
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</aside>It was unclear if the plane was shot down by the fighter jets or by ground-based defence systems.


Russia’s defence ministry, in a series of tweets (https://twitter.com/mod_russia/status/669081746177138688), confirmed a Russian SU-24 had been shot down, but insisted the plane had never left Syrian airspace.


“At all times, the SU-24 was exclusively over the territory of Syria (http://www.theguardian.com/world/syria),” the defence ministry said. “The SU-24 was at 6000 metres and preliminary information suggests it was brought down by fire from the ground. The circumstances are being investigated.”


The ministry said preliminary information suggested that the pilots managed to successfully eject from the plane. The Turkish network CNN Turk said that one of the pilots had been captured by local Turkmen tribesmen in the area.


The area near where the plane was shot down is the site of ongoing clashes between forces loyal to the embattled Syrian president, Bashar al-Assad, and rebels fighting to overthrow him. Russia (http://www.theguardian.com/world/russia) launched a military intervention in October aimed at protecting the areas in western Syria still under control by the regime after nearly five years of civil war. The northern Latakia countryside has seen repeated aerial assaults by both the Russian and Syrian air forces.

...

[Kathianne]

Couple of questions come to mind:

Was NATO/US advised prior?

Obama desperate for Hollande not to push against sanctions in place on Russia due to Crimea-Hollande heading for meeting with Putin, after meeting with Obama. Guess which one is the strong dog?

[Jeff]

Dang I guess those super duper jets my little Russian buddy keeps posting about, well they may be in the future he means. :laugh:

[NightTrain]

The SU-24 Fencer is an interesting beast... it features a swing-wing like our old F-111, F-14 and B1. Looks like the Russians are down to 11 of those in Syria now. Initially it was able to go over Mach 2 and reach 57,000 feet, but they deleted the variable intakes for weight & maintenance reasons and now it tops out at Mach 1.3 and 36,000 feet.

This is also what the Israelis shot down last year over the Golan Heights... the Syrians have a few of them.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7981&stc=1

[LongTermGuy]

"Today's tragic event will have serious consequences for Russian-Turkish relations," Putin warned."

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/putin(2).jpg

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

"Today's tragic event will have serious consequences for Russian-Turkish relations," Putin warned."

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/putin(2).jpg

Myself, I believe the Turks just ffed up big time. We shall see.
Interesting to see how other leaders act like leaders while the scum obama acts like a craven coward unless its attacking us and weakening our nation!!!!!
By now only morons/simpletons and blinded sheep would not see what the traitorous bastard is IMHO.-Tyr

[Bilgerat]

Myself, I believe the Turks just ffed up big time. We shall see.
Interesting to see how other leaders act like leaders while the scum obama acts like a craven coward unless its attacking us and weakening our nation!!!!!
By now only morons/simpletons and blinded sheep would not see what the traitorous bastard is IMHO.-Tyr

Why does this come to mind?




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5niBipyUi8

[Christie Brinkley]

Turkish terror state will regret this.

[Christie Brinkley]

FSA= Terrorist islamist scum gloat over the dead body of a Russian pilot...

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=7983b3f0aaa0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Kathianne]

Christie, I agree that filming is wrong. Question though, are you Russian, I wonder because I'd assumed you are British.

[Christie Brinkley]

Christie, I agree that filming is wrong. Question though, are you Russian, I wonder because I'd assumed you are British.
I am British... can't I be against the terrorist sponsor Turkey? Can't I condemn the killing of pilots trying to wipe the Islamist scum off the earth? Do I only have to be Russian for that?

[jimnyc]

Good, let them kill one another off. Of course I hope ISIS gets eradicated first...

[Kathianne]

I am British... can't I be against the terrorist sponsor Turkey? Can't I condemn the killing of pilots trying to wipe the Islamist scum off the earth? Do I only have to be Russian for that?
Wasn't implying any of that. It was a question based upon reading many of your posts, just got around to asking.

[jimnyc]

Wasn't implying any of that. It was a question based upon reading many of your posts, just got around to asking.

I think Christie is related to Putin. I've never seen someone defend and support another country before while never even touching their own. We'll never know of course, but I'm betting a Russian living in the UK. Either way, I couldn't give a damn. I just find it funny.

[Christie Brinkley]

I think Christie is related to Putin. I've never seen someone defend and support another country before while never even touching their own. We'll never know of course, but I'm betting a Russian living in the UK. Either way, I couldn't give a damn. I just find it funny.
My family are English parents, grandparents, great grandparents.

[jimnyc]

My family are English parents, grandparents, great grandparents.

I believe you because that's what you say. I've no reason really NOT to believe you - other than your own posts. One would think there would be a "little" support for ones own country, but I've seen odder.

[Christie Brinkley]

I believe you because that's what you say. I've no reason really NOT to believe you - other than your own posts. One would think there would be a "little" support for ones own country, but I've seen odder.
Actually to tell you the truth I am writing this from the FSB HQ in good old commie Moscow under supervision from the grand master himself...:laugh:

[Drummond]

Actually to tell you the truth I am writing this from the FSB HQ in good old commie Moscow under supervision from the grand master himself...:laugh:

Balu will be delighted ...

From reports I've been listening to, there's no question that the plane was shot down. The big question is whether the plane was flying over Turkish or Syrian airspace at the time.

Turkey asserts Russia has violated their airspace, and despite many warnings transmitted to the pilot, continued to. Russia asserts that their plane never 'strayed' into Turkish airspace at all. They also claim they can prove what they say.

In the meantime, the fact that, here, we have a plane from a NATO member shoot down one from Russia, is the first time since the Cold War that this has happened, so on those grounds it constitutes a serious international incident.

[Christie Brinkley]

Balu will be delighted ...

From reports I've been listening to, there's no question that the plane was shot down. The big question is whether the plane was flying over Turkish or Syrian airspace at the time.

Turkey asserts Russia has violated their airspace, and despite many warnings transmitted to the pilot, continued to. Russia asserts that their plane never 'strayed' into Turkish airspace at all. They also claim they can prove what they say.

In the meantime, the fact that, here, we have a plane from a NATO member shoot down one from Russia, is the first time since the Cold War that this has happened, so on those grounds it constitutes a serious international incident.
The area the Turks said the jet flew over is basically a hill... no towns/settlements.

[Drummond]

The area the Turks said the jet flew over is basically a hill... no towns/settlements.

BUT, did the plane violate Turkish airspace, or not ? That's the central issue.

If 'yes', then illegal Russian aggression is involved.

[jimnyc]

Given today's climate, and the worlds knowledge that Russia is trying to eradicate ISIS (mostly), I don't agree, I don't think, that they should have shot down one of their jets - unless it was a threat. And the US defends Turkey. Let's assume they were clearly in Turkish airspace - was it an error, or were they up to something else? We'll have to see.

----

The U.S. military on Tuesday labeled as an “incursion” the Russian fighter jet that was shot down by Turkish aircraft over the Syria-Turkey border.

Army Col. Steve Warren, the top military spokesman in Baghdad, confirmed the Turk’s version of events in saying they repeatedly warned the two Russian SU-24 pilots to back off.

Col. Warren used the word “incursion” to describe the Russian flight, but also said the command was studying radars and other data, such as radio chatter, to make a definite conclusion.

“The incident happened at the border,” Col. Warren said. “These things are not as clean as they are in the movies.”

Russian President Vladimir Putin in recent years has deployed his fighters and bombers close to the air space of NATO countries, such as Turkey and the U.S., as a way to try to rattle the allies.

This is the first time he has paid a price in having one of his jets shot down and perhaps the pilots killed.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/nov/24/pentagon-backs-turkeys-version-accuses-russian-fig/

[Christie Brinkley]

BUT, did the plane violate Turkish airspace, or not ? That's the central issue.

If 'yes', then illegal Russian aggression is involved.
With the Turks claiming they told the Russian jet to turn around 10 times, that is impossible as it would take only 20 seconds to fly over the hill! Unless they said "turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around" trying saying that 10 times in 20 seconds.

[revelarts]

Turkish Gov't are scumbags and .. yes .. CIA and NATO darkside tools.

[fj1200]

Turkish terror state will regret this.

So Turkey is a terror state but Syria is not?

[Drummond]

With the Turks claiming they told the Russian jet to turn around 10 times, that is impossible as it would take only 20 seconds to fly over the hill! Unless they said "turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around" trying saying that 10 times in 20 seconds.

I'm afraid the '10 times in 5 minutes' surely argues against the Russians, not for them. There's no guarantee that the jet flew in a straight line .. it might've been going around in circles, for all we know. Or, it might've been tracing the path of the Turkish border itself. It's course might've exacerbated the Turkish concern at that time ?

Maybe the plane only flew in the direction of Syria for the last few seconds of its 5-minute 'warning' ?

[gabosaurus]

Turkish terror state will regret this.

A supporter of the Russian terror state passing guilt on to another alleged terror state?

Russian is a terror state that openly supports the Syrian terror state. If Putin spent as much time fighting ISIS as he does propping up the Syrian dictatorship, it would cut down terrorism in the world.

[LongTermGuy]

Balu will be delighted ...

From reports I've been listening to, there's no question that the plane was shot down. The big question is whether the plane was flying over Turkish or Syrian airspace at the time.

Turkey asserts Russia has violated their airspace, and despite many warnings transmitted to the pilot, continued to. Russia asserts that their plane never 'strayed' into Turkish airspace at all. They also claim they can prove what they say.

In the meantime, the fact that, here, we have a plane from a NATO member shoot down one from Russia, is the first time since the Cold War that this has happened, so on those grounds it constitutes a serious international incident.

********************************
~"In the meantime, the fact that, here, we have a plane from a NATO member shoot down one from Russia"~

**************************************

`Just making a simple comment here Drummed....But...."Turkey" a NATO Member...Hmmm

*Who the hell helped make Turkey "a muslim country" NATO member? *All The socialists / Liberals from the worthless appeasing...Tolerant UN....Good grief! Muslim country in NATO..Really? Fooocking Joke...!

*....I didn't read the whole thread here dont know if anyone mentioned it...when the Pilots were bailing from the Russian plane they were being shot at..one killed....The Rescue Russian Copter was also shot down...Heard on the Radio the shooters on the ground were screaming

"Allah Akbar"


"Russia’s military general staff is quoted by Russian news agencies as saying that one of the pilots of the Su-24 warplane that was shot down by Turkey was killed by groundfire as he parachuted from his crippled plane.

General staff spokesman Lt. Gen. Sergei Rudskoi, added that rebels in Syria fired on a Russian helicopter that was searching for the two pilots of the Su-24.
The shooting killed one <nobr>crew member (http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates#)</nobr> on the Mi-8 helicopter and forced it to land in neutral territory, he says.
The rest of the crew was evacuated. Rudskoi also said that Russian radar data showed that Turkish warplanes had violated Syrian airspace in the course of shooting down the Russian plane...)When Putin labeled Turkey “accomplices of terrorists,” (http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates#block-56545f05e4b00f67a4bed957) he was hinting at complex relationship which includes links between senior Isis figures and Turkish officials, explains the Guardian’s Martin Chulov (https://twitter.com/martinchulov) in this analysis (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/24/vladimir-putin-turkey-isis-terrorists-warplane-analysis)."
More:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates (http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates)


"The established presence of Islam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) in the region that now constitutes modern Turkey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey) dates back to the latter half of the 11th century, when the Seljuks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seljuk_Empire) started expanding into eastern Anatolia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia). According to religiosity polls, 97.8% of the population identifies as Muslim,[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Turkey#cite_note-KONDA_Research_and_Consultancy-1) and only 2% is non-religious (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-religious)."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Turkey

[aboutime]

I was very happy to hear the news about the SHOOT-DOWN.

And even more happy that PUTIN is finally getting what he believes is somebody else's Fault.

Kinda sounds like Putin is Imitating Obama????

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

FSA= Terrorist islamist scum gloat over the dead body of a Russian pilot...

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=7983b3f0aaa0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

News reported that both Russian pilots ejected safely. The muslims terrorists on the ground shot one while he was coming down in his parachute!!!
I hope that Russia sends in 50,000 ground troops to kill the slimy ISIS bastards...--TYR

[NightTrain]

It's a shame the Russian pilot lost his life. He was a soldier doing as he was ordered & killing terrorists, and that's a good thing in my book.


Hopefully there are a lot more targets identified now as far as where the ground fire came from and it receives massive ordinance from the remaining 11 Fencers.

[LongTermGuy]

News reported that both Russian pilots ejected safely. The muslims terrorists on the ground shot one while he was coming down in his parachute!!!
I hope that Russia sends in 50,000 ground troops to kill the slimy ISIS bastards...--TYR

I didn't know this Tyr....Filthy bastards....

[LongTermGuy]

~ "I hope that Russia sends in 50,000 ground troops to kill the slimy ISIS bastards...--TYR" ~



*And Guess what?.....And nobody in the "Soft" Socialist / Liberal filled Europe (UN) and Socialist / Liberal controlled USA (for now) will have the balls to stop Putin from killing muslim `terrorist` roaches......`What you think`? If Putin did that? Would "They" try to stop him from killing muslim terrorists?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

~ "I hope that Russia sends in 50,000 ground troops to kill the slimy ISIS bastards...--TYR" ~



*And Guess what?.....And nobody in the "Soft" Socialist / Liberal filled Europe (UN) and Socialist / Liberal controlled USA (for now) will have the balls to stop Putin from killing muslim `terrorist` roaches......`What you think`? If Putin did that? Would "They" try to stop him from killing muslim terrorists?

Obama is a muslim/globalist puppet--thus I am not sure how the fig maggot would act.
More than likely he'd do as his masters tell him to do.-Tyr

[Elessar]

With the Turks claiming they told the Russian jet to turn around 10 times, that is impossible as it would take only 20 seconds to fly over the hill! Unless they said "turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around" trying saying that 10 times in 20 seconds.

I say bullshit to that.

As fast as those things can run and turn?

They are not prop-jobs from the 1920's.

[aboutime]

At noon time today, the local news was interrupted by Obama, and the French President news conference.

What I heard that made me angry...again, was Obama more, or less...Scolding America, and nearly blaming all of us for what is taking place around the world.
But he was his standard, old, stupid self, with little courage from a WUSS, to commit any Americans to fighting ISIS...or what he happily calls ISIL.

Of course. Nobody sitting there in that room had the BALLS to ask Obama if he cleared his LIES with the Muslim Brotherhood members of the White House staff.

And...anyone who denies Obama has connections to the Muslim Brotherhood, and supports Islamic Terrorists....probably will instantly call "MY WORDS HERE"....lies.

Which, in turn will prove where your allegiance lies in your hatred for America.

[LongTermGuy]

At noon time today, the local news was interrupted by Obama, and the French President news conference.

What I heard that made me angry...again, was Obama more, or less...Scolding America, and nearly blaming all of us for what is taking place around the world.
But he was his standard, old, stupid self, with little courage from a WUSS, to commit any Americans to fighting ISIS...or what he happily calls ISIL.

Of course. Nobody sitting there in that room had the BALLS to ask Obama if he cleared his LIES with the Muslim Brotherhood members of the White House staff.

And...anyone who denies Obama has connections to the Muslim Brotherhood, and supports Islamic Terrorists....probably will instantly call "MY WORDS HERE"....lies.

Which, in turn will prove where your allegiance lies in your hatred for America.

*****************************************
Video and text:
".....And here is a translation of Ms. Gebali's key comments from her recent appearance on Egyptian television:
(Tahani): "...all these countries who are mobilizing the international community against Egypt are accused with

<nobr style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">documents (http://blogs.cbn.com/globallane/archive/2013/08/23/obamas-muslim-brotherhood-connection.aspx#)</nobr>and evidence from the Egyptian national security agencies, and it has to be known now. It is time to expose

the playing cards."

"We have the proof about which countries spent money on this international organization (Muslim Brotherhood). where is

Germany, England and France in this and where is the U.S.A.? What has been spent on the organization by Arabia in order to seize power?"

**"What is going on with the investments by the international organization? What about the brother of President Obama, I

mean, we are offering the American people a piece of information. His African half-brother is one of the architects of the

investments of the international organization of the Muslim Brotherhood. "

(The host): One second please. A revelation for the American people!! The half-brother of Obama in Africa??

(Tahani):Yes, he is one of the architects of the major investments of the international organization of the Muslim

Brotherhood.

***"If necessary, we have to alert our people who love peace. Peace loving people in the world don't support their administrations or presidents or their foreign minister or the government sponsoring terrorism and planting it in other countries and paying for it with their money.

That is why (the Western countries)don’t want to put the leaders of the organization (The Muslim brotherhood) on trial."
"The pressure is to keep the organization in the political scene, without trial, and let them go."
... posted on Friday, August 23, 2013 6:05 PM"

http://blogs.cbn.com/globallane/archive/2013/08/23/obamas-muslim-brotherhood-connection.aspx

`Where are the Muslim Brotherhood and the Obama Administration Taking America?`


http://www.standupamericaus.org/politics-washington-dc/obama-the-muslim-brotherhood-and-islam-what-is-the-connection/

[LongTermGuy]

"Additional links regarding the downing of Russian Su-24"

http://thesaker.is/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/colone-cassad-864x400_c.jpg
Saker is attending his mother funeral at this time. Scott and myself (webmaster) have been tasked with providing support

during this time. Early this morning an open thread post was open so that the Saker community could discuss the

downing of the SU-24. Scott followed by posting a SitRep. While we await Saker’s analysis I found the following links

quite interesting.

This article provide a military tactical explanation for the actions of Turkey and NATO.
http://journal-neo.org/2015/11/24/russian-warplane-down-natos-act-of-war/

Historical explanation of <nobr style="box-sizing: border-box;">conflict (http://thesaker.is/additional-links-regarding-the-downing-of-russian-su-24/#)</nobr> between Russia and Turkey
http://fortruss.blogspot.com/2015/11/the-motive-how-russias-enemies-benefit.html

**This site is in Russian. I suggest using translate.google.com or translate.yandex.com. Its a moment by moment account of downing plus information on the power outage in Crimea.

http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/ (http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/)

Regards
Webmaster

``Russia has just isolated (split off) Turkey from NATO, a strigic blow to the West...on the other hand it is now clearTurkey is not Europe nor "Western" nor ever will be!! "....As in the game of chess, a player often seeks to provoke their opponent into a series of moves. The more emotional their opponent becomes, the easier it is to control the game as it unfolds. Likewise in geopolitics and war, emotions can get one killed, or, be channeled by reason and superior strategic thinking into a plan that satisfies short-term requirements but serves long-term objectives. Russia has proven time and time again that it is capable of striking this balance and now, more than ever, it must prove so again...."`

http://m.journal-neo.org/2015/11/24/russian-warplane-down-natos-act-of-war/

[LongTermGuy]

"Additional links regarding the downing of Russian Su-24"

http://thesaker.is/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/colone-cassad-864x400_c.jpg
Saker is attending his mother funeral at this time. Scott and myself (webmaster) have been tasked with providing support

during this time. Early this morning an open thread post was open so that the Saker community could discuss the

downing of the SU-24. Scott followed by posting a SitRep. While we await Saker’s analysis I found the following links

quite interesting.

This article provide a military tactical explanation for the actions of Turkey and NATO.
http://journal-neo.org/2015/11/24/russian-warplane-down-natos-act-of-war/

Historical explanation of <nobr style="box-sizing: border-box;">conflict (http://thesaker.is/additional-links-regarding-the-downing-of-russian-su-24/#)</nobr> between Russia and Turkey
http://fortruss.blogspot.com/2015/11/the-motive-how-russias-enemies-benefit.html

**This site is in Russian. I suggest using translate.google.com or translate.yandex.com. Its a moment by moment account of downing plus information on the power outage in Crimea.

http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/ (http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/)

Regards
Webmaster

``Russia has just isolated (split off) Turkey from NATO, a strigic blow to the West...on the other hand it is now clearTurkey is not Europe nor "Western" nor ever will be!! "....As in the game of chess, a player often seeks to provoke their opponent into a series of moves. The more emotional their opponent becomes, the easier it is to control the game as it unfolds. Likewise in geopolitics and war, emotions can get one killed, or, be channeled by reason and superior strategic thinking into a plan that satisfies short-term requirements but serves long-term objectives. Russia has proven time and time again that it is capable of striking this balance and now, more than ever, it must prove so again...."`

http://m.journal-neo.org/2015/11/24/russian-warplane-down-natos-act-of-war/



Addition just made...^^^

[LongTermGuy]

Alright...One last thing....:laugh:If one is to lazy to open up last link above...let me help...

Here it is ...good "Interesting read"


"Despite blatant provocation, Russia must <nobr style="box-sizing: border-box;">continue (http://m.journal-neo.org/2015/11/24/russian-warplane-down-natos-act-of-war/#)</nobr> toward the finish

line. With cameras rolling, <nobr style="box-sizing: border-box;">Turkey (http://m.journal-neo.org/2015/11/24/russian-warplane-down-natos-act-of-war/#)</nobr> has claimed it has shot down a Russian

Sukhoi Su-24 attack aircraft. The New York Times in its <nobr style="box-sizing: border-box;">article (http://m.journal-neo.org/2015/11/24/russian-warplane-down-natos-act-of-war/#)</nobr>, “Turkey Shoots

Down Russian Warplane Near Syria Border (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/25/world/europe/turkey-syria-russia-military-plane.html?_r=0),” reports that:
"Turkish fighter jets on patrol near the Syrian border shot down a Russian warplane on Tuesday after it violated Turkey’s airspace, a long-feared escalation that could further strain relations between Russia and the West.The escalation is “long feared” not because the Turkish government actually

fears that Russian warplanes crossing their border pose a threat to it or its

people, but because Russia has ended NATO’s proxy war, a proxy war

spearheaded in part by Turkey itself, amid Russia’s joint military operations

with Syria against the self-proclaimed “Islamic State” (ISIS) and supporting

terrorist factions.***In addition to having a camera rolling as the plane went down in flames,

terrorists operating in region had allegedly surrounded the dead pilot shortly

after the incident according to Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/us-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-idUSKBN0TD0IR20151124#kmA7eWaPdjoD1jqP.97).While Turkey maintains that it was only reacting in self-defense (or perhaps in

defense of terrorists it is sponsoring) – it was against a nation’s planes that it

knew had no intention of attacking its territory – and what looks like instead

was Turkey targeting planes operating along reoccurring routes and shooting

one down once the pieces were in place to maximize the event politically.
Russia Continues Toward the <nobr style="box-sizing: border-box;">Finish (http://m.journal-neo.org/2015/11/24/russian-warplane-down-natos-act-of-war/#)</nobr> Line In recent weeks with Russian air support, Syrian troops have retaken large

swaths of territory from ISIS, Al Qaeda, and other terrorist fighters. The Syrian

Arab Army (SAA) has even begun approaching the Euphrates River east of

Aleppo, which would effectively cut off ISIS from its supply lines leading out of

Turkish territory.From there, Syrian troops would move north, into the very “safe zone” the US and its Turkish partners have long-sought but have so far failed to establish within Syria’s borders. This “safe zone” includes a region of northern Syrian stretching from Jarabulus near the west bank of the Euphrates to Afrin and Ad Dana approximately 90-100 kilometers west.Once Syrian troops retake this territory, the prospect of the West ever making an incursion into Syria, holding territory, or compromising Syria’s territorial integrity would be lost forever. Western ambitions toward regime change in Damascus would be indefinitely suspended.The endgame is at hand, and only the most desperate measures can hope to prevent Russia and Syria from finally securing Syria’s borders. Turkey’s provocation is just such a measure.Russia’s time, place, and <nobr style="box-sizing: border-box;">method (http://m.journal-neo.org/2015/11/24/russian-warplane-down-natos-act-of-war/#)</nobr> of retaliating against Turkey is something only the Kremlin will know. But Russia’s actions upon the international stage have been so far thoroughly thought out, allowing Moscow to outmaneuver the West at every juncture and in the wake of every Western provocation.For Turkey’s government – one that has been consistent only in its constant failure regarding its proxy war against its neighbor Syria, who has been caught planning false flag provocations to trigger wider and more direct war in Syria, and whose government is now exposed and widely known to be directly feeding, not fighting ISIS – the prospect of Russian retaliation against it, either directly or indirectly, and in whatever form will leave it increasingly isolated.Until then, Russia’s best bet is to simply continue winning the war. Taking the Jarabulus-Afrin corridor and fortifying it against NATO incursions while cutting off ISIS and other terrorist factions deeper within Syria would be perhaps the worst of all possible retaliations. With Syria secured, an alternative arc of influence will exist within the Middle East, one that will inevitably work against Saudi and other Persian Gulf regimes’ efforts in Yemen, and in a wider sense, begin the irreversible eviction of Western hegemony from the region.The West, already being pushed out of Asia by China, will suffer immeasurably as the world dismantles its unipolar international order, region by region.As in the game of chess, a player often seeks to provoke their opponent into a series of moves. The more emotional their opponent becomes, the easier it is to control the game as it unfolds. Likewise in geopolitics and war, emotions can get one killed, or, be channeled by reason and superior strategic thinking into a plan that satisfies short-term <nobr style="box-sizing: border-box;">requirements (http://m.journal-neo.org/2015/11/24/russian-warplane-down-natos-act-of-war/#)</nobr> but serves long-term objectives. Russia has proven time and time again that it is capable of striking this balance and now, more than ever, it must prove so again.- See more at: http://m.journal-neo.org/2015/11/24/russian-warplane-down-natos-act-of-war/#sthash.c9NxTTo7.dpuf

[jimnyc]

With the Turks claiming they told the Russian jet to turn around 10 times, that is impossible as it would take only 20 seconds to fly over the hill! Unless they said "turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around turn around" trying saying that 10 times in 20 seconds.

The claim is that they warned them 10 times as they approached and briefly went through Turkish airspace. No one stated they did so in 20 seconds.

[Christie Brinkley]

The claim is that they warned them 10 times as they approached and briefly went through Turkish airspace. No one stated they did so in 20 seconds.
17 seconds flying over a Turkish hill, dirt road and a little stream! (if you believe the official story that is;))...

[jimnyc]

17 seconds flying over a Turkish hill, dirt road and a little stream! (if you believe the official story that is;))...

Weird how one side is always wrong to you, and the other side is always believable though. The report is that they warned them for quite a few MINUTES as they approached, and then went through the airspace briefly, and then shot at it once it was back in Syrian airspace. No doubt Turkey is wrong, IMO - but it was NOT 10 warnings in 20 seconds as you imply.

[Christie Brinkley]

Weird how one side is always wrong to you, and the other side is always believable though. The report is that they warned them for quite a few MINUTES as they approached, and then went through the airspace briefly, and then shot at it once it was back in Syrian airspace. No doubt Turkey is wrong, IMO - but it was NOT 10 warnings in 20 seconds as you imply.
Okay Jimmy, if you believe the Islamist government that funds ISIS is telling the truth then fine...:laugh:

[jimnyc]

Okay Jimmy, if you believe the Islamist government that funds ISIS is telling the truth then fine...:laugh:

Ummm, no. This information is from the USA, based on heat signatures and such. Not to mention, I'm confident that whatever was stated across communications will have been heard. The US originally stated that Russia was in Turkey, then they reversed course when they reviewed the heat signature and stated they were in fact in Syrian airspace.

[Drummond]

********************************
~"In the meantime, the fact that, here, we have a plane from a NATO member shoot down one from Russia"~

**************************************

`Just making a simple comment here Drummed....But...."Turkey" a NATO Member...Hmmm

*Who the hell helped make Turkey "a muslim country" NATO member? *All The socialists / Liberals from the worthless appeasing...Tolerant UN....Good grief! Muslim country in NATO..Really? Fooocking Joke...!

*....I didn't read the whole thread here dont know if anyone mentioned it...when the Pilots were bailing from the Russian plane they were being shot at..one killed....The Rescue Russian Copter was also shot down...Heard on the Radio the shooters on the ground were screaming

"Allah Akbar"


"Russia’s military general staff is quoted by Russian news agencies as saying that one of the pilots of the Su-24 warplane that was shot down by Turkey was killed by groundfire as he parachuted from his crippled plane.

General staff spokesman Lt. Gen. Sergei Rudskoi, added that rebels in Syria fired on a Russian helicopter that was searching for the two pilots of the Su-24.
The shooting killed one <nobr>crew member (http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates#)</nobr> on the Mi-8 helicopter and forced it to land in neutral territory, he says.
The rest of the crew was evacuated. Rudskoi also said that Russian radar data showed that Turkish warplanes had violated Syrian airspace in the course of shooting down the Russian plane...)When Putin labeled Turkey “accomplices of terrorists,” (http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates#block-56545f05e4b00f67a4bed957) he was hinting at complex relationship which includes links between senior Isis figures and Turkish officials, explains the Guardian’s Martin Chulov (https://twitter.com/martinchulov) in this analysis (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/24/vladimir-putin-turkey-isis-terrorists-warplane-analysis)."
More:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates (http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates)


"The established presence of Islam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) in the region that now constitutes modern Turkey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey) dates back to the latter half of the 11th century, when the Seljuks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seljuk_Empire) started expanding into eastern Anatolia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia). According to religiosity polls, 97.8% of the population identifies as Muslim,[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Turkey#cite_note-KONDA_Research_and_Consultancy-1) and only 2% is non-religious (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-religious)."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Turkey



I've every sympathy with the sentiments you express. Ideally, surely, Turkey would not be a NATO member. Although, strategically speaking, consideration of where it's located gives NATO a tactical advantage .. so in just those terms, its being a member makes a form of sense.

But whether Muslims are involved or not, there's an important principle involved here. Turkey, 'lamentably' or not, IS A MEMBER OF NATO. What we have here is an incursion, one not authorised by any NATO official or authority, by a Russian plane into NATO territory - certainly NOT a legitimate action !

If unchallenged this time around, how many future territorial violations would such a lack of challenge have set a precedent for ??

Putin's Russia is a belligerent power. Whether or not what they're doing in (or over) Syria is justified, they are doing it FOR THEIR reasons, not for ours. And .. perhaps one reason Putin had for bothering was to test the responsiveness of NATO to a territorial challenge made against it ?

NATO's role has - 'qualitatively' ? - changed since the Cold War. Putin might've had his reason(s) for trying to find out if a spirit of laxness was dominating present-day NATO. I hope the response that the world has actually seen will have proved properly instructive for Russia, and Putin's future ambitions, whatever they may precisely be !

[Drummond]

17 seconds flying over a Turkish hill, dirt road and a little stream! (if you believe the official story that is;))...

17 seconds flying within NATO airspace is 17 seconds too long.

Russia is a belligerent power, as history, even recent history, teaches us. Russia remains an opposing force against NATO and its members. And, it was a Russian jet which violated NATO airspace .. without cause or permission granted to it for the action.

Christie, it's a simple fact that if you defend the Russian jet's presence over Turkey for even a single second, you are signalling approval of the violation of NATO airspace. Either Russia can consider itself able to do so when it wishes to, or NOT.

Think on that.

[Balu]

Russia banned import of poultry meat from Turkey.
All tour operators in Russia, have stopped selling tours to Turkey have stopped selling tours to Turkey.
Minister Lavrov canceled his visit to Turkey.
Russia deployed S-400 complex in Syria.
Cruiser Moscow is located in Lattakia.Three hours later, after Turkey was hit by a SU-24 Russian effected intense bombardment of the area of its fall. None of the Turkish fighter did not take off.
All Russian bombers will be escorted by fighters and the area of their missions is covered by Air Defense means and means of electronic countermeasures.
Crimea banned all business relations with Turkey.

(...to be continued)

[Balu]

Russia bombards Syrian rebels near site of downed Russian jetYAYLADAGI, Turkey
















http://s2.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20151125&t=2&i=1097606820&w=644&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&sq=&r=LYNXMPEBAO0NI


A Sukhoi Su-24 fighter jet taxis on tarmac at the Hmeymim air base near Latakia, Syria, in this file handout photograph released by Russia's Defence Ministry November 11, 2015.
Reuters/Ministry of Defence of the Russian Federation/Handout via Reuters



YAYLADAGI, Turkey Russian forces launched a heavy bombardment against insurgent-held areas in Syria's Latakia province on Wednesday, near where a Russian warplane had been shot down by Turkey the day before, rebels and a monitoring group said.
At least 12 air strikes hit Latakia's northern countryside as pro-government forces clashed with fighters from al Qaeda's Nusra Front and Turkmen insurgents in the Jabal Akrad and Jabal Turkman areas, the British-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said.
A Turkmen commander said missiles fired from Russian warships in the Mediterranean were also hitting the area, as well as heavy artillery shelling.
Hassan Haj Ali, the head of Liwa Suqour al-Jabal, a rebel group operating in western Syria, also said there were fierce battles in the area, with Russian aircraft supporting pro-government forces.
Turkey on Tuesday shot down a Russian warplane that it said had entered Turkish airspace, something denied by Moscow.
It crashed in the Jabal Turkman area, the Observatory said.
Both pilots bailed out. The Russian Defence Ministry said one had been shot dead from the ground as he parachuted down, but that one was safe and had returned to Russia's air base in western Syria.
However, a deputy commander of rebel Turkmen forces in Syria said on Tuesday that his men had shot both pilots dead as they parachuted down.
The incident was one of the most serious publicly acknowledged clashes for half a century between Russia and a NATO member country.
A Turkish military source said Turkish troops on the border were on alert on Wednesday after the bombardment began.
Russia began intervening in the Syrian civil war on Sept. 30 in support of President Bashar al-Assad, whose forces are fighting insurgents backed by regional powers including Turkey.
The Russian air raids, launched ostensibly to target Islamic State, have mostly hit other, foreign-backed rebel groups, the United States says.
There have been strikes for several weeks in Latakia province, whose capital of the same name is Assad's coastal stronghold, but the Observatory said Wednesday's bombardments were particularly heavy.
(Reporting by Seyhmus Cakan in Yayladagi and John Davison in Beirut; Editing by Kevin Liffey (http://blogs.reuters.com/search/journalist.php?edition=us&n=kevin.liffey&))





http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/25/us-mideast-crisis-syria-latakia-idUSKBN0TE1FN20151125#3StVS3BEv2oBDASI.97

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Alright...One last thing....:laugh:If one is to lazy to open up last link above...let me help...

Here it is ...good "Interesting read"


"Despite blatant provocation, Russia must <nobr style="box-sizing: border-box;">continue (http://m.journal-neo.org/2015/11/24/russian-warplane-down-natos-act-of-war/#)</nobr> toward the finish

line. With cameras rolling, <nobr style="box-sizing: border-box;">Turkey (http://m.journal-neo.org/2015/11/24/russian-warplane-down-natos-act-of-war/#)</nobr> has claimed it has shot down a Russian

Sukhoi Su-24 attack aircraft. The New York Times in its <nobr style="box-sizing: border-box;">article (http://m.journal-neo.org/2015/11/24/russian-warplane-down-natos-act-of-war/#)</nobr>, “Turkey Shoots

Down Russian Warplane Near Syria Border (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/25/world/europe/turkey-syria-russia-military-plane.html?_r=0),” reports that:
"Turkish fighter jets on patrol near the Syrian border shot down a Russian warplane on Tuesday after it violated Turkey’s airspace, a long-feared escalation that could further strain relations between Russia and the West.The escalation is “long feared” not because the Turkish government actually

fears that Russian warplanes crossing their border pose a threat to it or its

people, but because Russia has ended NATO’s proxy war, a proxy war

spearheaded in part by Turkey itself, amid Russia’s joint military operations

with Syria against the self-proclaimed “Islamic State” (ISIS) and supporting

terrorist factions.***In addition to having a camera rolling as the plane went down in flames,

terrorists operating in region had allegedly surrounded the dead pilot shortly

after the incident according to Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/us-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-idUSKBN0TD0IR20151124#kmA7eWaPdjoD1jqP.97).While Turkey maintains that it was only reacting in self-defense (or perhaps in

defense of terrorists it is sponsoring) – it was against a nation’s planes that it

knew had no intention of attacking its territory – and what looks like instead

was Turkey targeting planes operating along reoccurring routes and shooting

one down once the pieces were in place to maximize the event politically.
Russia Continues Toward the <nobr style="box-sizing: border-box;">Finish (http://m.journal-neo.org/2015/11/24/russian-warplane-down-natos-act-of-war/#)</nobr> Line In recent weeks with Russian air support, Syrian troops have retaken large

swaths of territory from ISIS, Al Qaeda, and other terrorist fighters. The Syrian

Arab Army (SAA) has even begun approaching the Euphrates River east of

Aleppo, which would effectively cut off ISIS from its supply lines leading out of

Turkish territory.From there, Syrian troops would move north, into the very “safe zone” the US and its Turkish partners have long-sought but have so far failed to establish within Syria’s borders. This “safe zone” includes a region of northern Syrian stretching from Jarabulus near the west bank of the Euphrates to Afrin and Ad Dana approximately 90-100 kilometers west.Once Syrian troops retake this territory, the prospect of the West ever making an incursion into Syria, holding territory, or compromising Syria’s territorial integrity would be lost forever. Western ambitions toward regime change in Damascus would be indefinitely suspended.The endgame is at hand, and only the most desperate measures can hope to prevent Russia and Syria from finally securing Syria’s borders. Turkey’s provocation is just such a measure.Russia’s time, place, and <nobr style="box-sizing: border-box;">method (http://m.journal-neo.org/2015/11/24/russian-warplane-down-natos-act-of-war/#)</nobr> of retaliating against Turkey is something only the Kremlin will know. But Russia’s actions upon the international stage have been so far thoroughly thought out, allowing Moscow to outmaneuver the West at every juncture and in the wake of every Western provocation.For Turkey’s government – one that has been consistent only in its constant failure regarding its proxy war against its neighbor Syria, who has been caught planning false flag provocations to trigger wider and more direct war in Syria, and whose government is now exposed and widely known to be directly feeding, not fighting ISIS – the prospect of Russian retaliation against it, either directly or indirectly, and in whatever form will leave it increasingly isolated.Until then, Russia’s best bet is to simply continue winning the war. Taking the Jarabulus-Afrin corridor and fortifying it against NATO incursions while cutting off ISIS and other terrorist factions deeper within Syria would be perhaps the worst of all possible retaliations. With Syria secured, an alternative arc of influence will exist within the Middle East, one that will inevitably work against Saudi and other Persian Gulf regimes’ efforts in Yemen, and in a wider sense, begin the irreversible eviction of Western hegemony from the region.The West, already being pushed out of Asia by China, will suffer immeasurably as the world dismantles its unipolar international order, region by region.As in the game of chess, a player often seeks to provoke their opponent into a series of moves. The more emotional their opponent becomes, the easier it is to control the game as it unfolds. Likewise in geopolitics and war, emotions can get one killed, or, be channeled by reason and superior strategic thinking into a plan that satisfies short-term <nobr style="box-sizing: border-box;">requirements (http://m.journal-neo.org/2015/11/24/russian-warplane-down-natos-act-of-war/#)</nobr> but serves long-term objectives. Russia has proven time and time again that it is capable of striking this balance and now, more than ever, it must prove so again.- See more at: http://m.journal-neo.org/2015/11/24/russian-warplane-down-natos-act-of-war/#sthash.c9NxTTo7.dpuf

Hell, I already knew why Turkey shot that Russian fighter down! The Russians are killing massive numbers of muslim jihadist fighters in Syria and Turkey is a muslim nation--add to that that the obama likely bribed Turkey to do that IMHO.
And this image that the obama is a bumbling fool is deliberately created to keep the knowledge that he is carry out a globalist agenda from being widely known to the American public.
All this harm to our nation is thus chalked up as bumbling mistakes! When its really a globalist agenda fed the traitor obama by his top handler, George Soros.
I was discussing this exact thing with Gaffer(MAN DO I MISS HIM, MY FRIEND) about 7 years ago.
He too, saw far deeper than most...-Tyr

[Balu]

<header class="entry-header">The navigator shot down the Su-24 pledged to avenge the dead commander

</header> http://rushincrash.com/postimages/25%20Nov%202015/The%20navigator%20shot%20down%20the%20Su-24%20pledged%20to%20avenge%20the%20dead%20commande r/original/The%20navigator%20shot%20down%20the%20Su-24%20pledged%20to%20avenge%20the%20dead%20commande r.jpg





Captain Air Space Forces (VKS) Russia Konstantin Murahtin survived the attack F-16 fighters to the Russian Air Force of Turkey bomber Su-24 in Syria said in an interview with television channel REN TV which intends to “pay the favor” of the deceased commander.
Skipper said that after leaving the hospital is going to ask the commanders to leave it at the air base in the Syrian province Hmeymim Latakia. The pilot said he wanted to continue to perform tasks against terrorists. “I have to give the favor of the commander” – added Murahtin.
According to him the Turkish military did not communicate with his Su-24. “Turks nothing and warned not communicate” – said the Russian pilot. Murahtin also said that the rocket itself “air-air” issued by the Turkish F-16s and struck the bomber at an altitude of six thousand meters he has not seen.
Pilot stressed that the crew of the Su-24 knew the area where the disaster occurred “inside out” reports RIA Novosti .
See also: Turkey has strengthened patrolling the Syrian border (http://rushincrash.com/forces/army-force-structures/turkey-has-strengthened-patrolling-the-syrian-border/).

[Drummond]

Russia banned import of poultry meat from Turkey.
All tour operators in Russia, have stopped selling tours to Turkey have stopped selling tours to Turkey.
Minister Lavrov canceled his visit to Turkey.
Russia deployed S-400 complex in Syria.
Cruiser Moscow is located in Lattakia.Three hours later, after Turkey was hit by a SU-24 Russian effected intense bombardment of the area of its fall. None of the Turkish fighter did not take off.
All Russian bombers will be escorted by fighters and the area of their missions is covered by Air Defense means and means of electronic countermeasures.
Crimea banned all business relations with Turkey.

(...to be continued)

Lesson apparently intended: allow Russian jets to violate NATO airspace, just as they choose, otherwise, 'punishments' must follow .. ??

Proof that Russia is a belligerent power, if indeed we needed it .. !!!

[Drummond]

Hell, I already knew why Turkey shot that Russian fighter down! The Russians are killing massive numbers of muslim jihadist fighters in Syria and Turkey is a muslim nation--add to that that the obama likely bribed Turkey to do that IMHO.
And this image that the obama is a bumbling fool is deliberately created to keep the knowledge that he is carry out a globalist agenda from being widely known to the American public.
All this harm to our nation is thus chalked up as bumbling mistakes! When its really a globalist agenda fed the traitor obama by his top handler, George Soros.
I was discussing this exact thing with Gaffer(MAN DO I MISS HIM, MY FRIEND) about 7 years ago.
He too, saw far deeper than most...-Tyr

Whether or not Turkey's motives are as you describe them ... there can surely be NO exceptions to the understanding that Russia does NOT violate NATO airspace as it sees fit !! Start accepting that, set the precedent, and where do you think it'll end ?

Russian jets violate UK airspace fairly regularly these days (yes, it's been on the increase, suggestive of Putin's increasing arrogance). We make sure they leave as soon as their presence is detected .. we escort them away if needed.

Do you disagree with that policy ? Should we tolerate their presence instead ?

[Drummond]

<header class="entry-header">The navigator shot down the Su-24 pledged to avenge the dead commander



</header> http://rushincrash.com/postimages/25%20Nov%202015/The%20navigator%20shot%20down%20the%20Su-24%20pledged%20to%20avenge%20the%20dead%20commande r/original/The%20navigator%20shot%20down%20the%20Su-24%20pledged%20to%20avenge%20the%20dead%20commande r.jpg





Captain Air Space Forces (VKS) Russia Konstantin Murahtin survived the attack F-16 fighters to the Russian Air Force of Turkey bomber Su-24 in Syria said in an interview with television channel REN TV which intends to “pay the favor” of the deceased commander.
Skipper said that after leaving the hospital is going to ask the commanders to leave it at the air base in the Syrian province Hmeymim Latakia. The pilot said he wanted to continue to perform tasks against terrorists. “I have to give the favor of the commander” – added Murahtin.
According to him the Turkish military did not communicate with his Su-24. “Turks nothing and warned not communicate” – said the Russian pilot. Murahtin also said that the rocket itself “air-air” issued by the Turkish F-16s and struck the bomber at an altitude of six thousand meters he has not seen.
Pilot stressed that the crew of the Su-24 knew the area where the disaster occurred “inside out” reports RIA Novosti .
See also: Turkey has strengthened patrolling the Syrian border (http://rushincrash.com/forces/army-force-structures/turkey-has-strengthened-patrolling-the-syrian-border/).

And did the navigator you refer to accept that his plane, flying over NATO airspace minus any prior agreement that it be permitted, was IN THE WRONG ?

[Balu]

And did the navigator you refer to accept that his plane, flying over NATO airspace minus any prior agreement that it be permitted, was IN THE WRONG ?
The navigator of the bomber confirmed the announcement of our Ministry of Defense that their bomber HAD NOT crossed the Syrian-Turkish border. They flew by their usual route, as the crew fulfilled the same mission over this very are not for the first time.
For the rest listen to YOUR specialist for their comments if you do not want you propaganda to put the spaghetti over your ears.

[Balu]

The navigator of the bomber confirmed the announcement of our Ministry of Defense that their bomber HAD NOT crossed the Syrian-Turkish border. They flew by their usual route, as the crew fulfilled the same mission over this very are not for the first time.
For the rest listen to YOUR specialist for their comments if you do not want you propaganda to put the spaghetti over your ears.

MOSCOW, November 25. /TASS/.

A rescued pilot navigator of the Russian Su-24 bomber aircraft, downed on Tuesday by a Turkish fighter jet on the border with Syria, said there was not a single possibility that his plane had violated the airspace of Turkey.

"No, this is out of the question even for a one-second possibility, as we were at the altitude of 6,000 meters and the weather was clear," the pilot said in interview with Russia’s Rossiya-1 television channel.
Read also


What’s behind Turkey’s provocative decision to shoot down Russian bomber? (http://tass.ru/en/opinions/839292)
Eighteen Turkish fighter jets patrolled border with Syria — Turkey's General Staff (http://tass.ru/en/world/839284)
Kremlin: Russian S-400 missile systems will be returned home after Syria operation is over (http://tass.ru/en/defense/839268)
Russia planning no war with Turkey — FM (http://tass.ru/en/politics/839164)
No contacts between Putin, Erdogan after Su-24 downing — Kremlin (http://tass.ru/en/politics/839135)



"All our mission flight was in my personal full control until the explosion of the missile," he said.

"There was not even a slightest threat of getting into Turkey," the pilot added.
According to the man, there were no warnings from Turkey.
"In fact there were no warnings either via radio communication or optically. There were no contacts at all. That’s why we flew heading combat course as per normal," he said.
"If they wanted to warn us they could have come out by flying on parallel courses. But this did not happen. And the missile came to our jet’ tail all of a sudden… We didn’t even see it to have time for missile evasive maneuver," the navigator said.
The navigator pilot said he will continue his tour of duty in Syria and will remain assigned to the Hmeymim airbase.
"I’m looking forward to the moment I’ll be discharged (from hospital) because I’ll step back into the ranks then," Captain Konstantin Murakhtin, the navigator, told Rossiya One TV channel on Wednesday.
"I’ll ask the commanders for permission to stay on this airbase," he said. "I have a debt to pay off on the part of my commander [who was shot dead by militants from the ground after catapulting from the jets - TASS]."
The Russian Su-24M all-weather bomber aircraft (NATO reporting name Fencer) was on anti-terrorism mission in Syria on Tuesday morning, when it was shot down by a Turkish F-16 fighter jet. Ankara claims it downed the Russian warplane after it had violated Turkey’s airspace, while the Russian Defense Ministry says the bomber was in the airspace over Syria at the time of the attack.

[Drummond]

The navigator of the bomber confirmed the announcement of our Ministry of Defense that their bomber HAD NOT crossed the Syrian-Turkish border. They flew by their usual route, as the crew fulfilled the same mission over this very are not for the first time.
For the rest listen to YOUR specialist for their comments if you do not want you propaganda to put the spaghetti over your ears.

A great end comment, there, Balu ....

Our media reports that Putin not only says that the jet didn't stray into Turkish airspace, but that he can provide proof of it. So, OK, where IS that proof ? All I've seen are assertions, and nothing more.

But Balu, it isn't as though incursions by your military don't happen. They are known to happen, and are known to have increased enormously in frequency in recent times. Balu, will you just dismiss the following as 'Western propaganda', or, will you accept it happens, and that it should NOT be .. ?

See ....

http://www.euronews.com/2015/01/30/only-russia-dangerously-probes-british-airspace-says-source/


The British Royal Air Force (RAF) has intercepted Russian fighter jets as they approached UK air space for the second time this week.

On Friday RAF Typhoon fighters were scrambled from Lossiemouth in Scotland to escort Russian aircraft away from Britain’s skies.

A day earlier, the UK summoned Russia’s ambassador to explain why two Russian “Bear” long-range bombers had flown over the English channel on Wednesday, forcing British authorities to reroute civil aircraft.

Russian aircraft have previously flown close to Scotland, so Friday’s incident is not unusual, but flying so close to the south coast on Wednesday marked “a significant escalation” in the Russian manoeuvers, a British government source told Reuters.

In December 2014, the Times of India reported that a Russian military aircraft turned off its transponders to make it invisible to commercial radar, and nearly collided with a passenger jet over Sweden.

Swedish fighter jets later identified the mystery aircraft as a Russian intelligence plane.

Last August, Finland said its fighter jets were ready to intercept foreign aircraft after Russian jets repeatedly violated its airspace.

During 2014 more than 100 Russian aircraft were intercepted over the North Sea, the Baltic Sea and the Atlantic Ocean by Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Turkey as well as NATO-allied Portuguese and German fighters from the Baltic Air Policing Mission.

NATO described an October 2014 incident “in which a Russian IL-20 (intelligence collection aircraft) took off from Kaliningrad and headed over the Baltic Sea towards Denmark.

“The Russian aircraft was first intercepted by Danish F-16’s and as the IL-20 headed further north it was intercepted by fighters from Sweden. The Russian aircraft headed south again and Portuguese F-16’s were scrambled. At 12.53 p.m. CET the IL-20 approached Estonian airspace from the northeast. The Russian aircraft entered Estonian airspace near the island of Saaremaa for a period of less than one minute, which represented an incursion of about 600 meters into NATO airspace.”

[aboutime]

A great end comment, there, Balu ....

Our media reports that Putin not only says that the jet didn't stray into Turkish airspace, but that he can provide proof of it. So, OK, where IS that proof ? All I've seen are assertions, and nothing more.

But Balu, it isn't as though incursions by your military don't happen. They are known to happen, and are known to have increased enormously in frequency in recent times. Balu, will you just dismiss the following as 'Western propaganda', or, will you accept it happens, and that it should NOT be .. ?

See ....

http://www.euronews.com/2015/01/30/only-russia-dangerously-probes-british-airspace-says-source/



Of course. Everyone believes Everything Putin says...Just like Everyone believes Obama's endless lies???:laugh:

Putin has his socialist devoted people twisted around his Communist Little Finger. And like our Liberals. They repeat the lies so often...they have no choice but...TO BELIEVE THEM.

[Christie Brinkley]

Of course. Everyone believes Everything Putin says...Just like Everyone believes Obama's endless lies???:laugh:

Putin has his socialist devoted people twisted around his Communist Little Finger. And like our Liberals. They repeat the lies so often...they have no choice but...TO BELIEVE THEM.
If anything his support comes from nationalists and people who believe in a strong government/leadership which is ingrained in Russian society to this very day.

[aboutime]

If anything his support comes from nationalists and people who believe in a strong government/leadership which is ingrained in Russian society to this very day.


Which is also the MODEL being used by BERNIE SANDERS, HILLARY, and OBAMA in the destruction of America to become the UNITED SOCIALIST STATES OF MISERY.

[Christie Brinkley]

Which is also the MODEL being used by BERNIE SANDERS, HILLARY, and OBAMA in the destruction of America to become the UNITED SOCIALIST STATES OF MISERY.
The people you listed are internationalist globalists who could not care less about their country or countrymen.

[Drummond]

If anything his support comes from nationalists and people who believe in a strong government/leadership which is ingrained in Russian society to this very day.

For my part, your description reminds me of such 'fun' people as Hitler and Stalin.

Strong Government is perfectly fine, IF the leadership that comes from it is reputably driven. If not .. anything's possible. History teaches some extremely stark lessons about just how wrong and disgusting such leaderships and regimes can be.

Anyway, back to the point .. as I said before, Putin claims that proof exists of the whereabouts of the downed plane, proving that at no time did it violate Turkish airspace. I WANT THAT PROOF TO EMERGE.

Without it, I'm going to believe that this is the latest in a long line of incursion incidents which Russia has been responsible for in different parts of the world .. incidents that have increased dramatically in number on Putin's watch.

It's my belief that Putin's air force have become accustomed to perpetrating those violations, so much so that they are genuinely outraged that, on this occasion, they've had to pay a price for it ! Perhaps they seriously believe that NATO boundaries are a joke, ripe for violating, just as the whim takes them.

This should concern us all. I want the Russian side to provide proof of what they claim. If it doesn't materialise, I want to know why.

[Black Diamond]

For my part, your description reminds me of such 'fun' people as Hitler and Stalin.

Strong Government is perfectly fine, IF the leadership that comes from it is reputably driven. If not .. anything's possible. History teaches some extremely stark lessons about just how wrong and disgusting such leaderships and regimes can be.

Anyway, back to the point .. as I said before, Putin claims that proof exists of the whereabouts of the downed plane, proving that at no time did it violate Turkish airspace. I WANT THAT PROOF TO EMERGE.

Without it, I'm going to believe that this is the latest in a long line of incursion incidents which Russia has been responsible for in different parts of the world .. incidents that have increased dramatically in number on Putin's watch.

It's my belief that Putin's air force have become accustomed to perpetrating those violations, so much so that they are genuinely outraged that, on this occasion, they've had to pay a price for it ! Perhaps they seriously believe that NATO boundaries are a joke, ripe for violating, just as the whim takes them.

This should concern us all. I want the Russian side to provide proof of what they claim. If it doesn't materialise, I want to know why.

Why is this smelling like the Lusitania?

[Drummond]

Why is this smelling like the Lusitania?

Dunno.

Putin says he has proof that the jet was attacked while it was flying in Syria. OK, let's see him produce it to everyone's satisfaction. And not simply insist that we all take Russia's word for it ...

.. rather as Saddam insisted that the world merely take his ASSURANCE that Iraq had no WMD's ...

[Black Diamond]

Dunno.

Putin says he has proof that the jet was attacked while it was flying in Syria. OK, let's see him produce it to everyone's satisfaction. And not simply insist that we all take Russia's word for it ...

.. rather as Saddam insisted that the world merely take his ASSURANCE that Iraq had no WMD's ...
Throughout history, people have looked for excuses to go to war. The idea of Putin doing this is frightening.

[Drummond]

Throughout history, people have looked for excuses to go to war. The idea of Putin doing this is frightening.

Definitely agree !

By the way .. the BBC is playing part of a recording of what's said to be the Turkish warnings to the Russian plane to alter course. They can be heard strongly warning the jet to 'turn south immediately'.

The account says that the jet simply ignored them.

[Black Diamond]

Definitely agree !

By the way .. the BBC is playing part of a recording of what's said to be the Turkish warnings to the Russian plane to alter course. They can be heard strongly warning the jet to 'turn south immediately'.

The account says that the jet simply ignored them.
Yikes.

[Drummond]

Yikes.

Indeed.

The UK's Daily Mirror isn't my preferred news source (they're a Leftie tabloid). Nonetheless, it should be clear from this newspaper link, once you hear the video clip on the page, that Turkey DID transmit multiple warnings to the Russian jet to change course, to turn south 'immediately'. These were repeatedly transmitted, as Turkey has claimed, and completely ignored.

You can hear the person warning the jet becoming increasingly frantic as his calls went unheeded.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/listen-moment-turkish-military-warned-6900424

[Drummond]

Balu, I've asked for proof of Putin's stance.

Putin claims to have proof that no violation of Turkish airspace took place. Turkey, by total contrast, has released audio which shows that the Turkish military transmitted repeated warnings to the encroaching plane to change its course, southwards .. pleas which became increasingly frantic as the jet crew ignored them and just carried on.

The BBC transmitted this audio last night. This morning, the British press are also carrying it (shown in my previous post). Likewise, I've found Canadian sources which are providing it.

If we believe YOUR stance on this, Balu, no such transmissions were ever made !! But we have audio apparently proving otherwise. So, the onus is now on you to prove that Russia did not take the opportunity to abuse NATO airspace over Turkey.

Over to you, Balu. Prove your case ! Or, prove to us the true belligerent nature of Russia and its military forces, forces which are only ultimately concerned with following THEIR agenda.

[Balu]

http://cdn1.img.sputniknews.com/images/102275/71/1022757142.jpgRussian Foreign Ministry Advises Russians Against Visiting Turkey© Sputnik/ Maksim Blinov



Russia (http://sputniknews.com/russia/)<time class="b-article__refs-date" itemprop="dateCreated" datetime="2015-11-26T17:40">17:40 26.11.2015</time><time class="b-article__refs-date-upd" itemprop="dateModified" datetime="2015-11-26T17:46">(updated 17:46 26.11.2015) </time>Get short URL
1 (http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151126/1030808635/ministry-turkey-tourism-russia.html#comments)17950

Russia's Foreign Ministry recommended Thursday that Russians refrain from visiting Turkey.MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russia's Foreign Ministry recommended Thursday that Russians refrain from visiting Turkey, and called on those already in the country to return home.

"Due to continuing terrorist threats in Turkey, we reiterate our recommendation that Russian citizens refrain from visiting the Republic of Turkey, and we recommend that Russians staying there for personal reasons return home," the ministry said in a statement.






Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151126/1030808635/ministry-turkey-tourism-russia.html#ixzz3sbxAsgWo

[Drummond]

http://cdn1.img.sputniknews.com/images/102275/71/1022757142.jpgRussian Foreign Ministry Advises Russians Against Visiting Turkey

© Sputnik/ Maksim Blinov



Russia (http://sputniknews.com/russia/)<time class="b-article__refs-date" itemprop="dateCreated" datetime="2015-11-26T17:40">17:40 26.11.2015</time><time class="b-article__refs-date-upd" itemprop="dateModified" datetime="2015-11-26T17:46">(updated 17:46 26.11.2015) </time>Get short URL
1 (http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151126/1030808635/ministry-turkey-tourism-russia.html#comments)17950

Russia's Foreign Ministry recommended Thursday that Russians refrain from visiting Turkey.

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russia's Foreign Ministry recommended Thursday that Russians refrain from visiting Turkey, and called on those already in the country to return home.

"Due to continuing terrorist threats in Turkey, we reiterate our recommendation that Russian citizens refrain from visiting the Republic of Turkey, and we recommend that Russians staying there for personal reasons return home," the ministry said in a statement.






Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151126/1030808635/ministry-turkey-tourism-russia.html#ixzz3sbxAsgWo

Sorry, Balu, this won't do. Russia finding more ways to 'punish' Turkey for acting against an aggression against its NATO territory does precisely nothing to prove the correctness of your case.

I've asked you to prove that Russia's stance is the correct one, that the Russian jet did not 'stray' into NATO territory, that no warnings were ever transmitted from Turkey, as your navigator claimed. I'm still waiting for you to prove your case.

So get on with it ! Just proving that Russia has a talent for bullying nations, does nothing to prove you're CORRECT in your actions.

[Gunny]

Couple of questions come to mind:

Was NATO/US advised prior?

Obama desperate for Hollande not to push against sanctions in place on Russia due to Crimea-Hollande heading for meeting with Putin, after meeting with Obama. Guess which one is the strong dog?

It doesn't matter if NATO was advised. The Turks are arrogant a-holes. THE reason we are allowed to have any bases there is because it's in their best interest. If there were not more pressing matters (ISIS/Syria) I'd like to see a confrontation between Turkey and Russia. It'd be like an Eagles - Redskins game ... who cares who wins?

This situation is out of control and we're the hypocrites in the middle.

[Drummond]

It doesn't matter if NATO was advised. The Turks are arrogant a-holes. THE reason we are allowed to have any bases there is because it's in their best interest. If there not more pressing matters (ISIS/Syria) I'd like to see a confrontation between Turkey and Russia. It'd be like an Eagles - Redskins game ... who cares who wins?

This situation is out of control and we're the hypocrites in the middle.

Looks like a confrontation between Turkey and Russia is already brewing, though it'll doubtless remain at diplomatic level.

I've no love for Turkey, and there's a lot of latitude to criticise them. Nonetheless .. and regardless of reason(s) for having bases there, or the basics of why they enjoy NATO protection and membership .. there's a central point at issue. It's whether Russia has ANY right to violate any NATO territory for any reason whatever.

Russia has been reported as trying its luck on many occasions in the past, and on Putin's watch, the frequency of these occurrences has increased greatly (one week alone, Russian jets had to be escorted away from British airspace no less than THREE times). I think that what we have now is a Russian airforce that's become accustomed to invading NATO airspace and never incurring meaningful consequences out if it.

They're genuine in their anger, I think, because this time around, they've actually had to pay a price for their arrogance, and they hate this !! But, so far from admitting culpability, they're now hoping to ride on the back of anti-Muslim sentiment and make Turkey pay a hefty price for DARING to shoot down an INVADING plane.

Does NATO airspace remain inviolable, or, are there different 'qualities' to such airspace ? Are some OK to violate, just as the Russians think fit ? Can the Russians be backed in their insufferable arrogance, just because a Muslim country happens to be involved ?

I say that NATO airspace is NATO airspace, and unless given specific permission to encroach, NO such territories should be invaded. An attack on NATO territory is an attack on all of it. YES, or NO ?

[Balu]

Russia and Syria forces delivered massive strike at area of Russian Su-24 crash — official

November 26, 19:44 UTC+3
Terrorists and "other mysterious groups acting in the area" were destroyed, says Russian Defense Ministry spokesman Maj. Gen. Igor Konashenkov http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/dirol.gif




http://cdn.itar-tass.com/width/744_b12f2926/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20151126/1115828.jpg

© Russian Defense Ministry's Press and Information Department/TASS

MOSCOW, November 26. /TASS/. The military of Russia and Syria delivered massive strikes at the territory where the pilot of Russia's Sukhoi Su-24M aircraft downed by the Turkish Air Force was rescued, Russian Defense Ministry spokesman Maj. Gen. Igor Konashenkov said Thursday.



http://cdn.itar-tass.com/fit/333x9999_4ec25037/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20151126/1115822.jpg (http://tass.ru/en/defense/839633)© Sergey Balakleyev/ITAR-TASS Russia's S-400 air defense system enters combat duty in Syria — defense ministry (http://tass.ru/en/defense/839633)




"As soon as our pilot was safe, Russian bombers and rocket artillery of the Syrian government forces delivered massive strikes at the mentioned area," Konashenkov said.
"Terrorists and other mysterious groups acting in the area were destroyed," he said.
The spokesman added that militants and other armed units equipped with advanced devices tried to hunt down the navigator of the downed Russian Sukhoi-24M jet.
"I’d like to stress that apart from our search teams, the militants and other armed units equipped with devices for bearings were actively searching for the Russian pilot [who had managed to eject - TASS]," Gen Konashenkov said.




He recalled that the operation to track down and rescue the Russian pilot on the night from November 24 to November 25 lasted more than twelve hours.
"For the reasons that are clearly understandable, we can’t disclose all the details of that operation," Gen Konashenkov said.
According to Konashenkov, Russian aircraft have made 134 sorties over the past three days, attacking nearly 450 targets in eight Syrian provinces.
On November 23-26, Russian Aerospace Forces’ aircraft have carried out 134 sorties at 449 facilities in the provinces of Aleppo, Damascus, Idlib, Latakia, Hama, Homs, Rakka and Deir-ez-Zor," Konashenkov said.
After carrying out military tasks, all Russian combat aircraft safely returned to the Khmeimim airbase, he said.
Gallery 8 photo


http://cdn.itar-tass.com/fit/333x9999_4ec25037/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20151124/1115386.jpg (http://tass.ru/en/defense/838723)© Anton Novoderezhkin/TASS Russian Navy ships in fight against Islamic State (http://tass.ru/en/defense/838723)




Russia’s Aerospace Forces started delivering pinpoint strikes in Syria at facilities of the Islamic State and Jabhat al-Nusra terrorist organizations, which are banned in Russia, on September 30, 2015, on a request from Syrian President Bashar Assad.
The air group initially comprised over 50 aircraft and helicopters, including Sukhoi Su-24M, Su-25SM and state-of-the-art Su-34 aircraft. They were redeployed to the Khmeimim airbase in the province of Latakia.
On October 7, four missile ships of the Russian Navy’s Caspian Flotilla fired 26 Kalibr cruise missiles (NATO codename Sizzler) at militants’ facilities in Syria. On October 8, the Syrian army passed to a large-scale offensive.
In mid-November, Russia increased the number of aircraft taking part in the operation in Syria to 69 and involved strategic bombers in strikes at militants.

[Balu]

Russia's S-400 air defense system enters combat duty in Syria — defense ministry http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/dirol.gif

November 26, 19:10 UTC+3
Moscow made the decision to bring its S-400 air defense complexes to Hmeimim after Turkey last Tuesday downed a Russian Sukhoi-24 front-line bomber Material has 1 page


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Editors choice
http://photocdn1.itar-tass.com/crop/200x128_c4cb5c4a/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20151126/1115825.jpg
Russia's S-400 air defense system enters combat duty in Syria — defense ministry November 26, 19:10
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Tupolev design bureau bombers November 26, 18:19
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Third day of protest outside Turkish embassy in Moscow over downed Russian jet November 26, 14:19
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Russian journalists who came under fire in Syria return to Moscow November 26, 10:33
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Turkish embassy in Moscow attacked over Su-24 incident November 25, 18:10
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Boris Yeltsin Presidential Center opens in Urals November 25, 8:53
(http://tass.ru/en/society/839024)




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Russia's S-400 air defense system (archive)
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Russia's S-400 air defense system (archive)
© ITAR-TASS/Sergey Balakleyev/TASS



MOSCOW, November 26. /TASS/. Russia’s S-400 air defense system has entered duty at the Hmeimim air base accommodating Russia’s air and space group in Syria, Russian Defense Ministry spokesman Igor Konashenkov has told the media.
"In accordance with the decision of Russia’s Supreme Commander-in-Chief an air defense complex S-400 has been promptly delivered to the Russian air base in Hmeimim in Syria. It has been deployed and entered combat duty to provide air defense for the area," he said.
Read also
Russian Foreign Ministry: Turkey is clearly an accomplice of terrorists (http://tass.ru/en/politics/839561)
Russia to increase protection of Syria operations after Su-24 jet downing — diplomat (http://tass.ru/en/politics/839446)
Russia FM points to gross violation of Syria flight safety memorandum (http://tass.ru/en/politics/839358)
Kerry offers condolences over Turkey's downing of Russian warplane (http://tass.ru/en/world/839355)
Moscow’s retaliation for downed Sukhoi-24M will depend on what Ankara does next (http://tass.ru/en/opinions/839325)
What’s behind Turkey’s provocative decision to shoot down Russian bomber? (http://tass.ru/en/opinions/839292)
Eighteen Turkish fighter jets patrolled border with Syria — Turkey's General Staff (http://tass.ru/en/world/839284)




Konashenkov also noted the Russian Defense Ministry is surprised over the US reaction to the deployment of an S-400 air defense system in Syria.
"The reaction by the US side to this move causes a surprise," the spokesman said.
The general cited a statement by the US embassy in Moscow, which said that the deployment of the S-400 system would further complicate the already tense situation in the sky over Syria.
"What can be said in this regard? We shared this opinion until Tuesday as we were confident that our planes destroying the facilities of the Islamic State [terrorist organization outlawed in Russia] were guaranteed against attacks from the so-called US-led anti-IS coalition," Konashenkov said.
Russia has also taken other measures to defend its aviation in Syria. Specifically, the missile cruiser Moskva went on combat duty from 10:00 a.m. Moscow time (07:00 GMT) on Wednesday to provide air defense for the Russian air base in Syria. The Moskva missile cruiser is armed with the Fort system, which is the naval version of the S-300 antiaircraft missile complex, the general said.
"Now we’ll ensure the defense of our air group’s aircraft in operations against IS terrorists and other terrorist groupings by more reliable means," the Russian Defense Ministry spokesman said.
Read also
http://cdn.itar-tass.com/fit/333x9999_4ec25037/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20151125/1115616.jpg© Dmitriy Rogulin/ITAR-TASS (http://tass.ru/en/defense/839268)Kremlin: Russian S-400 missile systems will be returned home after Syria operation is over (http://tass.ru/en/defense/839268)



An F-16 fighter jet from the Turkish Air Force shot down a Russian Su-24M bomber on Tuesday. Ankara claims the Su-24M bomber violated the Turkish air space in the area of the border with Syria.
However, Russia’s Defense Ministry has said the Su-24M plane stayed exclusively over the Syrian territory and "there was no violation of the Turkish air space."
Russian President Putin has warned that the attack on the bomber will have "serious consequences" for the Russian-Turkish relations. According to Putin, the Turkish Air Force’s attack on the Russian combat plane that took part in the operation against terrorists in Syria and posed no threat to Turkey is a "stab in Russia’s back."
The crew of the Su-24M bomber managed to eject but one of the pilots was killed by gunfire from the ground. The second pilot was rescued and taken to the Russian air base. The rescue operation involved two Mi-8 helicopters. One of the helicopters came under fire and made a crash landing and a contract soldier was killed. The helicopter’s other personnel were evacuated to a safe place. The Mi-8 helicopter damaged by gunfire was subsequently destroyed by mortar fire from the territory controlled by militants.
Gallery 12 photo


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[Gunny]

Looks like a confrontation between Turkey and Russia is already brewing, though it'll doubtless remain at diplomatic level.

I've no love for Turkey, and there's a lot of latitude to criticise them. Nonetheless .. and regardless of reason(s) for having bases there, or the basics of why they enjoy NATO protection and membership .. there's a central point at issue. It's whether Russia has ANY right to violate any NATO territory for any reason whatever.

Russia has been reported as trying its luck on many occasions in the past, and on Putin's watch, the frequency of these occurrences has increased greatly (one week alone, Russian jets had to be escorted away from British airspace no less than THREE times). I think that what we have now is a Russian airforce that's become accustomed to invading NATO airspace and never incurring meaningful consequences out if it.

They're genuine in their anger, I think, because this time around, they've actually had to pay a price for their arrogance, and they hate this !! But, so far from admitting culpability, they're now hoping to ride on the back of anti-Muslim sentiment and make Turkey pay a hefty price for DARING to shoot down an INVADING plane.

Does NATO airspace remain inviolable, or, are their different 'qualities' to such airspace ? Are some OK to violate, just as the Russians think fit ? Can the Russians be backed in their insufferable arrogance, just because a Muslim country happens to be involved ?

I say that NATO airspace is NATO airspace, and unless given specific permission to encroach, NO such territories should be invaded. An attack on NATO territory is an attack on all of it. YES, or NO ?

I don't disagree. I see it more as sovereign airspace than NATO airspace. I look at NATO the same way I look at the UN -- useless wastes of money. Paper tigers. As has been pointed out on previous threads, this is shaping into a war based on alliances. WWI Part II.

[Balu]

Turkey’s annual revenues from Russian tourists stood at $10 bln — Russian tourism watchdog

Business & Economy (http://tass.ru/en/economy)
November 26, 18:01 UTC+3 MOSCOW

The Russian tourism agency recommended Russians not to visit Turkey due to terrorist threat


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© AP Photo/Lefteris Pitarakis

Read also
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Dmitry Astakhov/Russian government press service/TASS (http://tass.ru/en/politics/839514)Russia PM orders defense, diplomatic, economic measures in response to Turkey's aggression (http://tass.ru/en/politics/839514)


MOSCOW, November 26. /TASS/. Turkey's annual revenues from Russian tourists stood at $10 bln, Head of the Federal Agency for Tourism (Rostourism) Oleg Safonov said on Thursday.
"More than 4.400 mln Russian tourists used to visit Turkey each year while the country's annual revenues from them stood at around $10 bln," Safonov said, adding that the country will "obviously not be receiving those funds anymore."
He pointed out that the Russian president said relations between Turkey and Russia will be revised, which Safonov said obviously means "this will have serious long-term implications, in this case for tourism."

As TASS reported earlier after a terror attack in Egypt and an incident in Turkey Russia’s tourism watchdog will consider offering alternative destinations within the country to tourists. On Wednesday, Oleg Safonov said Rostourism recommended Russians not to visit Turkey due to terrorist threat. "We have received a recommendation from the Russian Foreign Ministry. The Ministry recommended refraining from visits to Turkey as terrorism threat there is no less than in Egypt," he said.
Russia’s Su-24 warplane was downed by an air-to-air missile launched from a Turkish F-16 fighter jet when it was at an altitude of 6,000 meters at a distance of one kilometer from the Turkish border. Ankara claims the Russian warplane had violated Turkey’s air space while the Russian Defense Ministry says the Su-24 was flying above Syria.

[Gunny]

Poor Balu. Look at all the 2nd rate weaponry being paid for by stolen Ukranian oil. And STILL got shot down by a Turk in a US-made F-15. :laugh:

[Drummond]

Turkey’s annual revenues from Russian tourists stood at $10 bln — Russian tourism watchdog

Business & Economy (http://tass.ru/en/economy)
November 26, 18:01 UTC+3 MOSCOW

The Russian tourism agency recommended Russians not to visit Turkey due to terrorist threat


http://cdn.itar-tass.com/width/744_b12f2926/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20151126/1115812.jpg
© AP Photo/Lefteris Pitarakis

Read also
http://photocdn1.itar-tass.com/fit/333x9999_4ec25037/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20151126/1115769.jpg

Dmitry Astakhov/Russian government press service/TASS (http://tass.ru/en/politics/839514)Russia PM orders defense, diplomatic, economic measures in response to Turkey's aggression (http://tass.ru/en/politics/839514)


MOSCOW, November 26. /TASS/. Turkey's annual revenues from Russian tourists stood at $10 bln, Head of the Federal Agency for Tourism (Rostourism) Oleg Safonov said on Thursday.
"More than 4.400 mln Russian tourists used to visit Turkey each year while the country's annual revenues from them stood at around $10 bln," Safonov said, adding that the country will "obviously not be receiving those funds anymore."
He pointed out that the Russian president said relations between Turkey and Russia will be revised, which Safonov said obviously means "this will have serious long-term implications, in this case for tourism."

As TASS reported earlier after a terror attack in Egypt and an incident in Turkey Russia’s tourism watchdog will consider offering alternative destinations within the country to tourists. On Wednesday, Oleg Safonov said Rostourism recommended Russians not to visit Turkey due to terrorist threat. "We have received a recommendation from the Russian Foreign Ministry. The Ministry recommended refraining from visits to Turkey as terrorism threat there is no less than in Egypt," he said.
Russia’s Su-24 warplane was downed by an air-to-air missile launched from a Turkish F-16 fighter jet when it was at an altitude of 6,000 meters at a distance of one kilometer from the Turkish border. Ankara claims the Russian warplane had violated Turkey’s air space while the Russian Defense Ministry says the Su-24 was flying above Syria.

I'm still seeing no proof that Turkey was the aggressor.

Putin claims to have proof that NATO airspace wasn't violated. But, WHERE is this 'proof' ? I keep asking for some evidence of it, and seeing .. none at all.

OK, Russia can make 'aggrieved' noises. Russia can threaten (it's very good at such things). Russia can be nasty when it's displeased. But, is Russia in the RIGHT, or ISN'T IT ?

The BBC, some online British newspaper sites, and at least one Canadian source, have all carried a recording of a Turkish military commander transmitting warnings to the encroaching Russian jet to change its course. Several such warnings were transmitted, all of them ignored ... with the person issuing those warnings becoming increasingly alarmed at being disregarded.

The evidence of Russia's culpability is available for anyone to check out. But ... no evidence of proof of RUSSIA'S claim to be the innocent party in this.

If you cannot provide such proof, Balu, why not admit it ? You are challenged, yet again, to do so.

[Drummond]

Poor Balu. Look at all the 2nd rate weaponry being paid for by stolen Ukranian oil. And STILL got shot down by a Turk in a US-made F-15. :laugh:

It's not as though Turkey didn't give plenty of warning !! :laugh:

Russia has paid a price for its arrogance. Most probably, the crew of that jet totally disbelieved that Turkey would do a thing to defend its airspace, so remained non-alert to even the possibility.

Perhaps NATO forces should do far more than they already do to deter Russia's encroachments. Being 'soft' on this has only encouraged Russia to continue to show disrespect to lawful borders.

[Gunny]

It's not as though Turkey didn't give plenty of warning !! :laugh:

Russia has paid a price for its arrogance. Most probably, the crew of that jet totally disbelieved that Turkey would do a thing to defend its airspace, so remained non-alert to even the possibility.

Perhaps NATO forces should do far more than they already do to deter Russia's encroachments. Being 'soft' on this has only encouraged Russia to continue to show disrespect to lawful borders.

Thing is, Russia's no more arrogant than Turkey. Turks are a trip. They think they're still ruling the Ottoman Empire. Been almost a century since they lost that. However, because they border Russia, they have a good military and the best of our weapons. They're NOT going to take any crap, I can tell you that.

WE -- the US -- are THE problem because of our politics. I would rather see Assad in power than either ISIS OR the rebels for the same reason I was against ousting Saddam. Who needs another radical Sunni caliphate? Everyone needs to get their damned act together and play like a team and destroy ISIS. They can go back to squabbling over the little crap later.

[Drummond]

Thing is, Russia's no more arrogant than Turkey. Turks are a trip. They think they're still ruling the Ottoman Empire. Been almost a century since they lost that. However, because they border Russia, they have a good military and the best of our weapons. They're NOT going to take any crap, I can tell you that.

WE -- the US -- are THE problem because of our politics. I would rather see Assad in power than either ISIS OR the rebels for the same reason I was against ousting Saddam. Who needs another radical Sunni caliphate? Everyone needs to get their damned act together and play like a team and destroy ISIS. They can go back to squabbling over the little crap later.

I have to agree.

Russians have been exceptionally stupid in thinking that Turkey would just sit still for any displays of arrogance from them.

These days, I agree that Assad remaining in power is preferable. I didn't used to think that. Unfortunately, two years ago, the BBC was repeating the same sort of propaganda it put out over Libya .. evil tyrant, brave and laudable rebels, resisting that tyranny, end of story !! Then, when it was reported that Assad had used chemical weapons, they went overboard in demonising him. Back in those days, zero attention was paid to identifying who his opposition were, or what their real objectives might be. Evil ruler, brave rebels .. 'end of story, nothing more to be considered'.

Now that ISIS are identified as such, and what they do has received a great deal of attention, that's all changed. Two years ago, David Cameron tried to get Parliament to vote in favour of attacks on Assad's regime, no doubt fully believing the BBC's simplistic reporting. He failed to get them approved. So, TODAY, he's repeated his efforts, this time trying to get approval to join the airstrikes against Syria. We're waiting for news on that ... remembering how badly he lost last time, Cameron will only put this to a vote IF he's confident of winning !

It's not wimpishness on Cameron's part .. he believes that a 'no' vote would be good propaganda material for ISIS, and won't allow them such a victory. But ... he's still listening to BBC pap. He did so two years ago, and stupidly based foreign policy on what THEIR worldview was .. maybe because so much of the British public believes it all ?

Jeremy Corbyn, Labour leader, unsurprisingly opposes British involvement in Syria. He actually argues that attacking ISIS might visit Paris-style attacks on to British soil, so says that leaving ISIS alone may 'be better for our welfare'.

Disgusting, fairly typical Leftie appeasement treachery. But then, that's Lefties for you. Though, that said, and to be fair .. even much of his own Party objects to Corbyn's own stance !!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34939109


Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has written to his MPs to say he cannot support UK air strikes targeting so-called Islamic State in Syria.

He rejected Prime Minister David Cameron's claim in a Commons debate that action would make Britain safer.

And he said the PM had no "coherent strategy" for the defeat of IS.

A leading shadow cabinet member said his intervention - which puts him at odds with half of his front bench - would lead to resignations.

"There will be resignations among senior members of the shadow cabinet over this," the shadow cabinet member told BBC assistant political editor Norman Smith.

He said Mr Corbyn's letter had led to a breakdown of trust within the shadow cabinet, which had not been consulted before it was sent.

A British serviceman would be "insulted" by Mr Corbyn's "ridiculous party games" he said, adding: "We are becoming a complete joke."

[Gunny]

I have to agree.

Russians have been exceptionally stupid in thinking that Turkey would just sit still for any displays of arrogance from them.

These days, I agree that Assad remaining in power is preferable. I didn't used to think that. Unfortunately, two years ago, the BBC was repeating the same sort of propaganda it put out over Libya .. evil tyrant, brave and laudable rebels, resisting that tyranny, end of story !! Then, when it was reported that Assad had used chemical weapons, they went overboard in demonising him. Back in those days, zero attention was paid to identifying who his opposition were, or what their real objectives might be. Evil ruler, brave rebels .. 'end of story, nothing more to be considered'.

Now that ISIS are identified as such, and what they do has received a great deal of attention, that's all changed. Two years ago, David Cameron tried to get Parliament to vote in favour of attacks on Assad's regime, no doubt fully believing the BBC's simplistic reporting. He failed to get them approved. So, TODAY, he's repeated his efforts, this time trying to get approval to join the airstrikes against Syria. We're waiting for news on that ... remembering how badly he lost last time, Cameron will only put this to a vote IF he's confident of winning !

It's not wimpishness on Cameron's part .. he believes that a 'no' vote would be good propaganda material for ISIS, and won't allow them such a victory. But ... he's still listening to BBC pap. He did so two years ago, and stupidly based foreign policy on what THEIR worldview was .. maybe because so much of the British public believes it all ?

Jeremy Corbyn, Labour leader, unsurprisingly opposes British involvement in Syria. He actually argues that attacking ISIS might visit Paris-style attacks on to British soil, so says that leaving ISIS alone may 'be better for our welfare'.

Disgusting, fairly typical Leftie appeasement treachery. But then, that's Lefties for you. Though, that said, and to be fair .. even much of his own Party objects to Corbyn's own stance !!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34939109

These leftwingers are a trip. They don't realize the best way to stop Paris-style attacks is to stop them before they start. Take out ISIS, you take out the funding and foundation.

And these clowns don't realize what terrorism actually is. They carry out one attack and make a hundred threats and everyone panics over the hundred threats. They've threatened "Black Friday" (first shopping day for Christmas here" and it's going to have an effect. Idiots like Obama say ignore them and go shopping. Fine for him living in the White House with Secret Service protection.

I say destroy the threat and there isn't one.

[Drummond]

These leftwingers are a trip. They don't realize the best way to stop Paris-style attacks is to stop them before they start. Take out ISIS, you take out the funding and foundation.

And these clowns don't realize what terrorism actually is. They carry out one attack and make a hundred threats and everyone panics over the hundred threats. They've threatened "Black Friday" (first shopping day for Christmas here" and it's going to have an effect. Idiots like Obama say ignore them and go shopping. Fine for him living in the White House with Secret Service protection.

I say destroy the threat and there isn't one.

Totally agree (& we have Black Friday, too ... ).

Corbyn's extreme for even our own lefties ... so much so that he's in increasing danger of fracturing the Labour Party over his pacifistic stances. He's publicly declared that if he ever became Prime Minister, he'd not 'press the button' and use our own version of a nuclear deterrent (.. such as it is ! ..) under ANY circumstances AT ALL. He's also in favour of us scrapping all of our nuclear capability.

Corbyn opposes any 'shoot to kill' policy where our police tackling terrorists on our streets are concerned. You have to assume that if he was in charge, and a policeman shot a terrorist dead to protect lives, he'd suffer prosecution and jail time for doing it !!

Now, he's opposing all efforts to get us involved in bombing Syria, riding on the back of the climate of disapproval Labour created over Blair's cooperation with Bush on the War on Terror. [Gordon Brown, his successor, commissioned the Chilcot Inquiry, whose purpose is to investigate and report on culpabilities involved in the 'mistake' of taking us to war against Saddam. That it's taken Chilcot over five years to report back, presumably testifies to the impossibility of his task (?).]

Our Lefties are doing their own version of an Obama .. that of working towards disempowerment. Obama's timid on the world stage, no doubt very deliberately so. Our Lefties are going for all-out appeasement, and already say that military action has no future, that the only possible answer to ISIS is through negotiation !!!

I hear it on our phone-in programmes. It actually seems to be that a lot of people buy into the idea that 'an ideology cannot be defeated, therefore, diplomatic overtures are and must be the only way forward'. As if ISIS are natural-born negotiators, and think of anything beyond how many people they can slaughter !!

You should listen to some of it on the Internet. If you ever do, check out the LBC feed (London Broadcasting), especially James O'Brien's programmes (10AM - 1PM, weekdays, GMT). He actually silences callers if they stray too far from his Leftie thinking .. so much of it centering on the notion that 'proper' Islam is 'peaceful' ....

[Gunny]

Totally agree (& we have Black Friday, too ... ).

Corbyn's extreme for even our own lefties ... so much so that he's in increasing danger of fracturing the Labour Party over his pacifistic stances. He's publicly declared that if he ever became Prime Minister, he'd not 'press the button' and use our own version of a nuclear deterrent (.. such as it is ! ..) under ANY circumstances AT ALL. He's also in favour of us scrapping all of our nuclear capability.

Corbyn opposes any 'shoot to kill' policy where our police tackling terrorists on our streets are concerned. You have to assume that if he was in charge, and a policeman shot a terrorist dead to protect lives, he'd suffer prosecution and jail time for doing it !!

Now, he's opposing all efforts to get us involved in bombing Syria, riding on the back of the climate of disapproval Labour created over Blair's cooperation with Bush on the War on Terror. [Gordon Brown, his successor, commissioned the Chilcot Inquiry, whose purpose is to investigate and report on culpabilities involved in the 'mistake' of taking us to war against Saddam. That it's taken Chilcot over five years to report back, presumably testifies to the impossibility of his task (?).]

Our Lefties are doing their own version of an Obama .. that of working towards disempowerment. Obama's timid on the world stage, no doubt very deliberately so. Our Lefties are going for all-out appeasement, and already say that military action has no future, that the only possible answer to ISIS is through negotiation !!!

I hear it on our phone-in programmes. It actually seems to be that a lot of people buy into the idea that 'an ideology cannot be defeated, therefore, diplomatic overtures are and must be the only way forward'. As if ISIS are natural-born negotiators, and think of anything beyond how many people they can slaughter !!

You should listen to some of it on the Internet. If you ever do, check out the LBC feed (London Broadcasting), especially James O'Brien's programmes (10AM - 1PM, weekdays, GMT). He actually silences callers if they stray too far from his Leftie thinking .. so much of it centering on the notion that 'proper' Islam is 'peaceful' ....

Sounds like Bernie Sanders. AND Rand Paul. One's extreme one way, the other's extreme in the opposite direction.

Problem is, IF this becomes a NATO issue, then what? Both our countries are bound by treaty to participate. And I'd REALLY like to know how NATO could spend all that time in the 90s in Yugoslavia which wasn't a threat to anyone; yet, are recalcitrant to get involved in something that is a threat to ALL of us.

[Drummond]

Sounds like Bernie Sanders. AND Rand Paul. One's extreme one way, the other's extreme in the opposite direction.

Problem is, IF this becomes a NATO issue, then what? Both our countries are bound by treaty to participate. And I'd REALLY like to know how NATO could spend all that time in the 90s in Yugoslavia which wasn't a threat to anyone; yet, are recalcitrant to get involved in something that is a threat to ALL of us.

I'm far from 'expert' in these matters ... but would it be the case that NATO wouldn't see that it had cause to get involved, because ISIS don't constitute a Nation State, so it can't be said that they're attacking a NATO member if they keep attacking NATO territories ?

This all probably comes under the purview of the UN, and only the UN. I've already noted Balu's offerings where that's concerned ... if I understand his position correctly (which is indistinguishable from Putin's own) he says that any / all action against ISIS in Syria should not be attempted by any Nation State unless the UN's Security Council has approved it.

... which means two things .. firstly, it would, if applied, in principle rob France of any right to just choose to take their own unilateral action in response to Paris, since they'd 'have to' go cap-in-hand to the UN for PERMISSION to act (!!!) .. and secondly, since Russia has the power of veto over any Security Council agreements, this means that, specifically and effectively, RUSSIA must rubber-stamp ANY and ALL representations to join them in attacking ISIS !!

It all comes down to Russia's willingness to be cooperative on a case-by-case basis.

I think that's the real point. Russia wants total control in the region. Now, against ISIS: and in the aftermath, I think they want that control to continue undiminished, no doubt with Assad continuing on as Russia's puppet.

Should the West remain so much in thrall to Russia's actions against ISIS that, ultimately, we just let them achieve all their goals of geopolitical domination ?? Because this is what I think will be at stake in years to come.

[Gunny]

I'm far from 'expert' in these matters ... but would it be the case that NATO wouldn't see that it had cause to get involved, because ISIS don't constitute a Nation State, so it can't be said that they're attacking a NATO member if they keep attacking NATO territories ?

This all probably comes under the purview of the UN, and only the UN. I've already noted Balu's offerings where that's concerned ... if I understand his position correctly (which is indistinguishable from Putin's own) he says that any / all action against ISIS in Syria should not be attempted by any Nation State unless the UN's Security Council has approved it.

... which means two things .. firstly, it would, if applied, in principle rob France of any right to just choose to take their own unilateral action in response to Paris, since they'd 'have to' go cap-in-hand to the UN for PERMISSION to act (!!!) .. and secondly, since Russia has the power of veto over any Security Council agreements, this means that, specifically and effectively, RUSSIA must rubber-stamp ANY and ALL representations to join them in attacking ISIS !!

It all comes down to Russia's willingness to be cooperative on a case-by-case basis.

I think that's the real point. Russia wants total control in the region. Now, against ISIS: and in the aftermath, I think they want that control to continue undiminished, no doubt with Assad continuing on as Russia's puppet.

Should the West remain so much in thrall to Russia's actions against ISIS that, ultimately, we just let them achieve all their goals of geopolitical domination ?? Because this is what I think will be at stake in years to come.

NATO is based on Cold War lines. It was kind of outdated until Putin came along. However, France and Belgium are NATO members. ISIS claims to be a nation and has an infrastructure, capitol, military and occupies territory. Depending on whether you are on the right or left will determine the answer.

IMO, NATO has every right to go after ISIS since they have taken credit for attacking two NATO nations and threatened more. You want credit, I'll give it to you. Then blow your a$$ off the face of the earth. I don't care about Syria. We've seen what happens when Hussein Obama removed our troops from Iraq. Gave ISIS a playground. Same with Khaddafi.

Saddam, Khaddafi and Assad may be despots, but they were secular and kept the Muslims in check. Each time one has been removed, it's resulted in chaos, terrorism and ISIS.

[Drummond]

NATO is based on Cold War lines. It was kind of outdated until Putin came along. However, France and Belgium are NATO members. ISIS claims to be a nation and has an infrastructure, capitol, military and occupies territory. Depending on whether you are on the right or left will determine the answer.

IMO, NATO has every right to go after ISIS since they have taken credit for attacking two NATO nations and threatened more. You want credit, I'll give it to you. Then blow your a$$ off the face of the earth. I don't care about Syria. We've seen what happens when Hussein Obama removed our troops from Iraq. Gave ISIS a playground. Same with Khaddafi.

Saddam, Khaddafi and Assad may be depots, but they were secular and kept the Muslims in check. Each time one has been removed, it's resulted in chaos, terrorism and ISIS.

I think that NATO would have to keep out of tackling ISIS on the grounds that it'd constitute effectively recognising them as a Nation State. Which in turn would mean a form of officially granting them a level of legitimacy on the world stage that ISIS would happily use to propagandist effect.

What's really needed, in my view, is for Russia's dominance in the region to be fundamentally opposed. I think countries should just wade in, regardless of any UN posturing (Balu will of course absolutely hate that !) and offer cooperation with Russia, in return for recognition of their right to remain autonomously-acting partners in the goal of ISIS's removal.

I think that if Russia were to be tested on that level, we'd all suddenly get to understand that Russia, actually, is NO form of 'ally' AT ALL. They're just there, 'doing their thing', feeling and believing that they have every right to tread on anyone objecting.

Turkey has just experienced that, and Russia is determined to make Turkey pay for so much as OBJECTING to Russia's shenanigans in any form of meaningful, accountable way. Russia wants to dominate whatever she feels like dominating. It's the international version of a school bully in that regard.

[Gunny]

I think that NATO would have to keep out of tackling ISIS on the grounds that it'd constitute effectively recognising them as a Nation State. Which in turn would mean a form of officially granting them a level of legitimacy on the world stage that ISIS would happily use to propagandist effect.

What's really needed, in my view, is for Russia's dominance in the region to be fundamentally opposed. I think countries should just wade in, regardless of any UN posturing (Balu will of course absolutely hate that !) and offer cooperation with Russia, in return for recognition of their right to remain autonomously-acting partners in the goal of ISIS's removal.

I think that if Russia were to be tested on that level, we'd all suddenly get to understand that Russia, actually, is NO form of 'ally' AT ALL. They're just there, 'doing their thing', feeling and believing that they have every right to tread on anyone objecting.

Turkey has just experienced that, and Russia is determined to make Turkey pay for so much as OBJECTING to Russia's shenanigans in any form of meaningful, accountable way. Russia wants to dominate whatever she feels like dominating. It's the international version of a school bully in that regard.

I think we need to get past that. Obama's already recognized them as a state. They are constantly referred to by him and the media as the "Islamic State".

The problem is, Syria has been a pseudo-puppet of Russia from Day One. They've ALWAYS backed Assad and provided him with materiel. They turned a blind eye to Assad allowing Hezbollah to headquarter in Syria. Thing is, the intertwining of the groups and who is supporting who. I think we ought to pull our heads out of collective butts and deal with ISIS. If Russia wants to intervene in Syria's civil war, so be it. I don't think we should.

However, address the bigger threat FIRST. Syria and Russia have been butt buddies since whenever. ISIS is a global threat. Syria/Assad and Russia are regional threats.

[Drummond]

I think we need to get past that. Obama's already recognized them as a state. They are constantly referred to by him and the media as the "Islamic State".

The problem is, Syria has been a pseudo-puppet of Russia from Day One. They've ALWAYS backed Assad and provided him with materiel. They turned a blind eye to Assad allowing Hezbollah to headquarter in Syria. Thing is, the intertwining of the groups and who is supporting who. I think we ought to pull our heads out of collective butts and deal with ISIS. If Russia wants to intervene in Syria's civil war, so be it. I don't think we should.

However, address the bigger threat FIRST. Syria and Russia have been butt buddies since whenever. ISIS is a global threat. Syria/Assad and Russia are regional threats.

I can't disagree with any of this. I'd simply say, though, that Russia's belligerence cannot and should not be underestimated. It can find expression in all sorts of ways at any time. Their insistence on punishing Turkey for defending its borders, in doing so, defending NATO borders, shows that they're not bound by standards of decency the West would think necessary to civilised conduct.

I'm surprised that even Obama chooses to recognises ISIS as a 'State'. Not even the hardest-bitten of our Lefties, here, do that ! If they give it its 'full title', always it's referred to with the qualifier 'SO-CALLED Islamic State'. The BBC is scrupulous in always doing that.

Obama isn't the world (... much though he'd probably disagree). The world as a whole wouldn't see ISIS as having such status. I don't believe the UN does so. Obama, by going further, renders his view irrelevant - surely.

[Gunny]

I can't disagree with any of this. I'd simply say, though, that Russia's belligerence cannot and should not be underestimated. It can find expression in all sorts of ways at any time. Their insistence on punishing Turkey for defending its borders, in doing so, defending NATO borders, shows that they're not bound by standards of decency the West would think necessary to civilised conduct.

I'm surprised that even Obama chooses to recognises ISIS as a 'State'. Not even the hardest-bitten of our Lefties, here, do that ! If they give it its 'full title', always it's referred to with the qualifier 'SO-CALLED Islamic State'. The BBC is scrupulous in always doing that.

Obama isn't the world (... much though he'd probably disagree). The world as a whole wouldn't see ISIS as having such status. I don't believe the UN does so. Obama, by going further, renders his view irrelevant - surely.

I don't underestimate ANYONE. I'm a Cold War baby from a military family. I was born and bred to hate and kill Russians/commies. And I was in the Marine Corps before the Cold War ended so I was trained to do it as well.

I don't trust Putin for a second. As it was with Stalin, Russia has its own agenda. However, we have weak leaders this time around more interested in politics than addressing a threat and Russia still has the bully. And no one's invading Russia this time around either. Stalin actually bullied Roosevelt and Churchill into D-Day demanding a second front. Putin's weakness is he doesn't have the money to back up all his trash talk.

My point is, we haven't been allied with Syria and Russia has. We don't need to be meddling their civil war anymore than we don't meddle in African civil wars. We DO need to destroy ISIS.

[aboutime]

What I find most interesting here; considering Balu, and his need to be such a staunch Russian Sheeple...is that a TURKISH jet shot down the amazing, most powerful, unchallenged since the Korean War, Russian Aircraft that violated Turkish airspace.

To look at all the Propaganda Youtubes, and stories about how GREAT the Russians, and Iranians are. I find it even funnier when I learn...Propaganda isn't even as threatening as THEY WANT US TO BELIEVE.:laugh::laugh:

[Gunny]

What I find most interesting here; considering Balu, and his need to be such a staunch Russian Sheeple...is that a TURKISH jet shot down the amazing, most powerful, unchallenged since the Korean War, Russian Aircraft that violated Turkish airspace.

To look at all the Propaganda Youtubes, and stories about how GREAT the Russians, and Iranians are. I find it even funnier when I learn...Propaganda isn't even as threatening as THEY WANT US TO BELIEVE.:laugh::laugh:

He's blowing smoke. Their planes are crap and their avionics worse. Think about it. We provide planes to foreign country allies minus the avionics. Their sh*t STILL got shot down.

[sundaydriver]

Putin has been provoking with his military for quite a while now with close fly by's of other nations military planes in international airspace and even a civilian airliner. Yes Turkey was too quick on the trigger in shooting down the Russian bomber but Turkey already had shot down 2 Russian drones in their airspace and the Syrians also had previously shot down a Turkish plane. Putin will follow his playbook of claiming this was a planned event to undermine Russia as he always does.

[Drummond]

Putin has been provoking with his military for quite a while now with close fly by's of other nations military planes in international airspace and even a civilian airliner. Yes Turkey was too quick on the trigger in shooting down the Russian bomber but Turkey already had shot down 2 Russian drones in their airspace and the Syrians also had previously shot down a Turkish plane. Putin will follow his playbook of claiming this was a planned event to undermine Russia as he always does.

I think you're to some extent arguing against yourself. You say that Turkey was 'too quick on the trigger'. Surely, the case you're making says otherwise ? Add your own description of previous Russian incursions with this incident, to this one of a Russian jet completely ignoring repeated warnings to change course out of their territory, and what you REALLY have is a country that finally decided to actively defend its border ! What's more, this was an invasion of NATO territory, and is VERY far from the first such incursion that Russia has committed against NATO-controlled airspace. I can promise you of this from a British perspective.

I think that Russia has become accustomed to getting away with such belligerence, and now, like a displeased bully, are trying to lie and bully their way back to a face-saving position. Turkey dared to not like having its airspace invaded, and, shock horror, DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT. For this, for their temerity, Russia .. 'the ally' .. now insists they pay a price.

I've heard it said that Russia, morally speaking, lives on a different planet to the rest of us. I think that's true .. theirs is a 'might is right' psychology, with absolutely nothing else mattering to them.

They're currently kicking the hell out of ISIS .. an action to be applauded, but of course. But, is the enemy of our enemy always our friend ?

[sundaydriver]

I think you're to some extent arguing against yourself. You say that Turkey was 'too quick on the trigger'. Surely, the case you're making says otherwise ? Add your own description of previous Russian incursions with this incident, to this one of a Russian jet completely ignoring repeated warnings to change course out of their territory, and what you REALLY have is a country that finally decided to actively defend its border ! What's more, this was an invasion of NATO territory, and is VERY far from the first such incursion that Russia has committed against NATO-controlled airspace. I can promise you of this from a British perspective.

I think that Russia has become accustomed to getting away with such belligerence, and now, like a displeased bully, are trying to lie and bully their way back to a face-saving position. Turkey dared to not like having its airspace invaded, and, shock horror, DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT. For this, for their temerity, Russia .. 'the ally' .. now insists they pay a price.

I've heard it said that Russia, morally speaking, lives on a different planet to the rest of us. I think that's true .. theirs is a 'might is right' psychology, with absolutely nothing else mattering to them.

They're currently kicking the hell out of ISIS .. an action to be applauded, but of course. But, is the enemy of our enemy always our friend ?

Yes even with previous provocations, Russian aircraft bombing close to the borders, and not coordinating with other combatants in the skies of Syria, I think Turkey was too quick on the trigger and wanted to send the message to Putin about interference with Turkeys agenda in Syria.

The Russian SU-24 was warned 10 times in 5 minutes but never replied and the surviving pilot said; they never received the warnings. The SU-24 does not come standard with a radio that is capable of receiving messages on the internal emergency channels in UHF or VHF unless one was installed later. Probably didn't have one, so yeah being engaged was a surprise to them.

[Gunny]

Yes even with previous provocations, Russian aircraft bombing close to the borders, and not coordinating with other combatants in the skies of Syria, I think Turkey was too quick on the trigger and wanted to send the message to Putin about interference with Turkeys agenda in Syria.

The Russian SU-24 was warned 10 times in 5 minutes but never replied and the surviving pilot said; they never received the warnings. The SU-24 does not come standard with a radio that is capable of receiving messages on the internal emergency channels in UHF or VHF unless one was installed later. Probably didn't have one, so yeah being engaged was a surprise to them.

As I stated previously, need to get their sh*t together. So far, this whole "coalition" looks like 3 fighters in a ring punching themselves in their own faces.

[Gunny]

I think you're to some extent arguing against yourself. You say that Turkey was 'too quick on the trigger'. Surely, the case you're making says otherwise ? Add your own description of previous Russian incursions with this incident, to this one of a Russian jet completely ignoring repeated warnings to change course out of their territory, and what you REALLY have is a country that finally decided to actively defend its border ! What's more, this was an invasion of NATO territory, and is VERY far from the first such incursion that Russia has committed against NATO-controlled airspace. I can promise you of this from a British perspective.

I think that Russia has become accustomed to getting away with such belligerence, and now, like a displeased bully, are trying to lie and bully their way back to a face-saving position. Turkey dared to not like having its airspace invaded, and, shock horror, DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT. For this, for their temerity, Russia .. 'the ally' .. now insists they pay a price.

I've heard it said that Russia, morally speaking, lives on a different planet to the rest of us. I think that's true .. theirs is a 'might is right' psychology, with absolutely nothing else mattering to them.

They're currently kicking the hell out of ISIS .. an action to be applauded, but of course. But, is the enemy of our enemy always our friend ?

Turkey is Turkey. Like I said, they're a trip. They are nobody's friend. Anything they do is based on self-interest. Being in NATO is based solely on self interest. Turks are as nationalistic as it comes. Same goes with Iran. Uneducated people always to "bring democracy" to people that have no concept of western so-called democracy. I don't agree with meddling in their crap. What I DO agree with is finishing what we started. All these goober countries doing their thing for political reasons under the guise of "coalition against ISIS" are accomplishing little to nothing.

There is so much political infighting no one's actually addressing the issue of the enemy.

[Drummond]

Turkey is Turkey. Like I said, they're a trip. They are nobody's friend. Anything they do is based on self-interest. Being in NATO is based solely on self interest. Turks are as nationalistic as it comes. Same goes with Iran. Uneducated people always to "bring democracy" to people that have no concept of western so-called democracy. I don't agree with meddling in their crap. What I DO agree with is finishing what we started. All these goober countries doing their thing for political reasons under the guise of "coalition against ISIS" are accomplishing little to nothing.

There is so much political infighting no one's actually addressing the issue of the enemy.

I still think I have a point, though, with .. 'is the enemy of our enemy always our friend?'

I'm no fan of Turkish interests. Why would I be ? Doesn't alter the fact that Russia has contempt for NATO borders, they've demonstrated this for many years, in many parts of the world. Now, they've become so accustomed to never seriously being challenged over it, that, when they really PAY for it, they'll lie their way out of trouble, and even bully the country they violated !!

Some 'ally', eh ?

Best of fortunes to Russia in its task of wiping out ISIS, or at least, doing whatever can be done from the air in that regard. I'm just saying: watch out for what follows afterwards.

[Drummond]

Yes even with previous provocations, Russian aircraft bombing close to the borders, and not coordinating with other combatants in the skies of Syria, I think Turkey was too quick on the trigger and wanted to send the message to Putin about interference with Turkeys agenda in Syria.

The Russian SU-24 was warned 10 times in 5 minutes but never replied and the surviving pilot said; they never received the warnings. The SU-24 does not come standard with a radio that is capable of receiving messages on the internal emergency channels in UHF or VHF unless one was installed later. Probably didn't have one, so yeah being engaged was a surprise to them.

I'm sure Turkey is aware of the Russian reputation for showing contempt for NATO borders. Why, then, would Turkey help to convince Russia that it can continue to act with that contempt ?

You're saying that the plane being flown didn't have the capability of picking up emergency broadcasts ? How about ... the jet crew didn't want to listen ? Bear in mind that the Russian line has been to say that no warnings were ever broadcast, not just that they 'didn't hear them'.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/russia-honors-pilot-killed-after-turkey-downs-aircraft-1448463406


MOSCOW—The surviving crew member of a Russian bomber downed by Turkey near the Syrian border denied his aircraft violated Turkish airspace and said Turkish jet fighters issued no warning before firing.

Capt. Konstantin Murakhtin, the navigator of the two-seater Su-24 bomber, made the comments in a briefing with Russian journalists at the country’s air force base in Latakia, where the Russian captain was recuperating after a search-and-rescue mission retrieved him from northern Syria.

Even if you're right, and the jet didn't have the capability to receive the messages sent ... that's THEIR stupid fault. Why the follow-up PUNISHMENT, when it was the Russian side which set the whole situation up ?

No, what we're seeing is belligerence from an aggressor.

[Gunny]

I still think I have a point, though, with .. 'is the enemy of our enemy always our friend?'

I'm no fan of Turkish interests. Why would I be ? Doesn't alter the fact that Russia has contempt for NATO borders, they've demonstrated this for many years, in many parts of the world. Now, they've become so accustomed to never seriously being challenged over it, that, when they really PAY for it, they'll lie their way out of trouble, and even bully the country they violated !!

Some 'ally', eh ?

Best of fortunes to Russia in its task of wiping out ISIS, or at least, doing whatever can be done from the air in that regard. I'm just saying: watch out for what follows afterwards.

I'm not disregarding your point. But what has create your point? WE have allowed Russia in, and to take the lead due to indecisive leadership and lack of action on OUR part.

[Drummond]

I'm not disregarding your point. But what has create your point? WE have allowed Russia in, and to take the lead due to indecisive leadership and lack of action on OUR part.

So true. I've no argument to offer you. I take the point that, whatever it is that's precisely driving Putin, at least he demonstrates proper, decisive leadership.

Reminds me of Libya. The story here is known to be that what action Obama did take in terms of bombings, he had to be talked into taking. David Cameron was said to have spent days phoning him up to get him to act, with Cameron getting increasingly exasperated at Obama's dithering. Even when he did act, it was a half-hearted response.

[Balu]

Russia has decided to terminate the hotline intended for the exchange of information with Turkey on extraordinary and unforeseen circumstances. This statement was made by the representative of the Kremlin, Dmitry Peskov.

[Gunny]

Russia has decided to terminate the hotline intended for the exchange of information with Turkey on extraordinary and unforeseen circumstances. This statement was made by the representative of the Kremlin, Dmitry Peskov.

Big f-ing deal. You mean kinda like since you don't like what I say you have me on ignore. That'll teach me. Now what would happen if US planes started violating Russian airspace? You'd send up your undertrained pilots in their obsolete aircraft to get shot down. Oh yeah ... that's what this thread is about.

Turkey doesn't need you. Might want to factor that in.

[Balu]

Turkey’s F-16 that downed Russian bomber was in Syrian airspace for 40 seconds

The Russian Aerospace Forces commander says the video footage of Russian bomber's crash was shot from the territory controlled by terrorists from North Caucasus and former Soviet republics

http://photocdn1.itar-tass.com/width/744_b12f2926/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20151127/1115945.jpg
Turkey’s F-16 fighter

MOSCOW, November 27. /TASS/. Turkey’s F-16 fighter that shot down the Russian Aerospace Forces’ Sukhoi Su-24M bomber was in Syria’s airspace for 40 seconds and went 2 kilometers inside its territory, while the Russian bomber did not violate the Turkish state border, the commander-in-chief of the Russian Aerospace Forces, Viktor Bondarev, said Friday.

"In line with air defense means objective control materials, the Turkish plane was in Syria’s airspace for 40 seconds and flew two kilometers inside its territory, whereas the Russian bomber did not violate the state border of Turkey," Bondarev said.
He said the crew of the second Su-24 plane confirmed the launch of the missile from the F-16. After the combat employment at the mentioned target and left turn to 130-degree course "it observed on the left side of it flame and a tail of white smoke, which it reported to the flight operations director," he said.
According to the commander, Turkey’s F-16 fighter stopped maneuvering in its duty zone and started heading to the missile launch point nearly two minutes before the maximum proximity of the Russian Su-24M bomber to the Syrian-Turkish border.
"It’s necessary to note that the fighter stopped maneuvering in the duty zone and started promptly heading to the set-forward launch point 1 minute 40 seconds prior to the maximum proximity of the Su-24M plane to the Syrian-Turkish border," Bondarev told journalists.

He said the actions of the Turkish plane after the missile launch above Syrian territory - wind-down turn with altitude loss and withdrawal under the lower limit of the air defense means target acquisition area - were treacherous and planned beforehand.
Bondarev said the Turkish fighters that attacked the Su-24M were waiting for the Russian bomber in the air. Besides, according to Russian military data, the bomber was in the Turkish Air Force’s radar stations coverage area for over 30 minutes.
According to him, during the analysis of the video recording of the air situation display, obtained from the Syrian Air Force and air defense command post, "a mark of the air target flying at a speed of 810 kmph from the direction of Turkey toward the state border on a 190-degree course was discovered."
"After the Turkish fighter’s approach with the Su-24M jet at a distance equal to the missile firing range (5-7 kilometers), which testifies to the F-16 plane being above the territory of the Syrian Arab Republic, the fighter made an aggressive maneuver to the right in descent and got lost from the screen of the air situation display," he said.
The commander also said that terrorists were informed about the plotted provocation against the Russian plane in advance.

http://cdn.itar-tass.com/fit/333x9999_4ec25037/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20151126/1115828.jpg
(http://tass.ru/en/defense/839643)
"The fact that groups of terrorists reached the site of the pilot’s landing so quickly and that the video of the incident was posted on the internet in a span of 90 minutes proves that the terrorists had been informed in advance about the plotted provocation so that it could be video recorded and posted in social networks," he said.
Bondarev also noted that the video footage of Russian bomber's crash was shot from the territory controlled by terrorists from North Caucasus and former Soviet republics. He also noted that the person shooting the video knew the time and place of the attack in advance.
"The shot angle makes it possible to define the exact place. It is located in a territory held by radical terrorist groups from the North Caucasus or the former Soviet republics. The cameraman knew the exact time and place from it would be possible to make exclusive shots," Bondarev said.
According to him, the Turkish media’s readiness to cover the incident was amazingly surprising. The general recalled that the Russian jet was hit at 10:24 on November 25. A private Turkish TV company posted the video 90 minutes later.
"The prompt appearance of terrorist gangs at the landing place and the video’s publication in the Internet 90 minutes after the incident proves that the terrorists had been informed of the forthcoming provocation in advance with an aim to shoot everything on a video and place the materials in social networks," Bondarev stressed.
The facts, the general went on to say, are pointing to a pre-planned action designed to destroy the Russian plane and later cover the incident in social networks.
The Turkish Air Force’s F-16 fighter on November 24 shot down a Russian Sukhoi Su-24M bomber that Ankara claims violated the country’s airspace on the border with Syria. The Su-24M crew ejected but one of the two pilots was killed by fire from the ground. The second pilot was rescued as a result of a 12-hour operation. During evacuation of the Su-24M crew, a Mi-8 helicopter was lost and a contract marine was killed.
Russia’s Defense Ministry said the Su-24M was above Syrian territory and "there was no violation of Turkey’s airspace." It said the Turkish Air Force fighter violated Syria’s airspace.

http://cdn.itar-tass.com/fit/333x9999_4ec25037/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20151126/1115822.jpg (http://tass.ru/en/defense/839633)

To protect Russian aircraft in Syria, state-of-the-art S-400 air defense systems, whose killing range reaches 400 kilometers, were redeployed to the Khmeimim airbase. Besides, the Russian missile cruiser Moskva equipped with the Fort air defense system (sea version of S-300) approached the Syrian coast.
Russia’s Defense Ministry warned that Russian strike aircraft will from now on be escorted by fighters during sorties, while all potentially dangerous targets will be destroyed.
Russian President Vladimir Putin has warned that Turkey’s attack will have "serious consequences" for Russian-Turkish relations.
Russia’s Aerospace Forces started delivering pinpoint strikes in Syria at facilities of the Islamic State and Jabhat al-Nusra terrorist organizations, which are banned in Russia, on September 30, 2015, on a request from Syrian President Bashar Assad.

http://cdn.itar-tass.com/fit/333x9999_4ec25037/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20151124/1115386.jpg (http://tass.ru/en/defense/838723)

The air group initially comprised over 50 aircraft and helicopters, including Sukhoi Su-24M, Su-25SM and state-of-the-art Su-34 aircraft. They were redeployed to the Khmeimim airbase in the province of Latakia.
On October 7, four missile ships of the Russian Navy’s Caspian Flotilla fired 26 Kalibr cruise missiles (NATO codename Sizzler) at militants’ facilities in Syria. On October 8, the Syrian army passed to a large-scale offensive.
In mid-November, Russia increased the number of aircraft taking part in the operation in Syria to 69 and involved strategic bombers in strikes at militants.

[Gunny]

Turkey’s F-16 that downed Russian bomber was in Syrian airspace for 40 seconds

The Russian Aerospace Forces commander says the video footage of Russian bomber's crash was shot from the territory controlled by terrorists from North Caucasus and former Soviet republics

http://photocdn1.itar-tass.com/width/744_b12f2926/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20151127/1115945.jpg
Turkey’s F-16 fighter

MOSCOW, November 27. /TASS/. Turkey’s F-16 fighter that shot down the Russian Aerospace Forces’ Sukhoi Su-24M bomber was in Syria’s airspace for 40 seconds and went 2 kilometers inside its territory, while the Russian bomber did not violate the Turkish state border, the commander-in-chief of the Russian Aerospace Forces, Viktor Bondarev, said Friday.

"In line with air defense means objective control materials, the Turkish plane was in Syria’s airspace for 40 seconds and flew two kilometers inside its territory, whereas the Russian bomber did not violate the state border of Turkey," Bondarev said.
He said the crew of the second Su-24 plane confirmed the launch of the missile from the F-16. After the combat employment at the mentioned target and left turn to 130-degree course "it observed on the left side of it flame and a tail of white smoke, which it reported to the flight operations director," he said.
According to the commander, Turkey’s F-16 fighter stopped maneuvering in its duty zone and started heading to the missile launch point nearly two minutes before the maximum proximity of the Russian Su-24M bomber to the Syrian-Turkish border.
"It’s necessary to note that the fighter stopped maneuvering in the duty zone and started promptly heading to the set-forward launch point 1 minute 40 seconds prior to the maximum proximity of the Su-24M plane to the Syrian-Turkish border," Bondarev told journalists.

He said the actions of the Turkish plane after the missile launch above Syrian territory - wind-down turn with altitude loss and withdrawal under the lower limit of the air defense means target acquisition area - were treacherous and planned beforehand.
Bondarev said the Turkish fighters that attacked the Su-24M were waiting for the Russian bomber in the air. Besides, according to Russian military data, the bomber was in the Turkish Air Force’s radar stations coverage area for over 30 minutes.
According to him, during the analysis of the video recording of the air situation display, obtained from the Syrian Air Force and air defense command post, "a mark of the air target flying at a speed of 810 kmph from the direction of Turkey toward the state border on a 190-degree course was discovered."
"After the Turkish fighter’s approach with the Su-24M jet at a distance equal to the missile firing range (5-7 kilometers), which testifies to the F-16 plane being above the territory of the Syrian Arab Republic, the fighter made an aggressive maneuver to the right in descent and got lost from the screen of the air situation display," he said.
The commander also said that terrorists were informed about the plotted provocation against the Russian plane in advance.

http://cdn.itar-tass.com/fit/333x9999_4ec25037/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20151126/1115828.jpg
(http://tass.ru/en/defense/839643)
"The fact that groups of terrorists reached the site of the pilot’s landing so quickly and that the video of the incident was posted on the internet in a span of 90 minutes proves that the terrorists had been informed in advance about the plotted provocation so that it could be video recorded and posted in social networks," he said.
Bondarev also noted that the video footage of Russian bomber's crash was shot from the territory controlled by terrorists from North Caucasus and former Soviet republics. He also noted that the person shooting the video knew the time and place of the attack in advance.
"The shot angle makes it possible to define the exact place. It is located in a territory held by radical terrorist groups from the North Caucasus or the former Soviet republics. The cameraman knew the exact time and place from it would be possible to make exclusive shots," Bondarev said.
According to him, the Turkish media’s readiness to cover the incident was amazingly surprising. The general recalled that the Russian jet was hit at 10:24 on November 25. A private Turkish TV company posted the video 90 minutes later.
"The prompt appearance of terrorist gangs at the landing place and the video’s publication in the Internet 90 minutes after the incident proves that the terrorists had been informed of the forthcoming provocation in advance with an aim to shoot everything on a video and place the materials in social networks," Bondarev stressed.
The facts, the general went on to say, are pointing to a pre-planned action designed to destroy the Russian plane and later cover the incident in social networks.
The Turkish Air Force’s F-16 fighter on November 24 shot down a Russian Sukhoi Su-24M bomber that Ankara claims violated the country’s airspace on the border with Syria. The Su-24M crew ejected but one of the two pilots was killed by fire from the ground. The second pilot was rescued as a result of a 12-hour operation. During evacuation of the Su-24M crew, a Mi-8 helicopter was lost and a contract marine was killed.
Russia’s Defense Ministry said the Su-24M was above Syrian territory and "there was no violation of Turkey’s airspace." It said the Turkish Air Force fighter violated Syria’s airspace.

http://cdn.itar-tass.com/fit/333x9999_4ec25037/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20151126/1115822.jpg (http://tass.ru/en/defense/839633)

To protect Russian aircraft in Syria, state-of-the-art S-400 air defense systems, whose killing range reaches 400 kilometers, were redeployed to the Khmeimim airbase. Besides, the Russian missile cruiser Moskva equipped with the Fort air defense system (sea version of S-300) approached the Syrian coast.
Russia’s Defense Ministry warned that Russian strike aircraft will from now on be escorted by fighters during sorties, while all potentially dangerous targets will be destroyed.
Russian President Vladimir Putin has warned that Turkey’s attack will have "serious consequences" for Russian-Turkish relations.
Russia’s Aerospace Forces started delivering pinpoint strikes in Syria at facilities of the Islamic State and Jabhat al-Nusra terrorist organizations, which are banned in Russia, on September 30, 2015, on a request from Syrian President Bashar Assad.

http://cdn.itar-tass.com/fit/333x9999_4ec25037/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20151124/1115386.jpg (http://tass.ru/en/defense/838723)

The air group initially comprised over 50 aircraft and helicopters, including Sukhoi Su-24M, Su-25SM and state-of-the-art Su-34 aircraft. They were redeployed to the Khmeimim airbase in the province of Latakia.
On October 7, four missile ships of the Russian Navy’s Caspian Flotilla fired 26 Kalibr cruise missiles (NATO codename Sizzler) at militants’ facilities in Syria. On October 8, the Syrian army passed to a large-scale offensive.
In mid-November, Russia increased the number of aircraft taking part in the operation in Syria to 69 and involved strategic bombers in strikes at militants.

Hate to point out the obvious, but Syria currently doesn't have any airspace.

[Balu]

Putin approves economic sanctions against Turkey following downing of Russian warplane

<time class="date date_article-header">Published time: 28 Nov, 2015 17:38</time>



https://cdn.rt.com/files/2015.11/original/5659e90ec3618850468b458b.jpg


Russian President Vladimir Putin has signed a decree imposing a package of economic sanctions against Turkey following its downing of a Russian Su-24 bomber in Syria. The measures include banning several Turkish organizations and the import of certain goods.

A decree on "measures providing the national security of the Russian Federation and the protection of its citizens against criminal and other unlawful acts, and on imposing special economic measures in relation to Turkish Republic" was signed on Saturday, the Kremlin press service said.
Under the decree, the import of certain products originating from Turkey will be temporarily banned or restricted.
A number of Turkish organizations operating in Russia will also be restricted.

Employers in Russia will be prohibited from hiring Turkish nationals for work starting January 1, 2016.
The ban will touch upon only new workers, the decree said, adding that employees who already officially hired as of December 31, 2015 will not fall subject to the sanctions.
The president has directed the government to introduce a ban on charter flights between Russia and Turkey. Russian travel agencies have been advised to stop selling tours to Turkey, the Kremlin announced.
The government has also been tasked with enhancing security control at Russian ports in the Sea of Azov and Black Sea. The illegal presence and movement of Turkish vessels near to the sea ports must be prevented, the decree said.


Bringing Turkish products into Russia for personal use will not be restricted, the decree said.
The visa-free regime for Turkish nationals traveling to Russia will be suspended starting from 2016, the decree signed by the Russian leader says.
It will not affect those who have residence permits, as well as Turkish diplomats working in Turkish embassies and consulates on the territory of Russia, and their families.
A list of contracts not to be affected by the new economic measures will be compiled by the Cabinet, the Kremlin said in its Saturday statement.
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[Gunny]

Putin approves economic sanctions against Turkey following downing of Russian warplane

<time class="date date_article-header">Published time: 28 Nov, 2015 17:38</time>



https://cdn.rt.com/files/2015.11/original/5659e90ec3618850468b458b.jpg


Russian President Vladimir Putin has signed a decree imposing a package of economic sanctions against Turkey following its downing of a Russian Su-24 bomber in Syria. The measures include banning several Turkish organizations and the import of certain goods.

A decree on "measures providing the national security of the Russian Federation and the protection of its citizens against criminal and other unlawful acts, and on imposing special economic measures in relation to Turkish Republic" was signed on Saturday, the Kremlin press service said.
Under the decree, the import of certain products originating from Turkey will be temporarily banned or restricted.
A number of Turkish organizations operating in Russia will also be restricted.

Employers in Russia will be prohibited from hiring Turkish nationals for work starting January 1, 2016.
The ban will touch upon only new workers, the decree said, adding that employees who already officially hired as of December 31, 2015 will not fall subject to the sanctions.
The president has directed the government to introduce a ban on charter flights between Russia and Turkey. Russian travel agencies have been advised to stop selling tours to Turkey, the Kremlin announced.
The government has also been tasked with enhancing security control at Russian ports in the Sea of Azov and Black Sea. The illegal presence and movement of Turkish vessels near to the sea ports must be prevented, the decree said.


Bringing Turkish products into Russia for personal use will not be restricted, the decree said.
The visa-free regime for Turkish nationals traveling to Russia will be suspended starting from 2016, the decree signed by the Russian leader says.
It will not affect those who have residence permits, as well as Turkish diplomats working in Turkish embassies and consulates on the territory of Russia, and their families.
A list of contracts not to be affected by the new economic measures will be compiled by the Cabinet, the Kremlin said in its Saturday statement.
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Who gives a fuck? Remember this?


Francis Gary Powers (August 17, 1929 – August 1, 1977) – often referred to as simply Gary Powers – was an American pilot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviator) whose Central Intelligence Agency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Intelligence_Agency)[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Gary_Powers#cite_note-1) U-2 spy plane (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U-2) was shot down while flying a reconnaissance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconnaissance) mission over Soviet Union airspace (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspace), causing the 1960 U-2 incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_U-2_incident).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Gary_Powers

Guess it's all different when it's you. :rolleyes:

[Balu]

Aerospace Force's mission in Syria more effective than American - press secretaryDmitry Peskov also said that the Russian and French military have been discussing already an action plan for Syria



http://cdn.itar-tass.com/width/744_b12f2926/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20151128/1115986.jpg
Russia’s presidential press secretary Dmitry Peskov


VLADIVOSTOK, November 28. /TASS/. The mission of the Russian Aerospace Force in Syria is more effective in quality than the U.S. mission, Russia’s presidential press secretary Dmitry Peskov said in an interview with the Vesti V Subbotu (News on Saturday) television programme.
"The territory, controlled by terrorists is shrinking (over the time of the Russian mission)," he said. "This proves the mission is qualitatively different. It is more effective. Those are not conclusions of political analysts, but the reality, which may be announced."
He called an "undeniable fact" result of the U.S.-led coalition’s actions, which had been in Iraq and in Syria for 15 months.
"Unfortunately, that mission, which lasted for over a year, has resulted in bigger territories controlled by IS (Islamic State)," he said. "It is for the first time now, thanks to the mission of the Russian Aerospace Force, which is not that long yet, the tendency has changed radically".
Russian, French military discuss action plan in SyriaThe Russian and French military have been discussing already an action plan for Syria, though it is too early yet to announce the coalition is ready to cooperate, said Russia’s presidential press secretary Dmitry Peskov.
The Russian side keeps the door open for any cooperation acceptable for the U.S.-led coalition, he said, adding "as yet, we cannot see, say, mutual readiness."
He continued saying some countries had chosen to leave now the "pressing position" demanding an immediate resignation of Bashar Assad.
"Now that most Syrian territory is controlled by IS, Nusra and other terrorist organisations, it seems unrealistic to organise whatever elections," the press secretary said. "Nor realistic are talks about a political settlement. The only force on the ground, which is fighting terrorism, is the Syrian Armed Forces".
Russia is adamant about territory integrity of Middle East countriesRussia is for territory and political integrity of the Middle East countries, presidential press secretary Dmitry Peskov told.
"You know, it is a very sensitive region, and thus inarguable provision is to remain - the territory and political integrity of all the countries in the region: both Syria, and Turkey, and Iraq," he said. "Otherwise, the consequences may be catastrophic for the region, which actually neighbours our borders."
The anchorman said about various political and ethnic groups acting in the region, including, for example, the Kurdish militia.
"The Kurdish militia, well, in fact they are fighting most effectively both in northern Iraq, and fighting effectively the Islamic State (a terrorist group outlawed in Russia)," Peskov said. "They are a more realistic force in fighting IS than the ephemeral Free Syrian Army."
The presidential press secretary preferred to leave unanswered a question from the anchorman whether Russia should intensify contacts with the Kurds.
"Here, I have said everything I could," Peskov replied.

[Balu]

Chechnya’s leader says Turkey provides assistance to terroristsRussian Politics & Diplomacy (http://tass.ru/en/politics)
November 28, 21:47 UTC+3 GROZNY
Kadyrov noted that in the 19th century Turkey cheated by inviting tens of thousands of Chechens and then welcomed them with severe living conditions



http://photocdn1.itar-tass.com/width/744_b12f2926/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20151128/1115987.jpg
Leader of republic of Chechnya Ramzan Kadyrov© Mikhail Klimentyev/press-service of the Russian president/TASS

GROZNY, November 28. /TASS/. Leader of the Russian North Caucasus republic of Chechnya Ramzan Kadyrov has accused Turkey of assistance to terrorists and refuted the allegations that the Turkish always provided help to the Chechens.
"I have been an object for reproaches that I am against Islam and am supporting the infidels," Kadyrov said on a social network on Saturday.
"I love facts so I am asking a question: when, where and how has Turkey helped Chechnya and my people? Show me a single school, a hospital, a kindergarten or a mosque built as a gift to Chechnya! Give me one example!" Chechnya’s head asked rhetorically. "Yes, you have helped the Wahhabis, terrorists and raised money for them. You gave medical treatment and holiday-making accommodation to [the terrorists like] Udugov, Umarov and Basayev. They and their accomplices used to organise terror acts and kill Chechens. Is this your help?"
Kadyrov noted that in the 19th century Turkey cheated by inviting tens of thousands of Chechens and then welcomed them with severe living conditions. Five years later, half of them died while attempts to return to homeland "were cut short by gunfire."
"Nowadays Turkey has become a base for recruitment and dispatch of terrorists to Syria," Kadyrov said. "Bandits from all over the world are passing via Turkey. But the very few are detained. Turkey does not struggle against the ISIS (former name for the so-called Islamic State terrorist organisation outlawed in Russia)! The country does business with them, buys oil and allocates money to Islam foes that kill thousands of Muslims. What is more! Who backed the authors of caricatures on the Prophet in Paris? And I condemned in a very tough manner the magazine and gathered over a million of people in Grozny who voiced a resolute protest heard around the world."
Kadyrov said that even if "the Earth burns to ashes" he would not make a single step against Islam. He pledges to be the Wahhabis’ enemy and says has sworn to fight against them throughout his lifetime.
"Russia is home to 30 million Muslims," he said. "It is our Fatherland! And the downed plane is ours! And the pilot is ours! And you know that Russia is home to millions of Muslims. Then why did you shoot down our plane? Why did you murder our pilot who fought against ISIS protecting the Muslims? And because of your consent and indulgence the West has destroyed Iraq, Syria and Libya. Now tell me what are your reasons to blame me of being against Islam? I am a defender of Islam! While the Turkish leadership goes on helping to destroy Islamic states and peoples."

The downing of Russian Su-24 bomber by Turkey


An F-16 fighter jet from the Turkish Air Force shot down a Russian Su-24M bomber on Tuesday. Ankara claims the Su-24M bomber violated the Turkish air space in the area of the border with Syria.

However, Russia’s Defence Ministry has said the Su-24M plane stayed exclusively over the Syrian territory and "there was no violation of the Turkish air space."(1)

Russian President Vladimir Putin has warned that the attack on the bomber will have "serious consequences" for the Russian-Turkish relations. According to Putin, the Turkish Air Force’s attack on the Russian combat plane that took part in the operation against terrorists in Syria and posed no threat to Turkey is a "stab in the back of Russia."
The crew of the Su-24M bomber managed to eject but one of the pilots was killed by gunfire from the ground. The second pilot was rescued and taken to the Russian air base.
Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Thursday that Turkey was steering the relations into the gridlock as it neither apologised, nor offered to repair the damage, nor promised to punish those responsible,
In an interview with CNN, Erdogan warned Moscow that Turkey would take steps if its warplane was downed by the Russian S-400 missile system in case of violation of the Syrian airspace.
"I think if there is a party that needs to apologize, it is not us," he said. "Those who violated our airspace are the ones who need to apologize.".

1. The Turkish Foreign Ministry refused to provide records from radars and records of negotiations pilots of Turkish F-16 to summoned military attache of the Russian Federation.

[Balu]

To be noted.

With the advent of S-400 in Syria, the situation has become qualitatively different. The fact that the controls included in the S-400 are capable of handing targeting Russian complexes of "younger" generation: the S-300, air defense missile systems SA-11 Gadfly, SA-15 Gauntlet , SA-22 Greyhound .
All these Syria obtains.
Bad news for the coalition is that the already not weak air defense system of Syria is now multiply its efficiency. Since, in fact, it is integrated into a single complex with air defense complexes SA-N-6 Grumble of cruiser "Moskva" and land S-400 "Triumph". :croc:

[Drummond]

Balu .. I'm still waiting for this 'proof' Putin was said to have had, that Turkish airspace was never violated.

All I'm currently seeing from you, instead, is what adds up to a 'might is right' message. Do you really think this is all that counts ?

[Gunny]

Is this guy the Russian version of Goebbels, or what?

[aboutime]

Since nothing Putin says, does, or thinks can ever be wrong (according to you). We Americans have Putin to thank for teaching our Democrat/Socialist members of Congress, and our wannabe President...HOW TO LIE.

It is an easily identifiable TRAIT that our pretender-in-chief admires about your Putin Wussy.

[Gunny]

Since nothing Putin says, does, or thinks can ever be wrong (according to you). We Americans have Putin to thank for teaching our Democrat/Socialist members of Congress, and our wannabe President...HOW TO LIE.

It is an easily identifiable TRAIT that our pretender-in-chief admires about your Putin Wussy.

I don't know that O-blah-blah admires Putin. Putin's not progressive-left enough. I think O-blah-blah's just scared sh*tless of him.